Tattva-viveka
human sacrifice and other issues as mentioned in bhagvatam
Vivek - February 26, 2007 3:14 am
I just had a question, how do we fit the human sacrifice which is mentioned in the bhagavatam in the scriptural canon. I mean what is the spiritual justification in it. As from Srimad bhagavatam 9.7.20 and next few verses"listed below translation and purport show that slave trade and animal sacrifice existed not just for outcastes but for kings too for millions of years. Also like kings were required sometimes to give the maidservants of their wives some children as well. Most ISKCON devotees have the idea that meat eating was zero in vedic times(only in kali yuga it started) and everyone including the sudras were following 4 regulatory principles which is not the case certainly. So when non-devotees(or fallen karmis as devotees favourite term) give some evidence from vedas about meat eating or wine the devotees blast them saying it is nowhere in the scripture. Devotees fail to see that many times in bhagavatam itself even visvamitra muni eating dogs in adverse circumstances is described by prabhupada. My question is after all these references how can we convince others that you have to vegetarian to be God conscious. In some ways kali yuga may be good with less slave trade and human sacrifice, some people may argue. I just wanted an objective way of answering the problem based on our scriputures. Like Maharaja said we shouldn't just try to impose everything in vedic times now and instead see some value in good things of present age also when presenting to people.
9.7.20
Thereafter, in the sixth year, after wandering in the forest, Rohita returned to the capital of his father. He purchased from Ajigarta his second son, named Sunahsepha. Then he offered Sunahsepha to his father, Hariscandra, to be used as the sacrificial animal and offered Hariscandra his respectful obeisances.
PURPORT
It appears that in those days a man could be purchased for any purpose. Hariscandra was in need of a person to sacrifice as the animal in a yajna and thus fulfill his promise to Varuna, and a man was purchased from another man for this purpose. Millions of years ago, animal sacrifice and slave trade both existed. Indeed, they have existed since time immemorial.
Vrindavandas - February 26, 2007 6:35 am
Typically in other yugas, fire sacrifices were performed for various reasons. The way it was taught to me was that the priests who performed the sacrifices were very expert at the mantras and when the object of sacrifice (in many cases horse) went through the fire, they came out with a new body. So, you kind of have to understand the context and unique situations that these sacrifices occurred. Personally, I think that you can argue a strong point for vegetarianism regardless of what type of activities happened in other yugas. From a medical perspective, there are countless websites, books and documents that could arm you with all the information you needed regarding the benefits of vegetarianism. The first thing I think is to evaluate where you stand with Krishna Consciousness, vegetarianism, etc in your own heart before you go out and preach to others. Guru Maharaja says that preaching should be the overflow of your own practice and realizations. From your post here and previous posts, I am not sure your faith is completely settled with the principles of Krishna Consciousness. I could be misinterpreting your posts, and if I am forgive me. Aside from that, when I was an active book distributor, my main book that I pushed was Higher Taste. If you haven't read it, it might help you clear up any doubts or insecurities you have regarding vegetarianism and spiritual life. Ultimately, people will be convinced by your passion and what you believe to be true. When that gets adjusted properly, I think you will see that for any argument someone throws out at you, you will find ample information and ammunition regardless of the subject matter. 
Vivek - February 26, 2007 6:48 am
Thank you for reply vrindavan prabhu. But i dont have any problem with being vegetarian myself or the utility of vegetarianism(i have been follwing for 8-9 years now). I am just trying to understand the context of references of these quotes to explain them better to people who have some exposure to vedas already.
Vrindavandas - February 26, 2007 3:46 pm
I wouldn't worry so much about it then. Like I said, Higher Taste is sufficient to engage in a very lively discussion regarding spirituality and vegetarianism. In regards to sacrifice and the Vedas, in 15 years of actively being involved in the KC movement, I have never come across anyone who has thrown something like that my way. The strangest objections I ever received were from a Chabad Rabbi 11 years ago. He was very offensive in his statements and assumptions and refused to debate on any type of civil grounds. (Fortunately, by Krishna's arrangement, he was removed from his position never to be heard from again.) Just keep chanting, reading the books and listening to Guru Maharaja's cds, and everything will be nice.
Bhrigu - February 26, 2007 3:57 pm
Another thing to consider is that not everything that went on during the so-called Vedic times was Krishna conscious. It is quite obvious that there was slavery in ancient India (one wonders if there is any ancient civilisation that didn't have), and there has been human sacrifices in India up to modern times. If we were trying to recreate this ancient Vedic civilisation, we would have to think about these things from different angles of vision, but we really aren't, so we don't need to bother about it. Did Sri Caitanya or the Goswamis advocate slavery or human sacrifices? If not, neither need we.
Swami - February 26, 2007 4:02 pm
Yes, there are so many modern, reasonable arguments in favor of vegetarianism. As for the Vedc times and the Bhagavata, their essence is Mahaprabhu Sri Krsna Caitanya. This is Caitanya Era. He agrued against meat eating and the idea of outcastes with regard to that which is important and esentially spiritaul. He improved the status of women, etc. As he was a reformer so to should we be. We are not interested in resurecting an ancinet culture, but rather establishing an essentially spiritual one.
Tadiya Dasi - February 26, 2007 5:54 pm
Vivek,
Dandavats.
Studying the Scriptures can be a tricky thing. It's the tendency of the mind to want to make "sense" of everything - and in the guise of "trying to make sense of things", the mind can - and often does - confuse us and even distracts us from the essence of the Scriptures. In the case of SB - it's all about Radha's love for Krishna.
However, in pointing this out, I'm in no way suggesting that it's wrong to question things or to wonder when we read something disturbing from the Scriptures. But it's our task - as sadhakas - to learn to use our intelligence for the service of the Lord, and not allow the tyrant of the mind to work against us and our tender faith. It IS a difficult task - to understand the Bhagavatam.
What I'm trying to say is that I have spent too much time allowing my mind to dictate what's "possible" and what I can therefore "accept". Please don't make the same mistake.
Our Scriptures - just like so many other Scriptures such as the Bible for example - contain some "cultural baggage". But when you look at the under currents of love of God that all sacred text have, you will find that it's not worth of your precious time to get "hung up" on some particular verses that do not make sense to you. And if all sacred text have this, what I call the "under currents of love of God" - how much more does the Bhagavatam have such a current of love within it's pages. It's practically a flood of love coming from the SB towards the reader :Praying: Such is the nature of literature in praise of Sri Krishna - "it swells the sea of blessedness" and "bathes the self in all respects".
(and please don't think that I'm in any way belittling your concern - I just wanted to point out my own experience in this matter. It's not always very "sensible" to try to make sense out of things with your intellect only. The Srimad Bhagavatam, after all, is trying to guide us to see things from the vantage point of loving devotion instead of our material sense of self, which is always deluded and confused and "hung up on the externals" all the while missing the essence - love of God.)
Vivek - February 26, 2007 5:54 pm
Thank you Maharaja. You exactly spoke what i thought, exclusive use of vedic sastra to impose things in todays time may boomerang and that was my point. Otherwise, We had even organized a seminar on vegetarianism and spirituality in our college, giving about 50 reasons in support of vegetarianism!
Tadiya Dasi - February 26, 2007 6:00 pm
And, oh, Vivek - my post wasn't directed at you personally, necessarely. It's just some thoughts (my usual rambling! :Praying: ) in general about trying to understand the Scriptures.