Tattva-viveka
Questions from Jaiva-dharma, chapter 15
Bhrigu - April 2, 2007 5:50 pm
We have resumed our Jaiva-dharma meetings here in Finland, and while reading the chapter on jiva-tattva last Saturday, some questions arose that we couldn't figure out within the group.
On pages 360-361 (NM hardbound ed.) Babaji says that Baladeva manifests the nitya-mukta-parsada-jivas who serve Krishna, Sankarsana manifests “eight types of servants to render eight kinds of services” as eternally liberated associates of Narayana, and that the Paramatma manifests the jivas of the material world, who then choose between Krishna and Maya.
Four questions arise from this:
1) what are the 8 types of servants with 8 kinds of service in Vaikuntha?
2) Is it only Radha and the sakhis that are manifestations of the hladini sakti, all the other parsadas in Goloka being jiva-tattva coming from Baladeva?
3) Are these three classes of jivas -- those coming from Baladeva, Sankarsana and Paramatma -- all that there are, or are there even more? And what is Bhaktivinoda's pramana for this division?
4) How can these parsadas (classes 1 & 2 above) be called jiva-tattva when they are not tatastha-sakti, since they have never been in a marginal position but always in Goloka/ Vaikuntha?
Vivek - April 3, 2007 12:29 am
We have resumed our Jaiva-dharma meetings here in Finland, and while reading the chapter on jiva-tattva last Saturday, some questions arose that we couldn't figure out within the group.
On pages 360-361 (NM hardbound ed.) Babaji says that Baladeva manifests the nitya-mukta-parsada-jivas who serve Krishna, Sankarsana manifests “eight types of servants to render eight kinds of services” as eternally liberated associates of Narayana, and that the Paramatma manifests the jivas of the material world, who then choose between Krishna and Maya.
Four questions arise from this:
1) what are the 8 types of servants with 8 kinds of service in Vaikuntha?
2) Is it only Radha and the sakhis that are manifestations of the hladini sakti, all the other parsadas in Goloka being jiva-tattva coming from Baladeva?
3) Are these three classes of jivas -- those coming from Baladeva, Sankarsana and Paramatma -- all that there are, or are there even more? And what is Bhaktivinoda's pramana for this division?
4) How can these parsadas (classes 1 & 2 above) be called jiva-tattva when they are not tatastha-sakti, since they have never been in a marginal position but always in Goloka/ Vaikuntha?
This is the only reference I know of the tatasta sakti
Caitanya Caritamrita Adi lila 5.45 states jiva-nama tatasthakhya eka sakti haya
maha-sankarsana--saba jivera asraya
"There is one marginal potency, known as the jiva. Maha-sankarsana is the shelter of all jivas."
Also as far as I know some nitya siddhas are constituted of tatastha sakti though they can never come under the influence of maya sakti. So there are different kinds of tatastha-sakti jivas the nitya siddha jivas and nitya baddha jivas and only the nitya baddha jivas can come under maya sakti. As far as the definition problem you cited (i.e why they are called jiva tattva) as far as know it is because once the baddha jiva goes under influence of svarupa sakti he is like a nitya siddha jiva, there is no difference between the two. Hence after coming under svarupa sakti even the nitya baddha jiva can never come under maya sakti. (please correct me if i am wrong)
I am unable to know about 8 kinds of service but they may be related to different aspects of dasya rasa like becoming ornaments, paraphenelia, etc.
And lastly i never really found any sastric evidence of jivas coming from baladeva, sankarsana and paramatma except for sastras of gaudiya vaisnavism. And as far as krsna has revealed there are only the three types of jivas cited above but maybe there are more as krsna is infinite and what we know about krsna maybe still not complete, he is too infinite to be completly known.
Swami - April 5, 2007 1:19 pm
sei maya avalokite sri-sankarsana
purusa-rupe avatirna ha-ila prathama
"To glance over that material energy and empower her, Lord Sankarsana first incarnates as Lord Maha-Visnu."
This Mahavisnu is also sometimes referred to as Sankarsana, as Garbhodaksayi and Ksirodaksayi are referred to and identified with Pradyumna and Aniruddha becasue they are their expansions for the sristi-lila. The verse Viveka cited thus applies to Mahavisnu as well as Maha Sankarsana of Vaikuntha in terms of their both being the source of jivas. Otherwise there are numerous references beginning with the sruti explaing how Mahavisnu generates jivas in connection with his glancing at material nature. So you have references to the generation of jivas in Vaikuntha and Devi Dhama.
Regarding Baladeva (who is the origin of the catur vyuha and the purusas) generating souls in Goloka, this is the function of the sandhini sakti over which he presides: to manifest the dhama. Such manifestation inludes the dhama's principle players, Nanda, Yasoda, etc. (including Sri Krsna's form) Balarama presides of vatsalya, sakhya, dasya and santa rasa in Goloka. Sri Radha's kaya-vyuha her own expansions for madhurya rasa. But all of the players are constituted of sandhini, samvit, and haladhini. Furthermore, Subala and principle palyers in the lila manifest souls for the purpose of pastimes. You have to go there.
I am not sure exctly what BVT is referring to, but at least in Goloka eithgt types of seva is oftena reference to the asta kala lila (eightfold lila in consideration of eight divisions of time). There are also eight perfections found in liberated souls of Vaikuntha.
Vivek - April 5, 2007 2:56 pm
Thank you Maharaja, but does sruti sastra have any reference to balarama being source of catur vyuha and the details of the order of expansions which is pertaining to gaudiya theology?
Bhrigu - April 5, 2007 7:30 pm
Thank you for the answers, Guru Maharaja, but I still don't see why the manifestations coming from Baladeva can be called tatastha-sakti or jivas. And how does Baladeva manifest Krishna's form? Wouldn't that make Krishna and his form different? 
Swami - April 5, 2007 10:00 pm
Thank you for the answers, Guru Maharaja, but I still don't see why the manifestations coming from Baladeva can be called tatastha-sakti or jivas. And how does Baladeva manifest Krishna's form? Wouldn't that make Krishna and his form different?
The idea is that Sri Krsna's form is a manifestation of the sandhini skati over which Balarama presides. About all of this BVT writes,
By the influence of the Lord's three energies (spiritual, marginal, and material), the spiritual world, the living entities, and the material world have been created. Within each of the three energies, we find three separate propensities called sandhini, samvit, and hladini.
By the interaction of the spiritual potency and the sandhini propensity, all kinds of spiritual opulences such as the spiritual abode, spiritual forms, and spiritual paraphernalia manifest. The names, forms, qualities, and pastimes of Krsna are the work of sandhini. By the interaction of the spiritual potency with the samvit propensity, all spiritual sentiments manifest. By the interaction of the spiritual potency with the hladini propensity, the cultivation of ecstatic love manifests.
By the interaction of the marginal potency and the sandhini propensity, spiritual existence and the names and abode of the living entities manifest. By the interaction of the marginal potency with the samvit propensity, impersonal knowledge manifests. By the interaction of the marginal potency with the hladini propensity, happiness derived from merging into Brahman manifests as well as the happiness of trance attained through astanga yoga or the happiness of being one with the Lord.
By the interaction of the material potency with the sandhini propensity, the material universe (consisting of fourteen worlds, the gross and subtle bodies of the conditioned souls, their attainment of the heavenly planets and their material senses) has been created. The material name, form, qualities, and activities of the conditioned soul are also the result of this interaction. By the interaction of the material potency with the samvit propensity, the conditioned souls' thought, desire, imagination, and concepts are manifest. By the interaction of the material potency with the hladini propensity, gross material pleasure and subtle heavenly pleasure manifest.
(Sri Manah-siksa Verse 4)
Prabhupada wrires in Cc, "The sandhini portion of Sri Krsna’s internal potency has manifested the all-attractive form of Sri Krsna." See Sat-sandarbha for more.
Sri Krsna's form is the rupa-satta of the sandhini sakti, his names are the abhidha-satta of the sandhini sakti. Remember, Krsnas sandhini sakti is just that: it is his. These are a few points to consider regarding Sri Krsna's form.
When the tatatstha sakti interacts with the svarupa sakti without having interacted peviously with the maya sakti, it manifests as nitya siddha jivas. In one sense any living being can be referred to as a jiva, a unit of life. There are of course other associates of Bhagavan who are manifestatons of his svarupa sakti that do not involve his tatastha sakti. At least from the language of BVT there appear to be both types.
Bhrigu - April 6, 2007 1:38 pm
My head is spinning! 
I will have to give all of this more thought, but for the moment I find this concept of Krishna's form difficult to understand. Is this explained in the Krishna-sandarbha, or where?