What are the most signifigant differences between suhrt-sakhas and priya-sakhas?
What are the most signifigant differences between suhrt-sakhas and priya-sakhas?
The influence of vatsalya (suhrt-sakha) and its absence (priya-sakha) is the main difference.
The influence of vatsalya (suhrt-sakha) and its absence (priya-sakha) is the main difference.
So it's the level of affection that makes the diference? Is this vatsalya paternal or fraternal?
Is the correct understanding that the suhrt-sakha's are enjoying Krsna by looking out for him and watching over him like a big brother would do and the priya-sakha's are enjoying Krsna more in terms of friendship?
-Madhumangala
You got it right, but only if you replace "enjoying" with "serving."
I found this excerpt from Jaiva Dharma:
In Vraja, Krishna has four kinds of friends: 1. suhrt (well-wishers), 2. sakha (friends), 3. priya-sakha (confidential friends) and 4. priya-narma-vayasya (intimate friends). Krishna's well-wisher friends are a little bit older than Krishna and they have some parental affection for Him. Because of their being older than Krishna, they always try to protect Him from any harm. As such, they sometimes bear weapons so that they can chastise any mischievous persons who want to harm Krishna. Counted among the well wisher friends are Subhadra, Mandalibhadra, Bhadravardhana, Gobhata, Yaksa, Indrabhata, Bhadranga, Virabhadra, Mahaguna, Vijaya, and Balabhadra.* Among these friends Balabhadra and Mandalibhadra are the best. Friends who are younger than Krishna, who are always attached to Him, and who give Him all kinds of service are called ordinary friends, or simply friends. Such ordinary friends are called sakhas, and the names of some sakhas are Visala, Vrsabha, Ojasvi, Devaprastha, Varuthapa, Maranda, Kusumapida, Manibandha, and Karandham.* Among them Devaprastha is the best. The more confidential friends are called priya-sakhas and are almost Krishna's age. Because of their very confidential friendship, their behaviour is only on the basis of pure friendship. Some confidential friends are as follows: Sridama, Sudama, Dama, Vasudama, Kinkini, Stoka-Krishna, Amsu, Bhadrasena, Vilasi, Pundarika, Vitanka, and Kalavinka. There are other friends who are more confidential than the suhrt, sakha and priya-sakha friends. They are called priya-narma or intimate friends. Counted among the priya-narma friends are Subala, Arjuna, Gandharva, Vasanta, and Ujjvala.* Among them, Ujjvala, who is always eager to speak joking words, is the best. Among these friends some are nitya-siddha (eternally perfect), others are suracara (demigods who eventually attained this rasa) and others are sadhaka (human beings who by performing devotional service eventually attained this rasa). The friends serve Krishna in many different ways. Thus they perform a wonderful variety of different activities.
Vatsalya means paternal/maternal love. The very high ideal of suhrt-sakas is fraternity mixed with paternal love for Sri Krsna. As Syamasudara has pointed out, it is devoid of the enjoying spirit.
This is slightly off the topic but seems to also fit.
I’ve been reading the section of BRS about Preyo-bhakti-rasa with commentaries by Jiva Goswami and VCT. In the section that described uddipana’s and the various forms, dress, and actions which are most pleasing to Krsna’s various types of friends there is a statement, “This form of Krsna (ayam) during kaisora period, being yauvana mixed with the previous age (up to sixteen years), is most pleasurable to all the devotees. The form of Krsna during kaumara and pauganda ages are also pleasurable to a lesser degree (pauganda) and to lesser degrees (kaumara).” Then there is an endnote describing that kaumara is especially attractive to vatsalya-bhaktas and sakyha appears at the end of the period. Pauganda age is most attractive to sakhya-bhaktas but dasya and vatsala relationships are also present. The kaisora age is especially attractive to madhura-bhaktas, but is also attractive to the dasya-bhaktas, sakhya-bhaktas, and vatsala-bhaktas.
I guess my first question would be whom is Jiva Goswami referring to here, the verse says sarva-bhaktesu. Is he speaking of sadhakas and/ or siddhas?
Second, I am not sure exactly what Jiva Goswami is stating here. It sounds similar to statements about the four rasas and how progressively elements of each are contained within the others culminating in madhurya-rasa, which contains elements of them all yet this example seems to state that all these forms are appreciated by all of the bhaktas. I guess I never thought of it that way. Now that I think of it my understanding was more that madhura-bhaktas are the only ones that have access or appreciate this fullness within Kaisor Krsna. It sounds as if Jiva Goswami is saying that a bhakta will appreciate and experience all these aspects but finds a particular form more pleasurable. My understanding also was that at least for nitya-siddhas they experience Krsna in terms of their own prema, which correlates with a particular form and characteristics.
This is slightly off the topic but seems to also fit.
I’ve been reading the section of BRS about Preyo-bhakti-rasa with commentaries by Jiva Goswami and VCT. In the section that described uddipana’s and the various forms, dress, and actions which are most pleasing to Krsna’s various types of friends there is a statement, “This form of Krsna (ayam) during kaisora period, being yauvana mixed with the previous age (up to sixteen years), is most pleasurable to all the devotees. The form of Krsna during kaumara and pauganda ages are also pleasurable to a lesser degree (pauganda) and to lesser degrees (kaumara).” Then there is an endnote describing that kaumara is especially attractive to vatsalya-bhaktas and sakyha appears at the end of the period. Pauganda age is most attractive to sakhya-bhaktas but dasya and vatsala relationships are also present. The kaisora age is especially attractive to madhura-bhaktas, but is also attractive to the dasya-bhaktas, sakhya-bhaktas, and vatsala-bhaktas.
I guess my first question would be whom is Jiva Goswami referring to here, the verse says sarva-bhaktesu. Is he speaking of sadhakas and/ or siddhas?
Second, I am not sure exactly what Jiva Goswami is stating here. It sounds similar to statements about the four rasas and how progressively elements of each are contained within the others culminating in madhurya-rasa, which contains elements of them all yet this example seems to state that all these forms are appreciated by all of the bhaktas. I guess I never thought of it that way. Now that I think of it my understanding was more that madhura-bhaktas are the only ones that have access or appreciate this fullness within Kaisor Krsna. It sounds as if Jiva Goswami is saying that a bhakta will appreciate and experience all these aspects but finds a particular form more pleasurable. My understanding also was that at least for nitya-siddhas they experience Krsna in terms of their own prema, which correlates with a particular form and characteristics.
Here Rupa Goswami is speaking about siddhas in the nitya-ila. In the this lila Sri Krsna appears as an adolescent. Thus he is sometimes referred to at nitya kishore. However, according to Sanatana Goswami (see Bb mangalacarana) even in his childhood lilas manifest on earth his person is imbued with the fragrance of adolecense. In other words his adolecent beauty permeates even his kumara and pauganda ages. Traces of it are perceived by his parents and boyhood friends in hos kumara and paugangda ages respectively. Still his kumara age is particualrly attractive to vastsalya bhaktas and his pauganda age to sakhya bhaktas. Thus he manifests his prakata lila for them--just to please them by showing them these ages that are dear to them in particular, ages that are not fully manifest in the nitya lila. As Bhagavad-gita says, he comes to this world for the pleasure of his devotees (paritranaya sadhunam). However, as Sanatana Prabhu indicates, even when Krsna does so elements of his adolecent beauty can be perceived in these ages. As a side note here, the narma-sakhas are especially attracted to his pauganda age mixed with his kishore age as Krsna begins to turn his attention to the gopis. All of this underscores the idea that the prakata-lila is trancendentally more complete than the aprakata lila.
It is also true that all that is found in Krsna's kumara and pauganda ages and more is found in his kishore age. Devotee will focus on that which their bhava draws out, but again, the prakata lila is a special concession.
So, when we say that a sadhaka that attains perfection takes his or her last birth in some planet where Krsna is manifesting his prakata lila, and then moves on to maha-vaikuntha, doesn't that sound like a downgrade after what you have said?
That is really a good question, some devotees don't even know that we have to participate in prakrata lila before going to Goloka, they think 4 regs and 16 rounds directly lead to goloka as prabhupada said this. Then again I think for attaining vaikuntha we don't have to participate in the earthly lilas of narayana(hopefully i am correct on that one)
That is really a good question, some devotees don't even know that we have to participate in prakrata lila before going to Goloka, they think 4 regs and 16 rounds directly lead to goloka as prabhupada said this. Then again I think for attaining vaikuntha we don't have to participate in the earthly lilas of narayana(hopefully i am correct on that one)
Yes, one can go directly to Vaikuntha, not Goloka. The manifest lila is the place for sahdana siddhas to develop ther sthayi-bhava in terms od sneha, mana, pranaya ect. relative to their dasya, sakhya, vatsalya, or madhurya prema. This is pertinent to the Vraja lila but not the dasya or santa of Vaikuntha.
Regarding Syamasundara's question, the sadhana siddhas want to attain vastu siddhi and enter the unmnifest lila, whereas once they have done so they desire to participate in the manifest lila again. One cannot fully take advantage of the manifest lila before first attaining vastu siddhi and entering the unmnaifest lila. Once one has attained this, one can fully appreciate the manifest earthly lila more completely.
Here Rupa Goswami is speaking about siddhas in the nitya-ila. In the this lila Sri Krsna appears as an adolescent. Thus he is sometimes referred to at nitya kishore. However, according to Sanatana Goswami (see Bb mangalacarana) even in his childhood lilas manifest on earth his person is imbued with the fragrance of adolecense. In other words his adolecent beauty permeates even his kumara and pauganda ages.
Is this why sometimes in the Goswamis writings (I think RG's Stava Mala specifically. I wasn't able to find an exact reference) Krsna even as a young child is described as exhibiting attraction to the gopis. I always found that a bit odd considering he is in his nara lila. Could this also be considered a manifestation of his aisvarya?