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Tattva-viveka

Assignment 21

Babhru Das - April 15, 2007 1:05 am

Read Chapter 19 of The Nectar of Devotion, “Devotional Service in Pure Love of God.” This chapter covers the fourth wave of Bhaktirasamrita-sindhu’s Eastern Division, defining prema-bhakti and describing its gradual attainment. The chapter philosophical discussion of prema is quite brief because prema is really the mature state of bhava, which Srila Rupa Gosvami has already discussed thoroughly. Bhava, which Srila Rupa Goscami describes as a ray of prema, softens the heart, and prema softens it completely. Prema is bhava in its deepest, most intense state.

Here is Srila Rupa Gosvami’s definition of prema:

“When that bhava softens the heart completely, becomes endowed with a great feeling of possessiveness in relation to the Lord and becomes very much condensed and intensified, it is called prema [love of Godhead] by learned scholars.”

This comes from Chapter 23 of Sri Caitanya-caritamrita’s Madhya-lila, in which Mahaprabhu instructs Srila Sanatana Gosvami about prema. I suggest that reading this chapter along with might be enjoyable and enlightening. (This is verse 8.)

Some points to attend to in this chapter include its primary and secondary characteristics (svarupa laksana and tatashta laksana):

We should also note the two kinds of eligibility for prema-bhakti, which are the maturation of bhava (which is also analyzed as arising from bhava achieved either though vaidhi-sadhana or through raganuga-sadhana), or achieved by the extraordinary mercy of Krishna. Prema itself may be either mahatmya-jnana, mixed with knowledge of the Lord’s greatness, or kevala, which is absolutely pure, not mixed with anything whatsoever, and focused directly on Sri Krishna.

We usually attain prema only by persistent, ardent, progressive practice. It is only very rarely that someone attains it through a sudden stroke of mercy. Following Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s instructions to Sanatana Gosvami in Cc. Ch. 23, Srila Rupa Gosvami describes the gradual evolution from sraddha to prema as follows:

In the beginning there must be faith. Then one becomes interested in associating with pure devotees. Thereafter one is initiated by the spiritual master and executes the regulative principles under his orders. Thus one is freed from all unwanted habits and becomes firmly fixed in devotional service. Thereafter, one develops taste and attachment. This is the way of sadhana-bhakti, the execution of devotional service according to the regulative principles. Gradually emotions intensify, and finally there is an awakening of love. This is the gradual development of love of Godhead for the devotee interested in Krishna consciousness.

This progressive unfolding of love for Krishna is discussed in greater detail in Srila Visvanath Cakravarti Thakura’s Madhurya-Kadambini.

Assignment

One way to explore our understanding of this chapter may be to write about the evolution from sraddha to prema, putting into your own words how we may know practically whether someone (most importantly we ourselves) may actually be living on one or another stage. Remember that our sometimes catching a glimpse of a higher stage does not mean that we are established on that stage. Another activity that may be helpful at this point in our exploration may be to select a passage from the first part of NoD that we especially like and write about what it means to us. Why do you like it? What about it seems particularly significant to you?

Babhru Das - May 11, 2007 2:54 am

In the hope of encouraging others to participate, I want to note that questions, confusion, or any reactions reading this chapter might generate are appropriate and welcome. I hope no one will worry too much about having these things all figured out (or appearing to. The water here is no longer ankle, or even calf deep. We're in for interesting reefs and all kinds of cool fish. Although I'm happy to facilitate discussion here, that discussion is what this activity is about. Please don't be shy. Come on in!

Babhru Das - May 14, 2007 5:55 pm

It appears folks are peeking, but no one's contributing. It has occured to me that it may just be really hard to get conversation going when we're past the section on sadhana bhakti. That's what seems relevant to most of us. It has also become more difficult for me to come up with "assignments," even more now that we're in the chapters dealing with prema bhakti here on the Big Island. I try to put together some study notes meant to help us see how NoD works alongside Brs (how things are divided, some of Rupa's terms, and familiar and/or important verses), we have some kirtan, and then we discuss whatever seems to be on the devotees' minds.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Babhru Das - May 26, 2007 4:22 am

Nothing? No one? Perhaps if I put together more comprehensive notes, we may be able to get something going. On the other hand, we may have gone as far as we can productively on such a forum. One of Narayana Maharaja's disciples, B.V. Tridandi Maharaja visited here the last week. He's the devotee who made mp3 recordings of Jaiva Dharma a few years ago. Someone asked him if he intended ever to record the last chapters, on rasa-tattva. He said he'd like to, but that he'd need to be able to understand rasa-tattva first. I found this a little heartening.

I attended a Jaiva Dharma study group last night, and Tridandi Maharaja was there. We had really nice discussion of the last part of Ch. 16. It was very enlivening and made me wonder about getting an NoD study group, or something like it, when I come to Audarya. Hmmm . . . and it got me thinking again about working on something like this for Siksastakam.

Anyway, I'd appreciate any ideas, feelings, suggestions, etc. about this section of the TV Classroom.

Babhru Das - June 20, 2007 9:51 pm

Okay--last call for Assignment 21!

And, again, if anyone has any suggestions, ideas, complaints, etc., please let me hear.

Is there any interest in my posting Assignment 22, or have we found the limit of this process, at least here?

Swami - June 21, 2007 1:22 pm

Exploring the Ocean of The Nectar of Devotion

Assignment 21

 

We should also note the two kinds of eligibility for prema-bhakti, which are the maturation of bhava (which is also analyzed as arising from bhava achieved either though vaidhi-sadhana or through raganuga-sadhana), or achieved by the extraordinary mercy of Krishna. Prema itself may be either mahatmya-jnana, mixed with knowledge of the Lord’s greatness, or kevala, which is absolutely pure, not mixed with anything whatsoever, and focused directly on Sri Krishna.

We usually attain prema only by persistent, ardent, progressive practice. It is only very rarely that someone attains it through a sudden stroke of mercy.

What you have written above is not entirely clear to me. I think that this is what you intended to say: There are two kinds of prema. One is that attained through vaidhi-bhakti and the other is that attained through raganuga-bhakti. Our ideal is the latter. Then their are two means for attaining either of these types of prema: ardent spiritual practice (sadhana), and the mercy of Bhagavan or his devotee.

Regarding prema attained through vaidhi-bhakti, I think it is interesting that the very word "prema" is more or less a Gaudiya word. For example, vaidhi-marg sampradayas, such as Ramanuja and Madhva's sects describe their ideal as mukti, not prema. They are no doubt talking about what we call vaidhi-bhakti prema, but as far as I have seen they do not refer to it as such. Indeed this section of Brs is the only place I am aware of that the word prema is used in relation to devotional mukti or love of God in Vaikuntha. It may also arise in Bhakti-sandarbha or Priti-sandarbha, but I do not remember seeing it there.

After all the prema of Vraja is so different and the prema of Vaikuntha is so incomplete in comparison that it seems justifiable to use the word prema only in relation to Vraja and not to Vaikuntha. Other than this refernece above, this is pretty much what the Goswamis have done.

It is also interesting to note that elegibility to tread the raga marg requires mahat krpa, the mercy of great souls treading that path. Only upon receiving this can one take up the appropriate sadhana. The same may be said to hold for vaidhi-bhakti, but this is not emphasized in Brs or explicitly stated, whereas it is explicitly stated in with regard to raganuga-bhakti.

Babhru Das - June 21, 2007 5:15 pm

What you have written above is not entirely clear to me. I think that this is what you intended to say: There are two kinds of prema. One is that attained through vaidhi-bhakti and the other is that attained through raganuga-bhakti. Our ideal is the latter. Then their are two means for attaining either of these types of prema: ardent spiritual practice (sadhana), and the mercy of Bhagavan or his devotee.

Thank you. This is precisely the kind of feedback I'd like. And I agree that my language is somewhat convoluted. You've clarified both my language and my thinking. I need to go back and see if I can remember how I got that muddy language. It may have been the result of trying to get the study guide for that chapter ready too quickly.

Regarding prema attained through vaidhi-bhakti, I think it is interesting that the very word "prema" is more or less a Gaudiya word. For example, vaidhi-marg sampradayas, such as Ramanuja and Madhva's sects describe their ideal as mukti, not prema. They are no doubt talking about what we call vaidhi-bhakti prema, but as far as I have seen they do not refer to it as such. Indeed this section of Brs is the only place I am aware of that the word prema is used in relation to devotional mukti or love of God in Vaikuntha. It may also arise in Bhakti-sandarbha or Priti-sandarbha, but I do not remember seeing it there.

 

After all the prema of Vraja is so different and the prema of Vaikuntha is so incomplete in comparison that it seems justifiable to use the word prema only in relation to Vraja and not to Vaikuntha. Other than this refernece above, this is pretty much what the Goswamis have done.

 

It is also interesting to note that elegibility to tread the raga marg requires mahat krpa, the mercy of great souls treading that path. Only upon receiving this can one take up the appropriate sadhana. The same may be said to hold for vaidhi-bhakti, but this is not emphasized in Brs or explicitly stated, whereas it is explicitly stated in with regard to raganuga-bhakti.

These are welcome comments. You've made these points several times in your talks, and I think they help even more experienced devotees see what's missing in other association.

And I encourage other devotees to share things from Swami's talks or Sanga newsletters that seem relevant.

Anyone else? Should I go ahead and try Assignment 22 (after, of course, some thoughtful editing)?

Swami - June 21, 2007 7:18 pm

Anyone else? Should I go ahead and try Assignment 22 (after, of course, some thoughtful editing)?

I think it would be useful, as you have suggested, to discuss the stages from sraddha to prema. So what is sraddha? Where does it come from and how does one get it? Perhaps we can start here.

Nitai Joseph - June 22, 2007 5:37 pm

Well I will take a gander.

Sraddha is faith that my highest prospect can be achieved by getting involved in this Krsna Consciousness stuff, and also maybe theoretical faith that all other engagement is futile. It comes from sukriti, which is jnata and ajnata. a good example of ajnata( i think) is the dog chasing away a snake from biting a yogi. If I remember correctly service unbeknown to the performer comes first, and then some knowing service, which I think is not in expectation of remuneration. For example getting paid to paint a temple as your job; wouldn't be sukriti, but like one Prabhupada disciple told me how her father came to visit her and they sent him out to buy butter for the offering; i think that would be jnata sukriti? If that last sentence is correct( Im becomeing skeptical), why wouldnt painting a temple be sukriti? and what if any benefit is there to that kind of thing?

I think Sraddha is gotten by Sraddha. Srila Sridhar Maharaja gives the example of a candle. another lit candle can light a candle, but it can't light itself. So that would infer sadhu-sanga and krpa I think. That brings another question, is sukriti determined by karma, I would think of course not but then how does it enter into the life of a being surounded by the modes?

Also I believe Iv'e heard it said that all the following stages are developments and intesifying of sraddha.

Well I thought I understood this but now I see I dont know whats goin' on.

Swami - June 24, 2007 10:27 am

Well I will take a gander.

 

Sraddha is faith that my highest prospect can be achieved by getting involved in this Krsna Consciousness stuff, and also maybe theoretical faith that all other engagement is futile. It comes from sukriti, which is jnata and ajnata. a good example of ajnata( i think) is the dog chasing away a snake from biting a yogi. If I remember correctly service unbeknown to the performer comes first, and then some knowing service, which I think is not in expectation of remuneration. For example getting paid to paint a temple as your job; wouldn't be sukriti, but like one Prabhupada disciple told me how her father came to visit her and they sent him out to buy butter for the offering; i think that would be jnata sukriti? If that last sentence is correct( Im becomeing skeptical), why wouldnt painting a temple be sukriti? and what if any benefit is there to that kind of thing?

 

I think Sraddha is gotten by Sraddha. Srila Sridhar Maharaja gives the example of a candle. another lit candle can light a candle, but it can't light itself. So that would infer sadhu-sanga and krpa I think. That brings another question, is sukriti determined by karma, I would think of course not but then how does it enter into the life of a being surounded by the modes?

 

Also I believe Iv'e heard it said that all the following stages are developments and intesifying of sraddha.

 

Well I thought I understood this but now I see I dont know whats goin' on.

Yes, sraddha comes from sukriti, without knowledge (ajnata) of the significance of what one is doing and with some knowledge (jnata) of what one is doing. When this sukriti accumulates sufficiently, sraddha manifests. The oppourunity to acquire this sukriti comes from sadhu sanga:

sadhu-sange krsna-bhaktye sraddha yadi haya

bhakti-phala ‘prema’ haya, samsara yaya ksaya

Sraddha is defined thus,

sraddha’-sabde—visvssa kahe sudrdha niscaya

krsne bhakti kaile sarva-karma krta haya

"The word "sraddha" is said to be unflinching certainty that by engagning in Krsna-bhakti all karmic obligations are fulfilled."

Still there is weak faith, firm faith, and firm and well informed faith.

Nitai asks,

"How does it enter into the life of a being surounded by the modes?"

Anadi karma

Audarya-lila Dasa - June 25, 2007 5:46 pm

How does 'anadi karma' answer Nitai's question? Is it meant to? Or is it meant to elaborate on the question? I'm confused

It would seem that since only Krsna bhakti begets Krsna bhakti that the sukriti, knowing and unknowing, must be in relation to one who has it. Since the wanderings of one who has bhakti are not dictated by karma, the sukriti one gains in relation to such a person must have another cause.

Swami - June 25, 2007 10:59 pm

How does 'anadi karma' answer Nitai's question? Is it meant to? Or is it meant to elaborate on the question? I'm confused

Me too. I must have misread his question, but after rereading it I still don't understand it.

Babhru Das - June 25, 2007 11:34 pm

I think Nitai may have already answered his question before he asked it. He said,

I think Sraddha is gotten by Sraddha. Srila Sridhar Maharaja gives the example of a candle. another lit candle can light a candle, but it can't light itself. So that would infer sadhu-sanga and krpa I think. That brings another question, is sukriti determined by karma, I would think of course not but then how does it enter into the life of a being surounded by the modes?

I'd say that he's correct to say that the candle analogy implies sadhu-sanga and kripa.

Consideration of this stage of sraddha, especially in terms of causes, can be a little confusing; I've heard Srila Prabhupada discuss it in two ways. One is that this initial sraddha can be as simple as having even a touch of appreciation, thinking, for example, "These folks aren't so bad after all." I've often said that such a particle of appreciation opens us to sadhu sanga, even just stopping when accosted by someone like Swami at the airport, or Vaish on the street. It's hard to trace out the cause of that kind of faith in someone apparently steeped in passion and ignorance (even goodness), which may be why such kripa is called causeless.

Other time Srila Prabhupada discusses this stage, he uses the definition of sraddha from Sri Chaitanya-charitamrita: visvasa sudhrdha (firm conviction) that krsne bhakti kaile (by performing bhakti for Krishna) sarva karma krta hoy (all sorts of desires and obligations are fulfilled). This sounds to me a lot like nistha, which I've always considered a steadiness based on conviction.

I was going to write more about sraddha, but I thought I'd deal with my reactions to this question Nitai raised first.

Madan Gopal Das - June 26, 2007 12:46 am

That brings another question, is sukriti determined by karma, I would think of course not but then how does it enter into the life of a being surounded by the modes?

Here's my idea if I understand the question properly: I would posit that sukriti is born from the meeting of the jiva's exhaustion of material suffering and the descent of grace. Through suffering the jiva becomes open to an option out of this predicament. When grace comes in whatever small form into the jiva's existence, we show some reciprocation or appreciation with that energy and then set the path for more. It is not determined by karma, but by our "ripeness" (in suffering) so to speak to acknowledge grace. Whaddya think?

Swami - June 26, 2007 12:03 pm

Here's my idea if I understand the question properly: I would posit that sukriti is born from the meeting of the jiva's exhaustion of material suffering and the descent of grace. Through suffering the jiva becomes open to an option out of this predicament. When grace comes in whatever small form into the jiva's existence, we show some reciprocation or appreciation with that energy and then set the path for more. It is not determined by karma, but by our "ripeness" (in suffering) so to speak to acknowledge grace. Whaddya think?

I think you have to say that bhakti causes sukriti and sukriti predisposes one to bhakti. The bhakti that causes sukriti is found in initial sadhu sanga, which is distinct from the sadhu sanga that follows sraddha and helps one on the path to cultivate suddha bhakti. The seed of bhakti is planted in one who has this predisposition for bhakti. This seed is sraddha. However, at the same time it is not bhakti in and of itself. Sri Jiva writes, tasmac chraddha na bhakty angan, "sraddha is not a limb of bhakti." Its svarupa laksana is confidence in and some small taste for bhakti, while its tatastha laksana is indifference to fuitive activity. Sraddha is not a limb of bhakti in that it is not a practice like hearing or chanting.

Madan Gopal Das - June 26, 2007 1:27 pm

I think you have to say that bhakti causes sukriti

Do you mean that bhakti which is being carried by the sadhu and as bhakti is "aggressive", it forces its way into the heart of someone at that point of initial contact and then manifests as sukriti? Is there a qualification for that jiva to be attacked by bhakti, or is it just the mercy of the bhakta - the carrier of bhakti, making it available?

The bhakti that causes sukriti is found in initial sadhu sanga

I guess I'm still wondering how a person is open to that initial sadhu sanga. Is it like Babhru says, impossible to trace out? Anadi karma meets anadi kripa? The devotees are more merciful than the lord after all, but some people take the mercy and some do not.

Vivek - June 26, 2007 4:26 pm

jaiva dharma does say that when the jiva is ready for understanding of bhakti and he is looking for something outside material predicament sincerely, he gets some awakening through jnata and ajnata sukriti, culminating in sraddha. But when that sukriti will come for an individual jiva cannot be reasoned out."When the jiva's time has come to get out of material energy he gets that contact".(so it is very much upto paramatma's discretion)

So in one sense free will of jiva is pretty limited. I find it hard to even speak strongly against the material energy now as a witch clouding our vision, as sristi lila is required for mahavisnu anyway, and it will continue endlessly with souls choosing to remain here. And God does want to play with his saktis like this is sristi lila where some souls have anadi karma and will remain under material energy so how can we condemn it. So it looks that all the strong preaching against material world is just meant to fuel desire for bhajana. Even the land of karma or justice(this material world) is also lila, though different from krsna lila. And this lila has been chosen by God himself it is hard to condemn it.

Babhru Das - June 26, 2007 4:41 pm

I think you have to say that bhakti causes sukriti and sukriti predisposes one to bhakti.

Is this something like getting guru by the grace of Krishna, and Krishna by the grace of guru?

The bhakti that causes sukriti is found in initial sadhu sanga, which is distinct from the sadhu sanga that follows sraddha and helps one on the path to cultivate suddha bhakti. The seed of bhakti is planted in one who has this predisposition for bhakti.

This leaves Madan Gopal's question: where does this predisposition come from? Maybe ajnata sukriti? That would seem to suggest (Jeez--see how I qualify this?) that bhakti may be somewhat aggressive, as Madan prposes. Swami has talked sometimes about this aggressiveness. Srila Prabhupada asserted that he was a little (?) aggressive in coming here. And Swami has suggested on occasion that Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu almost interferes with our independence through his sankirtan campaign.

Babhru Das - June 26, 2007 5:04 pm

jaiva dharma does say that when the jiva is ready for understanding of bhakti and he is looking for something outside material predicament sincerely, he gets some awakening through jnata and ajnata sukriti, culminating in sraddha.

Ah, yes, but just what constitutes such readiness? Dhruva got Narada’s sanga because he really wanted an audience with Lord Vishnu—so he could get the greatest material boon. And Narada’s association and instruction undid those material desires. (Hmmm . . . sounds a little aggressive.)

In Ch. 6 of Jaiva Dharma, Bhaktivinoda has Vaishnava das cite Brihan-naradiya Purana’s assertion: The inclination for bhakti is awakened by association with bhagavad-bhakta, the Lord’s devotees, and that we get such association by the cumulative effect of many lifetimes of sukriti. Earlier, Vaishnava das explains that sraddha is inherent in the jiva as nitya-svabhava, its eternal nature.

This is all rather challenging for the small minds of Kali-yuga folks, isn’t it? It’s good to work out like this, I think.

Swami - June 26, 2007 6:01 pm

Ah, yes, but just what constitutes such readiness? Dhruva got Narada’s sanga because he really wanted an audience with Lord Vishnu—so he could get the greatest material boon. And Narada’s association and instruction undid those material desires. (Hmmm . . . sounds a little aggressive.)

Dhruva was not in the least material exhausted. But what kind of bhakti did he get

Vaishnava das explains that sraddha is inherent in the jiva as nitya-svabhava, its eternal nature.

As the Gita says, a person is his or her faith.

Vivek - June 26, 2007 6:16 pm

obviously ultimately the sadhu has to create sukriti also but it can work differently on the four kinds of people who come to krsna(7th chapter gita). Though the final result for all the four people may be the same.

But again I find it hard to seperate the domain of karma from lila as even the realm of karma is lila which cannot be done away with either.

Babhru Das - June 26, 2007 6:56 pm

Dhruva was not in the least material exhausted.

Yes, even though he wasn't materially exhausted, he had some sraddha and got the association and instruction of Narada.

But what kind of bhakti did he get

And here's the crux. His approach was not anyabhlilashita-sunyam. His dedication to his meditation was based on a very strong material desire: to attain a kingdom even greater than Brahma's. And the result was not the kind of bhakti to which we should aspire. It seems it was karma-mishra bhakti. However, it also seems as though he became progressively purified during his life and attained the vasudeva platform. Even then, though, we don't see the standard of selflessness evident in the vraja-vasis.

Swami - June 26, 2007 8:33 pm

obviously ultimately the sadhu has to create sukriti also but it can work differently on the four kinds of people who come to krsna(7th chapter gita). Though the final result for all the four people may be the same.

But again I find it hard to seperate the domain of karma from lila as even the realm of karma is lila which cannot be done away with either.

There is a significant difference between sristi-lila and Krsna-lila: the influence of svarupa-sakti is absent in sristi-lila. In sristi-lila maya-sakti prevails. It is the lila of the Paramatma, not Bhagavan, other then occasional appearances of Bhagavan within it. However, even these appearances are beyond it--in the world but not of it. For that matter, even Paramatma barely participates other than wittnessing. Furthermore, the influence of karma can be done away with in the case of the fortunate jiva.

Vivek - June 26, 2007 11:02 pm

There is a significant difference between sristi-lila and Krsna-lila: the influence of svarupa-sakti is absent in sristi-lila. In sristi-lila maya-sakti prevails. It is the lila of the Paramatma, not Bhagavan, other then occasional appearances of Bhagavan within it. However, even these appearances are beyond it--in the world but not of it. For that matter, even Paramatma barely participates other than wittnessing. Furthermore, the influence of karma can be done away with in the case of the fortunate jiva.

Yes, the difference in the lila with respect to the maya-sakti and svarupa sakti remains but somehow or the other bhagavan indirectly through paramatma wants the sristi lila to happen also. There is no reasonable ground for occurence of this lila either, it also is merely a sport of bhagavan(through paramatma). sristi lila also facilitates the tasting of vira rasa by narayana.

According to the advaya jnana tattva, all energies of bhagavan are penetrable, but maya sakti doesn't look to be penetrable.

When bhagavan doesn't ever interact with maya sakti directly, how can we call the maya sakti as penetrable?

Swami - June 27, 2007 10:51 am

Yes, the difference in the lila with respect to the maya-sakti and svarupa sakti remains but somehow or the other bhagavan indirectly through paramatma wants the sristi lila to happen also. There is no reasonable ground for occurence of this lila either, it also is merely a sport of bhagavan(through paramatma). sristi lila also facilitates the tasting of vira rasa by narayana.

 

According to the advaya jnana tattva, all energies of bhagavan are penetrable, but maya sakti doesn't look to be penetrable.

When bhagavan doesn't ever interact with maya sakti directly, how can we call the maya sakti as penetrable?

By "penetrable" I assume you mean abheda (nondifferent). Maya-sakti is abheda in that it is not indepenent of God.

Vivek - June 27, 2007 2:28 pm

By "penetrable" I assume you mean abheda (nondifferent). Maya-sakti is abheda in that it is not indepenent of God.

The interpenetration of brahman and maya-sakti is very limited as brahman never interacts with the maya-sakti directly so I thought it may compromise strict non-duality. But as you said it is only abheda in that it is not independent of God.

But the point remains that maya sakti and the jivas constitute expressions of brahman's love(lokavat tu lila kaivalyam) so so it is very hard to downplay the sristi lila too much apart from the saking of fueling the bhajana of the sadhaka.

Vivek - June 28, 2007 4:43 pm

Sorry for the detour caused by me. But from sraddha we move to sadhu sanga which makes one qualified to receive diksha. Although some kind of sadhu sanga is also needed to get sukriti, but here the sadhu sanga is taken by the practitioner more seriously and with thinking, feeling and willing.

Babhru Das - July 3, 2007 3:55 am

Okay, I'll get this part started. Of the stage of sraddha, Srila Visvanath Chakravarti Thakura says,

Addressing sraddha in his Siksastakam of Sri Chaitanya, our Swami writes,

Babhru Das - September 20, 2007 11:11 am

It looks as though we stalled, or perhaps we ran out of discussion for this chapter. Does anyone have anything else, or have we exhausted our discussion of this chapter for now? (Anyone can revive any chapter's discussion at any time.)

Is there interest in discussing Chapter 20?

Vivek - September 22, 2007 2:56 am

when we say that somebody went back to godhead does it mean that he/she has gone to krsna's nara lila or that he has gone to goloka. Most people have the conception that the soul directly goes to goloka atleast in ISKCON.