Tattva-viveka

2007 GBC Resolutions

Nitai Joseph - April 15, 2007 1:27 am

Here is a link to the 2007 GBC Resolutions:

http://www.dandavats.com/wp-content/upload...ns/GBCRES07.htm

I was thinking we could discuss some of these if people are inclined. There is one I would like to hear people's thoughts about but I will wait and see if other's are interested.

Nanda-tanuja Dasa - April 15, 2007 2:58 am

I found this part the most interesting:

Part C. Apology to Dhanurdhara Swami

[statement]Dear Dhanurdhara Maharaja,

Please accept our humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

We hope that this letter finds you in good health.

The GBC Body is aware that in the course of its ecclesiastical dealings concerning past child abuse in the society, sometimes the procedures we followed were awkward and took a long time to complete. This was particularly true in your case, and we unfortunately did not always keep you abreast of the ongoing progress of those procedures.

The GBC Body is sorry for the difficulties you and your disciples, followers, and friends must have experienced because of these long and cumbersome procedures. We could have done much better, and we sincerely apologize.

We support the decision of the Office of Child Protection in your case, but our procedures should not have added to your burden.

Additionally, we remain committed to promoting healing and reconciliation for our youth, parents, and all others affected by abuse. We hope that you will continue to reach out personally to former students. We appreciate the efforts you have made in this regard, and we encourage you to continue. We are willing to work with you where appropriate.

In conclusion, we never wanted you to leave the ISKCON society. We humbly request you again to remain an active member in ISKCON. Not only are we sure that this would be the desire of Srila Prabhupada, but also that it would be the best course of action for you, your disciples, and your followers.

Your servants,

The GBC

Babhru Das - April 15, 2007 4:15 am

In conclusion, we never wanted you to leave the ISKCON society. We humbly request you again to remain an active member in ISKCON. Not only are we sure that this would be the desire of Srila Prabhupada, but also that it would be the best course of action for you, your disciples, and your followers.

They don't give any reasons, or any other kind of support, for this concluding argument. As one of my professors in graduate school would say, just saying something doesn't make it so. This letter seems to want to offer a little comfort when it says, "our procedures should not have added to your burden." Nevertheless, the letter is all bureaucratic gobbledygook. It's a way of evading saying, "We didn't know what the hell we were doing, and we screwed this up royally." can't imagine that anyone as sharp as Dhanurdhara Maharaja will be easily moved by such a letter to move back into ISKCON.

Perhaps I'm being too critical, but there's just something about the tone of the letter that I find condescending, especially that last paragraph. And the conclusion is what some folks consider a power position in a document.

Margaret Dale - April 15, 2007 10:52 am

Spiritual Discrepancy

1. Failure to follow strictly the rules and regulations as described in Srila Prabhupada’s books.

2. Philosophical deviation.

3. Consistently irregular attendance at the temple morning program without bona fide cause.

4. Failure to follow any of the four regulative principles or to regularly chant sixteen rounds of japa.

I am wondering how they are defining "philosophical deviation" and who will be in charge of policing this. I am afraid this vague definition could be used as a tool for silencing political opponents. I also think it is interesting that they are now requiring all GBC members to chant their 16 rounds. Again, who is policing this? I have no personal knowledge of this, but I have read posts here that suggest that some members do not currently chant 16 rounds. If this is true, how do they propose to enforce this?

Syamasundara - April 15, 2007 11:17 am

Wow...

I haven't read the resolutions, nor do I think I'll bother, but the 16 round thing is really, I don't know...

I am not in the right position to judge who is chanting and how much, as my constance and taste seem to fluctuate, but it makes you wonder, most of these GBCs are sannyasis and gurus; if their authority and qualification to be "governing" Iskcon is not based on their level of purity and attraction to Krsna and his name, then what exactly is it based on?

I haven't read the actual resolution, but the tone of it seems to be the same as the letter SP posted on 22nd Ave in the 60's:

"All initiated disciples should abstain from meat eating, gambling.... they should chant 16 rounds daily..."

Does anyone who follows the resolutions know how far they have gone with openly, directly and unmistakably apologizing to SSM and his followers?

Nitai Joseph - April 15, 2007 12:38 pm

Does anyone who follows the resolutions know how far they have gone with openly, directly and unmistakably apologizing to SSM and his followers?

I don't know what they have done but it is insufficient. There is still an "envious godbrother" mentality pervading alot of ISKCON devotees. I've encountered it numerous times. I think there should be more done to see to it that all devotees, not just GBC, have the proper conception of Srila Sridhar Maharaja(if the GBC even does :Nail Biting: ).

Misconduct and Indiscipline

1. Willful violation of GBC resolutions.

2. Vilification of ISKCON or the GBC Body.

3. Misconduct in office (physical assault except in self-defense, improper relationships with the opposite sex, improper sexual behavior, abusive behavior to devotees, improper dealings with external society, and so on.)

4. Habitually or knowingly making false charges and accusations or other consistent vaisnava-aparadhas.

5. Serious interference in the guru and disciple relationship.

6. Duplicitous or untruthful dealings (giving false promises to devotees, lying to spiritual authorities, and other serious prevarication).

Improper Discharge or Neglect of Duty

1. Consistent unexcused absences at Divisional Council meetings.

2. Consistent failure to submit prescribed monthly reports.

3. Consistent interference in the guru-disciple relationship or consistent disregard of the devotees’ requirement to accept a spiritual master and serve him.

4. Consistent or serious economic mismanagement of such a nature that it endangers the temple or preaching mission.

5. Serious degradation of temple standards (deity worship, cleanliness and kitchen standards, devotee morale, preaching, temple economy, etc.)

6. Failing to make all necessary and prudent arrangements to defend their corporations and properties from legal liabilities.

Spiritual Discrepancy

1. Failure to follow strictly the rules and regulations as described in Srila Prabhupada’s books.

2. Philosophical deviation.

3. Consistently irregular attendance at the temple morning program without bona fide cause.

4. Failure to follow any of the four regulative principles or to regularly chant sixteen rounds of japa.

These criteria are almost all gross-body issues, from my very little experience, the one TP I have contact with could only really be found guilty of degrading "devotee morale", but I certainly feel he should be replaced. I think there should be things like, "not hearing suggestions of those 'under' you", "not acting with devotees according to the 6 loving relationships" things like that. Maybe i'm wrong though.

The other thing that is interesting to me is the "Kirtan Standards". I know there is some discussion of how SP wanted kirtan to be etc. It seems so weird to censor and standardize kirtan. On the other hand from my short time being around I see that alot of people(especially young) are more into it for the music. Either the mridungas and kartals are to numerous/loud or the singer seems to be showing of their voice not the Holy Name. My one thought is if things were different in the society as a whole, then more people would be more serious(granted the society would be smaller), and people would want the Holy Name more, not the rockin' music.

Prema-bhakti Marga - April 15, 2007 2:43 pm

I found this part the most interesting:

Dhanurdhara Swami had seen a different apology letter that was written by the GBC to him and then without his knowledge the GBC changed it and subsequently published it in the resolutions. Below is the letter he sent to the GBC chairman in this regard.

Dear Bhanu Swami Maharaja,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupda.

A month ago Bhakti Vijnana Goswami handed me an apology letter from the GBC, an apology I accepted. Today I found out the GBC has withdrawn that apology. Accordingly, I withdraw my response.

Your servant,

Dhanurdhara Swami

Prema-bhakti Marga - April 15, 2007 2:46 pm

can't imagine that anyone as sharp as Dhanurdhara Maharaja will be easily moved by such a letter to move back into ISKCON.

Dhanurdhara Maharaja is not going back to ISKCON.

Madan Gopal Das - April 15, 2007 3:21 pm

The whole thing (resolutions) gives me the creeps. Somehow it seems so spiritually stifling. While I understand things can't be out of control; everybody doing what they want willy nilly, it seems such a fine line before you start institutionalizing one particular voice as law - usually in the case of ISKCON, a spiritually conservative one. Be it kirtan standards, what books you can or can't read, what dress you can or can't wear, what rules you follow, who is bona-fide or not - it just seems to become so devoid of spirit, realization, LIFE... And where is the siddhanta behind it all, outside of quotes from Prabhupada?? I guess I would imagine that spiritual leadership is the only solution. When the leadership doesn't inspire the people spiritually, it seems to revert to the law of the letter, details... bureaucracy.

Here is a sentence that piqued my interest:

There should ideally be no change of Presidents or ISKCON Leaders. If there are any difficulties there should first be an attempt to resolve it by careful mediation.

Why no change? What is wrong with a little change here and there? Who decides who stays right now?... other people who are staying! Perhaps voting... I know that is DEMONcrazy (democracy), but that does seem to be the most popular system on earth right now. I believe Prabhupada suggested it at least for temple communities to pick their temple president.

Anyway... this stuff is tiring to think about. :Nail Biting: :Sleepy:

Vivek - April 15, 2007 5:36 pm

Kirtan standards in general are managed by Bhakti Vikas Swami Maharaja. He is one of the most strict sanyasis(sleeping very less, lot of japa,taking a very close bath) and considered a person who doesn't tolerate any deviation from prabhupada's letter. His kirtan standard book was used extensively by Jayaadvaita Maharaja in his classes so maybe there is some merit to it. Many of his followers consider him to be in the mood of bhaktisiddanta saraswati thakur is smashing out all deviations mayavada etc.

I can only offer respects to him from distance because his style dont inspire me, but i think many devotees are inspired by his style.

Shyam Gopal Das - April 15, 2007 6:45 pm

"Philosophical deviation"

If they just knew...

Babhru Das - April 15, 2007 9:36 pm

Kirtan standards in general are managed by Bhakti Vikas Swami Maharaja. He is one of the most strict sanyasis(sleeping very less, lot of japa,taking a very close bath)

I'm not sure what you mean by a "close bath," but I have some experience of sleeping a lot less. In 1970, when the first volume of Krishna book came out, our temple president said that any of the brahmacharis who could go two weeks with only four hours' sleep could have a copy. My friend Tarun Kanti was the only one who made it the whole two weeks; then he collapsed and was out of commission for a month or so. In '71 we heard about Prabhupada's response to a Godbrother (Upendra) who complained about being so lusty. Prabhupada told him to eat half of what he needed and sleep less. Tarun and I (foolishly) saw this as a secret path to quick advancement and went on that program. It seemed okay for a couple of weeks, but we started acting really crazy, and we got so constipated from the diet that even a box of Swiss Kriss couldn't get us going again. Now, if Maharaja sleeps less to do more service and is able to pace himself, that may be fine, but it doesn't necessarily mean he's spiritually advanced. In fact, too much austerity tends to harden the heart. This may explain his intolerance of others who aren't as "fixed up" and "faithful" as he is. I particularly remember his nastiness in writing about some of Bhakti-tirtha Maharaja's less conventional preaching.

and considered a person who doesn't tolerate any deviation from prabhupada's letter. His kirtan standard book was used extensively by Jayaadvaita Maharaja in his classes so maybe there is some merit to it. Many of his followers consider him to be in the mood of bhaktisiddanta saraswati thakur is smashing out all deviations mayavada etc.

A devotee's followers may label him or her in whatever mood makes them feel special. I honor Bhakti Vikas Maharaja's dedication to serving Srila Prabhupada, but I know whose association--and mood--I want.

Vivek - April 15, 2007 9:45 pm

I'm not sure what you mean by a "close bath," but I have some experience of sleeping a lot less.

Sorry i meant taking cold water bath under any circumstance(i.e even if you are in alaska). Yes his disicple like him for his bold aggressive talk which according to them is akin to bhaktisiddhanta thakur.

Anyway I am myself not that inspired by his example.

I just brought him up as he is mentioned in GBC resolution for kirtan reform.

Vamsidhari Dasa - April 17, 2007 1:57 pm

OMG OMG!!!!

If we measured ones spiritual standing by the amount of one's sleep and cold showers so many homeless people and those with mania would be saints. I dont know what to say to these resolutions except WHO CARES? :Applause: :Talking Ear Off:

They can resolute as much as they want. Every time something like this appears on Tattva Viveka it deeply disturbs me. I have to make so much effort to ditance my self from ISCKON on alsmost daily bases and try tp [resent our group as different, culturaly relevant and able to participate in social discourse. In a sense it makes me proud to be "spiritualy discrepant" and "philosophically deviant" if they are the ones who are setting up standards of conduct.

In conclusion, I have never read anything so ridicilous that that apology to DM! There is no taking responsibility, humility, or asking for forgiveness there is only a vague admission that they are the victims of their own procedural mishaps. WHAT EVER! (i CANT FIND THAT "TALK TO THE HAND" SMILEY)

Nanda-tanuja Dasa - April 17, 2007 10:50 pm

WHO CARES?

I do. ISKCON, because of the shire volume of members, is a face of Vaishnavism for the Western World. It will never go away, it will not dissolve or magically disappear, and you also cannot simply ignore them. All we can do is to learn on ISKCON’s mistakes, so we do not repeat something like that and to be better devotees and people, then maybe after some time we can tilt the scale, so general populous accepts us as thoughtful, legitimate religious practice, not as crazy cult. What do you say when somebody asks you “Are you Hare Krishna?” I usually make a painful face and blabber something like “Well, we are vaishnavas… Yes, I am, but I’m not from ISKCON”, etc. Bad, very bad. I feel very ashamed of myself. So, I do care very much, because there is high possibility that I would have to answer for their mistakes. Always.

Madhavendra Puri Dasa - April 17, 2007 11:17 pm

I have never read anything so ridicilous that that apology to DM! There is no taking responsibility, humility, or asking for forgiveness there is only a vague admission that they are the victims of their own procedural mishaps. WHAT EVER! (i CANT FIND THAT "TALK TO THE HAND" SMILEY)

I am sure that my knowledge in this regard is incomplete, but I can not help but admitt that I dont understand compeletly why GBC was supposed to ask DM for forgivness? As far as I understood his guilt in dealing with gurukulis was undeniable even by himself. I heard that DM was "thrown to the liones" by GBC, but was he innocent? I dont know him at all, but I am litlle bit confused here. From one side I have your sanga who stay on the side of DM, saying he ws mistreated by Iskcon autorities, then there are some other devotees, my friends who are angry at DM, for the way he dealt with kids, and their anger is substanciated by the facts. And then there is GBC's opinion, but this is as usually compeletly enigmatic, and unclear, and regular devotees have no idea what really is going on there.

So...what is really going on? :Applause:

Shyam Gopal Das - April 17, 2007 11:28 pm

About Dhanurdhara Maharaj: read this thread

Madhavendra Puri Dasa - April 18, 2007 12:09 am

About Dhanurdhara Maharaj: read this thread

Thank you Shyam Gopal. I'll go trough it.

Vamsidhari Dasa - April 18, 2007 3:22 pm

Dear NT in response to your message I have to say that I feel the same way I go through the same feelings and discomfort when compared to "the Hare Krishnas." I usually say that I am not one of them. I never was. I think that many Gaudiya Vaisnavas would feel the same because the religion was there before and will be there after the HKs. In a sense, I sometimes feel that people want to make these heroic efforts to change ISCKON to ameliorate the climate ect., just so that we can all get along. I am not sure we have to. I mean why do we have to look at their resolutions? Did GM come up with any resolutuions for us? He is my Governing Body and everything. He sets up a standard for us that is enough for me. So why would I have to concern myself with what some other group sets as a standard for their memebers? I dont care who showers with cold water and how masochistic someone is.

I certainly do not go to all other Gaudiya Maths and look up ther programs and stuff so that I can see how we compare. ISCKON is a "face of Vaisnavisam" only to the extent that you believe them to be. That face is a distorted image, prabhu, find yourself another mirror prabhu. They are in maya! They have powerful preaching methods that sweep up the hungly for spiritual food (like those in Russia and Eastern Europe) but sooner or later those with real spiritual feeling realize that ISCKON is so wrong. Sometimes there is strenght in numbers but you can also say that the masses are ignorant. Just yhink about the sweeping world movements that are long gone and forgotten by now.

You only have to answer for their mistakes to the extent that you identify with them and by into it. See, I have the same feeling of embarassment but I react differently. I do not feel responsible for ISCKON. What I am trying to say here is thst it is possible not to feel responsible for ISCKONs mistakes. You cannot change ISCKON only your self. When I say that I am not a part of the HK organization the conversation then stops. People in general don't continue to drill me on differences but take my word for it. It is only those who are still in some way connected to ISCKON that continue to question and bother. It is because thwey cannot handle the difference and by into all that BS about loyalty to the institution etc. I dont buy into it. As if there ir only one face of Vaisnavisam. How many faces of it did you see just in Vrindavan?

It is enough for me to be one of those faces, and if I may say so quite a handosme one as well!

Guru-nistha Das - April 18, 2007 5:00 pm

I think it's good to make the distinction to the public (or whoever asks) that we are not Hare Krishnas, and not give the 'We are and aren't" answer. Why not just separate ourselves clearly from the image that the world has of the Hare Krishnas?

We don't have to explain or justify ourselves through ISKCON or their standards. They just can't impose any rules or standars on us, because we have nothing to do with the institutional structure of ISKCON.

Let's just stop feeling any guilt or need for justification in their eyes and carry on with our own mission with Guru Maharaja steering the boat. That will take us so much further in our spiritual lives than trying to find some kind of a middle ground.

Bhrigu - April 18, 2007 5:49 pm

I think that your version, Gurunistha, is a bit unrealistic in the sense that to outsiders, there really is no difference between Guru Maharaja, Narayana Maharaja and ISKCON. They all dress in the same way, chant Hare Krishna and eat the same kind of food. So I agree with Nandatanuja. Whether we want it or not, much of what they do will affect us indirectly. Also, it may be good to remember that most of our members came through ISKCON and will probably do so in the future as well.

Madan Gopal Das - April 18, 2007 5:51 pm

It is enough for me to be one of those faces, and if I may say so quite a handsome one as well!

Now who can argue that?!! :Nail Biting:

Gaurangi-priya Devi - April 18, 2007 6:12 pm

That will take us so much further in our spiritual lives than trying to find some kind of a middle ground.

There are some of us here that have to find the middle ground. It's not always easy making a clear cut distinction. For those of you who live in or near Audarya, it may be easier for you to feel completely disconnected from ISKCON, but for others it's different. And yes we have to make the distinction, but we will always have some history connected to ISKCON at it is the organization of Srila Prabhupada and he is our param guru. ISKCON has deviations and numerous faults, but there are also many wonderful devotees and preaching activities that aren't just feeding the hungry in Russia. Anyway, I was going to stay out of this conversation as sometimes I feel like I have two feet in separate places. But I don't want to have to feel alienated and looked down upon in my Guru's spiritual group, because I'm connected to ISKCON, anymore than I want to be alienated at an ISKCON temple because of my being a disciple of Gurumaharaj. ISKCON isn't made up of just the leaders, and at least in my community there are many devotees who are ISKCON devotees who are already asking me when Gurumaharaj's next visit here will be.

Having said that, I don't care either of the GBC resolutions. I don't waste my time reading them. I have learned to understand that there are many devotees here, including our leader, who have been mistreated terribly by ISKCON, and that makes me very deeply sad. Believe me, it's not an easy position for me.

I pray sincerely that I have not made any offenses. I have been born and bred in ISKCON, but Gurumaharaj is my saving grace who picked me up and instilled faith in my heart. I am like a train wreck between ISKCON and Sri Caitanya Sanga. I pray to have only the orientation as servant, and if I'm cooking an offering for Sri Sri Radha-Golokananda at the ISKCON temple or doing other service there, in my heart I try to always give the offering to Gurumaharaj for really that is where my heart is and I just truely want to be accepted by his family.

Gaurangi-priya Devi - April 18, 2007 6:22 pm

I think that your version, Gurunistha, is a bit unrealistic in the sense that to outsiders, there really is no difference between Guru Maharaja, Narayana Maharaja and ISKCON. They all dress in the same way, chant Hare Krishna and eat the same kind of food. So I agree with Nandatanuja. Whether we want it or not, much of what they do will affect us indirectly. Also, it may be good to remember that most of our members came through ISKCON and will probably do so in the future as well.

This is very true. To Indians and other people in general, white devotees are Hare Krishnas. I have said to people at work and such that I am a Hare Krsna, but don't relate so much to the institution itself. They can understand that, as many people know the problems with institutions. But making a super clear distinction would seem problematic and strange to them, as unfortunately it very well is and embarrassing too.

Nitai Joseph - April 18, 2007 7:40 pm

I don't feel that it's completely necessary to feel that we are not part of ISKCON. Also I am not fully under the guidance of Swami yet, so I might think like that. But I feel like to the extent that ISKCON is not polluted and to the extent that my motives are not polluted, to that degree I am part of ISKCON. After all, I'm in favor of International Krsna Consciousness. I agree with Nanda Tanuja as to the relevance and importance of being aware of the goings-on of ISKCON. I think there will come opportunities for advanced, progressive persons like those on T. V. to have a direct or indirect influence, if they don't already. So if on one side there is ISKCON and on the other side is "you", if they don't entirely burn the bridge, then I certainly don't think we should.

I think it's great that Gaurangi-Priya can cook in an ISKCON temple and move within ISKCON to some extent, although I'm sure there are difficulties. I'm inclined to think that things will get better, not worse, but at what rate I can't say. I do know from my limited interactions with Gurukulis that a lot of the second generation is more open-minded. Sometimes too much so, at least it seems like that to me.

One question comes up for me, how does someone in Swami's circle for example, not develop an attitude of feeling better then ISKCON? Or is it ok to acknowledge some degree of superiority if we keep in mind it is all mercy and we are not the doer?

Vivek - April 18, 2007 7:49 pm

I agree with Bhrigu and Gaurangi Priya, how can you make the distinction when you use the same dress, devotee tilak and everything else like ISKCON. Of course we may tone down the externals while presenting philosophy to a new group but most people dont agree with me on this point, they want to preach only in devotee dress as it is the dress of spiritual world. I had no reservation about it but when the dress is identified so much much hare krsnas how can we be distinguished from them.

On the other hand I agree with Gaurangi Priya as I still render service in ISKCON temple and organize some programs here in university in which the temple is involved and a lot of devotees have a lot of affection for me though it will change when everybody knows about my connection with Maharaja(some devotees so know about it but i dont generally bring it up unneccesarily). I feel fortunate that i can wash dishes,serve prasadam and clean temple room.

Also although i am not qualified but atleast I hope that with my conduct I can represtn more appropietely than my unneccessarily confrontation. Even prabhupada when asked about his best disciples said " they will be perfect ladies and gentleman". I think by our character, conduct and devotion we can glorify maharaja more than just confrontation. Of course when necessarily we have to speak about siddhanta to defend Maharaja.

Shyam Gopal Das - April 18, 2007 8:37 pm

I have to agree mostly with Gurunistha and Vamsi here. Though I understand the sentiments and difficulties too for devotees still associating much with Iskcon. We also have to take into account about which situations we are speaking of and be aware of generalizing.

Gaurangi Priya's relationship with iskcon is a completely different one than Gurunistha's and mine for instance. So yes I understand it is much easier for us to distance ourselves from iskcon. (and for others there may be no need to at this point)

But I won't and cannot advertise myself to the outside world has a Hare Krishna. The general idea (at least in Holland) is that they are happy loonies dancing and singing on the street. In other words, clearly misunderstood due to their own deeds and miscommunication. Who else can you blame when such a large group of people looks at you like that? It is an injustice to the philosophy and I don't want to defend that image or be grouped within it. I usually tell people I'm a Hindu and yes that there are many similarities with the Hare Krishna (when they know anything about it), but that's because they are an offshoot from the lineage I'm in. This may sound as strong language to some of you and I do understand that to some degree. However, I think it is necessary to protect people who might be really interested.

And no this should not be about egos or feeling better than iskcon. Not us vs them. But just be engaged in our sadhana representing the ideas of our Guru Maharaj.

Guru-nistha Das - April 18, 2007 9:01 pm

I think that your version, Gurunistha, is a bit unrealistic in the sense that to outsiders, there really is no difference between Guru Maharaja, Narayana Maharaja and ISKCON. They all dress in the same way, chant Hare Krishna and eat the same kind of food. So I agree with Nandatanuja. Whether we want it or not, much of what they do will affect us indirectly. Also, it may be good to remember that most of our members came through ISKCON and will probably do so in the future as well.

My feeling is that it doesn't matter if we dress the same etc. it's still more attractive and approachable for the public if we do the distinction. For example, a person may dress in a black suit, eat asparagus soups in fancy restaurants and drive a BMW. But he can be many different things: A business man devotee, a contract killer, mr. president, a football player, what ever. Although we dress the same and act the same, it gives more of a clean slate for the public to form their attitudes towards us if we separate ourselves from ISKCON.

Vivek wrote:

I'm sorry to come off a bit harsh Vivek, but this is exactly what I don't understand: why do you want to associate with people who will not be friendly to you anymore when they find out who your guru is? That to me is outright offensive on their part. We have to be gentlemen to a certain degree, but at the same time, we shouldn't be without some backbone either (I'm not saying that you are! :Nail Biting: )

Nitai wrote:

But I feel like to the extent that ISKCON is not polluted and to the extent that my motives are not polluted, to that degree I am part of ISKCON. After all, I'm in favor of International Krsna Consciousness.

This sentence brings out the point I was trying to make: ISKCON and international Krsihna Consciousness are not the same thing. Why even use the term ISKCON for an international community for gaudiya vaishnavas?

We don't have to define ourselves through ISKCON anymore. We follow the Gaudiya siddhanta and we have a sad guru to lead the way, so why not throw out the old definitions and attitudes and reform this thing? Rock the boat, brothers and sisters.

I'd like to add that this is the kind of discussion we really need to have as a community, to weigh in on these things. I apologize for hurting anybody's feelings but nonetheless I will hold the same opinions I stated in my previous post.

Nanda-tanuja Dasa - April 18, 2007 9:39 pm

Well. You cannot run away from those questions. Seems that everyone have to face it on their own, on different levels. I know one thing, labels stick, and although I’m not Russian (I’m Jewish) and though I am a refugee, running from USSR, I always will be russki and people will call me comrade, though I hate it. I do read news from back home, to see what is happening, because I don’t want to end up like Japanese (see Japanese American Internment), so I want to be alert and well informed. I don’t see my example that much different from the subject we are discussing.

Guru-nistha Das - April 18, 2007 9:51 pm

Good analogy Nanda-Tanujaji. But remember when we were at the counter of that big hotel in Delhi and the clerk asked where we all were from and after I said that you are Russian, you told "I'm not a russian". That actually really made me think about the subject and made me interested in why you said that: Here's a guy who looks like a russian and talks like a russian but doesn't consider himself as one. I thought it was powerful and could've potentially made me rethink the whole concept of "russian" or nationality.

Prema-bhakti Marga - April 18, 2007 10:54 pm

I think it's good to make the distinction to the public (or whoever asks) that we are not Hare Krishnas, and not give the 'We are and aren't" answer. Why not just separate ourselves clearly from the image that the world has of the Hare Krishnas?
We don't have to explain or justify ourselves through ISKCON or their standards. They just can't impose any rules or standars on us, because we have nothing to do with the institutional structure of ISKCON.

Let's just stop feeling any guilt or need for justification in their eyes and carry on with our own mission with Guru Maharaja steering the boat. That will take us so much further in our spiritual lives than trying to find some kind of a middle ground.

I have to agree with Guru Nistha. I was affiliated with ISKCON for almost twenty years before I left and I felt even before I took shelter of GM that I did not want to be associated with ISKCON which is who the "Hare Krsnas" are. I don't know of any other Gaudiya group saddled with that nickname. So I have always felt it to be synonymous with ISKCON. If people ask what religion I am or what group I am affiliated with I say I am a Gaudiya Vaisnava or perhaps a Hindu (depending on the situation). If they know a little something about ISKCON, I say that I am affiliated with a different mission and if they ask further for clarification I say that ISKCON is a fundamentalist sect of GV or something to that effect. But honestly I don't have the same experience as some of you that everything has to be measured against ISKCON.

I personally don't find that ISKCON is as well known, visible or (un)popular at least in the US as it was in the 70's or maybe even the eighties and most people will name another yoga group or Buddhist group to me if I mention Krsna worship rather than ISKCON or the Hare Krsnas. That's been my experience.

The Buddhists however are everywhere even at my Home Depot so when Dhanurdhara Swami visits us in his robes and people wave and are friendly and later they ask me if he's a Buddhist monk, I appreciate that the Buddhist's profile/presentation has become acceptable in mainstream society.

In February when we were on our retreat in Vrndavana and someone asked us if we were ISKCON, GM would just say no. Sometimes he would say, "No, Sri Caitanya Sangha."

Jason - April 18, 2007 11:52 pm

I would be interested to hear more from Gaurangi and maybe Gopisvara too. I know that he's always doing service at the Berkeley temple. I'm sort of on the fence, in that personally, I recognize that there is something quite different b/t the philosophical presentation of ISKCON and that of GM--so, in a sense I'm not a Hare Krishna, but to the general public, I agree that they don't always recognize the difference...so in that sense, when I'm talking with people, I often have to give the "yes, but not really" line.

I do agree with Prema, and I mean no offense to those who are on sankirtana daily pushing so hard, but MOST people don't know who the Hare Krishnas are; especially a lot of the younger generation. Those who remember the Hare Krishnas (at least 90% of people I've met) see them as a cultural anomoly; a bad joke. So, as a devotee, we've gotta be a bit discerning in how we present ourselves. We don't want to be seen in that light.

Nitai, I agree...I'm not opposed to International Krsna Consiousness, but I don't think that ISKCON is the best presentation. GM left that mission, took Srila Prabhupada in his heart and did his own thing. He made a decision (and to some degree he had no real choice) and ran with it. We should work to present ourselves how he would like us to be seen. I think that Gaurangi Priya and Gopisvara and others are doing that...working cooperatively, as much as they are permitted to do so, because they have some interest in keeping on good terms with ISKCON/being with friends and family. I don't think that's wrong. I'm sure that they have heard offensive things in the past, yet they still go and do service. Surely they are setting an example. It speaks to the caliber of Maharaja's disciples that's for sure. I think that as time goes on there will be more non-ISKCON persons present at ISKCON functions (unless other missions/sangas can really start to create that sense of community). They may not have the philosophy, but they've got the community. Especially because there are so many gurukulis who couldn't care less about politics, but aren't willing to give up the greater sense of community that ISKCON has. The pervading "mood" in those temples and in those circles will change with time. It's already happening. I think that is why GM has always been in favor of his students building devotee communities in their respective areas. Community is where it's at.

Anyway, this is all quite a fine line...it comes down to personal choices. If having one foot in and one foot out of ISKCON is detrimental in some way then we shouldn't put ourselves in that situation. For some, it doesn't appear to be an issue. However, in a strange way, I think that GM still has a significant place in ISKCON. Almost EVERY senior Prabhupada disciple that I know....and that's quite a few...who are still in ISKCON....fully appreciate GM, his presentation, his books, etc. They speak highly of him. They have almost all said to me on one ocassion or another that while they consider themselves part of ISKCON (perhaps just out of not knowing anything different), they say that the GBC resolutions really have no relevance to them and their daily lives. GBC decicions and mandates are really a non-issue to them. I'm sure this isn't the feeling everywhere, but in my experience, they just see GM as having another mission....no big deal.

Maharaja and his mission are clearly in a unique position. I think in one recent lecture GM referred to his group as a unusual breed...haa!

Vivek - April 19, 2007 3:09 am

I myself will hate myself to be called a "Hare Krsna", but what imeant is it doesnt stop me from doing service in the temple and you have to tactful many times to avoid controversial issues because some people have a very rigid opinion.

But like Maharaja spoke in the Swami Call last sunday this issue can be classified a multiple choice area so everybody can make different decisions according to his heart and circumstance and we can leave it at it.

Vrindavandas - April 19, 2007 5:31 am

I am proud to call myself a Hare Krishna, and am proud to be called a Hare Krishna (even by those in jest). I was going to stay silent, but I guess I have to put my 2 cents in on this one. This is a very special subject for me because I have served within ISKCON for so many years (going on 14) and I am a disciple of Guru Maharaja and serve Audarya as well. I personally see no conflict of interest and I personally believe that ISKCON has done more and does do more to bring Gaudiya Vaisnavism to the world than every other group put together. When Prabhupada's godbrothers complained about not being on the GBC, he told them that they could put one on the board to represent them collectively because his disciples were doing 11/12 of the work all over the world. If we look at this objectively, it is easy to see that ISKCON has the media, schools, outreach, etc. that is unrivaled in the Vaisnava world community. I find that those who are criticizing ISKCON the most are those who have never run a business or never worked in a large corporate structure. Given the crisis that every group goes through after the charismatic leader passes, I feel that ISKCON has been doing a pretty decent job in trying to manage, lead, preach and grow up all at the same time. When you have a large corporate structure, be it Walmart, or the Catholic Church, there must be set values and principles to guide the institution otherwise it will fail. Here are a list of leader behaviors that many corporations implement (this comes from my company's website)

• Shared accountability and transparency

• Cross-functional teamwork and collaboration

• Listening and learning

• Benchmark and continuously improve

• Coaching and developing others

• Business integrity

While these leader behaviors have not been perfected in ISKCON, they are being worked on diligently behind the scenes among a large cross section of leaders and management. It has only been 30 years since Prabhupada has left us, a lot of mistakes have been made, a lot of feelings have been hurt, yet also a lot of good has been done. So many people can complain about being wronged by this guy and that guy and this temple doesn't like me because I am a disciple of this guru. Well, unfortunately everyone goes through this at some point or another and when it happens do you give up and complain, or do you look within yourself to see how you can grow from the experience and be a better devotee? I am quite certain that it is the tone of the individual that sets them up for success or failure and criticizing really isn't going to get anyone anywhere. At some point in time, I believe that Lord Caitanya's vision for a world sankirtan movement will come to fruition. It's okay to disagree with one another; it's also okay to work with one another as well. I will leave you all with a quote from former president Teddy Roosevelt. This particular quote sums up my sentiments perfectly and I challenge you all to read it, own it, and ask yourself am I part of the problem or the solution?

It is not the critic who counts. Not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause. Who, at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.

-- Theodore Roosevelt --

Gopisvara Dasa - April 19, 2007 5:47 am

I have been involved with Iskcon for as long as I have known Guru Maharaja(25 years). He was in Iskcon at the time and was the first devotee I ever met. I can certainly understand and empathize with the distaste and frustration with the Iskcon situation. Nonetheless, there are many nice devotees within its fold. I have many good friends there,mostly Prabhupada disciples,many who have read Sridhara Maharaja's books,have heard Guru Maharaja speak,been to Audarya,talked to Guru Maharaja in Vrndavan,expressed a desire to visit Audarya,etc.,etc.

I used to dislike San Francisco and thought it didn't deserve to be a part of California and all the people there were somehow lesser. I held a similar view of Iskcon and actually stayed away for some months once. It isn't neccessarily reasonable to dismiss a whole city or a whole mission unequivocally(for Guru Maharaja it was). Believe me,I did my share of Iskcon bashing. For years, I argued with devotees about Sridhara Maharaja,offenses,sectarianism,fundamentalism,dogmatism,etc. I used to think that anyone who didn't leave Iskcon was hopelessly flawed. I now don't think that would have neccessarily been the most practical thing to do.

I finally realized,these people are Krishna's devotees,no matter how confused they may be. Bhakti has smiled on them. Several years ago,I decided to take a different approach.Instead of focusing on the misgivings of others,I focused on my own,trying to set the best example I could of someone who wasn't bogged down with misconceptions or political distractions. I have to say, it was an incredible success as people are much more inclined to listen to me now than ever before. Also putting aside the idea that I was better than everybody else was very healthy as that idea runs contrary to humility.My conception may have been better,but now let me put that into practice.

I am asked to lead kirtans every week and am told that they are of a deep devotional mood,in spite of the fact that I speak out strongly against appasiddhanta and offenses in the institution. I was talking to the president one time, and in the course of the conversation, I criticized (nicely) everything about Iskcon. And when he said that the GBC is the final authority,I said "that's nonsense,the guru is the final authority",he continued to ask me to lead kirtan and respected me more. There is power in truth when it is presented nicely.

A couple of weeks ago,2 GBC men came to the temple and the president asked me in advance to lead kirtan(it used to be "hide the non-Iskcon people,the GBC are coming") to make a good impression. Afterwards I had a nice talk with one of them. They were both very nice. I had already been prepared to tell the president "they are company men,they identify more with the institution than the philosophy",but that wasn't the case.

Sometimes there are visiting personalities there who represent all that is wrong with the society.When that happens I get visually pensive as to say "we are trying to have a civilization here" and speak out instructively to anyone who might understand. And of course, I don't care much for their resolutions,nor do I know much what they are. My focus is spiritual not political,essential not mental.

This is a major Gaudiya mission and they could use some emissaries representing a higher conception. Krishna says in Gita 18.68 "For one who explains this supreme secret to the devotees, pure devotional service is guaranteed, and at the end he will come back to Me."

So I feel something like that,although I am the one who is in need of purification.

Although I lament that I am not serving Guru Maharaja directly(I do that too)my situation is very complicated and proximity and psychology,etc. make going to Iskcon a worthwhile endeavor.

Madhavendra Puri Dasa - April 19, 2007 8:33 am

Thank you Gopisvar and Vrindavan for your posts. I have similar experience. Though I am fed up with sectarianism, and arrogance of many Iskcon devotees, that I was witnessing living in the temples and farm communities in the same time I met many opeminded and sincere devotees who are serving Iskcon faithfully, and in the same time they respect other spiritual movements, and they dont follow blindly GBC.

I have still friends who serve in Iskcon, we stay in touch and we talk openly about different, often controversial issues, they are openminded, and I hope that with time, when "old kings" pass away, movement will purify itself. Even now there are gurus who read books by Sridhar Maharaja (one of my friends told my lately how he was suprised when he entered to the room of his guru Kavicandra Swami, and found on his bookshelf all set of Sridhar Maharaj's books), or even by Swami. Gaura Sakti told us here how Krsna Ksetra Prabhu was inspired to read Swami's Bhagavad Gita. His servant was saying that he spend days reading it without the break :Nail Biting:

I am sure there is more devotees, and devotees-leaders like that.

Nitai Joseph - April 19, 2007 1:32 pm

Nitai wrote:
But I feel like to the extent that ISKCON is not polluted and to the extent that my motives are not polluted, to that degree I am part of ISKCON. After all, I'm in favor of International Krsna Consciousness.

This sentence brings out the point I was trying to make: ISKCON and international Krsihna Consciousness are not the same thing. Why even use the term ISKCON for an international community for gaudiya vaishnavas?

I did not mean this as ISKCON is synonymous with International Krsna Concsiousness. I meant that that being their professed goal, as much as they are synonymous, is as much as I am in favor of them. "Why even use the term ISKCON for an international community for gaudiya vaishnavas?"---well that is exactly what ISKCON is, however adequate or inadequate. Of course they are not the exclusive international community, but they are an international community.

I really like Gopisvara's post, I have very little experience in any circle, including ISKCON, and to hear these stories is quite enlivening, because my small experience has been somewhat close-minded side. I think that he made an important point. Example is better then precept. I have been staying next door to an ISKCON temple in Baltimore, and going there everyday. I mainly associate with 3 brahmachari disciples of the "Bhaktisiddhanta like", Bhakti Vikas Swami. I talk about Swami, and things I've heard form him etc. Last week I told them I was going to Audarya. One said to me that although he had no knowledge of Swami, other then his book distibution glories(and of course not being in ISKCON), he trusted my judgment after being with me for a few months, and therefore considers Swami quite qualified. He is even looking forward to corresponding with me once I am there, to hear my realizations, and if I feel I am advancing.

So the most important thing(if I can make such a sweeping statement) is how we act, whether we interact with ISKCON devotees or not, but especially if we do. There is a phrase, "Cut 'em down with love". Jai!

Guru-nistha Das - April 19, 2007 4:14 pm

Many devotees are bringing up the point that there are a lot of nice devotees in ISKCON who don't care about the GBC etc. and I heartily agree. I never tried to put up this "us vs. them" setting in the sense that I'd lump together the whole movement as fanatical aparadhis or something like that.

It is certainly true, that good example is way more powerful than confrontation and polarisation, but cosider this:

how much more powerful an example would it be if we all gave our full focus to our own mission and would build up communities according to Guru Maharaja's vision? That would speak so loudly. Instead of having individual devotees giving good example, a spiritual community would be like a billboard on your front lawn. And to be able to do this, we have to direct our efforts into it, and to commit wholeheaertedly.

Like I've said before, my point is that we have the strength to reform this thing and I know Guru Mahraja wants this, he wants to give a new, prestigious face for Gaudiya Vaishnavism in the modern world and we as his disciples would do good helping him manifest this. ISKCON undoubtedly has a lot of good things in it, but they would never agree to co-operate with us according to Guru Maharaja's vision and personally I don't think we should make compromises in this regard. It may seem reasonalble at this time in history to co-operate with such a huge mission, but I'm pretty sure that the future will show that the wisest thing right now would be to boldly go our own way.

Because GM's view is way too radical and progressive for the vast majority of ISKCON and it will only slow us down if we try to convince them of this. Believe me Guru Maharaja has been hitting his head on a wall for 20 years trying to do this, and it's not going to happen in a large scale, although there are individuals who are favorable. Let do our own thing and if ISKCON becomes favorable, great! If it doesn't then let's not waste our valuable time on them.

Having said this, I would also like to make the point that clearly separating ourselves from ISKCON or the Hare Krishna label doesn't mean that we'd have to become enemies or that we'd cut all ties with them. What I meant to say was that we certainly should have friendly dealings with all gaudiyas but not that we do it on their terms. We do our own thing and avoid a party spirit or a sense of superiority but if someone disapproves of us, why try to play according to their rules?

I see this situation as growing up in a dysfunctional family. When you become an adult, you get married and possibly change your surname, you get your own life so to speak, but if your parents approve of you, you'll have a bond and friendly dealings, as two grown ups would have. I wouldn't want to stay in my parents' house for the rest of my life if they'd have different ideas of how to succesfully live one's life, and try to give a good impression so that they'd finally accept me. Acceptance must come through being what you are and standing for what you believe in, not from sacrificing your heart's vision in order to "get along".

Vivek - April 19, 2007 4:47 pm

That is true guru-nistha about the relative truth being given less importance when the absolute is in question. But still in Indian society or even vedic society you do proceed with caution when you go against parents or against your friends or give up your svadharma for the higher cause. But yes ultimately we have to do that but for that everyone should be at your level of advancement.

I myself also am planning to do something for Maharaja and i agree that his views are too radical to be accepted by ISKCON but I was just saying that living away from audarya sometimes ISKCON is a way to atleast get deity darshan and do service. Obviously when I move closer to california which i hope to do, I want to exclusively devote myself to maharaj's vision.

I am very inspired by your example guru nistha and I hope I can do something worthwhile following in your footsteps.

Prema-bhakti Marga - April 19, 2007 5:12 pm

It is certainly true, that good example is way more powerful than confrontation and polarisation, but cosider this:
how much more powerful an example would it be if we all gave our full focus to our own mission and would build up communities according to Guru Maharaja's vision? That would speak so loudly. Instead of having individual devotees giving good example, a spiritual community would be like a billboard on your front lawn. And to be able to do this, we have to direct our efforts into it, and to commit wholeheaertedly.

Like I've said before, my point is that we have the strength to reform this thing and I know Guru Mahraja wants this, he wants to give a new, prestigious face for Gaudiya Vaishnavism in the modern world and we as his disciples would do good helping him manifest this. ISKCON undoubtedly has a lot of good things in it, but they would never agree to co-operate with us according to Guru Maharaja's vision and personally I don't think we should make compromises in this regard. It may seem reasonalble at this time in history to co-operate with such a huge mission, but I'm pretty sure that the future will show that the wisest thing right now would be to boldly go our own way.

Because GM's view is way too radical and progressive for the vast majority of ISKCON and it will only slow us down if we try to convince them of this. Believe me Guru Maharaja has been hitting his head on a wall for 20 years trying to do this, and it's not going to happen in a large scale, although there are individuals who are favorable. Let do our own thing and if ISKCON becomes favorable, great! If it doesn't then let's not waste our valuable time on them.

Having said this, I would also like to make the point that clearly separating ourselves from ISKCON or the Hare Krishna label doesn't mean that we'd have to become enemies or that we'd cut all ties with them. What I meant to say was that we certainly should have friendly dealings with all gaudiyas but not that we do it on their terms. We do our own thing and avoid a party spirit or a sense of superiority but if someone disapproves of us, why try to play according to their rules?

I agree with you wholeheartledly Guru Nistha.

I have known much wiser and liberal devotees and leaders in ISKCON that appreciate Sridhara Maharaja more than just having his books on their shelves but when it comes to GM they can't seem to make the philosophical connection between Sridhara Maharaja and GM for a variety of reasons. They visit GM, they appreciate him and all his ideas but when it gets down to it they want him to participate in ISKCON on their terms which means keeping Sridhara Maharaja in the background. Obviously they still can't fully comprehend the concept of siksa guru. I am not talking about rank and file devotees or fanatics here but learned devotees in good standing.

The bottom line for me personally is if an instituiton cannot respect GM enough to apologize or lift their ban against him or even accept him as he is in all his glory then I don't want to go there, assist, or support that institution. That said , I respect others who need the social structure of ISKCON and feel some affiliation with ISKCON. This is just my personal conviction.

Actions speak louder than words especially in the case of ISKCON which seems overly caught up on externals. So it is logical that the examples of developing a viable, sane community of vaisnavas given in GN's comments will have a good affect on ISKCON too as well as the greater Gaudiya community as well as outreach to the modern world. I am personaly willing to put my time and energy in that effort.

Shyam Gopal Das - April 19, 2007 5:25 pm

It is interesting to see how the discussion went from I don't affiliate myself/identify with iskcon (I don't call myself a Hare Krishna) to I don't associate with Iskcon. To me these are separate issues and the reasons why I don't call myself a Hare Krishna are not necessarily the same as why I don't associate much with iskcon in general.

Vamsidhari Dasa - April 19, 2007 8:54 pm

Thanks Gurunistha for your brave comments. It is exactly a kind of thing I like to read. We are so lucky to have GM and to serve his vision. So much energy vasted on looking at ISCKON. It is good to make a distinction between individuals and the institution, but you know, at the end of the day, those who are intelligent leave an insitution that is just wrong. There are good and bad people (and everything in between) everywhere so what? I have nothing against people I am talking about institutional policies and practices. They are the ones I want to distance myself from. I am always so shocked when peole cannot see this. I am cognizant that there are many people on T-V who are tied to ISCKON by families, friends, and sometimes they do not have the good fortune to be close to Audarya so they have to visit the ISCKON temple. But as GM says the Deity is an expression of Sadhus heart, so when you go to the ISCKON TEmple who do you see at the altar? We do have an insitutio to build and support and thatnk God we have ample guidence for how to do that. Why do we need to know GBC resolutions?

And thank you Prema Bhakti for saying what you did. I think that what you said needs to be repeated over and over again until people get it. Maybe I am missing something. I feel so much like you that I cannot have any respect for the institution that propagates enemical attitude towards GM and has caused him so much suffering through the years. One of their resolutions was to austersize GM. They show him no proper regard and it is sickening. Just take numerous Rathayatra incidents as an example. He left it for a reason. So when I hear ISKCON this or that I just want to say WHO CARES, WHO CARES ad infinitum.

I am so tired of people saying how ISCKON is relevant, has to be regarded, has to be respected, for the reasons that make no sense. I think they are all based on personal attachments and aspirations and I think those should be examined. Its time to cut the cord! How can people put their time, effort and money in the institution that treats GM in such ways? What do you have to do with the knowledge you have about his experience of the past 20 years? We are not a devotional rehab, always have to work on the baggage people bring with them from they experience with ISKCON. We should not be compared to it or anything. Always looking at that we do differently, what we sing or not how we compare to the mother ship. Well, there is no mothership and again I do not care what they do.

When we wre in Vrindavan first they asked if we were ISKCON, then if we were Narayan Maharaja's group, and so on. It was annoying more then anything else. As if that made any difference to me how they are going to flatter me or the group I am associated with just so that I can buy more things from them. I really did not care who knew GM or not (most people did and showed him proper regard), we do and that is more then enough.

Nitai Joseph - April 19, 2007 9:28 pm

I think you made excellent points Guru-Nishta. If nothing else this conversation is really exciting me for coming to Audarya! Since really my understanding of Swami's mission is probably quite inadequate. Also to be in the direct association of people who can enlighten me as to what this mission is about and the importance of it.

I do feel like Vamsi's statements are a little too broad. But I should remember I'm completely new to this game, and have very little experience to base my opinions off of. While I was reading that last post I was thinking about Karnamrita and Archana-siddhi. I think they are doing quite amazing service to Swami, while simultaneously serving the institution that "propagates an inimical attitude towards Swami". I mean, I wouldn't be going to Audarya with hopes of staying if it wasn't for Arcana and Karnam. And some of Swami's initiated disciples would not be that if it wasn't for their relationship with Swami, combined with living in an unnoficial ISKCON community. Also they can take Swami's conception and secretly inject it into the society, by example, and even by precept.

Anyway, I apologize if it is glaringly evident to everyone but me that what I am saying is naive and immature, but can't blame a kid for tryin'. :Nail Biting:

Vamsidhari Dasa - April 19, 2007 9:39 pm

Nitai Joseph,

I cannot comment on people that I do not know and I do not want to make judgements. I know that Karnamrita and Archana-sidhi are great people and devotees and I would not dream of offending them or any one. I have nothing against individuals nor I wish to be interpreted as saying something against any one in particular. That is why my statements are broad. However, I know that some people will be offended by what I say and I just humbly ask them to examine their ties to the institution as we know it and why they would be offended. I am not inventing anything.

I just do not understand the statement like "Iskcon migh be bad but x and y are good people." What does that have to do with anything? There are also many bad people in ISKCON, so what?

Nanda-tanuja Dasa - April 19, 2007 9:45 pm

Behold, Vamsi is tasting raudra and vira rasas :Nail Biting:

Currently we do not have book distribution and don't do sankirtan on streets, but it doesn’t mean we never will. If we do, we will be “Hare Krishnas”, even if we wearing bandis instead of kurtas and saris. Though we declared independence from the mother ship still we will have some connection in people’s minds, just because we sing “Hare Krsna!” So, it’s good to be aware of what is going on with the mother ship, maybe it’s already used a death ray on a city, so we shouldn’t expect a welcoming party of locals. Live Long and Prosper!

Vamsidhari Dasa - April 19, 2007 9:48 pm

Actually, NT I was just tasting some falafel with humus maybe that is why my ignorance is so rampant. :Nail Biting: and by the way no I do not think that we ever will...............

Nanda-tanuja Dasa - April 19, 2007 9:51 pm

too bad......... Haribolo! Haribolo!!! :Nail Biting:

Vivek - April 20, 2007 3:03 am

Vamsidhari prabhu, your point is good but you are taking guru nistha's response too far. You are blaming all people who stay in ISKCON, not everybody is fortunate like us to have Maharaja's association. So if you are places where there is nothing except ISKCON do you leave ISKCON and stop devotional service or ignore external difficulties and focus on essentials. We have to sympathetic to people who dont have any access to anything else apart from ISKCON. The person about whom brahma prabhu has posted the thread about his disechantment with institutions, what good is it doing for him. By avoiding all institutions, he is just not able to keep up his devotion.

I think it will be good if you are sensitive to plight of people who dont have any option except ISKCON.

Anyway I know that Maharaja's vision is pretty different and farsighted and not within the grasp of ISKCON so we have to work towards it , but without condemning people who have no choice except ISKCON( like in most places in russia, eastern europe, germany, UK or even india how much choice you have apart from ISKCON) And it not as if narayana maharaj's camp is very great for people either. What should they do, just indulge in sense gratification after being upset at an institution.

Shyam Gopal Das - April 20, 2007 3:59 am

Here's a thought: Where you give is where you'll go.

I think it will be good if you are sensitive to plight of people who dont have any option except ISKCON.

Vivek, think about this. What you are saying is a matter of perspective, because what do you mean they have no other option? If you follow Guru Maharaj, you have lots of options. We as his disciples need to take responsibility and follow up on what Guru Maharaj is telling us. And yes I know that is not easy, but we should at least try.

Vivek - April 20, 2007 4:11 am

I didnt talk about us, I talked about devotees who didnt have that option of getting access to Maharaja. We can emphathize with their plight. But yes apart from that from my side i have a long way to go before I come to your standard but i am not a brahman yet, so you can be patient with me.

Guru-nistha Das - April 20, 2007 4:22 am

I very much appreciate this discussion and I think that it's absolutely crucial to sharpen our focus as a community so that we can better serve Guru Maharaja's vision. Afterall, Guru Maharaja's vision and standing in bhakti are the only reasons why we have all come together so my opinion is that we shouldn't leave it half-way.

I understand that there will always be different levels of commitment and it's scary to seriously commit to something, but only then can we be a real lively spiritual community when our relationships are based on service under our guru, not just having a general interest in bhakti and a similar psychological makeup.

Vivek - April 20, 2007 4:27 am

I agree with you completly guru nistha but i was saying that we can emphathize with people who stay in ISKCON(not from our group) as in remote places of the world that is the only way you cant practise vaisnavism with some association,

Margaret Dale - April 20, 2007 4:34 am

I have read several posts about GM's mission. While I am absolutely 100% committed to anything that he wants, I am not familiar with the current shape of his vision. Can someone closer give an update or a relevant thread? Thanks.

Vamsidhari Dasa - April 20, 2007 5:57 am

Vivek, I am not too much concerned with the plight of those who are in remote areas, who dont know GM or apparently do not have a choice but to belong to ISKCON. I am, however, very much concerned for those among us who do have a choice. I want our group to forget about iskcon, really and focus on what we are here to do. In case I was not clear before. I think that many of us, due to our histories with ISKCON cannot let it go and that is, in my not so humble opinion, nocive to our spiritual progress and committment to GM. I want people to examine those ties. I like to take things to far so that I can make a point, not very interested here in smoothing things over or harmonizing, or helping those who are in ISKCon to see the light. I only care to make my contribution here how ever small it might be.

Madhavendra Puri Dasa - April 20, 2007 9:42 am

I would like to add few words. I dont know you guys personally, but I have high regard for you, because of your connection with Swami and his teachings. Please dont take it wrong, but while I agree that as disciple u got to be loyal and concetrated on the mission of your guru, in the same time I think that we have to be careful not to become seperatists, like basically many of Iskcon devotees have become. Therefore I am always litlle bit touchy when I see labeling of whole institution as an offenders, fanatics etc, specially when it is so big and varieted as Iskcon. I dont say it because I am still connected with Iskcon (actually I am not at all, I am trying to find alternative sanga of devotees, meanwhile I dont have any devotional company).

Frankly speaking I say it because I am very attracted to your sanga, and Swami, but I am still in the stage of "checking it out" and making sure that this is really what I want, and I am litlle bit oversensitive about any symptoms of enemity, or generalization in dealings with other Vaisnava groups (that I could experience for years in Iskcon).

So basically my concern is- are u not afraid, that in the name of guru bhakti there is a danger of become seperatist movement? I can see it not only in Iskcon but also amongs Narayana Maharaja's disciples, in SCSM, and I am sure there is many other groups that fall into this trap. Please could you share some reflections about this topic? Thanks.

Gaurangi-priya Devi - April 20, 2007 1:35 pm

Again, I find it extremely uncompassionate for devotees to make strong statements like never associating with an institution that doesn't respect GM, when those devotees live in or near Audarya. If Audarya is ready to make a spiritual community, than I'll consider moving there. And spiritual community means a lot. It means providing spiritually for the children with a devotee run school, or at least a Sunday school, having spiritual dramas, having devotee friends for them to play with. It means thinking of taking care of devotees when they get old. It means having a law system if someone in the community violates the spiritual law or the devotees. I'm eager to have a spiritual community headed by GM. Really eager. But until that manifests, I'm not going to have some weird political pride, and not associate with a temple that is ten minutes from my house. I'm not going to tell my kids that their is a distinction between this deity of Radha-Krsna and this one. This political crap makes me sickened. And I'm sick of having to feel like a lesser disciple of GM, because I don't refuse to associate with ISKCON. And these kinds of statements are exactly the thing ISKCON devotees say about the Gaudiya Math. "Well, I'm not even going to support or go to the temple of a Gaudiya Math devotee because they don't fully support Prabhupada." Is that what we'll become? An offshoot of ISKCON, who refuses to be connected with it.

In my community the majority of sannyasis that visit don't even have programs at the temple. They have them at devotees homes. So when GM comes it's no less different. It's another program at a devotees home. And many devotees, disciples of all different ISKCON gurus, will come and hear from him. Yea, not as many that will come when Indradyumna Swami comes, but many will come. Just the other day a devotee came to my home for the first time and say my initiation photo. She asked about my guru and I told her all about him. She was saddened to hear that he can't come to the temple, but was very excited and said at the end, "I can't wait to meet him." But, I tend to feel that having ISKCON devotees in favor of GM is just a burden for this group. That's what I feel like. Like, "Oh great, we have to deal with one of those people from ISKCON with all that baggage." Yea, it may be easier to make fresh devotees, but somehow this is the way Krsna has arranged it, and GM inspires a lot of people within ISKCON.

Like Jason said, gurukulis are not that political (accept when it comes to Dhanurdhara Swami!), or institutional. They accept Krsna where-ever He comes. Like when I told one gurukuli friend who I was initiated by, she said, "Krsna is Krsna. It doesn't matter who He comes to you through." And really that's what I want to be. A devotee of Krsna. And if the local temple of Krsna engages me in service and utilizes my talents in service to Krsna, I'm going to go. And every time I do do service and am asked to do service, I see it as respect to GM. Yea, it's not the best respect. The best would be to have them apologize and allow him to the temple. And eventually I think it will happen. When we have a monthly bhajan and devotees come to our house and chant to our guru-parampara which includes GM and Shridar Maharaj, they are respecting them. Until then I create my own sanga with like-minded devotees wherever they come from. God, there are so few Gaudiya Vaisnavas in this world. Are we going to further isolate ourselves within that group of Gaudiya Vaisnavas?

Nitai Joseph - April 20, 2007 2:01 pm

I just want to apologize to anyone if by starting this post someone has been offended or upset. That was not my intention. As someone who at the moment is more "in" ISKCON then some on this site, I thought it would be nice to discuss the resolutions, in order to understand where our philosophy has been applied properly and where not.

That being said, I do think this is healthy discussion, and apparently necessary. It seems to me that anything a group of devotees, who are closely tied to such a progressive dynamic conception, strongly disagree about, must have importance and relevance.

Again my apologies if anyone would have proffered this thread to not exist.

Prema-bhakti Marga - April 20, 2007 2:06 pm

Again, I find it extremely uncompassionate for devotees to make strong statements like never associating with an institution that doesn't respect GM, when those devotees live in or near Audarya. If Audarya is ready to make a spiritual community, than I'll consider moving there. And spiritual community means a lot. It means providing spiritually for the children with a devotee run school, or at least a Sunday school, having spiritual dramas, having devotee friends for them to play with. It means thinking of taking care of devotees when they get old. It means having a law system if someone in the community violates the spiritual law or the devotees. I'm eager to have a spiritual community headed by GM. Really eager. But until that manifests, I'm not going to have some weird political pride, and not associate with a temple that is ten minutes from my house. I'm not going to tell my kids that their is a distinction between this deity of Radha-Krsna and this one. This political crap makes me sickened. And I'm sick of having to feel like a lesser disciple of GM, because I don't refuse to associate with ISKCON. And these kinds of statements are exactly the thing ISKCON devotees say about the Gaudiya Math. "Well, I'm not even going to support or go to the temple of a Gaudiya Math devotee because they don't fully support Prabhupada." Is that what we'll become? An offshoot of ISKCON, who refuses to be connected with it.

I hope my posts didn't make you too sick Gaurangi, :Just Kidding:

I want to at least clarify where I am coming from, I have a certain personal conviction that I no longer want to associate with ISKCON for the reasons I already stated in my previous post. That doesn't mean I am being political or that I am looking down on anyone. It's my personal conviction. GM has very few resources and I want to devote whatever I can to his mission. Yes, people who live near Audarya may have more access to GM and his association but currently there is still no greater community for grhastas or lay people , etc. I see it as a kind of austerity as a pioneer in the mission, a labor of love and as GN points out if we all direct our energy towards GM's mission to whatever capacity we can his vison will manifest in time.

Others like yourself feel a connection to ISKCON and need the social structure, etc. I personally respect that and GM gives allowance for his disciples to be connected to ISKCON, serve in ISKCON, etc.

In terms of ISKCON being SP's mission and him being our param guru and therefore having a historical connection to ISKCON as stated in one of your previous posts, I see it a bit differently. For me, I found that over the years it has been more and more difficult to experience SP and his vision and person in the context of ISKCON. In my humble opinion ISKCON has become too removed from SP's actual vision as well as having so many philosophical misconceptions woven into its collective fabric as well as a lack of strong leadership, etc. I really feel a stronger connection and presence of SP in GM and his mission and that inspires me. I found a person and a mission where I have full faith and where I can grow. That was the bottom line for me.

Jason - April 20, 2007 5:22 pm

I don't think that anyone here, should feel that this discussion is in vain....I think it's really, really, important. We are the face of GM in our respective locations. In what light should we represent him? Vamsi and Guru-nistha, I love you're strong position and dedication. I really do appreciate that. I would be lying if I didn't say that to some degree, I agree with you. Then again, I've got to look at persons like Gaurangi-priya, Gopisvara, Vrindavan and others as well. Their standing up and supporting GM in the immediate face of some obstacles surely attests to their conviction. They are no less dedicated then devotees who are closer to Audarya. Now, when broad, sweeping statements are said, implying that we should just forget about ISKCON, I can't rally behind that. I CAN rally behind forgetting about bogus GBC mandates/policies that have no bearing on the day-to-day spiritual lives of devotees and opting for pointing out flaws in philosophy to those willing to inquire about GM and his position and presentation. I can walk to the Berkeley temple and see the beautiful deities there, blocking out all the negative and steering clear from unfavorable situations. Should I really just never go there again? Just because there are some weirdos and some of them take issue with GM? I don't think that's the answer (though admittedly, sometimes I want to throw up my hands and do just that).

Below is an email I wrote to Prema....

"I appreciate both sides, and believe me, I could just as easily never step foot in an ISKCON temple again, but I think that the one thing that ISKCON has (albeit oftentimes achieved by rallying sentiment around poor knowledge of siddhanta), is community. GM has a small, scattered community....and that's great! In all honesty, most of his disciples are quite smart, and "fixed up" and do quite well, it seems, with balancing spiritual and material life despite the obstacle of geography. Again, this attests to the power of GM's guidance.

However, there are others who really like that larger sense of community. And what if they want to go see the Deities? Attend events? Visit with family/friends in a service atmosphere? Not all in ISKCON are bad apples, and while I appreciate Vamsi's dedication to GM and his mission, he (and others) may be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I at least support Nanda-tanuja's position that, for lack of a better catchphrase, we should "keep our friends close and our enemies closer." Just as ISKCON is abreast of the "goings ons" of other missions (GM, Narayana Maharaja, etc.), our "camp" should not voluntarily keep ourselves in the dark about their developments. We should not be so naive to think that "THEY" aren't aware of what's going on with other Gaudiya groups. That said, PR is of some relevance.

While there may be individual, personal reasons for some of us to remove ourselves from ISKCON, I don't think we should see that option as mandatory. In fact, considering GM's desire to do more outreach within the yoga community, creating such an "us vs. them" mood, may prove to be a poor marketing strategy.

And understand, I am in NO WAY saying that GM has any desire or any need to piggyback on the inroads that ISKCON may have made into the general public in the time since he has been gone. Clearly GM has the potency and blessings of his gurus to push forward in a dynamic way without needing any other group to fall back on. There may be bridges that we don't want to use if we don't have to...but we don't need to burn them.

I guess that I'm just not completely ready to give up on ISKCON as an institution. Why? Because, as I said, I think that there is a growing number of ISKCON-affiliated devotees (senior and otherwise), who do appreciate GM, his presentation of our philosophy and are favorable towards those who took siksa from Srila Sridhara Maharaja. Granted, their voice in ISKCON is stifled, and quite possibly they are hesitant to speak up and rock the already unsteady boat, nevertheless, as bad as this sounds, when the GBC starts to die out, others will need to step up to the plate. I think that by maintaining cordial ties with the institution, GM and his sanga put themselves in a better position in the future for cohesion into the greater community of devotees."

Nanda-tanuja Dasa - April 20, 2007 6:09 pm

I'm not going to tell my kids that their is a distinction between this deity of Radha-Krsna and this one. This political crap makes me sickened. And I'm sick of having to feel like a lesser disciple of GM, because I don't refuse to associate with ISKCON. And these kinds of statements are exactly the thing ISKCON devotees say about the Gaudiya Math. "Well, I'm not even going to support or go to the temple of a Gaudiya Math devotee because they don't fully support Prabhupada." Is that what we'll become? An offshoot of ISKCON, who refuses to be connected with it.

Bravo! I was hoping that spirit of Vrinda Kunja and WVA will make our hearts softer: All Vaisnavas belong to one family, belong to the same tree of Lord Caitanya. Like Guru Maharaja said -- spiritual life is not black or white, it has many shades of gray.

Vivek - April 20, 2007 6:28 pm

Bravo! I was hoping that spirit of Vrinda Kunja and WVA will make our hearts softer: All Vaisnavas belong to one family, belong to the same tree of Lord Caitanya. Like Guru Maharaja said -- spiritual life is not black or white, it has many shades of gray.

Thank you nanda tanuja prabhu for your great comments. I never understand how devotees are not able to see the humility of sanatana gosvami or haridas thakur, or amabarisha maharaja, or sridhar maharaja but always have to use agression to support their views. I mean many people like madhavendra puri prabhu have come to sangha so that they get clear conception of siddhanata and not a sectarian concept which is prevalent in ISKCON or other groups, but if maharaja's own disciples have a very neophyte understanding of guru tattva it will stifle any good preaching anyway.

Also gaurangi priya, Sridhar Maharaja said harmony presupposes independent thinking and krsna can harmonize bhisma and arjuna fighting on opposite side. Or even balarama takes the side of duryodhana sometimes and opposes krsna but in the absolute everything is harmonized. So please dont be discouraged by differing opinion of devotees and continue to inspire us with your work like you are doing. Because of you and madan gopal I could meet maharaja at the first time.

While I agree with guru nistha as his arguments are siddhantic, but sorry to say vamsidhari prabhu you generally make statements which are not grounded on siddhanata and are based on sentiment, " Like my guru is the best and the only guru" and we also will become worshippers of form rather than substance. Do you want to make people fanatic in ISKCON or like gosvamis who are equal to ruffians and gentle because they are non-envious. I never can understand your udnerstanding of gaudiya siddhanta so I have to respect that only from a distance. Sorry if i offended you but it was not done out of bad intention but according to siddhanta of guru tattva which is clearly explained in "sri guru and his grace" and the neophyte conception of "amara guru jagad guru" has to be smashed anytime you see it.

I still have lust and ego so I am not qualified to say that, but I hate fanaticism of any form and even the introduction to krsna samhita will tell you about swan like people being the ones who can take nectar from everywhere and we have to be like that.

I had to be assertive at this point as vamsi prabhu has gone to far in his comments and will prevent entry of any sensible people into this forum.

Jason - April 20, 2007 6:31 pm

I think it was at Gaurangi-priya, Nama-srestham and Jiva-Doya's initiations in N.C. when GM gave a pre-ceremony lecture where he stated somewhat jokingly (and maybe somewhat not), "...I thought I was part of ISKCON?". I know that his statement can be viewed in several ways, but ultimately, to me at least, it shows his non-partison spirit. Despite being mistreated, he still sees his connection to ISKCON, at least in the sense that it was his spiritual masters mission in which he rendered unparalleled service and still has many godbrothers and godsisters. He came to what some would consider "ISKCON land" and initiated those who were following their heart and didn't encourage them to pack up and leave. I appreciated the class and him saying what he did given the event/circumstance/situation, etc.

Prema-bhakti Marga - April 20, 2007 6:36 pm

Thanks J. I agree this is an important discussion.

My basic reply to you I think was a very practical one.

One point is that when people say they support or visit ISKCON they may mean very different things. It's not really a question of going to an ISKCON temple or not, at least not in my mind. Yet I do feel if GM is your main shelter your resources should go to him first and foremost. If you have got plenty of time and money to go around (which it seems most devotees don't) then spread it around by all means but immediate family should come first at least this is my feeling about that particular aspect of the debate. Otherwise how will GM's vision unfold? He's got plenty of vision and ideas for community and outreach. He needs funds and people power plain and simple.

So whether you go to an ISKCON temple or not give your time and $ to Audarya. :Just Kidding:

Jason - April 20, 2007 6:45 pm

I'm down with that! :Just Kidding:

Nitai Joseph - April 20, 2007 7:07 pm

GM gave a pre-ceremony lecture where he stated somewhat jokingly (and maybe somewhat not), "...I thought I was part of ISKCON?".

Jai! :Just Kidding:

Jason - April 20, 2007 7:40 pm

Just the other day a devotee came to my home for the first time and say my initiation photo. She asked about my guru and I told her all about him. She was saddened to hear that he can't come to the temple, but was very excited and said at the end, "I can't wait to meet him." But, I tend to feel that having ISKCON devotees in favor of GM is just a burden for this group. That's what I feel like. Like, "Oh great, we have to deal with one of those people from ISKCON with all that baggage." Yea, it may be easier to make fresh devotees, but somehow this is the way Krsna has arranged it, and GM inspires a lot of people within ISKCON.

I think this gets to the core as to why I personally feel that disciples of GM who have some connection with ISKCON (both the institution and devotees affiliated with that institution; there is a difference), should not completely turn their backs. There is a slowly building momentum in ISKCON towards more openness, mending relations and whatnot. I'm not saying that it's totally because of a realization on certain points of siddhanta, but I think it's a change for the better nonetheless.

I think there is also a difference between people deciding to leave the institution of ISKCON for well though out and justifiable reasons, and those who leave with the attitude of, "...fine! If we can't play in your sandbox then we're taking our toys and leaving...bye!" What's worse is to be one who left justifiably; for good reasons, and yet comes across as someone who just "doesn't play well with others."

As for the feeling that you have, Gaurangi-priya, wow...that makes me so sad to think that you ever feel like a different breed of devotee. I sure hope that I have never done anything to make someone feel like that. People in general come to spiritual life with "baggage". It's nice to know that we've all found a place where we can leave it at the door.

Jason - April 20, 2007 7:56 pm

Given the somewhat "heated" nature of this thread, and the fact that we all have different reasons for our different choices/perspectives, I thought that this comment GM made on another thread was quite revealing:

"Our emotions impact our reasoning, and our psychology, our emotional content, propensities, samskaras, etc. are the result of our previous life's actions, be they karmic or devotional. Reason is hardly the final arbitrator in any of our decisions. It may seem to be, but if we look beneath the surface we will find other casues."

It's interesting to think while I may have my "reasons" for choosing to have some association with ISKCON and/or ISKCON devotees, on a deeper level, there is more to it than just that.... :Just Kidding: Interestingly, it takes a person like GM to make a statement like that and get me thinking.

Vamsidhari Dasa - April 20, 2007 9:01 pm

Vivek, I am not speaking out of sidhantic knowledge at all nor have I ever claimed that. I am in fact, speaking based on my feelings. But you are as well only that you priviledge your feelings over mine. I am comfortable with agression and find it useful sometimes. I am not a saint I am full of pratista and passion. I do not pretend to be some kind of pundit or anything. I am respectful of other people's sentiments. I am not saying that my Guru is better then any other Guru. I am just saying that my Guru is the best for me but other Guru's are the best for them. I am not fanatical, but I understand how you can read what I say that way. I hope you understand that I do not think that I am better then anyone else or that in my service is good. In fact I dont do anything for GM I wish I was called upon to do something for real.

I do not take offense from you as I am well aware of my shortcomings. Maybe it is hard for you to understand me because we are different and speak from different positions. I tend to polarize discussions and often that degenerates into something else: people read into what I say what they want to read, but you have to contend with that. Sometimes discussion needs to be polarized in order to see things more clearly, draw out peoples feelings out of the hiding examine ourselves. That is not an easy task. Maybe that is not so useful when all you are concerned is to harmonize and equalize but I am not concerned with that. It is important to return to homeostasis, and thats why we have people like you. I am also very comfortable with being attacked since I am not here to win a popularity contest, but I am here to express the way I feel and often that rubs the people the worng way. I don't feel apoligetic for that. I am not ashamed of my neophyte status or my limited understanding of the sastras. There is always room for improvement. I am happy with the guidence I get and support I am given.

You can come close or take your distance it is up to you. I know where I stand.

Cup cakes, anyone?

Madhavendra Puri Dasa - April 20, 2007 9:04 pm

I just went trough all the posts today and I have to say you really cheared me up guys. :Just Kidding:

I like variety, and I can see your company is full of this. This discussion was to me really enliving. Thank you.

Jason - April 20, 2007 9:11 pm

Cup cakes, anyone?

Vamsi, I don't always agree with you, but you sure don't hold back....there's something strangely sweet about that. I'll gladly have cupcakes with you....

Vivek - April 20, 2007 9:16 pm

Vivek, I am not speaking out of sidhantic knowledge at all nor have I ever claimed that. I am in fact, speaking based on my feelings. But you are as well only that you priviledge your feelings over mine. I am comfortable with agression and find it useful sometimes. I am not a saint I am full of pratista and passion. I do not pretend to be some kind of pundit or anything. I am respectful of other people's sentiments. I am not saying that my Guru is better then any other Guru. I am just saying that my Guru is the best for me but other Guru's are the best for them. I am not fanatical, but I understand how you can read what I say that way. I hope you understand that I do not think that I am better then anyone else or that in my service is good. In fact I dont do anything for GM I wish I was called upon to do something for real.
I do not take offense from you as I am well aware of my shortcomings. Maybe it is hard for you to understand me because we are different and speak from different positions. I tend to polarize discussions and often that degenerates into something else: people read into what I say what they want to read, but you have to contend with that. Sometimes discussion needs to be polarized in order to see things more clearly, draw out peoples feelings out of the hiding examine ourselves. That is not an easy task. Maybe that is not so useful when all you are concerned is to harmonize and equalize but I am not concerned with that. It is important to return to homeostasis, and thats why we have people like you. I am also very comfortable with being attacked since I am not here to win a popularity contest, but I am here to express the way I feel and often that rubs the people the worng way. I don't feel apoligetic for that. I am not ashamed of my neophyte status or my limited understanding of the sastras. There is always room for improvement. I am happy with the guidence I get and support I am given.

You can come close or take your distance it is up to you. I know where I stand.

Cup cakes, anyone?

Let us fight and please Maharaja like bhisma and arjuna could,lol.

Anyway distancing was because of "sectarianism and party spirit being enemy of absolute truth" and I didnt speak it, BVT did. But if you think I am also just speaking out of feeling and not out of siddhanta you are entitled to your view, i dont mind it. But I was concerned about the fact that you are not sensitive to other people in the forum many times, and this may rub them of unneccarily and may even commit aparadha. But if you are proud of doing that all the time, I have no problem. This is the last time I spoke harshly about you, but I wont do that again as I understand that you have your own views. But I am interested in "absolute harmony: the play of the absolute" and so I can see your variety of opinion just enhances the beauty of krsna even more. Yes I am deeply influenced by Sridhar Maharaja due to his harmonizing ability.

Forgive me as your younger brother.

Nitai Joseph - April 20, 2007 9:20 pm

Cup cakes, anyone?

Now thats my kind of sidhanta! :Just Kidding:

Vamsidhari Dasa - April 20, 2007 9:42 pm

Not being apologetic is not symonimous with being proud. I am not proud or ashamed. It is just the way I am, take things on for others and speak my mind so that other people don't have to. That is the group dynamic and I tend to be that in group. One day I will become less reactive and more elevated, but not today.

Sometimes we have to "step on your head with our shgoes" too. :Just Kidding:

Audarya-lila Dasa - April 20, 2007 10:49 pm

Wow - it's so hot in here I had to take my coat off!!! :Just Kidding:

I do believe that we should try to represent our Guru Maharaja in all we do and he certainly does not promote a 'party spirit'. Remember he is deeply influenced by Srila Prabhupada and Sridhara Maharaja. Sridhara Maharaja was a great harmonizer and like him our Guru Maharaja sees the good in all devotees.

Here is an interesting point to consider in all of this: Srila Prabhupada is many things to many different people and they all feel they are following or reprenting him to one degree or another. Some people exclusively quote from the Vedabase where Srila Prabhupada speaks ill of his godbrothers and tells his disciples to avoid them. Many of his godbrothers had various types of dealings with Srila Prabhupada over the years and, of course, not all of them cooperated with him or even felt the need to since they didn't share the same conception of him that his disciples did.

Clearly, even though there are so many disciples of Srila Prabhupada and they all have access to the exact same information in terms of his writings, lectures and instructions - there are still many differing ideas and opinions about how to accurately represent him.

I agree with those who have said that we should give all our efforts and resources to support and further the mission of and vision of our Guru Maharaja.

While the starting of this topic was to discuss GBC resolutions which I have absolutely no interest in - I do have an interest in sadhu sanga and it is absolutely not the case that there are no sadhus outside of Sri Chaitanya Sanga. It is also not the case, in my own opinion at least, that there are no sadhus who choose to serve in the Iskcon mission.

While I don't readily say to anyone inquiring about my religious orientation, 'I'm a Hare Krsna', preferring rather to use terms like Gaudiya Vaishnava or Hindu like others here, I don't distance myself from other devotees. Does anyone here really think that people in Iskcon or ritviks or Narayana Maharaja's disicples or any other faction or splinter group are not devotees, at least in the broadest sense of the term? We chant Hare Krsna daily and are trying to develop love for Krsna so we should be proud to be called Hare Krsna's. I know no one had a problem with that label when Srila Prabhpuada was physically present. Just because there were abuses and bad people did regrettable things doesn't mean the whole thing is rotten. Most Catholics are ashamed of the priests who abused people but they don't shy away from announcing they are Catholics.

The only reason anyone wants to distance themselves from that label is that so many wrongs have been done and the public image so tarnished that it's embarassing to admit affiliation. Guilt by association? I personally am proud of our lineage, don't forget that Guru Maharaja is a disciple of Srila Prabhupada's. He has many god brothers and sisters and they are all part of our family and part of our heritage.

I have one brother and one sister that I am not proud of in terms of some of the things they did in their lives - but they are still my family and I don't distance myself from them or not count them amongst my family due to their short comings.

I distanced myself from devotees for many years due to my misgivings with Iskcon (at least that was my perception at the time). But after reading Sri Guru and His Grace I realized that the real fault was in my own vision and that without devotees and worship of Krsna's devotees there is no meaning to devotion to Krsna.

Currently I reside in sourthern California so I am distanced from Audarya Ashrama (though not by as much distance as many - from a practicle stand point in my daily life I only get to go to the ashrama a few times a year and that only for short visits). I live close to Giriraja Maharaja and have found his association and that of his disciples and the godbrothers of his that visit to be very uplifting.

When Guru Maharaja hosted Radhanatha Swami and Jayadvaita Swami from Iskcon at Audarya I found their association to be very uplifting and Guru Maharaja not only encouraged it, but asked them to give talks at the gathering. Dhanurdhara Maharaja was also recently hosted at the Asharma and also visited Guru Maharaja in Vrndavana recently. There are so many differing opinions as to the standing of all these devotees and the merits of their association.

I would caution anyone making blanket statements about any vaishnava sanga and I would also recommend that everyone carefully examine their own hearts before judging others.

For my own reasons, I don't affiliate myself at all with Iskcon, but I do associate with devotees from that institution and I do find many of them to be inspirational on many different levels. Like it or not - when you dress in devotional clothing and wear tilak you will be recognized as a 'Hare Krsna' by some people.

As vaishnavas we are called to have generous hearts and to see the good in all people - what to speak of other devotees.

At any rate these are complex issues and we should all allow for varying sentiments. We all agree that Guru Maharaja is unique and has a unique and very special way of representing our lineage and we all share a passion for wanting to be a part of that and helping it to blossom and grow.

Vivek - April 20, 2007 11:49 pm

you are a great harmonizer! all glories to audarya lila prabhu!

Actually you actually expressed exactly what my feeling was.

I am actually wanting to do something exclusively from maharaja but still I can be friendly to people in ISKCON or anywhere for that matter. So I think guru nistha has very much made a very good point fo dedicating as much of time for maharaja as possible but not at the cost of codemning all others.

Thank you audarya lila prabhu again.

Syamasundara - April 21, 2007 1:29 am

I don't have an opinion just yet about this whole issue, mostly I have impressions, also because... what is the issue?

It's obviously not the resolutions any more, since nobody seems to care about them anywhere (... no improper sexual behavior in the office, as if there was a proper one, or as if this needs to be a resolution, reminds me of the Coran when it says no sex with your mother or with a camel, OK?). I guess this thread turned, however, into something that touches more home and is more relevant to us, although honestly, I haven't figured out what it is.

My experience so far is that when I get a little too critical, GM's reaction is that of reminding me that without ISKCON, I and others would be nowhere right now, he can criticize the society because he knows it well, and by the way, he was born and raised there, so to speak, how could he consider himself as not part of Iskcon? Like many Iskcon devotees say, Iskcon means Prabhupada, but just how much of that Iskcon has survived nowadays, apart from the name?

Nobody is really crying anymore about the coming apart of the Gaudiya Matha, SP didn't, nor did SSM, because the Sankirtana movement luckily lived on, in our group and hopefully others. GM is very much concerned with keeping up the dignity of our sampradaya, and if Iskcon is not, then we should take the onus on us, while trying to distinguish ourselves. GM's and other missions have tried in many ways, with turbans, beard, we only wear white bead bags (at least those who start with GM), now we have shaved head, saffron and lungi for all the monks, speaking of which, GM is also careful to his lexicon, saying monks, students, and Gaudiya Vaisnavism, instead of brahmacari, disciple and Krsna Consciousness, mostly when he preaches to outsiders, but also in more intimate classes, so that his disciples absorb his mood and style, and other devotees of maybe other groups start to think of why he does and says things differently.

As far as what people think when they see us, and how much they can distinguish us, I think that is in some way relative, if not irrelevant. In Italy I grew up with nuns all over the place: black nuns, white nuns, grey, blue, different veil, etc. For them it made a big difference, they could recognize each other as belonging to this or that order, but to me they were just nuns, and as kids we would play sort of "you're it" passing bad luck to one another, as seeing those black ladies was seen as a bad auspice...

If somebody is not in the know, they won't distinguish us from Iskcon, but not even from any mayavadi group, buddhist group, or even alien-worshiping sect, so...

However, within the sampradaya it's always been the case that different sects distinguish themselves with tilaka or clothing. It only has a material practicality, and no spiritual value, but it has its advantages.

Once GM, Vrndaranya and I were coming back from Radha Gokulananda, GM stopped the rksa and asked me to go into a shop to ask if our saffron cloth had arrived from south India (and exactly what color was a whole other issue...). I peeked into the back, with my brick color clothes and white bead bag and said: "My GM wants to know if the cloth has arrived." Some devotees who were also negotiating and sitting in the back asked me "Who is your GM?" since I looked different and when I replied their eyes lit up and told him to pay their regards to him and asked where he was living.

As far as being concerned with Iskcon, sometimes talking about this or that resolution or any other out there thing we learn they do is just a source of prajalpa, "Did you read what they are saying about editing the books now? And what they say about gays, and women gurus?"

So, in that sense, yes, we might as well forget about their nonsense and focus on our mood and guruseva.

At the same time, for us it can be a nice workout to see how much we know or have understood about certain issues. All I was hearing about Iskcon or Narayana maharaja while at Audarya was from GM at lunch, and I doubt he wanted to foster prajalpa among us.

As to associating with them, I don't know what to think. Ever since I met GM, every time I go to an Iskcon temple I feel a lot of pain, the temples are almost empty, those who are there are new, and in general they all seem to just go through the motions of bhakti, they don't seem to tap from a living stream. Another reaction I have is nervousness, because apart from the deity seva that is generally impeccable, I find myself byting my mental tongue not to make offenses for how they chant, what they say or don't say in class, how they chant gayatri during a kirtan, and other weird things. So, for these reason I would do well to not go at all. At the same time, being able to go to an Iskcon temple, in London, Paris, Madrid at a time in which I was far away from all my godbrothers or any devotee for that matter, was like finding a lighthouse during a night storm.

When I was working at a Club Med in Sicily, at some point I felt some strong separation from the maha prasada, I would have done anything for a milk sweet with a Tulasi leaf on it. So I took a taxi, two buses, a hike, and climbed three locked gates to get to the Catania temple (the door bell wasn't working). The local devotee turned out to be one I knew since my early days in Milan as a sunday guest, and when we talked about my guru he was very receptive and interested, and I promised him a copy of the Italian version of the Siksastaka as soon as it's ready.

Similarly in Milan these past months, I went a couple of times, and found a nice devotee who has also read all of SSM books and told me incidentally that Narasimha maharaja was one hour away from Milan and Visnu maharaja is still there (!) but it was two days before I came to the States, so I missed out on them. Anyway, if some of us, for one reason or another, associate freely with Iskcon devotees, that can benefit many devotees who constitute the fire under the ash of Iskcon, but don't know where to look. Also, it could improve communication; when I first when back to Italy in '97 dressed like a devotee, my old friends were asking me if I was a vegetarian and if I chanted my rounds, as they knew absolutely nothing of anything that went on outside of Iskcon.

Gaurangi-priya Devi - April 21, 2007 2:13 am

Nice posts Audarya-lila and Syamasundar.

Now that I've collected myself a bit, I've been thinking more. I see the merit in focusing our energy and time in developing more GM's mission, our mission. It is important. I hope to be able to part of that development as time progresses. I guess for the time being, I feel that my service is in getting more and more devotees within ISKCON to appreciate GM, serving him as much as I can from here, and hosting him when he visits NC. Community development has a life of it's own, and I know when the time is ready I'll be ready. I don't mean to sound lazy, but in my stage as a devotee and mother of two kids I can't be so much a pioneer out on my own. I need daily sanga of devotees. I still really hope that Asheville will develop and that I can be part of it, because a community of godsiblings would be wondeful. Having said that, I will always be connected somehow with ISKCON, even if I am part of a Caitanya Sanga community. I have numerous friends in ISKCON whom I've grown up with and will be friends with until I die.

Anyway, in resolution, it has been good discussing this and hearing everyone's opinions. It helps us understand our family better. Today I was talking to Vamsi, and I said how I became attached to GM on my first meeting with him, but with him comes a whole family. That can take time, understanding that family, but it is also very important to understand that the guru is not alone and our vision of him is not the only one. Everyone's experience and opinion is valid, because we're all individuals. And I also agree that time and money should be focused on GM's group. Totally agree.

In ending, bring on the cupcakes! I actually love making cupcakes, AND I will be in Audarya next week, so a round of cupcakes for everyone on me. :Just Kidding:

Vivek - April 21, 2007 2:43 am

So I am the only one left who is proud and arrogant. Maybe vamsi can forgive me.

Vamsidhari Dasa - April 21, 2007 2:47 am

:wub: Very Sweet ending just like the frosting on the cup cake!

:Just Kidding: :Batting Eyelashes: :Batting Eyelashes: :Batting Eyelashes: :Batting Eyelashes: :Batting Eyelashes:

You are long forgiven, Vivek, just dont ever do it again! :Cow:

Syamasundara - April 21, 2007 2:57 am

In ending, bring on the cupcakes! I actually love making cupcakes, AND I will be in Audarya next week, so a round of cupcakes for everyone on me. :Just Kidding:

You're gonna be there, too? Yeey. I don't like frosting on cupcakes, I prefer Gloria's glorious jumbo lemon raspberry muffins. GM liked them a lot once I made them for breakfast in Point Arena, but with strawberries. I also remember the jumbo muffins with poppy seeds that CH made for us when we came back from India.

By the way, the cupcake joke came about because Vamsi and I noticed how many of us were in the same thread, and I said Everybody is there, let's have cupcakes and tea!

Vivek - April 21, 2007 2:57 am

thankyou vamsi. I will not do that again, my intention was constructive criticism not that pleasure giving criticism. Actually it hurts me when i have to criticise anybody.

Nitai Joseph - April 21, 2007 3:06 am

this is so sweet :Just Kidding: I think this calls for a group hug :Batting Eyelashes:

Jason - April 21, 2007 3:47 am

I'll just say that I spoke with Prema a bit on the phone after work and she emphasized a few points further. I had recognized them before, but she drove the point home. Without getting into all of them, let's just say that it reminded me of a southern saying in regards to going to a dance with your significant other, "...you leave with the one who brung ya". We can maintain cordial relations with devotees from ISKCON, but ultimately, we really should invest our utmost energy with guru maharaja. Prabhupada came with nothing, Maharaja selflessly assisted his guru for years and years, strengthening devotees faith, making inroads and developing resources and a community. He contributed so much to an institution that now, largely, can't seem to give him the time of day. He left with nothing. He turned that nothing into something really special and we should support that first and foremost. I'm sorry if my post implied that I thought otherwise.

Vamsidhari Dasa - April 21, 2007 4:30 am

Well I am glad to see that peaople are changing the tune, giving group hugs, and plannig cup cakes. I think that my work is done. :Just Kidding:

Vrindaranya Dasi - April 21, 2007 5:51 pm

This thread got me thinking about harmony, specificity, separateness, etc. In particular, I became interested in the question of whether harmony necessitates compromise in the sense of having a less specific focus. For example, one may identify as a member of Guru Maharaja's family, a devotee of Krsna, a Hindu, a spiritual seeker, a human, a living entity, etc. As you get less specific, you are able to identify with a wider audience: as connotation increases, denotation decreases, to use Srila Sridhara Maharaja's terminology. The bigger the group, the less attributes that group has in common. Therefore, Brahman, the Absolute devoid of attributes, is as Srila Sridhara Maharaja said "the all-accommodating aspect of the environment."

But is harmony and accommodation the same? No, he says. What is the harmony of one note? Or in the case of Brahman, silence? The plane of absolute harmony, Vrindavana, is where so much variety of sentiment can coexist. But in that plane do we find one harmonious group? In the broadest sense, yes. However, as you look closer there are groups within groups and even conflicting groups: a whole wave of Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu is entitled "Maitri-vairi-sthiti: Concerning Friendly and Inimical Rasa" (i.e. for example, in the proximity of vatsalya-rasa, madhurya-rasa is inhibited.) Thus specificity is not anathema to harmony. Therefore, to Vrindavana we can look for the ideal model of harmony: each devotee is passionately identified with and active within their own group and all of these groups fit together as a harmonious whole.

Of course, one may justifiably question how well this model applies to groups in the material world. After all, the variety in Vrindavana is all based on correct siddhanta. To the extent that a group deviates from proper siddhanta, what is the value of harmonizing with them? Or, more accurately, their apa-siddhanta has created disharmony with the flow of the absolute truth. Therefore, ultimately we don't need to worry about whether others are disharmonious but rather whether we are in harmony with Krsna's will.

Furthermore, let our harmony not be the neutrality of santa-rasa, but rather the partiality of the higher rasas. This partiality isn't tainted by the unhealthy sectarianism of the material world. As Guru Maharaja has said, "Unhealthy sectarianism is that everyone has to be in my group (to be valid). Healthy sectarianism is that I don't want to be in any other group (because I have found my place)." When such healthy sectarianism takes place, associating with other groups may be likened to visiting someone: be they a relative, friend, stranger, or even foe [or should I say sharing cupcakes with others (prasadam distribution)].

One other point: for us, the "group" is really Guru Maharaja's conception. To the extent that we enter that conception, we are in his group.

Nitai Joseph - April 21, 2007 6:14 pm

Wow. That was comprehensive. I am looking forward to the association of all the Audarya-vasis.

Prema-bhakti Marga - April 21, 2007 6:17 pm

Furthermore, let our harmony not be the neutrality of santa-rasa, but rather the partiality of the higher rasas. This partiality isn't tainted by the unhealthy sectarianism of the material world. As Guru Maharaja has said, "Unhealthy sectarianism is that everyone has to be in my group (to be valid). Healthy sectarianism is that I don't want to be in any other group (because I have found my place)." When such healthy sectarianism takes place, associating with other groups may be likened to visiting someone: be they a relative, friend, stranger, or even foe [or should I say sharing cupcakes with others (prasadam distribution)].

One other point: for us, the "group" is really Guru Maharaja's conception. To the extent that we enter that conception, we are in his group.

Sadhu! Sadhu! :Just Kidding:

Vrindaranya, thank you for expressing the highest conception of harmony in such a siddhantic and eloquent way as demonstrated by our dear guardians and exemplars Guru Maharaja and Srila Sridhara Maharaja.

Vamsidhari Dasa - April 21, 2007 6:35 pm

:Just Kidding: hari hari bol!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Syamasundara - April 21, 2007 6:54 pm

Nicely put.

Another thing I wanted to mention when I went to the temple last Sunday is that in the Milan temple since SP centennial they started to do the guru puja to SP after Gaura Arati on Sunday.

During the puja we all did puspanjali, and I noticed that there were some sikhs among us who had no problem honoring SP. Now, while I understand they are simple people, and their motivation can be more superstitious (it's going to be good for us to respect sadhus) or mayavadi (it's really all the same), I could kind of see the contrast between how ready Hindus are to show respect rather than not, and how weary we Westerners become when some detail is different.

Vivek - April 21, 2007 10:22 pm

Great vrindaranya! From the vision of highest devotee even material world has a harmony, VCT actually talks about how hiranyaksha is actually praising varahadeva though externally he is vilifying him. Similarly the discord and apasiddhanta in material world just enhances the value of siddhantic and healthy spirituality. Harmony according to BVT is like different ingredients in food mixing together to get the best taste, you get diversity mixing in a special way to enhance the beauty but at the same time unity is not compromised.

In the end only an individual knows whether his sectarianism is because of advanced sentiments or mundane pride. But sridhar maharaja does tell about dismantling the material ego using third verse of siskastam is necessary before ego or sectarianism of higher order manifests in the individual. So there has to be lot of caution lest we miscontrue our pride to be some bhava of the spiritual world.

Vrindaranya Dasi - April 21, 2007 11:53 pm

Thank you for the thought-provoking comments. It seems like you are saying that sectarianism is based on either bhava or mundane pride. I would reply that the healthy sectarianism that Guru Maharaja spoke of isn't only found in devotees with advanced sentiments but can arise in any devotee, based on sastriya-sraddha, not pride. I am also not so sure that only the individual possessing the sentiment knows whether it is healthy or not. Unhealthy sectarianism makes itself rather apparent and healthy "sectarianism" manifests as enthusiastic dedication and conviction in our own guru without the fanatic assertion that this is the only way.

As for the highest devotee's vision of the material world, this is indeed wonderful, but of course we should be careful in trying to apply the vision of the uttama-adhikari. To call our progress, we must pass through the discrimination of the madhyama-adhikari.

Could you please cite the quote of Srila Sridhara Maharaja you are referring to?

Vivek - April 22, 2007 1:40 am

Vrindaranya, what you said about healthy sectarianism is not sectarianism according to me but variety enhancing the unity. Why I said only an individual can decide how the sectarianism is coming, is because I want to be liberal in judging other people, lest I club a few individuals in this group also to have the unhealthy sectarianism as well(it may look like unhealthy sectarianism to me but to other person it may not be so) . Like sincerity is invisible and only the person practising a path knows what it is bringing about his sectarianism.

Yes we have to pass through madhyama adhikari level but keeping the target of the uttama adhikari helping keeping of any pride from entering the system for me. And krsna samhita talks about being a swan like person and graduating from madhyama to uttama( not meaning to say that i am any uttam adhikari devotee). The idea of krsna and balarama being brothers and balarama supporting the "adharmic" duryodhana can only be harmonized with a scale of uttama adhikari. Understanding the pastimes of the lord, I cannot but help take that vision, although in practical life I use madhyamadhikari ways. Lila does transcend logic and madhyamadhikari is in the domain of logic. Also the NOI sri supa gosvami says that " a devotee is free from propensity to criticize others", so only when criticism is constructive and aimed at genuine benefit of everybody devotee does it otherwise he avoids it.

I will post the quote from sridhar maharaja tommorow as I am caught up in work today. Also I am clear in the fact that I want to serve Maharaja and devote all time for his vision but that doesnt prevent me from seeing good qualities in devotees who are not engaged in his mission. In that regard I may be different from others but we can keep some individualities of ours even we are in a group as long as it doesnt conflict our service.

Vrindaranya Dasi - April 22, 2007 12:52 pm

Yes, my conclusion was that partiality or what Guru Maharaja called "healthy sectarianism" can be beautiful. Harmony does not preclude specificity and it need not embrace merely the lowest common denominator. Discrimination is not our enemy. Therefore, being broad or accommodating is not the highest vision, because love is all about partiality. There are many shades of grey between ugly partiality or sectarianism, which ultimately seeks to glorify the self, and the love or "healthy sectarianism" that is materially ego-effacing. As unhealthy sectarianism sees the world in black in white, there is a corresponding false liberalism, which is merely a reaction to sectarianism and which also loses awareness of the grey.

Vivek - April 22, 2007 3:23 pm

Vrindaranya, This is the section from sridhar maharaja's book "Search for Sri Krsna" I was referring too, he has made similar points many times in other books.

Student: Will we have to remember Krsna while we are doing this?

Srila Sridhara Maharaja: Yes. Then we will be able to come in connection

with Krsna and gradually we will come to realize that our environment is

friendly to us. When the reactions of our previous actions disappear, we will

find that every wave is carrying good news to us. When our egoistic attitude

vanishes, we will find ourself in the midst of sweet waves all around. We should

try to do away with whatever wrong we have done hitherto. We must do our

duty and never expect any definite result, but cast it towards the infinite.

Dissolving Ego

And then one day will come when our egoistic feeling will dissolve and from

within, our real self, a member of the infinite world, will spring up and awaken,

and we will find ourselves in the sweet waves of that environment. There,

everything is sweet. The breeze is sweet, the water is sweet, the trees are sweet,

whatever we come in contact with is sweet, sweet, sweet.

Our internal ego is our enemy, and to dissolve that ego, we must do our duty as

we think fit, but never expect any response according to our will. If we adopt

this karma-yoga then in no time we will find that the wrong ego, which was

always expecting something crooked for its selfish purpose, has vanished; the

broad, wide ego within has come out, and we are in harmony with the whole

universe. The harmonious world will appear before us, and the cover of selfish

desires will disappear.The cause of our disease is not outside us, but within us. A paramahamsa

Vaisnava, a saint of the highest platform, sees that everything is all right. He

finds nothing to complain about. When one can see that everything is good and

sweet to the furthest extreme, he comes to live in the plane of divinity. Our false

ego creates only disturbance, and that ego should be dissolved. We should not

think that the environment is our enemy. We must try hard to detect God's grace

in whatever comes to us, even if it comes as an apparent enemy. Everything is

the grace of the Lord, but we can't see it; rather, we see the opposite. The dirt is

in our eyes.

Actually, everything is divine. It is all the grace of the Lord. The disease is in

our eyes. We are diseased, and if the disease is cured, we shall find that we are

in the midst of a gracious world. Only the coverings of desire deceive us from

having a real estimation of the world. A bonafide student of the devotional

school will accept such an attitude towards the environment and towards the

Lord. We have to think that God's will is everywhere. Even a blade of grass

cannot move without the sanction of the Supreme Authority. Every detail is

detected and controlled by Him. We have to look upon the environment with

optimism. The pessimism is within us. Our ego is responsible for all sorts of

evil.Infinite Blissfulness

This is Vaisnavism. If we can do this, then in no time, our disease will be cured,

and we'll be in the midst of infinite blissfulness. Our tendency at present is to

cure what we see on the outside. We think, "I want everything to follow my

control, my sweet will. When everything obeys me, then I will be happy." But

we must take just the opposite attitude. As Mahaprabhu has said:

trinad api sunicena

taror api sahisnuna

amanina manadena

kirtaniyah sada harih

We should create no resistance against our environment. Still, if some

undesirable things come towards us, we should tolerate that with our utmost

patience. And even if someone attacks us we won't become violent; we must

practice forbearance to the extreme. We shall honor everyone; we will seek no

honor.

In this way, with the least amount of energy and time we can attain the highest

goal: the plane where Krsna Himself is living. That is the most fundamental

plane of existence. At that time, all the encasements covering the soul will

vanish and die, and the inner soul will awaken and find that he is playing in a

sweet wave, dancing and merry-making in Vrndavana, with Krsna and his

devotees. And what is Vrndavana? It is neither a fable, nor a concocted story.

The broadest and widest plane of the whole universe is beauty, sweetness, and

blissfulness, and that is present in Vrndavana in all its fullness. We have to dive

deep into that plane of reality.Our ego has floated us on the surface of trouble in maya, illusion. Concoction,

and the search for selfish satisfaction have taken us here, and these must be

dissolved once and for all. And then from within, our golden selves will come

out, and we will find that we are in the plane of a happy dancing mood, with

Krsna in Vrndavana.

Vrindaranya Dasi - April 22, 2007 4:50 pm

Srila Sridhara Maharaja is talking about dissolving the material ego as a prerequisite for svarupa-siddhi in the quote: "And then one day will come when our egoistic feeling will dissolve and from within, our real self, a member of the infinite world, will spring up and awaken, and we will find ourselves in the sweet waves of that environment." Since the healthy sectarianism that Guru Maharaja was speaking about can arise before the stage of svarupa-siddhi, I don't think the quote applies. I'm not sure why you have equated such with the ego.

Vivek - April 22, 2007 5:14 pm

Srila Sridhara Maharaja is talking about dissolving the material ego as a prerequisite for svarupa-siddhi in the quote: "And then one day will come when our egoistic feeling will dissolve and from within, our real self, a member of the infinite world, will spring up and awaken, and we will find ourselves in the sweet waves of that environment." Since the healthy sectarianism that Guru Maharaja was speaking about can arise before the stage of svarupa-siddhi, I don't think the quote applies. I'm not sure why you have equated such with the ego.

I never talked about sectarianism in the sense you understand it. I also have that kind of sectarianism in that I feel the maharaja has given the best presentation of gaudiya siddhanta in the contemperory world. I was just talking about the hateful, proud sectarianism which admits no other group except ours. Anyway sridhar maharaja also talks about real ego being broad and wide and it is in harmony with whole universe( So in that sense the advanced bhava feelings of envy, jealousy and pride cannot be imitated in early stage)"If we adopt

this karma-yoga then in no time we will find that the wrong ego, which was

always expecting something crooked for its selfish purpose, has vanished; the

broad, wide ego within has come out, and we are in harmony with the whole

universe. The harmonious world will appear before us, and the cover of selfish

desires will disappear"

This doesnt conflict your views i think.

Vamsidhari Dasa - April 22, 2007 7:28 pm

I never talked about sectarianism in the sense you understand it. I also have that kind of sectarianism in that I feel the maharaja has given the best presentation of gaudiya siddhanta in the contemperory world. I was just talking about the hateful, proud sectarianism which admits no other group except ours.

Since you were responding to my post, I think that is what you were referring to when you talked about unhealthy sectarianisam. But I was not saying that, and i explained it in my subsequent post so lets not go there. I know in the heat of the moment rthings are misinterpreted.

However, I want to say something about all these quotes. There is a difference between quoting and repeating what someone said and actually have their realization. Different quotes for different foulks, you can say. It is better to have limited understanding and speak from that possition that assume someone else's position without corresponding realization. Otherwise, you risk reading what you want into somone's else's words and present them as laws writen in stone (sounds familiar?). Intelectual understanding without the corresponiding feeling becomes dry knowledge. That applies to any discipline as well as spiritual life.

No one in our group has hateful sectarianism because that is not what GM teaches us. He does teach us, however, to be discriminate, be open minded and speak our minds.

Vivek - April 22, 2007 8:42 pm

I will leave at that, I was actually speaking to Vrindaranya about her points and there was no intention to make a personal attack on anybody through this discussion.

Anyway the discussion with you had already been resolved previously so it would be very naive to go back to the previous position. Right now we were just dwelling on the sastric understanding of healthy sectarianism and unhealthy sectarianism.

Anyway I am sorry if you are hurt by this discussion.R egarding quotes and realization, yes i dont have any realisation like sridhar maharaja but his realizations are the greatest inspiration for me to conduct my life so atleast I can put my heart deeply into what he has said.

Vrindaranya Dasi - April 22, 2007 11:34 pm

Jaya, I feel satisfied that we have explored this issue in depth, so I will also leave it at that. :blush:

Vamsidhari Dasa - April 23, 2007 12:09 am

Anyway I am sorry if you are hurt by this discussion.R egarding quotes and realization, yes i dont have any realisation like sridhar maharaja but his realizations are the greatest inspiration for me to conduct my life so atleast I can put my heart deeply into what he has said.

I am not hurt at all and you are doing good to put your heart there. I hope we have exhausted this thread to the end.

Nanda-tanuja Dasa - April 23, 2007 12:15 am

Seem that the thread is over now, so I was wondering if Guru Maharaja can say couple of concluding words. I’m sure he was closely monitoring this conversation.

Swami - April 23, 2007 2:53 am

Seem that the thread is over now, so I was wondering if Guru Maharaja can say couple of concluding words. I’m sure he was closely monitoring this conversation.

Hare Krsna

Zvonimir Tosic - December 6, 2007 12:03 pm

Yes his disicple like him for his bold aggressive talk which according to them is akin to bhaktisiddhanta thakur.

Dear Vivek, thank you for this note.

It's quite interesting, probably because we all have some unique experiences, but I've never perceived Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati as such.

I was reading about him in articles, then reading his books and books that talk about him both directly and indirectly, and .. well, contrary to such opinions, he seemed to be a very warmhearted person to me. Very open handed, broad minded, contemporary, friendly, deep as an ocean but not terrifying. Au contraire, very soothing personality.

I was especially pleased to read Srila Sridhara Maharaja's reflections about his gurudeva and I find them very, very sweet, very warm. You can clearly see and taste that love between them. It is Mahaprabhu, it is so visible.

I really don't know why people believe (or want to believe) our acaryas were "tough guys", actually. I think it's crazy, misleading and many people start to think about them in a such way. What I believe is that such commentators are actually reflecting themselves in such statements and doing a great disservice to all of us.

Ys, Z.

Zvonimir Tosic - December 6, 2007 12:34 pm

I am not hurt at all and you are doing good to put your heart there. I hope we have exhausted this thread to the end.

Uups :Just Kidding:

I posted without knowing this thread has been put to sleep