Tattva-viveka
Guru-tattva in madhurya-rasa
Madhumangala Dasa - April 19, 2007 4:43 pm
Those who desire the moods of dasya-rasa, sakha-rasa and vatsalya-rasa take shelter of Nitynanda prabhu as guru-tattva and those in the mood of madhurya-rasa take shelter of Nitynanda's shakti, Srimati Jahnava devi (Ananga Manjari). Last night during bhakti-vrksa we were discussing this and it was mentioned that Gadhara is also guru-tattva for this rasa. Is it the proper understanding that Jahnava devi is in the mood of Radha and the gopis of Vrindavan and Gadahara is in the mood of Rukmini and the queens of Dwarka?
If the madhuyra-rasa is divided into lovers and wifes, what are the signifigant differences and which role is more elevated?
-Madhu
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - April 19, 2007 6:03 pm
If the madhuyra-rasa is divided into lovers and wifes, what are the signifigant differences and which role is more elevated?
Between parakiya rasa and svakiya rasa, paramour relationship is more elevated, because of complete death of ego, being free from all mundane conception.
Swami - May 10, 2007 2:41 am
Between parakiya rasa and svakiya rasa, paramour relationship is more elevated, because of complete death of ego, being free from all mundane conception.
Madhumangla's question requires a better answer than this. Are we to think that those is svakiya-bhava are not free from material ego and are thus mundane? More discussion please.
Nitai Joseph - May 10, 2007 3:15 am
Well I'll give it a go....
I don't know about Jahnavi Devi and Gadadhara Pandit's moods, the only reference I might have is that Sridhar Maharaja said that Gadadhara Pandit is the "carcass" of Radharani, Krsna having stolen her "heart and halo". This would lead me to think that yes Gadadhara is not in the mood of Radharani, I don't know if his mood is of the queens of dvarka or not. As far as the signifigant differences and more elevated part; lovers are higher. In the recent talks Swami has been giving he was saying something along these lines (I hope 
): even dasya, sakhya, vatsalya rasa in Vraja have some conception of duty, it's Mother Yasoda's duty to care for Krsna etc. But Madhurya rasa, the gopis aren't even supposed to have a relationship with Krsna.
So I think all of Vraja is above Varasrama in the sense that they are treating Bhagavan like an ordinary being, but only gopis are acting irreligously even if Krsna was a normal being, it that makes sense. The queens of Dvarka have some "Oh, He's God" factored into their relationship. Of course none of it is mundane, I guess it's just different strokes for different folks. From the outside we can gradate, dasya>sakhya>vatsalya>madhurya, but each of those is the best for one who is inside of any of them.
I think also Swami said that Vaikuntha bhakti on one level could be called bhakti misra jnana, whereas jnana misra bhakti is bhakti for the purpose of jnana and bhakti retires eventually, bhakti misra jnana would be bhakti but with some knowledge of, "Oh, He's God". Later in the talks he reffered to Vraja bhakti as "brain dead bhakti".
I hope some actual siddhanta made it through here, and I hope I didn't misquote Swami!!
Swami - May 10, 2007 12:33 pm
Well I'll give it a go....
I don't know about Jahnavi Devi and Gadadhara Pandit's moods, the only reference I might have is that Sridhar Maharaja said that Gadadhara Pandit is the "carcass" of Radharani, Krsna having stolen her "heart and halo". This would lead me to think that yes Gadadhara is not in the mood of Radharani, I don't know if his mood is of the queens of dvarka or not.
Gadadhara is Radha in Gaura-lila. However, when Mahaprabhu expressed this bhava Gadadhara's bhava would receed and he would express that of Lalita-sakhi, who is so dear to Radha. In Puri, which is representative of Dvaraka in many respects, Gadadhara sometimes exhibited the bhava of Rukmini, as mentioned in Sri Caitanya-caritamrta.
Gaudiya pramapara's or parivaras in which parakiya-bhava is found are not limited to those steming from Jahnava Ma and Gadadhara Pandita. It flows in all of the prarivaras.
Now can anyone tell us what is the difference between parakiya and svakiya bhava?
Madhavendra Puri Dasa - May 10, 2007 1:00 pm
Now can anyone tell us what is the difference between parakiya and svakiya bhava?
If this is not a tricky question I think parakiya bhava is love of gopis to Krsna (love of non married girls), and svakiya bhava is love exhibited by queens of Dvaraka (love in marriage). Is this correct?
Swami - May 10, 2007 1:49 pm
If this is not a tricky question I think parakiya bhava is love of gopis to Krsna (love of non married girls), and svakiya bhava is love exhibited by queens of Dvaraka (love in marriage). Is this correct?
What you have written is not entirely correct. Parakiya involves married girls. Also svakiya-bhava is not found only in Dvaraka. Can anyone say more? Can anyone say where else svakiya-bhava is found?
Vivek - May 10, 2007 3:24 pm
According to my reading, svakiya bhava is even found in a sphere in Vrindavan also where some gopis enjoy wedded conjugal love. Jiva Gosvami in consideration of his time even put svakiya in Vrindavan to be above parakiya though the reverse is true.
But none of even Vaikuntha is tinged with mundane conception, what to speak of svakiya bhava, only thing is intimacy increases with the extent of self-forgetfulness progressing from santa rasa to parakiya madhurya rasa.
Prema-bhakti - May 10, 2007 3:35 pm
What you have written is not entirely correct. Parakiya involves married girls. Also svakiya-bhava is not found only in Dvaraka. Can anyone say more? Can anyone say where else svakiya-bhava is found?
Svakiya-bhava can be found in the outer realm of Goloka Vrndavan where Radha and Krsna are worshipped in that sentiment.
Svakiya-bhava also appears in the prakata-lila with the unmarried gopis praying to have Krsna as their husband.
Parakiya-bhava is defined by the idea of belonging to someone else and to pursue such love it requires transgressing all social and scriptural injunctions in the lila to pursue ones beloved. Thus the highest dharma appears to be adharmic in the lila. Such risk increases the intensity of love.
Swami - May 10, 2007 5:57 pm
Svakiya-bhava can be found in the outer realm of Goloka Vrndavan where Radha and Krsna are worshipped in that sentiment.
Svakiya-bhava also appears in the prakata-lila with the unmarried gopis praying to have Krsna as their husband.
Parakiya-bhava is defined by the idea of belonging to someone else and to pursue such love it requires transgressing all social and scriptural injunctions in the lila to pursue ones beloved. Thus the highest dharma appears to be adharmic in the lila. Such risk increases the intensity of love.
These answers and Vivek's are much better.
However, as for svakiya appearing in the prakata lila, actually all of the gopis want to marry Krsna. The don't directly desire parakiya. They want to marry him before they are married to others. However, because parakiya is more intimate, Yogamaya arranges it in pursuance of Krsna's desire to taste it.
Sadhakas who are pursuing parakiya-bhava aspire to serve Radha Krsna, who as it turns out are in parakiya-bhava. Thus such sadhakas taste this as well (via their mistress Radha's experience of it) when they attain perfection.
Of course when Radha was offered svakiya in Dvaraka when she met Krsna at Kuruksetra (more or less), she expressed her preference for parakiya, or the love life she had in Vrindavana.
It is not possible to marry Krsna in Vraja becasue he leaves the Vraja too soon (before he turns 11 years old). Although theoretically he could marry that young, his astrological chart shows that he will leave the Vraja at an early age. So in consideration of this, it is not advisable (as desireable as it its) for a father in Vraja to betroth his daughter to the son of Nanda. Romanatic love is particularly complex.
To be clear, the outer realm of Goloka is not the Vraja-lila. So you are correct in stating that the svakiya-bhava of Radha Krsna is experienced there. Nimbarkis will go there.
Madhavendra Puri Dasa - May 10, 2007 6:17 pm
To be clear, the outer realm of Goloka is not the Vraja-lila. So you are correct in stating that the svakiya-bhava of Radha Krsna is experienced there. Nimbarkis will go there.
This part is to me specially unclear. Could someone develop this topic please? What is "outer realm" of Goloka?
Zvonimir Tosic - January 15, 2008 12:28 pm
It is not possible to marry Krsna in Vraja becasue he leaves the Vraja too soon (before he turns 11 years old). Although theoretically he could marry that young, his astrological chart shows that he will leave the Vraja at an early age.
Dear Swami,
Thank you very much for posting this. Which in turn, slightly confused me (but that's good!).
In Aesthetic Vedanta, p. 202, you wrote that in mantra-mayi visualisation sadhakas meditate upon Radha and Krishna as they appear at the time of rasa-lila. Krishna is 15 years, 9 months and 7 1/2 days old. If he leaves Vraja at 11, as you say above .. then, how can we understand he performs rasa-lila in Vraja at almost 16?
Thank you in advance.
Kind regards,
Ys Zvonimir