Tattva-viveka
Krsna's capacity for love
Margaret Dale - April 23, 2007 8:23 am
I know this question probably doesn't have a understandable answer, but if anyone has any good thoughts or analogies let me know.
Krsna's devotees love him so much that they love him beyond the point at which he can reciprocate. Am I the only one whose mind blows up at this point? Krsna is the absolute and contains the fullest of all qualities, yet his devotees are better at loving than he is.
Krsna is svayam bhagavan. Radha is eternal too, so they are eternally coexistent, right? That I can almost grasp. Where I get lost is Mother Yashoda, Subala, etc. Since the Vraja lila is eternal (right?) then all these personalities must also be eternal. If they are eternal, how is Krsna the source of them? And if Krsna is the source of them, then he does have the same capacity for love. If he is the source but they are independent, then Krsna is not supreme in something, which elevates the lower above the higher, but it is all still Krsna, and then my head starts to spin. If we take that line, then everything we do we can attribute to Krsna - ooooooooh. That only took 34 years. Geez. And if Krsna is not the source of them, then where do they come from? I would think he would have to be the source since he is everything in the material and spiritual worlds, right?
Can someone talk about this in a clearer way?
Vivek - April 23, 2007 5:37 pm
The conception of krsna being the source of everything is not to be taken a linear time thinking which we are accustomed to. It is not that first there is krsna then there is radharani then jivas, this conditioning of mine is accustomed to linear thinking. Leanr to think cyclically, like what comes first egg or the hen. Similarly as Maharaja said krsna is source of radharani and radharani is the source of krsna. And regarding krsna's capacity of love, he does show that greatest capacity when he comes at Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. At any rate feminine side has more inclination to be completly selfless and serve with no desire to exploit and krsna being purusha cannot take that side. Krnsa is positive and the negative is required to love the positive but when negative and positive combine together they give chaitanya deva.
This is clearly not very logical but selfless resolves all contradictions.
Vivek - April 23, 2007 7:40 pm
I meant selfless love resolves all contradictions. I am generally very careless while typing so excuse my mess.
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - April 23, 2007 9:32 pm
I’ll give it a shot.
I would like to draw a parallel to ray of white light and a prism. Of course it is a huge simplification, but bare with me for a second. Prism is used to break light up into its constituent spectral colors (the colors of the rainbow and everything in between). All of those rays of colored light have individuality and special characteristics, but none the less contained in the original ray of white light. Sri Radha’s body is free from bodily conception and actually consists of rasas, so the bodies of Krishna’s eternal associates do as well. So if you think of different rasas as of spectral colors then you can see that there are infinite number of flavors Rasaraja tastes.
I also think that engine of lila is infinite “I know that you know that I know” formula. For example: Radha doesn’t want to accept any service from Krishna, but she also knows that rendering service for her will give him pleasure, so she accepts his service. Krishna knows that and to give her pleasure of rendering service to him renders service to her. So love is the engine – give fullest love. So it moves like that – like ray of light, infinitely expands, always fresh and bright. Game of tag. Of course, it’s much more simple when lila is actually performed. Just people madly in love with each other.
Syamasundara - April 23, 2007 9:57 pm
as Maharaja said krsna is source of radharani and radharani is the source of krsna.
Are you sure he said that in those terms?
Otherwise Margaret, it's true, there is no way you can apply your tridimensional, linear time experience of reality to Krsna. That is not how you get knowledge and understanding, but through chanting (and all that entails) and ultimately getting there.
However, I could give you a few examples.
Suppose you give me appointment at 3pm on X Street and Y Avenue. At 3 pm sharp, I am there, I wait a long time, and next time I see you I get on your case for not showing up, but you tell me you actually were right there, but in an air balloon and if I had looked up, you would have dropped me the thing you wanted to give me. So I was thinking bidimensionally, whereas you were thinking in 3-D, but we were both right. This doesn't quite answer your question, but it explains first of all certain technical and to us obscure details we read in the scripture, such as how someone could have four heads on the same neck or two arms from the same shoulder. By the way, our Brahma is said to have 4 heads for the 3 dimensions and the time element, but there are said to be infinite Brahmas, with an indefinite number of heads, so imagine how much more complex Krsna reality must be. It's a reality where tattva is bhava, and bhava is tattva. Feeling is what determines reality, and real is what fosters a certain feeling. Also, Krsna and all of his energies are ever-expanding and nava-yauvana, nothing ever gets stale, so, although there is a timeless moment in which Krsna sets this whole machine into action, then, by the power of the svarupa-sakti, everything gets a life of its own for Krsna's pleasure.
I've fallen a little short in the conclusion, but it is in fact a slippery subject to grasp. Much better to work toward being grasped by Krsna and never let go by him, and we'll go from wondering to experiencing.
Vivek - April 23, 2007 10:39 pm
Yes Maharaja did use that statement in one of the Swami call to sort of attack the question that if God is source of everything then who is the source of God.
But then love of God is greater than God himself so love rules in highest sphere and it doent no any reason. We want rasa dont chain rasa to reason!
Vamsidhari Dasa - April 25, 2007 5:05 am
Not only is this a nice analogy it is also reminiscent of Pink Floyd, and that's psychodelia for you my friend :Big Grin:
"It's a reality where tattva is bhava, and bhava is tattva. Feeling is what determines reality, and real is what fosters a certain feeling. "
Nice, it is not a question of which comes first as they are complementary. One can feel before understanding and know and understand before feeling. But they do have to exist in concert and support one another. There is no knowing devoid of feeling or feeling without knowing. I very much like the idea to allow one self to be in Krisha's grasp rather then grasp Krishna.
Hari bol! :Nail Biting:
Madhukari Dasi - April 30, 2007 7:07 pm
Does this cyclical way of thinking also apply to our karma and actions? I'm still a little confused about these concepts and the infinite regression of karma it leads to: if everything in the material world is a result of our previous actions, there must have either been a first act uncaused by anything prior to it or eternally occuring. Does anyone know where i can find a bit information about this?
Swami - April 30, 2007 8:55 pm
Does this cyclical way of thinking also apply to our karma and actions? I'm still a little confused about these concepts and the infinite regression of karma it leads to: if everything in the material world is a result of our previous actions, there must have either been a first act uncaused by anything prior to it or eternally occuring. Does anyone know where i can find a bit information about this?
In Govinda-bhasya of Sri Baladeva Vidyabhusana this subject is discussed in relation to verses 2.1.34-35. There Sriman Baladeva replies to the charge of infinite regress with regard to anadi karma by citing the example of the seed and tree. He also explains that the principle of justice (karma) is eternal, as is God. If anyone has the time and has the book, it might be useful to type out and post the verses and commentary.
Audarya-lila Dasa - May 1, 2007 12:42 am
Here's what I have in my edition of Govinda Bhasya:
2.1.34 is the beginning of Adhikarana 10 - The Lord is neither partial nor cruel.
The author again raises an objection and then goes on to remove the doubt. The theory, that Brahman is the Creator, is open to the objection that the Lord is either partial or cruel; for He creates Devas and men, some of whom enjoy happiness and others suffer misery. This theory is, therefore, not a congruous one. But the texts say that the Lord is neither cruel nor partial. How can then such a Lord be the Creator? To this objection the author answers by the following sutra:
Sutra 2.1.34
Vaisamya Nairghrinyena Na Sapeksatvat Tatha Hi Darsayati
There exist no partiality and cruelty in the Lord because the pleasure and pain, suffered by beings, has regard to their karmas, and so also the scriptures declare.
Commentary
In Brahman, as Creator, there exists no fault of paritality or cruelty. The differences of condition in which creatures are born, and the pleasure and pain which they suffer, depend on their own karmas, and the Lord creates the environment, in which the creatures are placed, with the strictest regard to such karma. The proof of this is in the scripture itself. For in the Kansitaki Upanisad III.8 we find the following:
For He makes him whom He wishes to lead up from these worlds do a good deed, according to the tendencies created by his past karmas, and the same makes him whom He wishes to lead down from these worlds, do a bad deed, according to bad tendencies generated by the past karmas.
Note - Every act of an is really done under the will of the Lord. A man can do a good or bad deed, only if the Lord so wills it, for He is the sole agent in this world. But this world of the Lord is not capricious and lawless. The man who has done good karmas in the past, gets further energy from the Lord to do better karmas in this life, and thus rise higher. It is in this way only that the Lord makes him whom He wishes to lead up from these worlds do a good deed. And so also the reverse. The wish of the Lord has always regard to the karmas of the jiva.
Jivas get the condition of Devahood through the will of the Lord, similarly they get the condition of the denizens of hell through the same will of the Lord. The Lord is the operative cause of the suffering and the enjoyment of the Jivas. But this will of the Lord has always regard to the karma of the jiva.
Sutra 2.1.35
Na Karma Avibhagat Iti Chet Na Anaditvat
(The theory of karma) cannot (explain the inequalities and cruelty seen in this universe, because when the creation first started) there was no distinction (of souls and consequently) of karmas. This (objection however) is not valid, because there is no beginning of creation
Commentary
An objector may say your theory of karma only pushes the difficulty one step back. No doubt, it explains to some extent the inequalities and sufferings of Jivas in their present life. They may be the results of acts done in the past life. But since in the beginning of creation, there were no Jivas, nor were their acts, they must have been created with inequalities, in order to act differently. If they had been created all equal, there is no reason to hold that their acts would have been different. The Sruti also says, 'the Being or the God (Sat) alone existed in the beginning, one only without a second' (Chandogya 6.1) This shows that when the creaton started, there was no karman or Jivas, distenguishable from Brahman. He alone existed, all in all. This this objection, raised in the first half of the Sutra, the next half gives the answer, by saying, 'this is not so, because of the beginninglessness.' The karmas and the Jivas are beginningless, just like Brahman, and this is the theory of the author. Thus there is no fault, because every subsequent karma is motived by the tendencies generated by the past karmas. In Pralaya, the karmas, good or bad, done by the Jivas are not absolutely destroyed. The next kalpa is conditioned by the karmas of the past. So also in the Bhavisya Purana-
"The Lord Vishnu makes the Jivas do good or bad deeds in accordance with their past karmas, nor is ther any confliect in this position, because the karmas have no beginning."
If you say that karmas being beginningless, the theory is tainted with the fault of regressus in infinitum, we say it is not so, because we find authority in reason also. The well known case of the seed and the tree is in point. Is the seed first or the tree? Nor is it any objection that God being bound to create according to karmas of the Souls, loses His independence. The Lord certainly is independent, but He is not capricious and whimsical. Had He created the world with perfect disregard to the karmas of the Jivas, He might have proved His omnipotence to some minds, but to the majority, His act would have appeared capricioius and cruel. IN fact, the authorities clearly show that the substance and karma and time are equally co-eternal with the Lord, and He creates the univers, with a full regard to all of these three. It is not only the karma that conditions the universe, but the substance (or the matter stuff), and time are also important factors in creation. Of course, these three are subordinate to Isvara, but He never disregards their existence in His act of creation. The Lord is not partial or cruel, or wanting in omnipotence. In fact, the theory of karman and the beginninglessness of creation reconcile all the diffculties. You cannot say that this theory is open to the same objectoin as the theory of specific creation. You cannot say it is the falling of the smugglers unwittingly into the hands of the tax collectors.
Note- Certain merchants, in order to evade customs duties, went by a roundabout way, to avoid the customs house. IN the dark night, they missed their way, and after wandering for some time, they took shelter in a roadside house. In the morning, it was found that the house in which they had taken shelter, was the customs houlse which the traders were trying to avoid. Thus they had not only to pay the tax, but were punished also for trying to cheat customs. This maxim is called,'Morning in the customs house'.
Our theory is not open to this objection of 'Morning in the customs house.' IN order to avoid the imputation of curelty and inequality to the Lord, we have explained the eternity of creation, and you cannot say that since the Lord is not bound to regard the karmas, because He is independent, His creation a world full of mistery, simply to punish the souls for their karmas, brings you back to the same difficulty, which you were trying to avoid. The Lord, being perfectly independent, certainly could have created a world full of joy, and with complete disregard to the karma of the Jivas. But then His actions, instead of being regulated by any law, would have been lawless, and it would not be a creditable attribute of the Lord. Therefore, His creation of a world with perfect regard to the karma of the Jivas, and to time and substance, does not detract from His omnipotence. But it rather shows forth His great wisdom and compassion. Though He can act against all the laws of matter, spirit and karma, yet He is not doing so, and His making the Jivas act in accordance with the tendencies generated by their beginningless karma, is a matter for his glory, and not an instance of His partiality.
Adhikarana 11 deals with the Lords partiality in terms of His quality of Bhakta Vatsala
Vivek - May 1, 2007 3:12 am
But i thought that even the material world created out of joy and is an abode of joy. Why does the commentary say that it comes with justice of karma and is a place of misery.
Madan Gopal Das - May 1, 2007 10:01 am
I have cut and paste bits and pieces of the Govinda bhasya commentary in order to put out some thoughts I had about it...
The man who has done good karmas in the past, gets further energy from the Lord to do better karmas in this life, and thus rise higher. It is in this way only that the Lord makes him whom He wishes to lead up from these worlds do a good deed.
The Lord is the operative cause of the suffering and the enjoyment of the Jivas. But this will of the Lord has always regard to the karma of the jiva.
So also in the Bhavisya Purana-
"The Lord Vishnu makes the Jivas do good or bad deeds in accordance with their past karmas, nor is there any confliect in this position, because the karmas have no beginning."
These were the thoughts going through my head when I read this: Where is the freewill of the jiva in all of this? It sounds as if the jiva does not even have the choice to decide how to respond to past karma. We understand that the response to manifesting karma will set ones future karmic path. Yet at the same time, conditioning is such that it is hard to say that the jiva will "decide" how to respond, because in actuality the jiva's response will likely also be a product of conditioning. Such is the nature of this beginningless karmic cycle...
While karma is beginningless, it is not endless...
The next point to consider is that from the commentary above it could be argued that the Lord is partial, giving some souls suffering, some happiness, and then some he is awarding liberation! If the Lord is making the jiva do good or bad deeds, it would seem that he is also making the jiva pursue liberation, right? But really, all interest the jiva has in pursuing spiritual life is due to mercy, descending from above. By the combination of suffering in the material world and the descent of mercy, the jiva becomes inclined towards ending the karmic cycle.
Finally, it is important to remember that this is Visnu controlling the ups and downs of karma, managing the material world. As for the independence or freewill of the jiva, all we have is love. Love is not a "good" or pious activity that is involved in the karmic cycle. We go up and down and all around in karma until we give the svarupa sakti a taste of our love. Soon after the cycle of karma will end.
Vivek: But i thought that even the material world created out of joy and is an abode of joy. Why does the commentary say that it comes with justice of karma and is a place of misery.
The material world is created out of joy in this sense; the fulfillment of its purpose will be in bringing the jiva under the shelter of the lord.
The material world being a place of joy is only the vision of a devotee; visvam purna sukhayate. When under the influence of the svarupa sakti, the uttama bhakta sees that everything has its place and appears perfect. The material world becomes spiritualized under such vision of a devotee, and the devotee feels no absence from krsna or his devotees or his service. A madhyam bhakta would say dukhalayam asasvatam! And certainly the non-devotees experience the material world in this way...
Swami - May 1, 2007 11:42 am
lokavat tu lila kaivalyam is the sutra that preceeds the two cited above. It explains that the world is not manifest becasue Brahman has some purpose to fulfill, being unfulfilled. No, the world is an expression of joy. It is lila, play. However, such play does not override karma, an eternal reality.
It is not possible to fully comprehend anadi karma with one's intellect. Only through sadhana and grace can it be realized. Know that there are things that lie outside of the scope of intelligence, thank God.
Swami - May 1, 2007 3:15 pm
Another point to consider regarding the concept of anadi karma is that if do away with this you open the door for one of two other logical problems.
1. If karma is not anadi, then baddha jivas must have fallen from the paravyoma. This is a much greater problem, for if one can fall from Vaikuntha, where will the impetus to go there come from, etc.?
2. If you say that no one falls from Vaikuntha, then the baddha jiva must have been created out of nothing. If the jiva did not exist in a potential or seed state, then an absolutely non-existing thing would be produced during creation. How can there be an effect that is not found in some form within its cause? If God is eternal, so too must be the jivas. If the jiva has a beginning in time and at one point did not exist, then it is not eternal.This also not plausible. Whatever exists will always exist and whatever does not exist will never exist.
Whenever the world manifests the principle of justice or karma is also manifest. As jivas interact with the world it reacts determining the jivas’s suffering and enjoyment. Jivas outside of susupti are always doing something and this action determines their pleasure and pain. If this is not the case, then suffering and enjoyment must somehow be allotted without reference to previous pious and impious deeds. Again, this means that there would be an effect without a cause and no regulating or governing law by which nature proceeds.
Of course beyond such logic is the fact that scripture (revelation) speaks of anadi karma.
Vivek - May 1, 2007 3:37 pm
So now we can understand how BVT and sridhar maharaja had to talk about the initial choice for the jivas when they are out of susupti for the "first time". Putting the blame on the jiva as the intellect is not able to comprehend this. So acaryas think that it is better for jivas to blame themselves completly rather than blame krsna for their predicament for that reduces the chance of cultivating pure love(althought actually it is anadi karma). I actually I had met a disciple of B.G Narisingha Maharaja, but he was insistent that jivas have fallen from brahmajyoti and BVT's version is the final one and his guru has made it clear many times.
Baladeva vidyabhusana's commentary seems to be heavily inspired by madhava as he is almost giving no importance to free-will, with the bad karma and good karma also being carried out due to will of the lord(not as a overseer or permitter but as part of his predestined plan). According to madhva there is no free will and there are predestined demoniac souls. And the souls who are going to go back to Godhead are also predestined and their time of going is also predestined.
Vivek - May 1, 2007 4:03 pm
In some sense there is actually a common ground behind atheistic scientists and us! Both agree that the world has to purpose to fulfil but for us it is krsna's sport for them it is just nothing. I can understand though that while speaking about scientists prabhupada would not use these points, instead he will say that material world is a prisonhouse with a "purpose" meant to bring rebellious souls back to Godhead.
Is the use of the term "prisonhouse" for the material world just meant to fuel the bhajana of the conditioned soul as he cannot see the world as abode of joy?
Vivek - May 1, 2007 5:30 pm
i meant world has "no" purpose to fulfil
Gopisvara Dasa - May 3, 2007 1:11 am
I would say it is a pretty appropriate term,as we are prisoners of our own device. When we exercise our free will in accordance with our real nature (loving service) we are accessing more freedom. Otherwise the modes are acting and we are bound to go along for the ride.
Swami - May 3, 2007 5:57 pm
Another point to consider when discussing BVT's writing concerning the "tatastha' region and the jiva's choice to go up or down is that according to sastra the jiva choosing to go to Vaikuntha is not enough to get one there. Entrance therein is not attained without grace. What then to speak of Goloka. Divine service is not our right.