Tattva-viveka
Applications of faith
Syamasundara - May 28, 2007 6:21 am
OK I have a faith crisis. I mean, not THAT faith crisis. It's not even much of a crisis, as I may even know the answer already, I just wanted to get some feedback.
So, here I am, stranded in some place of this planet once again. This time it's San Diego, CA. I received a job offer from a devotee that I couldn't turn down, so here I am, I left Portland on Thursday, and have been living in a youth hostel since then. I had found so many rentals on craigslist, studios, shared rooms, different options, but I didn't even bother getting in touch before coming here, as these rooms go away very fast. I have been looking since I settled down in the hostel. Some people want a one-year lease, one room was wired for internet but I need to get my own account (yeah, for 3 months?) cuz the owner lives in Mexico and is the only one who could call tech support if it was in his name....
Things like that.
The hostel situation hasn't been smooth either. I had booked 4 days in here, thinking it'd be plenty to find a room. Turns out I had clicked on female dorm, and by the time the manager emailed me back, all there was was one 6bed one night, one 4 bed the following night, none on the 26th, and a private, expensive room on the 27th.
Meanwhile I was looking for rentals, and getting really worried and depressed.
So that was the preamble. It reminds me of when I was broke and unemployed in Ireland, Spain, Milan, recurring pattern.
I start to pray intensely, because in those instances it's really all that remains to do for me.
Then the turmoil starts: I pray Krsna for help, I remember and remind myself that he is my only shelter anyway, even when things go smooth for me, so I feel stupid for praying, as if I dind't have full faith that he will take care of me.
But let's go chronologically. After the last room I saw proved to be not right for me, and I had to check out of the hostel in the morning, all I had was hope and prayer. I started to think of the presiding deities here, Radha-Giridhari:
"Dear Giridhari, I have come to your city under the request of my guru; this job is also a seva for me, as I will be able to help him financially a bit, as well as getting my material life together, so I can focus on my spiritual life, and now that I am here you don't give me any shelter?"
Well, it wasn't that challenging, it was more an acknowledging that I have no shelter other than him anyway. The Lord is Visvambhara, so why should I worry for my sustenance? I should just chant his name. I hadn't even been able to begin my rounds.
So on the way to the hostel I just chanted Radha Giridhari. My evening was lighter. I was distracted by some Spanish guys who shared the same room and were very funny, and an Australian guy told me that 12 people didn't show up, that's why he got to stay one more night. Sure enough, I got online on the morning I had to check out, and I managed to extend my stay two more days (ending tonight). I didn't really solve much, I am still homeless, but at least I didn't end up in the street or in some expensive hotel (damn memorial day week-end).
At any rate, the night before I was all desperate, and the morning after I was so relieved, a guy responded to my email, they are renting a room for June through August and they are vegetarians! I had a place to stay for two days, I started to shop for things I'll need on my job, like sunglasses and a hat, or clothes, and went to the temple on Sat night, as well as tonight.
This happened so many times. So my question is, which is the correct way? Is it right to resort to Krsna as our only shelter and pray to him, although it seems like a lack of faith that he's taking care of us? Or should we just be chill no matter what, like the stereotypical hindu brahmin, who is fully confident that the Lord will send whatever is the best for us; at the same time, doesn't this latter mentality feel a little off, like we are trrating Krsna like someone who is at our service?
Maybe there is no black or white answer. I guess it has to do with the advancement of the devotee. Bhaktivinoda Thakura and Queen Kunti make it quite clear that moments of despair are welcome as they make us think of Krsna, so they don't think it's stupid to pray, but that's probably an encouragement for neophytes. A real devotee doesn't need bad luck to remember Krsna, he or she need nothing, they just keep him in their heart.
Meanwhile, the $350-room guy said his housemate is not moving out until the 15th, so here I am again, wondering what I should do. Despair? Just relax, because Krsna will provide, so I should just keep an eye on the ads and the right thing will just happen at the right moment? Also, as long as I have to go after rentals I can't start working...
Anyway, any feedback welcome under dotted line
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Syamasundara - May 29, 2007 2:46 am
......I guess you're all having the same faith crisis?
Vrindavandas - May 29, 2007 3:23 am
I suggest moving into the temple or moving in with some of the devotees in the area. I can give you the phone # to one of my good friends who is in charge of the sastra dana program down there.
Babhru Das - May 29, 2007 5:32 am
I'm not sure he'd find it easy to move into the temple. I hear different things about the current management, some good and some not so good. They may be a little uptight if they find out who your guru is. On the other hand, everyone there knew I had a relationship with Swami (although they may not have known its depth), and no one hassled me about it. (I didn't advertise it, but it wasn't a state secret, either.) And maybe Vridnavan's recommendation to his friend there might smoothe things for you. I was wondering who the devotee is, and what the job is. Maybe this devotee could help you find a place to stay with some more broad-minded devotees in the meantime.
Madhavendra Puri Dasa - May 29, 2007 9:11 am
Haribolo Syamasundar
There is not much I can help, I don't know how life looks like out there in US, but few times I was in the same situation (or similar). Once I went to Spain from Poland, looking for some job, I was completely broken. I left my wife home, I had something like 40$ and I hitchhiked first to Denmark, where I spent about month doing some basking on the street, and from there to Barcelona. In Barcelona, first night I was robbed by group of Marrocans who kicked the s... out of me and took all money I earned in Denmark. I was asking Krishna, why it is happening and I was thinking all the time, that probably the time Krsna will help me is close. So from Barcelona I went to Madrid, and then to Malaga and asked temple managers to let me set my tenth in the garden. Temple commander was nice guy, he had nothing against, specially after I explained to him my situation, but the one of the temple presidents showed up, and basically he expressed to me,that it would be nice if I dont stay too long (I presume I wasn't looking exactly like a regular devotee, after all this travel and being bitten up just little while before). So I left Malaga, and turn to Granada, that is not so far from there, hoping that maybe I will get some luck there. To make story short it didn't work; I had to sleep in some old cave, which stinked of dead donkey who died there little earlier, basking was terrible, and finally I decided to go back, and that took me about week, because I couldn't get a ride. In one point, there was about 40 degrees, and I was waiting for a ride on some gas station near Murcia for 3 days! Only food I had was bread and bag of onions I got from some track driver. Any way finally I got home looking like a skeleton, and then I started thinking what was the lesson I was suppose to learn. I wish everything went smooth during that journey, so I could see how Krishna takes care for me, and to be grateful to Him. Somehow nothing worked out, and all the way I just had a bad luck. Finally I am not sure if I figured properly that lesson. I saw few things I learned and how it changed me, but I am writing you this story that maybe you will be able to look at your situation with little distance, and when there is a distance, frustration isn't that heavy. I know how difficult it is when it is just in the front of your face, and when I have problems I usually don't succeed with this "distance attitude", but maybe you will do better. Any way I know exactly what u are feeling and I'm symphetising with you.
To cheer u up I can tell u one, small, funny story that gave me smile during that trip.
So it was Madrid. I just slept all night on the street (actually I slept maybe 2-3 hours, rest of the time just wandering on the streets). I am hungry and dirty, and thinking only about going home, to my family, my wife, I almost cried. It's raining cats and dogs. I decided to send a letter to my wife. I went to the post office and afterwords I realised that the guy in the office made mistake, and I payed 2 euros more then I was supposed. Ok, I said, what to do. Then I wanted to change my coins (that I had from basking) into paper money(it was quite heavy). Unfortunately no bank wanted to do it, because I wasn't customer. I felt like a small kid left on the street. I decided to call Tulasi (my wife) but few phone boots, that I checked one by one were broken. That was it. I put my accordion and all belongings on the street, I looked up, completely wet from the rain, and I said: "Are u happy Krsna?! Are u happy? Is there anything else u want to do to me?!!" And while I was saying that, I felt big, warm drop of rain falling on my face, which spread on my jacket as well. And then I realised it wasn't rain- it was huge bird's poo 
And now I was standing in the Madrid centre, hungry, cold, wet and now covered with this "nectar".
But in that moment something broke in me, and I just started to laugh, and I felt incredible relief. I think in that moment I felt, that ok- Krsna didn't helped me as I wanted, making my life smooth and easy, but in some way He responded to me, and this feeling was just great.
Any way, good luck Syamasundar, I hope u will find something soon. Take care.
Dhiralalita - May 29, 2007 2:11 pm
......I guess you're all having the same faith crisis?
If you are interested I could ask my good friends Kanka and Vaikunthanath who are favorable to Tripurari swami.
They might host you for a couple weeks...
Email me...
Syamasundara - May 29, 2007 8:01 pm
Wow, I'm struck by Madhavendra's recounts. To be clear, I wasn't trying to tell you my sob story. I know it will work out somewhow; technically I have enough savings to stay at the hotel I'm in right now for 3 months, but I am here to make money, not to spend it all.
I appreciate everybody's help, but my point was:
Is it better to pray intensely for help, and then feel so stupid and guilty when Krsna takes care of everything, which probably would have happened anyway, or should we just be confident and untouched because Krsna maintains everybody, but at the risk of treating Krsna like our servant?
Otherwise, Vaikunthadeva told me pretty much what Babhru said about the management, and I am not entirely sure I want to live with a devotee, especially of another guru-varga. It's a kind of tension I don't need right now.
Other than that I did go to New Govardhana over the weekend. Those deities are mind-blowingly beautiful. GM, you served there to some extent, right?
I saw online that they had a Saturday sat-sung, so I went. Boy, now I know why they call it sung... the program said bhajans, arati, japa, and prasada, but the bhajans were sung by a professional singer anda tabla player, the audience were all Indians apart from me, all sitting there quietly. It felt somewhat distant from Mahaprabhu's message. The bhajans were in Hindi, Rama bhajans, and assorted songs. Anyway, then the curtain opened and I got a closer darsana. I totally forgot all my troubles, and even when I remembered and reminded myself to petition the Lord, I couldn't be bothered with that, I had to drink their beauty.
On Sunday I went to the festival, but there happened to be some Prabhupada festival in LA I wasn't aware of, so when the arati began, no one was there, and the pujari asked me to sing! I was so honored. It felt like singing the national anthem before a ball game, but much better.
There were only a few Indian guests, one told me to go by the microphone. I was just doing all the devotees were telling me to. I must admit leading a kirtan with a microphone is much easier, it takes a lot of the tension away, and one can sing sweetly for the deities, almost to himself, with feeling, but everybody can take part and sing along.
By the time the kirtan ended I turned around and the room was full, and there I was with my checkered shorts and T-shirt. Like the pujari said: time, place and circumstance.
Anyway, I took it as some special favor from Radha-Giridhari, like if they wanted to showcase me, as a member of the guruvarga I belong to. It's funny, the more I try to be invisible to avoid trouble, the more I end up leading kirtans or cooking and what not, like in Iskcon Madrid.
I don't look for it, but all in all I think it's good when it happens. Like in Madrid, no one here knows whose disciple I am, but if they get to know me as a person, or the bit of a devotee that I am, then they might think: "Well he may be a disciple of 'Tripurari', or a homosexual, but he seems pretty impeccable; he doesn't preach aggressively, but says sound things, he sings, cooks and does everything so nicely." I am exaggerating of course to make a point, but whatever good quality is found in me is obviously guru-prasada and meant for guruseva. The bad sides of me are all my doing, though...
Speaking of preaching, boy, this time I really had a hard time.
Usually the classes, especially on Sundays, are so boring and flat, and the few good points are so inexpertly conveyed that I just want to leave to not make offenses in my mind, but this time the talk was by a 25-year involved brahmacari, who has a science background. For the first time, I saw some vague and remote similarities with the classes of my GM, although the style was different, but during the question, of all topics, they started to talk about the fall from Vaikuntha issue. I did my best to keep my mouth shut, first, not to attract the attention on me, second, because I didn't feel philosophically strong, but it hurt to hear the Truth be treated that way.
The only reference I could have fished out was yad gatva na nivartante, but they could have easily said: "Right, once you get there you don't go back, but we are talking of those who were "born" there." His point is that we all have free will, and although a very reduced minority, some of those souls, do start wondering about being separate from Krsna's service.
That's obviously the reasoning of someone who hasn't even theoretically grasped what kind of absorption they have in goloka. If they faint for not seeing Krsna for a split second? Last night I was reading the Gopi gita and thinking of the deer sweeping the path before Krsna goes cow herding barefoot in the morning, and the extasy the thorns and the pebbles feel for being functional to the deer's service to Krsna.
At the same time, this devotee, and all the others, had the backing of SP's words, which seems like enough to me for not thinking any further in most cases, especially in the society SP himself founded. Myself I didn't know who else to quote in a substantial way, other than mentioning their names. It made me realize that I wasn't much different from that devotee, taking my guru's words for good, without even trying to put thought into the matter and understand it myself, so I can explain it. I'll have to go back to that thread and read it again.
However, the origin of the soul is a marginal (haha) thing, as long as we agree on the goal and the urgency to attain it. What was more disturbing was when he said that we are pleasure seekers and that happiness is our prayojana (he just said goal), so a girl asked why is it that at the end we don't even care for our own happiness? What is the goal then? The devotee didn't quite answer. Another weird thing he said is that like a father advising not to get your finger in the fan, but then letting the child do it, Krsna first tells us not to go to the material world, and when we do, he keeps telling us to get out and how. He said, ultimately, after getting our finger whacked so many times in the fan, we all get it and get out of the material world...
Really? No mention of mercy or cultivation of a love relatioship.
Of course I am reporting all this as food for thought, although a bit off the topic, not as mere criticism. I know I got home encouraged to learn more, and my mind was engaged in buddhi yoga during that class, but man it hurt to endure it in silence. Luckily I'll be working weekends, so I won't even have to take the decision of not going there anymore.
I couldn't take pics of the deities in their beautiful ekadasi red outfit, but if you go to www.newgovardhan.us you'll be flooded with nectar.
Syamasundara - May 30, 2007 9:18 pm
OK maybe I've got the answer. It's pretty much what I said before. At first we despair and pray so much, like when my niece's son would wake up and start crying for food as if nobody cared about him, even though his mother was doing nothing other than heating it up. Then, as saranagati and knowledge become more than concepts, we become more fearless and serene: abhaya caranaravinde. There is not one right conduct, but it's according to one's advancement. Ok, so then why do people like Narottama dasa Thakura or BVT do pray so fervently? Only to set an example?
Babhru Das - May 30, 2007 9:43 pm
Is it Vaikunthadev who's employing you? Does he have any ideas about where to stay?
Regarding Bhaktivinoda And Narottama's fervent prayers, they're likely expressions and examples, simultaneously, of saranagati. Your question reminded me of something attributed to C. S. Lewis in the film Shadowlands: "I pray because I can't help myself. I pray because I'm helpless. I pray because the need flows out of me all the time, waking and sleeping. It doesn't change God. It changes me."
Vivek - May 30, 2007 11:49 pm
Wow, I'm struck by Madhavendra's recounts. To be clear, I wasn't trying to tell you my sob story. I know it will work out somewhow; technically I have enough savings to stay at the hotel I'm in right now for 3 months, but I am here to make money, not to spend it all.
I appreciate everybody's help, but my point was:
Is it better to pray intensely for help, and then feel so stupid and guilty when Krsna takes care of everything, which probably would have happened anyway, or should we just be confident and untouched because Krsna maintains everybody, but at the risk of treating Krsna like our servant?
Otherwise, Vaikunthadeva told me pretty much what Babhru said about the management, and I am not entirely sure I want to live with a devotee, especially of another guru-varga. It's a kind of tension I don't need right now.
Other than that I did go to New Govardhana over the weekend. Those deities are mind-blowingly beautiful. GM, you served there to some extent, right?
I saw online that they had a Saturday sat-sung, so I went. Boy, now I know why they call it sung... the program said bhajans, arati, japa, and prasada, but the bhajans were sung by a professional singer anda tabla player, the audience were all Indians apart from me, all sitting there quietly. It felt somewhat distant from Mahaprabhu's message. The bhajans were in Hindi, Rama bhajans, and assorted songs. Anyway, then the curtain opened and I got a closer darsana. I totally forgot all my troubles, and even when I remembered and reminded myself to petition the Lord, I couldn't be bothered with that, I had to drink their beauty.
On Sunday I went to the festival, but there happened to be some Prabhupada festival in LA I wasn't aware of, so when the arati began, no one was there, and the pujari asked me to sing! I was so honored. It felt like singing the national anthem before a ball game, but much better.
There were only a few Indian guests, one told me to go by the microphone. I was just doing all the devotees were telling me to. I must admit leading a kirtan with a microphone is much easier, it takes a lot of the tension away, and one can sing sweetly for the deities, almost to himself, with feeling, but everybody can take part and sing along.
By the time the kirtan ended I turned around and the room was full, and there I was with my checkered shorts and T-shirt. Like the pujari said: time, place and circumstance.
Anyway, I took it as some special favor from Radha-Giridhari, like if they wanted to showcase me, as a member of the guruvarga I belong to. It's funny, the more I try to be invisible to avoid trouble, the more I end up leading kirtans or cooking and what not, like in Iskcon Madrid.
I don't look for it, but all in all I think it's good when it happens. Like in Madrid, no one here knows whose disciple I am, but if they get to know me as a person, or the bit of a devotee that I am, then they might think: "Well he may be a disciple of 'Tripurari', or a homosexual, but he seems pretty impeccable; he doesn't preach aggressively, but says sound things, he sings, cooks and does everything so nicely." I am exaggerating of course to make a point, but whatever good quality is found in me is obviously guru-prasada and meant for guruseva. The bad sides of me are all my doing, though...
Speaking of preaching, boy, this time I really had a hard time.
Usually the classes, especially on Sundays, are so boring and flat, and the few good points are so inexpertly conveyed that I just want to leave to not make offenses in my mind, but this time the talk was by a 25-year involved brahmacari, who has a science background. For the first time, I saw some vague and remote similarities with the classes of my GM, although the style was different, but during the question, of all topics, they started to talk about the fall from Vaikuntha issue. I did my best to keep my mouth shut, first, not to attract the attention on me, second, because I didn't feel philosophically strong, but it hurt to hear the Truth be treated that way.
The only reference I could have fished out was yad gatva na nivartante, but they could have easily said: "Right, once you get there you don't go back, but we are talking of those who were "born" there." His point is that we all have free will, and although a very reduced minority, some of those souls, do start wondering about being separate from Krsna's service.
That's obviously the reasoning of someone who hasn't even theoretically grasped what kind of absorption they have in goloka. If they faint for not seeing Krsna for a split second? Last night I was reading the Gopi gita and thinking of the deer sweeping the path before Krsna goes cow herding barefoot in the morning, and the extasy the thorns and the pebbles feel for being functional to the deer's service to Krsna.
At the same time, this devotee, and all the others, had the backing of SP's words, which seems like enough to me for not thinking any further in most cases, especially in the society SP himself founded. Myself I didn't know who else to quote in a substantial way, other than mentioning their names. It made me realize that I wasn't much different from that devotee, taking my guru's words for good, without even trying to put thought into the matter and understand it myself, so I can explain it. I'll have to go back to that thread and read it again.
However, the origin of the soul is a marginal (haha) thing, as long as we agree on the goal and the urgency to attain it. What was more disturbing was when he said that we are pleasure seekers and that happiness is our prayojana (he just said goal), so a girl asked why is it that at the end we don't even care for our own happiness? What is the goal then? The devotee didn't quite answer. Another weird thing he said is that like a father advising not to get your finger in the fan, but then letting the child do it, Krsna first tells us not to go to the material world, and when we do, he keeps telling us to get out and how. He said, ultimately, after getting our finger whacked so many times in the fan, we all get it and get out of the material world...
Really? No mention of mercy or cultivation of a love relatioship.
Of course I am reporting all this as food for thought, although a bit off the topic, not as mere criticism. I know I got home encouraged to learn more, and my mind was engaged in buddhi yoga during that class, but man it hurt to endure it in silence. Luckily I'll be working weekends, so I won't even have to take the decision of not going there anymore.
I couldn't take pics of the deities in their beautiful ekadasi red outfit, but if you go to www.newgovardhan.us you'll be flooded with nectar.
The devotee though off the mark on most issues is not incorrect when he says that souls are pleasure seeking by nature. This has been spoken by BVT in Jaiva Dharma where he says that every soul wants to love and be loved. Pure love or priti is the goal in which we don't care about our own happiness but in that state the highest happiness or satisfaction is achieved(Rupa gosvami even says happiness in impersonal liberation is nothing compared to pure devotion so there is a measure of happiness spoken of. But by thinking that maximum happiness can be achieved by devotional service you are still acting on the intellectual level. There is a sort of contradiction that by not caring about your happiness you are the happiest, but this discussion is just on the level of intellect. Priti is a function of the soul not intellect .
Syamasundara - May 31, 2007 4:51 am
The devotee though off the mark on most issues is not incorrect when he says that souls are pleasure seeking by nature.
Never said he was :Raised Eyebrow:
OK I maybe I misworded, but GM says himself so many times that the soul is a pleasure seaker by nature, that I didn't see the need to reword it not to be misunderstood. What I was referring to is the fact that for him that was the goal.
Babhru-
Vaikunthadeva told me in which neighborhoods to look.
Syamasundara - June 5, 2007 4:48 am
I really didn't want this to be a thread about me, but since many have asked me, I'll reply here for all.
Yes, I have found a room. Sharing with a ˜60 y/o vegan photographer/artist/baby sitter lady. Consequently I also started working. The first day I was on Pacific Beach, where Radha-Giridhari are, so right after I could go to the end of the Sunday feast. There was a brahmacari named Mahat-tattva, with a German accent, who was heavily preaching about japa. Is he the one Madana Gopala brought up? He was saying to that mixed audience how once the devotees were preparing a Ratha Yatra and there was no time to chant, and SP said "They should abandon sleeping." Anyway, his point is that we do do crazy things for our beloved, so why not for Krsna?
Somehow I prefer how our GM talks about sacrifice, and the fact that sometimes it is him who says don't chant.
We're in such good hands. Speaking of which, still two rounds to chant...
Beautiful pictures of those beautiful deities are coming as soon as I find a way to upload an entire folder of pics on a webpage, as I'll never want to upload them one by one, resize them etc.