Tattva-viveka

The Significance of Dreams...

Philip Breakenridge - June 21, 2007 7:40 pm

Last night, I had a dream about Guru Maharaja in which we were both in a beautiful place, much like Audarya. I was watching him chant his japa when he approached me and said something I'm still trying to make sense of. It had something to do with marriage and compromise. :LMAO:

My friends in ISKCON say that instructions given to you by your guru in a dream are non-different than those given when you are awake. I feel very blessed to have had this dream, but the skeptic in me questions how intensely I should analyze it. It could be that my subconscious mind was just sorting through the day's events. Before I went to bed, I was talking to a friend who has been following another guru, but recently has become very attracted to GM and his teachings. Perhaps this is why I had such an auspicious dream.

What do you think? :Big Grin:

Nanda-tanuja Dasa - June 22, 2007 12:19 am

During dream state (svapna) we experience mental realm, so what you see depends on how well your conciseness can keep your mind at bay and of course how pure your mind is overall. There is a definite possibility to get prophetic dreams or get some messages from spiritual realm, but I personally would be very cautious to take any dream as spiritual. That being said I think dreaming of Audarya and Guru Maharaja is pretty auspicious :LMAO:

Syamasundara - June 22, 2007 6:30 am

I have all kinds of Audarya dreams that make my morning. The last one was on Tuesday, GM and I were talking about the word paramaradhita, which I don't think I ever heard before, although it makes perfect sense. The week before I was being intimate with Vrndaranya (I mean... in the guhyam akhyati prcchati sense). Basically every week. I also heard that about the guru appearing in a dream, but I don't know how valid it is when he or she is still here telling you things in your face and waiving big flags as if to guide an airplane (and yet we don't get it). I just make a mental note of my dreams, but for the most part, I can explain them psychologically, which is also helpful. All in all I feel really blessed when my mind goes to Audarya even when I'm sleeping. It makes me wanna sleep forever.... no, wait... :Big Grin: :LMAO:

Swami - June 22, 2007 10:32 am

The subject of dreams is addressed in the sutras of Vyasa, sutras 3.2.1-3.2.5. Dream consciousness (svapna) is the sandhya or junction between the waking state (jagrata) and deep dreamless sleep (susupti). In his commentary on the sutras dealing with dreams the venerable Baladeva Vidyabhusana explains that the figures appearing in dreams and dream sequences are created by God to distribute the results of minor good and evil acts one previously performed. He also writes that dreams are as real as that experienced in the waking state and cites as evidence that fact that sometimes solutions to medical problems are found in dreams, mantras are passed on in dreams, and objects seen in dreams are sometimes later seen in the waking state. Furthermore dreams often foretell of future events and those who know how to read them can thus predict the future.

However, I do not think that Sri Baladeva Vidyabhusana's comments plum the depths of human psychology and the nature of dreams, which are often the result of one's preoccupation during the waking state. I don't mean to contradict the acarya here. God is behind the dream state and dreams do play out one's karma. Furthermore they are sometimes divine in the sense of their being intervention that transcends karma, although such dreams are more rare. Dreaming about Sri Guru is always auspicious.

Brahma Dasa - June 28, 2007 4:53 am

It seems to me that Srila Prabhupada used to downplay the significance of dreams. Did Srila Prabhupada say anything that would validate the idea that ones karma is played out in dreams?

Swami - June 28, 2007 11:38 am

It seems to me that Srila Prabhupada used to downplay the significance of dreams. Did Srila Prabhupada say anything that would validate the idea that ones karma is played out in dreams?

for the most part he seems to have held a more modern idea about dreams then that found in the sutras. However, I do remember him saying somewhere that karma was played out in dreams. Unfortunately I cannot cite a reference.

Bhrigu - June 28, 2007 6:00 pm

In his statements about dreams, Baladeva Vidyabhushana is following Madhva, who I think among Indian philosophers is the one who gives most importance to deams. His super-realist philosophy almost forces him to do so. Baladeva is sometimes said to be a "crypto-Madhva", but one ISKCON devotee who has studied his writings closely (Dvijamani Dasa, David Buchta), has told me that Baladeva in fact seldom follows Madhva in his Vedanta-commentary. This is one place where he does, however.

I wonder if any other Gaudiya philosopher has dealt with dreams. I think Mahanambrata Brahmacari has something about dreams in his Vaishnava Vedanta, but I don't have the book with me right now.

I dreamt last night that I was vocalist in a band where Mikko played guitar. We played a gig in front of a large audience, and I of course had no idea of the lyrics I was supposed to sing. In the end Mikko and the others wrote them on large pieces of cardboard that they taped up so that no-one could see me (and thus that I didn't know the lyrics). Still, since I had no idea of the melody or anything else, this helped very little... I hope this dream that I won't have to play the gig in waking life (Sorry Mikko, nothing personal)!

Vivek - June 28, 2007 7:01 pm

From ramanuja's commentary on VS 3.2.5, he does refer to dreams as being created by supreme person as a means of minor retribution. I personally have only read some of ramanuja's commentary on VS closely and it looks like him and nimbarka are closer to jiva gosvami than madhava because of madhava's overemphasis on bheda. On the issue of dreams ramanuja and madhava seem to agree.

3.2.5. Or that (results) also from connexion with the body.

The obscuration of the soul's true nature results either from the soul's connexion with the body or from its connexion with the power of matter in a subtle state. As long as the creation lasts, the soul is obscured by its connexion with matter in the form of a body; at the time of a pralaya, on the other hand, by its connexion with matter of so exceedingly subtle a kind as not to admit of differentiation by means of name and form. As thus its true nature is not manifest, the soul is unable to create, in dreams, chariots, lotus tanks, and so on, by its mere wish. And what the texts say about a being that is awake in those who sleep and is the abode of all worlds ('in that all the worlds abide, and no one goes beyond it'--Ka. Up. II, 4, 9) can apply to the Supreme Person only. The things seen by an individual soul in its dreams therefore are specially created by the Supreme Person, and are meant by him to be a retribution--whether reward or punishment--for deeds of minor importance: they therefore last for the time of the dream only, and are perceived by that one soul only.

Madan Gopal Das - June 28, 2007 11:43 pm

These are quotes that I have stuck in my head when Prabhupada said something about dreams. The first may be the one Guru Maharaj is referring to:

SB 8.4.15p: Because of sinful activities, at night we have bad dreams, which are very troublesome. Indeed, Mahäräja Yudhiñöhira was obliged to see hell because of a slight deviation from devotional service to the Lord. Therefore, duùsvapna—bad dreams—occur because of sinful activities. A devotee sometimes accepts a sinful person as his disciple, and to counteract the sinful reactions he accepts from the disciple, he has to see a bad dream.

Krsna book: This body is exactly like one of the bodies which we always see in dreams. During our dream of sleep, we create so many bodies according to mental creation. We have seen gold, and we have also seen a mountain, so in a dream we can see a golden mountain by combining the two ideas. Sometimes in dreams we see that we have a body which is flying in the sky, and at that time we completely forget our present body. Similarly, these bodies are changing. When you have one body, you forget the past body. During a dream, we may make contact with so many new kinds of bodies, but when we are awake we forget them all. And actually these material bodies are the creations of our mental activities. But at the present moment we do not recollect our past bodies.

Brahma Dasa - June 29, 2007 2:29 am

Is this a quote from ramanuja's commentary on VS 3.2.5 ?

Can anyone suppy any relivant quotes from sastra?

Vivek - June 29, 2007 4:48 pm

The obscuration of the soul's true nature results either from the soul's connexion with the body or from its connexion with the power of matter in a subtle state. As long as the creation lasts, the soul is obscured by its connexion with matter in the form of a body; at the time of a pralaya, on the other hand, by its connexion with matter of so exceedingly subtle a kind as not to admit of differentiation by means of name and form. As thus its true nature is not manifest, the soul is unable to create, in dreams, chariots, lotus tanks, and so on, by its mere wish. And what the texts say about a being that is awake in those who sleep and is the abode of all worlds ('in that all the worlds abide, and no one goes beyond it'--Ka. Up. II, 4, 9) can apply to the Supreme Person only. The things seen by an individual soul in its dreams therefore are specially created by the Supreme Person, and are meant by him to be a retribution--whether reward or punishment--for deeds of minor importance: they therefore last for the time of the dream only, and are perceived by that one soul only.
Is this a quote from ramanuja's commentary on VS 3.2.5 ?

Can anyone suppy any relivant quotes from sastra?

Yes it is from ramanuja's commentary sri bhasya.

Vivek - June 29, 2007 4:49 pm

connection is mispelled as connexion for some strange reason

Vivek - July 11, 2007 6:55 pm

Dreams have been studied very elaborately by Carl Jung who took them very seriously. Even Wolflang Pauli, the great quantum physicist, who went to Jung for treatment for depression started to take dreams seriously. In fact he made a big attempt to bridge the gap of matter and spirit through science collborating with Jung on this issue. According to him that gap between the material and spiritual can be bridged only with application of eros or "intense yearning for spirit" and not just with an objective dispassionate search. Eros or "intense longing" according to Plato(from which Jung and Pauli bothered) is necessary to get to the trascendental realm of essences . He says that a philosopher should have the same passion for the truth and beauty like a lover for his beloved, and the conjugal union between the absolute, which is the sum of all trancendent ideas like beauty, goodness etc, and the individual soul is the expression of eros. Obviously although his absolute is not like attributeless brahman of sankara, he is not able to get to form of krsna either. Maybe he was quite close to the vision of krsna.

Sorry for digressing off topic.

Gopisvara Dasa - July 15, 2007 8:30 pm

The discussion of dreams is very interesting and I agree that there is much more at play than just random images. There are many different types of dreams,for example, one can have nightmares during a cleanse when toxins are circulating through the body or incorporate sounds they are hearing while sleeping. But in all this the dominant thrust is the subconscious gently trying to inform us of what we already know but are reluctant to look at. Our present awareness is so small compared to the chit of our real nature and to see it all at once would blow our circuits. So there is a constant gradual revealing/remembering going on. Just as one digests their food while at rest, ideas are also digested and in conjunction with the archetypes in the subconscious,conclusions are drawn to the degree that one is willing to relax the suppresion that has been used as a defense mechanism against painful and fearful thoughts. The path of love involves dismantling fear through awakening and acceptance of truth as it is. And of course, the Supersoul will help in this regard, especially if our goals are in alignment; the perfection of our life.