Tattva-viveka
spiritual name
Joseph Rael - June 30, 2007 11:38 pm
OF COURSE AS MOST OF THE READERS OF TATTVA-VIVEKA PROBABLY KNOW, I AM NOT FORMALY INITIATED AS A DEVOTEE. IN MY HEART AND SOUL I AM, AND I MAY HAVE BEEN IN A PAST INCARNATION , IF I HAVE BEEN IS IT NESSARY TO BE INITIATED AGAIN IN THIS LIFE TIME?
I FEEL SO CLOSE TO KRISHNA EVERY SECOND, MINUTE, DAY OF MY LIFE.
I CHANT ROUNDS DAILY , I DON'T KNOW ALL THE CHANTS FOR BURNING INSCENSE OR OFFERING FLOWERS AND FOOD TO MY DIETIES SO I JUST DO IT IN ENGLISH FROM MY HEART.
I FEEL I AM A DEVOTEE ALTHOUGH I AM NOT INITIATED INTO A SAMPRADAYA.
WHERE AM I?
I WNAT MY SPIRITUAL NAME TO BE BHAKTI DAS DAS.
IT HAS SPECIAL MEANING TO ME.
HELLO
CAN ANYONE HELP A 56 YEAR OLD DEVOTEES DILEMA?
NAMASTE...PRANAMS...HARE KRISHNA
Syamasundara - July 1, 2007 8:26 am
Even if you received initiation in a previous birth, you don't seem to be a jati-smara, i.e. you don't remember your previous birth, nor do you have a crystal clear idea of where you are picking up from. Also, since you are still here, it appears you haven't quite achieved perfection. As you have appeared again in another body, so will Sri Guru to carry out what was left to do with you.
Where is the big deal?
You may desire a particular name, and you can; the soul is a unit of desire. That's all we can do really, desire. However, this process is all about Krsna's desires and shifting the focus from our desires to desiring what he desires; the first reminder of that is the very name-giving ceremony, and believe me, surrendering to whatever name our guru chooses for us is but the beginning. You should know this from your previous life 
Joseph Rael - July 1, 2007 2:37 pm
Even if you received initiation in a previous birth, you don't seem to be a jati-smara, i.e. you don't remember your previous birth, nor do you have a crystal clear idea of where you are picking up from. Also, since you are still here, it appears you haven't quite achieved perfection. As you have appeared again in another body, so will Sri Guru to carry out what was left to do with you.Where is the big deal?
You may desire a particular name, and you can; the soul is a unit of desire. That's all we can do really, desire. However, this process is all about Krsna's desires and shifting the focus from our desires to desiring what he desires; the first reminder of that is the very name-giving ceremony, and believe me, surrendering to whatever name our guru chooses for us is but the beginning. You should know this from your previous life
Thank you for the butt lashing ( or so it seemed). My question was asked in true humility as I realize I am probaly not even worthy to be the dust on most of the devotees feet who frequent this board. I also realize what a fallen human being I am and have been, but my KC has been growing by leaps and bounds ,and being in an area where association with a Guru much less bonified devotees to associate with is non-existant, this has been my only forum.
I asked a question out of true humility and you seem to have ejoyed lording it over my obvious ignorance.
Thank You and Hare Krishna
All glories to Sri Guru and Gauranga
Citta Hari Dasa - July 1, 2007 4:00 pm
Joseph:
Yes, you need to be initiated in this life. Sriman Mahaprabhu set the example himself by taking initiation from Sri Isvara Puri.
With regard to the name the guru will give, if one has some inclination for a particular name there is no harm in mentioning it, but we should not be concerned if he or she sees fit to give us a name we did not expect. As Guru Maharaja has pointed out in the past, the most important part of our name is the "dasa" or "dasi". Initiation is the formal beginning of the process of surrender, and in sadhana-bhakti the primary work we are involved in is adopting the ego of a servant. If you are successful in that, rest assured that you will no longer care what your name is, you will only have infinite gratitude that a representative of Mahaprabhu was compassionate enough to give you one.
Joseph Rael - July 1, 2007 5:01 pm
Joseph:
Yes, you need to be initiated in this life. Sriman Mahaprabhu set the example himself by taking initiation from Sri Isvara Puri.
With regard to the name the guru will give, if one has some inclination for a particular name there is no harm in mentioning it, but we should not be concerned if he or she sees fit to give us a name we did not expect. As Guru Maharaja has pointed out in the past, the most important part of our name is the "dasa" or "dasi". Initiation is the formal beginning of the process of surrender, and in sadhana-bhakti the primary work we are involved in is adopting the ego of a servant. If you are successful in that, rest assured that you will no longer care what your name is, you will only have infinite gratitude that a representative of Mahaprabhu was compassionate enough to give you one.
Jaya Jaya Hare Krishna:
Thank you for your kind and illuminating reply.
Waiting for the day of my blissful, glorious,initiation.
All glories to Guru Maharaja
Syamasundara - July 2, 2007 3:39 am
Gee sorry. I replied to your post very late last night and after a horrible day. I decided to write nevertheless as nobody had helped you yet. When I read CH's post I thought we said the same things pretty much, but then I reread my post, and the tone of it really seemed like I just cared to underline your ignorance. So sorry.
Joseph Rael - July 2, 2007 10:15 pm
jaya jaya sri guru and gauranga. All glories to Guru Maharaja.Gee sorry. I replied to your post very late last night and after a horrible day. I decided to write nevertheless as nobody had helped you yet. When I read CH's post I thought we said the same things pretty much, but then I reread my post, and the tone of it really seemed like I just cared to :Hug:underline your ignorance. So sorry.
Thank you Syamasundara for your kind reply. Please excuse my nasty tone back to you. We are all captive in this material illusion and I am attempting with every breath to break free from my ignorance.
With the grace of Mahaprabhu, Lord Nitiananda, Srila Prabhupada, Swami Tripurari and the loving guidance from all the devotees on Tattva-viveka I have the utmost confidence in my future as the servant of the servant of the servant of the servant of the leastmost devotee of Sweet Govinda...I thank you all with the utmost reverance and genuine humility and I look forward to the day when Sri Guru will present my spiritual name and my wonderful journey will grow and expand to the edges of forever.
Pranams
Joseph Rael
Tadiya Dasi - July 3, 2007 5:17 pm
Joseph,
You've gotten some wonderful and thoughtful responses, but I though that I just add my two cents in the discussion 
About being a devotee and taking shelter of Sri Guru and Guru-parampara... In your first post, it seemed to me that you were wondering about the 'formality' of it all and somewhat questioning the need for such prodecure and seeing it being opposed to just 'approaching it from the heart." (Feeling close to Krishna, saying the prayers in English etc.) Well, I can kind of see where that's coming from, but still, that angle of vision loses sight of the fact that there are no rules in bhakti, save for the 'preferances of loving attachment' -which can seem like rules and rituals, etc.
After all, Guru Maharaj often says that it's not that we HAVE to surrender to a Guru (as in, it's a law) but we do it because we feel compelled to do so...we are drawn to surrender, not by force (and how can you force love anyways?), but by love. Formal initiation is a mere beginning of this process of surrender (saranagati). It starts with faith (shraddha) and from there on it's our task to cultivate this tender beginner's faith until it matures in the end of sadhana-bhakti along with saranagati. Faith and surrender go hand in hand, really.
And, also, it's the nature of devotees proper to hanker for the association of other devotees - even Krishna desires sadhu-sanga! If one is a devotee - really and truly - one naturally will feel great necessity for taking shelter of those devoted to Krishna. In fact, that can be used as a yard-stick for one's proggress...when you realize that whatever little bhakti you have is nothing but mercy from Krishna's devotees...you will naturally want to attach yourself to those devotees, realizing that they indeed are your life & soul. Yes, in one sense, everyone's a devotee of Krishna, but those who actually realize it will also have some corresponding ability to make wise decisions (with whom one should associate with, etc.) and thus ensure their proggress in spiritual life.
See Mahaprabhu's example: he in fact was Krishna himself, and still he prayed, "durdaivam idrsam ihajani nanuragah". He felt like that, "I am the most unfortunate, I have no love Krishna, no attraction." He praised the Name and the Named as most compassionate and wonderful...and lamented his own lack of taste. Compared to Sriman Mahaprabhu - how great is our lack of taste and how little is our awareness of it? When you think about it - it does make you want to take shelter of the Name.
Even the name you like - Bhakti das das - implies that one is a servant of the servants of bhakti. That's definetely a good way to approach this...
I can speak of myself that, really, this whole process of surrender and faith is all about associating with devotees, especially with those who REALLY are devotees (like Guru Maharaj). On my own....no ability to surrender...constant doubts...questioning...and whatever progress I have made has always been influenced and brought by Gurudev's mercy. I surrender (well, try to 
) because I know, here's a person who loves me and a person I have faith in.
In Audarya, I had many experiences seeing and hearing Guru Maharaj where my heart just 'went to him'. Naturally, by no conscious effort to surrender on my part. No intellectual planning like, hmmm, now I *have to* and *should* surrender, but by the natural urging of love. And think about it, we often call our guru-parampara simply "Bhaktivinoda's family" ( parivara). And when we praise the Gurus in our lineage after aratis etc. we recite the so-called prema-dhvani prayers, "the sounds of love."
Initiation - like bhakti itself - is an internal affair, but, after all, when two people are in love they often want to make it 'official' and anounce their love in public (as in, getting married, for example, and being a "real family") and it's the same in essence with spiritual life. Think of it as entering Sri Guru's and Mahaprabhu's family...you get all these great siblings, a loving parent and many great grandparents 
You may actually like this family much more than your own (biological) family 
I look forward to having you as my godbrother.
Prema-bhakti - July 3, 2007 6:04 pm
In Audarya, I had many experiences seeing and hearing Guru Maharaj where my heart just 'went to him'. Naturally, by no conscious effort to surrender on my part. No intellectual planning like, hmmm, now I *have to* and *should* surrender, but by the natural urging of love. And think about it, we often call our guru-parampara simply "Bhaktivinoda's family" ( parivara). And when we praise the Gurus in our lineage after aratis etc. we recite the so-called prema-dhvani prayers, "the sounds of love."
Initiation - like bhakti itself - is an internal affair, but, after all, when two people are in love they often want to make it 'official' and anounce their love in public (as in, getting married, for example, and being a "real family") and it's the same in essence with spiritual life. Think of it as entering Sri Guru's and Mahaprabhu's family...you get all these great siblings, a loving parent and many great grandparents
Yes, this is sooo true. Nice post Tadiya. I really appreciate your realizations and sentiments.
Syamasundara - July 4, 2007 4:33 am
Sadhu! Sadhu!
Joseph Rael - July 4, 2007 9:29 pm
Joseph,
You've gotten some wonderful and thoughtful responses, but I though that I just add my two cents in the discussion
About being a devotee and taking shelter of Sri Guru and Guru-parampara... In your first post, it seemed to me that you were wondering about the 'formality' of it all and somewhat questioning the need for such prodecure and seeing it being opposed to just 'approaching it from the heart." (Feeling close to Krishna, saying the prayers in English etc.) Well, I can kind of see where that's coming from, but still, that angle of vision loses sight of the fact that there are no rules in bhakti, save for the 'preferances of loving attachment' -which can seem like rules and rituals, etc.
After all, Guru Maharaj often says that it's not that we HAVE to surrender to a Guru (as in, it's a law) but we do it because we feel compelled to do so...we are drawn to surrender, not by force (and how can you force love anyways?), but by love. Formal initiation is a mere beginning of this process of surrender (saranagati). It starts with faith (shraddha) and from there on it's our task to cultivate this tender beginner's faith until it matures in the end of sadhana-bhakti along with saranagati. Faith and surrender go hand in hand, really.
And, also, it's the nature of devotees proper to hanker for the association of other devotees - even Krishna desires sadhu-sanga! If one is a devotee - really and truly - one naturally will feel great necessity for taking shelter of those devoted to Krishna. In fact, that can be used as a yard-stick for one's proggress...when you realize that whatever little bhakti you have is nothing but mercy from Krishna's devotees...you will naturally want to attach yourself to those devotees, realizing that they indeed are your life & soul. Yes, in one sense, everyone's a devotee of Krishna, but those who actually realize it will also have some corresponding ability to make wise decisions (with whom one should associate with, etc.) and thus ensure their proggress in spiritual life.
See Mahaprabhu's example: he in fact was Krishna himself, and still he prayed, "durdaivam idrsam ihajani nanuragah". He felt like that, "I am the most unfortunate, I have no love Krishna, no attraction." He praised the Name and the Named as most compassionate and wonderful...and lamented his own lack of taste. Compared to Sriman Mahaprabhu - how great is our lack of taste and how little is our awareness of it? When you think about it - it does make you want to take shelter of the Name.
Even the name you like - Bhakti das das - implies that one is a servant of the servants of bhakti. That's definetely a good way to approach this...
I can speak of myself that, really, this whole process of surrender and faith is all about associating with devotees, especially with those who REALLY are devotees (like Guru Maharaj). On my own....no ability to surrender...constant doubts...questioning...and whatever progress I have made has always been influenced and brought by Gurudev's mercy. I surrender (well, try to
In Audarya, I had many experiences seeing and hearing Guru Maharaj where my heart just 'went to him'. Naturally, by no conscious effort to surrender on my part. No intellectual planning like, hmmm, now I *have to* and *should* surrender, but by the natural urging of love. And think about it, we often call our guru-parampara simply "Bhaktivinoda's family" ( parivara). And when we praise the Gurus in our lineage after aratis etc. we recite the so-called prema-dhvani prayers, "the sounds of love."
Initiation - like bhakti itself - is an internal affair, but, after all, when two people are in love they often want to make it 'official' and anounce their love in public (as in, getting married, for example, and being a "real family") and it's the same in essence with spiritual life. Think of it as entering Sri Guru's and Mahaprabhu's family...you get all these great siblings, a loving parent and many great grandparents
I look forward to having you as my godbrother.
Hare Krishna Tadia.
Thank you for such an illuminating reply. You are so advanced for your young age....I aplaud you, and I offer you pranams.
It is so great being in Krsna's family. Although my questions may seem ignorant or trivial I feel any talk of Krsna is illuminating. I find all the wisdom of the Vedas in the Maha Mantra but it is wonderful having friends who are on the same road as I am. I am in a veritable desert here as far as K C goes, but I pull thru daily by chanting , offering inscence to my dieties and being on this forum. I am proud to be your God-Brother.
For Now... bhakta Joseph Rael
Citta Hari Dasa - July 5, 2007 3:23 pm
I am in a veritable desert here as far as K C goes,
Joseph, I noticed that you're located in Albuquerque. There are two very nice devotees in Pecos, Hamsavatara and his wife Yogamaya. You might do well to visit them from time to time--it's a lovely oasis.
Joseph Rael - July 6, 2007 12:32 am
Joseph, I noticed that you're located in Albuquerque. There are two very nice devotees in Pecos, Hamsavatara and his wife Yogamaya. You might do well to visit them from time to time--it's a lovely oasis.
Jaya Jay Hare Krishna.
I had contacted them once then lost thier e-mail address and location of thier retreat in Pecos...any help in finding this information would be appreciated.
Namaste
Thank YOU
God Bless YOU
All Glories to Sri Guru
Hare Krishna
Babhru Das - July 6, 2007 12:45 am
Their Web site is here. Hamsavatar's email address is balaji@vedicworld.org. Please tell him Babhru sends his affection and respect.