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Sanga on the SUN

Brahma Dasa - July 14, 2007 3:16 am

In relation to recent editorials on the Sun I submitted Swami's Sanga from 2005 entitled 'Never Leave Iskcon' and was suprised that Rocana published it right away. Now lets see what kind of response it gets from Sun readers (the so-called Prabhupadanugas).

Here it is: http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/07...torials1746.htm

Brahma

Nitai Joseph - July 14, 2007 3:23 am

In relation to recent editorials on the Sun I submitted Swami's Sanga from 2005 entitled 'Never Leave Iskcon' and was suprised that Rocana published it right away. Now lets see what kind of response it gets from Sun readers (the so-called Prabhupadanugas).

 

Brahma

Awesome!, they are in desperate need of some siddhanta over there. I am quite surprised he posted it, must have caught him at a "weak" moment.

Madhavendra Puri Dasa - July 14, 2007 8:46 am

Yeah, I saw it yestarday. But I am afraid of the reaction- they are very easely going into Vaisnava aparadha

Syama Gopala Dasa - July 14, 2007 9:03 am

Yeah, I saw it yestarday. But I am afraid of the reaction- they are very easely going into Vaisnava aparadha

At least honest devotees visiting the Sun will get truth for their time.

Brahma Dasa - July 14, 2007 5:49 pm

For obvious reasons I've avoided posting Sanga to the Sun, and in this case I suspect that there will be critiques, perhaps one by Rocana himself. However, there is a Bengali saying that Srila Prabhupada sometimes quoted that goes: “One should pick up gold even if it is found lying in a filthy place.”

In my opinon the Sun is a filthy place--but it does contain some worthwhile content particularly the excerpts from Bhakti Balabha Tirthas book on Sri Caitanya's associates. So in the spirit of picking up gold from a filthy place I posted this particular Sanga to the Sun. Lets see how it goes....perhaps the addition of more gold will add some shine to the SUN.

Madhavendra Puri Dasa - July 14, 2007 9:48 pm

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/07...torials1753.htm

There is some comment, but very poor and uninformed. Is anyone going to sent some answer to that?

Brahma Dasa - July 15, 2007 3:06 am

I expect more critiques and am prepared to reply to them. However, before I do I am going to wait and see what all is written. Perhaps I will be able to reply to everything in one submission. The information needed to reply to questions as found in the latest article is in the book:

Our Affectionate Guardians

http://www.gosai.com/chaitanya/srila_sridh...g_contents.html

I hope everyone has read this.

Babhru Das - July 15, 2007 3:52 am

There is some comment, but very poor and uninformed.

That's a very generous way of putting it.

Madhavendra Puri Dasa - July 15, 2007 9:16 pm

Still no replay. I think they just dont know how to relate to this. Usually they have standart exchange with Iskcon, the same arguments all the time, going forth and back, so when suddenly they get something completely different they dont know what to do with that

Babhru Das - July 15, 2007 10:28 pm

Now there's another one that responds briefly--and not too brightly.

http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/07-07/editorials1754.htm

Here's the relevant part:

At the same time, with respect to godbrothers and godsisters that have gone off to some other maths, now even HH Tripurari Maharaja is trying to say it is all part of the Samkirtan movement. While of course that holds water, to try and say that what he and many other godbrothers who also have their own missions are doing is the same as Srila Prabhupada's mission is just not the case, in my opinion and that of others. Srila Prabhupada has his mission, and he made very, very clear to us how he wanted to work together to maintain that mission. And here's the point Maharaja's and prabhu's -- he wanted us to maintain his mission, not go off and start your own or join someone else's.

Not very thoughtful stuff. They just recite some sentiment with no real support.

Nitai Joseph - July 16, 2007 3:25 am

Now there's another one that responds briefly--and not too brightly.

http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/07-07/editorials1754.htm

 

Here's the relevant part:

At the same time, with respect to godbrothers and godsisters that have gone off to some other maths, now even HH Tripurari Maharaja is trying to say it is all part of the Samkirtan movement. While of course that holds water, to try and say that what he and many other godbrothers who also have their own missions are doing is the same as Srila Prabhupada's mission is just not the case, in my opinion and that of others. Srila Prabhupada has his mission, and he made very, very clear to us how he wanted to work together to maintain that mission. And here's the point Maharaja's and prabhu's -- he wanted us to maintain his mission, not go off and start your own or join someone else's.

 

Not very thoughtful stuff. They just recite some sentiment with no real support.

This stuff drives me nuts, it might be better for me just not to read it. It always makes me want to write some reply and give it my all but I don't think it's good for my own proggression to do that. Of course Srila Prabhupada wanted us to maintain his mission, but his mission Samkirtan not ISKCON and it was only the latter as much as it's synonymous with the former. RAAH

Brahma Dasa - July 16, 2007 4:48 am

These two critiques are so inconsequential that they are not worth the time and effort to reply. Lets see what else turns up...

Babhru Das - July 16, 2007 5:45 am

I agree wholeheartedly. And in response to Nitai's sentiment, I also agree that it's best for most of us not to read it at all. It exists for one purpose: to agitate the mind. I mean, what does this fellow mean when he writes, "now even HH Tripurari Maharaja is trying to say it is all part of the Samkirtan movement." Even he admits this is correct, but then he tries to make some other lame point. What a waste of precious time and energy.

Citta Hari Dasa - July 16, 2007 6:16 pm

As Prabhupada liked to say (or so I've heard) "Let the dogs bark; the train will go on."

Madhavendra Puri Dasa - July 17, 2007 11:35 am

This quote apears in today sumpradaya.sun update, and though is not directly connected with Swami's sanga, article has few good points:

"Mahavidya Prabhu, you state in one of your articles “Er... Srila Prabhupada, your real disciples are leaving. They are going to preach. Just what exactly?”: The answer is, we are going to preach the Mission of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and our Guru Maharaja, Srila Prabhupada, the same mission that Srila Prabhupada preached himself when he left the fractured Gaudiya Matha. The institution is not the siddhanta. The siddhanta exists independent of the institution. The institution serves only as a vehicle to express the siddhanta. If the vehicle is not working then you can go to one that does or build a new one, but the siddhanta is never dependant on the institution. The institution is fully dependant on the siddhanta. Without the proper Siddhanta the institution is like an empty shell. So all I have been saying all along is to preach the siddhanta of the guru parampara. If you are happily engaged wherever you are and can preach freely without committing Vaishnava aparadha, then by all means stay where you are and preach.

However I get the sense from this and other websites that most devotees are not happy with their present circumstances, so if that is the case then just go out and preach. Srila Prabhupada once told me that: “the way to preach everywhere in the world is the same, read something from my books and explain it according to your realization”. So that should be simple enough. Try to concentrate more on preaching from the unedited books directly, that is the safest position, and then explain according to your realization. Then sell them a book. This is very simple. Then Srila Prabhupada will be happy and you will be blessed. Ameyatma Prabhu, who just wrote a fine article on the situation with the GBC and the DOM, has been preaching independently of ISKCON for several years. It does not seem to have affected his judgment in this matter; in fact his vision about the subject appears to be a lot clearer than most devotees in ISKCON. So just preach and it will clear your vision up completely. "

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/07...torials1759.htm

Does anyone know this devotee who wrote it?

Madan Gopal Das - July 17, 2007 12:13 pm

Does anyone know this devotee who wrote it?

His name is Bhagavat, he is Prabhupada's disciple. He spent a fair amount of time with Prabhupada in India, and was involved in management there during Prabhupada's presence. He recently (I think in the past few years) has taken shelter of Narayan Maharaj.

What is noteworthy from the quote you posted is that he seems clear in differentiating siddhanta from institution, but he does not seem to believe that siddhanta survived the editing of Prabhupada's books. Is that not another form vs. substance issue? His vision of preaching also seems to be tinged with some of what GM noted in his most recent blog:

He (Prabhupada) stressed that each preacher derives inspiration and insight—buddhi/intelligence— from Sri Krsna in consideration of time and circumstances, and that such intelligence is the essential dynamic of preaching.

Though GM is speaking about making adjustments when preaching, Bhagavat's suggestion of reading Prabhupada's unedited books suggests to me some of that entrenched in the past thinking which sooner or later manifests as preaching against other types of change, innovation, etc., i.e. form over substance.

p.s. Just another thought, that GM compares the Goswami's books to a "soft" form of institution. In the same spirit, Prabhupada's books could be seen as a soft institutionalization of siddhanta, which people also need to learn to differentiate siddhanta from; get the substance regardless of form (edited or not).

Nitai Joseph - July 17, 2007 2:17 pm

Does anyone know this devotee who wrote it?

I don't personally know him but I asked Guru Maharaja about him recently because he posts some good stuff on the sun. He's in Narayana Maharaja's group, he was involved with Gour Govinda Maharaja previously. He's posted some good things about Srila Sridhar Maharaja as well

Babhru Das - July 17, 2007 4:07 pm

Bhagavat is a disciple of Srila Prabhupada who worked closely with Gour Govinda Maharaja in Bhuvaneshvara in the early days there. He has since then taken shelter of Narayana Maharaja's siksa, and rather outspokenly so. Some time last year, I think, he left family life and is planning to take sannyasa from NM.

Madhavendra Puri Dasa - July 17, 2007 10:57 pm

Usually I couldnt find anything inspiring on sumpradaya.sun, but since one of the sanga appeared there, now every day I see something nice

Pragosh Prabhu wrote this:

My father wisely once told me "Don't marry the girl you can live with son. Marry the girl you feel you simply cannot live without!" In time this proved to be very good advice for me.

Well - if that advice holds true in the matter of choosing who we wed - how much more applicable it holds for whom we voluntarily choose to inspire us in our lifelong service to the Great Mahamantra of Lord Krsna's Holy Names and all His pure devotees who have taken this great mahamantra - as their life and soul?

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/07...torials1761.htm

What you think about the rest of this article?

Nitai Joseph - July 17, 2007 11:22 pm

Krsna Consciousness is entirely local and individual. It is described as "The Chanting of Hare Krsna". That is first and foremost, an individual action called japa, that can be enhanced by our engaging in this process in the company of others.

if our quest is to really take full advantage of the opportunity that Srila Prabhupada has given us for finishing - in one lifetime only - our real business here and going back to home - Back to Godhead.

Here we go......

NO ONE can say "You cannot or dare not accept that one"! - unless Srila Prabhupada himself forbid us.

I guess the logic here being that even though the article is essential saying to find pure devotees to associate with, even if they exist Prabhupada is still the Param Uttama Bhakta above all others. Pure is Pure man.

A small side story, In the last year I first started getting interested in Krishna Consciousness and I stumbled across the sun and was taken aback. I decided to write an article simply saying how that kind of site with that kind of content could affect a new 17 year old devotee. Dear Praghosh(the one from NY, not GBC, who I'm quite sure wrote this article) responded. In the guise of him helping me understand things(I cant beleive I was so naive) he essentially told me my confusion was one of guru tattve, then he proceeded to try and make me a rtvik, logic which of course I could not refute at the time. I was converted, thankfully only for a day or two, but point being i don't value his input much since he prays on innocent children. Sure he said a few nice things in this current article, but it's all coming from an unhealthily Prabhupada centered conception. The problem being, as Guru Maharaja said recently, "they have a maya-Prabhupada, like the maya-Sita Ravana stole" they don't have the real thing.

Jason - July 18, 2007 2:19 am

This stuff drives me nuts, it might be better for me just not to read it.

This is how I feel...such little time as it is.

Syamasundara - July 18, 2007 7:46 am

as Guru Maharaja said recently, "they have a maya-Prabhupada, like the maya-Sita Ravana stole" they don't have the real thing.

... that's intense.

Madhavendra Puri Dasa - July 18, 2007 9:09 am

I see that no apasiddhanta can escape your sharp sight

I quoted above sentence (about wife), because it sounded to me exatctly like the thing Swami often says, that the most important guru is the one who helps you most, and also it seem to me going with the line that faith of disciple is more important that institiutional consideration. It was funny to read something like this in Praghos's article, who is active GBC and conservative preacher in Iskcon

Any way thank you for showing wrongs in his article. Poco a poco in your company I am starting to be sensitive to this kind of false presentations as well.

Nitai Joseph - July 18, 2007 2:59 pm

Plenty of apasiddhanta gets past my ears, and plenty emenates from my mouth!

I think that the author of that article is Praghosh from NY (book distributor Prabhupada disciple) not the GBC one. The NY Praghosh posts quite often on the Sun

Brahma Dasa - July 25, 2007 10:27 pm

This Sanga I sent as reply to a recent article has just been posted on the SUN.

Omniscience of the Guru

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/07...torials1794.htm

Babhru Das - July 26, 2007 2:08 am

I saw that! Nice work.

Brahma Dasa - July 26, 2007 5:58 am

Dear Brahma dasa,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Kindly thank Tripurari prabhu for his contribution. I hope to find time in the

weeks ahead to offer some comments on his articles. Time is in short supply at

the moment, but I look forward to being able to carefully study more of the

Swami's writings. Please give him my respects.

Hoping this finds you well, also.

\your servant, Rocana dasa

Syamasundara - July 26, 2007 6:09 am

All right!

Babhru Das - July 26, 2007 7:45 am

Close to amazing! (But Tripurari "prabhu"? Sheesh!)

Syamasundara - July 26, 2007 2:33 pm

I know, I didn't want to react and look like I'm attached to the form, but I did irk me. At least it's better than when they just call him Tripurari; I don't understand, as if he took sannyasa from someone other than their own bona fide guru.

I tried to harmonize it and thought that, after all, Prabhu is used even for the Lord, and he calls him swami later on. Going by semantics, even bhakta tripurari would be a very glorious thing to say, but not going by the common use of these terms. I wonder if deep inside he chose not to use swami in order not to jinx it, since in the past there were so many this and that maharaja, that they held in high respect and then went down the deep end...

Brahma Dasa - July 26, 2007 3:54 pm

I wouldn't read too much into the 'prabhu' thing--after all, he did use Swami in the next sentence. Rocana probably felt that his note was rather respectfull, and it was considering the lack of respect he shows for Swamis and gurus in general. Anyway, I thought for him it was a nice note so I sent him this in reply.

Rocana,

Thanks for the nice note. I forwarded it to Swami and posted it on his disciples forum. You know if you ever get down this way Swami's offer to host you at Audarya is still open.

Hari bol, Brahma

Babhru Das - July 26, 2007 4:10 pm

Oh, I think it's a big step for him, especially considering that he declined to publish my review of Siksastakam earlier. I just find it odd that someone who considers himself a writer, and a vaishnava writer at that, still refers to someone who has lived in the sannyasa ashram for over thirty years as if he were in some other ashram. Still, I wouldn't confront him with it; I'd prefer instead to do anything that encourages him in a healthy direction. I've noticed that he's similarly careless with respect to other sannyasis as well. Sometimes it's most likely deliberate, as with Satsvarupa Maharaja, but I think it's often just an indication of the difficulty he has showing due respect to others.

Bhrigu - July 26, 2007 6:07 pm

I agree with Babru. It is not worth to make a fuzz out of this, but I must admit that in general, I find it extremely disrespectful when people refer to "Satsvarupa" or "Tripurari". After all, we are supposed to show respect to sannyasa as an institution, regardless of what we think of the particular person carrying the saffron cloth. Of course, we may have to show respect from a very great distance in some cases, but that doesn't hinder us from bowing down or writing "Maharaja". But Rocana and many others seem to have forgotten this.

Madhavendra Puri Dasa - July 28, 2007 8:11 am

Here are some good points. Author is mentioning Swami:

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/07...torials1805.htm

Syama Gopala Dasa - July 28, 2007 9:09 am

Not sure what he means by this:

"Who is better to associate with -- a corporate ISKCON deviator, or a pukka Prabhupadanuga Vaisnava from "outside"? "

Also, the go independent statement sounded odd to me.

Madan Gopal Das - July 29, 2007 3:10 am

Dandavats Brahma prabhu for your patient fortitude preaching on the sun. The latest is wonderful.

LINK

I can't figure out how people stubbornly hold onto any other idea with such thorough preaching. Great work.

Madan Gopal Das - August 1, 2007 4:27 am

The only problem with going to the sun is that some of the writers have a gift of writing these VERY long and VERY confusing attempts at making sense. After defending Prabhupada's all encompassing perfection, Bhagavat goes down the path of Jadurani in arguing against GM's presentation of Srila Prabhupada's priyanarma sakha sentiment. He takes it to the extreme though by stating that Prabhupad is beyond a nitya siddha, he is one of Radhika's expansions - a manjari, Prabhupada is not a jiva, etc. If I try really hard I think I might understand what he's trying to say, but then GM's supreme explanations along with a little logic pass over me and I just can't follow what Bhagavat is saying. I can only understand his motivation I guess, which would be to rule out any fault of Prabhupada by coming close to saying he's god. It was hard reading for me, it seemed so mixed up, but I am very biased. Judge for yourself. Does anyone have the patience to respond to this?

Sun article

p.s. If you find it taxing to read the whole thing, just search the page for Tripurari and you will find a few comments about GM's ideas.

Syamasundara - August 1, 2007 6:38 am

:Nail Biting:

Patience to respond, I don't think I could even read that if it's like you say. Bhagavat seemed different in those videotapes, but then again, there he was just remembering SP, no philosophy involved.

Madan Gopal Das - August 1, 2007 6:59 am

Particularly confusing parts:

That Srila Prabhupada admits that he is now engaged in the service of Srimati Radharani in particular indicates that he is in fact a Manjari and not a priya narma sakha and is therefore not even a nitya siddha jiva, Srila Prabhupada’s particular nitya siddha form is Swarup Shakti. So Srila Prabhupada’s position as Swarup Shakti is vastly different than a jiva especially within the realm of this material world. Although a Nitya siddha jiva is by virtue of the blessings of the Supreme Personality of Godhead able to perform amazing feats if necessary the fact remains that Swarup Shakti is the source of its energy which transforms the jivas in the last stage of devotional practice making them perfectly pure: “suddha-sattva-visesatma”

The Nitya Siddha jivas are already imbued with swarup shakti and so they transmit it to the nitya baddha jivas from their hearts which is the abode of such divine love. So one nitya siddha devotee is a direct expansion of Srimati Radharani, which is our Srila Prabhupada and the nitya siddha jiva is infused with Srimati Radharani’s swarup shakti, therefore there is a difference in tattva and a little difference in the extent of their powers because one is the source of the others power.

On guru's omnipotence (which Prabhupada states very clearly is not like god's all knowing)

This is difficult to understand how Sri Guru is acting like an ordinary human being and can know everything at the same time, but this is in a way another aspect of simultaneous oneness and difference Acintya Beda Abeda Tattva. Guru is one with the Supreme Lord and has aspects of His abilities and yet simultaneously he appears as an ordinary person so he can preach to the ordinary and bring them closer to the divine.

Syamasundara - August 1, 2007 7:47 am

Particularly confusing parts:

 

Totally lost me there prabhu...

 

On guru's omnipotence (which Prabhupada states very clearly is not like god's all knowing)

What a headache. Somehow that tone reminds me of those "authoritative" medicine treatises from the Middle Ages. Even supposing that SP could be an expansion of the svarupa sakti, I don't understand the pressure to shush any other theory, it feels fishy and smells like komala sraddha. They don't understand there is so much more beauty and hope for us if we don't think in terms of this elitarian svarupa sakti legacy, but could even fathom that one of us actually makes it to goloka by effort and mercy, and that gives so much value to that effort, and to that mercy!

The attitude of these devotees is somewhat connected to when they refuse to acknowledge that some devotees, like our GM, managed to go somewhere by their purity, sincerity, and the consequent mercy of their gurus, like: "Guess what, the process works! Rejoice everyone!"

NO, they (our previous acaryas) are them and we are us.

Swami - August 1, 2007 2:04 pm

What Madan Gopala has cited from Bhagvata's article is a leap in logic in the least. He concludes that becasue in one palce Prabhupada says that his father prayed that he could become a servant of Radha and that now he is rendering such service that Prabhupada is:

1. Something more than a nitya siddha, an expansion of Krsna's svarupa-sakti and not a jiva infused with svarupa-sakti. An example of such a soul is Yasoda, Subala, Lalita, etc.

2. A manjari and not a priyanarma sakha

Based on the evidence presented one could easily reach a very different conclusion. Priyanarma sakhas are also engaged in the service of Radha, and so too are sadhana siddhas. Never mind the fact that there is so much moe evidence to consider.

Who will respond?

Swami - August 1, 2007 2:22 pm

Bhagavata quoute me thus:

This is not to say that Srila Prabhupada’s purports are not evidence, but what he means in these instances must be balanced with what sastra says when addressing this point directly. This is not what Srila Prabhupada is doing in the purports cited.

First, Sripad Tripurari’s Swami’s says that Srila Prabhupada’s purports are evidence but then you state that His evidence is faulty because He has not balanced His statements with shastra and sadhu when addressing this particular point. I am just going to voice my opinion here that I think this is an inappropriate statement for you to make about your spiritual masters purports. I have some good respect for you, your work, and your position, so I will not say more but I would request that you please rethink this statement. Please try to find a more balanced answer to your own question’s about what is being expressed in these purports rather than finding them imbalanced. If one purport is not balanced with Shastra and sadhu then Srila Prabhupada’s position is undermined. Please consider that in your public evaluations of your spiritual master writings.

He has completely misunderstood what I wrote. I said that we must try to understand what Prabhupada writes in his purports in light of scriptural conclusions. It's not that his purports are out of balance with scripture, but rather that we may read and understand them out of context if we do not know scripture (or have good association), and thus we may come up with a erroeous conclusion. And there are many examples of this happening. The rivik movement is an example. They cite Prabhupada's purports and arrive a appasiddhanta.

My quote above is in reference to statements cited by somone else, sttements from Prabhupada's puports. These statements are not directly addressing the question "Is the guru omnisceint, and if so in what sense?". Yet someone has cited them in support of thier conviction that the guru is omniseient in all respects. Now when Prabhupada was directly asked this qustion he gave a very differnet answer, different from the conclusion reached by the person citing these particular purports. And Prabhupada's answer was in concert with what scripture says on the point: the liberated jiva is not omniceint (Rupa Goswami Brs on vibhava/qualities of Krsna).

Furthermore, if one wants to say that Prabhupad is not a jiva in the way that Bhagavata has speculated, one can do so. However, to then conclude that therefore Prabhupada is omnisceint in all respects is still a stretch, and furthermore such a speculation does not lead to the conclusion that the guru is omnisceint, for there are many sadhan-siddha gurus.

Brahma Dasa - August 1, 2007 5:17 pm

Any comments on this?

Bali-mardana: In other words, when you decide that someone is to be in charge of a particular temple does Krsna tell you that this person should be in charge.

Interviewer: Or do you by judging him say this person is qualified.

Prabhupada: Yes, because a devotee always consults Krsna and He gives order.

Interviewer: It's a more direct communication.

Prabhupada: Yes. And He gives order.

Rameswara: Because intelligence, our philosophy is that intelligence comes from Krsna. So if I have some...

Interviewer: And your philosophy is that your daily necessities come from Krsna as well.

Rameswara: Yes, try to understand. Suppose my intelligence sees that this person is qualified, that means Krsna has told me.

Prabhupada: No, not necessarily, Krsna will tell directly. A devotee always consults Krsna and Krsna tells him, "Do like this." Not figuratively.

Interviewer: Does that apply then to other kinds of decisions and other kinds of activities as well?

Prabhupada: Everything. Because a devotee does not do anything without consulting Krsna.

Bali-mardana: But that applies to a very greatly elevated soul that is not an ordinary person.

Prabhupada: That is, therefore the minor devotees, they consult the spiritual master. That is our process. Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadau.

Rameswara: I see, I was trying to explain the minor devotees.

Swami - August 1, 2007 6:32 pm

Any comments on this?

Bali-mardana: In other words, when you decide that someone is to be in charge of a particular temple does Krsna tell you that this person should be in charge.

Interviewer: Or do you by judging him say this person is qualified.

Prabhupada: Yes, because a devotee always consults Krsna and He gives order.

Interviewer: It's a more direct communication.

Prabhupada: Yes. And He gives order.

Rameswara: Because intelligence, our philosophy is that intelligence comes from Krsna. So if I have some...

Interviewer: And your philosophy is that your daily necessities come from Krsna as well.

Rameswara: Yes, try to understand. Suppose my intelligence sees that this person is qualified, that means Krsna has told me.

Prabhupada: No, not necessarily, Krsna will tell directly. A devotee always consults Krsna and Krsna tells him, "Do like this." Not figuratively.

Interviewer: Does that apply then to other kinds of decisions and other kinds of activities as well?

Prabhupada: Everything. Because a devotee does not do anything without consulting Krsna.

Bali-mardana: But that applies to a very greatly elevated soul that is not an ordinary person.

Prabhupada: That is, therefore the minor devotees, they consult the spiritual master. That is our process. Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadau.

Rameswara: I see, I was trying to explain the minor devotees.

Prabhupada is, as was consistant with his overall preaching, emhpasizing that Krsna is not figurative, but rather a real person. He personally told me that Krsna gives preachers the intelligence to say the right thing, citing the Gita—dadami buddhi yogam tam. Of course he can speak directly to his devotee as well, and thus Prabhupada says "not necessarily." In other words he wants to emphasize that Krsna is not merely a force that inspires one's intelligence or gives one intelligence (a universal intelligence), but that he can speak, etc. being a real person.

Babhru Das - August 2, 2007 6:19 am

What Madan Gopala has cited from Bhagvata's article is a leap in logic in the least. He concludes that becasue in one palce Prabhupada says that his father prayed that he could become a servant of Radha and that now he is rendering such service that Prabhupada is:

 

1. Something more than a nitya siddha, an expansion of Krsna's svarupa-sakti and not a jiva infused with svarupa-sakti. An example of such a soul is Yasoda, Subala, Lalita, etc.

 

2. A manjari and not a priyanarma sakha

 

Based on the evidence presented one could easily reach a very different conclusion. Priyanarma sakhas are also engaged in the service of Radha, and so too are sadhana siddhas. Never mind the fact that there is so much moe evidence to consider.

 

Who will respond?

I started to write about this earlier today, but I wasn't able to get very far because our home is in a state of chaos. And I'd probably be happy to take it on. It's been a source of repeated irritation for a couple of us here on the Big Island. (Even a couple of weeks ago, at our last Nectar of Devotion meeting, someone found an opportunity to bring it up. I worked hard to steer the conversation back to the chapters on sakhya rati, which was what we were discussing.) However, we are in the final throes of closing down our household here, and I may not have regular access to a computer for a week or so.

Madan Gopal Das - August 4, 2007 3:08 am

[bhagavat is suggesting] Prabhupada is:

 

1. Something more than a nitya siddha, an expansion of Krsna's svarupa-sakti and not a jiva infused with svarupa-sakti. An example of such a soul is Yasoda, Subala, Lalita, etc.

An interesting statement I just read in Prabhupada's Ramananda Samvada commentary: "The acarya or spiritual master is an empowered incarnation of the Personality of Godhead. He is not to be considered a plenary portion of Godhead, but at the same time the spiritual master is certainly very near and dear to Godhead."

2. A manjari and not a priyanarma sakha

 

Who will respond?

I thought to address these points in his article but it so quickly degenerated into a Prabhupada loyalists vs. Narayana Maharaj argument that I didn't think there was much point in entering the fray.

Madan Gopal Das - August 7, 2007 12:07 am

Guru Maharaj prompted me to do some service by writing a reply to Bhagavat for the sun. He reviewed it and plugged in some essentials I had missed. Most importantly, it fights some of Bhagavat's assertion that GM was minimizing Prabhupada, while also making the important point of how the gaudiya's understand siddhanta. Here it is: link

It was the top story until a couple of hours ago. We'll see if Bhagavat or others take it any further.

Babhru Das - August 7, 2007 3:44 pm

Nice Job! I like your article, Madan Gopal. But I hope Bhagavat leaves the issue alone for now. His piece was very carelessly written, and he doesn't represent his sangha well.

Citta Hari Dasa - August 7, 2007 3:54 pm

Well done, Madana. He will have a hard time dealing with that one, but hopefully it will help him to expand his perspective a bit.

Prema-bhakti - August 7, 2007 4:13 pm

I hadn't really followed this thread much but I just read your article Madana Gopala. Very well done and a great title.

Madan Gopal Das - August 7, 2007 4:40 pm

I hadn't really followed this thread much but I just read your article Madana Gopala. Very well done and a great title.

Title (and the really good stuff) is GM's! I was but an instrument...

Madan Gopal Das - August 7, 2007 4:49 pm

His piece was very carelessly written, and he doesn't represent his sangha well.

The big problem is that he is just representing what Narayan Maharaj has said regarding Prabhupada and omniscience, right? It just isn't philosophically sound, and that is a problem for NM's followers if they choose to go out on a limb, trying to make the philosophy fit the words of the guru instead of the other way around.

Babhru Das - August 7, 2007 5:59 pm

The big problem is that he is just representing what Narayan Maharaj has said regarding Prabhupada and omniscience, right? It just isn't philosophically sound, and that is a problem for NM's followers if they choose to go out on a limb, trying to make the philosophy fit the words of the guru instead of the other way around.

Yes, that's precisely the problem. I've been around the block with a few of them on this, and on their insistence that Srila Prabhupada can only be a manjari. I've made precisely the same points, but they can't hear. They act as though they know something, but they simply parrot what they've heard from NM, Madhava Maharaja, and Brajanath. It's not fun discussing this with NM's followers, but it's necessary. Alhough I like many of them quite well, especially many of his followers on the Big Island, who are dear friends, I'm not unhappy to be away from the fanaticism which often bubbles up.

Syamasundara - August 8, 2007 5:22 am

What I was thinking yesterday is, no matter what the reason why Narayana Maharaja says that, it's very easy to say SP was omniscient now that his physical form is not there, but NM happens to be a guru himself, and he can be easily tested. I can't believe I just said these words, sounds disgusting, but even without his disciples testing their guru, it may happen spontaneously that he may say: "Oh I didn't know that" or that something happens that makes it obvious that he wasn't aware of something, no?

Oh, I guess the word lila can explain everything (away)...

Madan Gopal Das - August 8, 2007 8:54 pm

Do we know this person?:

article by Tapomoya

Preaching sounds intriguingly familiar -

Syamasundara - August 9, 2007 6:54 am

I don't know who that is, most likely someone affiliated with SCSM. To my amazement, I found it endearing towards the end (the "Can you cite scripture?" part).

Somehow, I could glimpse deeper, past the surface of the debate, and I could appreciate what a solid process Srila Prabhupada has left us. Here we are, little us, Western devotees, keeping each other in check, for the sake of what is dearest to our hearts; like a pier in a harbor, lined with soft wood and tires, that bounce the ferry left and right until it gets straight into the pier, or like the embankments of a river, that won't allow it to change its course, but at most overflow, when the ecstasy ensues.

The Vaisnavas are the most beautiful thing in the universe. Even their tiffs are glorious.

Brahma Dasa - August 21, 2007 3:27 pm

Dear Brahma dasa,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Thanks for the latest submission. So far, everything that's been posted on Swami

Tripurari's behalf has been quite dated, and has come through you. We're willing

to accept material under those circumstances as long as it's very on-topic, and I

think it has met that test. I do, however, wish to secure Tripurari prabhu's

personal agreement that if Sun readers respond with rebuttals or questions, he

will personally reply with 'freshly written' answers, not simply re-posted

material, and not through the written replies of a proxy (your or someone else).

If we're going to re-post his dated material, I want to know that the author

himself will be personally responsive in dialogue that might emerge from the

readership. That includes, of course, responses from me.

I'll look forward to your affirmative reply, then will publish the Exile article.

Hoping this finds you both well and blissfully absorbed in the Holy Name.

your servant, Rocana dasa

Dear Rocana dasa,

Please excuse this late reply due to Rathayatra service.

Thanks for all your consideration, but Swami Tripurari won’t be able to comply with your new requirements in toto. It’s one thing for a person with little in the way of practical devotional engagement to participate in these never-ending internet arguments, but quite another for a devotee who is fully involved in seva and sadhana to do so. Swami is already overloaded with service responsibilities, including answering the dozens of Sanga questions that are always pending. He really has no time to dialogue with critics on your site.

However, Swami does reply to critics through Sanga, so your readers can always send him questions via the Sanga website. The Q and A is compiled and sent out to thousands of subscribers and may also be posted on other sites as well. If you like you can send him questions on topics of your choice and then comment on his replies. I believe this would comply with your requirement for personal answers.

In my opinion, Swami’s Sanga adds much to the quality of the SUN’s editorial content and also fulfills your commitment to featuring all sides of the issues. Swami would like to continue posting relevant Sangas on your site from time to time so he hopes this compromise is acceptable to you.

If it is, please postpone the Exile article and post the following Sanga in relation to Shyamsundar Prabhu’s present condition.

Transplants and Transfusions:

http://www.swami.org/pages/sanga/2006/2006_7.php

All the Best, Brahma

Audarya-lila Dasa - August 24, 2007 9:10 pm

Here is Rocana's response to Brahma's suggestion. It looks like Rocana isn't interested in posting Sanga's on his site - that's a shame for him and his readers.....

Swami Sanga

BY: ROCANA DASA

Aug 24, CANADA (SUN) — The Sun has recently received a number of submissions from Swami Tripurari. These have generally been re-posts of old material from his Sanga series, "Q&A with the Swami". Although the material was dated it was generally on-topic in response to current issues arising in the Sun, so we were happy to publish the material. None of these articles were submitted directly by the Swami, but rather through the agency of his assistant, Brahma dasa.

Having also received a number of comments from readers who took issue with certain of the Swami's statements, we wrote him a letter to say we're willing to continue re-posting his older Sanga material so long as it continues to be on point. However, we wished to have the Swami's agreement that if Sun readers (including myself) were to respond to his articles with rebuttals or questions, that he was willing to personally reply with 'fresh' answers, not simply with more aged re-posts. In other words, we wanted to be sure the author himself was willing to be personally responsive in dialogue that might emerge from our readership.

In response, we received the following letter from Brahma dasa:

Dear Rocana dasa,

Thanks for all your consideration, but Swami Tripurari won't be able to comply with your new requirements in toto. It's one thing for a person with little in the way of practical devotional engagement to participate in these never-ending internet arguments, but quite another for a devotee who is fully involved in seva and sadhana to do so. Swami is already overloaded with service responsibilities, including answering the dozens of Sanga questions that are always pending. He really has no time to dialogue with critics on your site.

However, Swami does reply to critics through Sanga, so your readers can always send him questions via the Sanga website. Q and A is compiled and sent out to thousands of subscribers and may also be posted on other sites as well. If you like you can send him questions on topics of your choice and then comment on his replies. I believe this would comply with your requirement for personal answers.

In my opinion, Swami's Sanga adds much to the quality of the SUN's editorial content and fulfills your commitment to featuring all sides of the issues. Swami would like to continue posting relevant Sangas on your site from time to time so he hopes this compromise is acceptable to you.

All the Best, Brahma

Our reply to Brahma dasa was as follows:

Dear Brahma dasa,

Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

You wrote: "It's one thing for a person with little in the way of practical devotional engagement to participate in these never-ending internet arguments, but quite another for a devotee who is fully involved in seva and sadhana to do so. Swami is already overloaded with service responsibilities, including answering the dozens of Sanga questions that are always pending. He really has no time to dialogue with critics on your site."

I have to say, I find your reply to be quite arrogant and condescending. By what means do you determine in advance that anyone who would try to engage the Swami has "little in the way of practical devotional engagement"?

As for the "never-ending internet arguments", the tradition of debate in our Vaisnava culture makes it our duty to discuss intelligently, sincerely and thread bare. If you don't want to participate in that, that's fine. But don't expect to float your messages and opinions through the Sun without having responsibility for rebutting your challengers.

As for how busy the Swami is with his seva and sadhana, we're all busy. We all have our personal service to Krsna, and we're all attempting to keep up our sadhana. If the mood you convey in your email is your own, and not the Swami's, then I think you do him a disservice to speak on his behalf in this way. If the mood comes directly from Tripurari, please share my response with him.

If Swami Tripurari wants to join the ranks of Sun contributors, he'll have to carve out time in his busy schedule to actually participate in the process, just like the rest of us have to do. We are not interested in using the Sun as a one-way broadcast means for Swami Sanga, nor are we interested in funneling our site traffic to you, for your benefit, with no reciprocation of participation at this end. That seems a very one-sided relationship.

Your servant,

Rocana dasa

Nitaisundara Das - August 24, 2007 9:17 pm

Laughable! Especially the part "were all attempting to keep up our sadhana" this is exactly why GM should have his writings posted, he has taste and therefore his sadhana keeps itself up. I love how rocana signs "your servant". Totally ridiculous. I don't whats more hopeless Sampradaya Sun or the upcoming ISKCON mediation

Audarya-lila Dasa - August 24, 2007 11:43 pm

Rocana's comments are complete nonsense. The reality is that if anyone had any rebuttal or comment Rocana would be posting it rather than what he has. It is also a reality that if there were any meaningful content or thoughtful objection to anything be said in a Sanga that either one of Guru Mahraja's disciples or associates would address it.

Rocana readily admits that the Sangas were pertinent to current discussions so I really don't see what his issue is. He or anyone else can post Srila Prabhupada's words or any other acharyas words - the expectation of Rocana to have Guru Mahraja personally involved on his site and in answering objections raised by posters there is really foolish. To ask Brahma to address the issues or one of Guru Maharaja's disciples - now that would be reasonale, and it may well be that an issue or objection that could be raised has already been answered via a previous Sanga.

Whatever - my opinion is that Rocana is really full of himself and way off base when it comes to understanding our tradition. Many of the posters on his site are even worse than he is. It's probably best to simply bow out at this point.

I'm with you Nitaisundara - both the upcoming 'mediation' and the Sun seem like lost causes - but since Guru Maharaja is going to the mediation I am sure something good will come of it.

Babhru Das - August 25, 2007 12:55 am

Laughable! Especially the part "were all attempting to keep up our sadhana" this is exactly why GM should have his writings posted, he has taste and therefore his sadhana keeps itself up.

Bingo! An old friend was telling me about this community (Alachua), "We're all just trying to stay devotees!" My response was that it seems sad that, after 30, 15, 40 years, so many living so close together are still just "trying." After 30 or 40 years, we should be advancing our devotion, not just trying to keep chanting, not just struggling to follow basic rules of conduct. I mua! (Forward!)

I love how rocana signs "your servant". Totally ridiculous.

I don't whats more hopeless Sampradaya Sun or the upcoming ISKCON mediation

Well, maybe Swami will be able to make something useful of the mediation. I don't know who's coming from ISKCON's side or what their agenda is. We'll see. My interest in Rocana's Sun waned long ago. It'll be better when we have the energy and time for a genuine alternative site.

Swami - August 25, 2007 1:46 am

Rocan mentions a long history of debate, but such debate, to the extent that it exists within our tradition, is grounded in scripture, as has been any Gaudiya debate with other traditions of Vedanta. Unfortunately we do not find much of this kind of debate on his site. The content is more that of argumentation, something that is not conducive to spiritual culture.

Narada-bhakti-sutra 74,75 states,

vado navalambyah

"One should not induldge in argumentative debate."

bahulyavakasatvad aniyatatvac ca

"Such argumentation leads to excessive entanglements and is never decisive."

The site is a culture of Vaisnava aparadha and arrogance all in the name of Prabhupada-bhakti.

Madan Gopal Das - August 25, 2007 5:20 am

I don't whats more hopeless Sampradaya Sun or the upcoming ISKCON mediation

While I can completely relate to the feeling of losing hope, I do think we have to be careful to guard against cynicism. It just doesn't benefit us in anyway. I know... when given repeated evidence of misunderstanding, ignorance and plain old aparadha, it is easy to give up on people. Most of the time it just makes me want to live my life without such people! :Rolling Eyes: But a little voice in the back of my mind says that we need to be a little generous, not in allowing the twisting of siddhanta, or in sacrificing our principles, but in the possibility that people can be sincere. We would want that for ourselves right? A little generosity to be approached without having been all figured out. If GM's followers do not show such generosity, it is almost guaranteed that we will get none ourselves. Re. the mediation, let's just see how the people involved work it. I have some problems with the way it is being done, but hey, at least there is an effort. Our faith is on the side of GM and we can't go wrong there. I'm just suggesting that we be open and positive while still living our faith. GM has said before that we should "set the bar higher" in our practice and preaching of bhakti so that groups like ISKCON will be brought up by our association. I think that can apply here.

Now, as for Sampradaya Sun... Nah, I won't even bother!!! :D

Madhavendra Puri Dasa - August 25, 2007 7:12 am

I don't whats more hopeless Sampradaya Sun or the upcoming ISKCON mediation

Well, maybe Swami will be able to make something useful of the mediation. I don't know who's coming from ISKCON's side or what their agenda is. We'll see. My interest in Rocana's Sun waned long ago. It'll be better when we have the energy and time for a genuine alternative site.

What's the story with this upcoming Iskcon mediation?

Gaurangi-priya Devi - August 25, 2007 5:10 pm

I don't whats more hopeless Sampradaya Sun or the upcoming ISKCON mediation

If that is the attitude and intention, then that is what will come out of the mediation. If there is no real desire for mediation, which is : intervention between conflicting parties to promote reconciliation, settlement, or compromise, then yes it is hopeless.

Madan Gopal Das - August 25, 2007 5:33 pm

What's the story with this upcoming Iskcon mediation?

For those who are wondering what we are talking about here:

The last time in NC, Brahmatirtha from ISKCON Resolve contacted GM to ask if he would like to have a dialogue. ISKCON resolve is a mediation group which attempts to facilitate conflict resolution between iskcon devotees, or whoever wants to resolve some conflict they are having with devotees. The way it turned out, this week GM and friends will meet with Hrdayananda M. and friends and with a mediator will discuss issues of history, current grievances, issues of social conflict between the two parties, etc. with the idea to improve relations. Om Tat Sat.

Prema-bhakti - August 25, 2007 5:38 pm

If that is the attitude and intention, then that is what will come out of the mediation. If there is no real desire for mediation, which is : intervention between conflicting parties to promote reconciliation, settlement, or compromise, then yes it is hopeless.

Nitai may be hopeless but some may be too hopeful. I have yet to see a sucessful mediation with an outside group that promoted all of things you mention. ISKCON certainly doesn't seem to be coming to the table with this open attitude and if/when they did ever make an agreement they later renege on it.

If they can at least gain from the mediation a deeper respect for Guru Maharaja and his mission and stop hassling him and his disciples and then communicate that to greater ISKCON that would a great boon for them. It seems like a long shot.

I hope Yogesvara is still one of the mediators. I have a lot of respect for him and he was always fair minded and sincere when I worked with him in New York.

Nitaisundara Das - August 25, 2007 5:39 pm

I knew I was being a little emotional and cynical when i posted this, and I don't think it's the proper attitude. It was more just the compounded factors of what happened last week at RY combined with the fact that we had just talked about it for an hour at lunch yesterday and the fact that 1 of 3 GBC men won't be there, the one who is favorable to our cause. I can't say I have high expectations but I don't think I'm predominated with cynicism either. What you said Madan did strike a cord with me and what I've been thinking about lately. GM is being so merciful to me and he dosen't even give up on this sort of mediation thing, so what then should be my position. Overall I did make that comment in frustration and it's not my last word on the issue, but it's not soo far from my last word. I guess the guy with the yapping hand was a little much too!

Madhavendra Puri Dasa - August 25, 2007 6:48 pm

For those who are wondering what we are talking about here:

The last time in NC, Brahmatirtha from ISKCON Resolve contacted GM to ask if he would like to have a dialogue. ISKCON resolve is a mediation group which attempts to facilitate conflict resolution between iskcon devotees, or whoever wants to resolve some conflict they are having with devotees. The way it turned out, this week GM and friends will meet with Hrdayananda M. and friends and with a mediator will discuss issues of history, current grievances, issues of social conflict between the two parties, etc. with the idea to improve relations. Om Tat Sat.

That would be so cool to get a mp3 from this meeting

Swami - August 25, 2007 8:53 pm

I do not expect much to come out of the mediation, but anything positive would be welcome. Perhaps they will appoint someone in Iskcon with whom specific greviences can be registered and then dealt with. For example, when one of their Swami's vilified my Gita commentary online on an official Iskcon site, had a grevience minister been in place we could have registered a complaint. Similarly when Madhuha Of Prabhupada Village complained about my preaching there, his complaint could have gone to the greivence minister, who would have then contacted us. In both of these incidences we would have prevailed, as one of their Swami's was blaslphemous and Madhuha, as it turns out, is a heritic by Iskcon standards, while my preaching was orthodox.

Ultimately if we behave well, as we should, we will prevail in any such dealings, and that will go on record. If any of our members misbehave, Iskcon will have the opportunity to see how I take such misbehavior and misrepresentation seriously and how correct my students. This may help to inspire Iskcon leadership to take more responsibility for the misbehavior of its members. In this way over time there is hope for improvement. With a grevience system in place I have a venue to bring up issues, a voice, albeit indirect, within Iskcon.

For 22 years Iskcon has either vilified or tried to ignore me. I am hopeful that after this meeting vilification will not be acceptable, indeed I do not think it is oficialy acceptable even now, but it goes on nonetheless. As for ignoring me, it seems from this meeting that that is not working any more either. It's been a long 2 decades plus, and it is somewhat gratifiying to know that the position I have taken has proven to be a spiritually acceptable one to the extent that Iskcon has seen fit to call for mediation. I am still standing, indeed, jumping, while Iskcon is perhaps wobbling. I only hope I can be of some menaingful service to them.

There will be two mediators, Brahma-tirtha, who reads Sanga and just ordered my Gita commentary, and Yogesvara, a refined gentleman. The GBC will be represented by Hridyananda Maharaja and Ravindra Svarupa. Vaiseseka will also be there representing Iskcon in a non-GBC capacity. Hridyananda Maharaja is neutral, Ravindra Svarupa is unfavorable, and Vaiseseka is favorable.

Babhru Das - August 25, 2007 11:32 pm

I do not expect much to come out of the mediation, but anything positive would be welcome. Perhaps they will appoint someone in Iskcon with whom specific greviences can be registered and then dealt with. For example, when one of their Swami's vilified my Gita commentary online on an official Iskcon site, had a grevience minister been in place we could have registered a complaint. Similarly when Madhuha Of Prabhupada Village complained about my preaching there, his complaint could have gone to the greivence minister, who would have then contacted us. In both of these incidences we would have prevailed, as one of their Swami's was blaslphemous and Madhuha, as it turns out, is a heritic by Iskcon standards, while my preaching was orthodox.

I think we've already prevailed in the first instance, having demonstrated that their sannyasi's article is blasphemous. I'm unaware of anyone who was not at least favorably affected by our response to his criticism. And ISKCON seems to turn a blind eye to Madhuha's heretical position, I suppose, because his Festival of India project is so central to many ISKCON programs, including the North America rathayatras.

Ultimately if we behave well, as we should, we will prevail in any such dealings, and that will go on record. If any of our members misbehave, Iskcon will have the opportunity to see how I take such misbehavior and misrepresentation seriously and how correct my students. This may help to inspire Iskcon leadership to take more responsibility for the misbehavior of its members. In this way over time there is hope for improvement. With a grevience system in place I have a venue to bring up issues, a voice, albeit indirect, within Iskcon.

For 22 years Iskcon has either vilified or tried to ignore me. I am hopeful that after this meeting vilification will not be acceptable, indeed I do not think it is oficialy acceptable even now, but it goes on nonetheless. As for ignoring me, it seems from this meeting that that is not working any more either. It's been a long 2 decades plus, and it is somewhat gratifiying to know that the position I have taken has proven to be a spiritually acceptable one to the extent that Iskcon has seen fit to call for mediation. I am still standing, indeed, jumping, while Iskcon is perhaps wobbling.

Jumping! Heck--leaping, dancing! No, they can't ignore you. Let them see the contrast between Audarya del Sur and their mess in Costa Rica, and there'll be absolutely ignoring our Swami and his crew.

There will be two mediators, Brahma-tirtha, who reads Sanga and just ordered my Gita commentary, and Yogesvara, a refined gentleman. The GBC will be represented by Hridyananda Maharaja and Ravindra Svarupa. Vaiseseka will also be there representing Iskcon in a non-GBC capacity. Hridyananda Maharaja is neutral, Ravindra Svarupa is unfavorable, and Vaiseseka is favorable.

Who's the favorable GBC member who won't attend?

Nitaisundara Das - August 26, 2007 3:49 am

Krsna-ksetra Prabhu was originally part of the line-up

Syamasundara - August 26, 2007 6:03 am

Krsna-ksetra the German brahmacari? Interesting.

And how can Hrdayananda Maharaja be neutral? He's taken some distance from Iskcon, or he's not taking a stance about GM?

Bhrigu - August 26, 2007 8:16 am

Too bad Krishna Kshetra Prabhu can't take part (he's American, though, Syamu! ), but he is in Hong Kong teaching right now so it would probably not have been that practical.

Bijaya Kumara Das - August 26, 2007 8:37 am

This looks like a good line up and it is nice to see this group of Prabhupada disciples conduct an istagosti for Guru Maharaja, he is a great leader and the majority of attendants are favorable. It is good that they have approached him. We are all getting older and it is time that they stop fighting with devotees. Guru Maharaja will prevail because he bases every thing, all of his dealings on paramapara and scripture.

Babhru Das - August 26, 2007 10:01 am

Krsna-ksetra Prabhu was originally part of the line-up

Oh--it's really a shame he can't be there. He's very favorable; we had some nice correspondence after the article on Swami's Gita. And he seems to have little patience left for this kind of foolishness in ISKCON.

And if the result is a widely broadcast injunction to stop hassling Swami and those who associate with him, it will make things easier for my wife.

Madan Gopal Das - August 27, 2007 1:19 am

I wanted to clarify with Brahma what he meant when he said in the letter to Rocana: "It's one thing for a person with little in the way of practical devotional engagement to participate in these never-ending internet arguments, but quite another for a devotee who is fully involved in seva and sadhana to do so."

He obviously took that as a personal slight and now Nrsimhananda has also cast you as arrogant for this statement. Were you actually suggesting that Rocana is such a person "with little in the way of practical devotional engagement?" I don't suggest that such an observation is off base, but when I originally read it I thought your were speaking in humility about yourself, or suggesting that many of the contributors to his site are such people (again, a suitable label). Just wondering... Rocana tried the shoe on for himself, and guess what - it fits!!! The rest of your correspondence has been cordial though, so I didn't really think your were trying to push his buttons. Oh well...

Nanda-tanuja Dasa - August 27, 2007 3:43 am

If any of our members misbehave, Iskcon will have the opportunity to see how I take such misbehavior and misrepresentation seriously and how correct my students.

Do we have any precedent of our people misbehaving? Any specific instructions for us to follow while in contact with members of ISKCON in the light of this? What will be the mediation date?

Bijaya Kumara Das - August 28, 2007 6:54 am

Do we have any precedent of our people misbehaving? Any specific instructions for us to follow while in contact with members of ISKCON in the light of this? What will be the mediation date?

The only instructions I have recieved from Guru Maharaja is to act like a devotee and base everything you say in conversation on sadhu, sanga and shastra and do not bring up controversy and association is needed when your godbrothers are not around. He seems to think that anyone involved with Krsna has good intentions unless they have an adgenda. Absense of malice is the way and our connecting Guru is His Divine Grace A C Bhaktivedanta and He is usually present on the alter of any ISKCON function. Act accordingly.

What will be the mediation date? Why will there be any need for mediation when we function in the above capacity. I do not or have never had cause for such in 35 years of devotee interaction even after 11 years in Guru Devas service. And any of Guru Maharajas' disciples should not either. Just avoid the blasmephers.

Vivek - August 28, 2007 2:32 pm

I think that garuda prabhu could have been good as well though missing from line-up.

I just hope that at least they don't interrupt GM's preaching, nothing else is required.

Babhru Das - August 28, 2007 4:46 pm

Oh, don't worry about that, Vivek! I doubt they'll affect his preaching in the least. He's going full bore, pedal to the metal. Fasten your seat belt.