Tattva-viveka

Evidence of Prabhupada's sakhya rati?

Madan Gopal Das - July 31, 2007 1:37 am

Gaurangi found this tidbit in a lecture:

And fifth symptom is:

sri-radhika-madhavayor apara-

madhurya-lila-guna-rupa-namnam

prati-ksanasvadana-lolupasya...

What is that? Anyway. Vande guroh sri-caranaravindam. And the spiritual master is always thinking of the pastimes of Krsna. Sri-radhika-madhavayor apara: with Srimati Radharani, His consort, and the gopis. That is always his thinking. Sometimes he's thinking about His pastimes with the cowherds boys. That means that he's engaged always thinking of Krsna, engaged in some kind of pastime. Sri-radhika-madhavayor apara-madhurya-lila-guna-rupa-namnam pratiksana asvadana lolupasya. Pratiksana, twenty-four hours, he's thinking. That is Krsna consciousness. One must be engaged twenty-four hours in thinking of Krsna. - Lecture in Stockholm

Interesting that Prabhupada would mention cowherd boys in a verse about madhurya...

Gandiva Dasi - August 28, 2007 2:56 pm

Today is Balarama Purnima here in Hong Kong and a friend sent me this quote from a lecture of Varsana Swami;

His Holiness Varsana Swami, now gives us a very nice description of the relationship between guru, anartha-nvrtti, and the demons killed by Lord Balarama in His childhood lila:

Lord Nityananda [balarama] is the original guru. When Krsna and Balarama wander through the forest, Krsna carries the flute, indicating the sweet play of rasa which attracts the hearts of all living entities. Balarama carries the plow, meaning He's a cultivator. What does He do? He plows down those weeds in the hearts of the living entities, which are obstructing or strangling their devotional creeper. You know what happens when Balarama enters the Talavana forest? Those donkeys represent the load-bearing mentality of the jiva soul, carrying our heavy burden of sinful reactions, our heavy burden of karma and jnana, of mundane knowledge and mundane ambition, and the ignorance of forgetfulness. What a heavy burden! It keeps us weighed down so we can't be enthusiastic about service. So when Balarama enters that forest of Talavana, He sends all those donkeys flying far away. This is His function. This is the function of the guru: to purify our hearts of all those offenses and anarthas which obstruct the flow of our love for Krsna.

The presence of Lord Nityananda-Balarama can be felt to this day in the presence of one's guru. Srila Prabhupada very much conveyed the mood of Lord Nityananda. If you don't believe it just think about it. Any morning walk or sweet darshan, as soon as someone mentioned scientists he'd give that look. He was in the mood of Balarama: 'I kick their heads with my boots.' Prabhupada never wore boots! It's the mood of Balarama! Pralambasura is trying to take away Balarama, and Lord Balarama knows 'trying to take away guru', and smashes him on the head with His fist. Prabhupada was in that same exact mood. Guru-tattva. Guru carries the message of Lord Nityananda, the message of bhakti, and his sakti can be felt as the inspiration to please and serve the guru, which is our only means of serving and pleasing Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Only then can service to Radha and Krsna become reality. Therefore, Srila Prabhupada, Locana dasa Thakura, and all the great acaryas echo that theme: without the mercy of Lord Nityananda-Balarama there can be no service to Sri Sri Radha-Krsna.

Swami - August 29, 2007 2:59 pm

'I kick their heads with my boots.'

This is the language of Vrindavana dasa Thakura in Caitanya Bhagavata, who is in sakhya rasa. Vira (heroic/fighting) rasa and sakhya rasa are complimentary. This is a particular typle of vira rasa--yuddha vira--complimenting sakhya rasa, the confident (visrambha) and fighting spirit of a cowherd. It was very characteristic of Srila Prabhupada.

Meanwhile here in LA we have triumphed over the evil of Vaisnava aparadha and convinced all of the Iskcon representatives we met with that a positive campaign equal to the previous campaign of vilification of Srila Sridhara Maharaja, one that corrects the miunderstanding and continued aparadha against SM and myself, needs to be conducted. They reached the conclusion that the best way to do that is to convince Iskcon that I am bonofide and that Iskcon can benefit from my association.

Of course, as they readily admitted, they have there work cut out for them to convince Iskcon's fanatics, but at least they are thoroughly convinced and apologetic. My strategy would be to kick on the fanatics heads with boots, but I have to leave it to them to deal with at this point.

Their strategy has to take into consideration all of the subtle politics of Iskcon in order that they prevail over time. In order to help them accomplish this, factual statements such as mine above cannot be circulated anywhere lest they get into the wrong hands and make thier efforts that much more difficult. Consider my words my spiritual sentiments expressed relative to the preaching realm and keep them to yourselves or I will kick on your heads with boots as well.

Prema-bhakti - August 29, 2007 3:27 pm

Gaurangi found this tidbit in a lecture:

Interesting that Prabhupada would mention cowherd boys in a verse about madhurya...

GM mentioned in his Vyasa-puja lecture this year on this verse that madhurya-lila can refer to the sweet lila of Vraja in a broader sense not just conjugal pastimes. So one can meditate on this verse refering to the spiritual master in either sentiment of a priya narma sakha or a gopi-manjari. Besides Subal and all the priya narma sakhas are involved in Krsna's romantic life to some degree or other. :Party:

Audarya-lila Dasa - August 29, 2007 5:02 pm

That is really good news regarding the meeting with Iskcon representatives. I think another positive step would be to promote both Sridhara Maharaja's books and your books in Iskcon stores. They should also actively promote the book by B.B. Vishnu Maharaja 'Our affectionate Guardians'. Additionally they should have prominent Iskcon leaders write papers glorifying Sridhara Maharaja, correcting the incorrect history that has been promoted directly and indirectly by Iskcon leadership and they should ask for forgiveness from Sridhara Maharaja and all his sisyas for their part in institutionalizing offensiveness toward him.

Short of the above I don't see how they will remedy the situation.

Prema-bhakti - August 29, 2007 6:01 pm

'I kick their heads with my boots.'

This is the language of Vrindavana dasa Thakura in Caitanya Bhagavata, who is in sakhya rasa. Vira (heroic/fighting) rasa and sakhya rasa are complimentary. This is a particular typle of vira rasa--yuddha vira--complimenting sakhya rasa, the confident (visrambha) and fighting spirit of a cowherd. It was very characteristic of Srila Prabhupada.

This is interesting to know about VDT. His descriptions and language in CB are such a contrast at times with KDK's poetry and and descriptions in the CC.

Vivek - August 29, 2007 7:37 pm

Was the meeting with Hridyananda Maharaj etc held yesterday?

It is great that even ravindra svarupa prabhu accepted GM as generally he is very institutionalized in his approach.

Was ravindra savarupa prabhu also there in the meeting?

Margaret Dale - August 29, 2007 8:15 pm

Meanwhile here in LA we have triumphed over the evil of Vaisnava aparadha and convinced all of the Iskcon representatives we met with that a positive campaign equal to the previous campaign of vilification of Srila Sridhara Maharaja, one that corrects the misunderstanding and continued aparadha against SM and myself, needs to be conducted. They reached the conclusion that the best way to do that is to convince Iskcon that I am bonofide and that Iskcon can benefit from my association.

This is wonderful! They are finally starting to see the light!

Nanda-tanuja Dasa - August 29, 2007 8:30 pm

They reached the conclusion that the best way to do that is to convince Iskcon that I am bonofide and that Iskcon can benefit from my association.

Do they have power to do it?

Madan Gopal Das - August 29, 2007 10:08 pm

GM mentioned in his Vyasa-puja lecture this year on this verse that madhurya-lila can refer to the sweet lila of Vraja in a broader sense not just conjugal pastimes.

I realize that, but I just thought it a sweet little hint that the verse is talking about radha-madhava, and their madhurya lila, yet Prabhupada points out that the spiritual master may be also thinking of pastimes with the sakhas.

GM has also pointed out the same as Varsana swami when speaking about many other instances where Prabhupada expresses this vira rasa. It is so sweet. Prabhupada sometimes said things like "we will drop bombs on them" (people who don't accept) or other things which with this context become sweet ornaments of sentiment, rather than things that are difficult to explain away.

Thanks for the report Guru Maharaj! Though a kick on the head from your boots would be a wonderful event, I'm sure those who aim to please you will take your advice seriously and be careful to represent you properly. Glory to progress!

Prema-bhakti - August 29, 2007 10:43 pm

I realize that, but I just thought it a sweet little hint that the verse is talking about radha-madhava, and their madhurya lila, yet Prabhupada points out that the spiritual master may be also thinking of pastimes with the sakhas.

Yes, it is sweet.

Madan Gopal Das - August 30, 2007 1:35 am

For Baladeva purnima I was listening to a great class GM gave here and I got so excited about it I started to transcribe it. Then with some of these posts today I was transcribing more and found that this is the class GM also talks about Prabhupad. So, in glorification of Guru Maharaj's wonderful preaching, Prabhupada's vira rasa, and krsna's older brother, here is a nectar bit of that class. Enjoy!!

çrédämä näma gopälo
räma-keçavayoù sakhä

subala-stokakåñëädyä

gopäù premëedam abruvan

So, these fellows, they said "Rama, Krsna, pals!" they said. "My dear Krsna, Rama", premnedam abruvan... Out of love, out of prema they spoke to them. This is a very difficult thing to understand, this prema. As I said in other meetings between us; love by its nature wants to share itself. But it quickly finds out that it can't be shared with everyone. Everyone won't appreciate, so then it seeks to conceal itself. It doesn't want to hide, it wants to express itself all the time, but in order to do so it has to conceal itself and express itself in secret language. So here, this whole section of the killing of Dhenukasura, the liberating of Talvan, the forest of Tal fruits, how does it appear? It appears like "these guys are hungry!" They say "Krsna feed us, would you? We want these tal fruits, we're hungry. We want to taste them." It appears like they have self interest. Gopi lila appears more so like they have self interest. They're only interested in themselves. They don't care what their parents will think, what their kids will think, what their husbands will think, what the gods will think, what the vedas say, no. Just meet krsna. Go! Very selfish... It looks on the outside like this. So, this appears the same way. It looks like they want to go to the forest, to talvan, but they're saying it as Sukadeva uses the word - prema, out of love. It looks like one thing, but actually its not. They have no interest in tasting the tal fruits whatsoever. In fact, if they have any other interest, apparent interest as we'll see, its in liberating the fruits for others. We'll see in the end, they don't even eat the fruits. What they want is to see krsna's lila unfold. And particularly they are going to start with this character Rama. Rama! Rama! maha baho they say here.

räma räma mahä-bäho

kåñëa duñöa-nibarhaëa

It's very nice this language, they say "Rama, you've got big arms. You're the older brother, the big guy. Rama Rama maha baho. HA!" They're laughing as they say this. Rama Rama maha baho. "You've got big arms, so you think, so people say... But what have we seen??" krsna dusta nibarhana... "All we've seen is that krsna has killed demons!" That's what they're saying here. "O rama, oh mighty armed one, oh krsna, destroyer of miscreants." You see? They are poking at Rama's ego here. "You are supposed to be the eldest, the older brother, mother yasoda is always saying 'protect this boy krsna', now you were just initiated as a cowherd like us, and krsna was just initiated, so mother yasoda was saying 'oh rama, you stay in front of him, sridama on his side, subala on the other side, other boys behind, protect him always in the forest.' So you're supposed to be the lead protector... We've been doing this for some time now, and what have we seen? All we've seen is that krsna has killed demons." (laughs) "You have done nothing, and you're the big guy? Says who??" This is how they are talking to him. They are saying this facetiously. They want to see rama's glory come out. They want to bring it out and show it to everybody. They're not interested in eating fruits. They want to see rama's ego as a cowherd, as the elder brother, manifest. So this is the way to get to him. They are egging him on so to speak. "What a joke, big arms... krsna, rama-anuja, he's killed so many demons and you are just standing by trembling, pale, afraid..." They are in sakhya rasa, and this rasa is very much augmented by hasya rasa and vira rasa. Hasya means joking, sporting, as here. Vira rasa means heroic activities. These are gauna rasa, secondary rasas. Mukhya rasa means santa, dasya, sakhya, vatsalya and madhurya. Gauna rasas are the other seven, twelve all together. So they have a dominant sentiment for krsna, sakha - very friends, equality. But sometimes the secondary rasa will come, it has the power to dominate for some time, at which time the sakhya rasa recedes to the background and it becomes prominent. And that domination of that gauna rasa, that secondary rasa reaches the point of ecstatic emotional experience, that it's called rasa. That's what distinguishes it from sancari bhava's. It can reach the point of rasa, become ingredients for the height of emotional experience of love that we call rasa. These gauna rasas cannot replace the primary rasa, but they can for some time become prominent and the primary rasa is enhanced by that. So this joking, this is typical. And now they want to see the vira rasa. Their are different kinds of vira rasa. Dayavira, danavira, yudhavira. Here they want yudhavira. Yudha means fighting. Dana-vira means you are a hero by giving wealth. Like a big king is a hero by giving donation. Dayavira, hero by giving mercy to other people. Yudhavira, these cowherds, this is what they do. They like to wrestle, sport, play, fighting. So they want to see him exercise his big arms. Wrestling with him, defeating him sometimes, to see his prowess. This is yudhavira.

One time (laughing) somebody wrote to me that he had read a book by Giriraj Maharaj, a godbrother of mine, which was one of those books which some disciples had written recounting their experiences with Prabhupada. So he was writing in the book that one time they were walking on the beach in Juhu, Mumbai, and Prabhupada said "if they do not become krsna conscious then we will drop the bombs on them. We will take over the military and drop the bombs on them." And so this fellow read that and thought "oh my god, what kind of teaching is this? They want to drop bombs on people and this is supposed to be a spiritual teacher??" So, this fellow wrote to me, he was a devotee actually, that "how am I supposed to understand this? There are all of these wars going on these days and so forth..." And so I gave different explanations from different angles of vision and ultimately I said this is how you understand this, this is yudhavira. You are talking to him and he goes off like this, this is his bhava. (Very animated) "We'll fight them yes. We'll fight them for krsna, yes! Let's go, all of us. Then we'll drop the bombs on them!" It doesn't mean he really wants to drop bombs on people, but you have to understand, such people are motivated by this bhava which sometimes manifest outside, and sometimes is subdued, and they can act like a normal person, have a normal conversation. It looks like he's having a normal conversation, but this bhava is coming. vaiñëavera kriyä mudrä vijïeha nä bujhaya... Therefore it is said, it is very difficult to understand the motivation of the vaisnava, why he or she is saying something, doing something. It all has a very deep connection to the center. It's a world very different from the external world. Then they comment on the external world and you try to make sense of it without understanding the bhava, you just get confused. He's just a cowherd! For a moment he's going into yudhavira, tasting that, remembering krsna's pastimes. "Yes, we will drop bombs on them." In this way I was able to satisfy that fellow.

Swami - August 30, 2007 3:49 am

Do they have power to do it?

No. They have no power, but they will try to get the appropriate government body that has such power to look into it. It's a long drawn out beurocratic process. Ugh!

Glad to be a feee man in the free world. Jaya Rama! Jaya Hari!

Syamasundara - August 30, 2007 3:54 am

That is really good news regarding the meeting with Iskcon representatives. I think another positive step would be to promote both Sridhara Maharaja's books and your books in Iskcon stores. They should also actively promote the book by B.B. Vishnu Maharaja 'Our affectionate Guardians'. Additionally they should have prominent Iskcon leaders write papers glorifying Sridhara Maharaja, correcting the incorrect history that has been promoted directly and indirectly by Iskcon leadership and they should ask for forgiveness from Sridhara Maharaja and all his sisyas for their part in institutionalizing offensiveness toward him.

Short of the above I don't see how they will remedy the situation.

Yes, it feels like wishful thinking, but it actually makes a lot of sense; that's exactly what Iskcon should do if they want to keep their adepts from going elsewhere, instead of becoming control freaks, and as we recently saw, suicidal aparadhis. They should show and broadcast their change of heart, or desire to change it, on such a large scale that those who are absolutely disenfranchised but keep staying in Iskcon because of some sentiment for the mission, and those who are on the fence and looking for any better place to be will be captivated by the idea of such a colossal institution begging forgiveness after 30 years, just like we were captivated by Dhanurdhara maharaja's sincerity.

Nanda-tanuja Dasa - August 30, 2007 3:28 pm

No. They have no power, but they will try to get the appropriate government body that has such power to look into it.

In that case I think we will not see Sridhara Maharaja's books and your books in Iskcon stores for a long while (if ever). I’m sure mediators, although maybe favorable to our cause, will face fierce resistance from beaurocrats and would have to chose sides, eventually they will try to sweep the whole thing under the rug once again. I’m sure no recordings or transcripts of your meeting would be available to members of Iskcon.

Vrindavandas - August 30, 2007 11:54 pm

Patience is a virtue... You may be pleasantly surprised as to what is coming around the corner. There are a lot of interesting things going on in ISKCON these days, and for the most part certain actions and committees are in the process of bringing about a lot of positive change. What I can tell you without giving out too many details, is that there is a book committee that is currently reviewing books to be put on an "ISKCON approved list". It is important to understand that in any large organization be it religious or corporate, there is a certain amount of bureaucracy and red tape that is involved. It doesn't mean that things are not getting done, it just takes a little time.

Swami - August 31, 2007 12:58 am

And back to the main topic:

"One day, while Prabhupada was sitting in his room receiving his massage, he began talking and laughing. As he sat on the floor with one leg tucked under his body and one leg outstretched before him, he told the two or three devotees present how Krsna, carrying the lunch His mother had packed for Him, would go to the forest with His cowherd boyfriends, who were also carrying lunches from home. Krsna and His friends would all sit together sharing their lunch, and Krsna always had the best laddus and kachauris. Prabhupada's eyes flashed, and he rubbed his hands together, smiling. "I simply want to go to Krsnaloka, so I can have some of Krsna's laddu and kachauris. I do not have any great diversion from this. I simply want to go there so that I can enjoy eating laddus and kachauris with Krsna and the cowherd boys." Opening his eyes widely, he glanced at Devananda, who was massaging him, and at the others in the room. "Oh," he said to them, "if you will give me laddus and kachauris, then I will bless you."

Prabhupada-lilamrta

Here Prabhupada expresses the mood of the vidusakha (jester) and priyanarma Madhumangala. "Batu" as his is sometimes called is a brahmana friend of Krsna. He is a big eater, and religion means to feed brahmanas. He often bargins with Krsna for more sweets by offering him his blessings in jest. In the last line above Prabhupada is imitating Madhumangala negotiating with Krsna.

Madhumangala is the king of Brahmanas--dvijaraja. Narada is his expansion in vaidhi bhakti. This is the theology behind the calssical "Farcical Narada" often depicted in religious Indian cinnema. In Gaura-lila he comes as Srivas Thakura. Srivasa is Narada for the most part, but when discussing the glory of Vrajaloka with Mahaprabhu and Svarupa Damodara he reacted thus in the mood of a vraja sakha:

suni’ premavese natya kare srinivasa

kaksa-tali bajaya, kare atta-atta hasa

"Srivasa Thakura then began to dance in ecstatic love. He vibrated sounds by slapping his armpits with the palms of his hands, and he laughed very loudly."

Swami - August 31, 2007 1:09 am

From my Godsister, Malati-devi Vyasa-puja offering one year--writing to Prabhupada:

"I recall an intimate moment when you increased the mystique of your being here among us foolish “boys and girls.” Nonchalantly recalling how as a child you “always got your way,” you proceeded to tell a little vignette about your desire for a cowboy pistol. Finally, after much insistence, your father complied and bought you a toy gun. But you were not to be satisfied until you had two guns, one for each hand.

“Oh,” said Harsarani, “you were a cowboy!” With complete gravity, you replied, “Yes.” At that second, no one was thinking of you and the Wild West. We just knew you were speaking about being with Krsna and the cows in Vrndavana. We were only spiritual toddlers at best (it was ’67 or ’68), but you mercifully gave us a glimpse into your heart. I felt very small being there with you at that moment.

After that incident, the same devotee penned a short poem about you. In it she described you as playing leapfrog in a pasture with Krsna and the cows and other gopas. It seemed funny and frivolous to us, yet you gravely remarked, “She has become advanced,” and ordered that it be printed in Back to Godhead magazine."

Swami - August 31, 2007 1:14 am

Another anecdote, this one from my Godbrother Subala dasa:

“When Prabhupada came to Vrndavana for a visit, I got Dr. Kapoor to come with me to ask about it (discussing one's siddha deha). Prabhupada said, “This is not done in our line. One must realize his relationship for himself. One cannot just jump ahead. When one is ripe and ready, it will be revealed from within . . . I am a cowherd boy.”

Swami - August 31, 2007 1:27 am

"One day while sitting with Srila Prabhupada, Tamala Krsna began to describe the pastimes of Krsna as depicted in the painting hanging to the right of Srila Prabhupada's prasadam table. The painting showed Krsna and His cowherd friends eating lunch. Srila Prabhupada looked at the painting and then, closing his eyes and thinking of the lila, said, 'This is the highest perfection of life.'"

Prabhupada-lilamrta

Syamasundara - August 31, 2007 1:30 am

Gopa madhura gavo madhura

Sastir madhura srstir madhura

Dalitam madhuram phalitam madhuram

Madhuradi-pater akhilam madhuram …8

His gopas are sweet, His cows are sweet His staff is sweet, His creation is sweet His trampling is sweet, His fruitfulness is sweet—Everything is sweet about the Emperor of sweetness!

Syamasundara - August 31, 2007 1:37 am

Just to be the devil's advocate, and to make our case stronger and more our own by knowing it, are there any similar anecdotes about SP and srngara rasa, or he only talks about it from a theoretical point of view?

Swami - August 31, 2007 1:49 am

Regarding Sri Visvanatha's obvious reference to srngara rasa in his Gurvastakam 6 (nikunjayuno rati keli siddyair) Prabhupada said,

“The prayers offered by Visvanatha Cakravarti to his spiritual master have a special significance. His spiritual master was one of the assistant gopis, so the prayer was offered like that. On the whole, the spiritual master is an agent of Krsna. But either he is assistant to the gopis or assistant to the cowherds boys.”

As for Syamasundara's question, the answer is "no."

Syamasundara - August 31, 2007 2:04 am

Then I don't understand why other devotees get so uptight at the idea that SP could be in anything "less" than srngara rasa. They idealize their own guru to the point of overriding his own direct statements about the matter?

Madan Gopal Das - August 31, 2007 2:26 am

Thanks Guru Maharaj for posting all of this evidence. It's nice to have it all in one place. I'm sure you have more!!! Haven't you also mentioned something about the significance of Prabhupada's gotra in relation to sakhya rasa?

To Syamasundara: It is tied in with the wrong-headed understanding that srngara being the fullest expression of rasa means "higher" in some mundane calculation and therefore superior. I think it also has to do with a lack of understanding the role of the priyanarma sakhas. The attachment to identifying Prabhupad with srngara rasa is also undoubtedly influenced by Narayan Maharaj's effect on iskcon, and Prabhupada's disciples who are his sisyas.

Swami - August 31, 2007 2:29 am

Then I don't understand why other devotees get so uptight at the idea that SP could be in anything "less" than srngara rasa. They idealize their own guru to the point of overriding his own direct statements about the matter?

The problem has come mostly from one well known preacher's insistence that Prabhupada is in madhurya rasa. His followers have faith in him to the point of denial. Either that or they are simply not aware of all the abive evidence. Such preachers' notions are based on the fact that our sampradaya has emphasized madhurya rasa and is most suited for this ideal, with the vast majority of acaryas being in this sentiment and thus writing songs, prayers, etc in this mood.

Here is a nice prayer by Thaura Bhaktivinoda for those cultivating saranagati in sakya rasa.

atma-samarpane gela abhiman

nahi korobun nija rakha-bidahan

tuwa dhana jani’ tuhun rakhobi, nath’

palya godhana jnana kori’ tuwa sath

caraobi madhaba! jamuna-tire

bamsi bajaoto dakobi dhire

agha-baka marato rakha-bidhan

korobi sada tuhun gokula-kan!

rakha korobi tuhun niscoy jani

pana korobun hama jamuna-pani

kaliya-dokha korobi binasa

sodhobi nadi-jala, baraobi asa

piyato dabanala raknobi mo’y

‘gopala’, ‘gobinda’ nama taba hoy

sura-pati-durmati-nasa bicari

rakhobi barsane, giri bara-dhari!

catur-anana korabo jab cori

rakha koro- i mujhe, gokula-hari!

bhakativinoda — tuwa gokula-dhan

rakhobi kesava! korato jatan

"Surrendering to You lifted from me the burden of false pride. No longer will I try to secure my own well-being.

O Lord, I am confident of Your protection, for, like one of Your cows or calves, I am Your treasured property.

O Madhava, I see You leading Your herds to pasture on the banks of the Yamuna. You call to them by gently playing Your flute.

By slaying giant demons such as Agha and Baka You will always provide full protection, O Gokula Kana!

Fearless and confident of Your protection, I will drink the water of the Yamuna.

The Kaliya serpent’s venom poisoned the Yamuna’s waters, yet that poison will not act. You will purify the Yamuna and by such heroic deeds enhance our faith.

You who are called Govinda and Gopala will surely protect me by swallowing the forest fire.

When Indra, king of the gods, sends torrents of rain, You will counteract his malice and protect us by lifting the mighty Govardhana Hill!

When the four-headed Brahma steals Your cowherd boyfriends and calves, then, too, You will surely protect me, O Gokula Hari!

Bhakativinoda is now the property of Gokula, Your holy abode, O Kesava, kindly protect him with care."

A good number of devotees in more recent years have understood that the emphasis of our lineage is madhurya rasa, as mentioned above. Thus they concluded that Prabhupada is in this sentiment but have not studied his own writing.

Citta Hari Dasa - August 31, 2007 3:35 pm

Wow, what a prayer!

Guru Maharaja, where does Bhaktivinoda Thakura write this? What's the context?

Gandiva Dasi - August 31, 2007 4:37 pm

That is a beautiful prayer.

I found this prayer of Srila Prabhupada's diary on the folio from the Jaladutta 1965

tomara milane bhai abar se sukha pai

gocharane ghuri dina bhor

koto bane chutachuti, bane khai lutaputi

sei din kabe habe mor

O dear friend, in Your company I will experience great joy once again. In the early morning I will wander about the cowherd pastures and fields. Running and frolicking in the many forests of Vraja, I will roll on the ground in spiritual ecstasy. Oh when will that day be mine?

Babhru Das - August 31, 2007 4:42 pm

It's from Saranagati. It's the third song under "Accepting the Lord's Protection." The first two songs generally glorify Krishna's ability to protect us. The fourth looks a lot like a cowherd boy's expression of confidence, and the fourth expresses BVT's abandonment of any sense of identity other than that of a servant of one of Krishna's sakhis.

Swami - August 31, 2007 5:17 pm

Wow, what a prayer!

Guru Maharaja, where does Bhaktivinoda Thakura write this? What's the context?

Saranagati: raksiksasiti visvaso--firm fath that Krsna will protect me.

Vivek - August 31, 2007 5:30 pm

This is one of Gour govinda maharajs' disciple bhagavat prabhu's article. He seems to indicate that his GM toed the line that prabhupada was in madhurya rasa.

Obviously many of gour govinda maharaj's disciples are also pretty fanatic.

PRABHUPADA'S SVARUPA

There was another incident which revealed to me how exalted Gour

Govinda Maharaja really was. Once we were having a discussion in the hut with

two or three other godbrothers and myself. One of the devotees

mentioned that once someone had asked Prabhupada, "Are you a cowherd boy?"

Prabhupada answered, "I don't know who I am but I like cowherd boys."

Another time someone asked Prabhupada if he was the incarnation of

Vyasadeva, because he wrote all those books. Again Prabhupada replied, "I do

not know, but it sounds nice." Because we were not very advanced,

Prabhupada did not revel this to us. In this way these two or three

godbrothers and I were discussing this subject matter about who Prabhupada was in

his original svarupa. At that time Gour Govinda Maharaj had gone

across the hut to the other end to get a drink of water. When he finished

drinking his water-he always used to drink water in a sitting position-he

stood up turned, looked at us and said, "Prabhupada is not a cowherd

boy! Prabhupada is a gopi!" At that time, I was looking right in his

eyes. The way he said it and the way he looked, made me think, "He really

knows."

Swami - August 31, 2007 6:13 pm

This is one of Gour govinda maharajs' disciple bhagavat prabhu's article. He seems to indicate that his GM toed the line that prabhupada was in madhurya rasa.
Obviously many of gour govinda maharaj's disciples are also pretty fanatic.

PRABHUPADA'S SVARUPA

There was another incident which revealed to me how exalted Gour

Govinda Maharaja really was. Once we were having a discussion in the hut with

two or three other godbrothers and myself. One of the devotees

mentioned that once someone had asked Prabhupada, "Are you a cowherd boy?"

Prabhupada answered, "I don't know who I am but I like cowherd boys."

Another time someone asked Prabhupada if he was the incarnation of

Vyasadeva, because he wrote all those books. Again Prabhupada replied, "I do

not know, but it sounds nice." Because we were not very advanced,

Prabhupada did not revel this to us. In this way these two or three

godbrothers and I were discussing this subject matter about who Prabhupada was in

his original svarupa. At that time Gour Govinda Maharaj had gone

across the hut to the other end to get a drink of water. When he finished

drinking his water-he always used to drink water in a sitting position-he

stood up turned, looked at us and said, "Prabhupada is not a cowherd

boy! Prabhupada is a gopi!" At that time, I was looking right in his

eyes. The way he said it and the way he looked, made me think, "He really

knows."

Bhagavata is a good story teller, but you cannot rely on his facts. He is an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada who was very inspired by Gaura Govinda Maharaja. Otherwise it would not surprise me if Gaura Govinda Maharaja had this conviction. However, he was not privy to the many things Prabhupada personally said about himself, nor the opinion of Pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja. He is simply going with the dominant Gaudiya conception of manjari bhava that he was schooled in by his siksa guru from Orissa (outside of Iskcon). Interestingly (according to Bhagavata's own statements above) Prabhupada himself seems to have identified with sakhya rasa as something he is attracted to ("I like cowherd boys"), rather than replying to the contrary. Regarding the refernece to Vyasa, this question is not concerned with rasa. None the less Vrndavana dasa is considered to be the Vyasa of Gaura-illa and he is in sakhya rasa.

Babhru Das - August 31, 2007 7:11 pm

This story has been enhanced by those following the preacher with whom Bhagavat now associates. The way I heard it from another Godbrother is that Srila Prabhupada spent a few days alone with Gour Govinda Maharaja in his hut in Bhuvanesvara, and Srila Prabhupada is supposed to have revealed many intimate things to Maharaja during this couple of days. However, I never heard anything like this from Maharaja (not that I had much association with him), and those disciples who were close with him have never suggested any such thing. A good number of intimate disciples, contrary to those who have gone to this other mission, insist that private meetings with the other preacher also never happened. Rashomon, anyone?

Swami - August 31, 2007 8:48 pm

Om Visnupada Sastravit Sri Srimad Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Deva Goswami Maharaja speaks about his dear Godbrother Om Visnupada Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada thus.

"I think he has given the hint--his own "autobiography." When he was going to America, on the journey he expressed his feeling to play with Krishna in sakhya-rasa.

'kata bane chutachuti bane khai lutaputi sei din kabe habe mor'

"Running and frolicking in the many forests of Vraja I will roll on the ground in spiritual ecstacy. O when will that day be mine."

"This was his 'Prayer to the Lotus Feet of Krishna'

When he was passing through the Atlantic he gave vent to feelings that may be the salient points in his Vraja-lila. It struck me like that--Vrindavan sakhya-rasa.

"When he departed from this consciousness of worldly preaching propaganda, then he is there. It is clearly expressed in these sayings there in the Atlantic. He discovered the unmanifest, aprakat pastimes in Vrindavan, and in Vrindavan he established Krishna-Balaram and Gaur-Nitai. That is indicative of sakhya-rasa. From this we can conclude that he is in sakhya-rasa and he has entered into those pastimes. This is my understanding about his present position. He has expressed himself, his eternal position, the acme of his aspiration. In Vrindavan he has established Balarama and Krishna and Nitai Gaura, and he is saying like that, Nitai Gaura are Krishna and Balarama. It's almost clear that he comes from that group. And now he's again there. Hare Krishna.

"He expressed his own position in eternal lila in his poem. I conjecture like that. Hare Krishna! In his diary in Bengali he wrote, "Today I cooked some bati-caccari. It was quite delicious. So I ate something. Today I expressed my inner feelings to my friend and wrote a poem about that."

"And that friend came to his aid. He was so earnest in his prayer to Krishna that he might be able discharge the duty that had been given to him by his Guru Maharaja that Krishna came down to help him--his friend helped him in this propaganda work. So saktyavesa-avatara. I take him; I cannot but take him to be so.

"Addressing Krishna he wrote, "You are my eternal friend. Forgetting You, I have come to this world and I have been suffering the kicking of Maya, the goddess of misconception. If You come to help me in this campaigan, then after finishing this I can again join You. When I shall be united with You again I shall wander along with You the whole day in keeping the cows in the forest. Running this side and that side in the jungle, in the forest. And then, lutaputi, to fall on the ground in different shows of play. I aspire after that day. I have got this good chance to serve my Gurudeva. For that reason my heartfelt appeal to You is that You please come to help me. I am Your eternal servitor, therefore so much aspiration I have got for You. You, no other, are my only resort."

"So after performing this service he aspires after a life in the cow-keeping lila of Krsna, and he is appreciating that sort of friendly service of Krsna very much from the core of his heart, his aspiration after finishing his worly preachig campaign.

"I take it that Nityananda Prabhu has given some special recognition to the section of the Suvarna varnik community from which Swami Maharaja has come. He has special grace for that particular section and the preaching about Gauranga, and this is mentioned in the scriptures. The Suvarna varnik are the most favorite section of Nityananda Prabhu. It is mentioned in the sastra, Caitanya Bhagavata. I thought that Nityananda Prabhu is also in charge of preaching about Mahaprabhu's glory. So I took it that Nityananda Prabhu must have awakened some special dedication in him in his last days which helped him to inundate with such a inconceivable magnitude, the whole of the world.

"But that does not mean that he was nothing before such delegated power came in him. That delegation may only come in a proper place, just as in other saktyavesa avatars, the sakti accepts a particular place and that is not an ordinary thing. One must be a proper recepticle to receive that. Saktyavesa. Does it mean that when the delegation comes it will enter some bad thing? This supposition is mischievous, and those that will make this mischief out of my statement regarding the delegation of Nityananda entering him will diminish faith. They will prepare the field for becoming atheists. This is suicidal, to propagate in that line.

"And the sakhya rasa is also not to be neglected. Dasa Gossami who is thought to hold the highest position of madhurya rasa, our prayojana acarya himself says, sakhayam me namasta nityam. What does it mean? Fools rush in where angels fear to tread. Is it an intellectual field that we can pass resolutions, pass remarks in any way we like in our fashion? No. Dasa Goswami who is posted in the highest position of the prayojana tattva, the acarya of prayojana in madhurya rasa of Radha dasyam, he says that "I will try to show my reverance to sakhya." It is not a play thing. This is very rarely to be found. We must go to that plane and then we should deal with these things. Sakhya rasa is a very small thing? What is this? From a distance I want to show my respect to sakhya rasa. That should be tendency of a real devotee, and not to disregard all these things."

Vrindaranya Dasi - September 1, 2007 1:32 am

Govinda Dasi, from "Prabhupada Stories":

Gaurasundara and I remained in Montreal for the duration of time that Swamiji was in India; that was about six months. During that time we drew many pictures for early Back to Godhead magazines and daily we worked in our small art studio while hearing Caitanya Caritamrta and Srimad Bhagavatam. During that time I began working on a drawing of Krsna and Balarama returning home with their cows, millions of cows. It became a kind of meditation. Daily I worked on this drawing and although we had little information of how Vrindavana looked it seemed to manifest from within the heart. Though we did many other pictures, this picture was the most dear to me. Even when I close my eyes I would still see an ocean of cowswith Krsna and Balarama prancing before them and in my view, over to the right, that cowherd boy was clearly meant to be Srila Prabhupada. After, all Swamiji had requested me to paint his portrait in San Francisco, and it was one of the first pictures I painted for him. Now I felt I was painting his spiritual portrait in Goloka. It was an innocent offering. I sent a copy of the drawing to Swamiji in Vrindavana, saying, "This cowherd boy is my portrait of you".

Thank you, Srila Prabhupada for giving me that glimpse of Goloka. It spurred me on in my desire to serve you; even now when I see this picture, my original drawing has been colored in and hangs behind the Deities of Krsna Balarama, I think of you as I see you walking besides Krsna and Balarama, herding the cows home in the evening and I think that this is no accident that this very picture that I had offered to you so many years before is your portrait walking beside your beloved Krsna Balarama and you are there nearby. Thank you, Srila Prabhupada.

Jyotir Mayi, 1970 Vyasa-puja:

Srila Prabhupada, here on Ilavati Varsa, you are the master at whose feet all masters are assembled, but in Goloka Vrndavana who are you? What is your name, cowherd boy, playing in the field with Krsna and thousands of cows and calves? As you walk, the grass at once under the touch of your lotus feet regains its consciousness and its love and raises high its fragile limbs. You do not pay attention to the wretched covering of matter, but you see just souls learning how to love, and so you just said, at the sight of my bewildered and speculative mind, “She is like a flower dancing on the wind.”

excerpt from Vyasa-puja offering of Jambavati Dasi, 1970:

Golden in Krsna's radiant smile,

You are dancing as a cowherd boy.

So kindly help us sing Your glories far and wide,

O saint among the highest.

Swami - September 1, 2007 1:33 am

From a conversation in Bombay. Prabhupad is asked about svarupa siddhi.

Prabhupada: Svarupa-siddhi means when he is actually liberated, he understands what is his relationship with Krsna. That is svarpa-siddhi. Sakhya.

Swami - September 1, 2007 1:39 am

Govinda Dasi, from "Prabhupada Stories":

Gaurasundara and I remained in Montreal for the duration of time that Swamiji was in India; that was about six months. During that time we drew many pictures for early Back to Godhead magazines and daily we worked in our small art studio while hearing Caitanya Caritamrta and Srimad Bhagavatam. During that time I began working on a drawing of Krsna and Balarama returning home with their cows, millions of cows. It became a kind of meditation. Daily I worked on this drawing and although we had little information of how Vrindavana looked it seemed to manifest from within the heart. Though we did many other pictures, this picture was the most dear to me. Even when I close my eyes I would still see an ocean of cowswith Krsna and Balarama prancing before them and in my view, over to the right, that cowherd boy was clearly meant to be Srila Prabhupada. After, all Swamiji had requested me to paint his portrait in San Francisco, and it was one of the first pictures I painted for him. Now I felt I was painting his spiritual portrait in Goloka. It was an innocent offering. I sent a copy of the drawing to Swamiji in Vrindavana, saying, "This cowherd boy is my portrait of you".

Thank you, Srila Prabhupada for giving me that glimpse of Goloka. It spurred me on in my desire to serve you; even now when I see this picture, my original drawing has been colored in and hangs behind the Deities of Krsna Balarama, I think of you as I see you walking besides Krsna and Balarama, herding the cows home in the evening and I think that this is no accident that this very picture that I had offered to you so many years before is your portrait walking beside your beloved Krsna Balarama and you are there nearby. Thank you, Srila Prabhupada.

Jyotir Mayi, 1970 Vyasa-puja:

Srila Prabhupada, here on Ilavati Varsa, you are the master at whose feet all masters are assembled, but in Goloka Vrndavana who are you? What is your name, cowherd boy, playing in the field with Krsna and thousands of cows and calves? As you walk, the grass at once under the touch of your lotus feet regains its consciousness and its love and raises high its fragile limbs. You do not pay attention to the wretched covering of matter, but you see just souls learning how to love, and so you just said, at the sight of my bewildered and speculative mind, “She is like a flower dancing on the wind.”

excerpt from Vyasa-puja offering of Jambavati Dasi, 1970:

Golden in Krsna's radiant smile,

You are dancing as a cowherd boy.

So kindly help us sing Your glories far and wide,

O saint among the highest.

I think the point here is that Prabhupada accepted these offerings and offered no correction as other Gaudiya acaryas would be quick to do in consideration of their conjugal sentiments. It is also significant that such notions concerning Prabhupada arose naturally among his diciples. Any other assertion in unnatural and forced.

Syamasundara - September 1, 2007 6:08 am

Govinda Dasi, from "Prabhupada Stories":
Even when I close my eyes I would still see an ocean of cows with Krsna and Balarama prancing before them

That is one of my favorite images, too. I remember one night I went to bed, listening to a kirtan in my earphones, and somehow I thought of that part of the day, when Krsna and Balarama come back to the village, cows walking tight around every gopa, Krsna is playing the flute, but so are other gopalas, all covered in very fine dust, and all so charming and beautified by it, meanwhile the birds are announcing the end of the day, cow bells dangling, more dust being risen, some gopis gaze at Krsna out of the corner of their eyes while tending to their chores... Yasoda waiting in front of the house...

I felt bad for inventing, really, all that, but it was so sweet I couldn't stop, I felt like the most fortunate being in the universe for thinking of Krsna and Balarama at go-dhuli.

Another time I was left alone in Point Arena and I had to walk Dharma and Bhumi, who were really little more than calves. We went all the way down, where the neighbors were raising llamas and what not; the buddies were so afraid in those new surroundings, every time they'd hear an unknown sound from the farm down the trail they would walk so tight against me on both sides. That was such a strong sensation, it reminded me again of that moment, and it filled me with a protecting attitude towards them*, I was a protector of cows. I started to think what it must be for Krsna to walk in the midst of a sea of cows, who depend entirely on him, and teach us saranagati.

Sorry if I got carried away; I realize the thread is about SP and an important issue of truth, or at least one that is very dear to us, but I couldn't keep it inside. So many nice images are being evoked in this thread, and I would like it to never end. Thanks Gandiva for reviving it. Somehow thinking of SP in sakhya-rasa makes me feel happy and proud. I don't understand how the "opposition" can be so violent against the idea, and without considering all the facts we have gathered so far.

(*Too bad it was pollen season and sometimes I would scare them myself with my sudden sneezes. Man, what an afternoon it was.)

Bhrigu - September 1, 2007 7:15 am

One argument for Srila Prabhupada's being in madhurya-rati that I recently read is that among the few songs he gave his disciples to sing regularly the Tulasi-song (with "koro nija-dasi"), the Gurvastaka and Radha-Madhava all glorify madhurya-rati as the highest. What would be a good reply to this?

Swami - September 1, 2007 11:27 am

One argument for Srila Prabhupada's being in madhurya-rati that I recently read is that among the few songs he gave his disciples to sing regularly the Tulasi-song (with "koro nija-dasi"), the Gurvastaka and Radha-Madhava all glorify madhurya-rati as the highest. What would be a good reply to this?

These are standard songs.

When explaining the 5th and 6th verses of Gurvastakam (the significant ones in terms of expressing the astakam's sentiment) on two separate occasions (as mentoned above) he said the verses referred to Visvanatha's particular sentiment but that the guru is either in madhurya or sakhya. This is a very significant reply. Cowherds also worship Radha Madhava and assist them their union, expecially priyanarma-sakhas. This sakhya sentiment is mixed with madhurya and is sometimes referred to as "sakhi-bhava." which gives one a way to think of "koro nija-dasi."

In this way these songs can be explained and brought in harmony with all of the evidence above. However, there is not much hope of harmonizing the above wit the notion tht he is in madhurya rasa, especially when he personally says his ideal is that of a cowherd.

Swami - September 1, 2007 2:06 pm

Thanks Guru Maharaj for posting all of this evidence. It's nice to have it all in one place. I'm sure you have more!!! Haven't you also mentioned something about the significance of Prabhupada's gotra in relation to sakhya rasa?

Yes, Prabhupada's family tree comes down through the suvarna-vanik comunity that was showered with Nityanada Prabhu's mercy. Uddharana Datta Thakura is the partron saint of this community and he is one of the 12 principle cowherd friends (dvadasa gopals) of Rama and Krsna. In Krsna lia he is Subahu gopa. Prabhupada used to make pilgrimages to the Sripat of Uddharana Datta in Naihati during his family life, and when he returned to India from abroad the representatives from Naihiti sent committe to recieve him. He visited the Sripat with some of his disciples and in later yeras tried to secure the seva puja there.

Gandiva Dasi - September 2, 2007 3:47 am

From Satsvarupa Maharaj's Prabhupada Nectar Volume 4

(New Vrindavan)

One day during Srla Prabhupäda’s visit, Kirtanänanda Swami introduced Rädhänätha to Srila Prabhupäda and told him he had been making Srila Prabhupäda’s sandesa.

“Very nice,” Srila Prabhupäda replied. Rädhänätha then showed Prabhupäda an eight-by-ten picture of Rädhä-Vrndävananätha. Srila Prabhupäda looked at Them silently and meditatively for about a minute. Then he began glorifying Lord Krñsa. He said Krñsa in Vrndävana is the sweetest. When Krñsa stays in Mathurä, Dvärakä, that is city beauty, but when He is in the village of Vrndävana, His beauty is the sweetest. While saying this, Srila Prabhupäda continued to glance at the picture of Rädhä-Vrndävananätha. He then spoke of how Krñsa goes out to the pasturing ground with His buffalo horn and flute to herd the cows and play with His friends. Krñsa and His friends would get so absorbed in their play that mother Yasodä would have to go out and get Krñsa to bring Him home.

Swami - September 3, 2007 5:58 pm

That is a beautiful prayer.
I found this prayer of Srila Prabhupada's diary on the folio from the Jaladutta 1965

tomara milane bhai abar se sukha pai

gocharane ghuri dina bhor

koto bane chutachuti, bane khai lutaputi

sei din kabe habe mor

O dear friend, in Your company I will experience great joy once again. In the early morning I will wander about the cowherd pastures and fields. Running and frolicking in the many forests of Vraja, I will roll on the ground in spiritual ecstasy. Oh when will that day be mine?

Yes, this is the best reference. I have written a short commentary on this prayer, but I can't find it right now. If anyone has it please post it here.

Swami - September 3, 2007 8:47 pm

Here is the link to the sanga in which the poem is commented upon: http://www.swami.org/pages/sanga/2000/2000_27.php

Gandiva Dasi - September 5, 2007 10:39 am

Thank you Maharaj for the link to your comments on Srila Prabhupada's poem. It is a wonderful glorification of Srila Prabhupada , and insight into his deep prayer and devotion.I t was a nice meditation today on Srila Prabhupada's appearance day. Thank you for the final prayer/benediction.

Swami - September 21, 2007 2:01 pm

This poem may not seem to fit that well here, but I had to post it somewhere.

"O Nimai you are the full moon of love! Please come back, please come back to Nadiya, which has been plunged into the darkness of night.

O my Nimai, cries of distress fill the air. Your mother's neighborhood is completely empty, and she does not even light the lamp in her house. Your wife, Visnupriya rolls in the dust in your absence, her flower decorations broken.

Once, so long ago, you used to play games of Vraja on the streets of Navadwipa. Now who will ask your mother for butter and tell her that it is time to go herd the cows? "Its time to go herd the cows. Dress me mother, it's time to go out to pasture. Dress me up as a cowherd."

Now your mother Saci is calling, "Nimai, O Nimai!" And the tearful answer comers back, "He is not here, he is not here." Come back, O Navadwipa moon! Come back. The bees are crying in your absence; the birds have stopped singing and the flowers have stopped blooming. Come back, O Navadwipa moon! Come back, come back."

Bijaya Kumara Das - September 21, 2007 7:41 pm

This poem may not seem to fit that well here, but I had to post it somewhere.

"O Nimai you are the full moon of love! Please come back, please come back to Nadiya, which has been plunged into the darkness of night.

O my Nimai, cries of distress fill the air. Your mother's neighborhood is completely empty, and she does not even light the lamp in her house. Your wife, Visnupriya rolls in the dust in your absence, her flower decorations broken.

Once, so long ago, you used to play games of Vraja on the streets of Navadwipa. Now who will ask your mother for butter and tell her that it is time to go herd the cows? "Its time to go herd the cows. Dress me mother, it's time to go out to pasture. Dress me up as a cowherd."

Now your mother Saci is calling, "Nimai, O Nimai!" And the tearful answer comers back, "He is not here, he is not here." Come back, O Navadwipa moon! Come back. The bees are crying in your absence; the birds have stopped singing and the flowers have stopped blooming. Come back, O Navadwipa moon! Come back, come back."

very sweet cry for her darling loved one

Babhru Das - October 13, 2007 9:25 pm

I don't know how strong this is as evidence, but I think it may fit here. The other day a Godbrother mentioned that when a disciple asked what the cowherd boys talk about, Srila Prabhupada replied, "Oh, they talk all nonsense!"

Swami - October 13, 2007 10:32 pm

I don't know how strong this is as evidence, but I think it may fit here. The other day a Godbrother mentioned that when a disciple asked what the cowherd boys talk about, Srila Prabhupada replied, "Oh, they talk all nonsense!"

That's nonsense!

Syamasundara - October 14, 2007 7:42 am

Thanks for keeping the thread alive.

Tadiya Dasi - October 14, 2007 4:41 pm

This poem may not seem to fit that well here, but I had to post it somewhere.

"O Nimai you are the full moon of love! Please come back, please come back to Nadiya, which has been plunged into the darkness of night.

O my Nimai, cries of distress fill the air. Your mother's neighborhood is completely empty, and she does not even light the lamp in her house. Your wife, Visnupriya rolls in the dust in your absence, her flower decorations broken.

Once, so long ago, you used to play games of Vraja on the streets of Navadwipa. Now who will ask your mother for butter and tell her that it is time to go herd the cows? "Its time to go herd the cows. Dress me mother, it's time to go out to pasture. Dress me up as a cowherd."

Now your mother Saci is calling, "Nimai, O Nimai!" And the tearful answer comers back, "He is not here, he is not here." Come back, O Navadwipa moon! Come back. The bees are crying in your absence; the birds have stopped singing and the flowers have stopped blooming. Come back, O Navadwipa moon! Come back, come back."

Thank you for posting this, Gurudev! It's so nice Where is it taken from?

Swami - October 14, 2007 5:11 pm

Thank you for posting this, Gurudev! It's so nice Where is it taken from?

I found this song in Bengali published in one of the old World Vaisna Association (WVA) magazines. I looked for it the other day but could not locate it. If anyone has back copies of this publcation they could help us find it. I believe it was in an article written by B.K. Santa Maharaja.

Tadiya Dasi - October 21, 2007 4:49 pm

Thank you for that info, Gurudev :Party:

Swami - October 21, 2007 9:07 pm

Thank you for that info, Gurudev

I will be spending some time with Sripad B.A. Paramadvaiti Maharaja in Vrndavana, and I am quite sure that he has copies of all the WBA publications. So I plan to locate the original Bengali edition of the song and trace out its author—to peek into his heart. :Party: O he vaisnava thakura doyara sagara karuna e dase karuna kori!

Gaura vijaya!

Bijaya Kumara Das - October 23, 2007 5:02 am

In that case I think we will not see Sridhara Maharaja's books and your books in Iskcon stores for a long while (if ever). I’m sure mediators, although maybe favorable to our cause, will face fierce resistance from beaurocrats and would have to chose sides, eventually they will try to sweep the whole thing under the rug once again. I’m sure no recordings or transcripts of your meeting would be available to members of Iskcon.

I have already gotten the BI to sell some at the Berekely temple

Visha shek Guru Maharajas' godbrother and book distibutor counterpart has good influence there and has help our cause tremendously

Swami - October 23, 2007 3:09 pm

Sri Jiva Goswami sings

"As Their friends sing, Balarama and His younger brother Krsna (ramao ramanuja iti yugalam) expertly dance.

Their splendid heads are crowned with beautiful mango flowers. Their amorous desires are like a new sprout rising from a seed in the forest of Their fresh youthfulness. Decorated with many beautiful jewels and peacock feathers, Their hair is like small dark clouds with stars and rainbows. Their wonderfully beautiful curling ears are like the whorls of newly blossomed lotus flowers. When the bumblebees see these flower-ears, They become filled with desire to drink their honey. They become struck with wonder and say:”What vine has borne these flowers?”

Their reddish hands are handsome, gracefully moving lotus flowers that shower drops of nectar on the bumblebees. Attracted by the sweet fragrance of Their flower garlands, the buzzing bees offer a great tumult of jubilant prayers.

Their glorious forms are light and dark and Their splendid garments are also light and dark. If They follow the surabhi cows into Gokula Village, then all our sufferings will end."

Could not copy the Sanskrit here. The song represents a gopi's perspective of Krsna and Balarama. The last line coluld be changed to, "If they take us with them into the forest with their cows, all a our suffering (of separation) will end."

Syamasundara - October 23, 2007 4:46 pm

Oh, we NEED the Sanskrit of that!

Here are mango flowers, they are so pretty and minuscule, perfect for a sila's crown, but they probably wilt in 3 seconds.

Prema-bhakti - October 23, 2007 9:53 pm

Srimad-Bhagavatma 4.24.45-46, Chanting the Song Sung by Lord Siva:

The Lord's beauty resembles a dark cloud during the rainy season. As the rainfall glistens, His bodily features also glisten. Indeed, He is the sum total of all beauty. The Lord has four arms and an exquisitely beautiful face with eyes like lotus petals, a beautiful highly raised nose, a mind-attracting smile, a beautiful forehead and equally beautiful and fully decorated ears.

Excerpt from Srila Prabhupada's purport:

The inhabitants of Vrndavana—the gopis, mother Yasoda, Nanda Maharaja, the cowherd boys, the cows and everyone else—are actually on the raga-marga or bhagavata-marga platform. They participate in five basic rasas-dasya, sakhya, vatsalya, madhurya and santa. But although these five rasas are found in the bhagavata-marga, the bhagavata-marga is especially meant for vatsalya and madhurya, or paternal and conjugal relationships. Yet there is the visralambha-sakhya, the higher fraternal worship of the Lord especially enjoyed by the cowherd boys. Although there is friendship between Krsna and the cowherd boys, this friendship is different from the aisvarya friendship between Krsna and Arjuna. When Arjuna saw the visva-rupa, the gigantic universal form of the Lord, he was afraid for having treated Krsna as an ordinary friend; therefore he begged Krsna's pardon. However, the cowherd boys who are friends of Krsna in Vrndavana sometimes ride on the shoulders of Krsna. They treat Krsna equally, just as they treat one another, and they are never afraid of Him, nor do they ever beg His pardon. Thus the raga-marga, or bhagavata-marga, friendship exists on a higher platform with Krsna, namely the platform of vipralambha friendship. Paternal friendship, paternal service and conjugal service are visible in the Vrndavana raga-marga relationships.

Bhrigu - October 24, 2007 9:34 am

"Viśralambha" and "vipralambha" friendship -- the editors evidently had problems with that word. It should be viśrambha, of course.

Prema-bhakti - October 24, 2007 1:38 pm

"Viśralambha" and "vipralambha" friendship -- the editors evidently had problems with that word. It should be viśrambha, of course.

Yes, seems so.

Syamasundara - October 24, 2007 4:13 pm

I was wondering about that virsralambha :Party: :Applause: :Big Grin:

Wow, how could it go unnoticed for over 30 years? I was of the conviction that the BBT books in English were super spotless.

Babhru Das - October 24, 2007 6:31 pm

Oh, dear--that's still in the Bhagavatam? Perhaps I should point it out to Dravida and Jayadvaita Maharaja.

Zvonimir Tosic - November 28, 2007 6:43 pm

"One day while sitting with Srila Prabhupada, Tamala Krsna began to describe the pastimes of Krsna as depicted in the painting hanging to the right of Srila Prabhupada's prasadam table. The painting showed Krsna and His cowherd friends eating lunch. Srila Prabhupada looked at the painting and then, closing his eyes and thinking of the lila, said, 'This is the highest perfection of life.'"
Prabhupada-lilamrta

This is so sweet!

Before I even knew about "rumours" about Srila Prahupada's nitya siddha, or anything like that, I was reading the 10th canto od Srimad Bhagavatam and for some strange reason I was admiring Srila Prabhupada's translation and his charming commentaries.

I also heard how anxious he was to translate as much of the 10th canto before the end of his life and I was asking myself .. was there some secret reason behind Srila Prabhupada's wish to reach those verses, in which pastures of Sri Krishna and his cowherd friends were described so sweetly, and then say to himself, "I've done it, my friend."

For me, it's obvious that Krishna has allowed him to fulfill his dream, reach the sweetest verses and then close his eyes.

Thank you so much for posting this vignette from Prabhupada's life, Swami Tripurari.

Ys,

zvonimir

Syamasundara - November 28, 2007 7:35 pm

I had never thought about it, when SP left, he was fully absorbed in the lila that most depicts how Krsna loves and knows his friends and cows.

Is that Ramacandra in your avatar picture?

Zvonimir Tosic - November 28, 2007 7:56 pm

I had never thought about it, when SP left, he was fully absorbed in the lila the most depicts how Krsna loves and knows his friends and cows.
Is that Ramacandra in your avatar picture?

Thank you for your reply, Syamasundara.

Actually, that's Laksmana. Once I had a dream, I was in some different time and age, and I saw a big gathering in the front of the forest. Then the people moved away to let the Lord Rama come forth, and, to my surprise, he approached me with the smile and addressed me as .. Laksmana. :Raised Eyebrow:

Dream was so nice an deep, very metaphorical, and I often reflect to it, finding always new inspiration and some new thoughts.

Zvonimir

Madan Gopal Das - January 27, 2008 8:10 am

Kartamisana

Syamasundara - January 27, 2008 3:52 pm

That's beautiful. I had never heard of that name, and they usually don't escape me (although they're infinite), nor do I know that poster. Is it possible to see it? I guess I'll google it.

Syamasundara - January 27, 2008 4:29 pm

Nope, no result at all :Sigh:

Zvonimir Tosic - January 28, 2008 2:33 am

Nope, no result at all

You're right, there's nothing like it.

So it is something very deep, very personal, and well worth exploring.

Thank you.

Braja-sundari Dasi - January 28, 2008 9:56 am

I tried to look to Monier-Williams dictionary but result for the word amisana was strange :Sigh:

Babhru Das - January 28, 2008 12:13 pm

This was the Deity for the Honolulu temple when I moved in early in 1970. I have always understood his name to be Kartamisa, which Srila Prabhupada said means "the boss." I've also seen it as Kartamasayi. Govinda dasi still worships this Deity even now.

I remember that, the first time I went to the temple, as I watched the devotee (Jayasri, I think) waving the arati articles before him, I thought, "If that's Krishna, I can understand why they worship him; he's very beautiful." No thought of idol worship or anything less than honoring the most beautiful person in the room entered my mind.

Gandiva Dasi - January 28, 2008 1:49 pm

This is a pretty old papier mache deity that we've always called Kartamasayi that presides over my living room. We inherited him from my in-laws, who kept him in their shop for over 50 years until the shop burnt down, but he was left standing but blackened. He has since been painted.

I searched for "Kartamasayi" and found this quote about Srila Prabhupada in 26 2nd Ave on purebhakti.com but I couldn't figure out who was narrating

"He pointed to the thin rod held by the Kartamasayi murti of Krsna and added, "When the cows don't want to walk, Krsna pushes them lightly with this stick." He then motioned toward Krsna as though proud of Him and added, "I like that doll. My desire is to be His friend."

I didn't know what to say. Was Prabhupada showing me how I should think? Was he letting me know in a concealed way that he was playing somewhere with Krsna in Vrndavana forest at the same time as he was talking to me?"

The narrator later went on to say " I did not know at that time, though, that Prabhupada would never be playing with Krsna without Radha, because as an acarya in the disciplic line from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Srila Rupa Gosvami, his service to Krsna in Goloka Vrndavana would be through Radharani. That would make him an even greater friend than those associates who want to be Krsna's friend directly. "

:Sigh: :

Babhru Das - January 28, 2008 2:35 pm

Well, isn't that exactly the spin you'd expect to get at purebhakti.com?

Syamasundara - January 28, 2008 5:22 pm

Prabhupada would never be playing with Krsna without Radha, because as an acarya in the disciplic line from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Srila Rupa Gosvami, his service to Krsna in Goloka Vrndavana would be through Radharani. That would make him an even greater friend than those associates who want to be Krsna's friend directly. "

That's just fascinating...

guru-mukha-padma-vakya cittete koriya akya..... or?

Swami - February 1, 2008 1:21 am

This is a pretty old papier mache deity that we've always called Kartamasayi that presides over my living room. We inherited him from my in-laws, who kept him in their shop for over 50 years until the shop burnt down, but he was left standing but blackened. He has since been painted.

I searched for "Kartamasayi" and found this quote about Srila Prabhupada in 26 2nd Ave on purebhakti.com but I couldn't figure out who was narrating

"He pointed to the thin rod held by the Kartamasayi murti of Krsna and added, "When the cows don't want to walk, Krsna pushes them lightly with this stick." He then motioned toward Krsna as though proud of Him and added, "I like that doll. My desire is to be His friend."

I didn't know what to say. Was Prabhupada showing me how I should think? Was he letting me know in a concealed way that he was playing somewhere with Krsna in Vrndavana forest at the same time as he was talking to me?"

The narrator later went on to say " I did not know at that time, though, that Prabhupada would never be playing with Krsna without Radha, because as an acarya in the disciplic line from Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu and Srila Rupa Gosvami, his service to Krsna in Goloka Vrndavana would be through Radharani. That would make him an even greater friend than those associates who want to be Krsna's friend directly. "

:

Most certianly written by Jadurani. My she sure ruined a great story. gadhopakari smrti dah priyanam

Zvonimir Tosic - February 1, 2008 2:38 am

Most certianly written by Jadurani. My she sure ruined a great story. gadhopakari smrti dah priyanam

Obviously, she has dismissed your nice conversation in Sanga Q&A from few years ago.

Syamasundara - February 1, 2008 2:40 am

OK, this should leave a better taste within everyone. Read through the end.

I am so excited to find out about a name and form of the Lord I didn't know in all these years.

Syamasundara - February 1, 2008 2:42 am

Obviously, she has dismissed your nice conversation in Sanga Q&A .

If only... at least that would mean she actually read it first, but alas...

Jiva-daya Dasa - February 1, 2008 4:24 pm

OK, this should leave a better taste within everyone. Read through the end.

I am so excited to find out about a name and form of the Lord I didn't know in all these years.

Thank you so much for this link, how wonderful!

Babhru Das - April 4, 2008 2:56 pm

I found this on Dandavats today. It's from a class Srutakirti gave on Gaura-purnima in Mayapura, and the incident is in Atlanta in 1975, while Srila Prabhupada is on a whirlwind world tour, seeing hundreds of devotees chanting in temples where Gaura-Nitai are being worshipped, everywhere:

But one thing I have to tell you that happened there. As I said, Prabhupada was… something I had not experienced so much before… he just had this ecstasy that…it just began escaping from him. He was always in control of that, but it was just happening. So every night I would massage Prabhupada in his room there. For three days he stayed there, his quarters are still there just as when he stayed there. So as Prabhupada was laying down in bed, and he had his head up a little bit on the pillow and I was rubbing his legs and rubbing his feet, so the massage was going on for 10 or 15 minutes.

Prabhupada’s massage in the evening was the most personal intimate tie to be with Prabhupada. The lights were out, the room was dark. There would be some light from wherever, and no-one ever entered Prabhupada’s room while he received his evening massage, no-one ever came into Prahupada’s quarters. So it was just him and his servant. So as I was massaging, Prabhupada all of a sudden said, “I like the cowherd boys very much.” When he would speak in the evening it was nothing but nectar, always nectar. So just continued, never stopped massaging. And he was looking at the picture, big painting on the wall at the foot of his bed and he was just looking into it. So I looked and I realized he was looking and this picture was Krsna and Balarama and They were just young boys, 8 years old, and with Them there were thousands of cowherd boys and calves and they were just in the forest of Vrindavan. So Prabhupada was looking at that. So I am massaging.

Then he said, “Every day Krsna and Balarama They would go into the forest in Vrindavan. Before they would go, Their mothers would make lunches, prepare tiffins for Them.” I’m just shaking my head. Prabhupada is speaking very softly. Prabhupada is just there, right there inside that scene and he is speaking about it. When Prabhupada talked, he would just bring you, he would transport you right there. So he said, “Krsna’s mother Yashoda, she would make very nice tiffin and in it there would be puri, halava, kachori, laddhu. And the other cowherd boys, their mothers were not so opulent so their tiffins would have chapatti, rice, subji, like that.”

And then he said, “Then they would go and they would play all day, and they didn’t have the cows. They are just little boys so they would have the calves. The calves were with them. Then finally they would stop for lunch. Sometimes one of the cowherd boys would steal Krsna’s lunch and begin throwing it around, they would play keep-away with Krsna.” I’m just massaging the whole time. He said, “Finally the cowherd boys they would throw their lunch to Krsna and they would sit down with His lunch and they would eat puri, halava, kachori and laddhu. And Krsna would sit with them and He would eat the rice, chapatia and subji.”

He was smiling so brightly. And then he stopped, and I’m still massaging. Then he said, “I just want to go back to the spiritual world and eat kachori and laddhu with Krsna.” Then he closed his eyes and didn’t say anything more and I just kept massaging. So it was something, very rare experience that I could see Prabhupada was just so much ecstasy seeing everyone becoming Krsna conscious all over the world.

Madan Gopal Das - April 4, 2008 3:19 pm

AWESOME!! I LOVE IT! When you think of Prabhupada in these situations it is just so natural, feels so right, to know his feelings for sakhya. I'm happy to be in such sanga where this is clear and relishable.

Syamasundara - April 4, 2008 3:51 pm

While I was readiing I was thinking: "Nice, but he's just referring to a passage of the SB, influenced by the specific picture in front of him" but the last statement tied it all together. How beautiful.

I am happy to see Madan's enthusiasm, but at the same time something makes me want to go ssshhh

Babhru Das - April 25, 2008 9:15 pm

My Godbrother BV Madhava Maharaja, who is very interested in this subject, recently posed some questions to Govinda dasi about things she might know in this regard. Her response was a little defensive in some ways, but here's something relevant from her letter to him:

In regard to your specific questions, things have been confused. I'll try

clarify.

1. The two paintings Srila Prabhupada had me paint when I first met him were:

a) a 4 foot by 4 foot painting of Radha and Krishna and a cow, copied from his original Srimad Bhagawatam cover.

:Talking Ear Off: A painting of Srila Prabhupada with the painting of Lord Chaitanya's Sankirtan Party behind him. He specifically asked that Lord Chaitanya's Lotus Foot be ouching his head.

2. The two-page-spread drawing that you refer to was done in Montreal while Srila Prabhupada was recovering in Vrindavan, India in 1967. At that time I did

an elaborate drawing of Vrindavan with Krishna and Balaram coming home with thousands of cows. It was later painted by the BBT artists and is also used as

a backdrop behind Krishna and Balarama here in Vrindavan. It is definitely a divinely inspired painting. I didn't know what Vrindavan looked like, but the picture was done from Srila Prabhupada's descriptions and, moreover, from his guidance within the heart. His bhakti shone through the work of all the artists at that time and the bhakti was real as it was his. We were just workers, marionettes. The drawing had a cowherd boy to the left of Krishna. In my vision then, this was Srila Prabhupada. I sent a copy of it to him as a gift with a note saying, this is your cowboy form with Krishna and Balarama. Strangely enough, this didn't seem out of place at the time. It was not precocious or assuming; it was just my simple perception. There was no reply and no discussion about it. It was pretty much a common understanding amongst all of us disciples at that time that Srila Prabhupada was a cowherd boy.

3. In the car in Seattle in 1968, he was talking about this and said, “My Guru Maharaj's rasa is that of Gopi Manjari, but I am in relationship with Krishna as cowherd boy.”

4. Occasionally he acted this part of a cowherd boy, especially in Seattle when Harsharani was there. She was very finely tuned to the mystical and other

worldly things. Early on, she had an uncanny understanding of Srila Prabhupada. In 1968, while Srila Prabhupada was in Montreal, she sent him a poem. The

gist of her poem was: I offer my humble obeisances to my Spiritual Master, who is running among the trees in Vrindavan, playing hide and seek with the Supreme

Personality of Godhead, Sri Krishna... etc. I read the poem to Srila Prabhupada and was a little amazed. But I was even more amazed when he became quietly blissful and said, "Yes, she has become advanced. Print this poem in our BTG." I sent it in for publication, but I've searched and never found it. Perhaps they didn't print it. Maybe you can find out?

In 1968, in Seattle, Harsharani, Kartikeya and I all lived with Srila Prabhupada. He was very informal and because she had an understanding of his lila form, he often acted accordingly, often playful and mischievous as a cowherd boy. It was very esoteric. I had never seen this before but Harsharani seemed to bring out this side.

And yes, he did exclaim, "I want to go to Krishnaloka so I can have His laddhus and kachoris," while sitting in a joyful trance-like state while in New York. And then he added, "If you make me laddhus and katchoris, I will bless you!" So Kartikeya and I quickly said, "Oh, please teach us to make them and we will make them for you." And he did.

I don't know the various philosophical aspects of all this. I don't know if he was only showing us one side of his multi-facetted personality. I can only tell you what I saw and heard. It was a different time, then. We were all so caught up in a fast-moving whirlwind of love and joy that we neither questioned nor doubted. We were close to the ultimate dimension of pure reality, and therefore petty judgments, rationalizations, and speculations and the like held no fascination for us. We were in love and in a dimension that we still have not completely understood. Perhaps it cannot be fully understood. Certainly it cannot be adequately expressed in mere words. So please do not ask me to say who Srila Prabhupada is. I do not know. And if I did, I would simply faint.

Prema-bhakti - April 26, 2008 2:42 am

So please do not ask me to say who Srila Prabhupada is. I do not know. And if I did, I would simply faint.[/indent][/color]

How could one not know from this? Number 3 is a dead givaway. :Talking Ear Off:

Babhru Das - April 26, 2008 3:09 am

You'd have to know Govinda dasi. I can't even remember how many times over the last 38-39 years she has described Srila Prabhupada as acting "just like a cowherd boy" in those early years; still she gets all mental about Srila Prabhupada having some extra-special identity, something completely unprecedented, of some sort. It's not enough for her that he did what he did, and that he his who he is, but she has to imagine some unique sort of Deputy identity. Maybe she's holding out for some sort of big-A Avatar badge for him. I don't know . . .

Bijaya Kumara Das - May 2, 2008 8:30 am

It was well known back in the 70's that His Divine Grace wanted ladhus and we all could not wait until some devotees came home with some ladhu prashad from His plate. We all in the Dakotas thought that he was a cowboy of the highest calibur.

Ladhu is what you get at Tiripati where the diety from the previous Yuga is still worshipped and they are fantastic.

This is some great nectar revealed. Please keep it flowing.

Babhru Das - July 16, 2008 2:57 pm

I came across this in a blog kept by Krshna-kripa das, a devotee I used to know in San Diego. He had snippets from some talks by Indradyumna Swami:

Once Srila Prabhupada told one inquirer that Hare Krishna means "O my friend! O my friend!"

Prema-bhakti - July 16, 2008 3:56 pm

Once Srila Prabhupada told one inquirer that Hare Krishna means "O my friend! O my friend!"

SWEET!

Swami - August 3, 2008 11:53 am

I don't think this has been posted yet. Its a discussion between Prabhupada and his disciple Hrsikesananda.

HD: Gurudev, what about rupanuga bhakti. What is the eternal relationship

between us (disciples) and you?

ACBSP: (Prabhupada quotes the 2nd half of sloka 6 of Gurvastaka) Guru is

serving under his master and you all can do likewise. In Nitya-lila every

devotee thinks like that, that my master is the most dear to Radha-Krsna.

HD: So that means that my relationship with you is eternal, that it will

continue in Nitya-lila?

ACBSP: Yes.

HD: As manjaris?

ACBSP: Down to sakhya.

HD: But for 'Rupanugas' isn't it always manjari-bhava?

ACBSP: That is the highest; but in the spiritual world there is no

such distinction.

Madan Gopal Das - August 3, 2008 12:35 pm

Wow, so direct!!!

Gaura-Vijaya Das - August 3, 2008 1:36 pm

But doesn't this imply that all of SP disciples have to be in sakhya beause the relationship between guru and disciple is eternal according to SP.

Citta Hari Dasa - August 3, 2008 3:28 pm

But doesn't this imply that all of SP disciples have to be in sakhya beause the relationship between guru and disciple is eternal according to SP.

No, it doesn't. Dukhi Krsna dasa/Syamananda's story illustrates this. Also Guru Maharaja has said that SP's preaching was very broad and he attracted people whose destinations were not necessarily in his group in the spiritual world.

Prema-bhakti - August 3, 2008 4:26 pm

Krsna is adi-guru and the guru is His external manifestation. Our relationship with Krsna is eternal and in Goloka our guru is there with Krsna in His own relationship (sthayi-bhava). We will also be there albeit perhaps in different capacities of service. We are all connected to the center augmenting (sancari-bhava) our main sentiments for Krsna.

Babhru Das - August 3, 2008 5:01 pm

We also have the example of Vijaya-kumar and Vrajanath in Jaiva Dharma. Both are disciples of Raghunath das babaji; however, Vijaya-kumar's eternal form is that of a manjari serving under Lalita-devi's direction, and Vrajanath's is that of a gopa serving under Subal. Same guru, different siddha-dehas.

Gandiva Dasi - August 4, 2008 3:55 am

and Srila Prabhupada's own example.

3. In the car in Seattle in 1968, he was talking about this and said, “My Guru Maharaj's rasa is that of Gopi Manjari, but I am in relationship with Krishna as cowherd boy.”

Babhru Das - August 4, 2008 5:25 pm

Yep--you betcha!

Citta Hari Dasa - August 4, 2008 6:03 pm

Yep--you betcha!

What I find somewhat amazing is that despite all this information being available people still see SP as a manjari.

Madan Gopal Das - August 4, 2008 6:37 pm

What I find somewhat amazing is that despite all this information being available people still see SP as a manjari.

All this information is available, but most people aren't searching for the gold that we are. When you are open to the hints, all of a sudden you are on the trail and one clue after another starts to pop up. Then there is no turning back on the idea. Contrary evidence (what contrary evidence??) carries less weight and the conclusion becomes obvious, attractive and satisfying. Then there is the huge component of following a person who has acquaintance with his guru's inner life. :Tounge: AND following a person who follows a person (Pujyapada Sridhar Maharaj) who has acquaintance with his brother's inner life.

Babhru Das - August 5, 2008 12:32 am

All this information is available, but most people aren't searching for the gold that we are. When you are open to the hints, all of a sudden you are on the trail and one clue after another starts to pop up. Then there is no turning back on the idea.

Well, then maybe someone should package it in a way that makes it hard for any honest seeker to miss.

Citta Hari Dasa - August 5, 2008 1:52 am

Well, then maybe someone should package it in a way that makes it hard for any honest seeker to miss.

Guru Maharaja has done that in at least one Sanga.

Vrindaranya Dasi - August 5, 2008 2:47 am

Babhru is writing an article right now.

Citta Hari Dasa - August 5, 2008 4:00 pm

Babhru is writing an article right now.

I look forward to reading that! Once it's written, then what? See if Dandavats.com will put it up?

Babhru Das - August 5, 2008 5:10 pm

I look forward to reading that! Once it's written, then what? See if Dandavats.com will put it up?

Yeah, right! Dandavats didn't post a link to the last class I gave in Alachua. But once it's done, I think we'll let it sit and ferment a bit and see what ideas we come up with. It looks as though it will be about 10,000 words, so a post on Dandavats or wherever might not be the optimal use. Who's going to read something that long on the screen?

Citta Hari Dasa - August 5, 2008 8:15 pm

Yeah, right! Dandavats didn't post a link to the last class I gave in Alachua. But once it's done, I think we'll let it sit and ferment a bit and see what ideas we come up with. It looks as though it will be about 10,000 words, so a post on Dandavats or wherever might not be the optimal use. Who's going to read something that long on the screen?

Yeah, I didn't really think Dandavats would do anything with it--too controversial for them.

To publish it as a small booklet (like Sri Guru-parampara) would be super cool, as well as having it available for download on the website.

Babhru Das - August 5, 2008 9:31 pm

The possibility of a booklet has been discussed. We'll see . . .

Brahma Dasa - August 7, 2008 5:07 pm

I am sorry to go against the current here but…I don’t really see the necessity of a formal effort to prove what is largely un-provable. Even Sridhara Maharaja qualified his opinion that Srila Prabhupada was in sakya rasa by saying that the shakti of Nitai may have overshadowed Prabhupada’s madurya sentiments. Furthermore it says in Jiva dharma that a disciple may see the guru in relation to his own bhava i.e that some may see Srila Prabhupada in madurya and others may see him in sakya. There is nothing wrong with this and certainly there will never be any consensus in the matter—even Narsinga Maharaja believes that SP was in madurya rasa.

“Some devotees may be in favor of our Guru Maharaja in sakhya-rasa while others may favor him in madhurya-rasa but to establish a right and a wrong in this matter may not be as black and white as some would like it to be. The truth is subjective-as He wishes us to see Him, so we shall see Him.

From Krsna Talk: http://gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html...radayas_fs.html

Swami already relayed his feeling and arguments in Sanga—so to further campaign to establish SP in Sakya rasa seems to me to be as unnecessary or (I dare to say) fanatic as the campaign already in progress to establish him in madurya rasa.

So help me out here---What is to be accomplished by another article what to speak of a booklet?

Citta Hari Dasa - August 7, 2008 5:28 pm

Brahma, I don't think Guru Maharaja or Babhru are fanatically trying to force anything on anyone, rather just trying to bring balance to the idea that "Prabhupada must be in madhurya-rasa because that is the highest rasa," etc. To present the evidence so that people can be informed and perhaps more balanced in their views.

Brahma Dasa - August 7, 2008 9:09 pm

A truly balanced presentation would consider all the evidence giving arguments from both sides and allowing the reader to come to his own conclusions. That’s not what this thread is about—which only presents one viewpoint.

I don’t disagree with the viewpoint, but I question the need to go out and push the issue.

(After his Nitai shakti comments Sridhara Maharaja simply said that he would not discuss it any more.)

However, as a decision has already been made to do so, then I think the emphasis in the article should not be placed on trying to establish SP as a sakya rasa guru, but on countering the argument that a guru in the Rupanuga sampradaya cannot be in sakya rasa (which is a premise that can be objectively proven). That’s the real problem, not that devotees have different visions or opinions regarding Srila Prabhupada’s rasa.

Babhru Das - August 7, 2008 9:47 pm

The balance will be in looking at the evidence we have alongside the case presented by the other group. I'm reluctant to discuss this topic in public, as I make clear in my opening paragraph. I have a sense that it may even be indecent to do so. And I have no intention of trying to prove that Srila Prabhupada is without doubt a sakhya rasa guru. The only reason to bring the topic up is that those other folks have been arguing for years, with no equivocation at all, that it is impossible for Srila Prabhupada, or any devotee in our line, to be in any other bhava than madhurya. And they do so in public. Jadurani has done so on the internet, and in public meetings billed as "Syamarani recounting her early days with Srila Prabhupada, when he taught her to paint for Krishna," she turns them into a big argument to this effect. She did that once in Hilo, and my friend Vidagdha Madhava and I had to restrain ourselves from asking any questions. The next day, I suppose because Mula and Gopa gave her what-for, she left an apology on my answering machine two messages long.

As I mentioned above, I don't argue that Srila Prabhupada is without doubt a sakhya rasa guru, especially in the sense that he teaches sakhya rasa. Our Swami has often talked about the breadth of Srila Prabhupada's outreach. My main point is that the evidence from sastra; from Srila Prabhupada himself, both in his writings and interactions with his disciples; and from sadhus shows that the claim that our line gives only manjari-bhava is mistaken. I do end up arguing, however, that, although our line's acaryas in sakhya rasa have unarguably been invisible for generations, that strain of bhakti seems to have emerged again, and broken the surface with a bit of a splash.

I sympathize with your concerns, Brahma, but when you put the evidence against their contention that it's impossible, impossible, impossible that Srila Prabhupada could be anything other than a manjari together with the evidence for his affinity for sakhya rasa, it's a little overwhelming. But, please, let's continue to discuss this. None of us has made a decision about just what to do with this (the original idea was to perhaps just keep it on hand), and there remains much work to be done on the piece.

Brahma, I couldn't get the link to take me to a Krsna Talk. It just took me to Gosai's "Vaisnava Sampradayas" page. Could you give me the number of the Krsna Talk you reference?

Syamasundara - August 7, 2008 10:11 pm

It feels like a cold shower on my heart, but I also sympathize with, and see all of Brahma's points.

At the same time I have a lot of confidence that Babhru, or anybody in the Gaudiya Sarasvata Sampradaya, who has had any connection with Sridhara Maharaja, will make a balanced, harmonizing, well-informed and inspiring presentation for all.

With the right amount of thought into it, this booklet can help a lot of people, like "Sri Guru and His Grace", or "Sri Guru Parampara" do, albeit to a lesser extent.

Anything that's form-breaking, thought-provoking and essence-seeking is good and much needed these days.

And by the way, if SP was affiliated with priya-narma-sakhya, and this could be, if not proved, at least proposed as a possibility, the whole issue would be already solved.

Swami - August 7, 2008 10:14 pm

I am sorry to go against the current here but…I don’t really see the necessity of a formal effort to prove what is largely un-provable. Even Sridhara Maharaja qualified his opinion that Srila Prabhupada was in sakya rasa by saying that the shakti of Nitai may have overshadowed Prabhupada’s madurya sentiments. Furthermore it says in Jiva dharma that a disciple may see the guru in relation to his own bhava i.e that some may see Srila Prabhupada in madurya and others may see him in sakya. There is nothing wrong with this and certainly there will never be any consensus in the matter—even Narsinga Maharaja believes that SP was in madurya rasa.

“Some devotees may be in favor of our Guru Maharaja in sakhya-rasa while others may favor him in madhurya-rasa but to establish a right and a wrong in this matter may not be as black and white as some would like it to be. The truth is subjective-as He wishes us to see Him, so we shall see Him.

From Krsna Talk: http://gosai.com/chaitanya/saranagati/html...radayas_fs.html

Swami already relayed his feeling and arguments in Sanga—so to further campaign to establish SP in Sakya rasa seems to me to be as unnecessary or (I dare to say) fanatic as the campaign already in progress to establish him in madurya rasa.

So help me out here---What is to be accomplished by another article what to speak of a booklet?

Sridhara Maharaja did not qualify his opinion. He made his opinion very clear. When people complained about his opinion he generously tried to offer some reasoning as to how one might think differently given the external evidence available to Sridhara Maharaja at the time. Two things are important to note in this regard.

1. A wealth of evidence has been uncovered since SM gave his opinion, evidence that supports his own personal conclusion. This wealth includes Prabhupada's own direct statements to more than one of his disciples, statements in which he says his svarupa is that of a gopa. It also includes numerous indirect statements and overall amounts to an overwhelming amount of evidence from all over the place.

2. In offering alternative spiritual reasoning in the absence of further evidence, SM is not saying that both could be correct. Only one is correct. Prabhupada is not a gopi and a gopa. His sentiment is that of one or the other, although it may be that of a gopa whose sentiment is mixed with madhurya, a priyanarma. Indeed, all the external evidence points in this direction.

Regarding Jaiva Dharma, the teaching here is not that the guru is either a gopi or gopa and such depnds upon the bhava of the diciple. The teaching is that the disciple may be in one bhava or another and accordingly the student will see that "guru-tattva" represents one or the other for that particular disciple, not that the svarupa of the guru can be both. Just as the president of the US lives in a particular state, but in his capacity as president he represents all the states. However, in doing so he nonetheless maintains his special and particular affinity for his home state.

I believe there will be a consensus among objective persons and that it is provable by combining external with internal evidence. In the article we are compiling the external evidence that has come together somewhat spontaneously. Should such wealth not be offered to all concerned? If it is inconvenient for some, should we hide it. Sridhara Maharaja was not one to hide his observations in this regard. I for one as a disciple find this evidence the most relishable information about my guru, and I think you would find that any such evidence in any other group would be thought of in the same way by the disciples in relation to their guru. The external hints from BSST about SM are trumpeted over and over and over again--sri rupa manjari pada. If others have more significant evidence to the contrary, let them bring it out. So far we have heard next to nothing in the name of evidence, nothing but misconceptions such as how a Gaudiya acarya can not be in sakhya rasa, sakhya rasa is lower, etc. Have we no obligation to clear of these widespread misconceptions, especially when they are propagated in relation to our own acaryadeva?

It is not fanatical to present the truth, both siddhanta and evidence in response to the fanatical campaigning of others. Yes, I have said a few words about this on sanga, but there is much more to say and in saying it it will leave little doubt as to the facts.

Babhru Das - August 7, 2008 10:30 pm

I'd like to say one more thing about putting this together. At first I was sort of arranging the different pieces of evidence collected in this thread and writing a little to tie them together. Then I started writing more, and I asked Swami about it. He told me to just go for it. As I worked, I brought more evidence together supporting the first contention, that the claim that our sampradaya is exclusively about manjari bhava, and the growing evidence from other places about Srila Prabhupada specifically, and the work became play. I'd be working, sometimes with Krishna das babaji Maharaja playing, and every once in a while I'd jump up out of my chair and dance and chant. There's a sense in which I don't care what we do with it in the long run. The process has been purifying for me. For years and years I taught over 6,000 college and university students that writing can be a process of discovery, a way of learning. That's what the last couple of weeks have been for me. And frankly, there's so much nectar here that it would be a damned shame not to share it.

As Swami says, if someone has evidence for another case, let 'em bring it out. Let's churn the ocean of Srila Prabhupada's glories until there's a hurricane of such kirtan, then let's paddle out and ride the waves for all we're worth.

Cowabunga!

Citta Hari Dasa - August 7, 2008 10:44 pm

Now I really can't wait to see it!

Syamasundara - August 7, 2008 11:15 pm

Now I really can't wait to see it!

Indeed! :Cow: :Cow: :Cow: :Cow: :Cow: :Cow: :Cow: :Cow: :Cow: :Cow:

Syamasundara - August 7, 2008 11:17 pm

although it may be that of a gopa whose sentiment is mixed with madhurya, a priyanarma. Indeed, all the external evidence points in this direction.

Really? Could you say some more about it? I can only think of SP quoting Madhumangala.

Vrindaranya Dasi - August 7, 2008 11:38 pm

A truly balanced presentation would consider all the evidence giving arguments from both sides and allowing the reader to come to his own conclusions. That’s not what this thread is about—which only presents one viewpoint.

This thread is about evidence indicating Srila Prabhupada is in sakhya-rasa. To be balanced, a booklet would naturally have to consider both sides of the issue. But as far as I have encountered, there is scanty evidence to support the contention that Srila Prabhupada is in madhurya-rasa. This suggests (and I'm still open to hearing more evidence) that by placing all available evidence for sakhya-rasa on one side of the scale and madhurya-rasa on the other side, the sakhya-rasa side is going to be much heavier. Thus I think it is important to stress the following: a balanced treatment does not mean that the scale is going to be balanced. In other words, to be balanced we don't have to try to make it seem like either conclusion is equally valid. There may be subjective truth as to how a disciple sees his or her guru, but there is objective truth as to the guru's actual sentiment. And further, Srila Prabhupada said, “My Guru Maharaj's rasa is that of Gopi Manjari, but I am in relationship with Krishna as cowherd boy.” Thus it appears that seeing one's Guru in relation to one's own sentiment either isn't universal or is different that what we may be conceiving of it as.

I don’t disagree with the viewpoint, but I question the need to go out and push the issue.
(After his Nitai shakti comments Sridhara Maharaja simply said that he would not discuss it any more.)

Although Srila Sridhara Maharaja said that he didn't want to discuss it anymore, this doesn't mean that we shouldn't. This is due to the misconceptions that developed and have been widely propagated after Srila Sridhara Maharaja's departure.

However, as a decision has already been made to do so, then I think the emphasis in the article should not be placed on trying to establish SP as a sakya rasa guru, but on countering the argument that a guru in the Rupanuga sampradaya cannot be in sakya rasa (which is a premise that can be objectively proven). That’s the real problem, not that devotees have different visions or opinions regarding Srila Prabhupada’s rasa.

The problem with this approach is that it throws out the most striking evidence. As to the analysis that the real problem is the idea that a guru in the Rupanuga sampradaya can't be in in sakhya-rasa, I disagree. If you could convince people that one can hypothetically be in sakhya-rasa, a real problem would still exist as long as the idea was still pushed that Srila Prabhupada is in madhurya-rasa. Why? Because it would do very little to counteract the propaganda pressuring people to hold madhurya-rasa as their ideal, which is very real and widespread. It biases devotees in general, and more importantly, it does so on a false platform.

Perhaps a concern is there that discussing the svarupa of the guru is so taboo. Is it? In theory, perhaps. But who feels uneasy about saying that Bhaktivinode Thakura or Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati is a manjari? Rather, this open secret is celebrated. Should it have been suppressed to protect the feelings of those in sakhya-rasa? It didn't bother Srila Prabhupada, and it wouldn't bother anyone with real bhava. If it is true that Srila Prabhupada is in sakhya-rasa, it stands to reason that many of his disciples would also manifest this sentiment. As Babhru said, "although our line's acaryas in sakhya rasa have unarguably been invisible for generations, that strain of bhakti seems to have emerged again, and broken the surface with a bit of a splash." Let Srila Prabhupada's svarupa be trumpeted! Let the cowherd boys have a special reason to rejoice and swell with pride! Cowabunga indeed!!! :Cow:

Syamasundara - August 8, 2008 12:19 am

I tend and try to be very self-censoring about this topic :Cow: in light of my lack of qualification and how behind I am on the path, but just for this once...

:Cow: :Cow: :Cow: :Cow: :Cow: :Cow: :Cow: :Cow: :Cow: :Cow: :Party: :Cow: :Cow: :Cow:

Babhru Das - August 8, 2008 12:43 am

Really? Could you say some more about it? I can only think of SP quoting Madhumangala.

About that; There's a definite "laddus and kachoris" motif. At one point I had that in the title.

Brahma Dasa - August 8, 2008 12:50 am

One would have a hard time convincing everyone who reads the transcript that overall Sridhara Maharaja did not qualify his opinion. (Note: its almost clear)

Otherwise, without a direct vedabase reference the evidence given by some of Prabhupada's disciples is circumstantial and hearsay. In other words unprovable.

Krsna Talk 13 : My Guru is Radharani

So my question is, being an admirer of Srila Sridhara Maharaja how do you harmonize your opinion about the rasa of your Guru Maharaja with that indicated by Srila Sridhara Maharaja?

Narasingha Maharaja: “When Srila Sridhara Maharaja heard the recitation of the poem composed by our Guru Maharaja, "Prayer to the Lotus Feet of Krsna," he commented that there was indeed strong indication of our Srila Prabhupada being in sakhya-rasa. Srila Sridhara Maharaja said, "He has expressed himself, his eternal position, the acme of his aspiration. In Vrindavan he has established Balarama and Krishna and Nitai Gaura, and he is saying like that, Nitai Gaura are Krishna and Balarama. It's almost clear that he comes from that group. And now he's again there. Hare Krishna."

Such a statement by Srila Sridhara Maharaja is not to be taken lightly. A short time later there was some objection to Srila Sridhara Maharaja's referring to our Guru Maharaja as being in sakhya-rasa. Some of Srila Prabhupada's disciples for some reason took objection to Srila Sridhara Maharaja's statement. Srila Sridhara Maharaja was shocked by the immaturity of those disciples who objected. The consideration of rasa was obviously not a topic that those disciples were familiar with. Indeed their harshness in dealing with Srila Sridhara Maharaja reflected their extremely neophyte state of Krsna consciousness. At that time Srila Sridhara Maharaja made reference to the effect that because of the special empowerment of Sri Nityananda Prabhu that our Guru Maharaja might have couched his madhurya tendencies in deference to Lord Nityananda.

The idea given by Srila Sridhara Mahraja was that it is possible that our Guru Maharaja was in madhurya rasa, but out of deference to Nityananda by whose potency he was influenced for his preaching campaign, Srila Prabhupada may have veiled his madhurya sentiments. Therefore some of the sakhya influence of Nityananda Prabhu was shown outwardly, keeping madhurya in the backgound. It was not unthinkable for Srila Sridhara Maharaja to say such a thing-that our Guru Maharaja was outwardly showing sakhya influence and keeping his madhurya sentiments in the background. Certainly such is not unreasonable.

Babhru Das - August 8, 2008 1:24 am

One would have a hard time convincing everyone who reads the transcript that overall Sridhara Maharaja did not qualify his opinion. (Note: its almost clear)
Otherwise, without a direct vedabase reference the evidence given by some of Prabhupada's disciples is circumstantial and hearsay. In other words unprovable.

Well, I think we may say it's considerably more clear now. And about VedaBase as a pramana, I'm not to keen on it. There's an enormous amount of what Srila Prabhupada said, even in formal classes, much less walks, room conversations, etc., that's just not in the VedaBase. I saw a DVD of a class he gave in Hilo a couple of years ago, and I could find that class neither in the VedaBase nor in the "Complete" mp3 series. And I can tell you some things he said on the Big Island that are not in the VedaBase (might be some day, since I sent Ek the tape), and something he told my friend Tarun Kanti, my wife, and me in a private meeting in his room in 1973. That will never be in the VedaBase, but I know he said it. The same goes for comments he made about Aniruddha in the Honolulu airport in 1974. So something's absence from VedaBase says nothing except that it's incomplete. Sure, in court it's hearsay. But even in court, there's a different burden of proof in criminal cases from that for civil cases. For criminal cases, the burden is to prove a case beyond reasonable doubt; for civil cases, is a preponderance of proof. I think we can safely say we have the latter, at the least. Many will find the evidence also makes the case beyond a reasonable doubt, although "reason" is subjective, especially here.

Unprovable? Only to those don't want to change their hearts. In the meantime, let us, as Vrindaranya says, trumpet Srila Prabhupada's glories. Who will not hear? (That's a rhetorical question. Please don't tell me their names; I probably already know.)

Madan Gopal Das - August 8, 2008 1:28 am

I don't remember them being in this thread, so here's a couple more nectar tidbits to add into the overall picture...

1) Not necessarily stunning evidence, but kinda sweet; Srila Prabhupada left Calcutta aboard the Jaladuta on the morning after Baladeva-purnima, 1965.

2) Prabhupad's establishing Krsna Balaram mandir in Raman-reti, a then undeveloped area of Vrndavana. There is a lot to be churned from this event.

Margaret Dale - August 8, 2008 1:56 am

I have no evidence one way or the other regarding this debate other than what has been posted here.

What irks me is the people who seem to be implying that sakhya rasa is somehow an inferior position. Although the scripture describes divisions for service, and lists madhurya rasa as highest, "inferior" and "superior" are relative terms. We are incredibly fortunate to have even indirect association with someone who is in Goloka, regardless of their position! Even if Prabhupada was in the (gasp! heaven forbid!) in the position of sakya rasa, he would still be infinitely superior those who are almost disparaging sakhya rasa. My opinion is that that attitude borders on vaisnava aparadha. Also, if Krsna wants Prabhupada as a cowherd friend, who on earth are we to argue? As I understand it, Krsna is the one who establishes our siddha-deha according to His desires, so arguing with someone's siddha deha designation is arguing with Krsna.

I'm sure that these things I'm saying are painfully obvious to everyone else.

Brahma Dasa - August 8, 2008 2:03 am

Babhru,

Without a direct quote from Prabhupada the best you can do is the “Preponderance of the evidence”. In civil law the “Preponderance of the evidence," merely requires that the matter asserted seem more likely true than not. “Seem” is of course subjective.

Anyway, I seem to have now become very interested in reading your presentation.

All the best, Brahma

Citta Hari Dasa - August 8, 2008 2:38 am

Brahma, direct quotes do exist, and have already been posted in this thread:

Another anecdote, this one from my Godbrother Subala dasa:

“When Prabhupada came to Vrndavana for a visit, I got Dr. Kapoor to come with me to ask about it (discussing one's siddha deha). Prabhupada said, “This is not done in our line. One must realize his relationship for himself. One cannot just jump ahead. When one is ripe and ready, it will be revealed from within . . . I am a cowherd boy.”

Brahma Dasa - August 8, 2008 4:00 am

This is not a verifiable quote--this is a "Prabhupada said". Once someone sent me a "Prabhupada said" from TKG that went against something Swami was preaching. My reply was that I don't accept "prabhupada said" quotes from TKG as authoritative. If we don't accept "prabhupada saids" from GBC's, etc. how can we accept Subal's quote as being authoritative? (I guess you will say that because it fits our thesis.)

Prema-bhakti - August 8, 2008 4:20 am

This is not a verifiable quote--this is a "Prabhupada said". Once someone sent me a "Prabhupada said" from TKG that went against something Swami was preaching. My reply was that I don't accept "prabhupada said" quotes from TKG as authoritative. If we don't accept "prabhupada saids" from GBC's, etc. how can we accept Subal's quote as being authoritative? (I guess you will say that because it fits our thesis.)

I think it would be hard not to accept "Prabhupada saids" as authoritative especially if they corroborate with SP's general teaching and mood since most of the information we have about Prabhupada and his life is "Prabhupada saids".

Vrindaranya Dasi - August 8, 2008 4:52 am

I think this has taken a silly turn. Are you suggesting that most people will throw out all the evidence? That a case can't really be made? That it is as flimsy as a thirdhand Prabhupada said quote? The hearsay charge has also become misleading. It doesn't have anything to do with whether something is a direct quote. In the legal system, hearsay is anything not said in a court of law under oath. Thus the whole Vedabase is hearsay.

Swami - August 8, 2008 5:26 am

One would have a hard time convincing everyone who reads the transcript that overall Sridhara Maharaja did not qualify his opinion. (Note: its almost clear)

I do not agree with this statement. Sridhara Maharaja did not question his own opinion. He was clear on his own opinion even with out further evidence. He said it was perhaps possible to think otherwise and gave some reasoning as to how one might do that, but his opinion remained the same. He never changed it and Narasingha Maharaja personally agreed with me on this point.

Otherwise, without a direct vedabase reference the evidence given by some of Prabhupada's disciples is circumstantial and hearsay. In other words unprovable.

Anyone who would dismiss all of the evidence presented on these grounds would be suspect. There is just too much of it from too many quarters. A clear pattern of supportive evidence for sakhya rasa emerges from Prabhupada's childhood onwards, from his students, godbrothers, and himself.

Narasingha Maharaja: “When Srila Sridhara Maharaja heard the recitation of the poem composed by our Guru Maharaja, "Prayer to the Lotus Feet of Krsna," he commented that there was indeed strong indication of our Srila Prabhupada being in sakhya-rasa. Srila Sridhara Maharaja said, "He has expressed himself, his eternal position, the acme of his aspiration. In Vrindavan he has established Balarama and Krishna and Nitai Gaura, and he is saying like that, Nitai Gaura are Krishna and Balarama. It's almost clear that he comes from that group. And now he's again there. Hare Krishna."

Such a statement by Srila Sridhara Maharaja is not to be taken lightly. A short time later there was some objection to Srila Sridhara Maharaja's referring to our Guru Maharaja as being in sakhya-rasa. Some of Srila Prabhupada's disciples for some reason took objection to Srila Sridhara Maharaja's statement. Srila Sridhara Maharaja was shocked by the immaturity of those disciples who objected. The consideration of rasa was obviously not a topic that those disciples were familiar with. Indeed their harshness in dealing with Srila Sridhara Maharaja reflected their extremely neophyte state of Krsna consciousness. At that time Srila Sridhara Maharaja made reference to the effect that because of the special empowerment of Sri Nityananda Prabhu that our Guru Maharaja might have couched his madhurya tendencies in deference to Lord Nityananda.

The idea given by Srila Sridhara Mahraja was that it is possible that our Guru Maharaja was in madhurya rasa, but out of deference to Nityananda by whose potency he was influenced for his preaching campaign, Srila Prabhupada may have veiled his madhurya sentiments. Therefore some of the sakhya influence of Nityananda Prabhu was shown outwardly, keeping madhurya in the backgound. It was not unthinkable for Srila Sridhara Maharaja to say such a thing-that our Guru Maharaja was outwardly showing sakhya influence and keeping his madhurya sentiments in the background. Certainly such is not unreasonable.

If you read the rest of his article the evidence he presents is next to nothing in comparison to evidence to the contrary. It is not even a drop compared to an ocean on the other side. Can you compare dry land to water?

Brahma Dasa - August 8, 2008 5:29 am

I think this has taken a silly turn. Are you suggesting that most people will throw out all the evidence? That a case can't really be made? That it is as flimsy as a thirdhand Prabhupada said quote? The hearsay charge has also become misleading. It doesn't have anything to do with whether something is a direct quote. In the legal system, hearsay is anything not said in a court of law under oath. Thus the whole Vedabase is hearsay.

The point I am making is that without a direct verifiable quote from Srila Prabhupada, as far as the Iskcon-related community is concerned, your arguments will remain inconclusive.

Syamasundara - August 8, 2008 6:27 am

It's still worth putting it out there, for people to at least think. Keep in mind we are not on a crusade like Syamarani and others. It would be already good if after our effort, people at large would approach the matter in their minds more openly.

Plus, does the iskcon party, or anybody who is adamant on the manjari version, have at least one quote that gives solidity to their version?

As I understand, not really, then we're even. The "opposition" won't move one inch from their stand, but the neutral people might benefit from our effort. Without counting our own purification, as Babhru said.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - August 8, 2008 6:29 am

The point I am making is that without a direct verifiable quote from Srila Prabhupada, as far as the Iskcon-related community is concerned, your arguments will remain inconclusive.

The quote of sp books being lawbooks for 10,000 years also is not in vedabase so some people can deny it. I also like that the quote was not there in vedabase and cannot be taken as absolute truth. So people can charge Babhru that you are selectively quoting Prabhupada when it suits him. There is one bhajan where prabhupada mentions "radha rani khusi habe, krsna tabe punya habe bai" , so people take it to be evidence for madhurya. rasa But the evidence for madhurya is scarce. Some devotees say that even evidence for radharan in the vedas is scarce so it does not mean that evidence is light. Similarly they argue for SP's madhurya.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - August 8, 2008 6:47 am

One more point is that the identity of some devotees ( if i am not mistaken Ramananda Raya) is different according to BVT and previous acaryas. If there is only one objective reality then both acaryas cannot be true, right?-

Gaura-Vijaya Das - August 8, 2008 7:04 am

Narsingha Maharaja has composed a whole song about how SP's guru is radharani.

As a general principle is Lord Balarama considered to be adi Guru(original guru) or is it Radharani? I just know that Radharani is the guru for madhurya rasa but is she also adi guru?

Madan Gopal Das - August 8, 2008 11:15 am

There is one bhajan where prabhupada mentions "radha rani khusi habe, krsna tabe punya habe bai" , so people take it to be evidence for madhurya.

Actually this is much more indicative of Prabhupada's sentiment as a priyanarma-sakha.

Sanga July 4, 2000
Its internal significance was brought out by Om Visnupada Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Deva Goswami Maharaja. It is very deep. Let me share it with you and elaborate upon it in brief for the sake of bringing out its significance.

In the refrain to his famous poem “A Prayer to the Lotus Feet of Krsna,” Srila Prabhupada says, taba punya habe bhai e-punya koribe jabe radharani khusi habe dhruva ati boli toma tai. Here Prabhupada negotiates with his brother-friend (bhai) Krsna. He gives Krsna moral instruction, just as Subala sakha is said to be expert in doing in Rupa Goswami's Radha Krsna gonnodesa dipika.

In the bhava of a priya narma sakha (bosom buddy), Prabhupada says, “O My dear friend Krsna, it is certain that you will attain piety if Radha is pleased with you.” Here Prabhupada says that this is as sure as the pole star (dhruva) is fixed. He tells Krsna, “Your life revolves around her.” In this way he captures Krsna's attention. Having done so in the refrain of his poem, Prabhupada then begins to bargain with his friend in the following verses.

Iskcon's translation of this text implies a much different take on the verse, that of Prabhupada's preaching to the conditioned souls, not preaching to his "bosom buddy" - Bhagavan. But that is a strange assumption since Prabhupada is addressing Krsna directly throughout the prayer:

From Iskcon song book:
kṛṣṇa taba puṇya habe bhāi

e-puṇya koribe jabe rādhārāṇī khusī habe

dhruva ati boli tomā tāi

TRANSLATION

I emphatically say to you, O brothers, you will obtain your good fortune from the Supreme Lord Kṛṣṇa only when Śrīmatī Rādhārāṇī becomes pleased with you.

But now doesn't this say a lot for the value of having Sridhar Maharaj's insight??! He is a miner of the highest spiritual conclusions. In presenting the "higher" view of this verse as Prabhupada's preaching to Krsna in bhava one would have to artfully get around this obstacle of translation/interpretation of the verse and it's source. Although when I originally heard this interpretation of the verse it came from an iskcon devotee - B.V. Madhava Maharaj!

Madan Gopal Das - August 8, 2008 11:34 am

Without a direct quote from Prabhupada the best you can do is the “Preponderance of the evidence”.

Everyone, Iskcon or otherwise accepts Prabhupada's own prayer aboard the Jaladuta... That is not a "Prabhupada said", unverifiable, etc. How much more direct can you get?

(Iskcon song book translation:)
tomāra milane bhāi ābār se sukha pāi

gocārane ghuri din bhor

kata bane chuṭāchuṭi bane khāi luṭāpuṭi

sei din kabe habe mor

TRANSLATION

O dear friend, in Your company I will experience great joy once again. In the early morning I will wander about the cowherd pastures and fields. Running and frolicking in the many forests of Vraja, I will roll on the ground in spiritual ecstasy. Oh when will that day be mine?

And those who will accept another translation of it:

From Sanga:
Once we are together, brother, I will once more feel the happiness of wandering all day long, grazing the cows. I pray for the day to come when we chase each other and wrestle in every one of Vrindavana's forests.

Devotee: On that line, once you were explaining that Bhaktivedanta Swami, his feelings were more in the sakhya rasa, because you explained that the...
Sridhara Maharaja: In his letter towards the journey, I have got, the copy is also with me, he is appealing to Krsna that my gurudeva Radharani, to fulfill her wish, or his, my gurudeva's wish, I am going to carry out his order, I am going to a foreign land to preach Krsna consciousness there. And you please come to help me, otherwise I have no such capacity as to spread Krsna consciousness. Then after it is finished I shall again join you in Vrndavana lila in sakhya rasa. We shall play, jump, and in different ways we shall be engaged with you in that sakhya rasa. It has been explained by him there. Guru has been accepted, shown there as Radharani, and he is going to carry out the order of his guru and You please come to help me, and after I have finished, again I shall join in Vrndavana lila in the cow-keeping lila in the jungle and there we shall play, we jump and dance and sometimes carry on shoulders. All this sakhya rasa lila, it is mentioned. From that it is clear to me that he is in sakhya rasa. After he finds his satisfaction there. Very earnestness it shows. Have you read that book, no?

Devotee: The poem that he wrote on the Jaladuta.

Sridhara Maharaja: Original book you have not seen? I have seen a Bengali copy, it is perhaps here, I can show you.

Devotee: No, I have not seen Bengali.

Sridhara Maharaja: You can't read Bengali? But if one reads to you, you can follow what he has writen, the thought. Perhaps you have not come in connection with that thought? Let me see, take it out, I shall have too search that booklet perhaps...

Devotee: I noticed there is a picture of the Jaladuta there, the ship.

Sridhara Maharaja: It was not originally in English, but this is a translation.

Devotee: They did make a translation but I don't believe that that translation would be as nice as your translation.

Sridhara Maharaja: No, it is not mine...

Devotee: No, I understand. This is Bhaktivedanta Swami's writing on the Jaladuta, the poem.

Devotee: (finding the poem) Sri Krsna Pada Padma Prarthana.

Devotee: I was also told that another reason was that he established the Krsna Balarama Mandir in Vrndavana.

Devotee: (reading) tumi mor cira sathi bhuliya mayar lathi/khaiyachi janma-janmantare/ayi punah e sujoga jadi hoy jagajoga/tabe pari tuhe milibare/tomara milane bhai abar se sukha pai/gocarane ghuri din bhor... Tumi mor cira sathi,

Sridhara Maharaja: You are my eternal friend, _ addressing to Krsna. Tumi mor cira sathi, that you are my eternal friend.

Devotee: bhuliya mayar lathi/khaiyachi janma-janmantare,

Sridhara Maharaja: Forgetting You, I have come to this world and I have been _ the kicks from the maya, the goddess of misconception.

Devotee: aji punah e sujoga jadi hoy jogajoga/tabe pari tuhe milibare.

Sridhara Maharaja: If You come to help me in this campaigan then after finishing this I can again join You.

Devotee: Tomare milane bhai abar se sukha pai/gocarane ghuri din bhor,

Sridhara Maharaja: When I shall be united with You again, then I shall wander along with You the whole day in keeping the cows in the forest.

Devotee: kata bane chutachuti bane khai lutaputi/sei din kabe habe mor.

Sridhara Maharaja: Running this side and that side in the jungle, in the forest. And then lutaputi ki, to fall on the ground and in different shows of play. I aspire after that day.

Devotee: Aji se subidhane tomara smarana bhelo/boro asa dakilam tai,

Sridhara Maharaja: I have got then this good chance I have got to serve my gurudeva. My heartfelt appeal to You for that reason, You please come to help me.

Devotee: ami tomara nitya-dasa tai kori eta asa,

Sridhara Maharaja: I am Your eternal servitor, so so much aspiration I have got for You.

Devotee: tumi bina anya gati nai.

Sridhara Maharaja: And that You are my only resort and no other. That portion. So after committing this service he aspires after a life in the cow-keeping lila, pastimes of Krsna, and he is appreciating that sort of service, friendly service of Krsna very much from the core of his heart, after finishing his worly preachig campaign.

Prabhupada's prayer with the natural commentary and interpretation of Pujyapada Sridhar Maharaj is the highest, most profound, completely endearing evidence. You can almost envision Prabhupada before beginning his enormous preaching campaign, meeting with Krsna. He puts his arm around the shoulder of his friend and says - "your goal is to please Radha. My gurudeva, who represents her has ordered me to do this monumental task. If you'll put some of your capital behind it then surely your desires (Radha's happiness with him) will be fulfilled." :Cow: And boy did Krsna back up that plan!!! Prabhupada knew how to motivate him! :Cow:

Swami - August 8, 2008 1:41 pm

Narsingha Maharaja has composed a whole song about how SP's guru is radharani.
As a general principle is Lord Balarama considered to be adi Guru(original guru) or is it Radharani? I just know that Radharani is the guru for madhurya rasa but is she also adi guru?

Prabhupada's guru is a hand maiden of Radha. This is accepted everywhere. How do we know this? The external evidence for this is far less than the evidence at hand in support of Prabhupada's liking for sakhya rasa. The same holds true for Sridhara Maharaja. What evidence do you have, Brahma, to support the conclusion that he is in madhurya rasa? Some heresay perhaps. Yet everyone accepts this unquestioningly. If we had the same degree of evidence in support of Prabhupada being in madhurya rasa there wold be not objections whatsoever and devotees's Vyasa-puja offering would be full of such references as would a number of their classes. So the problem here is the widespread misconception that sakhya rasa is either "lesser" and somehow unbecoming for an acarya in our lineage or not possible to attain though our lineage. These misconceptions need to be dealt with definitively.

Yes, Balarama is more readily acknowledged as the origin of guru-tattva, but Sri Radha presides of madhurya rasa.

Swami - August 8, 2008 1:53 pm

The point I am making is that without a direct verifiable quote from Srila Prabhupada, as far as the Iskcon-related community is concerned, your arguments will remain inconclusive.

Well, we are not seeking a GBC resolution! Devotees can do whatever they want with the evidence. Are we then not free to reach a conclusion on the basis of it? Are we allowed to share that opinion? I believe that many devotees will be strongly influenced by our conclusions and the tide will be turned.

As far as hearsay and the court of law comparison, I think it should be looked at more like a documentary where many people are interviewed, talking heads and hearts.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - August 8, 2008 2:10 pm

What is the origin of the story in which Radharani has sent prabhupada to the material world. Sometimes prabhupada said that his last life was a sinless one and here Narsingha Maharaja says he was sent by Radharani

Swami - August 8, 2008 2:15 pm

What is the origin of the story in which Radharani has sent prabhupada to the material world. Sometimes prabhupada said that his last life was a sinless one and here Narsingha Maharaja says he was sent by Radharani

This is imaginative nothing more. I was there when he wrote it and helped him with it. It's poetic license. However, originally the poem identified Prabhupada as masculine (he) in order to keep him in sakhya rasa despite his connection with the seva of Radha, which is of course highly compatible.

Vrindaranya Dasi - August 8, 2008 2:20 pm

The point I am making is that without a direct verifiable quote from Srila Prabhupada, as far as the Iskcon-related community is concerned, your arguments will remain inconclusive.

For the ISKCON community, there is diversity of opinions on many issues: whether the jiva fell from Vaikuntha, whether Srila Prabhupada wanted a ritvik system, whether Srila Prabhupada wanted to Srila Sridhara Maharaja to be accepted as a siksa guru, how to honor Ekasdasi, etc. Decisions are often less than rational, decided often on emotional or political lines. Is anything conclusive in that community? By conclusive do you mean a GBC resolution? Is even that conclusive in the ISKCON community?

All we can do is put the information out there and let people decide for themselves. Yes, devotees have shown deficiencies in that endeavor. But what to do? Just become babajis?

In many ways there is more evidence to support than Srila Prabhupada is in sakhya-rasa than to support the contention that he wanted Srila Sridhara Maharaja to be a siksa guru for Iskcon. Furthermore, it is hard to say how pervasive the conception of Srila Prabhupada as being in madhurya-rasa is in Iskcon. The feeling that Srila Prabhupada is in sakhya-rasa is also prominent.

Also, just because it is probably impossible to prove conclusively that Srila Prabhupada is in sakhya-rasa in the ISKCON community WITH OR WITHOUT direct quotes from Srila Prabhupada, it doesn't mean that nothing is proven or that there is no value to the endeavor. Having a strong case is very different than having no case or a weak case . And even devotees who have a personal affinity for madhurya-rasa and thus have compelling reasons to want to see Srila Prabhupada as being in madhurya-rasa too have admitted that Guru Maharaja has a strong case--and this without the whole case being presented.

Therefore, I think the important issue is whether we have a strong, balanced case. What more can one hope for these days? There are quotes from the folio, from Srila Prabhupada's song, from famous devotees in good standing in Iskcon, from the Lilamrta, from devotees outside of Iskcon, from those who have left Bhaktisiddhanta's line altogether, from Srila Prabhupada's life, his actions, the list goes on... and what what else might turn up with the publication of this booklet?

Prema-bhakti - August 8, 2008 2:27 pm

All we can do is put the information out there and let people decide for themselves.

I personally know quite a few devotees in ISKCON who through their devotion to SP and dedication to seva have developed an affinity for sakhya-rasa and have not had interest or have been swayed by the "manjari" propaganda. It is something that naturally arose from their hearts. I think they as well as others would appreciate Babhru's effort.

Vrindaranya Dasi - August 8, 2008 2:27 pm

One more point is that the identity of some devotees ( if i am not mistaken Ramananda Raya) is different according to BVT and previous acaryas. If there is only one objective reality then both acaryas cannot be true, right?-

There is the general case and then the exception that proves the rule. Furthermore, Ramananda Raya is svarupa-sakti, not jiva-sakti.

Vrindaranya Dasi - August 8, 2008 2:41 pm

Another point: Jaiva Dharma does not indicate that Brajanatha and Bijaya Kumar were seeing the svarupa of their Guru and that the Guru's svarupa is thus subjective. Bijaya Kumar "viewed Babaji Maharaja in an unique light, seeing him as Lalitadevi in person," and Brajanatha saw his Guru as a manifestation of Subala. Since a jiva cannot become an eternal associate like Lalitadevi or Subala, it is clear that what is being portrayed in this section of Jaiva Dharama is what Guru Maharaja explained as follows, "The teaching is that the disciple may be in one bhava or another and accordingly the student will see that "guru-tattva" represents one or the other for that particular disciple."

Gaura-Vijaya Das - August 8, 2008 2:42 pm

There is the general case and then the exception that proves the rule. Furthermore, Ramananda Raya is svarupa-sakti, not jiva-sakti.

But still he was seen differently by two acaryas. So everyone will support what they see through the lens of their bhava ultimately.

Vrindaranya Dasi - August 8, 2008 3:03 pm

But still he was seen differently by two acaryas.

As I already said, such is an exception that proves the rule.

So everyone will support what they see through the lens of their bhava ultimately.

How does having a different bhava dictate seeing Ramananda Raya as either Lalita or Visakha? Bhaktivinode Thakura and Kavikarnapura have the same bhava, as do Lalita and Visakha. I think Kavikarnapura also indicated that Ramananda Raya is either the priyanarma sakha Arjuna or Arjuna the Pandava. This vision obviously isn't influenced by Kavikarnapura having the bhava of a sakha. I heard it said that in a few cases different devotees see traces of the sentiments of different devotees in Krsna-lila in some of the associates in Gaura-lila. In addition to the above differences, Guru Maharaja writes that "Krsnadasa Kaviraja writes that when he is feeling separation from Radha in the mood of Krsna, Ramananda assits him, just like Subala assisted Krsna in Vrindavana when he felt the pain of separation from Radha." It's hard to sort out. Nonetheless, the general rule holds that devotees have one svarupa in Krsna-lila.

Bhrigu - August 8, 2008 3:36 pm

I think that Brahmaji is correct in stating that those who believe Srila Prabhupada to be a manjari will not be swayed by the evidence we have. They have their own arguments, most of which is not very strong from our point of view, but which they believe in. Their main point is of course that madhurya-bhava is the highest (and here they are of course quite right -- GV is since the time of Srinivasa, Narottama and Shyamananda 99% or more focused on this bhava, which even the first sources always describe as "objectively" the highest), and that almost all of Srila Prabhupada's predecessors have been in this bhava. Even among his Godbrothers, Krishnadas Babaji is perhaps alone in sakhya-rati. While this does not prove Srila Prabhupada to be like them, it does make it likely -- especially since he did not clearly go out with something else -- and demands more evidence against it than is needed for it. For this reason, I feel that a confrontational, "this is the truth on Prabhupada's svarupa" approach may not be the best.

Also, many devotees feel attraction towards madhurya-rati, and are afraid that if Srila Prabhupada is not in that bhava, does that mean that they have to give him up? (Whether or not their interest is genuine or not may not be ours to judge). I hope that this is an argument that will be dealt with in the booklet.

Vrindaranya Dasi - August 8, 2008 4:31 pm

I think that Brahmaji is correct in stating that those who believe Srila Prabhupada to be a manjari will not be swayed by the evidence we have.

Everyone agrees that the fanatical ones won't. However, those who don't have a fanatical bent have already appreciated that Guru Maharaja has made a strong case for sakhya-rasa and therefore have more respect for that position. This is all we can hope for from such devotees. But they aren't the only devotees who exist.

They have their own arguments, most of which is not very strong from our point of view, but which they believe in.

And which they have gone on a strong campaign about, influencing the thinking of many.

Their main point is of course that madhurya-bhava is the highest (and here they are of course quite right -- GV is since the time of Srinivasa, Narottama and Shyamananda 99% or more focused on this bhava, which even the first sources always describe as "objectively" the highest), and that almost all of Srila Prabhupada's predecessors have been in this bhava. Even among his Godbrothers, Krishnadas Babaji is perhaps alone in sakhya-rati. While this does not prove Srila Prabhupada to be like them, it does make it likely -- especially since he did not clearly go out with something else -- and demands more evidence against it than is needed for it.

Which is exactly what we have--a solid body of evidence. How much more clarity is needed than Srila Prabhupada directly saying he is in sakhya-rasa (to more than one person)? It is the nature of a devotee to be subdued in speaking about one's own svarupa. It is the disciples who bring out such information.

For this reason, I feel that a confrontational, "this is the truth on Prabhupada's svarupa" approach may not be the best.

Of course you're entitled to your opinion, but I wonder: do you not think we have a good case objectively speaking? That objective truth doesn't matter because people are subjectively biased? It seems to me that you are suggesting an extremely cautious approach, and I find that it just weakens a strong position. If you have a weak position, then your approach seems wise; otherwise, why take it? Is the concern that it will polarize us from Narayana Maharaja's group or some members of Iskcon?

Also, many devotees feel attraction towards madhurya-rati, and are afraid that if Srila Prabhupada is not in that bhava, does that mean that they have to give him up? (Whether or not their interest is genuine or not may not be ours to judge).

If it is true that Srila Prabhupada is in sakhya-rasa (as both Srila Sridhara Maharaja and Guru Maharaja contend), then wouldn't it be a good idea that such devoteees come to terms with this??? Their feelings, whether genuine or otherwise, aren't going to change Srila Prabhupada's sthayi-bhava in the spiritual world. Many identified with manjari-bhava based on the propaganda that Srila Prabhupada is a manjari. Perhaps some will want to reconsider. Or others in the future will feel less pressured in that direction.

Swami - August 8, 2008 4:45 pm

Also, many devotees feel attraction towards madhurya-rati, and are afraid that if Srila Prabhupada is not in that bhava, does that mean that they have to give him up? (Whether or not their interest is genuine or not may not be ours to judge). I hope that this is an argument that will be dealt with in the booklet.

Of course they don't have to give him up. Devotees who think like this don't have much real attraction to any rasa or much understanding of these matters. Perhaps this is the issue with regard to them that should be dealt with if anything.

If they have to do anything, it would be to eternally honor and love Prabhupada as their guru, even if, heaven forbid, they also needed help directly from the madhurya sector at some point. Indeed, one could make a good argument that Prabhupada himself made an arrangement for this in the person of Sridhara Maharaja, which many reject for other sectarian reasons and mundane understanding of these issues. But where does their interest in manjari-bhava come from in the first place? Think about it. It certainly does not come from Prabhupada. It all comes from siksa gurus, not directly from Prabhupada, even the interest of Gaura Govinda Maharaja. Check the vedabase for "manjari-bhava." This term is not found anywhere in Prabhupada’s books, nor is any synonym. Jadurani was only interested in sakhya rasa and saw Prabhupada in that light and even wrote about it, that is, until she met Narayana Maharaja. Will they have to go to someone else? They already have!

The example of Syamananda is there. His guru Hridaya Caitanya is in sakhya rasa, but his disciple Syamananda is in madhurya rasa. Syamananda maintained nothing but the highest respect and eternal love for his guru, as it should be.

Swami - August 8, 2008 5:08 pm

Perhaps manjari-bhava should be driven out of Iskcon in the name of chastity to Prabhupada :Rolling Eyes: Then Iskcon could claim its difference from other groups and make claims that they they have the inside track to Prabhupada on the basis of rasa, rather than on the basis of apraradh and apasiddhanta as they do now.

"Just see the beauty of sakya rasa, within which both madhurya and vastsalya are also found to directly express themselves in the form of the priyanarma sakhas and suhrid sakhas!" They could also make such claims, etc. What fun! How much nicer this position would be. Now if they really would like me to rejoin Iskcon . . .

Babhru Das - August 8, 2008 5:15 pm

I personally know quite a few devotees in ISKCON who through their devotion to SP and dedication to seva have developed an affinity for sakhya-rasa and have not had interest or have been swayed by the "manjari" propaganda. It is something that naturally arose from their hearts. I think they as well as others would appreciate Babhru's effort.

We certainly expect no GBC resolution. This business is far beyond legislation, anyway. But the devotees who find that affinity for sakhya-rati naturally dawning in their hearts are out there--have been for decades. Even in Alachua I know of several devotees with Krishna-Balarama Deities in their homes; the temple president, Chaturatma, has, among his family of shilas, Girirajas he worships as Krishna-Balarama. I haven't become close enough with any of the devotees there to ask, but I have some suspicions. My friend on the Big Island, Vidagdha Madhava, has a strong affinity for Ramachandra, but with regard to Krishna, he also feels attraction fo sakhya rasa. And, as we see in this article, devotees from the early days had that sense of Srila Prabhupada, expressed it openly, and he never censured anyone for saying such things, at least as far I can find.

Here's a teaser, from Jadurani's 1970 Vyasa-puja offering:

You are always absorbed in the loving affairs of Radha and Krsna, and if we hear from you and follow you instructions then we can also enter into the kingdom of Vrndavana. When you saw the photograph of Kartamasi in your apartment on the Bowery you told me "I like that doll," and "My desire is to be His friend." You are always thinking of Krsna, and He also cannot separate His mind from you. You are one of the Lord's dear friends in Vrndavana, who is sometimes chasing the shadows that the birds make on the ground, sometimes shouting ill names into the well, sometimes imitating the sounds of the animals, sometimes sharing Lord Krsna's laddus and kacoris and sometimes hearing Him tell jokes at lunch.

Prema-bhakti - August 8, 2008 6:19 pm

Perhaps manjari-bhava should be driven out of Iskcon in the name of chastity to Prabhupada :Rolling Eyes: Then Iskcon could claim its difference from other groups and make claims that they they have the inside track to Prabhupada on the basis of rasa, rather than on the basis of apraradh and apasiddhanta as they do now.

"Just see the beauty of sakya rasa, within which both madhurya and vastsalya are also found to directly express themselves in the form of the priyanarma sakhas and suhrid sakhas!" They could also make such claims, etc. What fun! How much nicer this position would be. Now if they really would like me to rejoin Iskcon . . .

Yes, that would be MUCH better. It's a shame that while taking darsana in Prabhupada's home of the center altar of Krsna Balarama, they still don't get his heart.

I think some devotees who actually have a genuine affinity for madhurya-rasa and who have felt some "difference" with Prabhupada and his presentation (ie. bhava) may actually appreciate such an understanding. It may explain a lot to them.

But unfortunately some of them rejected the help from the madhurya sector (siksa gurus). :huh:

Citta Hari Dasa - August 8, 2008 6:53 pm

To me Krsna-Balarama Mandira stands as one of the biggest and most compelling pieces of evidence we have. It is indeed a shame that devotees can go there and not understand SP's heart, even when Krsna-Balarama are looking them in the face from the center altar.

Another thing: it makes me wonder how devotees like Jadurani, who clearly thought of SP to be in sakhya-rasa, adjusted that in her mind to arrive her present position. Does she just discount all the evidence that made her think that way in favor of NM's preaching that it's not possible? If so then apparently NM's sentiment and subsequent preaching based on it was more compelling to her than SP's sentiment and personal example.

Rhetorical questions-- it just seems pretty bizarre to me.

Swami - August 8, 2008 7:01 pm

But unfortunately some of them rejected the help from the madhurya sector (siksa gurus). :Rolling Eyes:

My point is not really a joke, or at lest it holds to the adage that "truth is said in jest." Had they not done so and had others been mature enough the landscape would be very different and friendlier, if you will. So it seems to me that this is the direction things should go. Topics such as this one are not idle speculation. There is a real spiritual world full of sentiments and we are moving in the direction of that world, or should be. Thus this topic shoudl have more and more relevance as time goes on, and not merely in terms of the hereafter. It should play out into the present. Indeed it has great potential to harmonize rather than divide. The key is to keep the discussion within the parameters of the siddhanta and thus separate mundane emotions (especially those in spiritual garb) from spiritual emotions or the lack of them.

Swami - August 8, 2008 7:12 pm

To me Krsna-Balarama Mandira stands as one of the biggest and most compelling pieces of evidence we have. It is indeed a shame that devotees can go there and not understand SP's heart, even when Krsna-Balarama are looking them in the face from the center altar.

Another thing: it makes me wonder how devotees like Jadurani, who clearly thought of SP to be in sakhya-rasa, adjusted that in her mind to arrive her present position. Does she just discount all the evidence that made her think that way in favor of NM's preaching that it's not possible? If so then apparently NM's sentiment and subsequent preaching based on it was more compelling to her than SP's sentiment and personal example.

Rhetorical questions-- it just seems pretty bizarre to me.

It may be a case of a kanistha understanding of guru. She has not really presented NM with contrary evidence because "the guru has spoken." whereas a mature approach would have been to persistently and respectfully present the evidence giving the teacher the input he needs to make a more informed statement. Especially in this cse where she is the disciple of Prabhupaa and knows him well while NM is the siksa guru filling in. Narayana Maharaja does not know Prabhupada like Sridhara Maharaja. Any sakhya idea about SP probably caught him off guard. Seeing that his new students from Iskcon were uninformed on a number of issues he gave them the standard siddhanta with emphasis on manjari-bhava that is so characteristic of the lineage. He though they were confused, but he had no idea that there was so much evidence for Prabhupada's sakhya affinity. This is one conjecture.

Syamasundara - August 8, 2008 11:35 pm

Also, many devotees feel attraction towards madhurya-rati, and are afraid that if Srila Prabhupada is not in that bhava, does that mean that they have to give him up?

What? This would prove that serious clarification on these matters is way overdue.

If some unrefutable evidence appeared that SP is actually in madhurya-rati, it's not like I would feel dejected. First, because I still have my gurudeva :Rolling Eyes: , but mostly, this is not a game of what elite do you belong to, or some kind of transcendental high school or West Side Story.

Forgetting my impurities and present state for a split second, in ideal and at heart I am a total Nityananda/Balarama man, yet to me Srimati Radharani and all that relates to her is... God!

I don't know how to explain it better, plus the split second is over.

If one of my godsiblings expressed some leaning toward madhurya-rati, I wouldn't feel dampened by that. It's more like, "Oh you have a strong passion for banjo? I play the cello! Let's jam!"

Remember? Vrndavana, harmony?

At the same time, I do have special feelings for those godsiblings, and one goduncle that make no secret about their passion for the cow-herding lilas, and who are all in this thread, but that's also good, or at least not wrong.

We are so out of touch with our feelings, what to speak of transcendental feelings. That's the real problem. Luckily, by the mercy of Guru and Gauranga, we are attending the best feeling school. If we (both parties) were speaking from our realization, with our devotional feelings blossoming all over us, this issue would be a non-issue.

Anyway, I think we've all said pretty much the same things one time around. When are we going out? What's the status of the booklet's progress?

Syamasundara - August 8, 2008 11:48 pm

Also, many devotees feel attraction towards madhurya-rati, and are afraid that if Srila Prabhupada is not in that bhava, does that mean that they have to give him up?

And by the way, one could take offense on behalf of Nityananda Prabhu and all he represents (and those that represent him) for that kind of statement and mentality. :Rolling Eyes: :huh:

There is no limit to his mercy. heno nitai bine bhai, radha-krsna paite nai

SP is a descendent of Uddharana Datta Thakura, was empowered by Nityananda, and he can't take someone to madhurya rati?

Babhru Das - August 9, 2008 12:55 am

When are we going out? What's the status of the booklet's progress?

"I'm workin' on it . . ." --Conrad Brean

And now, back to work!

Brahma Dasa - August 9, 2008 2:13 am

While one might make a compelling case in favor of the idea that Srila Prabhupada was in sakya rasa, senior devotees using the same criteria (conjecture-hearsay-etc) will undoubtedly make their own case to support their feelings. (See Narsingha Maharaja below.) The majority however, is likely to simply feel that the whole affair is unacceptable (sahajiya). Already members of one group are considered manjari bhava sahajiyas, do we want to be thought of as the sakya bhava sahajiyas? Indeed there is something to be said for the adage—‘One should not reveal his bhajan.”

The issue has already been addressed on sanga and we freely discuss it among ourselves and to anyone who is really interested. However, publishing booklets takes everything to another level, it is in effect hoisting a flag and rallying around it. So my question is: At this time is this the important message (Prabhupada is in Sakya rasa) we should be rallying around and preaching to everyone about?

Narasingha Maharaja: In the life of our Guru Maharaja there were innumerable indications for thinking that he was connected to Krsna-lila in madhurya-rasa. We have tried to show practically, by those indications, how Srila Prabhupada is very dear to Srimati Radharani. Only a portion of those indications have been recounted in the song "Prabhupada Lila-Smarana-Mangala-Stotram." Those were as follows: (1) That Srila Prabhupada's father praying to the vaishnava-sadhus asked for their blessings that his son become the servant of Srimati Radharani. (2) That Srila Prabhupada took mantra-diksa (initiation) from Sri Saraswati Thakura (Vrsabhanavi Devi Dayita Dasa also known as Nayana-mani Manjari in his siddha-rupa). (3) That Srila Prabhupada received his most cherished instructions to print books from his Guru while they strolled along the banks of Sri Radha Kunda (the most sacred place of pilgrimage for the followers of Sri Rupa and Raghunatha dasa). (4) That Srila Prabhupada's chosen place of bhajan in Vrindavan was just behind the samadhi of Srila Rupa Goswami (Rupa Manjari). (5) That Srila Prabhupada after completing his world preaching mission returned to Vrindavana and selected Kartikka month (the month non-different from Srimati Radharani) as the time of his departure and his entrance into the eternal lilas of the Lord. (6) And lastly Srila Prabhupada manifested a great desire just a few days before his pastime of departure to go to Govardhan Hill, the eternal place of residence of the followers of Sri Rupa and Raghunatha dasa. These and other indications of Srila Prabhupada being the dear most servant of Srimati Radharani were expressed in "Prabhupada Lila-Smarana-Mangala-Stotram"

It may be said that one can not judge the rasa of a particular devotee simply by his external movements or place of residence etc. However such a statement may be taken as only partially true. Otherwise Gaudiya-vaishnavas would not choose the Holy Dhams such as Vrindavana, Navadwipa, and Jagganatha Puri as their preferred places of residence/bhajan. The prakata-lila (external movement) of the pure devotee is not necessarily devoid of aprakata-bhava (one's internal feelings of love of Krsna). Although the movements of the pure Vaishnava are certainly deeply mysterious and not easily understood, such may nonetheless give us some perspective on the level of their intimacy with the Supreme Lord.

Further biographical information that has not been mentioned in the "Prabhupada Lila-Smarana-Mangala-Stotram" indicating the intimacy of Srila Prabhupada in Radha Krsna-lila is as follows. (1) When choosing to establish his mission "The League of Devotees" at Jansi, India Srila Prabhupada chose a building known as "Radha Smarak" (Radha Memorial) to set up his offices. (2) When Srila Prabhupada went to Delhi for printing his Back to Godhead magazine he chose a residence in the Chippiwada, Radha Krsna temple. (3) When choosing a printing press to begin the publication of his life's work Srimad Bhagavatam, Srila Prabhupada chose the Radha Press in Delhi. (4) When introducing his disciples to the worship of Sri Guru, Srila Prabhupada requested us to daily sing the prayers to the spiritual master composed by Viswanatha Cakravarthi Thakura, in which the glorify the spiritual master as a servant of the divine couple in madhyura-rasa (nikunja-yuno rati-keli-siddhyai) is mentioned. (5) Srila Prabhupada's favorite bhajan was "jaya radha madhava jaya-kunja-bihari, gopi-jana-ballabha" (This song was sung whenever Srila Prabhupada gave Srimad Bhagavatam class)

Swami - August 9, 2008 3:00 am

While one might make a compelling case in favor of the idea that Srila Prabhupada was in sakya rasa, senior devotees using the same criteria (conjecture-hearsay-etc) will undoubtedly make their own case to support their feelings. (See Narsingha Maharaja below.) The majority however, is likely to simply feel that the whole affair is unacceptable (sahajiya). Already members of one group are considered manjari bhava sahajiyas, do we want to be thought of as the sakya bhava sahajiyas? Indeed there is something to be said for the adage—‘One should not reveal his bhajan.”

The issue has already been addressed on sanga and we freely discuss it among ourselves and to anyone who is really interested. However, publishing booklets takes everything to another level, it is in effect hoisting a flag and rallying around it. So my question is: At this time is this the important message (Prabhupada is in Sakya rasa) we should be rallying around and preaching to everyone about?

Narasingha Maharaja: In the life of our Guru Maharaja there were innumerable indications for thinking that he was connected to Krsna-lila in madhurya-rasa. We have tried to show practically, by those indications, how Srila Prabhupada is very dear to Srimati Radharani. Only a portion of those indications have been recounted in the song "Prabhupada Lila-Smarana-Mangala-Stotram." Those were as follows: (1) That Srila Prabhupada's father praying to the vaishnava-sadhus asked for their blessings that his son become the servant of Srimati Radharani. (2) That Srila Prabhupada took mantra-diksa (initiation) from Sri Saraswati Thakura (Vrsabhanavi Devi Dayita Dasa also known as Nayana-mani Manjari in his siddha-rupa). (3) That Srila Prabhupada received his most cherished instructions to print books from his Guru while they strolled along the banks of Sri Radha Kunda (the most sacred place of pilgrimage for the followers of Sri Rupa and Raghunatha dasa). (4) That Srila Prabhupada's chosen place of bhajan in Vrindavan was just behind the samadhi of Srila Rupa Goswami (Rupa Manjari). (5) That Srila Prabhupada after completing his world preaching mission returned to Vrindavana and selected Kartikka month (the month non-different from Srimati Radharani) as the time of his departure and his entrance into the eternal lilas of the Lord. (6) And lastly Srila Prabhupada manifested a great desire just a few days before his pastime of departure to go to Govardhan Hill, the eternal place of residence of the followers of Sri Rupa and Raghunatha dasa. These and other indications of Srila Prabhupada being the dear most servant of Srimati Radharani were expressed in "Prabhupada Lila-Smarana-Mangala-Stotram"

It may be said that one can not judge the rasa of a particular devotee simply by his external movements or place of residence etc. However such a statement may be taken as only partially true. Otherwise Gaudiya-vaishnavas would not choose the Holy Dhams such as Vrindavana, Navadwipa, and Jagganatha Puri as their preferred places of residence/bhajan. The prakata-lila (external movement) of the pure devotee is not necessarily devoid of aprakata-bhava (one's internal feelings of love of Krsna). Although the movements of the pure Vaishnava are certainly deeply mysterious and not easily understood, such may nonetheless give us some perspective on the level of their intimacy with the Supreme Lord.

Further biographical information that has not been mentioned in the "Prabhupada Lila-Smarana-Mangala-Stotram" indicating the intimacy of Srila Prabhupada in Radha Krsna-lila is as follows. (1) When choosing to establish his mission "The League of Devotees" at Jansi, India Srila Prabhupada chose a building known as "Radha Smarak" (Radha Memorial) to set up his offices. (2) When Srila Prabhupada went to Delhi for printing his Back to Godhead magazine he chose a residence in the Chippiwada, Radha Krsna temple. (3) When choosing a printing press to begin the publication of his life's work Srimad Bhagavatam, Srila Prabhupada chose the Radha Press in Delhi. (4) When introducing his disciples to the worship of Sri Guru, Srila Prabhupada requested us to daily sing the prayers to the spiritual master composed by Viswanatha Cakravarthi Thakura, in which the glorify the spiritual master as a servant of the divine couple in madhyura-rasa (nikunja-yuno rati-keli-siddhyai) is mentioned. (5) Srila Prabhupada's favorite bhajan was "jaya radha madhava jaya-kunja-bihari, gopi-jana-ballabha" (This song was sung whenever Srila Prabhupada gave Srimad Bhagavatam class)

I referred everyone to this article of Narasingha Maharaja earlier on this thread. As I said then, if this is all the evidence he has, it is next to nothing. I seriously doubt anyone will think our article inappropriate or "sahajiya," not anyone of any consequence, not any well reasoned person. If this is all you have to reply with after everything I and others involved in the project have written on this thread, I do not find your case compelling.

Anyone else?

Shreekrishna - August 9, 2008 3:22 am

I referred everyone to this article of Narasingha Maharaja earlier on this thread. As I said then, if this is all the evidence he has, it is next to nothing. I seriously doubt anyone will think our article inappropriate or "sahajiya," not anyone of any consequence, not any well reasoned person. If this is all you have to reply with after everything I and others involved in the project have written on this thread, I do not find your case compelling.

Anyone else?

{So I should be the last to post on this topic... so forgive my blatant ignorance, if any of it shows up, it's entirely unintended...}

I have read portions of the Garga Samhita, and in it it describes who the gopis were in their past lives... and how they desired to be consorts of the Lord, in incarnations where the Lord couldn't not readily fulfill this desire (eg: the Dandakaranya sages and Lord Ramachandra). So the Lord fulfilled their desires as Lord Krsna. The main point that I understood from this description was that the svarupa of the jivas is eternal, and the Lord actually appears to reciprocate, or have a relationship with each jiva, based on the svarupa (and the accompanying rasa).

So if Srila Prabhupada is in sakya rasa, as most who have posted on this topic have stated, would it matter what rasa his spiritual master was in, or the predominant rasa of the lineage? Wouldn't one's guru help one realize one's eternal svarupa, regardless of if guru and disciple has svarupas in the same rasa? From some of the posts in this topic, this seems apparent also, both in the recent and not-so-recent past in our sampradaya...

Madan Gopal Das - August 9, 2008 3:30 am

I'm out of the argument of whether to publish something... :Rolling Eyes:

In a mood of humble deference to my god-uncle Sripad Narasingha Maharaj, and without knowing the reference (time/circumstance) for the quote Brahma has cited, I find those arguments quite weak in comparison with what we have. It is quite a stretch. The several references Narasingha M. makes connecting Prabhupada to madhurya rati via a name of Radha (Radha press, Radha smarak) don't carry much weight, but they carry even less than what I just cited about Prabhupada (Nityananda-vesa) departing for America on the day after Baladeva-purnima. These are not solid arguments, just kind of cute. Regarding the argument about VCT's gurvastakam, look at the quote that started this thread; Prabhupada did not interpret gurvastakam in a solely madhurya way:

ACBSP:
sri-radhika-madhavayor apara-

madhurya-lila-guna-rupa-namnam

prati-ksanasvadana-lolupasya...

What is that? Anyway. Vande guroh sri-caranaravindam. And the spiritual master is always thinking of the pastimes of Krsna. Sri-radhika-madhavayor apara: with Srimati Radharani, His consort, and the gopis. That is always his thinking. Sometimes he's thinking about His pastimes with the cowherds boys. That means that he's engaged always thinking of Krsna, engaged in some kind of pastime.

One point that is unfortunately overlooked is the concept of Prabhupada not just being in sakhya rasa, but as a priyanarma sakha, with interest in Krsna's romantic life and connection with Srimati Radhika, though from Krsna's camp. To me that makes these trifles over sakhya/madhurya differences all the more ridiculous. A bhakta with a priyanarma sakha sentiment also has feeling for the union of Radha-Krsna, participates in Radha-Krsna lila, glorifies Radha-Krsna (jaya radha madhava, kunja bihari) and would be moved to tears of ecstasy at the thought of his friend meeting with Radha, goes to Govardhana hill and Radha-kunda where Radha-Krsna pastimes take place... Krsna has his friends, Radha has hers, and they all have these wonderfully sweet pastimes together in facilitating Radha and Krsna's union.

I'll bet Prabhupada is singing Jaya Radha Madhava here, look at that ecstasy!!!

Swami - August 9, 2008 3:35 am

One more point on Narasingha Maharaja's article: Is anyone calling him a sahajiya for publishing his article? Should it also not have been not have been published?

Syamasundara - August 9, 2008 3:42 am

1) That Srila Prabhupada's father praying to the vaishnava-sadhus asked for their blessings that his son become the servant of Srimati Radharani. (2) That Srila Prabhupada took mantra-diksa (initiation) from Sri Saraswati Thakura (Vrsabhanavi Devi Dayita Dasa also known as Nayana-mani Manjari in his siddha-rupa). (3) That Srila Prabhupada received his most cherished instructions to print books from his Guru while they strolled along the banks of Sri Radha Kunda (the most sacred place of pilgrimage for the followers of Sri Rupa and Raghunatha dasa). (4) That Srila Prabhupada's chosen place of bhajan in Vrindavan was just behind the samadhi of Srila Rupa Goswami (Rupa Manjari). (5) That Srila Prabhupada after completing his world preaching mission returned to Vrindavana and selected Kartikka month (the month non-different from Srimati Radharani) as the time of his departure and his entrance into the eternal lilas of the Lord. (6) And lastly Srila Prabhupada manifested a great desire just a few days before his pastime of departure to go to Govardhan Hill, the eternal place of residence of the followers of Sri Rupa and Raghunatha dasa.

Not like anyone needs further convincing, but:

1) That was SP's father's desire or mood, if anyone's. 2) So did Akiñcana Krsna das babaji. 5) That's also the month of Govardhana puja and Go puja, and Gopastami, and he left right between those two. 6) Govardhana is a very special place for both sakhya and srngara, which, by the way, are not incompatible, especially the end of the sakhya spectrum that is mixed with madhurya.

Madan Gopal Das - August 9, 2008 3:46 am

Go Shyamu Go!!! Word up! :Rolling Eyes:

Syamasundara - August 9, 2008 5:13 am

Since I can do nothing toward and until the publication of this booklet, I thought I'd search and memorize this verse:

śrī-gopya ūcuḥ

akṣaṇvatāḿ phalam idaḿ na paraḿ vidāmaḥ

sakhyaḥ paśūn anaviveśayator vayasyaiḥ

vaktraḿ vrajeśa-sutayor anaveṇu-juṣṭaḿ

yair vā nipītam anurakta-kaṭākṣa-mokṣam

SYNONYMS

śrī-gopyaḥ ūcuḥ — the gopīs said; akṣaṇvatām — of those who have eyes; phalam — the fruit; idam — this; na — not; param — other; vidāmaḥ — we know; sakhyaḥ — O friends; paśūn — the cows; anuviveśayatoḥ — causing to enter one forest after another; vayasyaiḥ — with Their friends of the same age; vaktram — the faces; vraja-īśa — of Mahārāja Nanda; sutayoḥ — of the two sons; anu-veṇu-juṣṭam — possessed of flutes; yaiḥ — by which; vā — or; nipītam — imbibed; anurakta — loving; kaṭa-akṣa — glances; mokṣam — giving off.

TRANSLATION

The cowherd girls said: O friends, those eyes that see the beautiful faces of the sons of Mahārāja Nanda are certainly fortunate. As these two sons enter the forest, surrounded by Their friends, driving the cows before Them, They hold Their flutes to Their mouths and glance lovingly upon the residents of Vṛndāvana. For those who have eyes, we think there is no greater object of vision.

Tough meter, but great content! I re-read this whole thread looking for this verse, as I was sure someone posted, but it wasn't so. Meanwhile I realized two things: 1. this thread has been really strong and nice since post 1; and 2. I guess the thing of me self-censoring was a joke. I was all over the place! Sorry.

Another story that I was sure was among our collection of evidence is one told by Bhagavat Dasa in the SP memories. I can't remember the beginning, but it ends with Bhagavat asking SP if he was all right, and SP saying: "I am seeing Krsna and Balarama running in the forest, and I am in ecstasy..."

Citta Hari Dasa - August 9, 2008 3:35 pm

I concur with Madan-gopal: with all due respect to Narasingha M., I find his evidence to be rather insubstantial--nothing like SP himself saying "I'm a cowherd boy." And as I was reading I also thought along the lines of what Madan said, that if we consider the priya-narma-sakhya bhava then SP's affinity for Radha-Krsna can be explained quite nicely without compromising the evidence of his absorption in sakhya.

An interesting thing to me was that all of Narasingha M's evidence is circumstantial in nature; none of it is anecdotal--probably because, as we have seen, the anecdotal evidence runs counter to his thesis. On both counts--anecdotal and circumstantial-- I think a far more compelling case is there in favor of sakhya.

After all, to support a madhurya thesis some things have to be explained: if madhurya rasa was SP's sole objective, then why are Radha-Syamasundara not on the center altar in Vrndavana? Indeed, why are Krsna-Balarama there at all? Why did he choose to build the temple in Ramana-reti--at a time when it was still a forest? Not only because the land was cheap; with SP's resourcefulness and determination certainly if he had wanted land in old Vrndavana he could have gotten it. Etc. etc.

Brahma Dasa - August 9, 2008 5:10 pm

I’m not trying to support Narsinga Maharaja’s opinion or make an argument pro or con. I am simply questioning the proposal to print a pamphlet proclaiming that Prabhupada is in Sakya rasa. It’s one thing to write something on the internet and quite another to make a hard copy to pass out. Is this what we want to do? Print a pamphlet—sell it on site—and have devotees distribute it all over the movement? Is this what we want to be known for—(we are the sakya rasa people)? Is this a tenet of the faith?

Otherwise everything that I said was true. Without a direct (verifiable) statement from Prabhupada the issue will remain in the realm of subjectivity. Senior devotees will gather their own conjecture and hearsay and write rebuttals and perhaps their own pamphlets; and the majority, including the Govinda Maharaja group, will simply proclaim the entire endeavor sahajaya.

So my question remains: Is this the important message (Prabhupada is in Sakya rasa) we should be rallying around and preaching to everyone about?

Syamasundara - August 9, 2008 5:30 pm

What is it about Raman Reti? Any lila? I can't remember...

I’m not trying to support Narsinga Maharaja’s opinion or make an argument pro or con. I am simply questioning the proposal to print a pamphlet proclaiming that Prabhupada is in Sakya rasa. It’s one thing to write something on the internet and quite another to make a hard copy to pass out. Is this what we want to do? Print a pamphlet—sell it on site—and have devotees distribute it all over the movement? Is this what we want to be known for—(we are the sakya rasa people)? Is this a tenet of the faith?

Otherwise everything that I said was true. Without a direct (verifiable) statement from Prabhupada the issue will remain in the realm of subjectivity. Senior devotees will gather their own conjecture and hearsay and write rebuttals and perhaps their own pamphlets; and the majority, including the Govinda Maharaja group, will simply proclaim the entire endeavor sahajaya.

So my question remains: Is this the important message (Prabhupada is in Sakya rasa) we should be rallying around and preaching to everyone about?

Can't wait to see the reply to that.

Prema-bhakti - August 9, 2008 6:56 pm

So my question remains: Is this the important message (Prabhupada is in Sakya rasa) we should be rallying around and preaching to everyone about?

With all due respect, as GM has stated in a previous post it is about siddhanta. In my humble opinion, GM's mission is about defending and establishing the correct Gaudiya Vaisnava siddhanta not about rallying or preaching in some fanatical way.

These types of questions you pose are very typical of groups (we all know who they are :huh: ) that do just that, rally and preach apasiddhanta ideas in the name of not being fanatical. Although they never want to engage in philosophical discussion or debate. :Rolling Eyes:

Bhrigu - August 9, 2008 7:41 pm

I symphatise with your concerns, Brahmaji, but perhaps it would be best to suspend this discussion until Babhruji has finished writing his essay. Then we can see whether or not it is about presenting the siddhanta or something else.

Prema-bhakti - August 9, 2008 10:25 pm

One point that is unfortunately overlooked is the concept of Prabhupada not just being in sakhya rasa, but as a priyanarma sakha, with interest in Krsna's romantic life and connection with Srimati Radhika, though from Krsna's camp. To me that makes these trifles over sakhya/madhurya differences all the more ridiculous. A bhakta with a priyanarma sakha sentiment also has feeling for the union of Radha-Krsna, participates in Radha-Krsna lila, glorifies Radha-Krsna (jaya radha madhava, kunja bihari) and would be moved to tears of ecstasy at the thought of his friend meeting with Radha, goes to Govardhana hill and Radha-kunda where Radha-Krsna pastimes take place... Krsna has his friends, Radha has hers, and they all have these wonderfully sweet pastimes together in facilitating Radha and Krsna's union.

Nice point, Madan!!

More than being concerned about rallying and preaching perhaps we should be more concerned that the idea that a true Rupanuga can only be situated in manjari bhava is being propagated widely. Such a misunderstanding has deep ramifications to followers of Srila Prabhupada.

Madan Gopal Das - August 10, 2008 3:11 am

Is this what we want to be known for—(we are the sakya rasa people)?

By making a well researched argument about Prabhupada's svarupa, how are we advertising that "we are the sakhya rasa people?" This is about Prabhupada and the indications he himself gave about his spiritual sentiments. I imagine that GM's mission will continue to be thought of as a well researched, mature, insightful group that is not ruled by sentimentalism. Bhakti - Vedantists. People with philosophical knowledge used to back up finely tuned spiritual sentiment. Far from sahajiya! We are not even talking about us... we are talking about a famous acarya, our guru/param guru, who so many groups have respect and admiration for. Why would this be about us? Maybe your fear is that we are going on a campaign to preach sakhya rasa as the way, the truth and the light, as the highest rasa, and you are only cool if you are into it. :Rolling Eyes: But you know this group better than that...

Dogs may bark, but this is a big 'ol caravan of evidence - even verifiable quotes(!) that is gonna keep on rollin'.

Madan Gopal Das - August 10, 2008 3:43 am

Use all of Narasingha Maharaj's evidence of Prabhupada's connection with Vraja; Govardhan, etc as evidence not for madhurya, but for sakhya rasa and don't forget this important one - Prabhupada's last translations of Srimad-Bhagavatam being the verses of Brahma-vimohana lila.

TKG's diary:
And so Pradyumna began to read. Sometimes Prabhupāda would ask for the tīkas [commentaries]of different ācāryas. And he would ask Pradyumna to translate word for word. And sometimes Prabhupāda would correct. And sometimes he would ask Jayadvaita to read Kṛṣṇa book. The verses described Lord Kṛṣṇa's pastime of stealing of the calves and cowherd boys by Lord Brahmā. And Śrīla Prabhupāda very slowly began to speak the purports. It was an amazing scene. We gathered around Prabhupāda's bedside, as he gave the immortal nectar of Bhāgavatam at the point of death.

Madan Gopal Das - August 10, 2008 3:59 am

Some sourcing of counter-arguments which are easy to resolve and dismiss:

Prabhupada Appreciation - Satsvarupa Maharaj:
There are some prevalent speculations about Śrīla Prabhupāda’s rasa, but Prabhupāda never really addressed them. Was Prabhupāda a cowherd boy? While still on the Jaladuta, he wrote that he was thinking of Kṛṣṇa and frolicking in the fields. Therefore, one of his Godbrothers said that Prabhupāda was in the sakhya-rasa. Some of that Godbrother’s disciples heard this and said that this meant that our Prabhupāda was in a lesser rasa.

Keśava Mahārāja’s disciple, Nārāyaṇa Mahārāja, spoke about this on Śrīla Prabhupāda’s Vyāsa-pūjā in 1986. He said that Prabhupāda used to particularly chant “Śrī Rūpa-mañjarī-pada” when he lived near Rūpa Gosvāmī’s samādhi. Because Prabhupāda was very fond of Rūpa Gosvāmī, and Rūpa Gosvāmī was definitely in the mādhurya-rasa, “Śrīla Prabhupāda certainly knows the mādhurya-rasa.” (Guru Reform Notebook, SDG ) He added that Vaiṣṇava sannyāsa is meant for concentration of gopī-bhava.

Some of Prabhupāda’s disciples have found evidence in Prabhupāda’s activities and statements that he was indeed in the cowherd boy rasa, and they are happy to think of him like this. They remind us that Prabhupāda installed Kṛṣṇa-Balarāma Deities on the main altar in Vṛndāvana, and that he would sometimes speak of his intimate desire to be with the cowherd boys and share Kṛṣṇa’s lunch. (Śrīla Prabhupāda-līlāmṛta)

But Śrīla Prabhupāda installed Rādhā-Kṛṣṇa Deities worldwide and taught the mādhurya-rasa as the highest. His complete competence to teach us mādhurya-rasa is evidenced by the Śrī Śrī Gurv-aṣṭaka verse (5), “The spiritual master is very dear because he is expert in assisting the gopīs, who at different times make different tasteful arrangements for the perfection of Rādhā and Kṛṣṇa’s conjugal loving affairs within the groves of Vṛndāvana. I offer my most humble obeisances unto the lotus feet of such a spiritual master.” Jayādvaita Swami once asked Prabhupāda the meaning of this verse. How should we understand that the spiritual master is assisting the gopīs? Prabhupāda replied that the spiritual master is actually doing this service. Jayādvaita Swami then asked if any spiritual master is doing it. Prabhupāda said, “Only if he is in the line of conjugal rasa.” (He Lives Forever, SDG, p.39)

We should not be curious about Śrīla Prabhupāda’s rasa. He took it that we do not know about these things and he did not address it. Once, Upendra asked Prabhupāda about rasa: “Unless we know the rasa of our guru, and unless his rasa is the same as ours, how could he teach us about rasa?” Prabhupāda replied that the duty of the spiritual master is to train his disciples. If, for example, an expert mathematician was to teach a lower class, he could teach English, although mathematics is his specialty. When the student comes to the perfectional stage of training, he then realizes his position. “That special qualification reveals from the higher stage … This is useless talks in the preliminary stage… . “ (Letter, 68-11-19)

Syamasundara - August 10, 2008 4:48 am

:Rolling Eyes: Of course he was teaching srngara is the highest, but we are talking of sthayi-bhava. Go tell someone who is fond of milk chocolate that dark chocolate is by far superior and for real connoisseurs...

Swami - August 10, 2008 6:19 pm

Brahma dasa wrote

I’m not trying to support Narsinga Maharaja’s opinion or make an argument pro or con. I am simply questioning the proposal to print a pamphlet proclaiming that Prabhupada is in Sakya rasa. It’s one thing to write something on the internet and quite another to make a hard copy to pass out. Is this what we want to do? Print a pamphlet—sell it on site—and have devotees distribute it all over the movement? Is this what we want to be known for—(we are the sakya rasa people)? Is this a tenet of the faith?

Madana Gopala has answered your second question. As to the first question, there is little difference between circulating an article in print from circulating on on the internet, except for the fact that one circulated on the internet will be distributed more widely. I think you got that backwards.

Otherwise everything that I said was true. Without a direct (verifiable) statement from Prabhupada the issue will remain in the realm of subjectivity. Senior devotees will gather their own conjecture and hearsay and write rebuttals and perhaps their own pamphlets; and the majority, including the Govinda Maharaja group, will simply proclaim the entire endeavor sahajaya.

Everything you have said is not ture. Much of it is speculation as to how others will react. An example of this is the question above. On the other hand, everything I said was true. It is provable by external and internal evidence. We are presenting the external evidence, and there is no body of such evidence to the contrary that remotely compares. Others have presented their evidence and we will present ours. We don't expect everyone to agree. Devotees already have their own opinions. We are simply providing support for one of them that has been lacking. As for Govinda Maharaja's group, they say that Prabhupada is in sakhya rasa, as did Sridhara Maharaja. You seem confused. And by the way, what does Govinda Maharaja's group say about us/me at the present time that I should be so concerned about their opinion of me?

So my question remains: Is this the important message (Prabhupada is in Sakya rasa) we should be rallying around and preaching to everyone about?

Already answered previously, as Prema-bhakti has pointed out.

Swami - August 10, 2008 6:36 pm

Satsvarupa Maharaja wote as cited by Madan Gopala,

There are some prevalent speculations about Śrīla Prabhupāda’s rasa, but Prabhupāda never really addressed them. Was Prabhupāda a cowherd boy? While still on the Jaladuta, he wrote that he was thinking of Kṛṣṇa and frolicking in the fields. Therefore, one of his Godbrothers said that Prabhupāda was in the sakhya-rasa. Some of that Godbrother’s disciples heard this and said that this meant that our Prabhupāda was in a lesser rasa.

This is not correct in that it was disciples of Prabhupada that took objection to the insight of Sridhara Maharaja and reasoned that it meant that Prabhupada was in a lesser rasa, as if to say that the insight of SM amounted to demeaning Prabhupada.

Babhru Das - August 10, 2008 6:47 pm

:Rolling Eyes: Of course he was teaching srngara is the highest, but we are talking of sthayi-bhava. Go tell someone who is fond of milk chocolate that dark chocolate is by far superior and for real connoisseurs...

Erp! I think I have done that from time to time! :Shocked:

Milk chocolate has to be really good quality to get me excited. But I have considerable respect for the milk-chocolate lovers, too, and wouldn't want to spoil their pleasure.

Babhru Das - August 10, 2008 6:55 pm

As to the first question, there is little difference between circulating an article in print from circulating on on the internet, except for the fact that one circulated on the internet will be distributed more widely. I think you got that backwards.

I sure concur in this statement. If we print it, there's some extra trouble and expense, but everyone would have to buy a copy from us. But if we made it available electronically, even charging for a download, it would still be copied and pasted in who knows how many emails and on Lord knows how many Web sites. Either way, we're planting a virus (a meme, in the much-reviled Dr. Dawkins' language), but the electronic meme would be virulent.

The problems you foresee, Brahmaji, don't worry me too much, although I appreciate your raising these concerns. The focus is on examining siddhanta and glorifying Srila Prabhupada. Some members of one group or another may not be happy to read this, but I think we'll see that in time, as the meme spreads, more devotees will see the essence and be moved by that.

Swami - August 10, 2008 7:28 pm

By the way, it is mention in Radha shasranama

subala nyasta sarupya subala priti-tosita

" (Radha is she) who has bestowed a form equal to her own to Subala and who is is very fond of Subala."

Some Krsna-sakhas reason that the implication of "subala nyasta sarupya" is that when Radha wants to taste sakhya rasa she manifests as Subala. Sounds good. :Rolling Eyes:

Syamasundara - August 11, 2008 1:39 am

Some Krsna-sakhas reason that the implication of "subala nyasta sarupya" is that when Radha wants to taste sakhya rasa she manifests as Subala. Sounds good. :Rolling Eyes:

Oh, I thought it was a granted thing, like with Balarama/Ananga manjari.

Hah, see, everybody wants to relish both and down here people are all thinking in terms of "one or the other", and "which is best".

Fools.

Syamasundara - August 11, 2008 1:41 am

By the way, what are we going to do with the printed booklets? How are they going to get circulated?

Vrindaranya Dasi - August 11, 2008 1:57 am

I’m not trying to support Narsinga Maharaja’s opinion or make an argument pro or con. I am simply questioning the proposal to print a pamphlet proclaiming that Prabhupada is in Sakya rasa. It’s one thing to write something on the internet and quite another to make a hard copy to pass out. Is this what we want to do? Print a pamphlet—sell it on site—and have devotees distribute it all over the movement? Is this what we want to be known for—(we are the sakya rasa people)? Is this a tenet of the faith?

Your extreme language and predictions--"proclaiming," "have devotees distribute it all over the movement," "the sakha rasa people," and "tenet of the faith" sounds like a scare tactic. Consider the loaded nature of your question, "Is this a tenet of the faith?" Is the implication, "Will someone be considered unfaithful by our group if they don't believe that Srila Prabhupada is in sakhya-rasa? And further: do we want to put up more barriers with people? All together, it sounds like you are trying to paint a picture of our group being ostracized at the margins of devotional society, the weirdos who don't fit in.

Honestly, it doesn't speak to me. For one thing I don't really care what the other devotee groups think of us. The Sridharas, the sakhya rasa people, the liberals...great! At least we're not a one-platform group, and what nice things to be identified with! Further, I don't foresee reactions any more extreme than the response to Guru Maharaja's Gita or the Gadadhara debate. Guru Maharaja has already taken a position on so many controversial topics: Srila Sridhara Maharaja, women, homosexuality, relative and absolute statements in the scripture, and so on. His position on the sakhya-rasa issue has also been expressed. The power of all the evidence being put together in one place may well draw a response, but I see that as a good thing. Consider this statement about Simone de Beauvoir's landmark book: "The Second Sex has and continues to attract the kind of ferocious, productive debate which only characterizes texts of the utmost importance."

The concern about how we will be viewed brings up something that I observe time and time again on Tattva-viveka: two angles of viewing an issue--from the vantage point of human relationships and that of whether or not something is true, or in simplified terms, relationships or siddhanta. Back and forth these two viewpoints will go because often they are diametrically opposed. Here you have been voicing a concern about how the sakhya-rasa issue will affect our relationships with the larger devotee community. That the vantage point is relationships and not siddhanta is clear: "I'm not [making] an argument pro or con" and "Is this what we want to be known for [i.e. will our relationships change in a bad way?]" In my vision, if you put siddhanta above relationships, true relationships will fall into line naturally and false relationships will do you a favor and fall away. Having it all, siddhanta and close relationships with everyone, is unrealistic in my opinion. I'm sure others will disagree.

Otherwise everything that I said was true. Without a direct (verifiable) statement from Prabhupada the issue will remain in the realm of subjectivity. Senior devotees will gather their own conjecture and hearsay and write rebuttals and perhaps their own pamphlets; and the majority, including the Govinda Maharaja group, will simply proclaim the entire endeavor sahajaya.

Please forgive me for pointing this out, but you have already contented that a direct, verifiable statement from Prabhupada hasn't been made (more than once) and predicted that the majority of devotees will proclaim the endeavor sahajiya. Madana-gopala answered the first and Guru Maharaja replied to the second. Further, there were numerous comments and questions about your post on acceptable evidence that you didn't respond to. Now you are making the same statement again. This appears circular. If you didn't accept Madana-gopala's reasoning, why not point out the reason? We'll get nowhere just restating our positions.

So my question remains: Is this the important message (Prabhupada is in Sakya rasa) we should be rallying around and preaching to everyone about?

Here again I'm whiffing a scare tactic based on distortion (but nonetheless enjoying the discussion :Rolling Eyes: ). You ask not whether this is "an" important message, but is it "the" important message. This I assume ties in to the prediction of being the sakhya-rasa people. DO WE WANT TO BE THE SAKHYA-RASA PEOPLE FOR NOW AND INTO ETERNITY? Actually, yes. But seriously, I think this is extreme and won't wipe out our multi-faceted image. In fact, being the sakhya-rasa people can be seen as a subset of being the Sridharas, as it was Sridhara Maharaja who originally started the discussion on Srila Prabhupada's sthayi-bhava. Narayana Maharaja and Narasingha Maharaja have responded. We are answering those responses and giving more evidence in favor of Srila Sridhara Maharaja's personal opinion. Let the great discussion continue, and let the truth prevail!

Syamasundara - August 11, 2008 2:17 am

I understand Brahma's caution and concerns, but I am really surprised because years ago, in his house in San Francisco we were talking with GM one morning and he said that he must be some Arjuna-like cowherd boy. :Rolling Eyes:

Babhru Das - August 11, 2008 2:30 am

Frankly, if this didn't generate discussion, I think we should be disappointed. (It would mean we hadn't said anything interesting--or, in other words, that we hadn't really said anything.) This is how intellectual work is carried out. A scholar has a question, does some research, talks with colleagues, does more research, some writing, back and forth. Then she or he will propose presenting a paper, which will make part of his or her work public, at a conference. The point is to get responses, to see what seems to work and what needs yet more work. This goes on and includes submissions to peer-reviewed journals for more feedback, first from the editors, then from the other scholars who read them. Then, eventually a book, and yet more feedback. And they look for the negative responses as eagerly as the praise, because it makes the work better, and because the conversation is part of the point. I remember seeing a program on PBS about mathematician Andrew Wiles, who found a proof for Fermat's last theorem, something no one had been able to do for almost 400 years. He decided as a young boy that he would do so, and, after getting a gig at Princeton, spent seven years doing nothing else--in secret. When he found a proof (it was almost as if it were a revelation, even mystical), he presented it at a conference under a disguised title (he wanted it to be a big surprise), but rumors swirled at the conference that this was what he was up to. It made a big splash. But when he submitted his work for publication in a journal, the reviewers found flaws in his work. He was crestfallen at first, but he went back to work and found the real deal. He chokes up when he talks about the moment he saw it. My main point is that the responses were actually essential to his pulling off his childhood dream.

So if this article gets folks talking, hallelujah! At least they'll be talking about something substantial. Moreover, I specifically invite discussion, especially from anyone who thinks they have a comparable body of evidence that comes to a different conclusion. And there won't be any sort of publication until we figure it's pretty tight.

Actually, we could say that I don't argue very forcefully that Srila Prabhupada is without any doubt in sakhya rasa; the case needed only to be shaped, and the evidence makes its own case. As Vrindaranya says, so much from our Swami has created controversy: Sri Guru-parampara, Bhagavad-gita, so many of the Sangas. So what's new? A few years ago, we were branded the Vraja-gita people. Before that, Swami (and others among us, ahem!) were labeled as followers of Sridhara Maharaja. Now we'll be identified with Prabhupada and Sridhara Maharaja because we take them at their word regarding Srila Prabhupada's relationship with Krishna. I can handle that.

As for Vrindranya's contention about relationships vs. siddhanta as a dichotomy, I'm not convinced there isn't a third position. Most dichotomies can be broken down one way or another, through some sort of philosophical or rhetorical process (Kenneth Burke's perspective by incongruity is one example). But that's something we may continue to discuss in the future. But as far as this issue is concerned, I think we can present our conclusion without compromise and in a way that a broad range of devotees may be at least able to consider with an open mind (or, even better, with an open heart). At least that's my intention.

Vrindaranya Dasi - August 11, 2008 2:34 am

I'm surprised too, Brahma. As the Sanga editor you seem to seek out controversy, why the sudden faint-heartedness? :Rolling Eyes:

Syamasundara - August 11, 2008 2:51 am

Lately this thread has been reminding me of the mock verbal fights between the gopis taking Radha's side and the cowherds defending Krsna. There is no end to the sweetness...

By the way, there is a proof of utmost love and fidelity right there! How can you defend someone like the son of Nanda? And yet, they stand up for him and find a way and with so much fervor.

Vrindaranya Dasi - August 11, 2008 2:55 am

As for Vrindranya's contention about relationships vs. siddhanta as a dichotomy, I'm not convinced there isn't a third position. Most dichotomies can be broken down one way or another, through some sort of philosophical or rhetorical process (Kenneth Burke's perspective by incongruity is one example). But that's something we may continue to discuss in the future.

I guess postmodernism is the first attempt, but absolute truth went out the window.

Vrindaranya Dasi - August 11, 2008 3:53 am

And Goloka Vrindavana is the synthesis.

Citta Hari Dasa - August 11, 2008 4:49 am

I'm with you, Vrindaranya: the truth is far more important than what other groups think of us. Sridhara Maharaja was willing to sit alone in the jungle with the truth, why not us? Eventually people who respect such integrity and recognize the truth will gather around, just as they did with him. Meanwhile, we go on with our practice and moving toward realizing these deep internal relationships for ourselves. And if no one comes, what's the loss? At least we've done our part to put the truth out there for those who are willing to examine the evidence objectively--and hopefully come to a subjective bias as a result!

Prahlad Das - August 11, 2008 8:16 am

This is imaginative nothing more. I was there when he wrote it and helped him with it. It's poetic license. However, originally the poem identified Prabhupada as masculine (he) in order to keep him in sakhya rasa despite his connection with the seva of Radha, which is of course highly compatible.

What was your position then?

Swami - August 11, 2008 12:21 pm

What was your position then?

The same as it is now. When I say imaginative I do not mean it be pejorative. There is room for "imagining" such, in that some of us see our gurudeva, Srila Prabhupada, as a nitya-siddha. So the idea that he descended from Goloka can be spoken of in an imaginative way. "Radharana told her dearmost to descend. . ." I answered like this in response to Garua Vijaya, who had asked the history of this, since he had heared, as he wrote, that Prabhupada had referred to his previous life.

Otherwise when we wrote this poem it was about tracing the influence of Radha in Prabhupada's life. Your Guru Maharaja had the idea and I helped him put it into shape. At the time we agreed to speak of Prabhupada in the masculine because of the realizations of Sridhara Maharaja and those of my own.

Your Guru Maharaja is strongly influenced by madhurya rasa. Naturally he will feel this is coming from Prabhupada, and there is some truth to that in my opinion, for a priyanarma sakha has sankula rati, in this case a mixture of sakhya and madhurya. This gives him two group leaders, one in sakhya and one in madhurya. Of course your Guru Maharaja is also influenced by Sridhara Maharaja, who is in manjari-bhava. So in our group both sides are there in different ways for different devotees and the same holds true for Narasingha Maharaja's group. If anyone focuses only on Prabhupada's madhurya side, that person (a very advanced devotee) may see Prabhupada initially as being only in madhurya. Indeed, it is difficult to get away from madhurya in Gaudiya sampradaya. It is all pervasive.

Vrindaranya Dasi - August 11, 2008 12:33 pm

I'm with you, Vrindaranya: the truth is far more important than what other groups think of us. Sridhara Maharaja was willing to sit alone in the jungle with the truth, why not us? Eventually people who respect such integrity and recognize the truth will gather around, just as they did with him. Meanwhile, we go on with our practice and moving toward realizing these deep internal relationships for ourselves. And if no one comes, what's the loss? At least we've done our part to put the truth out there for those who are willing to examine the evidence objectively--and hopefully come to a subjective bias as a result!

This is a very important point. You come to purified subjectivity through siddhanta. Thus the difference between the subjectivity of postmodernism (resulting in tamo-guna) and that of Goloka Vrindavana (suddha-sattva).

Swami - August 11, 2008 2:26 pm

Regarding madhurya in Prabhupada, note that Rupa Goswami has called the priyanarma sakha bhava "sakhi-bhava," highlighting the madhurya aspect of it. Perhaps we should bring this out more in out article, as it may serve to help harmonize. It also allows for seeing SP in light of madhurya to be something more than mere material sentiment unsupported by siddhanta, albeit an incomplete picture.

Babhru Das - August 11, 2008 4:59 pm

And Goloka Vrindavana is the synthesis.

Zing! Perfecto. Well played.

Citta Hari Dasa - August 11, 2008 5:23 pm

This is a very important point. You come to purified subjectivity through siddhanta. Thus the difference between the subjectivity of postmodernism (resulting in tamo-guna) and that of Goloka Vrindavana (suddha-sattva).

Well said! As GM has said many times, first the tattva (siddhanta), then bhava (purified subjectivity).

A very important point indeed, which more devotees need to understand, particularly those devotees who imagine themselves to occupy a spiritually subjective position (or inordinately try to emulate devotees who genuinely do)-- as we have seen in a certain group that likes to champion the idea that Gaudiya sampradaya is only about madhurya rasa.

Babhru Das - August 11, 2008 5:57 pm

This is a very important point. You come to purified subjectivity through siddhanta. Thus the difference between the subjectivity of postmodernism (resulting in tamo-guna) and that of Goloka Vrindavana (suddha-sattva).

I agree with this absolutely and postmodernly. The problem with the subjectivity we see most often born of postmodern influences is the lack of good association, the dearth of useful guidance. I guess the nihilistic existentialism seen in those such as Camus and Sartre is a reaction to modernism. But postmodern influences also free thinkers up so they may be able to hear higher--or, perhaps, real--truth. For many years I used semiotics as the primary critical-thinking perspective in my second-semester composition classes, hoping to rattle some cages, break down a few students' faith in materialism. Of course, the synthesis would require a devotional follow-up, which I only occasionally as able to do. But I did get to do it sometimes.

Also, Drutakarma's approach to the history of science is, at least in many ways, influenced and enabled by postmodern thought. His conclusion is Krishna. I don't agree with a lot of what he does in the meantime, especially outside his science stuff, in the realm of ISKCON policy, and I know that he often knows better than what he says and writes publicly in that regard, but the mechanism of his approach stems from postmodern ideas. So I guess postmodernism, like TV, isn't inherently bad (Jerry Mander's case against TV notwithstanding); much depends on the context.

But I digress . . .

Prahlad Das - August 12, 2008 4:43 am

I don't think this has been posted yet. Its a discussion between Prabhupada and his disciple Hrsikesananda.

HD: Gurudev, what about rupanuga bhakti. What is the eternal relationship

between us (disciples) and you?

ACBSP: (Prabhupada quotes the 2nd half of sloka 6 of Gurvastaka) Guru is

serving under his master and you all can do likewise. In Nitya-lila every

devotee thinks like that, that my master is the most dear to Radha-Krsna.

HD: So that means that my relationship with you is eternal, that it will

continue in Nitya-lila?

ACBSP: Yes.

HD: As manjaris?

ACBSP: Down to sakhya.

HD: But for 'Rupanugas' isn't it always manjari-bhava?

ACBSP: That is the highest; but in the spiritual world there is no

such distinction.

I am glad that you posted this. There seems to be an orientation here as to how to deal with this "issue".

Empirical evidence (or the lack thereof[abhava praman?]), as you wrote in your response on the Christian web site Culture Watch, "need not render belief in God (or Godhead, in this regard) unreasonable."

You had also written a nice article on VNN entitled Komal Sraddha to Guru Nistha in which you've said, "My point is that however strong our arguments are, there are counter arguments to them. We will see ours as correct and definitive because of our faith, as we should. Faith is not less than reason. It is greater than reason, as it has the power to reveal the whole truth. Therefore before we think that the logic of our side on any issue is definitive in and of itself, and march out to conquer the world with it, only to find equally well reasoned arguments on the other side of the fence, we would do well to understand that the basis of our knowing is faith, divine experience in connection with a real sadhu. Otherwise, when reason fails to satisfy the opposition, or one cannot answer to opposing logic, one's 'komala sraddha' can be damaged."

On another note I've noticed many references to Vaishnavas being outside this direct Sanga indicating that there is a heterogeneous aspect to Vaishnavism.

It is wonderful to see Srila Prabhupada intimating to his disciples in such a regard as this thread illuminates. and yet I have to wonder...

Is it true to say that those who feel Srila Prabhupada is acting as a manjari are simply doing so out of sentiment?

What are the qualities of a manjari that make Srila Prabhupada's being portrayed as such to be rasa-abhasa?

Are all manjaris shy and soft-spoken with no taste for laddus or vira rasa? Couldn't they also long to be with Krsna tending the cows? I've heard that each looks at the other with a sort of jealousy.

Another question... It was mentioned that there are songs for cultivation of a particular bhava. Is our eternal position something we cultivate or something which becomes revealed?

Although there is much evidence to allow for the revelation of Srila Prabhupada in sakhya lila, it seems that there is also some allowance for him to be revealed in madhurya lila as well given Srila Shridhar Maharaj's statement. The priyanarma position harmonizes the apparent "opposing" views.

Bijaya Kumara Das - August 12, 2008 6:21 am

the post of the discussion is what I would have also concluded.

" but in the spiritual world there is no

such distinction."

Swami - August 13, 2008 8:47 pm

I am glad that you posted this. There seems to be an orientation here as to how to deal with this "issue".
Empirical evidence (or the lack thereof[abhava praman?]), as you wrote in your response on the Christian web site Culture Watch, "need not render belief in God (or Godhead, in this regard) unreasonable."

You had also written a nice article on VNN entitled Komal Sraddha to Guru Nistha in which you've said, "My point is that however strong our arguments are, there are counter arguments to them. We will see ours as correct and definitive because of our faith, as we should. Faith is not less than reason. It is greater than reason, as it has the power to reveal the whole truth. Therefore before we think that the logic of our side on any issue is definitive in and of itself, and march out to conquer the world with it, only to find equally well reasoned arguments on the other side of the fence, we would do well to understand that the basis of our knowing is faith, divine experience in connection with a real sadhu. Otherwise, when reason fails to satisfy the opposition, or one cannot answer to opposing logic, one's 'komala sraddha' can be damaged."

I think that you have to differentiate between the general and specific in this case. The statements of mine you cite above refer to faith in general, faith in God, or faith in Gaudiya Vaisnavism. However with regard to specifics, such as a particular Vaisnavas sthayi-bhava, one cannot say that this is ruled by the faith of others. It is an objective truth. The Vaisnavas sthayi-bhava is not dependent upon anyones faith but his or her own faith.

We do not need empirical evidence to substantiate the existence of God. God is realized through faith. However, God's existence is not relative to our faith. If someone does not believe in God, does that mean that God does not exist?

Divine faith is greater than mundane reasoning. But divine faith has its own reasoning, divine reasoning or sastra-yukti.

This discussion involves sastra-yukti, and thus reaching conclusions that can be supported by revelation. For example, someone has said that all Gaudiya acaryas must be in manjari-bhava, and they have tried to support this with references and spiritual logic. This position has been answered with opposing evidence and spiritual logic. So here one has to look at the spiritual evidence and reasoning and make a decision. One cannot merely say "Faith transcends reason as a means of knowing and thus I do not care for your evidence, I believe otherwise" and appear credible in spiritual circles.

Babhru Das - August 13, 2008 10:21 pm

BTW, I have Harsharani's poem described by Malati and Govinda dasi. Thought I'd share it with family. When Srila Prabhupada heard this poem, he said, "She has become advanced. We should print this in our BTG." They did print it in 1968.

Dear Swamiji

I offer my respects unto the Lotus

Feet of my Spiritual Master,

Who is always herding cows

In Goloka Vrindaban with His

Dearmost Friend, Krishna.

Sometimes He is running barefoot

Through the forest chasing cows

And sometimes He is hiding behind

A tree waiting for Krishna to

Return with the spoils from

Mother Yasoda's butter pots.

I offer my respects unto the Lotus

Feet of my Spiritual Master, Who is

Always thinking of what He can

Do in service of His Dearmost

Friend Krishna and never wanting

Anything in return.

Harsharani Devi Dasi

Swami - August 14, 2008 2:37 am

BTW, I have Harsharani's poem described by Malati and Govinda dasi. Thought I'd share it with family. When Srila Prabhupada heard this poem, he said, "She has become advanced. We should print this in our BTG." They did print it in 1968.

Dear Swamiji

I offer my respects unto the Lotus

Feet of my Spiritual Master,

Who is always herding cows

In Goloka Vrindaban with His

Dearmost Friend, Krishna.

Sometimes He is running barefoot

Through the forest chasing cows

And sometimes He is hiding behind

A tree waiting for Krishna to

Return with the spoils from

Mother Yasoda's butter pots.

I offer my respects unto the Lotus

Feet of my Spiritual Master, Who is

Always thinking of what He can

Do in service of His Dearmost

Friend Krishna and never wanting

Anything in return.

Harsharani Devi Dasi

This evidence is far from hearsay. The fact that Prabhupada wanted it printed is evidenced by the fact that it was printed. Or in the very least we know that it was offered to him and printed in his magazine in 1968 at a time when the movement was very small. Does anyone really think that it was printed and Prabhupada was unaware of it? Or that he would have disapproved of it? And what does it say? Is there any doubt about that? How can anyone refute this kind of evidence? Are there any reasonable arguments?

Prahlada has asked if Radha might not desire at times to cowherd with Krsna, as if to say that Prabhupada's approval of such poems, his expressed desires to cowherd with Krsna etc. represent nothing more than a secondary interest in sakhya such as is voiced by Radha from time to time. But the evidence shows that these sentiments of Prabhupada's are not the exception among innumerable sentiments expressed for manjari-bhava. There are no sentiments expressed for manjari-bhava. None. Furthermore, although Radha may on rare occasions express such sentiments, her maidservants do not.

If just one piece of evidence of this nature were to appear in another sect, it would be considered conclusive in terms of external evidence, and the disciples would then proceed to seek confirmation from within. End of story.

Swami - August 14, 2008 2:45 am

Although there is much evidence to allow for the revelation of Srila Prabhupada in sakhya lila, it seems that there is also some allowance for him to be revealed in madhurya lila as well given Srila Shridhar Maharaj's statement. The priyanarma position harmonizes the apparent "opposing" views.

Yes, and priyanarma sakhas are just that, harmonizers. Harmonists, to make up a word. That is what they do. No harm in that.

Syamasundara - August 14, 2008 3:15 am

This evidence is far from hearsay. The fact that Prabhupada wanted it printed is evidenced by the fact that it was printed.

Right. It's not that he appreciated the sentiment of a very young and inexpert disciple to encourage her. He said she has become advanced (wherever that is written), but most of all he wanted it published. He would have reacted differently if his sthayi-bhava had been another one.

When I wrote that song for GM, he was very quick to correct a line that was inaccurate, and not in terms of siddhanta, but of his own feelings.

Babhru Das - August 14, 2008 4:49 pm

Both Malati and Govinda dasi have the same story about Srila Prabhupada's response to this poem. He ordered that it be published in Back to Godhead, and it was. And, as I point out in the essay, he never objected to this, nor to any of the several Vyasa-puja offerings published expressing the same sentiments. If he thought they were wrong, he would have come down hard and nipped it in the bud. It's notable, I think, that in 1970, the same year at least three such offerings were published in the Vyasa-puja book, he said nothing about them, but he expelled four sannyasis from ISKCON for preaching that he is Krishna.

Bhrigu - August 14, 2008 5:23 pm

Even I will agree that this is strong evidence. And the poem can even be found in the Vedabase! It is in BTG nr. 17 in 1968. Fourty years ago!

Swami - August 14, 2008 5:42 pm

Both Malati and Govinda dasi have the same story about Srila Prabhupada's response to this poem. He ordered that it be published in Back to Godhead, and it was.

Yes, good point: The story is corroborated by two devotees different as well.

I realize that some devotees are invested in the idea that Prabhupada had affinity for manjari-bhava, but this appears to me to be coming from somewhere other than from Prabhupada himself. It seems important to me for someone to stand up and say "wait a minute," before all this evidence is swept into the Yamuna and Prabhupad is misrepresented on down the road.

My observation is that the sampradaya has drifted intellectually and even economically in the direction of being an exclusively manjari-bhava sampradaya over the past few centuries. Moved away that is from the diversity that the lineage actually represents. BVT and BSST were more true in this sense to the actually diversity of the lineage, even when they themselves relished manjari-bhava. You will find room thru-out their writing for all four bhavas of Vraja.

This intellectual drift is not based on feeling and realization. Look for example today at how many have intellectually identified with manjari-bhava only to slight other bhavas and thus reveal their own lack of basic spiritual understanding, or to eventually leave the sampradaya altogether. Evidence for the economic drift, as I see it, is found in the many sakhya rasa lineages that have turned madhurya because madhurya is the highest and, arguably, those householder gurus and caste goswamis that make their livelihood through initiation do not want to have a less valuable product to market. To the extent that this is true, it is a really pity and needs to be addressed. Jaya Radhe!

Prahlad Das - August 14, 2008 6:56 pm

All Glories to the Residents of Vrndavan!!! Jaya Jaya Vrndavan Vasi Jata Jan!!! :Shame On You:

If this thread doesn't want to make one go There to see first hand I don't know what will. :Sleepy:

Prema-bhakti - August 14, 2008 7:07 pm

This intellectual drift is not based on feeling and realization. Look for example today at how many have intellectually identified with manjari-bhava only to slight other bhavas and thus reveal their own lack of basic spiritual understanding, or to eventually leave the sampradaya altogether. Evidence for the economic drift, as I see it, is found in the many sakhya rasa lineages that have turned madhurya because madhurya is the highest and, arguably, those householder gurus and caste goswamis that make their livelihood through initiation do not want to have a less valuable product to market. To the extent that this is true, it is a really pity and needs to be addressed. Jaya Radhe!

This is reminiscent of Srila BSST and his stance against the "nutcrackers". Addressing such economic issues were so volatile as we know.

Brahma Dasa - August 14, 2008 8:52 pm

I'm surprised too, Brahma. As the Sanga editor you seem to seek out controversy, why the sudden faint-heartedness? :Shame On You:

I don’t think that it is correct to say that I seek out controversy. I think that it is more accurate to say that my service required that I respond to criticism, a lot of it, much more than I copied to Tattva viveka. So Yes, I am somewhat concerned about devotional public opinion, and I don’t think my concern in this case is unreasonable.

After all, Sridhara Maharaja like to quote Pope—“Fools rush in, where Angles fear to tread.” Not that I think that anyone involved in the project is a fool, rather I think fools, and acomplished devotees as well, will be coming out of the woodwork to criticize the piece and the authors who published it.

So while the new evidence is compelling, making the project more interesting, Babhru more or less summed up my opinion when he wrote:

“I'm reluctant to discuss this topic in public, as I make clear in my opening paragraph. I have a sense that it may even be indecent to do so. And I have no intention of trying to prove that Srila Prabhupada is without doubt a sakhya rasa guru. The only reason to bring the topic up is that those other folks have been arguing for years, with no equivocation at all, that it is impossible for Srila Prabhupada, or any devotee in our line, to be in any other bhava than madhurya.”

And I don’t agree that I have it backwards in regards to the difference between circulating an article in print from circulating one on the internet. While an internet article is more likely to be read by more people, publishing a hard copy in addition to the internet article indicates (at least in my mind)—more emphasis—more in your face proselytizing.

Here’s an idea.. :Sleepy: Before the article is published why not run the draft by Narsinga Maharaja and see if he finds the evidence conclusive. He is a reasonable person, and not an antagonist, so lets see if he is convinced. If not, than at least you will hear some opposing arguments based on what you have written--and then you can address them.

Brahma Dasa - August 14, 2008 9:02 pm

Its not that this topic has not been addressed in Sanga. Below are just a few of many examples. Two of which I compiled. So I’m not entirely against airing the subject, I’m just uncomfortable with pushing the issue. (I guess in my old age I’m becoming more of a backward pushing person.) Tired of the wars so to speak.

April 3, 2004, Vol. VI, No. 7

Rasika Darsana

Q & A with Swami B. V. Tripurari

“On numerous occasions my Guru Maharaja expressed an affinity for sakhya rasa, and in my experience many of his disciples have an undeveloped but natural attraction for this spiritual sentiment.”

Q. We commonly hear that all the gurus in the line of Sri Rupa Goswami (the Gaudiya sampradaya) are in a type of conjugal love with Krsna known as manjari bhava. However some devotees point to the following prayer written by Srila Prabhupada as evidence that his spiritual identity in Krsna lila was that of a cowherd boy in sakhya bhava (friendly love). What are your thoughts on this? “O my dear brother! Meeting you again I will experience great joy. Wandering about the pastures and fields, I will pass the entire day with you tending the cows. Joking with you and frolicking throughout so many forests of Vraja, I will roll upon the ground in spiritual ecstasy. When, oh when will that day be mine?” (Prayer to the Lotus Feet of Krsna)

A. Most of the gurus and siddhas in our sampradaya have an affinity for manjari bhava, but there are some exceptions. Siddhas such as Vamsidasa babaji and Srila Prabhupada's godbrother, Akincana Krsnadasa babaji are examples. The diksa guru of Syamananda dasa, Hrdaya Caitanya, was in sakhya rasa. Indeed, the Gaudiya sampradaya began when the dvadasa gopalas (twelve cowherd friends of Krsna) appeared with Nitai and Gaura and began initiating disciples. So there is no prohibition in the Gaudiya sampradaya against having a guru in sakhya rasa, and if you have a sat guru who is situated in sakhya rasa, it is not a problem.

On numerous occasions my Guru Maharaja expressed an affinity for sakhya rasa, and in my experience many of his disciples have an undeveloped but natural attraction for this spiritual sentiment. Pujyapada Sridhara Deva Goswami considered him to be in sakhya-rati. However, to harmonize the sentiments of some of his disciples, Srila Sridhara Maharaja also said it is possible that Srila Prabhupada veiled his sentiments for manjari bhava out of deference to Nityananda Prabhu, who empowered him to preach, and while under the influence of Nityananda Prabhu expressed sentiments for sakhya bhava. Such a possibility exists, although it seems unlikely because almost the entire Nityananda parivara openly express affinity for manjari bhava.

[Editors note: More on this topic can be found in the Sanga entitled: Highest Rasa: “Fools Rush In”]

Stop the Mind:

April 7, 2000, Vol

Q. I have heard that Prabhupada is in sakhya rasa like Subala sakha. Did he say this, or is this just an opinion? And if this is true, does this create difficulty for his disciples who are in madhurya rasa?

A. This is an opinion, not an unreasonable one. Sridhara Maharaja felt that Prabhupada had affinity for sakhya rasa, either owing to this being his actual sentiment, or out of deference to Nityananda prabhu who had empowered him. In consideration of the latter, he may have veiled his madhurya sentiment.

Some of his disciples may have the vision that his is a follower of Subala. If the guru is in manjari bhava, he can also give sakhya bhava, and thus could be perceived by different disciples as representing different potencies of Krsna.

If your guru is in sakhya rasa, this is not a problem. It is difficult to find a guru with affinity for any rasa these days. Sakhya rasa is very compatible with madhurya, especially Subala's love.

Subala is a priya narma sakha. It is a mixture of friendship and conjugal love. With emphasis on the conjugal side of it. Rupa Goswami calls Subala's love “sakhi bhava.” While the manjaris are tendering to Radha in her plight of separation, Subala and others are consoling Krsna in his separation from Radha. We find in Caitanya Caritamrita that Mahaprabhu was sometimes consoled by Ramamanda Ray, just as Subala consoled Krsna in the Vraja lila.

A siddha guru situated in the sakhi bhava of Subala, that by its nature is not competitive with Radha, is a very capable guide for one who will find his eternal service in manjari bhava for Radha, although he may turn this disciple to siksa guru of manjari bhava in the long run.

Krsna Lila—The Highest Reality:

April 7, 2005

Q. I heard that Caitanya Mahaprabhu came to distribute love of Krsna like that possessed by the handmaids of Radha (manjari bhava). Do all Gaudiya Vaisnavas ultimately develop this type of love for Krsna?

A. Sriman Mahaprabhu said:

dasya, sakhya, vatsalya, srngara-cari rasa cari bhavera bhakta yata krsna tara vasa

“Servitude, friendship, parental affection, and conjugal love are the four transcendental mellows. By the devotees who cherish these four mellows, Lord Krsna is subdued.”

yuga-dharma pravartaimu nama-sankirtana cari bhava-bhakti diya nacamu bhuvana

“I shall personally inaugurate the religion of the age—nama-sankirtana, the congregational chanting of the holy name. I shall make the world dance in ecstasy, realizing the four mellows of loving devotional service.”

Mahaprabhu opened the doors to Vrndavana, which is all about the sentiments by which Krsna is conquered. The chief of these sentiments is Radha's love for Krsna, which is what Vrndavana is all about. Still, the Vrndavana lila requires the other three sentiments (servitude, friendship, and parental affection) in order for it to take place. So all four are important and one may be spiritually attracted to any of them. At the same time, Radha's love for Krsna is the most transcendentally comprehensive, meaning that it pleases Krsna the most and thus affords her the extraordinary experience of madana mahabhava, the highest ecstasy of spiritual love. It is this bhava that Krsna appearing as Sri Caitanya wants to taste.

Because Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu is our ideal, it is natural that most devotees will desire to taste the particular sentiment of love that he experienced. However, this is not always the case, and as I mentioned, the other three bhavas of Vraja are also important supports for this mahabhava. So while most Gaudiya acaryas relish Radha's love in the culture of manjari-bhava as handmaids of Radha, there are some exceptions

Babhru Das - August 14, 2008 10:08 pm

After all, Sridhara Maharaja like to quote Pope—“Fools rush in, where Angles fear to tread.” Not that I think that anyone involved in the project is a fool, rather I think fools, and acomplished devotees as well, will be coming out of the woodwork to criticize the piece and the authors who published it.

I don't think there's any doubt that others will criticize it. I think I mentioned before that it would almost disappoint me if no one did; that would mean we've said nothing interesting, maybe nothing worth saying at all. Instead, I think this is very interesting and is very likely to reassure many devotees.

So while the new evidence is compelling, making the project more interesting, Babhru more or less summed up my opinion when he wrote:

“I'm reluctant to discuss this topic in public, as I make clear in my opening paragraph. I have a sense that it may even be indecent to do so. And I have no intention of trying to prove that Srila Prabhupada is without doubt a sakhya rasa guru. The only reason to bring the topic up is that those other folks have been arguing for years, with no equivocation at all, that it is impossible for Srila Prabhupada, or any devotee in our line, to be in any other bhava than madhurya.”

And it's just that argument that makes this relevant. Whereas I don't try to prove anything, except perhaps that the assertion that gopi-bahava is all that Mahaprabhu teaches is mistaken, the evidence itself makes quite a strong case, particularly in light of the dearth of evidence otherwise.

With regard to how it's published and who vets it, those have not been discussed very thoroughly yet.

I want to make it clear that I appreciate Brahma's words of caution. If nothing else, we may accept them as purvapaksa; they can't help improving the eventual work.

Babhru Das - August 14, 2008 10:34 pm

Here's something from the introduction about why I think this is worth discussing. I apologize for any diacritics I've missed removing.

I have, as you may imagine, been asked why I would even bother to write something exploring Srila Prabhupada’s inner life. After all, we are warned, we should not intrude where we’re not welcome. Indeed, Srila Prabhupada himself repeatedly cautioned us against premature curiosity about either our own or his siddha-deha. Moreover, this topic is generally not appropriate for public discussion, much less argument. For these obvious reasons and others, I naturally hesitate to broach this subject publicly; it has never been my practice to discuss such things, except with close friends with whom I have confidential relationships. In our neophyte condition, we are told, we should concern ourselves simply with chanting our prescribed number of rounds, following the regulative principles, and preaching Krñna consciousness. I certainly do not object to those concerns.

But I have to wonder what the point of such chanting, following the principles, and other service to guru and Gauranga might be. Should we not see some progress in our own inner life, an eventual, if gradual, shift from not committing sinful activities, or more subtly, from avoiding interests contrary to spiritual life, to perceivable progress in spiritual interest? This would in no way diminish our practice and/or preaching in any sense. In fact, such increased interest spiritual topics enhances both our practice and our preaching. After all, Srila Bhaktisisddhanta Sarasvati said on Vraja-manòala-parikrama in 1932 that we “should not make the mistake of thinking that anartha-nivrtti is the prayojana. One thinking like this will never enter into artha-pravrtti [cultivating that which is desirable]. . . . Do not let your day pass in trying [simply] for anartha-nivrtti. Artha-pravrtti is also necessary.” After considerable time spent chanting hari nama, we should see the dawning of an interest in spiritual life beyond the “four regs.” I have no intention of distracting anyone at any stage of spiritual progress from the service given by their spiritual master; in fact, I hope what they find here will foster that service.

Neither do I intend to persuade those with strong convictions that Srila Prabhupada’s internal spiritual life has another shape. As we will see below, the topic of our spiritual master’s inner devotional affinity has been discussed for many years. Early after his departure, his friend and Godbrother, Srila B. R. Sridhara Maharaja, offered his own perspective on this, as we will see later in this essay. More recently, other devotees have stirred some degree of controversy by publicly sharing their beliefs with regard to Srila Prabhupada’s eternal identity, both in public meetings and on the World Wide Web. I know many of these devotees personally, and I will always value their friendship and advice. Some of them may appreciate this endeavor more than others. Ultimately, though, Prabhupada is who he is, and all I can offer here is my humble attempt to gather in one place evidence that points to his inner life, and my reflections on the significance I see that evidence, especially in the light shed by sastra and sadhus. If anyone has a comparable body of evidence showing otherwise, I would be delighted if they would share it, so we can discuss further. Let us by all means churn the ocean of Srila Prabhupada’s glories until we generate a hurricane of kirtana and then ride the waves of that kirtana for all we are worth!

Prema-bhakti - August 14, 2008 11:07 pm

Here's something from the introduction about why I think this is worth discussing. I apologize for any diacritics I've missed removing.

I have, as you may imagine, been asked why I would even bother to write something exploring Srila Prabhupada’s inner life. After all, we are warned, we should not intrude where we’re not welcome. Indeed, Srila Prabhupada himself repeatedly cautioned us against premature curiosity about either our own or his siddha-deha. Moreover, this topic is generally not appropriate for public discussion, much less argument. For these obvious reasons and others, I naturally hesitate to broach this subject publicly; it has never been my practice to discuss such things, except with close friends with whom I have confidential relationships. In our neophyte condition, we are told, we should concern ourselves simply with chanting our prescribed number of rounds, following the regulative principles, and preaching Krñna consciousness. I certainly do not object to those concerns.

But I have to wonder what the point of such chanting, following the principles, and other service to guru and Gauranga might be. Should we not see some progress in our own inner life, an eventual, if gradual, shift from not committing sinful activities, or more subtly, from avoiding interests contrary to spiritual life, to perceivable progress in spiritual interest? This would in no way diminish our practice and/or preaching in any sense. In fact, such increased interest spiritual topics enhances both our practice and our preaching. After all, Srila Bhaktisisddhanta Sarasvati said on Vraja-manòala-parikrama in 1932 that we “should not make the mistake of thinking that anartha-nivrtti is the prayojana. One thinking like this will never enter into artha-pravrtti [cultivating that which is desirable]. . . . Do not let your day pass in trying [simply] for anartha-nivrtti. Artha-pravrtti is also necessary.” After considerable time spent chanting hari nama, we should see the dawning of an interest in spiritual life beyond the “four regs.” I have no intention of distracting anyone at any stage of spiritual progress from the service given by their spiritual master; in fact, I hope what they find here will foster that service.

Neither do I intend to persuade those with strong convictions that Srila Prabhupada’s internal spiritual life has another shape. As we will see below, the topic of our spiritual master’s inner devotional affinity has been discussed for many years. Early after his departure, his friend and Godbrother, Srila B. R. Sridhara Maharaja, offered his own perspective on this, as we will see later in this essay. More recently, other devotees have stirred some degree of controversy by publicly sharing their beliefs with regard to Srila Prabhupada’s eternal identity, both in public meetings and on the World Wide Web. I know many of these devotees personally, and I will always value their friendship and advice. Some of them may appreciate this endeavor more than others. Ultimately, though, Prabhupada is who he is, and all I can offer here is my humble attempt to gather in one place evidence that points to his inner life, and my reflections on the significance I see that evidence, especially in the light shed by sastra and sadhus. If anyone has a comparable body of evidence showing otherwise, I would be delighted if they would share it, so we can discuss further. Let us by all means churn the ocean of Srila Prabhupada’s glories until we generate a hurricane of kirtana and then ride the waves of that kirtana for all we are worth!

Bravo Babhru! I look forward to the rest. :Shame On You:

Premanandini - August 15, 2008 1:55 am

i actually never worried about this - but now after all these points came up - something sweet came to my mind -

some time ago we gathered with a smal group of devotees together with my godbrother Sadhu maharaj - he is very simply hearted and not philosophical -

some devotees asked him, why - the iskcon people although being devotees sometimes have so extremly harsh ways of dealings with others -

and Sadhu Maharaja simply replied:" Oh, dont worry, thats because they are krsna bhaktas - if you want softer dealings you have to go to the camp of srimati radharani."

i found the answer very sweet and harmonising - but now in light of this discussion it maybe even gets a deeper meaning

Prema-bhakti - August 15, 2008 2:54 am

Interesting (and a bit embarassing) that it seems other GV sects are in the know and ISKCON seems to be in the dark for the most part. Even my elderly friend Dadu ( from Vrndavana) who went to Radha Kunda 40 years ago and who was intiated into a babaji lineage was told (after being pressured to continue with his manasi seva although he felt inspired another way) if he truly wanted to aspire for sakhya rati he should go to Krsna Balarama Mandir. :Hypnotized: and so he did.

Swami - August 15, 2008 3:06 am

i actually never worried about this - but now after all these points came up - something sweet came to my mind -

some time ago we gathered with a smal group of devotees together with my godbrother Sadhu maharaj - he is very simply hearted and not philosophical -

some devotees asked him, why - the iskcon people although being devotees sometimes have so extremly harsh ways of dealings with others -

and Sadhu Maharaja simply replied:" Oh, dont worry, thats because they are krsna bhaktas - if you want softer dealings you have to go to the camp of srimati radharani."

i found the answer very sweet and harmonising - but now in light of this discussion it maybe even gets a deeper meaning

Yes, if only they would wake up this reality. Then they would also become softer as well.

Syamasundara - August 15, 2008 3:19 am

Wow, I was just reading this casually (I mean, not trying to analyze it), yet I could see some technical aspects of your writing style and your dexterity. A useful weapon in this case. I was reminded of the club fight between Bhima and Duryodhana, that Vyasa describes as a dance.

By the way, there is a sentence where there seems to be a word missing, or otherwise, I don't know what it means.

" and my reflections on the significance I see that evidence" 4th line from the bottom.

Syamasundara - August 15, 2008 3:20 am

Bravo Babhru!

Can you say that quickly 5 times? :Hypnotized:

Syamasundara - August 15, 2008 3:50 am

Today at lunch I had the fulguration about why Krsna Balarama in Vrndavana.

Basically, I remembered the day I heard that the deities in Vrndavana were KB. The sensation I had would probably translate into words as: "Well, naturally, it's the main temple." Today I realized that Mayapur and LA were much more prominent as temples, but to me, in the back of my mind it was always obvious; if SP had opened a temple in Ayodhya, who would he have installed? Sita Rama. In Puri? Jagannatha. In Dvaraka? Rukmini-Dvarakadhisa...

But the fact of the matter is that he did not. Actually in Ayodhya he would have probably installed Radha-Krsna, to make a point (the same point he made all over the world). Even in Mayapur, he could have installed a big deity of Mahaprabhu, or GN, or the 5tattva, but he installed Radha-Madhava, to make the point that Mahaprabhu is the same Radha-Madhava combined. If I remember well, originally the deities were Gaura-Radha-Madhava.

And in Vrndavana, where the most obvious deities would be RK, his statement seems to be: "So far I was establishing the siddhanta, but now we are in Vrndavana, this is the real thing." So he installed what Vrndavana meant to him.

So, can someone tell me why Raman Reti is significant?

Syamasundara - August 15, 2008 3:54 am

Of course nowadays we have KB in Bangalore, I believe London, etc. My question is: Did SP only install KB in Vrndavana?

Otherwise what I said before has no relevance.

Prema-bhakti - August 15, 2008 4:57 am

So, can someone tell me why Raman Reti is significant?

It is in this area of soft sands Ksna and Balarama would walk with the cows daily.

In SP's own words from 10.13.5-6, The Stealing of the Calves and Boys by Brahma

TRANSLATION

My dear friends, just see how this riverbank is extremely beautiful because of its pleasing atmosphere. And just see how the blooming lotuses are attracting bees and birds by their aroma. The humming and chirping of the bees and birds is echoing throughout the beautiful trees in the forest. Also, here the sands are clean and soft. Therefore, this must be considered the best place for our sporting and pastimes.

PURPORT

The description of Vrindāvana forest as given herewith was spoken by Krishna five thousand years ago, and the same condition prevailed during the time of the Vaishnava ācāryas three or four hundred years ago. Kūjat-kokila-hamsa-sārasa-ganākīrne mayūrākule. Vrindāvana forest is always filled with the chirping and cooing of birds like cuckoos (kokila), ducks (hamsa) and cranes (sārasa), and it is also full of peacocks (mayūrākule). The same sounds and atmosphere still prevail in the area where our Krishna-Balarāma temple is situated. Everyone who visits this temple is pleased to hear the chirping of the birds as described here (kūjat-kokila-hamsa-sārasa).

Premanandini - August 15, 2008 9:12 am

Yes, if only they would wake up this reality. Then they would also become softer as well.

wow! i slowly seem to get it.........if such a booklet was not intented to spread controversity but to make the hearts softer for unitiy in diversity - showing the beauty of sakhya, specially priya nam sakhya not as a degradation (which would definitily be an offence -right?) but as a high standard of spiritual bhava - then purpose would be fullfilled - right?

and it would show high respect for Srila Prabhupadas mood..........

Swami - August 15, 2008 11:37 am

wow! i slowly seem to get it.........if such a booklet was not intented to spread controversity but to make the hearts softer for unitiy in diversity - showing the beauty of sakhya, specially priya nam sakhya not as a degradation (which would definitily be an offence -right?) but as a high standard of spiritual bhava - then purpose would be fullfilled - right?
and it would show high respect for Srila Prabhupadas mood..........

Yes, you are catching on.

Vrindaranya Dasi - August 15, 2008 1:17 pm

Although I find the comments of Sadhu Maharaja charming and can see the point about the difference of male and female natures (in the classic sense), practically speaking it doesn't seem to play out. For example, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura did not have a soft nature, at least not in his preaching style. Gentleness is a virtue, but a relative one: what's the use of gentleness in the face of a Hitler? Because of the nature of the material world, gentleness seems to be less important than say courage and love of truth. Or perhaps it is a matter of the dynamic expression of gentleness.

Although I appreciate gentleness, it strikes me as a deficiency when it comes at the cost of a bold preaching spirit. Those who have the most influence on thought are the bold preachers. The apparently gentle ones are often less potent, and I even wonder sometimes if the so-called gentle spirit isn't concealing a lack in another area. I hope someone doesn't bring up the indirect preaching of gentleness ( :Hypnotized: ). Yes, it was very effectively employed by Mahaprabhu, but not exclusively. With the crude stock of today's world, subtlety is mostly overlooked. Therefore, it seems that overcoming a sensitive and gentle nature is more desirable.

Babhru Das - August 15, 2008 4:11 pm

Wow, I was just reading this casually (I mean, not trying to analyze it), yet I could see some technical aspects of your writing style and your dexterity. A useful weapon in this case. I was reminded of the club fight between Bhima and Duryodhana, that Vyasa describes as a dance.

Hmmm . . . I'd like to hear more about what you see. I'm not always able to see my own writing as a reader, especially when as immersed in drafting and copy-editing as I have been.

By the way, there is a sentence where there seems to be a word missing, or otherwise, I don't know what it means.

" and my reflections on the significance I see that evidence" 4th line from the bottom.

But not enough copy editing, it seems. Thanks for catching that, Syamu. The missing word appears to be in.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - August 15, 2008 4:49 pm

Both Malati and Govinda dasi have the same story about Srila Prabhupada's response to this poem. He ordered that it be published in Back to Godhead, and it was. And, as I point out in the essay, he never objected to this, nor to any of the several Vyasa-puja offerings published expressing the same sentiments. If he thought they were wrong, he would have come down hard and nipped it in the bud. It's notable, I think, that in 1970, the same year at least three such offerings were published in the Vyasa-puja book, he said nothing about them, but he expelled four sannyasis from ISKCON for preaching that he is Krishna.

Is Govinda dasi nitai's mother?

Nitaisundara Das - August 15, 2008 5:08 pm

Is Govinda dasi nitai's mother?

All women are my mother prabhuji, but if you are referring to the one who gave birth to me, no. My mother is Govinda Vallabha.

Prema-bhakti - August 15, 2008 5:20 pm

All women are my mother prabhuji, but if you are referring to the one who gave birth to me, no. My mother is Govinda Vallabha.

Oh you are such a good prabhuji. :Hypnotized:

When Rasa-parayana read that Vamsi called me the mother of us all on TV. He laughed and said, "No, Mother Yasoda is the mother of us all."

Audarya-lila Dasa - August 15, 2008 5:24 pm

Although I find the comments of Sadhu Maharaja charming and can see the point about the difference of male and female natures (in the classic sense), practically speaking it doesn't seem to play out. For example, Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura did not have a soft nature, at least not in his preaching style. Gentleness is a virtue, but a relative one: what's the use of gentleness in the face of a Hitler? Because of the nature of the material world, gentleness seems to be less important than say courage and love of truth. Or perhaps it is a matter of the dynamic expression of gentleness.

Although I appreciate gentleness, it strikes me as a deficiency when it comes at the cost of a bold preaching spirit. Those who have the most influence on thought are the bold preachers. The apparently gentle ones are often less potent, and I even wonder sometimes if the so-called gentle spirit isn't concealing a lack in another area. I hope someone doesn't bring up the indirect preaching of gentleness ( ). Yes, it was very effectively employed by Mahaprabhu, but not exclusively. With the crude stock of today's world, subtlety is mostly overlooked. Therefore, it seems that overcoming a sensitive and gentle nature is more desirable.

I can't really agree with your assessment here Vrndaranya, if i may be so bold! I don't think that gentleness need get in the way of seva or preaching and if it does then it really is a deficiency in spirit and not virtuous at all. It may be that the two of us are thinking about gentleness in different ways so maybe I should frame my comments around my conception so that we are at least talking the same language. I view gentleness as a fruit of the spirit and I see it as an ability to present oneself in a kind and caring manner. Iskcon folks are conditioned to fight and be the agressor when it comes to 'preaching'. This spills over into many of their interpersonal dealings as well. For me at least, that is very unatrractive and the method (aggression) turns me off to the message as it does many people regardless of how crude we may be. I find peacefullness, calmness, tolerance etc to be akin to gentleness and I think these virtues don't just have relative value, they are fruits of the spirit and as such attract others, which in turn creates the right enviroinment for preaching which is heard and potentially acted upon.

If a person is sensitve and gentle they will be able to 'read the environment' properly and will understand how to enliven those around them. In fact, this is one of the many aspects of Guru Maharja's presentation that orignally attracted me to him - he presents our tradition boldly, but not agressively - he is gentle and accomodating and sees the good in everyone. He takes the time to consider the person, the rest of the audience, the context and answers questions in a manner which is very relishable and digestable. I don't think that gentleness need be subtle or skirt around important issues due to meekness - that would be counterproductive for sure - what I think we should cultivate is a senstive and gentle nature while at the same time seeking to boldly present our tradition in a meaningul way. Without gentleness and sensitivity who is going to want to take up our path since our actions will always speak louder than our words?

Gaura-Vijaya Das - August 15, 2008 5:39 pm

I can't really agree with your assessment here Vrndaranya, if i may be so bold! I don't think that gentleness need get in the way of seva or preaching and if it does then it really is a deficiency in spirit and not virtuous at all. It may be that the two of us are thinking about gentleness in different ways so maybe I should frame my comments around my conception so that we are at least talking the same language. I view gentleness as a fruit of the spirit and I see it as an ability to present oneself in a kind and caring manner. Iskcon folks are conditioned to fight and be the agressor when it comes to 'preaching'. This spills over into many of their interpersonal dealings as well. For me at least, that is very unatrractive and the method (aggression) turns me off to the message as it does many people regardless of how crude we may be. I find peacefullness, calmness, tolerance etc to be akin to gentleness and I think these virtues don't just have relative value, they are fruits of the spirit and as such attract others, which in turn creates the right enviroinment for preaching which is heard and potentially acted upon.

If a person is sensitve and gentle they will be able to 'read the environment' properly and will understand how to enliven those around them. In fact, this is one of the many aspects of Guru Maharja's presentation that orignally attracted me to him - he presents our tradition boldly, but not agressively - he is gentle and accomodating and sees the good in everyone. He takes the time to consider the person, the rest of the audience, the context and answers questions in a manner which is very relishable and digestable. I don't think that gentleness need be subtle or skirt around important issues due to meekness - that would be counterproductive for sure - what I think we should cultivate is a senstive and gentle nature while at the same time seeking to boldly present our tradition in a meaningul way. Without gentleness and sensitivity who is going to want to take up our path since our actions will always speak louder than our words?

I could not agree more. Knowing our own inadequacies and the infinite grace available to us it is very hard for me to not be drawn towards gentleness and tolerance. Gentleness or Tolerance is a virtue which has been glorified all through in 12th-14th chapter of B.G and also by Sri Krsna in the Uddhava Gita. We can be firm on some issues when required but internal character of a Vaisnava is not aggressive. Unless one are already know your svarupa as a militant manjari or sakhya. Till the death of material ego takes place and real spiritual ego develops it is hard to be aggressive without being counterproductive.

I don't like the idea of using BSST as a example to just use aggression and it has shown to not work in the long run. Aggression is counterproductive many times and it has been for ISKCON and christian fundamentalism. Atleast I am very attracted by the personal example of Sanatana Goswami and Haridas Thakur and their gentle and tolerant nature is very attractive to me.

I have never seen an example where aggression alone brings a real transformation of the heart and it has worked in the long run.

Swami - August 15, 2008 6:40 pm

Or perhaps it is a matter of the dynamic expression of gentleness.

Although I appreciate gentleness, it strikes me as a deficiency when it comes at the cost of a bold preaching spirit.

Yes, this is how I am. I am gentle, but not in a sentimental sense that gets in the way of speaking the truth when it needs to be spoken. It is as common to err on the side of gentleness as it is to err on the side of self assertion. Vrindaranya seems to be speaking about avoiding both, with some emphasis on gentleness in the context of this discussion of whether or not to publish.

Audarya-lila Dasa - August 15, 2008 7:03 pm

Yes, this is how I am. I am gentle, but not in a sentimental sense that gets in the way of speaking the truth when it needs to be spoken. It is as common to err on the side of gentleness as it is to err on the side of self assertion. Vrindaranya seems to be speaking about avoiding both, with some emphasis on gentleness in the context of this discussion of whether or not to publish.

Vrndaranya was being far too subtle for a crude person such as myself then :Hypnotized:

Personally, I think such an article or booklet should be published. There is far too much misunderstanding regarding our lineage and what Mahaprabhu has come to give, what is the meaining of Rupanuga, etc. I really like the aspects of the siddhanta that the article will obviously stress and reiterate and I also really appreciate the context within which the siddhanta is being expressed as it glorifies Srila Prabhpuada and his unique love.

Nitaisundara Das - August 15, 2008 7:33 pm

I don't like the idea of using BSST as a example to just use aggression and it has shown to not work in the long run.

i'm not sure but this could be taken as saying that BSST approach did not work in the long run, because Gaudiya math became divided, is that what you meant?

Also she did not say he was "just" aggressive, but that his preaching was. Like SSM said that BSST declared "totalitarian war on maya...." whereas SSM himself seems to have a much softer approach over all. If neither approach eclipses siddhanta than all is well. Certainly in the course of maintaining siddhanta there will be some necessity for aggressiveness, especially in today's world. An example would be the recent quote of SSM that GM posted, where he is taking the assertive, aggressive stance.

Obviously aggression for Krishna is properly centered, even in their sadhaka deha devotees have unique characters. As long as the center is right there is room for all sorts of variety I think. There is no one way that spiritual person should act, thank god.

I think there is a term "aggressive therapy": when an illness is really bad the treatment must be more drastic.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - August 15, 2008 10:53 pm

With the crude stock of today's world, subtlety is mostly overlooked. Therefore, it seems that overcoming a sensitive and gentle nature is more desirable.

I never said that everybody should be gentle but here she said that sensitive and gentle nature has to be overcome or abandoned . This is advocating the reverse: everybody should abandon their gentle nature. Madhva's type of aggressive approach of blowing everybody out cannot work in today's pluralistic environment. I have seen people in the name of following prabhupada and BSST take license to be aggressive to the extent that I developed resentment for the approach of BSST. There are just too many aggressive people out there and people who understand subtleties find no room in GV's aggression. At least people of my psychological nature are not attracted by aggression.

I personally don't like to target crude stock of today. I want to target people who understand subtleties and thankfully there are a few people like that in the world even today. But yes with the crude stock we have to firm and I have also been firm with them though it is against my nature.

I have just stated my personal preference for gentle people and I don't fell the need to abandon that preference when qualities of forgiveness and tolerance are glorified all through the sastras.

Again I am all for publishing this article.

Vrindaranya Dasi - August 16, 2008 12:20 am

I see now that I should have qualified my statements more. Let me try to do so here.

In one sense, I believe it can be argued that all preaching is aggressive because you are trying to change someone's mind. In fact, even expressing a contrary opinion can be experienced as an affront. This is admittedly a subtle aggression, but it is clearly observed that even a thoughtful and balanced presentation of an issue can elicit a strong response. To push on, knowing that people will be disturbed, can be construed as aggression. As Srila Prabhupada said, "I came to your country as an aggressor" and "If no one complains you aren't preaching."

Because of the variety of conceptions of truth, harmony among a large group of people is always being upset by conflict. Relative harmony is maintained by avoiding debate. People intuitively understand this and often avoid debate by not pushing an issue (which is often a good idea). This very thread has gone on for several pages now in essence on this very point: Is the controversy that will inevitably arise from stating what we believe to be true worth it? Several people suggested softening the potential controversy by not making a definitive statement. For example, "I’m just uncomfortable with pushing the issue. Tired of the wars so to speak" and "I feel that a confrontational, 'this is the truth on Prabhupada's svarupa' approach may not be the best."

I can relate to this sentiment. For a gentle person, conflict is unpleasant. And as I already mentioned, today's world is crude stock. Frankly, the devotee community is no exception.

Therefore, there has to be something that is valued more than harmony to overcome the unpleasantness of conflict. In other words, if there isn't a compelling reason otherwise, why create conflict? For our acaryas, these are things like truth, mercy, etc. Therefore, gentle devotees like Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, Srila Prabhupada, and our Guru Maharaja will create controversy by disagreeing with prevailing opinion.

Audarya-lila, you say that "If a person is sensitive and gentle they will be able to 'read the environment' properly and will understand how to enliven those around them" and cite Guru Maharaja as an example. However, I can assure you that many people experience his ideas as an aggressive attack on their values and conception of truth. It is interesting to note that many people feel much more threatened by Guru Maharaja than other preachers who have a much more overtly aggressive preaching style.

It is the ideas themselves that are threatening. So the only way to avoid conflict is to suppress or muffle the ideas. This is exactly what several people have suggested in this thread. I have also noted that many preachers today who are noted for their gentleness have taken this approach. I was aghast to read one such sannyasi avoiding having to comment to an issue that had become contentious on the grounds that he would leave it to those learned in the sastras (although a sannyasi is supposed to be learned in the sastra and this issue didn't require specific sastric knowledge). Where are all the bold preachers who love truth and are willing to take an unpopular stand? This is what I meant by overcoming a sensitive and gentle nature.

Vrindaranya Dasi - August 16, 2008 12:31 am

Some more thoughts: Absolute harmony is only possible on the platform of absolute truth. [Perhaps theoretically this is not so, but it most certainly is true for all practical purposes.] Therefore, we come closer to the harmony that we seek by tattva-viveka, actively attempting to ascertain the truth. This process may temporarily disrupt the illusion of harmony. To disagree can be a stepping stone to ultimate harmony.

Audarya-lila Dasa - August 16, 2008 12:34 am

Now I can whole heartedly agree with you

Vrindaranya Dasi - August 16, 2008 12:40 am

I have seen people in the name of following prabhupada and BSST take license to be aggressive to the extent that I developed resentment for the approach of BSST. There are just too many aggressive people out there and people who understand subtleties find no room in GV's aggression. At least people of my psychological nature are not attracted by aggression.

I personally don't like to target crude stock of today. I want to target people who understand subtleties and thankfully there are a few people like that in the world even today. But yes with the crude stock we have to firm and I have also been firm with them though it is against my nature.

I have just stated my personal preference for gentle people and I don't fell the need to abandon that preference when qualities of forgiveness and tolerance are glorified all through the sastras.

I'm sure that Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura's disposition is gentle and that he preferred that approach. The fact that he didn't only target the few subtle people in the world today shows that he was also extraordinarily merciful. He did what needed to be done to accomplish extraordinary seva.

People may say that they are following BSST's mood, but do they have results? And are they really?

Gaura-Vijaya Das - August 16, 2008 6:23 am

I see now that I should have qualified my statements more. Let me try to do so here.

In one sense, I believe it can be argued that all preaching is aggressive because you are trying to change someone's mind. In fact, even expressing a contrary opinion can be experienced as an affront. This is admittedly a subtle aggression, but it is clearly observed that even a thoughtful and balanced presentation of an issue can elicit a strong response. To push on, knowing that people will be disturbed, can be construed as aggression. As Srila Prabhupada said, "I came to your country as an aggressor" and "If no one complains you aren't preaching."

Because of the variety of conceptions of truth, harmony among a large group of people is always being upset by conflict. Relative harmony is maintained by avoiding debate. People intuitively understand this and often avoid debate by not pushing an issue (which is often a good idea). This very thread has gone on for several pages now in essence on this very point: Is the controversy that will inevitably arise from stating what we believe to be true worth it? Several people suggested softening the potential controversy by not making a definitive statement. For example, "I’m just uncomfortable with pushing the issue. Tired of the wars so to speak" and "I feel that a confrontational, 'this is the truth on Prabhupada's svarupa' approach may not be the best."

I can relate to this sentiment. For a gentle person, conflict is unpleasant. And as I already mentioned, today's world is crude stock. Frankly, the devotee community is no exception.

Therefore, there has to be something that is valued more than harmony to overcome the unpleasantness of conflict. In other words, if there isn't a compelling reason otherwise, why create conflict? For our acaryas, these are things like truth, mercy, etc. Therefore, gentle devotees like Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura, Srila Prabhupada, and our Guru Maharaja will create controversy by disagreeing with prevailing opinion.

Audarya-lila, you say that "If a person is sensitive and gentle they will be able to 'read the environment' properly and will understand how to enliven those around them" and cite Guru Maharaja as an example. However, I can assure you that many people experience his ideas as an aggressive attack on their values and conception of truth. It is interesting to note that many people feel much more threatened by Guru Maharaja than other preachers who have a much more overtly aggressive preaching style.

It is the ideas themselves that are threatening. So the only way to avoid conflict is to suppress or muffle the ideas. This is exactly what several people have suggested in this thread. I have also noted that many preachers today who are noted for their gentleness have taken this approach. I was aghast to read one such sannyasi avoiding having to comment to an issue that had become contentious on the grounds that he would leave it to those learned in the sastras (although a sannyasi is supposed to be learned in the sastra and this issue didn't require specific sastric knowledge). Where are all the bold preachers who love truth and are willing to take an unpopular stand? This is what I meant by overcoming a sensitive and gentle nature.

Then I agree with you. I am willing to take unpopular stands. When excessive mercy to the crude stock is shown there is no room left for people with subtleties.

That is what I have problem in order to show mercy to crude stock you abandon the gentle people who appreciate subtleties so that they have no choice but to go to advaita and buddhism. That is what has happened in the past due to the aggression in GV. So should the gentle people suffer now because of mercy shown to crude stock who anyway won't be transformed and will become fanatics mostly. Too many SP's disciples have gone overboard by their fanaticism by having incorrect idea of aggression. That is why I said crude stock generally turn more into fanatics. Unless the voluntary step to come towards spiritual life is taken by a person that response will never last long.

Other thing is results. I am not at all concerned with numbers. Islam has greater number than GV but it counts for nothing. If few people like haridas thakur or sanatana gosvami are created that will suffice more than fundamentalists. That is what I feel because there are sanyasis who are aggressive and getting results but creating more fanaticism.

Babhru Das - August 17, 2008 1:53 am

Here are the last three paragraphs of the essay. It's presently 23 pages long, single spaced--over 12,000 words. This is probably the longest thing I've written since my MA thesis, and it has been much more fun.

When Srila Sridhar Maharaja heard that devotees in ISKCON were upset that he had suggested that Srila Prabhupada was in sakhya-rati, he was startled and asked, “What do they think? Do they think it’s a bad thing? It’s a very high thing.” And when Srila Prabhupada’s Godbrother Sripad Bhakti Pramoda Puri Maharaja heard Srila Prabhupada’s “Prayer to the Lotus Feet of Krsna,” he immediately exclaimed “Sakhya rasa!” Then he told Tripurari Maharaja, “Anyone who thinks they have a problem because their guru is in sakhya rasa rather than madhurya rasa has a problem!”

If we hear from guru, sadhu, and sastra, especially considering Srila Prabhupada’s own words, we should find it easy to accommodate the possibility that devotees and gurus in our line, including Srila Prabhupada, may be in sakhya rasa, and that that is a position so elevated that those of us infected with material consciousness cannot properly conceive it. Those in this position include Lord Brahma, Lord Nityananda, Sri Uddharana Datta Öhakura, Sri Abhirama Thakura, Sri Paramesvara dasa, Sri Dhananjaya Pandita, and Sri Gauridasa Pandita, among many others. That sounds like pretty good company to me.

The weight of the evidence we find in favor of Srila Prabhupada’s affinity for sakhya-rasa seems to so undermine the claims that our sampradaya is concerned only with madhurya –rasa and manjari-bhava that we may find ourselves tempted to dismiss them as due to an excess of enthusiasm for one’s own group. Some of those in this category often compare it to Raghunatha dasa Goswami’s own attitude. The fact is, though, that Dasa Goswami, committed as he was to maïjari-seva as his sole interest, also appreciated the service aspect of all the Vraja bhavas, to the extent that, as Srila Sridhara Maharaja pointed out, he offered his obeisance to sakhya-bhava: sakhayam me namasta nityam. They may also, of course, be influenced by the fact that for many generations our sampradaya has for one reason or another been dominated by devotees emphasizing madhurya-rati, and our teachings are particularly well suited for that mood. And during all that time, sakhya-bhava seems to have stayed somewhat below the threshold of awareness. We may only conjecture about how discipular lines whose origins were in sakhya-bhava later became madhurya-bhava lines, apparently submerging that original mood. However, based on what we see from Srila Prabhupada’s behavior, his writings, his direct assertions, and the insights of many devotees, including those of great experience and deep realization, we may have to admit that the mood of friendship in our sampradaya has re-emerged, and in a big way, with something of a spash! As I suggested earlier, if we find that Srila Prabhupada is among priyanarma sakhas, their unique character goes a long way toward harmonizing the madhurya that has long dominated our sampradaya with the mood of friendship that seems so evident in Srila Prabhupada’s character. Appreciating the significance of this possibility may help us deepen our understanding of, and commitment to, our beloved spiritual master and his divine mission. And maybe, some day, if Srimati Radharani is pleased with us, Srila Prabhupada will share with us some of Krsna’s laddus and kacauris.

Bijaya Kumara Das - August 18, 2008 4:22 am

Srila Prabhupada will share with us some of Krsna’s laddus and kacauris.[/indent][/color]

Yes and as I paraphrase Him, to be able to sit with Krsna and the Gopas for lunch aha this is perfection.

Prahlad Das - August 18, 2008 5:38 am

This is something I came across while reading Srila Prabhupada's introduction to Bhagavad Gita

Therefore Bhagavad-gita is best understood by a person who has qualities similar to Arjuna's. That is to say he must be a devotee in a direct relationship with the Lord. That is a very elaborate subject matter, but briefly it can be stated that a devotee is in a relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in one of five different ways:

1. One may be a devotee in a passive state;

2. One may be a devotee in an active state;

3. One may be a devotee as a friend;

4. One may be a devotee as a parent;

5. One may be a devotee as a conjugal lover.

Syamasundara - August 18, 2008 5:47 am

It's interesting to see how he translates santa and dasya as passive and active, but what is your point in quoting that?

Prahlad Das - August 18, 2008 5:58 am

It's interesting to see how he translates santa and dasya as passive and active, but what is your point in quoting that?

I'm sure it was already in this thread or others like it. My point was that I found it in the introduction to one of the most fundamental studies prescribed to us students of Gaudiya Vaishnavism. In it, Srila Prabhupada clearly states (yet again) that a devotee is in one of these 5 moods. Context shows that it is not a veiled way of saying the latter.

Gandiva Dasi - August 18, 2008 7:25 am

My observation is that the sampradaya has drifted intellectually and even economically in the direction of being an exclusively manjari-bhava sampradaya over the past few centuries. Moved away that is from the diversity that the lineage actually represents. BVT and BSST were more true in this sense to the actually diversity of the lineage, even when they themselves relished manjari-bhava. You will find room thru-out their writing for all four bhavas of Vraja.

This intellectual drift is not based on feeling and realization. Look for example today at how many have intellectually identified with manjari-bhava only to slight other bhavas and thus reveal their own lack of basic spiritual understanding, or to eventually leave the sampradaya altogether. Evidence for the economic drift, as I see it, is found in the many sakhya rasa lineages that have turned madhurya because madhurya is the highest and, arguably, those householder gurus and caste goswamis that make their livelihood through initiation do not want to have a less valuable product to market. To the extent that this is true, it is a really pity and needs to be addressed. Jaya Radhe!

I was thinking that the emphasis has become skewed but I didn't know it had been happening over centuries, I think this is an important point and one Prabhupada stressed. swinging the pendulum back. I found some quotes from Prabhupada ;

Sb lecture London 1973

And there was another rascal during Bhaktivinoda Thäkura's time. Perhaps you know the story. So he was also imitating this räsa-lilä. Mäyävädi rascals, they do that, imitate Krsna. How you can imitate Krsna? You are not Krsna. But by imitating His räsa-lilä they become Krsna. No. If you imitate Krsna of His räsa-lélä, then you have to imitate to lifting the mountain. You have to kill demons like Kamsa. But you'll find the so-called artists, they will paint pictures of Krsna only with gopis dancing and the... Not other things, how He's killing Kamsa, how He's killing Aghäsura, Bakäsura. That they'll not paint. That side is completely blind. But in our Krsna book you'll find both the pictures

SB Nairobi 1975

When you join with Krsna in His räsa dance as gopis, or as cowherds boy, play with Him, or become His father and mother, Yasodä, Nanda Mahäräja, Yasodä-räni, or become servant, or even become like water Yamunä, or land in Vrndavana and trees or fruits or flowers, any way, or cows and calves... Join with Krsna. Then you get änanda, real änanda. Änandamayo 'bhyäsät (Vedänta-sütra 1.1.12). Sac-cid-änanda-vigraha [bs. 5.1]. That is the description in all Bhägavatam, how the Krsna's associates are enjoying life. Kåta-puëya-puïjäù [sB 10.12.11]. Sukadeva Gosvämi said, "These boys who are playing with Krsna, oh, they are not ordinary boys." Kåta-puëya-puïjäù: "They have amassed the effects of pious activities for millions and trillions of births. Now they have come to play with Krsna."

Philosophical discussions with Shyamasundara

Although there is no difference. It is not that those who are serving Krsna as friends just like cowherds boy, and as Radharani is serving Krsna as consort, there is no difference in value, but spiritually there is estimation of value. Radharani's stage is the highest stage.

Jan 1977 Bombay discussions

That is Vrndavana life, either in rasa dance or the cowherd's play or killing the demons or in dining and dancing. The friends are eating, they are being stolen by Brahmä—but the center is Krsna. That is Vrndavana. All activities are going on, just like in other place. But here in Vrndavana, all activities centered around Krsna. When Brahmä is stealing His friends, the center is Krsna. The demon is coming to destroy—the center is Krsna. When there is forest fire, the center is Krsna. This is Vrndavana beauty. In happiness, in danger, in perplexities, in friendship—everything Krsna. Käliya-damana. "Oh, Krsna has gone to Yamunä. He has fallen down in the..., to fight the Käliya." It is a very, what is called, calamity. But still, the center is Krsna. This is the beauty of Vrndavana. "Krsna has entered Yamunä to fight with Käliya." It is not at all good news for mother Yaçodä, Nanda, friends and family, not at all. Their life is lost. But still the Krsna is center. This is Vrndavana life. In everything Krsna is center, anything. We are having just like: "Krsna's a bad propaganda," opposition.

Prahlad Das - August 18, 2008 6:00 pm

Jan 1977 Bombay discussions
That is Vrndavana life, either in rasa dance or the cowherd's play or killing the demons or in dining and dancing. The friends are eating, they are being stolen by Brahmä—but the center is Krsna. That is Vrndavana. All activities are going on, just like in other place. But here in Vrndavana, all activities centered around Krsna. When Brahmä is stealing His friends, the center is Krsna. The demon is coming to destroy—the center is Krsna. When there is forest fire, the center is Krsna. This is Vrndavana beauty. In happiness, in danger, in perplexities, in friendship—everything Krsna. Käliya-damana. "Oh, Krsna has gone to Yamunä. He has fallen down in the..., to fight the Käliya." It is a very, what is called, calamity. But still, the center is Krsna. This is the beauty of Vrndavana. "Krsna has entered Yamunä to fight with Käliya." It is not at all good news for mother Yaçodä, Nanda, friends and family, not at all. Their life is lost. But still the Krsna is center. This is Vrndavana life. In everything Krsna is center, anything. We are having just like: "Krsna's a bad propaganda," opposition.

Such an axiom.

Syamasundara - August 19, 2008 2:00 am

This is indirectly related to this thread. Just came across it by mistake, but a happy finding nonetheless.

He said it was a first ever in Mayapur. Times are changing, indeed.

Check out the second picture in Kartika diary 15(Oct 30th 2006)

Gandiva Dasi - August 21, 2008 4:18 pm

I personally know quite a few devotees in ISKCON who through their devotion to SP and dedication to seva have developed an affinity for sakhya-rasa and have not had interest or have been swayed by the "manjari" propaganda. It is something that naturally arose from their hearts. I think they as well as others would appreciate Babhru's effort.

I guess most of you have seen this but I just reread this report from Satsvarupa M. about Bhakti Tirtha Maharaja's passing

"On the video this morning he said how he had come close to understanding his relations with Krsna in one of our calls. He was aware that one has to be very careful of sahajiya tendencies, but he felt he had a relationship with Krsna as a cowherd boy and he told me this on the phone. I immediately sent him a copy from Krsna Culture of Brhad Bhagavatamrta which has so many cowherd boy pastimes. Sanatana Goswami writes about the perfection of Gopa Kumar becoming a cowherd boy and pastimes in Vrindavan I fedexed the book here the next day. Vrajaila told me how happy he was when the book got here and they began to read it at once. Radhanath Swami also began reading the book with Maharaj. Maybe it's too public to talk like this but these are some of my memories of his last days, how he touched people personally who came to see him, how he brought them close to him and closer to Krsna"

Babhru Das - August 21, 2008 4:24 pm

And now for a little cowboy music: http://kksongs.org/audio/krsnatavapunya.mp3

Citta Hari Dasa - August 21, 2008 5:14 pm

And now for a little cowboy music: http://kksongs.org/audio/krsnatavapunya.mp3

Yeah, now we're talkin'!

Swami - August 22, 2008 5:11 pm

Here, in my opinion, is a better version—the original version by its composer (Jaya Sacinandana dasa) that was sung for Prabhupada in a public assembly in New Dvaraka.

sei dina kabe habe mora, sei dina kabe habe mora

Sorry, the file was too big to upload :He He:

Babhru Das - August 22, 2008 5:54 pm

I looked for Jayasaci's version online, which I much prefer to any others, but I couldn't find it anywhere. This was the best of what I could find.

Is yours online, or do you have it on your computer? If anyone has it and could send a zipped version, that would be great!

Another idea would be if we could have Agnideva record the song.

Citta Hari Dasa - August 22, 2008 6:30 pm

I looked for Jayasaci's version online, which I much prefer to any others, but I couldn't find it anywhere. This was the best of what I could find.

Is yours online, or do you have it on your computer? If anyone has it and could send a zipped version, that would be great!

Another idea would be if we could have Agnideva record the song.

Yes! We should definitely have Agni do a recording.

Madan Gopal Das - August 22, 2008 6:42 pm

Until then...

SVA_05__Prayer_to_the_Lotus_Feet_of_Krsna___Jayasacinandana.mp3

Babhru Das - August 22, 2008 7:11 pm

Oh, Madan, thank you! Mahalo! I haven't heard that for many years.

Babhru Das - August 24, 2008 3:31 pm

Now I should be embarrassed by my greed, but I'm not. Does anyone know how I can download that to my computer without going Pro? I'd love to have this cowboy song on my iPod.

Madan Gopal Das - August 24, 2008 3:45 pm

In firefox: Tools/Options/Content - on the file types section click 'manage'. Highlight mp3 and click 'change action'. Then select 'save them on my computer'. Next time you click on the link or any mp3 file on the web it should prompt you to save the file. Yea! Mahalo back at ya!

Babhru Das - August 24, 2008 4:14 pm

Thanks once again. Actually, I went to Tools/Options/Applications, but it worked. Mahalo.

Syama Gopala Dasa - August 25, 2008 5:45 am

why not right click on the link and click on "save as" :Whew:

on a mac, right click means holding down ctrl and clicking.

Syamasundara - August 25, 2008 6:02 am

One thing to be said in favor of Narasimha mj's version is that not only SP's father asked every sadhu to make SP a nice devotee of Radharani, but that's what the astrologer said about him at his birth.

It doesn't prove much of anything, and in a way he did become a servant of Radharani, in the form of her representative, Nayana-mani mañjari.

Madan Gopal Das - August 25, 2008 3:10 pm

And everybody, in every rasa in Vraja is a servant of their queen. Prabhupad made Radha's kingdom accessible to all. There are so many ways to say that a sakha of Krsna is also a servant of Radha. Jaya Prabhupada!!!

Swami - August 26, 2008 8:57 pm

One thing to be said in favor of Narasimha mj's version is that not only SP's father asked every sadhu to make SP a nice devotee of Radharani, but that's what the astrologer said about him at his birth.
It doesn't prove much of anything, and in a way he did become a servant of Radharani, in the form of her representative, Nayani-mani mañjari.

Servant, not maidservant!

Vamsidhari Dasa - August 26, 2008 9:08 pm

Until then...
SVA_05__Prayer_to_the_Lotus_Feet_of_Krsna___Jayasacinandana.mp3

How sweet :Whew:

I would like to live in a place where we can sing these songs every day. Too bad I am not such a good singer. :Big Grin:

Caitanyera kripaya ki jaya!

Syamasundara - August 26, 2008 9:42 pm

Servant, not maidservant!

Right, nice. :Whew:

It would be interesting to know what the actual Bengali words were, but even then, a horoscope refers to a material birth (son of a Calcutta cloth merchant), not to one's siddha-svarupa.

Madan Gopal Das - September 2, 2008 12:48 am

Memories interviews - Tamal Krsna Goswami:

Prabhupada once gave me a lugdoo... a lugloo as Prabhuapada called it, and he asked me what my impression was. I tasted it and I just couldn't believe the taste, I said 'it's out of this world!' Prabhupada said "you're right." He said that "this is the same recipe that mother Yasoda cooks for Krsna when he goes out to tend the cows, and Krsna likes them so much that he keeps extras in his pockets so that he can eat them throughout the day." When Prabhupada was speaking it was very clear to me that it was mother Yasoda's recipe, and that Prabhupada knew it very well.

Babhru Das - September 4, 2008 2:03 am

Well, I just discovered on another board that Srila Prabhupada is none other than Ananga Manjari herself. "You ppl should broadcast this," this writer says. What's Vrindaranya's word for such folks? (Is it safe to say it here now?)

Syamasundara - September 4, 2008 3:27 am

:Raised Eyebrow: :Rolling Eyes: :Rolling Eyes:

If such things are sprouting already without much root in proof and siddhanta, one more spur for us to come out on the battlefield (although I don't usually like these war terms).

Syamasundara - September 4, 2008 3:29 am

What board anyway? Is it public? How does she substantiate her claim?

Babhru Das - September 7, 2008 12:46 am

It was on Audarya Fellowship. There was no support for the claim. The writer simply said the she or he had heard this, no clue from whom.

Syamasundara - November 19, 2008 10:39 am

Any update on the booklet?

Madan Gopal Das - February 18, 2009 7:00 pm

Ooooh, I'm excited to see what preaching comes from the booklet. I think it will make a big splash and stir things up, bringing more attention to Sri Caitanya Sanga and will hopefully raise the level of katha on the web. Just recently on a gurukuli list, one disciple of Narayan Maharaj has been bringing up parampara and making the argument that all disciples follow in the bhava of the guru, therefore Prabhupad is a manjari. There is not a lot of philosophical discussion about it, just one person forwarded a link to this article by Nandanandana (Stephen Knapp) which makes the same contention. Really weak.

Even Srila Prabhupada's godbrother, Srila Bhaktiprajnana Keshava Gosvami Maharaja, who gave him sannyasa initiation in 1959, has been recognized as Vinoda Manjari in his spiritual identity. Since all acharyas in our sampradaya from Srila Madhavendra Puri have the same mood as their initiating masters, it is, therefore, most likely that Srila Prabhupada, as a follower of Rupa Gosvami, is also in the same madhurya-rasa, or mood of a loving maidservant of Sri Sri Radha and Krishna. So this most beneficial line of spiritual teachers has appeared to allow us to take shelter of them through their instructions and books.

full article

Any idea when the booklet will be published/available?

Bhrigu - February 18, 2009 7:17 pm

Did you guys follow this idea that Brahma brought up?

Here’s an idea.. Idea.gif Before the article is published why not run the draft by Narsinga Maharaja and see if he finds the evidence conclusive. He is a reasonable person, and not an antagonist, so lets see if he is convinced. If not, than at least you will hear some opposing arguments based on what you have written--and then you can address them.

Swami - February 18, 2009 7:45 pm

I already know everyone's arguments inside out, backwards, upside down and sideways. However, very few know my arguments. Do I need to be sure they will be convinced to put them out there? They were not concerned with what I thought before putting theirs out there. The success of this booklet does not depend on everyone agreeing with me, but I suspect most devotees will. Let me say something else: There is a lot in the booklet, but I know more than what is in the booklet. And I am not going to sit by and let my guru be misrepresented, especially when some of this misrepresentation demeans the very sentiment he most cherishes—"only sakhya rasa," etc.

Furthermore many of the arguments out there are full of apasiddhanta, and viruddhapa siddhanta dvanta harine. We have a sacred duty in this regard.

Swami - February 18, 2009 8:26 pm

Ooooh, I'm excited to see what preaching comes from the booklet. I think it will make a big splash and stir things up, bringing more attention to Sri Caitanya Sanga and will hopefully raise the level of katha on the web. Just recently on a gurukuli list, one disciple of Narayan Maharaj has been bringing up parampara and making the argument that all disciples follow in the bhava of the guru, therefore Prabhupad is a manjari. There is not a lot of philosophical discussion about it, just one person forwarded a link to this article by Nandanandana (Stephen Knapp) which makes the same contention. Really weak.

full article

Any idea when the booklet will be published/available?

The article is being designed by Kamalaksa and Krsangi. It should be out very soon.

BTW, there is only sakhya and a tinge of dasya and vatsalya rasas in the works of Baladeva Vidyabhusana and no one can definitively prove that his followers in succession, Uddhava dasa and Jagannatha das, settled in manjari-bhava.

Because of the lack of or distortion of siddhanta in discussing this subject as well as a lack of respect for the subject, discussion of the sacred svarupa of our acaryas has become a plaything in the hands of children.

Babhru Das - February 18, 2009 10:53 pm

There is not a lot of philosophical discussion about it, just one person forwarded a link to this article by Nandanandana (Stephen Knapp) which makes the same contention. Really weak.

Really weak. Sri Nandanandana spends a lot of his time writing all sorts of speculation. I have yet to read anything written by this Godbrother that impressed me, and he's prolific enough that I find that a shame. Devotees have several times referred me to his writing about one subject or another, and I've come away shaking my head every time. No real scholarship and weak writing. I wish it were otherwise.

This is little more than a list, with a little speculation and not much thought at all. Based on what I've seen of his writing, Sri Nandanandana probably doesn't use an editor; his thinking is often weak, and his poor sense of sentence structure, etc., show that he uses neither a substantive editor nor a copy editor. Too bad. But the fact is that there's nothing in this article that indicates Srila Prabhupada is a manjari except for his assertion that it must be so. This is a shallow, ill conceived, and poorly executed presentation. This topic deserve much better.

NM's folks have a booklet out that purports to explain the real essence of Srila Prabhupada's mission. It's nicely produces and fun to look at; however, its argument ignores a great deal of the evidence regarding the essence of that mission, especially with regard to what Mahaprabhu and Srila Prabhupada came to give, to teach. As Sri Nandananda does here, their booklet asserts that Mahaprabhu came to teach only madhurya rasa. And Sri Nandanandana claims that " all acharyas in our sampradaya from Srila Madhavendra Puri have the same mood as their initiating masters." That sounds just like NM's folks to me. And not only does SN ignore any evidence that might indicate another conclusion, but he presents no evidence to support his claim. That's something my first-semester comp students usually realized they couldn't get away with by the end of the term. As one of my professors sometimes said, your saying something don't make it so.

This is not a topic for tourists.

Gaurasundara Das - February 18, 2009 11:52 pm

I can hardly wait for it to come out. Guru Maharaj and Vrindaranya have put a lot of thought and effort into it. It will be top notch. Guru Maharaj knows what he's talking about.

Citta Hari Dasa - February 20, 2009 4:28 am

It will be top notch. Guru Maharaj knows what he's talking about.

Having just finished proofreading it I can say that it is top notch for sure. And yes, he does know what he's talking about!

Swami - February 21, 2009 1:05 pm

Having just finished proofreading it I can say that it is top notch for sure. And yes, he does know what he's talking about!

Let's not forget Babhru! He knows too.

Citta Hari Dasa - February 22, 2009 5:47 pm

Let's not forget Babhru! He knows too.

Yes, of course. I didn't mean to imply that he doesn't.

Swami - February 27, 2009 3:44 pm

The book "O My Friend! O MY Friend! is now available here http://www.cowdust.us/

You can download the pdf (recommended but takes a some time) or read the web version. The book is the combined effort of all of those who have participated in this thread and especially Babhru, Vrindaranya and myself, as explained in my foreword as well as Kamalaksa and Krsangi for the pdf design and Nitaisundara and Gurunistha for their contributions in prof reading and designing the sanga email promotion piece. My thanks to everyone.

Please note that there is a page at the end of the book that allows readers to submit comments. The pdf version also has this page and it links to the web version where the comments will be displayed. I encourage you all to submit comments, but I do not want comments like "Jaya Guru Maharaja," etc., but rather mature comments even if they be only appreciations and thanks done tastefully.

Although the book is a combined writing effort, note that Babhru is the author and it is he who was able to secure permission from the BBT for the use of all of the photos of Prabhupada. I do not think they would have given me permission. Thus we have been careful to avoid mentioning who designed and published it. So keep this in mind when you comment.

Srila Prabhupada ki jaya!

Babhru Das - February 27, 2009 4:04 pm

I just want to thank everyone who helped bring this about. That includes everyone who participated in the thread, as well as everyone who wrote us to encourage the effort. I'm especially grateful to Swami for giving me this project, and to him and Vrindaranya for all their other work. And I'm grateful to Kamalaksa and Krsangi for their design work, as well as to Nitai and Gurunistha for their proofreading and to Gaurasundara, Mayapuracandra, and Brajasundari for their kind words of encouragement. Now let's see what fun ensues!

And y'all can do the "Jaya Guru Maharaja" things here, of course.

Swami - February 27, 2009 4:41 pm

Here is what I wrote to Narasingha Maharaja: Note that Guru Maharaja here refers to Pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja.

Gosai,

Here is a link to the article I mentioned. I think it will shake up Narayana Maharaja's group with their insistence that Prabhupada cannot be in sakhya rasa, contrary to the position of Guru Maharaja. The article is very comprehensive in my opinion. I hope you will read it over very carefully, including the endnotes. It should cause quite a stir. I recommend the pdf version. Note that I have not sent this to anyone but you as of yet.

Personally I see the Radha dasyam influence in your life coming from Guru Maharaja. Of course I am also his follower, as you are also a follower of Srila Prabhupada. For some reason you have gone in one direction and I in another. I am quite happy with the understanding that GM is in gopi bhava and SP is in sakhya bhava and I am a follower of both of them. I know that you have tried to bring them both under the same sentiment, but I do not see this as necessary. In my humble opinion this effort is a bit forced and not the natural conclusion supported by the evidence and personal opinion of GM. I hope you will not find fault with me, your old friend.

http://www.cowdust.us/

Swami

PS. Also please note that there is a link for comments at the end of the article in both the web and pdf editions and that comments entered will be published on the web edition. We would be honored if you chose to comment and help keep any discussion on the highest level.

Madan Gopal Das - February 27, 2009 5:47 pm

Congratulations and thank you Babhru prabhu for taking on this project and for how it has wonderfully manifested. Thank you to all the devotees who participated and contributed in this glorious work. Thank you most of all to Guru Maharaj who has overseen, ordered it to happen, contributed, and let us all witness his fearless enthusiasm to glorify Prabhupada in this way. My dandavats again and again to you all. I for one am so enlivened to see this work generate wonderful katha for the worldwide community of devotees. :Batting Eyelashes:

Syama Gopala Dasa - February 27, 2009 6:56 pm

I've tried to download the .pdf but only got a one-page pdf...

I also did not see a Sanga email highlighting the booklet, not sure if it was sent.

Vrindaranya Dasi - February 27, 2009 7:02 pm

I've tried to download the .pdf but only got a one-page pdf...

I also did not see a Sanga email highlighting the booklet, not sure if it was sent.

That's weird. Could you try downloading again? Several of us have downloaded it with no problem.

As for the Sanga email, we will be sending it out soon.

Vrindaranya Dasi - February 27, 2009 7:09 pm

I just tried downloading again and I got all 76 pages.

Bhrigu - February 27, 2009 7:44 pm

Please accept my respectful dandavats, Babhru, Guru Maharaja and everyone who has contributed! I am very much impressed with how the booklet turned out, and look forward to any discussion that it will create. Very powerful stuff! (That the graphic side is excellent goes without saying.)

I had no problem downloading.

Madan Gopal Das - February 27, 2009 8:06 pm

Letting you know that the link in the first endnote is bad, it does not link to the whole text you have and therefore does not lead to the sanga.

Madan Gopal Das - February 27, 2009 8:15 pm

That would be in the pdf version, where you can click the link.

Gaurasundara Das - February 27, 2009 8:35 pm

wow! really great job everyone.

Syama Gopala Dasa - February 27, 2009 8:37 pm

I just tried downloading again and I got all 76 pages.

I downloaded it again and found out what the problem is. The pdf is not compatible with the new version of Safari and Preview. It doesn't have any problems in Adobe Reader. I use the first two, so couldn't open it. Tried it on my iphone and on the iphone version of Safari it does work as well...

Okay better start reading this.

Swami - February 27, 2009 8:46 pm

I downloaded it again and found out what the problem is. The pdf is not compatible with the new version of Safari and Preview. It doesn't have any problems in Adobe Reader. I use the first two, so couldn't open it. Tried it on my iphone and on the iphone version of Safari it does work as well...

Okay better start reading this.

You must be using the new beta version of safari.

Vrindaranya Dasi - February 27, 2009 8:49 pm

Letting you know that the link in the first endnote is bad, it does not link to the whole text you have and therefore does not lead to the sanga.

Thank you. The original web page that Guru Maharaja quoted from in his article is no longer online, so I had to link to Guru Maharaja's article itself. Some people might question that, so I'd rather not make it any easier for people to go to the Sanga and realize that. The form of the endnote is the standard style for references; it would be in that form for printed material also, so I think it is OK not to link it.

Syamasundara - February 27, 2009 9:00 pm

We are happy! We are glad! We are proud!

As I remember telling Citta Hari many times since my beginning in Eugene, "We are pioneers, we are making history!"

So, here we go again, but this booklet is the apex so far.

As I think I already expressed earlier in this same thread, everything said and accomplished about this issue (SP's sakhya rati) just fills me with pride. :Applause:

Vrindaranya Dasi - February 27, 2009 9:03 pm

That would be in the pdf version, where you can click the link.

Oh, it looks like I misunderstood you. I thought you meant that the url for the Sanga in the footnote on the web version doesn't have a hyperlink.

I looked at the pdf version and I couldn't figure out what you meant. When I click endnote 1 on p. 26, it takes me to a full page view of p. 72.

Syamasundara - February 27, 2009 9:05 pm

Oh, and I liked the image of SP joining Krsna for lunch when he departed. I wonder what time on Earth it was.

Madan Gopal Das - February 27, 2009 9:20 pm

I looked at the pdf version and I couldn't figure out what you meant. When I click endnote 1 on p. 26, it takes me to a full page view of p. 72.

But on page 72 endnote 1 (pdf) the referenced sanga becomes a link and when you click it leads to here:link because the link is only to part of the url. Hope that makes sense. Maybe with the logic you have for the web version, you could make that not a link in the pdf version - though it is a REALLY nice sanga!

Madan Gopal Das - February 27, 2009 9:31 pm

I know nothing about web design, but is it possible to make the comments page rss, so we(I) can receive new comments when they are posted without visiting the page? If that is a foolish question, just don't bother answering. :Applause:

Nitaisundara Das - February 27, 2009 10:12 pm

Letting you know that the link in the first endnote is bad, it does not link to the whole text you have and therefore does not lead to the sanga.

hmmm I think I know what your talking about... if you click the www.swami.org..... link it goes to an ugly page with all sorts of folders. The wierd thing is this was never intended to be a link. maybe the pdf readers automatically link text that has http://www.[whatever].com. all the links are done manually. I wonder if there is a way to un-link it.

Vrindaranya Dasi - February 27, 2009 10:25 pm

But on page 72 endnote 1 (pdf) the referenced sanga becomes a link and when you click it leads to here:link because the link is only to part of the url. Hope that makes sense. Maybe with the logic you have for the web version, you could make that not a link in the pdf version - though it is a REALLY nice sanga!

Ah, I see what you are saying now. Acrobat has added that link automatically, and unfortunately there is no way for me to remove it. I can create a user-defined link and that will override that automatic one. I would prefer no link, but a bad link is worse. I'll upload it later. I'm afraid overwriting the file while someone is trying to download. Thanks for pointing it out.

Vrindaranya Dasi - February 27, 2009 10:27 pm

I know nothing about web design, but is it possible to make the comments page rss, so we(I) can receive new comments when they are posted without visiting the page? If that is a foolish question, just don't bother answering.

If you leave a comment and enter your email address (which can be hidden in the post), there is a check box to notify you of new posts.

Babhru Das - February 27, 2009 10:31 pm

On the Audarya Fellowship board, a godbrother suggested that the article will upset some ISKCON folks. Someone else left this quotation in response:

"When an individual endeavors to lift himself above his fellows, he is dragged down by the mass, either by means of ridicule or of calumny. No one shall be more virtuous or more intellectually gifted than others. Whoever, by the irresistible force of genius, rises above the common herd is certain to be ostracized by society, which will pursue him with such merciless derision and detraction that at last he will be compelled to retreat into the solitude of his thoughts." Heinrich Heine (poet)

Apparently, this was posted by the same person who posted the lovely excerpt from the Masters poem in the site's second comment.

Babhru Das - February 27, 2009 10:35 pm

Oh, and I liked the image of SP joining Krsna for lunch when he departed.

That, I believe, was Swami's vision. The instant I read it, I believed it.

I wonder what time on Earth it was.

Around 7:30 pm in Vrindavan, I think.

Madan Gopal Das - February 27, 2009 11:19 pm

Apparently, this was posted by the same person who posted the lovely excerpt from the Masters poem in the site's second comment.

I remember a certain Sukhada from his :Applause: other internet exploits. link

Vrindaranya Dasi - February 27, 2009 11:43 pm

Babhru Das - February 27, 2009 11:48 pm

I remember a certain Sukhada from his other internet exploits. link

:Applause: Oh, now I remember. You wascally wabbit! :LMAO: Anyway, that Sukhada is all right with me. :Hug:

Swami - February 28, 2009 12:02 am

Oh, and I liked the image of SP joining Krsna for lunch when he departed. I wonder what time on Earth it was.

To me. this is the highlight of the book. It is this lila that Prabhupada repeatedly refers to in the book (three times I think) when he speaks of having lunch with Krsna. Sometimes while speaking about it, it is as if he is absorbed in mantra-mayi upasana and then it flows to svarasiki as he adds new details. It is in this lila that his often cited verse "sakam vijahruh krta-punya-punjah" is found. It is this lila that Krsna. the supreme personality of Godhead comes out through the mouth of Brahma, as cited by Sri Krsnadasa Kaviraja. And it is here that Prabhupada entered, with the calves.

Vrindaranya Dasi - February 28, 2009 1:05 am

The Sanga announcement was sent out around 1:30 today and a Tattva-viveka announcement was made around 4:00. Guru Maharaja did not receive the Sanga announcement, and we're afraid that a lot of the emails may have been blocked by spam software. I would appreciate knowing if others who usually receive the Sanga didn't receive the Sanga announcement today. It is in color and has a picture of Srila Prabhupada offering arotika to Krsna-Balarama. We're thinking of possibly sending out the promo again.

Nitaisundara Das - February 28, 2009 1:41 am

I did not get it in my spam folder even

Madan Gopal Das - February 28, 2009 1:48 am

I recently changed my email and subscribed to sanga with the new address. I didn't receive anything from sanga at my old address or the new.

Prema-bhakti - February 28, 2009 3:39 am

I didn't receive anything either.

Citta Hari Dasa - February 28, 2009 3:41 am

Me either, at least not in my inbox. If it was in my spam file I would not know it because I just delete them en masse without looking at them.

Babhru Das - February 28, 2009 3:49 am

Nor did I--not even in spam--in either of my accounts.

Nitaisundara Das - February 28, 2009 3:53 am

well I suppose it is better that they malfunctioned than that they are all going to be intercepted.

Madhavendra Puri Dasa - February 28, 2009 8:11 am

I haven't recive anything.

Syama Gopala Dasa - February 28, 2009 8:57 am

You must be using the new beta version of safari.

Yes I'm in beta.

I also did not receive the Sanga mail.

Syamasundara - February 28, 2009 10:20 am

I got it.

Bhrigu - February 28, 2009 10:23 am

I got it, but in my Spam folder.

Vrindaranya Dasi - February 28, 2009 11:22 am

I've sent out the Sanga announcement again, unfortunately as plain text and not the color promotion. It was really nice, but it seems that it was mostly being flagged as junk mail since it is an html email. Too bad.

Not many comments yet...get the heck up there! :Applause:

Doesn't need to be anything fancy. Someone named Steve said, "Stunning."

The url for comments is www.cowdust.us/pages/comments.php

Nitaisundara Das - February 28, 2009 12:14 pm

I didnt get the second anga mail.... I have my settings set not to delete junkmail there must be another reason I am not getting them?

Madan Gopal Das - February 28, 2009 12:26 pm

again, I didn't receive in two different email addresses.

Vrindaranya Dasi - February 28, 2009 12:32 pm

Urgh! I made a mistake in the SMTP server. I'm sending again.

We're having a problem with the power, which we need to figure out. Our batteries are low. I hope the power doesn't cut out before the whole list is done sending. About one-third done so far. :Applause:

Madan Gopal Das - February 28, 2009 12:51 pm

Got it!

Vrindaranya Dasi - February 28, 2009 1:06 pm

They all went out!

Madhavendra Puri Dasa - February 28, 2009 1:17 pm

Got it this time :Applause:

Babhru Das - February 28, 2009 2:22 pm

That fellow Sukhada is doing a good job at Audarya Fellowship. Does anyone know if "mud" is one of us?

Vrindaranya Dasi - February 28, 2009 2:31 pm

I'm suspecting a certain prabhu of the same first letter.

Madan Gopal Das - February 28, 2009 2:54 pm

my name is mud - :Applause:

I wanted to post with my regular account but it won't let me for some reason, so I used an old undercover one. Is Sonic Yogi the reincarnation of Ksamabuddhi? Sure sounds like him, same as ever. I have stayed off that board for a long time and his opinions were at least some of the reason why. I hope that some enthusiasm for good discussion transfers to the comments page. I'm afraid that AF thread will just be endless argument. Is there any facility for monitoring the cowdust comments page?

Babhru Das - February 28, 2009 2:59 pm

Yes, Sonic Yogi is Ksamabuddhi, Sparky Photon back from the dead. He had been absent for so long that I began to consider giving him a call to see if he's still alive. So far, even though he lives about five miles from here, we haven't met yet.

I'm still waiting for some of the folks there who are affiliated with a certain group to start freaking out.

Citta Hari Dasa - February 28, 2009 4:43 pm

Got it.

Prema-bhakti - February 28, 2009 5:00 pm

Did anyone see Madhava Maharaja's second comment on Babhru's article? He quotes a verse from Kali das that sounds like it is from the madhurya perspective, a gopi longing to see Krsna in the daytime. I don't get it?

Nitaisundara Das - February 28, 2009 5:04 pm

I would think that verse might relate to one GM has mentioned where the gopis are praising the cowherd bows as most fortunate because they can walk arm-in-arm with Krsna in the broad daylight(in front of everyone). So Madhava Maharaja was highlighting a similar thing, the special position of sakhas.

Prema-bhakti - February 28, 2009 5:28 pm

I would think that verse might relate to one GM has mentioned where the gopis are praising the cowherd bows as most fortunate because they can walk arm-in-arm with Krsna in the broad daylight(in front of everyone). So Madhava Maharaja was highlighting a similar thing, the special position of sakhas.

Nice Nitai. I needed some commentary on that one.

Atmananda Dasa - February 28, 2009 7:22 pm

Is it a good idea to write something to chakra, dandavats, etc. just to let the world know that the booklet is available to read?

Vrindaranya Dasi - February 28, 2009 8:26 pm

Babhru submitted something to both yesterday. Chakra has accepted but as far as I know there has been no response from Dandavats as of yet.

Babhru Das - February 28, 2009 8:29 pm

I submitted the announcement to Chakra, VINA, the Samradaya Sun, and Dandavats. I heard back from Chakra immediately, partly because Madhusudani is a trouble maker and partly because we're friends. I haven't heard back from the other sites yet.

I also placed the announcement on the Prabhupada Disciples conference on pamho.net. I've had a couple of nice responses so far, including a couple of devotees who agree with me that Swami should be on that conference.

Swami - February 28, 2009 9:02 pm

This just in in response from Swami BG Narasingha Maharaja. He is an honest man.

Swami,

Some things just can't wait. Vidagdha Madhava Prabhu wrote me to query what I thought about the article/pdf book. So I set aside some time and carefully went thru several chapters. Impressive won't suffice to describe how well put together and convincing a job you and Babhru have done. Excellent!

However, I'm not sure I like the idea of a discussion on the internet — I mean, what more is there to say without getting into arguments? Devotees will either agree with you or they won't. I don't think the Narayana Maharaja followers will dare to reproach your presentation, they would have to be complete fools to try — the risk of further exposing their gurudeva as being antagonistic to Srila Sridhara Maharaja.

Well done Swami — I'm a believer! I'm just not advanced enough to make more of it than that. I guess the only thing left to do now is get more cows!

Gosai

Vrindaranya Dasi - February 28, 2009 9:21 pm

This is an incredible victory! :dance: :Party:

Swami - February 28, 2009 9:25 pm

We just got our first donation from the book:

May all your dreams come true!

Love, Krishna Mohan Das

$20.00

Radhakunda Das - February 28, 2009 9:44 pm

Got it. Wow

Madan Gopal Das - February 28, 2009 9:53 pm

Well done Swami — I'm a believer! I'm just not advanced enough to make more of it than that. I guess the only thing left to do now is get more cows!

Gosai

This is just sweet as sweet can be.

Syama Gopala Dasa - February 28, 2009 10:24 pm

I read the booklet and was reminded of a question I asked Guru Maharaj 4,5 years ago. Why Srila Prabhupada did not install deities of Sri Chaitanya

Mahaprabhu-Radha-Krishna in his temples? Guru Maharaj answered:

"Srila Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada also installed these Deities in Mayapura and Calcutta. Unfortunately his disciples changed this in Mayapura. My Guru Maharaja did not install these Deities abroad because his entire campaign was empowered by Nityananda Prabhu. Thus he installed Gaura Nitayanada everywhere, as well as Radha Krsna in many places."

I now know more.

Babhru Das - March 1, 2009 11:39 am

Apparently, the Sampradaya Sun got the announcement up even before Chakra. Still waiting for VINA, although I don't anticipate any problem. Paramadvaiti Maharaja is very friendly to Swami and to me. They're just slow, I guess.

Babhru Das - March 2, 2009 3:38 pm

The announcement is now on Dandavats, in their Ads and Announcements scroll at the top of the page. I might not have noticed it myself, but Trivikrama Swami pointed it out on pamho's Prabhupada Disciples conference.

Babhru Das - March 2, 2009 3:45 pm

I just got a note from Jayadvaita Swami, who was turned on to the booklet by Tattvavit das. JS wrote, "Yes, I've seen Babhru's piece. Sensible. Happy preaching. Hare Krsna."

Nitaisundara Das - March 2, 2009 5:01 pm

Sri Caitanya Sanga SET(Siddhanta Enforcement Team) strikes again. :dance: :Party:

Like SSM said, you can build big walls, but Krsna is a thief, so he can find a way in.

Vrindaranya Dasi - March 3, 2009 7:42 am

According to the statistics on our web server, there have been 1009 downloads of the booklet and 3537 page views!

Babhru Das - March 3, 2009 12:28 pm

I was just about to ask. The virus has been planted! :)

Atmananda Dasa - March 3, 2009 3:26 pm

I was little surprised to see Tamohara dasa (ACBSP) wrote a favorable comment. I think that he's actually on the GBC.

Babhru Das - March 3, 2009 4:17 pm

From the email address, it appears it's the other Tamohara das, an audiologist in Canada. I saw Tamohara the GBC this morning, and he didn't say anything. Several devotees here in Alachua have expressed their appreciation, and a couple have asked about a print version.

Nitaisundara Das - March 3, 2009 5:14 pm

The Canadian Tamohara also requested a copy of Our Affectionate Guardians when we offered them free on the (appa)Sampradaya Sun.

WOW 1009 downloads! Thats awesome!! :) :ph34r:

Swami - March 3, 2009 8:21 pm

From Dhanurdhara Maharaja:

"I’ve forwarded the article to a few I respect intellectually. It was appreciated as a scholarly, balanced and well argued presentation on a difficult topic. When I have time I will carefully look at it and give an educated response."

Guru-nistha Das - March 3, 2009 10:03 pm

According to the statistics on our web server, there have been 1009 downloads of the booklet and 3537 page views!

Wow! This is great news!

Babhru Das - March 5, 2009 1:14 am

The announcement is now up on Chakra. However, it has been erased from Dandavats.

Syamasundara - March 5, 2009 1:49 am

According to the statistics on our web server, there have been 1009 downloads of the booklet and 3537 page views!

I wonder how many now after one day...

Vrindaranya Dasi - March 5, 2009 2:43 am

1300 more page views in the last two days.

Babhru Das - March 6, 2009 9:16 pm

I did ask the Dandavats editors why they took the link down. Their reply: "Too many complaints." Didn't they read the article before posting the link? (So much for my reputation there. :Praying: :Batting Eyelashes: )

Swami - March 7, 2009 3:50 am

I did ask the Dandavats editors why they took the link down. Their reply: "Too many complaints." Didn't they read the article before posting the link? (So much for my reputation there. :Batting Eyelashes: )

What was the nature of the complaints?

Bijaya Kumara Das - March 7, 2009 5:52 am

Here is what I wrote to Narasingha Maharaja: Note that Guru Maharaja here refers to Pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja.

Gosai,

Here is a link to the article I mentioned. I think it will shake up Narayana Maharaja's group with their insistence that Prabhupada cannot be in sakhya rasa, contrary to the position of Guru Maharaja. The article is very comprehensive in my opinion. I hope you will read it over very carefully, including the endnotes. It should cause quite a stir. I recommend the pdf version. Note that I have not sent this to anyone but you as of yet.

Personally I see the Radha dasyam influence in your life coming from Guru Maharaja. Of course I am also his follower, as you are also a follower of Srila Prabhupada. For some reason you have gone in one direction and I in another. I am quite happy with the understanding that GM is in gopi bhava and SP is in sakhya bhava and I am a follower of both of them. I know that you have tried to bring them both under the same sentiment, but I do not see this as necessary. In my humble opinion this effort is a bit forced and not the natural conclusion supported by the evidence and personal opinion of GM. I hope you will not find fault with me, your old friend.

http://www.cowdust.us/

Swami

PS. Also please note that there is a link for comments at the end of the article in both the web and pdf editions and that comments entered will be published on the web edition. We would be honored if you chose to comment and help keep any discussion on the highest level.

Sweet Guru Maharaja. It is nice to see your convictions.

Bijaya Kumara Das - March 8, 2009 4:38 am

The Sanga announcement was sent out around 1:30 today and a Tattva-viveka announcement was made around 4:00. Guru Maharaja did not receive the Sanga announcement, and we're afraid that a lot of the emails may have been blocked by spam software. I would appreciate knowing if others who usually receive the Sanga didn't receive the Sanga announcement today. It is in color and has a picture of Srila Prabhupada offering arotika to Krsna-Balarama. We're thinking of possibly sending out the promo again.

I do not get any sanga announcements any more or for a long time now. my email is groveey@wildlblue.net

Babhru Das - March 8, 2009 11:57 am

What was the nature of the complaints?

They didn't elaborate, saying that they thought I'd be able to guess. So I assume it was the confidential nature of the subject, probably your involvement, and the extensive citation of Srila Sridhara Maharaja.

Swami - March 8, 2009 7:03 pm

They didn't elaborate, saying that they thought I'd be able to guess. So I assume it was the confidential nature of the subject, probably your involvement, and the extensive citation of Srila Sridhara Maharaja.

Regardring the "confidential nature of the subject" the Caitanya-caritamrita dedicates the entire third and fourth chapters of the adi-lila to exploring the nature of the inner life of Caitanya Mahaprabhu. So there is a place for that.

Babhru Das - March 8, 2009 10:20 pm

I also thought about those chapters as a sort of analog. Some devotees who object to discussing such things point out that on a couple of occasions Srila Prabhupada asserted that we do not "require" to discuss his inner life. But one Godbrother pointed out that one of the devotees who reports this remark is prone to exaggeration. Moreover, I have pointed out in several places, including the Prabhupada's Disciples conference on pamho, that it was not I who wrote that "Prayer to the Lotus Feet of Krishna," but Srila Prabhupada. And, although he never circulated it among us, he also did not destroy it. And it was not I who instructed that Harsharani's poem be published in Back to Godhead, but Srila Prabhupada. He left a clear trail of hints that lead, I believe, to a lake of nectar. Who, on finding that lake, will desist from drinking its waters? Who will desist from bathing in it?

We are all indebted to our Swami for shining a light on those hints as we encountered them.

Vrindaranya Dasi - March 9, 2009 1:47 am

I also thought about those chapters as a sort of analog. Some devotees who object to discussing such things point out that on a couple of occasions Srila Prabhupada asserted that we do not "require" to discuss his inner life. But one Godbrother pointed out that one of the devotees who reports this remark is prone to exaggeration. Moreover, I have pointed out in several places, including the Prabhupada's Disciples conference on pamho, that it was not I who wrote that "Prayer to the Lotus Feet of Krishna," but Srila Prabhupada. And, although he never circulated it among us, he also did not destroy it. And it was not I who instructed that Harsharani's poem be published in Back to Godhead, but Srila Prabhupada. He left a clear trail of hints that lead, I believe, to a lake of nectar. Who, on finding that lake, will desist from drinking its waters? Who will desist from bathing in it?

We are all indebted to our Swami for shining a light on those hints as we encountered them.

Nice reply!

Swami - March 9, 2009 10:38 pm

This just in from Sacinandana Swami:

"I can't find the proper words to sufficiently thank you for the publication

of "O My Friend! " Very thought stimulating and satisfying to the heart. I

am still processing, and thinking about the subject and information. The

mystery has so many layers.

But it made me turn deeply to Srila Prabhupada in heartfelt gratitude and

deep fascination.

What a nice seva you and your associates have done!

And how important to highlight sakhya rasa. Even Sanatana Goswami did it in

BB - as was written."

Gaura-Vijaya Das - March 9, 2009 11:44 pm

This just in from Sacinandana Swami:

"I can't find the proper words to sufficiently thank you for the publication

of "O My Friend! " Very thought stimulating and satisfying to the heart. I

am still processing, and thinking about the subject and information. The

mystery has so many layers.

But it made me turn deeply to Srila Prabhupada in heartfelt gratitude and

deep fascination.

What a nice seva you and your associates have done!

And how important to highlight sakhya rasa. Even Sanatana Goswami did it in

BB - as was written."

It is not in the public comments. So are some people replying privately to express their opinions?

Swami - March 10, 2009 12:50 am

It is not in the public comments. So are some people are replying privately to express their opinions?

Yes.

Babhru Das - March 10, 2009 12:33 pm

This just in from Sacinandana Swami:

"I can't find the proper words to sufficiently thank you for the publication

of "O My Friend! " Very thought stimulating and satisfying to the heart. I

am still processing, and thinking about the subject and information. The

mystery has so many layers.

But it made me turn deeply to Srila Prabhupada in heartfelt gratitude and

deep fascination.

What a nice seva you and your associates have done!

And how important to highlight sakhya rasa. Even Sanatana Goswami did it in

BB - as was written."

I'm one of Swami's associates! How cool is that? :Cool:

Madhavendra Puri Dasa - March 10, 2009 1:18 pm

So I guess as a private letters (as this one from Sacinandana Maharaja) they are not to be distributed around? Or are they? Quoting words of such senior devotees would be helpfull in changing the mind of some fanatics. For example Braja Sundari placed link to the ebook on Iskcon forum and immediately it was attacked as not bona fide, against Prabhupada's spirit, and Gaudiya Math influence. It would be great to provide for excample that letter of Sacinandana Swami. Otherwise devotees in Poland unfortunately are in opinion that Iskcon means only the conservative and sometimes fanatical point of view, of the leaders who preach there.

Babhru Das - March 10, 2009 1:55 pm

I also found that links on ISKCON sites which picked it up from Dandavats have been erased. I found this through a Google search. And a Bengali devotee here told me yesterday that a big ISKCON guru/sannyasi/GBC asked him his opinion of the booklet--in confidence. He asked this devotee not to tell me, so I can't find out who he is. It's a little weird out there, folks.

Braja-sundari Dasi - March 10, 2009 1:59 pm

So I guess as a private letters (as this one from Sacinandana Maharaja) they are not to be distributed around? Or are they? Quoting words of such senior devotees would be helpfull in changing the mind of some fanatics. For example Braja Sundari placed link to the ebook on Iskcon forum and immediately it was attacked as not bona fide, against Prabhupada's spirit, and Gaudiya Math influence. It would be great to provide for excample that letter of Sacinandana Swami. Otherwise devotees in Poland unfortunately are in opinion that Iskcon means only the conservative and sometimes fanatical point of view, of the leaders who preach there.

Honestly speaking I would rather think they will start to criticize Sacinandana Maharaja as they do with other senior devotees who dare to do or say something not exactly matching their understanding of Prabhupada`s spirit. One of the persons who objected to my post is an active member of Pada forum

Swami - March 10, 2009 2:07 pm

I also found that links on ISKCON sites which picked it up from Dandavats have been erased. I found this through a Google search. And a Bengali devotee here told me yesterday that a big ISKCON guru/sannyasi/GBC asked him his opinion of the booklet--in confidence. He asked this devotee not to tell me, so I can't find out who he is. It's a little weird out there, folks.

What did the Bengali devotee think of the book? What did he tell the Guru?

Babhru Das - March 10, 2009 2:30 pm

What did the Bengali devotee think of the book? What did he tell the Guru?

He hasn't seen it yet. He doesn't do online, so I'll print a copy out for him. He's quite learned and has connections outside ISKCON, including NM's group here.

Bhrigu - March 10, 2009 4:23 pm

So I guess as a private letters (as this one from Sacinandana Maharaja) they are not to be distributed around?

Nothing that has been posted on Tattvaviveka should ever be quoted anywhere else without the express permission of the author of that text. We've had problems with that before, so better be very careful about this.

Babhru Das - March 10, 2009 4:31 pm

A Godbrother wrote on the Prabhupada's Disciples list asking "why make it a public topic?" My reply was,

With regard to the confidential nature of the topic, I sympathize with everyone's concern and respect their inclination to be reserved about such topics. I mean, it's not as though I've never heard that conversation cited before. And it also not as though I'm some sort of attention grabber, running around calling attention to myself. I have been quite reticent about posting on this conference; in fact, I just erased several drafts that I decided not to share here. And I'm not one of those folks who posts something every other day on those Web sites.

But we may also want to consider a couple of other factors. One is that Sri Chaitanya-charitamrita discusses Mahaprabhu's inner life in some detail in a couple of chapters in Ad-lila, as well as at the end. What could be accomplished by revealing things He never discussed Himself, except with three or four most intimate associates? And some things, for that matter, He insisted be kept confidential? Moreover, as I have pointed out in several places, including here, it was not I who wrote that "Prayer to the Lotus Feet of Krishna," but Srila Prabhupada. And, although he never circulated it among us, he also did not destroy it. And it was not I who instructed that Harsharani's poem be published in Back to Godhead, but Srila Prabhupada. It appears to some of us that he left a clear trail of hints that lead, I believe, to a lake of nectar. Who, on finding that lake, would desist from drinking its waters? Who would desist from bathing in it?

His response to that: "Your points are well taken. I agree. Thank you."

Swami - March 10, 2009 5:52 pm

A Godbrother wrote on the Prabhupada's Disciples list asking "why make it a public topic?" My reply was,
With regard to the confidential nature of the topic, I sympathize with everyone's concern and respect their inclination to be reserved about such topics. I mean, it's not as though I've never heard that conversation cited before. And it also not as though I'm some sort of attention grabber, running around calling attention to myself. I have been quite reticent about posting on this conference; in fact, I just erased several drafts that I decided not to share here. And I'm not one of those folks who posts something every other day on those Web sites.

But we may also want to consider a couple of other factors. One is that Sri Chaitanya-charitamrita discusses Mahaprabhu's inner life in some detail in a couple of chapters in Ad-lila, as well as at the end. What could be accomplished by revealing things He never discussed Himself, except with three or four most intimate associates? And some things, for that matter, He insisted be kept confidential? Moreover, as I have pointed out in several places, including here, it was not I who wrote that "Prayer to the Lotus Feet of Krishna," but Srila Prabhupada. And, although he never circulated it among us, he also did not destroy it. And it was not I who instructed that Harsharani's poem be published in Back to Godhead, but Srila Prabhupada. It appears to some of us that he left a clear trail of hints that lead, I believe, to a lake of nectar. Who, on finding that lake, would desist from drinking its waters? Who would desist from bathing in it?

His response to that: "Your points are well taken. I agree. Thank you."

Excellent!

Vrindaranya Dasi - March 10, 2009 5:53 pm

I started reading the Srila Sridhara Maharaja folio, which begins with a conversation between Srila Sridhara Maharaja and Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada describes his going to America to preach, and he makes the following very interesting comment:

Srila Prabhupada: And Guru Maharaja wanted that, yet those Gaudiya Math people did not do anything. So: "Let me try in this old age in a special camp," and I went [to the West] by his grace and it has become a big success. But I have no credit. It is all the blessings of guru and Vaisnavas, that's all. I have no credit. I do not know how things are happening because I am not at all in a bona fide position. I did it through tadiya vaisnava seva nistha.

What could this "special camp" be?

Madhavendra Puri Dasa - March 10, 2009 7:50 pm

Nothing that has been posted on Tattvaviveka should ever be quoted anywhere else without the express permission of the author of that text.

That's why I asked. I wasn't sure what's the character of Maharaja's letter - is it a private one, or something general.

Atmananda Dasa - March 11, 2009 1:43 am

Regarding Srila Prabhupada's Prayer To The Lotus Feet of Krishna , is there a verse by verse translation available for singing the bhajan, or to be included in a song book that is accurate and in keeping with Srila Sridhar Maharaja's translation of the song?

Atmananda Dasa - March 11, 2009 1:56 am

I started reading the Srila Sridhara Maharaja folio, which begins with a conversation between Srila Sridhara Maharaja and Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada describes his going to America to preach, and he makes the following very interesting comment:

Srila Prabhupada: And Guru Maharaja wanted that, yet those Gaudiya Math people did not do anything. So: "Let me try in this old age in a special camp," and I went [to the West] by his grace and it has become a big success. But I have no credit. It is all the blessings of guru and Vaisnavas, that's all. I have no credit. I do not know how things are happening because I am not at all in a bona fide position. I did it through tadiya vaisnava seva nistha.

What could this "special camp" be?

:Cool: Is it the camp of Sri Nityananda and the dvadasa gopals!!!?

Madan Gopal Das - March 11, 2009 3:00 am

From Bhakta das' eulogy of Sripad B.V. Puri Maharaj:

What can I say except I am crying, feeling the separation pain, yet feeling happiness because he is now running in the forest of eternal Vrindaban with Srila Prabhupada and they are both dragging this helplessly fallen soul out of this place of misery, in spite of my unwillingness to leave.

Does anybody know if Puri Maharaj spoke of Prabhupada's internal life at all? Also wondering if some of those devotees who took his siksa (Gurukrpa, Bhakta das, other Prabhupada disciples) have commented on the book.

Vrindaranya Dasi - March 11, 2009 3:21 am

Also wondering if some of those devotees who took his siksa (Gurukrpa, Bhakta das, other Prabhupada disciples) have commented on the book.

Bhakta Dasa

01 Mar 2009, 01:25

Dear Prabhus,

I am very happy to read this wonderful presentation. Personally, I also have always felt of Srila Prabhupada has Lord Krsna dear friend, although I never discuss this with anyone.

My only humble and respectdul suggestion is the cover should say HIS DIVINE GRACE because I was personally chastised by Srila Prabhupada for one allowing a small publication where this was omitted, and I have read the same and heard the same from others as well.

Nitaisundara Das - March 11, 2009 4:35 pm

Someone said on AF thread that B.V. Puri Maharaja had said he knows SP's position but did not speak about it.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - March 11, 2009 4:37 pm

Someone said on AF thread that B.V. Puri Maharaja had said he knows SP's position but did not speak about it.

What is AF?

Nitaisundara Das - March 11, 2009 5:09 pm

audarya fellowship

Babhru Das - March 11, 2009 5:19 pm

The same Godbrother I mentioned earlier, who agreed to our arguments about the confidential nature of the topic, just wrote me this note: "I would like to take a bath there.Is it in digital format? And would you send me a copy?"

His copy is, of course, in his mail box now.

Swami - March 12, 2009 3:55 am

I started reading the Srila Sridhara Maharaja folio, which begins with a conversation between Srila Sridhara Maharaja and Srila Prabhupada. Srila Prabhupada describes his going to America to preach, and he makes the following very interesting comment:

Srila Prabhupada: And Guru Maharaja wanted that, yet those Gaudiya Math people did not do anything. So: "Let me try in this old age in a special camp," and I went [to the West] by his grace and it has become a big success. But I have no credit. It is all the blessings of guru and Vaisnavas, that's all. I have no credit. I do not know how things are happening because I am not at all in a bona fide position. I did it through tadiya vaisnava seva nistha.

What could this "special camp" be?

This is a an intriguing find indeed!

Swami - March 13, 2009 4:29 pm

From Ganapati Swami:

"Personally I have no problem with the conclusion you & Babhru have drawn on the svarupa of Srila Prabhupada. It rang a lot of bells for me. Indeed, I found the essay extremely helpful in transforming previously perceived "defects" into shimmering rasika ornaments. My sincere thanks to you both."

Babhru Das - March 13, 2009 4:31 pm

:dance:

Babhru Das - March 13, 2009 4:34 pm

From Turiya das, who brought me into Prabhupada's company:

Also Govinda Dasi told me another story early on when I first came that she had made a shirt for Prabhupad with collar that looked like a cowboy shirt, when Prabupad put it on, Govinda Dasi said " Prabhupad (or maybe swamaji, not sure) you look like a cowboy. Prabhupad very quickly affirmed, "I am a cowherd boy."

Shaktimati says she remembers it that Prabhupad said "I am a cowboy"

Of course She was referring to her Texas upbringing and the cowboy shirts she had grew up around, while Srila Prabhupad was referring to His eternal identity in the abode in which he is identified with.

I've written a couple of devotees about cowboy shirts. Govinda dasi also told me this story early on, and I remember seeing pictures of Prabhupada wearing a cowboy shirt.

Swami - March 13, 2009 9:19 pm

This is from Sivarama Swami:

http://www.sivaramaswami.com/

Note the first podcast is in the upper right where it says "On Srila Prabhupada's Svarupa" (after 7 min. 20 seconds). The follow up is on the left where it says "Questioning the premise of Srila Prabhupada's Gopa Svarupa."

Chalk up another victory for the cowherds!

Nitaisundara Das - March 13, 2009 9:38 pm

JAYA-O!

Madan Gopal Das - March 13, 2009 9:44 pm

Chalk up another victory for he cowherds!

Wow, this is getting big! Nice appreciation for the book, and it is nice to know that the big whigs are talking about the book there in Mayapura during GBC/festival time. I'm glad our group and you are at the forefront of such great preaching. Damn I'm proud of my family!

Swami - March 13, 2009 9:51 pm

It is apparent that Sivarama Swami read the book closely, as his answers to Adi Karta were right out of the book itself (not only the quotes he read but everything he said.)

Hey Sridama, that's your old mentor Adi Karta still kicking.

Vrindaranya Dasi - March 13, 2009 9:51 pm

Here are the stats for cowdust.us so far:

total pages: 14,011

highest hits per hour: 2898

pdf downloads: 1603

Swami - March 13, 2009 9:56 pm

From Urmila dasi on the book:

"I have tremendous respect for Sivarama Swami and Sacinandanda Swami, including their assessment of such esoteric areas. And if Jayadvaita Swami is positive, who can criticize it as being improper?"

Babhru Das - March 13, 2009 10:35 pm

It is apparent that Sivarama Swami read the book closely, as his answers to Adi Karta were right out of the book itself (not only the quotes he read but everything he said.)

I had the same reaction. I'm a little impressed. He read it with an open mind and an open heart.

Vrindaranya Dasi - March 13, 2009 10:51 pm

I had the same reaction. I'm a little impressed. He read it with an open mind and an open heart.

I liked the way he dismissed the suggestion that Srila Prabhupada might have been saying he was a cowherd boy for some ulterior motive. It was also very interesting how he dealt with the statement of Gaura-Govinda Maharaja that Srila Prabhupada is a gopi. The way he responded to the argument about Srila Prabhupada being in sakhya-rasa necessitating a siksa-guru was also very nice.

It seems like the evidence is just too strong to oppose. People aren't even trying. I'm a little amazed, even though I knew the case was rock solid.

Most of the Iskcon heavy-weights have weighed in, and the rest were probably waiting to see their reactions. It appears the herd is heading home to Srila Prabhupada, with Guru Maharaja and Babhru leading the procession! :) :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance: :dance:

Gaura-Vijaya Das - March 14, 2009 12:04 am

I liked the way he dismissed the suggestion that Srila Prabhupada might have been saying he was a cowherd boy for some ulterior motive. It was also very interesting how he dealt with the statement of Gaura-Govinda Maharaja that Srila Prabhupada is a gopi. The way he responded to the argument about Srila Prabhupada being in sakhya-rasa necessitating a siksa-guru was also very nice.

It seems like the evidence is just too strong to oppose. People aren't even trying. I'm a little amazed, even though I knew the case was rock solid.

Most of the Iskcon heavy-weights have weighed in, and the rest were probably waiting to see their reactions. It appears the herd is heading home to Srila Prabhupada, with Guru Maharaja and Babhru leading the procession! :) :dance: :dance:

Yes only maybe JPS and HDG are left. JPS has expressed his affinity for sakhya so won't be a problem. Only BCS and DS may have some problem.

Babhru Das - March 14, 2009 12:07 am

Because it's a public podcast, I posted the link to Sivarama Swami's site on the Prabhupada's Disciples list. No response yet. I also wrote Adi Karta, inviting him to challenge me any time, as long as he has actually read the booklet.

Babhru Das - March 14, 2009 12:12 am

Yes only may JPS and HDG are left. JPS has expressed his affinity for sakhya so won't be a problem. Only BCS and DS may have some problem.

I think Sivarama Maharaja is more influential than Hridayananda Maharaja. Bhakticaru Maharaja's big things seem to be his development of Ujjain and his campaign to I make sure ISKCON recognizes Srila Prabhupada as its Founder-Acarya. By DS, do you mean Danvir Maharaja? I can't see him showing any love for either swami or me.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - March 14, 2009 12:23 am

I think Sivarama Maharaja is more influential than Hridayananda Maharaja. Bhakticaru Maharaja's big things seem to be his development of Ujjain and his campaign to I make sure ISKCON recognizes Srila Prabhupada as its Founder-Acarya. By DS, do you mean Danvir Maharaja? I can't see him showing any love for either swami or me.

Yes Danavir Swami is actually influential because of his Vedic Planetarium project. And BCS is liked by all his godbrothers as he shows extra loyalty to prabhupada and almost takes a soft ritvik position. He is also a very sweet person when people talk to him but he is especially severe on people leaving ISKCON.

And then there is Rabindra Svarupa prabhu who has influence in some intellectual ISKCON circles. BVS or TVS will not have much influence apart from their small region.

Mostly GM and you have got it all covered apart from a few people here and there.

Babhru Das - March 14, 2009 12:43 am

The virus is loose, and those who have been inoculated won't catch the fever. Everyone else, though . . .

Gaura-Vijaya Das - March 14, 2009 12:46 am

The virus is loose, and those who have been inoculated won't catch the fever. Everyone else, though . . .

Certainly . GM and Babhru ki Jai ho!!!

Swami - March 14, 2009 12:50 am

. I also wrote Adi Karta, inviting him to challenge me any time, as long as he has actually read the booklet.

Babhru Das - March 14, 2009 1:11 am

I just got a note back from Adi Karta acknowledging that the booklet was well written and that he thought Sivarama Maharaja did a good job of dealing with his misgivings. He says he's not thoroughly convinced, though, and would be happy to discuss it with me further.

Swami - March 14, 2009 3:01 am

I just got a note back from Adi Karta acknowledging that the booklet was well written and that he thought Sivarama Maharaja did a good job of dealing with his misgivings. He says he's not thoroughly convinced, though, and would be happy to discuss it with me further.

Send him my regards.

Swami - March 14, 2009 6:16 pm

From Hridyananda Maharaja:

"I appreciate your sincere and diligent attempt to

clarify the irresponsible speculations of certain devotees regarding Srila

Prabhupada's nitya swarupa. I know that Babhru is a diligent scholar and I

respect his work."

Gaura-Vijaya Das - March 14, 2009 8:11 pm

From Hridyananda Maharaja:

"I appreciate your sincere and diligent attempt to

clarify the irresponsible speculations of certain devotees regarding Srila

Prabhupada's nitya swarupa. I know that Babhru is a diligent scholar and I

respect his work."

That is really nice. Babhru prabhu ki jai!!

Prema-bhakti - March 14, 2009 8:51 pm

From Hridyananda Maharaja:

"I appreciate your sincere and diligent attempt to

clarify the irresponsible speculations of certain devotees regarding Srila

Prabhupada's nitya swarupa. I know that Babhru is a diligent scholar and I

respect his work."

Nice.

Interesting how easily the recognition and apprecition comes when you address what they want to hear.

Babhru Das - March 14, 2009 8:56 pm

That is really nice. Babhru prabhu ki jai!!

Guru Maharaja ki jaya! Sri Chaitanya Sanga ki jaya! This project was born here on TV, and it was Swami who got me going on this. And . . . Srila Prabhupada ki jaya! This was written to call attention to the breadth and depth of his character.

Atmananda Dasa - March 15, 2009 1:26 am

Nice.

Interesting how easily the recognition and apprecition comes when you address what they want to hear.

ISKCON is certainly vexing because it appears that "they" do not speak with one voice or have one conception of gaudiya siddhanta. There are devotees in ISKCON on the open, generous, thoughtful side, those on the fanatical, fundamentalist, provisional side and everywhere in between.

It appears that ISKCON has historically had periods of openness when it gains insight and inspiration from devotees outside its walls and then periods of contraction and isolationism when it rejects those very same sources of inspiration and labels them as deviant and dangerous. In some cases it is even the very same devotees who have showed both of these sides.

That being said, the potential for a true change of heart exists.

Madan Gopal Das - March 16, 2009 2:34 am

Just watched #8 (I think) of the new "Following Srila Prabhupada" videos. This one is footage of Prabhupada at the opening of Krsna Balaram mandir and GM tells his story of watching Prabhupada offer the first arati. Gurudas speaks at one point and he says how Prabhupada designed the stance that the Krsna-Balaram deities are standing in. I never knew this, but he says that previous to this, you could not get any murti of Krsna Balaram like this. He goes on to say that Prabhupada would joke with the devotees about the pose, asking "who is stronger - Krsna or Balaram?" The devotees would answer Balaram, and Prabhupad would laugh, telling them they were incorrect; Krsna is supporting Balaram.

Seems like an incredibly significant point if Prabhupad is portraying his vision of how the cowherd brothers are to be viewed - and then he has deities made in that image!

There is another explanation where Prabhupad says that Gaura-Nitai are Krsna and Balaram and that if the devotees ever have problems, they should approach either deities for help.

Yamuna tells a deep story of Prabhupada's feelings for the tamala tree in the courtyard and you get the sense that Prabhupada lives there, worships that dust in Raman-reti and is very familiar with the whole place. It is amazing. You really get the sense from this event that Prabhupada was meant to be there, establish that temple in his neighborhood, expand the prominence of that area of vraja, the glory of sakhya rasa and his homey-ness there really comes across. Plenty of gems to be mined from this footage and from devotees accounts.

Highly recommended viewing. If you don't have one GM, we will send it to you.

Babhru Das - March 16, 2009 3:10 am

One sannyasi Godbrother who can be a little cranky wrote a note this morning. He quoted an email he had just received that cited Gour-Govinda Maharaja as saying that Prabhupada is a gopi and complained that this is the problem with this topic: how do you prove who's right? My response:

Have you read my essay? Those who have read it closely know that there is no attempt to prove anyone right or wrong with regard to their understanding of Srila Prabhupada's inner life. I do address the fact that others see something else. I'm just compiling the external evidence available;;what it shows is not that Gour-Govinda Maharaja is wrong and I'm right, but that the argument that Prabhupada cannot be in anything other than gopi-bhava, and more specifically in manjari-bhava, ignores an enormous amount of evidence from the sastras, from sadhus, and from Srila Prabhupada's own lips.

I find citing Gour-Govinda Maharaja as an authority interesting from at least a couple of angles. One is that the GBC complained bitterly about him for years until his tirobhava. Another is that his assertion that Srila Prabhupada is in gopi-bhava is given by a certain group of Gaudiya Vaishnavas, who then say that means we must hear from their guru, because no one else knows these things. (If necessary, I'll use names. Just ask.)

Those who have read it closely and have expressed appreciation for the conclusions I draw from the available external evidence include several members of this conference, some of whom had previously expressed deep reservations about the essay, and quite a few of ISKCON's leading sannyasis. Sivarama Swami's comments are public, having been published as a podcast for anyone to hear. Others who have expressed their appreciation include Hridayananda Maharaja, Jayadvaita Maharaja (who, although known for his outspoken nature is also known for his caution), Ganapati Swami, Sacinandnda Swami, B. V. Madhava Maharaja, and others. I don't have permission to share their comments here, but I think it's fair to mention their names.

As I point out in the essay and have conceded here several times, a number of problems attends discussion of such topics. However, it is apparent to me that Srila Prabhupada has left a trail of clues that leads not to a gingerbread house but to a lake of nectar. If drinking from such a lake is not to someone's taste, what can I do. But, in the spirit of churning discussion of certain aspects of Srila Prabhupada's character, I have taken the chance of sharing this with others.

I still doubt that he'll ever read it, though.

Swami - March 16, 2009 3:17 am

Just watched #8 (I think) of the new "Following Srila Prabhupada" videos. This one is footage of Prabhupada at the opening of Krsna Balaram mandir and GM tells his story of watching Prabhupada offer the first arati. Gurudas speaks at one point and he says how Prabhupada designed the stance that the Krsna-Balaram deities are standing in. I never knew this, but he says that previous to this, you could not get any murti of Krsna Balaram like this. He goes on to say that Prabhupada would joke with the devotees about the pose, asking "who is stronger - Krsna or Balaram?" The devotees would answer Balaram, and Prabhupad would laugh, telling them they were incorrect; Krsna is supporting Balaram.
Seems like an incredibly significant point if Prabhupad is portraying his vision of how the cowherd brothers are to be viewed - and then he has deities made in that image!

There is another explanation where Prabhupad says that Gaura-Nitai are Krsna and Balaram and that if the devotees ever have problems, they should approach either deities for help.

Yamuna tells a deep story of Prabhupada's feelings for the tamala tree in the courtyard and you get the sense that Prabhupada lives there, worships that dust in Raman-reti and is very familiar with the whole place. It is amazing. You really get the sense from this event that Prabhupada was meant to be there, establish that temple in his neighborhood, expand the prominence of that area of vraja, the glory of sakhya rasa and his homey-ness there really comes across. Plenty of gems to be mined from this footage and from devotees accounts.

Highly recommended viewing. If you don't have one GM, we will send it to you.

I would love to see it, but yes, of course Prabhupada chose their pose. It is based on the early painting of Krsna Balarama that appeared on one of the volumes of the Krsna Book. This painting was a combined effort of Jadurani, Murlidhara and Bardharaja under Prabhupada's direction. Later Murlidhara did another one based on the original.

Nitaisundara Das - March 16, 2009 3:18 am

Highly recommended viewing. If you don't have one GM, we will send it to you.

Dont have. Please send. :Cow: (GM concurs)

Swami - March 16, 2009 3:26 am

One sannyasi Godbrother who can be a little cranky wrote a note this morning. He quoted an email he had just received that cited Gour-Govinda Maharaja as saying that Prabhupada is a gopi and complained that this is the problem with this topic: how do you prove who's right? My response:

Have you read my essay? Those who have read it closely know that there is no attempt to prove anyone right or wrong with regard to their understanding of Srila Prabhupada's inner life. I do address the fact that others see something else. I'm just compiling the external evidence available;;what it shows is not that Gour-Govinda Maharaja is wrong and I'm right, but that the argument that Prabhupada cannot be in anything other than gopi-bhava, and more specifically in manjari-bhava, ignores an enormous amount of evidence from the sastras, from sadhus, and from Srila Prabhupada's own lips.

I find citing Gour-Govinda Maharaja as an authority interesting from at least a couple of angles. One is that the GBC complained bitterly about him for years until his tirobhava. Another is that his assertion that Srila Prabhupada is in gopi-bhava is given by a certain group of Gaudiya Vaishnavas, who then say that means we must hear from their guru, because no one else knows these things. (If necessary, I'll use names. Just ask.)

Those who have read it closely and have expressed appreciation for the conclusions I draw from the available external evidence include several members of this conference, some of whom had previously expressed deep reservations about the essay, and quite a few of ISKCON's leading sannyasis. Sivarama Swami's comments are public, having been published as a podcast for anyone to hear. Others who have expressed their appreciation include Hridayananda Maharaja, Jayadvaita Maharaja (who, although known for his outspoken nature is also known for his caution), Ganapati Swami, Sacinandnda Swami, B. V. Madhava Maharaja, and others. I don't have permission to share their comments here, but I think it's fair to mention their names.

As I point out in the essay and have conceded here several times, a number of problems attends discussion of such topics. However, it is apparent to me that Srila Prabhupada has left a trail of clues that leads not to a gingerbread house but to a lake of nectar. If drinking from such a lake is not to someone's taste, what can I do. But, in the spirit of churning discussion of certain aspects of Srila Prabhupada's character, I have taken the chance of sharing this with others.

I still doubt that he'll ever read it, though.

Because another of Prabhupada's disciples says he is a gopi we are suddenly thrown into a state of confusion despite the evidence? Ah, but not jut any disciple, but the one whom they have immortalized following his departure (in stark contradiction to their opinion of him in his presence) for their own sectarian purposes, as you have pointed out.

Babhru Das - March 17, 2009 2:20 pm

Do we have anything from Dhanurdhara Maharaja yet?

Prema-bhakti - March 17, 2009 3:19 pm

Do we have anything from Dhanurdhara Maharaja yet?

Babhru, did you see Maharaja last week when he was in Alachua?

Babhru Das - March 17, 2009 3:25 pm

I didn't know he was here! :Silly: Did he stay with Mahatma and Jahnava?

Prema-bhakti - March 17, 2009 4:00 pm

I didn't know he was here! Did he stay with Mahatma and Jahnava?

Yes.

Babhru Das - March 17, 2009 4:24 pm

Dang! Jeez, they invited me over when Indradyumna Maharaja was here (and I couldn't even eat because I was having a "procedure'"the next day), but I missed the cut for this? Bummer.

Bijaya Kumara Das - March 17, 2009 5:02 pm

What could this "special camp" be?

would it not be the "tadiya vaisnava seva nistha"camp and starting it in America ?

Swami - March 17, 2009 11:23 pm

I corresponded with Satyaraja (Steven Rosen) prior to his reading the book and he was somewhat opposed to its obvious conclusion. However, he just called me after reading it and he endorsed the conclusion of the book and praised its composition. He suggested we print an edition with an appendix consisting of endorsements, one of which he would be happy to write.

Braja-sundari Dasi - March 17, 2009 11:50 pm

I corresponded with Satyaraja (Steven Rosen) prior to his reading the book and he was somewhat opposed to its obvious conclusion. However, he just called me after reading it and he endorsed the conclusion of the book and praised its composition. He suggested we print an edition with an appendix consisting of endorsements, one of which he would be happy to write.

:Silly: His opinion is influential in Iskcon I think. It`s wonderful to see how more and more devotees appreciate the book.

Babhru Das - March 18, 2009 12:39 am

I got a nice Facebook note from Satyaraj yesterday. (I only got on Facebook because he suggested it, and I'm not sure I like it.) He seemed quite happy with the booklet, but wasn't ready to be quoted yet. Otherwise, I would have posted some of his remarks. I'm glad he called.

He's influential, I think, in some ISKCON circles. Plenty of people have objected to his giving so much space to non-Hare Krishna folks in his Yoga of Kirtan. But I think most devotees respect him as a serious sadhaka and writer.

I'm going to ask my BBT person what it would cost to use the pics we have if we printed. It would probably be a hefty amount, since we have about three dozen images.

Prema-bhakti - March 18, 2009 1:20 am

I corresponded with Satyaraja (Steven Rosen) prior to his reading the book and he was somewhat opposed to its obvious conclusion. However, he just called me after reading it and he endorsed the conclusion of the book and praised its composition. He suggested we print an edition with an appendix consisting of endorsements, one of which he would be happy to write.

Jaya!! :Silly:

Swami - March 18, 2009 2:57 pm

This from Jadurani:

I WAS NOT IMPRESSED WITH THIS WEBSITE OR THE BOOK BY BABRU PRABHU. HE IS USING SO MUCH THE WORDS OF NEOPHYTE CONDITIONED SOULS AS SO-CALLED EVIDENCE (INCLUDING ME, WHO DOESN'T EVEN HAVE THAT MISCONCEPTION ANY MORE), AND I FELT THERE WAS A MISUNDERSTANDING OF THE WORDS OF THE PURE DEVOTEES (LIKE SRILA SRIDHARA MAHARAJA).

AS FAR AS I (AND THOUSANDS OF OTHERS) AM CONCERNED, SRILA NARAYANA MAHARAJA IS ON THE SAME LEVEL OF REALIZATION AS PRABHUPADA. HE IS IN THE KUNJA WITH HIM, DOING NIKUNJA SEVA WITH HIM FOR SRI SRI RADHA AND KRSNA. HE SEES PRABHUPADA AS A MANJARI WITH HIS OWN EYES.

I FOLLOW SRILA NARAYANA MAHARAJA'S BOOK "GAURAVANI PRACARINE". I FOLLOW THE EVIDENCE IN THIS BOOK REGARDING PRABHUPADA'S IDENTITY.

AS A DISCIPLE OF PRABHUPADA, I REMEMBER HIM SAYING THAT HE IS RUPANUGA.

Note that the "evidence" in "Gauravani Pracarine" is not evidence at all and it has been dealt with in the "Objections" chapter of "O My friend!"

Gaura-Vijaya Das - March 18, 2009 3:42 pm

This from Jadurani:

I WAS NOT IMPRESSED WITH THIS WEBSITE OR THE BOOK BY BABRU PRABHU. HE IS USING SO MUCH THE WORDS OF NEOPHYTE CONDITIONED SOULS AS SO-CALLED EVIDENCE (INCLUDING ME, WHO DOESN'T EVEN HAVE THAT MISCONCEPTION ANY MORE), AND I FELT THERE WAS A MISUNDERSTANDING OF THE WORDS OF THE PURE DEVOTEES (LIKE SRILA SRIDHARA MAHARAJA).

AS FAR AS I (AND THOUSANDS OF OTHERS) AM CONCERNED, SRILA NARAYANA MAHARAJA IS ON THE SAME LEVEL OF REALIZATION AS PRABHUPADA. HE IS IN THE KUNJA WITH HIM, DOING NIKUNJA SEVA WITH HIM FOR SRI SRI RADHA AND KRSNA. HE SEES PRABHUPADA AS A MANJARI WITH HIS OWN EYES.

I FOLLOW SRILA NARAYANA MAHARAJA'S BOOK "GAURAVANI PRACARINE". I FOLLOW THE EVIDENCE IN THIS BOOK REGARDING PRABHUPADA'S IDENTITY.

AS A DISCIPLE OF PRABHUPADA, I REMEMBER HIM SAYING THAT HE IS RUPANUGA.

Note that the "evidence" in "Gauravani Pracarine" is not evidence at all and it has been dealt with in the "Objections" chapter of "O My friend!"

"Neophyte conditioned soul": she is really difficult for me to understand . But then prabhupada loved her too much so it leaves me with no room to comment.

Prema-bhakti - March 18, 2009 4:02 pm

"Neophyte conditioned soul": she is really difficult for me to understand . But then prabhupada loved her too much so it leaves me with no room to comment.

This reply is classic Jadurani.

I think there are a lot of things we can say even though Prabhupada loved his disciples. Some are very obvious rebuttals. But do we really want to say them and more importantly is it really worth the time.

Swami - March 18, 2009 5:12 pm

"Neophyte conditioned soul": she is really difficult for me to understand . But then prabhupada loved her too much so it leaves me with no room to comment.

I think she is referring to the early devotees cited in the book. However, for the most part such "realizations" are minimal and found in a few Vyasa-puja offering cited, etc. On the other hand there are a number of early devotees represented in the book that claim no personal realization at all but simply relate what Prabhupada said to them and did, such as printing a poem about himself being in sakhya rasa in his BTG and telling some devotees "I am a cowherd boy." Again, these are not realizations of neophyte devotees, but numerous personal accounts that corroborate one another, at least one of which (the poem being printed) is verifiable. Such personal accounts cannot be dismissed merely because they come from young devotees.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - March 18, 2009 5:20 pm

I think she is referring to the early devotees cited in the book. However, for the most part such "realizations" are minimal and found in a few Vyasa-puja offering cited, etc. On the other hand there are a number of early devotees represented in the book that claim no personal realization at all but simply relate what Prabhupada said to them and did, such as printing a poem about himself being in sakhya rasa in his BTG and telling some devotees "I am a cowherd boy." Again, these are not realizations of neophyte devotees, but numerous personal accounts that corroborate one another, at least one of which (the poem being printed) is verifiable. Such personal accounts cannot be dismissed merely because they come from young devotees.

She included herself in those neophyte devotees. And now she got to know the truth because NM actually serves radharani alongside SP and NM sees SP all the time. There is no room to dispute her claim because everything rests on the indisputable and unquestionable authority of NM.

Babhru Das - March 18, 2009 5:50 pm

The case is not those "realizations" of "neophyte conditioned souls," but on the fact that they're supported by Srila Prabhupada's own utterances. Some readers may question, for example, the story that Govinda dasi relates. But the story is not isolated, and, over the 40 years I've known her, that story has never changed. The case rests not on any one piece of evidence, but on the body of evidence. And a couple of devotees have found the strongest evidence to be those things Srila Prabhupada said himself.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - March 18, 2009 5:53 pm

The case is not those "realizations" of "neophyte conditioned souls," but on the fact that they're supported by Srila Prabhupada's own utterances. Some readers may question, for example, the story that Govinda dasi relates. But the story is not isolated, and, over the 40 years I've known her, that story has never changed. The case rests not on any one piece of evidence, but on the body of evidence. And a couple of devotees have found the strongest evidence to be those things Srila Prabhupada said himself.

I perfectly understand you Babhru. But Jadurani tried to make you feel that if you challenge her conclusion, you are challenging NM ,and NM, according to her, is personally able to see SP as a manjari and serving alongside him.

Swami - March 18, 2009 6:07 pm

I perfectly understand you Babhru. But Jadurani tried to make you feel that if you challenge her conclusion, you are challenging NM ,and NM, according to her, is personally able to see SP as a manjari and serving alongside him.

Pujyapda Sridhara Maharaja is at the gate of that kunja. How did Narayaan Maharaj get past him without SSM noticing?

Gaura-Vijaya Das - March 18, 2009 6:13 pm

Pujyapda Sridhara Maharaja is at the gate of that kunja. How did Narayaan Maharaj get past him without SSM noticing?

Yes that is true and she puts a weak argument that SSM has been quoted out of context. And she will need to glorify NM at the expense of even Puri Maharaja who has acknowledged SP's sakhya rasa.

That is why it is bewildering to me that how the sadhana of some devotees is so nice consistently for 35 years and they are fanatic.

Why does she need to write everything in capital? Just showing her brute power.

Rathi Krishna Dasa - March 18, 2009 6:20 pm

Took offense to her use of all caps more than anything. :Silly:

Babhru Das - March 18, 2009 7:39 pm

I perfectly understand you Babhru. But Jadurani tried to make you feel that if you challenge her conclusion, you are challenging NM ,and NM, according to her, is personally able to see SP as a manjari and serving alongside him.

I know what she means to do, and it doesn't worry me. The last time we had this encounter, she ended up leaving an apology on my answering machine that was two messages long.

Babhru Das - March 18, 2009 7:41 pm

Took offense to her use of all caps more than anything.

I think her intention was to distinguish her replies from Swami's remarks by using all caps. But my response when I saw it was something like, "I'll respond by SHOUTING OVER EVERYTHING YOU SAY." (Picture Stephen Colbert, fingers stuffed in his ears and ululating at the top of his lungs while he sings, "I can't hear you!")

Citta Hari Dasa - March 18, 2009 9:20 pm

A rather fanatical rant, in my opinion. She didn't even address the evidence, but instead chose to dismiss it out of hand by playing the "conditioned souls" card. Sorry but she'll have to do better than that.

Narayana Maharaja is certainly entitled to his opinion, but it's just hearsay--as much or more so than the stories about SP by his disciples, since it can't be corroborated by anyone but him. Why anyone would take that over direct statements by SP himself I cannot imagine. I also wonder what his explanation of Prabhupada's statements would be--something like "Swami Maharaja was very tricky, and said those things to mislead the impure minded so that they would not offend madhurya rasa." If so then that's pretty weak.

Babhru Das - March 18, 2009 10:20 pm

Narayana Maharaja is certainly entitled to his opinion,

Yes, he is, particularly if he expresses it as such. There's no need to prove an opnion. But if you state it as fact . . .

I also wonder what his explanation of Prabhupada's statements would be--something like "Swami Maharaja was very tricky, and said those things to mislead the impure minded so that they would not offend madhurya rasa." If so then that's pretty weak.

Yep--heard that one already, and not from him.

Bijaya Kumara Das - March 19, 2009 5:24 pm

I corresponded with Satyaraja (Steven Rosen) prior to his reading the book and he was somewhat opposed to its obvious conclusion. However, he just called me after reading it and he endorsed the conclusion of the book and praised its composition. He suggested we print an edition with an appendix consisting of endorsements, one of which he would be happy to write.

excellant, Guru Maharaja what a conversion. Congradulations are in order here :blush: :Applause:

Bijaya Kumara Das - March 19, 2009 5:28 pm

This from Jadurani:

I WAS NOT IMPRESSED WITH THIS WEBSITE OR THE BOOK BY BABRU PRABHU. HE IS USING SO MUCH THE WORDS OF NEOPHYTE CONDITIONED SOULS AS SO-CALLED EVIDENCE (INCLUDING ME, WHO DOESN'T EVEN HAVE THAT MISCONCEPTION ANY MORE), AND I FELT THERE WAS A MISUNDERSTANDING OF THE WORDS OF THE PURE DEVOTEES (LIKE SRILA SRIDHARA MAHARAJA).

AS FAR AS I (AND THOUSANDS OF OTHERS) AM CONCERNED, SRILA NARAYANA MAHARAJA IS ON THE SAME LEVEL OF REALIZATION AS PRABHUPADA. HE IS IN THE KUNJA WITH HIM, DOING NIKUNJA SEVA WITH HIM FOR SRI SRI RADHA AND KRSNA. HE SEES PRABHUPADA AS A MANJARI WITH HIS OWN EYES.

I FOLLOW SRILA NARAYANA MAHARAJA'S BOOK "GAURAVANI PRACARINE". I FOLLOW THE EVIDENCE IN THIS BOOK REGARDING PRABHUPADA'S IDENTITY.

AS A DISCIPLE OF PRABHUPADA, I REMEMBER HIM SAYING THAT HE IS RUPANUGA.

Note that the "evidence" in "Gauravani Pracarine" is not evidence at all and it has been dealt with in the "Objections" chapter of "O My friend!"

cant a cowherd boy have sentiments in rupanuga ? i would say that he can but he is still a cowherd boy. and if His Divine Grace A C Bhaktivedanta said it "i am a cowherd boy" and "I REMEMBER HIM SAYING THAT HE IS RUPANUGA" (Jadurani "") then both are true, but where is the evidence of rupanuga stated by him ?

Swami - March 19, 2009 6:05 pm

cant a cowherd boy have sentiments in rupanuga ? i would say that he can but he is still a cowherd boy.

Yes, this is explained in the book.

Babhru Das - March 19, 2009 6:12 pm

This was posted by Narasingha Maharaja today:

Dear Friends,

With the publication of "O My Friend" you have undoubtedly made a remarkable contribution to the thoughtful community of Vaishnavas. The revealing presentation of the inner life of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada that you have humbly placed before us deeply charms our heart.

Beyond any reasonable doubt the confirmation of Srila Prabhupada's affinity for sakhya-rasa in his own words and particularly the verification of such by the deep spiritual evaluation and realizations of Srila Sridhara Deva Goswami Maharaja simply dwarfs the speculative sentiments of those who are misguided by unqualified commentators.

"O My Friend" is indeed a jewel among contemporary Vaishnava literature. May the Supreme Lord bless you for your endeavors and may this publication shine light into the devotional lives of the faithful followers of Srila Prabhupada. Kalyanam astu, kalyanam astu.

Bijaya Kumara Das - March 20, 2009 11:51 pm

This was posted by Narasingha Maharaja today:
Dear Friends,

With the publication of "O My Friend" you have undoubtedly made a remarkable contribution to the thoughtful community of Vaishnavas. The revealing presentation of the inner life of Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada that you have humbly placed before us deeply charms our heart.

Beyond any reasonable doubt the confirmation of Srila Prabhupada's affinity for sakhya-rasa in his own words and particularly the verification of such by the deep spiritual evaluation and realizations of Srila Sridhara Deva Goswami Maharaja simply dwarfs the speculative sentiments of those who are misguided by unqualified commentators.

"O My Friend" is indeed a jewel among contemporary Vaishnava literature. May the Supreme Lord bless you for your endeavors and may this publication shine light into the devotional lives of the faithful followers of Srila Prabhupada. Kalyanam astu, kalyanam astu.

great stuff

keep the nectar flowing

Babhru Das - March 23, 2009 3:34 pm

This is posted on Sitapati's blog. Sitapati is a very active preacher in the Southern Hemisphere, (mostly Oz and NZ, but also in South America) and a disciple of ISKCON's Devamrita Swami.

From Nitai:I have been trying to find devotees' comments on the recent book published online, "O My Friend", by Babhru Dasa and Tripurari Swami. not many devotees seem to have said anything about this yet but it is huge statement I think. It is all about Srila Prabhupada's svarupa, saying that he clearly showed himself to be a sakha. I have seen you quote Tripurari Maharaja before and I like your blog so I thought I might ask if you would write what you think of this booklet? The website for the book is http://www.cowdust.us

My reply:

The booklet that you mention is by Babhru das, and has a forward by Swami BV Tripurari Swami. Babhru does quote Swami Tripurari throughout and his influence is evident in it.

The booklet is very nicely laid out. I heard about it before and had looked at it cursorily, but hadn't read it through. After receiving your email I read it through in order to say something about it with an informed opinion.

I'm familiar with the arguments presented in this booklet, and have considered them in the past (which is why I had only glanced at it before you wrote me). From a rational point of view it makes sense. I have no qualification to comment on Srila Prabhupada's svarupa, but if I were to say something about the opinion that it is in sakhya-rasa, I'd say that it's entirely possible. Whether or not it is actually the fact can only really be known by "going there".

For myself, I am a long way from bhava. I have full faith that Krishna within my heart and externally will make all arrangements for me, as He has done up to this point, so I am not worried about anything.

Over the past year I've found myself more and more giving up the idea of becoming something, or striving to be something, and becoming more comfortable with the ideal of simply "being myself". That's the meaning of self-realization. Who you are is revealed from within. You don't have to worry about becoming something, or reaching for some higher rasa or state of spiritual being. It's just about being yourself, and it starts and ends with service to the Supreme Lord.

What calls our progress in self realization is watering the root of our spiritual practice.

I hope something of this is of some value to you.

in service,

Sita-pati das

Nitaisundara Das - March 23, 2009 3:43 pm

I wonder who that Nitai is.... :Cow: :Peace:

Nitaisundara Das - March 23, 2009 4:59 pm

With a little detective work I have found that Sita-pati was subscribed to Audarya Audio for some time. I had wondered where he was getting so much from Guru Maharaja when I saw him quote him in the past. That would also explain why Guru Maharaja's phrases seem to be common usage for him in the letter: "stop trying become something/go somwhere" and "calls our progress".

Audarya-lila Dasa - March 23, 2009 5:03 pm

I don't think anyone should be surprised by Jadurani's response. She uses this type of argument all the time - Srila Naryana Maharaja is on the same level as Srila Prabhupada and is a realized soul. What he says is absolute truth because he is actually there - the obvious implication being that any other opinion is speculative and to be readily dismissed since it arises from the mental plane and not from the spiritual plane.

Now the obvious issue that any thinking person would have with this line of argument is that it is totally subjective and there is absolutely no way to verify the claims. It is all based on subjective faith.

The book presents historical facts and that is something that Jadurani cannot deal with using her sentimental approach, especially since the facts presented in the book go against what her guide is saying. The other thing that Jadurani does not take up at all in her response is her own misconception that Rupanuga exclusively means manjari seva. This is dealt with in the book very nicely. The whole line of argument from her in the past has been: We are Rupanugas, Srila Rupa Goswami is Rupa Manjari and therefore we must also be manjaris if we are really followers. Also, something to the affect that 'all our Gurus are in srngara rasa and therefore Srila Prabhupada must be as well.'

Only time will tell if a more nuanced and mature presentation/refutation can be mounted.....

Babhru Das - March 23, 2009 5:28 pm

With a little detective work I have found that Sita-pati was subscribed to Audarya Audio for some time. I had wondered where he was getting so much from Guru Maharaja when I saw him quote him in the past. That would also explain why Guru Maharaja's phrases seem to be common usage for him in the letter: "stop trying become something/go somwhere" and "calls our progress".

Yes, I found "calls our progress" particularly striking, especially in a post such as this one.

Babhru Das - March 23, 2009 5:31 pm

I would also be interested some day to hear Mahanidhi Swami's response. He is really into manjari seva. In one of his "Art of Chanting" talks, he mentions that even at the end of his days, Srila Prabhupada kept translating and preaching, rather than immerse himself in his manjari svarupa. On the other hand, I've heard that he readily acknowledges our friend Madhava Maharaja's interest in sakhya rati as genuine and profound.

Nitaisundara Das - March 23, 2009 5:37 pm

I would also be interested some day to hear Mahanidhi Swami's response. He is really into manjari seva. In one of his "Art of Chanting" talks, he mentions that even at the end of his days, Srila Prabhupada kept translating and preaching, rather than immerse himself in his manjari svarupa. On the other hand, I've heard that he readily acknowledges our friend Madhava Maharaja's interest in sakhya rati as genuine and profound.

does he have a website? I know a certain Nitai who might like to request hs response.

Babhru Das - March 23, 2009 5:59 pm

Not as far as I can tell.

Swami - March 24, 2009 3:25 pm

Agindeva has found two tapes of Prabhupada doing kirtana. On one in the middle of Bhaja hure mana he starts singing "Baladeva Baladeva." On the other he sings golokera prema dhana hari nama sankirtana and then "Baladevera prema dhana hari nama sankirtana."

Baladeva of course is the leader of sakhya rasa.

Citta Hari Dasa - March 24, 2009 4:03 pm

Agindeva has found two tapes of Prabhupada doing kirtana. On one in the middle of Bhaja hure mana he starts singing "Baladeva Baladeva." On the other he sings golokera prema dhana hari nama sankirtana and then "Baladevera prema dhana hari nama sankirtana."

Baladeva of course is the leader of sakhya rasa.

Oh, this is good stuff! The evidence just keeps on mounting. . . :Yawn:

Babhru Das - March 24, 2009 4:08 pm

And we need those clips!

Nitaisundara Das - March 25, 2009 4:33 am

This discussion has slowly continued on Sivarama Swami's website, he posted a short piece about to which GM encouraged me to reply. It seems he has somewhat waivered in his support. This is the most recent post, followed by my reply which is still awaiting approval:

This instruction found in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya by Srila Prabhupada is very useful.

TLC CH. 17

Quote:

“There is a specific difference between the pure devotee and the confidential devotee. Different potencies of the Lord are engaged in serving the Supreme Lord in different transcendental relationships. They are situated in conjugal love, in parental affection, in friendship and in servitude. By impartially judging, one can find that the internal potencies of the Supreme Lord who are engaged in conjugal love with the Lord are the best of all devotees. Thus both internal devotees and confidential devotees are attracted by the conjugal love of the Supreme Absolute Truth. These are the most confidential devotees of Lord Caitanya. Other pure devotees, who are more or less attached to Śrī Nityānanda Prabhu and Advaita Prabhu, are attracted by other transcendental relationships, such as parental affection, friendship and servitorship. When such devotees are attached to the activities of Lord Caitanya, they at once become confidential devotees in conjugal love with the Supreme Lord,.”

Considering that Srila Prabhupada was well attached to the activities of Lord Caitanya and not isolated to an attachment to Lord Nityananda or Advaita Acarya, it is safe to assume that he is of the madhurya-rasa group.

5. Nitaisundara | March 25th, 2009 at 5:33 am

Your comment is awaiting moderation.

I find this quote to not be very strong evidence. Srila Prabhupada’s wording is a little hard to follow. For example, in the sentence that you made bold, one would assume that “such devotees” is referring to the devotees in the previous sentence. But that is not the case because that sentence is obviously pointing out everything but the rasa of conjugal love. So “such devotees” seems like it must refer to the “inner” devotees or “pure devotees” that are both mentioned earlier.

The argument that because Srila Prabhupada was “well attached to the activities of Lord Caitanya” and therefore he must be in madhurya rasa is not so strong. Would that mean that bhaktas with Vatsalya-prema or sakhya prema are not attached to the activities of Lord Caitanya? Vrindavan das Thakur wrote Caitanya Bhagavat but he is situated in Sakhya rasa.

Babhru Prabhu’s booklet has more direct quotes from Srila Prabhupada that I find more convincing. Have you read it? Either way it is great nectar. I think that Srila Prabhupada’s wording here is easy to use in the way you have, but clearly it is not that for someone to be attached to Mahaprabhu’s activities they must be in manjari-rasa. Mahaprabhu can give everything, as can Srila Prabhupada!

Jaya Prabhupada!

Babhru Das - March 25, 2009 8:21 am

I think Sivarama Maharaja's response to your first comment indicates some caution more than wavering in support. It appears his posting the quotation that opens that thread was to acknowledge that argument. The TLC quotation is interesting and may complicate the discussion, but we need to consider it in the complete context in which we find it, and under the influence of guru, sadhu, and sastra. Does the person who posted it think that it suggests that we may change our svarupa, shift our stayi-bhava? If so, then how is it stayi? I think it would also be well to examine the corresponding chapter in Cc to see how we may understand that statement in TLC. I'll probably do so later today, after I have attended to my japa and puja-seva.

Madan Gopal Das - March 25, 2009 12:21 pm

Gentlemen, I humbly suggest (and am very open to being ignored) that you don't go head to head with that person who is quoting TLC and who I get the impression may be feeding S.S. some seeds of doubt. I smell a Sonic Yogi. After all, what is KB das short for??? Ksamabuddhi! Those quotes are the same that he brought up in the Audarya Fellowship thread and he will just keep going if you fight it. And as we saw there, yes, he does believe that we can change the stayi-bhava. :Yawn:

As for S.S.'s being cautious more than wavering, I think he is beyond wavering!:

I myself have not made such a reconciliation and so I have not formulated my own opinion of the evidence of Prabhupada’s svarupa.

That sounds like a completely different person than a couple weeks ago when he was defending the conclusion of the book with the books' arguments!

Gandiva Dasi - March 25, 2009 12:49 pm

Forgive my ignorance but, regarding one's Stayi-bhava changing,I read the endnotes but still don't really understand the reference to BRS about being 'downgraded' in one's rasa due to offenses?, if that is possible would an 'upgrade' be ,inconceivable, due to Lord Chaitanya'a unlimited mercy??

Although I know the concepts of upgrade and downgrade don't really apply, This isn't my position but I was just wondering?

Gaura-Vijaya Das - March 25, 2009 2:24 pm

Gentlemen, I humbly suggest (and am very open to being ignored) that you don't go head to head with that person who is quoting TLC and who I get the impression may be feeding S.S. some seeds of doubt. I smell a Sonic Yogi. After all, what is KB das short for??? Ksamabuddhi! Those quotes are the same that he brought up in the Audarya Fellowship thread and he will just keep going if you fight it. And as we saw there, yes, he does believe that we can change the stayi-bhava.

As for S.S.'s being cautious more than wavering, I think he is beyond wavering!:That sounds like a completely different person than a couple weeks ago when he was defending the conclusion of the book with the books' arguments!

In the first instance the support of SS was unexpected and surprising. HE has a siksha guru book written to compensate for the fact that he went to NM and show his loyalty towards SP. Obviously as soon as people see the lack of "loyalty", he has to overexpress(I don't think that it is a word but you get me) his loyalty.

Swami - March 25, 2009 2:40 pm

Forgive my ignorance but, regarding one's Stayi-bhava changing,I read the endnotes but still don't really understand the reference to BRS about being 'downgraded' in one's rasa due to offenses?, if that is possible would an 'upgrade' be ,inconceivable, due to Lord Chaitanya'a unlimited mercy??

Although I know the concepts of upgrade and downgrade don't really apply, This isn't my position but I was just wondering?

The quote is about one's bhava being downgraded, not rasa. Sthayi-bhava means rasa, for once it is realized the other attendant bhavas come to mix with it resulting in rasa. And rasa means prema, not bhava. So it is one thing to have developed an affinity for a particular bhava and to be cultivating that bhava within bhava bhakti and another thing to have perfected that cultivation and realized one's sthayi-bhava altogether (svarupa siddhi). The verse refers to the former so there is no changing of realized sthayi-bhava involved. But I also admit that the verse itself and commentary is difficult to fathom. I have always taken it as a warning against Vaisnava aparadha more than anything else.

Madan Gopal Das - March 25, 2009 2:57 pm

Forgive my ignorance but, regarding one's Stayi-bhava changing,I read the endnotes but still don't really understand the reference to BRS about being 'downgraded' in one's rasa due to offenses?, if that is possible would an 'upgrade' be ,inconceivable, due to Lord Chaitanya'a unlimited mercy??

Although I know the concepts of upgrade and downgrade don't really apply, This isn't my position but I was just wondering?

This is a really good question and deserves some elaboration.

Here are a few verses from BRS and specifically the one cited for this argument:

Translation: By the great mercy of a dear devotee of the Lord,
the semblance of bhāva suddenly becomes real bhāva. By offending

that devotee, even the best bhāvābhāsa gradually wanes

just as the full moon in the sky gradually wanes.

Translation: Moreover, it should be stated:

By an offense against the dearest devotee of the Lord, even real

bhāva will be destroyed, if the offense is grave. If the offense is

medium, the bhāva will turn to bhāvābhāsa. If the offense is

slight, the bhāva will become an inferior type.

Jīva Gosvāmī’s Commentary

By two types of grave offenses—offense to the dearest devotee, or

to Kṛṣṇa Himself (kṛṣṇa-pṛeṣṭha aparādhataḥ)—even real bhāva is

destroyed. By medium offense, bhāva becomes bhāvābhāsa. By

slight offense, the bhāva degrades in category. Becoming an inferior

type means that there will be degradation in term of the five

rasas and the eight stages from mahā-bhāva to rati. Thus,

change in bhāva will take place according to the seriousness of

the offense.

Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura’s Commentary

Bhāva will be destroyed by aparādha to the dearest devotees of

Kṛṣṇa. An example is Dvivida the monkey, a follower of Rāma. By

aparādha to Lakṣmaṇa, his bhāva disappeared. By medium

aparādha, bhāva becomes bhāvābhāsa. If the aparādha is slight,

the bhāva changes type. Madhura-rati becomes dāsya-rati. Dāsyarati

becomes śānta-rati.

So, that is very interesting, especially VCT's comments about the type of rati changing and "degrading" down the scale. Interesting because of that scaling of rasa. One guess I could make about this is that out of his own bhava, VCT is warning against offense so that you don't slide down or your bhava does not become "inferior". I'm not very satisfied with the suggestion I'm making, but it is just an idea. Another idea is that when VCT talks about degrading rati, he doesn't mess with the top three, madhurya, vatsalya and sakhya. He says that madhurya goes all the way down to dasya, which I think could be argued as "less intense" and more of a general serving mood, without the specificity of the three above it. Am I making sense? He doesn't suggest that one "full" rasa like madhurya degrades to another "full" rasa like vatsalya...

Babhru addresses this "downgrading" idea very briefly in his book, but it is very sensible and therefore doesn't require much input. Some people suggest Akincana KDB is one such case and he was downgraded to sakhya because of the "offense" of not preaching per BSST's order. But because AKDB never exhibited madhurya sentiment, it cannot be said that he previously held a "higher" sentiment and henceforth manifested the "lower" position. Makes sense right?

So, as for upgrading - as stated in the first verse, the mercy of the great devotee has the ability to upgrade bhava from bhavabhasa - turn it into REAL bhava, make it purer, upgrade it in quality, etc. Not that the type of rati changes. Stayi means steady, or fixed. One's attraction can become more intense, but not different.

Babhru Das - March 25, 2009 3:07 pm

For now, anyway, I'm willing to give Sivarama Maharaja the benefit of any doubt there may be about the nature of his remarks. He stood by his response to the book's thrust when challenged by an old friend, and in public. It looks to me as though he presented the first remark in that thread out of fairness (Here's what some folks who don't buy into this book are saying), and his response to Nitai's first post is really pretty soft.

As for KB's remark, I prefer not to engage him to the extent that it's possible because he's so damned flakey, and I'd rather avoid feeding his ego. He's like those right-wing talk-radio screamers, such as Limbaugh and Hannity, whose raison d'etre seems to be to garner any kind of attention they can. Nevertheless, the quotation he posted seems provocative enough that it might be well to see some discussion of it here. I have to make some time to read that section of TLC so I have the quotation in context, and to read the corresponding section of Cc. If Rupa and Jiva make room for some degradation of bhava due to offense, we may find some need to address the assertion that Mahaprabhu can upgrade everyone to madhura-rati.

Madan Gopal Das - March 25, 2009 3:13 pm

Also it is interesting that Jiva Goswami does not get as specific in suggesting actual downgrading in the 5 rasas like VCT does.

Becoming an inferior type means that there will be degradation in term of the five rasas and the eight stages from mahā-bhāva to rati.

It seems like he leaves room to suggest that it could be either degradation of intensity, or degradation of the rasa. Here is an interesting footnote on his comments that seems to suggest JG is leaning more towards degradation of intensity.

Sādhya-rūpa or hārda-rūpa-bhakti has five types: bhāva, prema, praṇaya,
sneha and rāga. In Ujjvala-nīla-maṇi three more types are mentioned: māna,

anurāga and mahā-bhāva. Thus, there are eight types of sādhya-bhakti. This is

explained in Jīva Gosvāmī’s commentary on BRS 1.2.1. However, since the topic

is bhāva-bhakti, the lowest of the eight types, that bhāva could simply decrease

in intensity. Furthermore, those at the level of bhāva still have impurities, and

could make mistakes because of anarthas, whereas those at the level of prema

are pure and could never commit real offense.

Babhru Das - March 25, 2009 3:16 pm

I have to say that I just don't see anything in that chapter that addresses an "upgrade" of bhava in terms of that "scale." At the end of the chapter, Rupa describes bhava as unstable in nature, but that's because of the constant movement of sancari and vyabhicari bhavas. And that's an ornament.

Madan Gopal Das - March 25, 2009 3:27 pm

Another idea is that when VCT talks about degrading rati, he doesn't mess with the top three, madhurya, vatsalya and sakhya. He says that madhurya goes all the way down to dasya

He doesn't suggest that one "full" rasa like madhurya degrades to another "full" rasa like vatsalya...

In contemplating this, I'm starting to like this idea more and more. Though it hangs on VCT's specific words and not general idea, there isn't any counter-argument about "degrading rasa" between the "top three" that is specific at all right?

Sorry to use so many "quotes", but it just seems so strange to me to talk about lower and higher, good and bad, degrading and upgrading when talking about the love life of a sadhaka!

Babhru Das - March 25, 2009 3:39 pm

I agree that this is an interesting and noteworthy point. He does not say that madhurya degrades to vatsalya, or even to sakhya. And I find myself wondering whether the degradation is permanent or temporary.

And with regard to Akincana Krishna das babaji, I don't know of any of those who freely concede his affinity for sakhya rati ever expressed a whiff of a sense that it was a problem. They seem to celebrate it, to delight in it, as he did in everything.

Prahlad Das - March 25, 2009 4:13 pm

This discussion has slowly continued on Sivarama Swami's website, he posted a short piece about to which GM encouraged me to reply. It seems he has somewhat waivered in his support. This is the most recent post, followed by my reply which is still awaiting approval:
This instruction found in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya by Srila Prabhupada is very useful.

TLC CH. 17

Quote:

“There is a specific difference between the pure devotee and the confidential devotee. Different potencies of the Lord are engaged in serving the Supreme Lord in different transcendental relationships. They are situated in conjugal love, in parental affection, in friendship and in servitude. By impartially judging, one can find that the internal potencies of the Supreme Lord who are engaged in conjugal love with the Lord are the best of all devotees. Thus both internal devotees and confidential devotees are attracted by the conjugal love of the Supreme Absolute Truth. These are the most confidential devotees of Lord Caitanya. Other pure devotees, who are more or less attached to Śrī Nityānanda Prabhu and Advaita Prabhu, are attracted by other transcendental relationships, such as parental affection, friendship and servitorship. When such devotees are attached to the activities of Lord Caitanya, they at once become confidential devotees in conjugal love with the Supreme Lord,.”

Considering that Srila Prabhupada was well attached to the activities of Lord Caitanya and not isolated to an attachment to Lord Nityananda or Advaita Acarya, it is safe to assume that he is of the madhurya-rasa group.

The qualifier at the end of Sivarama Maharaja's quote is definitely subjective. It is weak to say the least. For example, Srila Prabhupada rarely installed a murti of Mahaprabhu, not accompanied by Nityananda Prabhu. I believe there are one or two exceptions. (One in Mayapur?) It should be clear that Prabhupada's feeling of Mahaprabhu's movement is through the lens of associating it with Nityananda Prabhu. His spiritual master, almost invariably, installed murtis of Mahaprabhu, Radha-Krsna. Bhaktivinod Thakur worshiped Gaura-Gadadhara. Thus it can be seen that although emphasis is given that Mahaprabhu is svayam-bhagavan, Prabhupada was actually giving more emphasis toward Nityananda Prabhu (Balarama), indicating his cherished pastimes.

It seems as though Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati recruited Srila Prabhupada for some specific purposes. Some "dirty work" being consigned to some veera bahadur, or some chivalrous brave one. (Props to Nitaisundara Prabhu, for allowing me to transcribe the Narasingha Caturdasi talk and thus hear about veera rasa )

Babhru Das - March 25, 2009 7:58 pm

Here's that section as it appears in Cc., Adi-lila 7.17:

The devotees headed by Gadadhara Pandita are to be considered incarnations of the internal potency of the Lord. They are confidential devotees engaged in the service of the Lord.

PURPORT

In connection with verses 16 and 17, Sri Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura explains in his Anubhasya: "There are specific symptoms by which the internal devotees and the unalloyed or pure devotees are to be known. All unalloyed devotees are sakti-tattvas, or potencies of the Lord. Some of them are situated in conjugal love and others in filial affection, fraternity and servitude. Certainly all of them are devotees, but by making a comparative study it is found that the devotees or potencies who are engaged in conjugal love are better situated than the others. Thus devotees who are in a relationship with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in conjugal love are considered to be the most confidential devotees of Lord Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Those who engage in the service of Lord Nityananda Prabhu and Lord Advaita Prabhu generally have relationships of parental love, fraternity, servitude and neutrality. When such devotees develop great attachment for Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, they too become situated within the intimate circle of devotees in conjugal love." This gradual development of devotional service is described by Sri Narottama dasa Thakura as follows:

gauranga balite habe pulaka sarira

hari hari balite nayane ba'be nira

ara kabe nitaicanda karuna karibe

samsara-vasana mora kabe tuccha habe

visaya chadiya kabe suddha habe mana

kabe hama heraba sri-vrndavana

rupa-raghunatha-pade ha-ibe akuti

kabe hama bujhaba sri-yugala-piriti

"When will there be eruptions on my body as soon as I chant the name of Lord Caitanya, and when will there be incessant torrents of tears as soon as I chant the holy names Hare Krsna? When will Lord Nityananda be merciful toward me and free me from all desires for material enjoyment? When will my mind be completely freed from all contamination of desires for material pleasure? Only at that time will it be possible for me to understand Vrndavana. Only if I become attached to the instructions given by the six Gosvamis, headed by Rupa Gosvami and Raghunatha dasa Gosvami, will it be possible for me to understand the conjugal love of Radha and Krsna." By attachment to the devotional service of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, one immediately comes to the ecstatic position. When he develops his love for Nityananda Prabhu he is freed from all attachment to the material world, and at that time he becomes eligible to understand the Lord's pastimes in Vrndavana. In that condition, when one develops his love for the six Gosvamis, he can understand the conjugal love between Radha and Krsna. These are the different stages of a pure devotee's promotion to conjugal love in the service of Radha and Krsna in an intimate relationship with Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

I guess I've read this many times, but it never struck me as it did KB.

Nitaisundara Das - March 25, 2009 9:12 pm

Its definitely Ksamabuddhi over there. Good call Madan. He came out with that same weak quote about Prabhupada's place of Bhajan being Rupa Goswami's samadhi. I don't think I will get into it unless GM would like me to. Hes just so darn wacky

Gandiva Dasi - March 26, 2009 1:27 pm

Thanks for all the explanations,I had to read through them all several times, yes Maharaj, I hadn't understood the distinction that it was bhava not prema. So there's no changing of one's realized sthayi bhava. I could understand if the 'degradation' was a temporary result, and/or affecting intensity rather than rasa category, (as Madan Gopala you said Jiva Goswami may be suggesting) because otherwise it still would in effect change one's rasa/sthayi bhava because that is inherent right? It doesn't seem conceivable with the magnanimity of bhakti that one's relationship with Krsna could eternally change with no chance of rectifying. It certainly is a strong warning against Vaisnava aparadha however you interpret it.

I found this about Dvivida's degradation "Dvivida Gorilla

Why did Dvivida gorilla behave so rudely in Krihna's pastimes ? The same > Dvivida assisted Sri Ramachandra in defeating Ravana along with Nala, > Nila, Sugriva, Mainda, Jambavan, Angada and Hanuman.

In our SB 10.67.3 it says:

>Sri -suka uväca narakasya sakhä kascid dvivido näma vänarah sugriva-sacivah so ’tha bhrätä maindasya viryavän

TRANSLATION

Sri Sukadeva Goswämi said: There was an ape named Dvivida who was a friend of Narakäsura’s. This powerful Dvivida, the brother of Mainda, had been instructed by King Sugriva.

PURPORT

Srila Jiva Goswämi points out some interesting facts about the ape Dvivida. Although Dvivida was an associate of Lord Rämacandra’s, he later became corrupted by bad association with the demon Naraka, as stated here: narakasya sakhä. This bad association was the reaction for an offense Dvivida had committed when, being proud of his strength, he disrespected Lord Rämacandra’s brother Laksmana and others. Those who worship Lord Rämacandra sometimes chant hymns addressed to Mainda and Dvivida, who are attendant deities of the Lord. According to Srila Jiva Goswämi, the Mainda and Dvivida mentioned in this verse are empowered expansions of these deities, who are residents of Lord Rämacandra’s Vaikuntha domain.

Sria Visvanätha Cakravarti Thäkura concurs with Srila Jiva Goswämi’s view that Dvivida was ruined by bad association, which was a punishment for his having disrespected Sriman Laksmana. Srila Visvanätha Cakravarti states, however, that the Mainda and Dvivida mentioned here are actually the eternally liberated devotees addressed as attendant deities during the worship of Lord Rämacandra. The Lord arranged their degradation, he says, to show the evil of the bad association that results from offending great personalities. Thus Srila Visvanätha Cakravarti compares the fall of Dvivida and Mainda to that of Jaya and Vijaya.<<

Babhru Das - March 27, 2009 2:25 pm

It appears that VINA has chosen not to post our announcement. I would guess that they feel it may generate controversy among missions. Ah, well.

Babhru Das - March 30, 2009 12:32 am

I found this from Urmila on my Facebook wall this evening. Although it's not directly related to Srila Prabhupada's svarupa, I find it an inspiring quotation:

We are not poets. We are not logicians. We are not philosophers who have crossed to the farthest shore of Vedanta. We are not eloquent debaters. We are the servants of a rascal cowherd boy. (Sri Sarvabhauma Bhattacharya)

Babhru Das - March 30, 2009 11:11 am

I received this note from my dear Godbrother Turiya das this morning. Turiya das was among the first devotees I encountered at a Jimi Hendrix concert in Honolulu in May of 1969, and it was he who introduced me to Bhagavad-Gita As It Is and invited me to visit the temple.

Dear Babhru Prabhu,

Dandavats. I have just completed reading your book. Thank you for presenting this important information to the devotee community. Of course this is the position of Srila Prabhupad that I have always felt but again thank you for substantiating it in so many ways. I have already started sharing it with some of my disciples.

Yours in Service,

Turiya Das

Swami - March 30, 2009 1:51 pm

I received this note from my dear Godbrother Turiya das this morning. Turiya das was among the first devotees I encountered at a Jimi Hendrix concert in Honolulu in May of 1969, and it was he who introduced me to Bhagavad-Gita As It Is and invited me to visit the temple.

Dear Babhru Prabhu,

Dandavats. I have just completed reading your book. Thank you for presenting this important information to the devotee community. Of course this is the position of Srila Prabhupad that I have always felt but again thank you for substantiating it in so many ways. I have already started sharing it with some of my disciples.

Yours in Service,

Turiya Das

:Cow: :Cow: :Cow: :Cow:

Prema-bhakti - March 31, 2009 5:07 pm

This is a really good question and deserves some elaboration.
Here are a few verses from BRS and specifically the one cited for this argument:

So, that is very interesting, especially VCT's comments about the type of rati changing and "degrading" down the scale. Interesting because of that scaling of rasa. One guess I could make about this is that out of his own bhava, VCT is warning against offense so that you don't slide down or your bhava does not become "inferior". I'm not very satisfied with the suggestion I'm making, but it is just an idea. Another idea is that when VCT talks about degrading rati, he doesn't mess with the top three, madhurya, vatsalya and sakhya. He says that madhurya goes all the way down to dasya, which I think could be argued as "less intense" and more of a general serving mood, without the specificity of the three above it. Am I making sense? He doesn't suggest that one "full" rasa like madhurya degrades to another "full" rasa like vatsalya...

Babhru addresses this "downgrading" idea very briefly in his book, but it is very sensible and therefore doesn't require much input. Some people suggest Akincana KDB is one such case and he was downgraded to sakhya because of the "offense" of not preaching per BSST's order. But because AKDB never exhibited madhurya sentiment, it cannot be said that he previously held a "higher" sentiment and henceforth manifested the "lower" position. Makes sense right?

So, as for upgrading - as stated in the first verse, the mercy of the great devotee has the ability to upgrade bhava from bhavabhasa - turn it into REAL bhava, make it purer, upgrade it in quality, etc. Not that the type of rati changes. Stayi means steady, or fixed. One's attraction can become more intense, but not different.

These are very interesting comments Madan especially about VCT and his own bhava. Yes, the downgrades seem relative to madhurya-bhava as an "upgrade" would also be a "downgrade" for those cultivating sakhya-bhava.

Syamasundara - March 31, 2009 5:24 pm

an "upgrade" would also be a "downgrade" for those cultivating sakhya-bhava.

I wouldn't quite put it like that, unless you're just trying to say that it just wouldn't feel right, or like home.

Prema-bhakti - March 31, 2009 5:28 pm

I wouldn't quite put it like that, unless you're just trying to say that it just wouldn't feel right, or like home.

That's what I meant. Just using the terminology presented and why it is in quotes.

Babhru Das - March 31, 2009 8:32 pm

A digression here, for which I apologize. As Swami mentioned the other day on the call, I've been temporarily (at least) suspended from giving class here in Alachua. For the last three weeks, the more interesting part of the story is that they've really botched the way they handled it. The order was apparently something ad hoc, perhaps from one of the managing team members, and I was bumped from a class I was scheduled to give with a lie. No one said anything to me. There has been a bit of a stir about this for the last few days. Today I finally met with Tamohara, who is one of the local GBC members (Sesa is the other) and the chair of the temple Board of Directors. For those who are interested, here's a brief report I sent to a couple of local friends.

Well, Tamohara finally spoke with me today. We talked for a while this morning. With regard to the way things have been handled, he took the fall. He said that he was apparently responsible for contacting me, and that he dropped the ball. So that part of the discussion was over pretty quickly.

The more substantive issue is the nature of my relationship with Tripurari Maharaja. Tamohara said that he had meant for some time to talk with me as a friend, not a member of the GBC or anything, about whether I had considered the implications of my eventually taking sannyasa from Maharaja, especially the impact on my relationship with ISKCON. I said that I certainly had, especially since it's a concern my wife has raised on a couple of occasions, and that it's too bad that, at least for the time being, I wouldn't be allowed to go to many ISKCON centers and wouldn't be allowed to give class. But I don't think I'd be without anything to do, and I don't believe my relationship with Srila Prabhupada would suffer because my work wouldn't be recognized by the GBC. We talked about a lot of things, but that was sort of the gist. He said he'd think things over and meet with the board. I also told him that any decision should be based on the existing guidelines. However, if the board felt it necessary to bar me in order to maintain peace, integrity, or whatever in the temple, even though I think it's a mistake, I would certainly accept that in the interest of comity.

The thing is that I'm surprised they asked me to get on the list for class after I returned from Madhuvan. Their guideline say that we can't speak contrary to the way Srila Prabhupada presented Lord Chaitanya's teachings, as interpreted by the GBC, and that we can't proselytize, directly or indirectly. Tamohara admitted that I haven't transgressed the guidelines. I suggested that they may have to adjust them. When I mentioned this later to Pundarika Vidyanidhi (who was involved with the publication of Chaitanya Bhagavat), he asked how they'd need to adjust them. "No one with any trace of affection for anyone outside of ISKCON can't give class?" Laughing, I agreed that seemed to be the essence.

Anyway, that's how the temple turns today . . .

In the meantime, I have service and good company here, for which I'm very grateful.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - March 31, 2009 8:37 pm

A digression here, for which I apologize. As Swami mentioned the other day on the call, I've been temporarily (at least) suspended from giving class here in Alachua. For the last three weeks, the more interesting part of the story is that they've really botched the way they handled it. The order was apparently something ad hoc, perhaps from one of the managing team members, and I was bumped from a class I was scheduled to give with a lie. No one said anything to me. There has been a bit of a stir about this for the last few days. Today I finally met with Tamohara, who is one of the local GBC members (Sesa is the other) and the chair of the temple Board of Directors. For those who are interested, here's a brief report I sent to a couple of local friends.

Well, Tamohara finally spoke with me today. We talked for a while this morning. With regard to the way things have been handled, he took the fall. He said that he was apparently responsible for contacting me, and that he dropped the ball. So that part of the discussion was over pretty quickly.

The more substantive issue is the nature of my relationship with Tripurari Maharaja. Tamohara said that he had meant for some time to talk with me as a friend, not a member of the GBC or anything, about whether I had considered the implications of my eventually taking sannyasa from Maharaja, especially the impact on my relationship with ISKCON. I said that I certainly had, especially since it's a concern my wife has raised on a couple of occasions, and that it's too bad that, at least for the time being, I wouldn't be allowed to go to many ISKCON centers and wouldn't be allowed to give class. But I don't think I'd be without anything to do, and I don't believe my relationship with Srila Prabhupada would suffer because my work wouldn't be recognized by the GBC. We talked about a lot of things, but that was sort of the gist. He said he'd think things over and meet with the board. I also told him that any decision should be based on the existing guidelines. However, if the board felt it necessary to bar me in order to maintain peace, integrity, or whatever in the temple, even though I think it's a mistake, I would certainly accept that in the interest of comity.

The thing is that I'm surprised they asked me to get on the list for class after I returned from Madhuvan. Their guideline say that we can't speak contrary to the way Srila Prabhupada presented Lord Chaitanya's teachings, as interpreted by the GBC, and that we can't proselytize, directly or indirectly. Tamohara admitted that I haven't transgressed the guidelines. I suggested that they may have to adjust them. When I mentioned this later to Pundarika Vidyanidhi (who was involved with the publication of Chaitanya Bhagavat), he asked how they'd need to adjust them. "No one with any trace of affection for anyone outside of ISKCON can't give class?" Laughing, I agreed that seemed to be the essence.

Anyway, that's how the temple turns today . . .

In the meantime, I have service and good company here, for which I'm very grateful.

How is Sesa? Is he supportive of you or antagonistic?

Babhru Das - March 31, 2009 9:10 pm

Sesa has said nothing to me about it. It was he who was substituted for me this last Saturday. This is all a symptom of a considerable degree of dysfunction that persists among the temple's leadership and among different factions of the community, to the extent to which it can be said to be a community.

Prema-bhakti - April 1, 2009 12:24 pm

This was on Dandavats about the departing of my dear friend Dadu, Dhiren Sen. Somehow this got by the editors. :Cow:

I will miss you Dadu. :Cow:

http://www.dandavats.com/?p=7117

Braja-sundari Dasi - April 1, 2009 1:17 pm

This was on Dandavats about the departing of my dear friend Dadu, Dhiren Sen. Somehow this got by the editors.

I will miss you Dadu. :Broken Heart:

http://www.dandavats.com/?p=7117

Oh,no! I won`t be able to meet him again! He was such a nice and humble person!

Syamasundara - April 1, 2009 1:17 pm

Somebody conceive a baby NOW!

I want the company of this soul. So sad about the events at Krsna-Balarama mandir; so wrong. Thank God for our Guru Maharaja!

Babhru Das - April 1, 2009 1:40 pm

The world is clearly poorer for Letter Dadu's absence. I can only lament that I never had the chance to meet him.

Somehow, a simple link to a booklet about Srila Prabhupada's apparent affinity cannot remain on Dandavats. aarrgh!

Nitaisundara Das - April 1, 2009 3:53 pm

Wow. This is amazing.

Madan Gopal Das - April 1, 2009 4:11 pm

http://www.dandavats.com/?p=7117

The part where he speaks of his aspiration is SO sweet. :Broken Heart: I wish I had met him. All glories to such a sweet soul with such nistha! Thank you for posting this.

Nitaisundara Das - April 1, 2009 4:53 pm

So busted:

http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03...torials4296.htm

This is Deena Bandhu's article wherein he says the following, directly contradicting Dadu:

"I reasoned that Srila Prabhupada has built a house for the whole world to live, and if this fellow is willing to do service, then why not let him join. His attraction for sakhya rasa was also quite charming as I feel myself attracted in this way, and I agreed with him, that at the lotus feet of Krishna Balaram, he would definitely achieve his goal. So I gave him the chance to stay. "

I cant help but laugh..

Braja-sundari Dasi - April 1, 2009 5:30 pm

So busted:
http://www.harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/03...torials4296.htm

This is Deena Bandhu's article wherein he says the following, directly contradicting Dadu:

"I reasoned that Srila Prabhupada has built a house for the whole world to live, and if this fellow is willing to do service, then why not let him join. His attraction for sakhya rasa was also quite charming as I feel myself attracted in this way, and I agreed with him, that at the lotus feet of Krishna Balaram, he would definitely achieve his goal. So I gave him the chance to stay. "

I cant help but laugh..

It is probably possible that he just doesn`t remember what he said so many years ago and his memory made a new story. For him this conversation was not as important as was for Dadu... just one more Indian guy wanting to join...

Syama Gopala Dasa - April 1, 2009 5:39 pm

I remember how we waited for Dadu in the pouring rain...

Nitaisundara Das - April 1, 2009 5:45 pm

It is probably possible that he just doesn`t remember what he said so many years ago and his memory made a new story. For him this conversation was not as important as was for Dadu... just one more Indian guy wanting to join...

That's a generous reading... But he also said he felt attraction for sakhya rasa, I would hope he did not make that up, but Dadhu said he was preaching you cannot get sakyha rasa at KB mandir. It is possible that he would have attraction for sakhya rasa but not think it was to be had at KB mandir, but extremely unlikely, and kind of calls into question the substance of his attraction.

Braja-sundari Dasi - April 1, 2009 7:54 pm

. But he also said he felt attraction for sakhya rasa,

Yes, it surprised me greatly. I always thought he wants to be a gopi. He was associated with Narayana Maharaja for some time as far as I remember. But on the other side during his parikramas he sings Krsna Kanhaya Dauji ka Bhaiya much more frequently than Radhe Syam, so who knows...

Syamasundara - April 1, 2009 8:14 pm

Or maybe Dina Bandhu was referring to the practice of meditating on a sakhya-bhava mantra the way Dadhu meant. Who knows. I'm sad I never ever heard of this devotee before.

Nitaisundara Das - April 1, 2009 9:10 pm

Yes, it surprised me greatly. I always thought he wants to be a gopi. He was associated with Narayana Maharaja for some time as far as I remember. But on the other side during his parikramas he sings Krsna Kanhaya Dauji ka Bhaiya much more frequently than Radhe Syam, so who knows...

I suspected by the way Dadu said he was preaching and the timeframe that Dina Bandhu may have had some contact with Narayana Maharaja... Alas, perhaps his bhava was downgraded due to apradha, and now he will be stuck with Srila Prabhupada eating Krsna's laddus and katchoris. :Broken Heart: :Applause:

Prema-bhakti - April 1, 2009 10:16 pm

Speaking of association of great souls. I wonder what the story is with Hrsikesa Maharaja (Ter Kadamba Baba), the caretaker of Ter Kadamba. We met him when we went on parikrama with GM and DDS a few years ago. TKB set up his ista deva Krsna Balarama on a makeshift altar in the temple room for our visit. He has fixed up Ter Kadamba so nicely and has more recently built a big altar for his Krsna Balarama in the courtyard.

I would really like to spend some time there and hear his story.

Atmananda Dasa - April 2, 2009 12:09 am

All glories to Dadu Prabhu.

I'm sure that Dhanurdar Swami will have some most appropriate glorification of Dadu Prabhu. He always told us stories about Dadu Prabhu on parikrama. Dhanudar Swami always spoke very very highly of him and relished with ecstasy telling about him. Surely Dadu Prabhu will attain his desired destination.

Swami - April 2, 2009 12:52 am

Dadu's lament is telling. He laments at not being able to do sakhya-rasa bhajana, but within his lamentation it is clear that he knows his precise destination in Gaura and Krsna-lilas and aspires intensely to attain these esoteric destinations. What more is bhajana than this? Nama cintamani.

Jaya Rama! Jaya Krsna! Jaya Dadu!

Guru-nistha Das - April 2, 2009 4:34 am

wow, that was the nicest thing I've ever read on Dandavats.

Prema-bhakti - April 2, 2009 3:51 pm

Here is glorification of Dadu from the blog of my longtime friend, Narottama dasa. He is the godfather of my sons, a professional writer and musician in New York, a disciple of DDS, and oh yeah he's openly gay. :LMAO:

Dadu touched so many lives of so many people from all walks of life by his simple and yet profound bhakti. His example spoke so much louder than his words.

"Dadu was one of the first people I met in Vṛndāvana. We were unlikely friends — I was 20 years old when we met, while he was 72 — but I was taken by his boyish charm and carefree life. Dadu was a simple village letter-carrier, but you’d never know it from the way everyone loved and revered him. In Vraja, he was more than a mailman; he was its emotional center. The idea of a Vṛndāvana without Dadu never occurred to me because every time I opened the taxi door, every time my foot hit the warm sands of Vṛndāvana, he was there to welcome me. His palms pressed in humility, he’d say, “Jai Radhe, beta.”

That he sometimes called me “beta,” or son, is appropriate. Everyone in town called him dadu, or grandfather, and we were well aware of the irony: even in his seventies, Dadu had more youthful vigor than most of us. He was alive with love and curiosity and a near-mythical affection for Vṛndāvana that inspired him to walk completely barefoot out of respect for his home. He took off his shoes when he came to Vṛndāvana in 1985, and because he refused to leave Vraja — for anything — he never found a compelling reason to put them back on.

It’s been seven years since I last saw Dadu. The last time we spoke, I asked him out to lunch and he obliged me. He ate from a metal plate, his hand playfully mixing the rice and dal until his fingertips were yellowish from the spices. He asked about New York, mostly because he had met so many nice New Yorkers in Vṛndāvana. He asked about my musical career, and quite innocently asked if I ever sang about Krishna. He also asked about my family, but I declined to answer out of fear that he might be too soft-hearted to hear about such unpleasant things.

“When I’m in Vṛndāvana,” I told him, “you are dadu.”

Dadu averted his glance, humbly embarrassed, and yet visibly grinning into his chādar. He nodded his head and said, “Acha. Jai Radhe, beta.”

Dadu passed away on Tuesday morning. He was 87 years young."

Gandiva Dasi - April 4, 2009 5:26 am

All Glories to Dadu!

Regarding the quote from Sivarama Swami's messge board

"This instruction found in the Teachings of Lord Caitanya by Srila Prabhupada is very useful.

TLC CH. 17

Quote:

“There is a specific difference between the pure devotee and the confidential devotee. Different potencies of the Lord are engaged in serving the Supreme Lord in different transcendental relationships. They are situated in conjugal love, in parental affection, in friendship and in servitude. By impartially judging, one can find that the internal potencies of the Supreme Lord who are engaged in conjugal love with the Lord are the best of all devotees. Thus both internal devotees and confidential devotees are attracted by the conjugal love of the Supreme Absolute Truth. These are the most confidential devotees of Lord Caitanya. Other pure devotees, who are more or less attached to Śrī Nityānanda Prabhu and Advaita Prabhu, are attracted by other transcendental relationships, such as parental affection, friendship and servitorship. When such devotees are attached to the activities of Lord Caitanya, they at once become confidential devotees in conjugal love with the Supreme Lord,.”

Considering that Srila Prabhupada was well attached to the activities of Lord Caitanya and not isolated to an attachment to Lord Nityananda or Advaita Acarya, it is safe to assume that he is of the madhurya-rasa group."

I was thinking about the examples of Rama bhaktas in the CC and today the Sanga articla on Rama Navami, reminded me, devotees like Murari Gupta, Anupama(Vallabha) and Ramadasa Vipra - attached to the activities of Lord Caitanya, but remained fixed in their spiritual sentiments as far as I understand. In the article Maharaj mentioned regarding Caitanya Mahaprabhu's teachings (He) "taught Krsna bhakti to such an extreme that he converted some of these long-standing Rama bhaktas into Krsna bhaktas but that was not always the case". Regarding Anupama when Caitanya Mahaprabhu heard that he could not give up his attraction for Rama said "Glorious is that devotee who would not give up his Lord and glorious is that Lord who would not give up his devotee !" Wouldn't the same hold true for devotees determined in their attraction for a particular rasa?

Bhrigu - April 6, 2009 7:39 am

Here is something from Jagat's blog:

Then I met Dhanurdhara Swami, who is here with a yoga group from Washington, giving classes to them on a quasi daily basis. We had a long talk covering many things, but he was mostly concerned about Babhru's new book that was published by Tripurari Maharaj, Oh My Friend! Oh My Friend!. The purpose of the book is to argue that Prabhupada was really in sakhya-rasa. Tripurari Maharaj sent me the URL a couple of weeks ago, but I have not read it. It seems a little outside of my scope, but Dhanurdhara's principal question was regarding the poem that Prabhupada wrote on the Jaladuta and what I thought of the translation. I just looked at what Babhru wrote and it pretty much matches what I told Dhanurdhara. The issue gets into some pretty thorny aspects of Guru Tattva though.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - April 6, 2009 2:06 pm

All Glories to Dadu!

Regarding the quote from Sivarama Swami's messge board

Considering that Srila Prabhupada was well attached to the activities of Lord Caitanya and not isolated to an attachment to Lord Nityananda or Advaita Acarya, it is safe to assume that he is of the madhurya-rasa group."

who said this? Sivarama swami or somebody else? If SS said this then clearly he has backtracked from his earlier stand.

Nitaisundara Das - April 6, 2009 2:45 pm

No this was this crazy guy Ksamabuddhi, although other things that SRS said do indicate he has at least adjusted his initial support (i.e. backed out).

Atmananda Dasa - April 6, 2009 2:49 pm

Here is something from Jagat's blog:

>"The purpose of the book is to argue that Prabhupada was really in sakhya-rasa."

My perception of O My Friend is that it is an honest glorification of Srila Prabhupada. If it is read carefully and completely, then it is clear that the authors made several attempts to harmonize other viewpoints, especially with the quotes from Jaiva Dharma and Srila Sridhar Swami. In my opinion, the book is far from argumentative. The point of book was not to argue, but to glorify Srila Prabhupada.

Atmananda Dasa - April 6, 2009 3:00 pm

The culture of ISKCON is such that anything that comes from any other Gaudiya Vaisnava outside the institution is viewed with the suspicion that there is a hidden motive. Don't be suprised if people change their opinions of O My Friend. The next thing you know there will be a GBC resolution declaring that it is deviant and no one should read it. Who cares? Even though Srila Prabhupada did such incredible amazing preaching all over the world, some of his godbrothers still doubted him. Its the same old song and dance.

Prema-bhakti - April 6, 2009 3:25 pm

Don't be suprised if people change their opinions of O My Friend. The next thing you know there will be a GBC resolution declaring that it is deviant and no one should read it. Who cares? Even though Srila Prabhupada did such incredible amazing preaching all over the world, some of his godbrothers still doubted him. Its the same old song and dance.

I agree. ISKCON has a lot at stake. Prabhupada's own mission's leaders have very little if any basic understanding of who Srila Prabhupada is in Krsna-lila as pointed out by Dadu the sadhu. Many who have had some interest have heard from NM (ironically outside of ISKCON) and thus the Madhurya-rasa influence. It could be a bit uncomfortable and embarassing, don't you think? :blush:

Prema-bhakti - April 6, 2009 3:33 pm

Better yet imagine that Srila Prabhupada is revealing himself to "deviants" outside of ISKCON. :blush:

Madan Gopal Das - April 11, 2009 3:02 am

Maybe it is already noticed, but somebody needs to clear the spam comments that are getting posted on the "oh my friend" comments page.

Babhru Das - April 11, 2009 10:29 am

I have been deleting 3 or 4 a day, and this morning there were 5.

Prahlad Das - April 11, 2009 3:02 pm

I have been deleting 3 or 4 a day, and this morning there were 5.

Is there a way to moderate the comments before publishing?

Babhru Das - April 19, 2009 10:43 am

Sivarama Maharaja posted this on his site:

SRS: Here is a letter by a senior devotee outlining his opinion on recenet exchanges and the topic of Srila Prabhupada’s Svarupa.

You wrote me and requested that I read and write to you a little about

Babru’s book about Srila Prabhupada’s rasa. It took me time before I

could get around to reading it, and now I’ve done so.

I read it somewhat quickly, but I probably absorbed most of the

arguements and thoughts on the issue.

I found that the strongest points were the words spoken by Srila

Prabhupada himself on the issue, most of them remembered by early

devotees.

It seemed to me that most of the other argument presented by the

devotees were basically arguments from the intellectual platform. Those

type of arguments I found inconclusive and I found myself able to offer

similar intellectual counter-arguments. In other words, I didn’t find

the paths of the arguments offered extremely tight.

I am sure that someone who desires to do so could weave together a

series of arguments indicating Madhyura-rasa from Prabhupada’s inital

worship of his own Dieties, Radha Govinda, his beginning Rathayatra

(clearly Madhurya-rasa) on Harrison Road, his taking the Gopi-bhava

Sannyasa Mantra from Keshava Maharaja, and his gaining residence at

Radha-Damodara Mandir under the shelter of Sri Rupa and Sri Jiva.

I don’t find myself able to contradict the words spoken by HDG BR Sridar

Maharaja, but I found myself especially attracted to a sentence quoted

by him: “”We must go to that plane and then we should deal with these

things.” (page 34)

Although Maharaja was making the point in reference to something else, I

found it relevant. That mood that he expressed in those words sums up my

own thoughts towards the topic, which are that such topics are required,

when the issue truly burns, due to neccessity within the heart of a

disciple. Before that time, it is non-essential, intellectual, somewhat

forced issue. And I’ll add, the kind of issue that could easily just

create further grounds for disagreements amongsth both individuals and

groups. I would would imagine that this will really be the case since

Sridhar Maharaja and Narayana Maharaja have opposing views, and their

followers will/are be inclined to support the viewpoints of their

teachers.

It seems to me that one should be careful when dealing with the

spiritual sentiments of others. And although Babru has written his

booklet carefully, I personally don’t think an internet debate on the

topic is what’s required.

So it’s not the kind of discussion that I’d personally be inclined to

enter into, especially in the age of internet

everyone-should-state-their-opinion modus operandi.

I was somewhat suprised that quotations from conversations with

Prabhupada and the books of Prabhupada that would have been difficult to

fit into the book’s thesis were not either addressed or included.

Certainly the author was aware of them. Quotations such as:

Prabhupada: Everything is theory. No practical. [break] …ten

direction. Eight direction, corner, and northeast, east-west, and up and

down. So everywhere He is present. So Krsna has got ten hands. So my

father used to say, “When Krsna takes your money or possession in ten

hands, how you can protect it with two hands? And when He give you in

ten hands, how much you can take in two hands?” (laughs) So in my case

it has become practical. Everything He has taken in ten hands, and now

He is giving in ten hands. (laughter) I am practically experiencing. My

Guru Maharaja ordered me, “You do this.” I was trying to save my

business, my family, with two hands, and Krsna took it in ten hands. And

now, after making me beggar, He is giving me, ten hands: “You take as

much as you like.” Now I am thinking of my father’s instruction. [break]

…ambition was that I become a great de… bhagavata. That was his…

He used to invite so many saintly persons, and he would pray, “Please

bless my son”-I was very pet son-”that he may become a devotee of

Radharani. Radharani may bless him.” That was his only prayer. (Morning

walk, Feb 10, 1976, Mayapura)

Thus both mother and son decided to take shelter of the lotus feet of

the Lord because that is the only solution to all material problems. It

is indicated in this connection that Dhruva Maharaja left his father’s

capital city to go to a secluded place to search out the Supreme

Personality of Godhead. It is the instruction of Prahlada Maharaja also

that if one is seeking peace of mind he should free himself from all

contamination of family life and take shelter of the Supreme Godhead by

going to the forest. To the Gaudiya Vaisnava this forest is the forest

of Vrnda, or Vrndavana. If one takes shelter of Vrndavana under

VrndavaneSvari, Srimati Radharani, certainly all the problems of his

life are solved very easily.

Many saintly persons used to visit my father’s house. My father was

Vaisnava. He was Vaisnava, and he wanted me to become a Vaisnava.

Whenever some saintly person would come, he would ask him, “Please bless

my son that he can become a servant of Radharani.” That was his prayer.

Prabhupada: Yes. Because he was a pure Vaisnava. And he wanted me to

become like this. He was praying Radharani. He was praying to Radharani.

And any saintly person would come, he would simply say, “Give blessings

to my son that he may become a Radharani’s servant.” That was my

father’s prayer. He never prayed that “My son may become very rich man.”

He never prayed like that. Actually, his ardent desire that his son may

become a Vaisnava. And my Guru Maharaja’s training has put me this

position. That I have admitted.

In a similar mood but going somewhat further, especially–

There is no harm in taking birth again and again. Our only desire should

be to take birth under the care of a Vaisnava. Fortunately we had the

opportunity to be born of a Vaisnava father who took care of us very

nicely. He prayed to Srimati Radharani that in the future we would

become a servant of the eternal consort of Sri Krsna. Thus somehow or

other we are now engaged in that service. (CC Antya 1.24)

Also, I cannot understand the benefit of publicly pursuing such a topic,

especially since there’s an underlying disagreement on the conclusion

between SM and NM–and their followers. That in and of itself insures

dissention, imho.

My response:

Maharaja, thanks for sharing this thoughtful note. As I’ve said before, I also find Srila Prabhupada’s direct statements the most persuasive part of the essay. Those statements and his “Prayer to the Lotus Feet of Krishna” are the heart of my argument, to the extent I make one. Everything else is there to support what we hear—what we feel—in those plain assertions. And yes, they’re admittedly intellectual. As someone who has spent most of his adult life as a teacher, either in gurukulas or colleges, I felt it necessary to engage both my intelligence and my readers’. Other careful readers have found the support quite persuasive.

But I also suppose I should remind my readers that I never claim to make an airtight case for any claim other than the possibility that Srila Prabhupada may be in a bhava other than madhurya. I’ve made it clear that this is a topic that cannot be settled by argument. As your correspondent kindly reminds us, Srila Sridhara Maharaja exhorts us go to that plane so we may become competent to deal with such subject matters. Our real necessity, as I’ve pointed out, is a progressive commitment to surrender so we may indeed approach that plane of existence.

And I think I’ve also made it clear that I don’t find the subject particularly amenable to debate, especially the kind of “debate” we generally find on the internet. However, I do think it may be useful and enlivening to discuss it among devotees whose hearts and minds are open. I do not intend to create controversy; indeed, the controversy has been around for some time. Rather, as I’ve said before, I perceive a trail of clues that Srila Prabhupada left, and it leads to a lake of nectar. I found drinking in that lake hard to resist, and others have expressed their appreciation for the dim light I’ve managed to focus on that trail. I never doubted that not all devotees would have the same appreciation for such a discussion, and for a number of good reasons. But I hoped others might find it enjoyable and edifying to discuss these things: kathayantas ca mam nityam tusyanti ca ramanti ca.

With regard to the quotations about Srila Prabhupada’s early life and his father’s ambition that he be a servant of Srimati Radharani, I am certainly aware of them and don’t find that they complicate the matter at all. In fact, as you know very well, there’s a certain sector of sakhas whose love is reposed as much in Radharani as in Krishna. If Srila Prabhupada identifies with that group, as some evidence may indicate, that could certainly harmonize those sentiments nicely. It may be that I could address these quotations more directly if I have an opportunity for another edition, which would certainly add even more sweetness to the mix.

Please thank your correspondent for the thoughtful response.

Syamasundara - April 19, 2009 3:37 pm

No objection about avoiding an internet debate, but as far as the "counterargument", I can't but think: What if the situation were reversed, and SP's father had begged for blessings to make him a follower of the gopas?

They would be quick to say: "Well, that's what his father hoped for him, what does it have to do with SP's actual bhava? It's not like SP was begging the sadhus himself."

This raises another point; if SP's father had asked the sadhus to make him a servant of the gopas, that would have been a very specific and unmistakable request, and by contrast, this makes us realize that the opposite is not true. All the Gaudiyas are devotees of Srimati Radharani, because we are devotees of Caitanya Mahaprabhu, who is in the mood of Sri Radha, and who came to give Vraja bhakti. We need to think according to context. In India many worship Krsna: some as Laddu Gopala, some as the speaker of the Gita, most think of him as an avatara of Vishnu, and many as saguna Brahman. So to be a devotee of Krsna may mean many things, but to be a devotee of Radha restricts it to those who want Vrndavana bhakti, and Radharani is the undisputed Vrndavanesvari. Now, SP said I'm in the mood of a cowherdboy; how more specific can it get? Any other reference to being interested in the blessings of Radha must be taken in light of that. Also, it's interesting to notice how the concept and reality of the priya-narmas escapes most.

Citta Hari Dasa - April 19, 2009 4:06 pm

Also, it's interesting to notice how the concept and reality of the priya-narmas escapes most.

Especially since Babhru specifically pointed out in the article that that reality easily harmonizes the madhurya/sakhya affinities.

Babhru Das - April 19, 2009 4:41 pm

I don't know who that particular correspondent is, but he admitted his reading was cursory. I suggested, perhaps to subtly here, that more careful reading would be helpful. This essay is over 14,000 words and covers quite a bit of territory. Those engaged in scholarship in every field have a habit of the mind: read a piece once through to get the gist, then return and read more carefully, making notes, asking questions, etc. Then go back and read again. That's how scholarship advances, to the extent that it does. I'm afraid Sivarama Maharaja's friend has some homework to do before he's qualified to discuss further. (At least he did give it that one quick reading. That's more than some critics have managed.)

All we're asking is that those who do read this do so with open hearts and minds, as Sivarama Maharaja seems to have done. If they do, it should be apparent how the possibility of Srila Prabhupada's following the priya-narma sakhas may harmonize anything that might otherwise be seen as a complication, rendering it an ornament.

As Syamu says, all the Gaudiyas are servants of Radharani. Everyone in Vraja lives in a way that enhances her relationship with Nanda-kumara. As Srila Prabhupada might say (as we see in the title of Srutakirti's memoir), "What is the difficulty?"

Swami - April 19, 2009 5:17 pm

Sivarama Maharaja posted this on his site:
SRS: Here is a letter by a senior devotee outlining his opinion on recenet exchanges and the topic of Srila Prabhupada’s Svarupa.

You wrote me and requested that I read and write to you a little about

Babru’s book about Srila Prabhupada’s rasa. It took me time before I

could get around to reading it, and now I’ve done so.

I read it somewhat quickly, but I probably absorbed most of the

arguements and thoughts on the issue.

I found that the strongest points were the words spoken by Srila

Prabhupada himself on the issue, most of them remembered by early

devotees.

It seemed to me that most of the other argument presented by the

devotees were basically arguments from the intellectual platform. Those

type of arguments I found inconclusive and I found myself able to offer

similar intellectual counter-arguments. In other words, I didn’t find

the paths of the arguments offered extremely tight.

I am sure that someone who desires to do so could weave together a

series of arguments indicating Madhyura-rasa from Prabhupada’s inital

worship of his own Dieties, Radha Govinda, his beginning Rathayatra

(clearly Madhurya-rasa) on Harrison Road, his taking the Gopi-bhava

Sannyasa Mantra from Keshava Maharaja, and his gaining residence at

Radha-Damodara Mandir under the shelter of Sri Rupa and Sri Jiva.

I don’t find myself able to contradict the words spoken by HDG BR Sridar

Maharaja, but I found myself especially attracted to a sentence quoted

by him: “”We must go to that plane and then we should deal with these

things.” (page 34)

Although Maharaja was making the point in reference to something else, I

found it relevant. That mood that he expressed in those words sums up my

own thoughts towards the topic, which are that such topics are required,

when the issue truly burns, due to neccessity within the heart of a

disciple. Before that time, it is non-essential, intellectual, somewhat

forced issue. And I’ll add, the kind of issue that could easily just

create further grounds for disagreements amongsth both individuals and

groups. I would would imagine that this will really be the case since

Sridhar Maharaja and Narayana Maharaja have opposing views, and their

followers will/are be inclined to support the viewpoints of their

teachers.

It seems to me that one should be careful when dealing with the

spiritual sentiments of others. And although Babru has written his

booklet carefully, I personally don’t think an internet debate on the

topic is what’s required.

So it’s not the kind of discussion that I’d personally be inclined to

enter into, especially in the age of internet

everyone-should-state-their-opinion modus operandi.

I was somewhat suprised that quotations from conversations with

Prabhupada and the books of Prabhupada that would have been difficult to

fit into the book’s thesis were not either addressed or included.

Certainly the author was aware of them. Quotations such as:

Prabhupada: Everything is theory. No practical. [break] …ten

direction. Eight direction, corner, and northeast, east-west, and up and

down. So everywhere He is present. So Krsna has got ten hands. So my

father used to say, “When Krsna takes your money or possession in ten

hands, how you can protect it with two hands? And when He give you in

ten hands, how much you can take in two hands?” (laughs) So in my case

it has become practical. Everything He has taken in ten hands, and now

He is giving in ten hands. (laughter) I am practically experiencing. My

Guru Maharaja ordered me, “You do this.” I was trying to save my

business, my family, with two hands, and Krsna took it in ten hands. And

now, after making me beggar, He is giving me, ten hands: “You take as

much as you like.” Now I am thinking of my father’s instruction. [break]

…ambition was that I become a great de… bhagavata. That was his…

He used to invite so many saintly persons, and he would pray, “Please

bless my son”-I was very pet son-”that he may become a devotee of

Radharani. Radharani may bless him.” That was his only prayer. (Morning

walk, Feb 10, 1976, Mayapura)

Thus both mother and son decided to take shelter of the lotus feet of

the Lord because that is the only solution to all material problems. It

is indicated in this connection that Dhruva Maharaja left his father’s

capital city to go to a secluded place to search out the Supreme

Personality of Godhead. It is the instruction of Prahlada Maharaja also

that if one is seeking peace of mind he should free himself from all

contamination of family life and take shelter of the Supreme Godhead by

going to the forest. To the Gaudiya Vaisnava this forest is the forest

of Vrnda, or Vrndavana. If one takes shelter of Vrndavana under

VrndavaneSvari, Srimati Radharani, certainly all the problems of his

life are solved very easily.

Many saintly persons used to visit my father’s house. My father was

Vaisnava. He was Vaisnava, and he wanted me to become a Vaisnava.

Whenever some saintly person would come, he would ask him, “Please bless

my son that he can become a servant of Radharani.” That was his prayer.

Prabhupada: Yes. Because he was a pure Vaisnava. And he wanted me to

become like this. He was praying Radharani. He was praying to Radharani.

And any saintly person would come, he would simply say, “Give blessings

to my son that he may become a Radharani’s servant.” That was my

father’s prayer. He never prayed that “My son may become very rich man.”

He never prayed like that. Actually, his ardent desire that his son may

become a Vaisnava. And my Guru Maharaja’s training has put me this

position. That I have admitted.

In a similar mood but going somewhat further, especially–

There is no harm in taking birth again and again. Our only desire should

be to take birth under the care of a Vaisnava. Fortunately we had the

opportunity to be born of a Vaisnava father who took care of us very

nicely. He prayed to Srimati Radharani that in the future we would

become a servant of the eternal consort of Sri Krsna. Thus somehow or

other we are now engaged in that service. (CC Antya 1.24)

Also, I cannot understand the benefit of publicly pursuing such a topic,

especially since there’s an underlying disagreement on the conclusion

between SM and NM–and their followers. That in and of itself insures

dissention, imho.

My response:

Maharaja, thanks for sharing this thoughtful note. As I’ve said before, I also find Srila Prabhupada’s direct statements the most persuasive part of the essay. Those statements and his “Prayer to the Lotus Feet of Krishna” are the heart of my argument, to the extent I make one. Everything else is there to support what we hear—what we feel—in those plain assertions. And yes, they’re admittedly intellectual. As someone who has spent most of his adult life as a teacher, either in gurukulas or colleges, I felt it necessary to engage both my intelligence and my readers’. Other careful readers have found the support quite persuasive.

But I also suppose I should remind my readers that I never claim to make an airtight case for any claim other than the possibility that Srila Prabhupada may be in a bhava other than madhurya. I’ve made it clear that this is a topic that cannot be settled by argument. As your correspondent kindly reminds us, Srila Sridhara Maharaja exhorts us go to that plane so we may become competent to deal with such subject matters. Our real necessity, as I’ve pointed out, is a progressive commitment to surrender so we may indeed approach that plane of existence.

And I think I’ve also made it clear that I don’t find the subject particularly amenable to debate, especially the kind of “debate” we generally find on the internet. However, I do think it may be useful and enlivening to discuss it among devotees whose hearts and minds are open. I do not intend to create controversy; indeed, the controversy has been around for some time. Rather, as I’ve said before, I perceive a trail of clues that Srila Prabhupada left, and it leads to a lake of nectar. I found drinking in that lake hard to resist, and others have expressed their appreciation for the dim light I’ve managed to focus on that trail. I never doubted that not all devotees would have the same appreciation for such a discussion, and for a number of good reasons. But I hoped others might find it enjoyable and edifying to discuss these things: kathayantas ca mam nityam tusyanti ca ramanti ca.

With regard to the quotations about Srila Prabhupada’s early life and his father’s ambition that he be a servant of Srimati Radharani, I am certainly aware of them and don’t find that they complicate the matter at all. In fact, as you know very well, there’s a certain sector of sakhas whose love is reposed as much in Radharani as in Krishna. If Srila Prabhupada identifies with that group, as some evidence may indicate, that could certainly harmonize those sentiments nicely. It may be that I could address these quotations more directly if I have an opportunity for another edition, which would certainly add even more sweetness to the mix.

Please thank your correspondent for the thoughtful response.

As you have pointed out, we have offered a scenario that harmonizes sakhya/madhurya sentiments/statements. Just to quote from one side as this person has is not impressive. He says that he thinks someone could write a similar paper showing Prabhupada to be in madhurya rasa. But what will the hypothetical author do with all the statements and sentiments expressed in sakhya rasa? This Maharaja's response runs something like this: "According to eye witness accounts Prabhupada said he is in sakhya rasa and I find that pretty compelling, as I do the remarks of Sridhara Maharaja, but at couple of other times he has kind of said he is a servant of Radha, but I just don't know. And anyway this is all just an intellectual exercise and therefore forced and inconclusive." And as the author mentions he looked over the book quickly, not carefully. So accordingly his response does not merit careful consideration. Overall I find his response to be response pathetic.

Babhru Das - April 19, 2009 5:43 pm

I had a hard time understanding why SRS would even post this, unless he otherwise has some regard for this "senior devotee." I mean, this fellow says he could think of some "intellectual" arguments as strong, but he fails to share any with Maharaja. I think pathetic is just the right word. I almost find more substance in some of the spam comments that find their way to the site. And I remember that I found the "objection" he posted earlier similarly insipid. The fact is that no one has come up with anything that substantially challenges our perception of Srila Prabhupada.

Swami - April 19, 2009 7:15 pm

I think pathetic is just the right word. I almost find more substance in some of the spam comments that find their way to the site.

:LMAO: :Big Grin: :Applause:

Swami - April 19, 2009 7:32 pm

Also the question remains as to why no one found the idea that Prabupada was in gopi-bhava a mere intellectual exercise, specuative, inconclusive, etc., at least not enough to write about it and dismiss it. Narayana Maharaja has been publishing and pushing this idea for a decade. The answer: Because they had no ability to respond otherwise to NM and thus bought into it themselves, and now being invested in this idea and having conveniently disassociated it with NM whom they have rejected, they find "O My friend" an inconvenient truth.

Babhru Das - April 19, 2009 7:57 pm

Also the question remains as to why no one found the idea that Prabupada was in gopi-bhava a mere intellectual exercise, specuative, inconclusive, etc., at least not enough to write about it and dismiss it. Narayana Maharaja has been publishing and pushing this idea for a decade. The answer: Because they had no ability to respond otherwise to NM and thus bought into it themselves, and now being invested in this idea and having conveniently disassociated it with NM whom they have rejected, they find "O My friend" an inconvenient truth.

:Big Grin: :LMAO: :Applause: :Applause:

Bijaya Kumara Das - April 20, 2009 1:55 am

Sivarama Maharaja posted this on his site:

"I found myself able to offer

similar intellectual counter-arguments."

and what were those arguements ? his arguements seem to be rather lame based on the request of an other not the actual expressions of His Divine Grace.

" And I’ll add, the kind of issue that could easily just

create further grounds for disagreements amongsth both individuals and

groups. "

His Divine Grace was very controversial but he spoke it in His own words, no disagreements just harmony. The discord is on the person with the wrong point of view or conception taking things out of context.

"“Please

bless my son”-I was very pet son-”that he may become a devotee of

Radharani. Radharani may bless him.” That was his only prayer. (Morning

walk, Feb 10, 1976, Mayapura)"

but this does not mean that he is not a gopa for the gopas serve her also ie carring secrets back and forth between the 2. this is not proof that he is a gopi

and it is just proof that one needs Rhadas' blessing if he is to have any enterance into Krsna lila.

Bijaya Kumara Das - April 20, 2009 2:01 am

I had a hard time understanding why SRS would even post this, unless he otherwise has some regard for this "senior devotee." I mean, this fellow says he could think of some "intellectual" arguments as strong, but he fails to share any with Maharaja. I think pathetic is just the right word. I almost find more substance in some of the spam comments that find their way to the site. And I remember that I found the "objection" he posted earlier similarly insipid. The fact is that no one has come up with anything that substantially challenges our perception of Srila Prabhupada.

Who knows it just may be done in an alias and the true writer may be the respondent ?

Bhrigu - April 20, 2009 5:49 am

Who knows it just may be done in an alias and the true writer may be the respondent ?

That was my first impression as well. Shivarama Maharaj divided the evidence in exactly the same way himself and came to the same conclusions.

Syama Gopala Dasa - April 29, 2009 6:35 pm

Has anyone read Dhanurdhara Maharaj's review? http://www.wavesofdevotion.com/2009/04/28/...nd-o-my-friend/

Would like to see a reaction to Dhanurdhara Mhj's doubts.

Atmananda Dasa - April 30, 2009 1:00 am

Has anyone read Dhanurdhara Maharaj's review? http://www.wavesofdevotion.com/2009/04/28/...nd-o-my-friend/

Would like to see a reaction to Dhanurdhara Mhj's doubts.

It appears that many people have the perception that O My Friend is arguing. Dhanurdara Swami appears to be most concerned about that. He doesn't want to see people start arguing about this issue and making offenses. I think that is definitely a valid point no matter what your perception of Srila Prabhupada is.

From my point of view, when I read O My Friend I never got the impression that Babru and Swami were arguing. I saw the book more as an honest glorification of their gurudeva. They dealt only with objections which were in disharmony with the siddhanta and they gave room for other sentiments to exist. They left plenty of room for genuine spiritual disagreement. In other words, Babru and Swami dealt with this subject in a responsible way. It appears that Dhanurdar Swami recognizes this in his review.

It seems that he is just saying: Its a nice book, but he doesn't see that the point can be objectively verified with the evidence given in the book. What can be said about that. I guess he's right. It is, after all, a spiritually subjective thing that is being discussed, so, its going to look different according to ones realization or aspiration.

Syamasundara - April 30, 2009 1:34 am

Still, it's not like SP said Oh, I like the cowherd boys (which he also said), he said: "My guru maharaja is in that mood, but I am more in this mood."

Everything else is just a corroboration.

Syamasundara - April 30, 2009 1:29 pm

Ok, now I've read the review. It was really inspiring to see Maharaja's sober and dignified tone in these days when people just attack each other on the internet. He was very comprehensive in his analysis, still most of what he said wasn't standing on solid ground.

Conveniently he didn't even mention the quotation I mentioned in the previous post. He did recognize how viewing everything from the point of view of priya-narma sakhya bhava would reconcile a lot of contradictions, but in his final analysis he went back to mentioning sakhya bhava as pure friendship and in opposition to madhurya.

As far as SP's father's wishes, SP also always used to say that all kinds of mayavadis and not better identified sadhus would come and visit his father's house, and his father himself didn't quite trust them, still he would follow the etiquette. If anything, these episodes show how Srila Gour Mohan was more of a Vaishnava than the sadhus he would receive. Being that it was Bengal, because of the cult of Sri Caitanya and/or even the misconceptions going on that BVT was fighting in those very days, even a Kali worshiper in Calcutta would have associated Vaishnavism with the rasa-lila and the worship of Radha-Krsna.

So, by speaking like that, SP's father was more talking of his own affiliation and concern, rather than, say, asking for his son to grow healthy or get liberated; at the same time he used terms that any local sadhu would have understood. It would have sounded a little odd to ask for such a specific blessing, such as that SP become a priya-narma sakha.

But even if Gour Mohan just meant what he said, that still remains his feeling and hope, not Prabhupada's.

So, I guess the case of family descent is a half piece of evidence for us, because, while it backs us up when we want to put forward the idea of SP in sakhya-rati, we see that it doesn't apply in his father's case.

Still, I think that all those who quote what SP says about his father, should also quote what he wrote about Uddharana Datta Thakura.

One thing that most seem to not take into account is that SP was not only an exalted Vaishnava with his own bhajan life, but he also had the service of being an acarya. How could he promulgate the CB over the Cc, considering how much more important the latter is in terms of siddhanta? SP has come to the West to spread the cult of Sri Caitanya and the sankirtana movement, not to recruit for his camp, whether it is the gopis' or the gopas'.

As far as making Sridhama Mayapur his place of worship, he also said that Vrndavana is his home. In my personal experience (which is insignificant at my present stage, but conspicuous enough to give me confirmation that some feelings can exist), when my mind goes to Srimati Radharani, I think of the most revered and sacred reality, but all my feelings are for Krsna and Balarama. In other words: Radha is God, but Krsna and Balarama are life and home. I don't know what that means, but I know someone can feel like that.

The last point that caught my attention for its absence is that the so-called opposition exhort us to be cautious in our analysis only when someone brings up the idea that SP may not be a gopi, but somehow everybody got comfortable with the idea that he may be, without looking at the facts. The main message and goal of our publication is: "Don't everybody think SP is necessarily a sakhi! Look at the evidence", but somehow they seem to think that we have an agenda.

Swami - April 30, 2009 1:31 pm

but he doesn't see that the point can be objectively verified with the evidence given in the book. What can be said about that.

Yes, but that is a given. In reality one cannot even objectively prove to everyone's satisfaction that anything exists. Therefore he brings up the argument of "beyond a reasonable doubt" (which I gave him in earlier correspondence while making this point to him).

He thinks his doubt is reasonable, but my reading of his doubts does not find them so. He has also written his review in a way so as to discourage further discussion, but it is this further discussion that will determine the reasonablness of his doubt. I found some of his arguments quite unreasonable and none that could not be reasonably countered. But it is nice that he has written his reaction to the booklet out, as opposed to those who just spout out some quote that they somehow think defeats the whole booklet.

Atmananda Dasa - April 30, 2009 1:45 pm

For me Sridhar Swami's opinion carries more weight than those of Narayana Maharaja and Gaura Govinda Swami. Sridhar Maharaja, being the intimate friend of Srila Prabhupada, his peer. Anyway, I pay pranams to all. And who is to say that our Swami and our Babru prabhu are not entitled to their own feelings about the suject?

Others may have their own feelings and perceptions of Srila Prabhupada, and I respect them, but my heart is here in this good sanga.

Atmananda Dasa - April 30, 2009 2:24 pm

I think that it is clear from the responses to O My Friend that some will appreciate and find the paper harmonious with their own heart and others will not. But will we be doing anyone good or ourselves good by trying to convince people of our opinion who hold another opinion in connection with their beloved gurudevas? Is that krsnanusilanam? Beyond that, does such behavior reveal the possibility that our sentiment is not even genuine, that it is being used to dominate others?

Gopala Dasa - April 30, 2009 2:35 pm

It is unfortunate that the review so readily dismisses evidence culled from the early years. The fact that relatively inexperienced devotees would get a flash or quick glimpse of their guru’s inner life (and recognize it as something extraordinary) speaks to the intensity of the acharya’s bhava rather than to the naivete of his earnest students. That Prabhupada was merely humoring his disciples’ misperceptions is not so satisfying. Prabhupada is not known for doing so, and Babhru makes this clear.

Admittedly the evidence from ISKCON’s early years could be regarded as “small” – a moment of silence, a quick utterance or reaction by Prabhupada, or a feeling in the room (such as, “at that second, nobody was thinking of you and the Wild West”). To those who were present, however, I doubt these were small, “playful,” or “simple” things at all. Moreover, even if simple, the fact that these impressions were confirmed by B.R Sridhara Maharaja and Puri Maharaja lends to them considerable gravity. So again, these evidences can’t be easily dismissed.

To me such evidence is far more charming (and hence, convincing) than the more dry formulation “x” guru is in madhurya rasa, ergo “x’s” disciple “y” is also in madhurya.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - April 30, 2009 2:53 pm

Yes, but that is a given. In reality one cannot even objectively prove to everyone's satisfaction that anything exists. Therefore he brings up the argument of "beyond a reasonable doubt" (which I gave him in earlier correspondence while making this point to him).

He thinks his doubt is reasonable, but my reading of his doubts does not find them so. He has also written his review in a way so as to discourage further discussion, but it is this further discussion that will determine the reasonablness of his doubt. I found some of his arguments quite unreasonable and none that could not be reasonably countered. But it is nice that he has written his reaction to the booklet out, as opposed to those who just spout out some quote that they somehow think defeats the whole booklet.

I think more than anything, it is the strong influence of NM on SS and DDS which makes them reluctant to accept anything else.

Prema-bhakti - April 30, 2009 3:54 pm

For me Sridhar Swami's opinion carries more weight than those of Narayana Maharaja and Gaura Govinda Swami. Sridhar Maharaja, being the intimate friend of Srila Prabhupada, his peer. Anyway, I pay pranams to all. And who is to say that our Swami and our Babru prabhu are not entitled to their own feelings about the suject?
Others may have their own feelings and perceptions of Srila Prabhupada, and I respect them, but my heart is here in this good sanga.

I agree. It really seems hard to validate that NM, Bhakti-svarupa Damodara Swami, or Gaura Govinda Swami carry the same weight in either spiritual authority or personal relationship with SP as Srila Sridhara Maharaja or Puri Maharaja for that matter.

Prema-bhakti - April 30, 2009 3:56 pm

Admittedly the evidence from ISKCON’s early years could be regarded as “small” – a moment of silence, a quick utterance or reaction by Prabhupada, or a feeling in the room (such as, “at that second, nobody was thinking of you and the Wild West”). To those who were present, however, I doubt these were small, “playful,” or “simple” things at all. Moreover, even if simple, the fact that these impressions were confirmed by B.R Sridhara Maharaja and Puri Maharaja lends to them considerable gravity. So again, these evidences can’t be easily dismissed.

To me such evidence is far more charming (and hence, convincing) than the more dry formulation “x” guru is in madhurya rasa, ergo “x’s” disciple “y” is also in madhurya.

Very nice comment Gopal. Yes, such evidence is certainly more charming and convincing.

Prema-bhakti - April 30, 2009 4:03 pm

I think more than anything, it is the strong influence of NM on SS and DDS which makes them reluctant to accept anything else.

Yes, I agree. Unfortunately, NM was rejected as their siksa guru and so to me asserting his opinion as equal or even weightier than someone like SSM whom Srila Prabhupada was so close to and lived with as well as whom SP personally recommended to go to for guidance seems somewhat disingenuous. That said everyone is entitled to their opinion though it would be more genuine if everyone could be more open about their inspiration and affiliation.

Although Jadurani's reply was fanatical at least it is consistent with the fact that she openly stands by her siksa guru. Her faith lies in NM's stated personal revelation.

Prema-bhakti - April 30, 2009 4:25 pm

I also question the fact that NM is not causing concern for making his opinions about SP's inner bhava public. He has been fueling this discussion for ten years without any concern by those who have now publically express concern over Babhru's discussion of the possibility of SP being in another mood. This fact seems to defeat that argument or at least to prove it subjective and bias in nature.

If Gaura Govinda Maharaja made his comments public, I have never heard any concern expressed over that. As far as Bhakti-svarupa Damodara Maharaja being absorbed in gopi-bhava and had been a faithful servant of SP. What is the problem? It does not prove that SP is in madhurya-rasa. It simply shows that BSDM was a sincere soul and by his dedicated service was blessed.

Syamasundara - April 30, 2009 5:02 pm

What do you understand from this:

"I wonder whether Srila Prabhupada would have been equally tolerant if his disciples had begun to see him as a gopi, as the madhurya conception has been historically misunderstood and exploited when discussed prematurely. Sakhya-rasa is obviously a more innocuous topic for conditioned souls. "

What's the danger in thinking he's a gopi? Isn't it what they think now anyway?

Gaura-Vijaya Das - April 30, 2009 6:43 pm

BSDM has not even commented that SP was in madhurya rasa. DDS's point here is that BSDM has not got the inclination for madhurya rasa from a guru like NM outside of ISKCON. It has come through his own devotion to SP, therefore he feels that SP should be in madhurya rasa. I don't know whether this is good evidence. Can't a disciple be in madhurya rasa if the guru is in sakhya rasa without accepting any guru formally who is in madhurya rasa?

Gaura-Vijaya Das - April 30, 2009 7:18 pm

I think that it is clear from the responses to O My Friend that some will appreciate and find the paper harmonious with their own heart and others will not. But will we be doing anyone good or ourselves good by trying to convince people of our opinion who hold another opinion in connection with their beloved gurudevas? Is that krsnanusilanam? Beyond that, does such behavior reveal the possibility that our sentiment is not even genuine, that it is being used to dominate others?

Yes this is a good point that I have considered also. Certainly it is easy to see that empirical evidence is more in favor of SP being in sakhya rasa but empirical evidence will never move people who have bought an alternate idea. Even if empirical evidence concludes that the universe is empty and there is hardly any life all across the universe and there is more evidence for evolution than creation described in the vedas, most devotees don't believe it . Devotees go by faith in their guru and their own bhava and emotion rather than any empirical evidence. Any hypotheses(like SP being in madhurya rasa) can be saved by modifying some element of the evidence to protect your hypotheses. It will be inconclusive according to me unless empirical evidence is taken as final authority. And this issue it not an issue of tattva; it is more an issue of bhava.

For example Ramananda Raya identity is different for BVT and VCT if I am correct and both are exalted acaryas. Then who is correct will be hard to judge.

For me it is not such a big issue as I know my GM's affiliation very clearly and if in future I show affinity for madhurya rasa then also it won't change his affinity. For instance I am very concerned about my affinity for sakhya coming from the fact that I am in male body right now and maybe I will just be projecting my material sense of self into a spiritual identity. Similarly other devotees' affinity for madhurya rasa may be coming from the sole reason that it is highest rasa.

Babhru Das - April 30, 2009 10:01 pm

I think that it is clear from the responses to O My Friend that some will appreciate and find the paper harmonious with their own heart and others will not. But will we be doing anyone good or ourselves good by trying to convince people of our opinion who hold another opinion in connection with their beloved gurudevas? Is that krsnanusilanam? Beyond that, does such behavior reveal the possibility that our sentiment is not even genuine, that it is being used to dominate others?

I'm not clear about what you mean here. In the first sentence, do you mean harmonious with their heart in the sense of inner aspiration, or in the sense of their perception of Srila Prabhupada's inner aspiration. If you mean the first, many who have written that they have long (or always) seen Srila Prabhupada as a cowboy didn't even address their own affinity. (Bhakta das comes most readily to mind.) If you mean the second, those who have objected most strongly to our argument 1) have misread it as an attempt to prove that Srila Prabhupada is in sakhya, rather than to show that the preponderance of external evidence seems to indicate such (as we see in DDS's 16th paragraph); and 2) have expressed their own affinity for madhurya rasa. That makes it appear that they prefer not to be convinced, even of my less aggressive thesis.

As for the rest of your note, I'm not clear whom you refer to by "we" and "our." Do you mean us, as in Swami, me, and the rest of our group? If so, we have made our case. Any replies to other folks' responses are not so much to convince them as to point out problems in those responses, things they seem to miss, or to misread. I don't see any evidence that either Swami or I use this essay to express our own inner sentiment (although many seem to infer that from our delight in the evidence for Srila Prabhupada's) or insist that others share that sentiment. If you mean "we" in a more general sense, which includes our detractors, that would be for each to explore her- or himself, I suppose.

Babhru Das - May 1, 2009 12:29 am

I'll probably address more issues related to DDS' review later, but I want to mention one thing now. There's clear evidence of NM's influence in hid and SRS's responses. One issue in DDS's is his mention of the gopi-bhava mantra, which NM addresses in a chapter of his booklet, Gauravani Pracarine. (Actually, that booklet was compiled by Jadurani and Bhudara at NM's instruction, as far as I know.) There appear to be two versions of the mantra given to our sannyasis and babajis, one appealing for the shelter of gopi-bhava, and one appealing for the shelter of gopijana-bhava. From what I've heard from an authoritative source, the two may be seen as synonymous, or the latter may be more general, which would accommodate those in sakhya-bhava. Srila Prabhupada's comments on the word gopijana often address the gopis, sometimes the younger and older gopis (specfically Yashodamayi), but often address all the Vrajavasis. I know that Srila Prabhupada gave both versions to his sannyasa disciples. So I find this particular argument less than persuasive.

Atmananda Dasa - May 1, 2009 3:54 am

I'm not clear about what you mean here. In the first sentence, do you mean harmonious with their heart in the sense of inner aspiration, or in the sense of their perception of Srila Prabhupada's inner aspiration. If you mean the first, many who have written that they have long (or always) seen Srila Prabhupada as a cowboy didn't even address their own affinity. (Bhakta das comes most readily to mind.) If you mean the second, those who have objected most strongly to our argument 1) have misread it as an attempt to prove that Srila Prabhupada is in sakhya, rather than to show that the preponderance of external evidence seems to indicate such (as we see in DDS's 16th paragraph); and 2) have expressed their own affinity for madhurya rasa. That makes it appear that they prefer not to be convinced, even of my less aggressive thesis.

I was thinking more about the later. I see your point.

As for the rest of your note, I'm not clear whom you refer to by "we" and "our." Do you mean us, as in Swami, me, and the rest of our group? If so, we have made our case. Any replies to other folks' responses are not so much to convince them as to point out problems in those responses, things they seem to miss, or to misread. I don't see any evidence that either Swami or I use this essay to express our own inner sentiment (although many seem to infer that from our delight in the evidence for Srila Prabhupada's) or insist that others share that sentiment. If you mean "we" in a more general sense, which includes our detractors, that would be for each to explore her- or himself, I suppose.

I was addressing the later, as in we in a more general sense.

Just to be honest. I feel a little uncomfortable because I owe a lot to Dhanurdar Swami. He brought me through difficult times along the path and gave me a lot of good sanga when I really needed it. He has been a great friend to me and gave me strong encouragement to try to take shelter of Swami. I also have the same feeling for Swami and his disciples, so it is a little difficult for me that there is disagreement, even though the dealings have been respectful so far. Maybe it is better that I just don't read or participate in this discussion.

Babhru Das - May 1, 2009 11:24 am

Atmananda prabhu, I hope you won't feel uncomfortable in this discussion. Please note that I edited the last sentence out of my previous post. It was neither necessary nor useful. You may note that I edited the last sentence out of my last post. Many of us here have long relationships with Dhanurdhara Maharaja, and we all respect him deeply, as far as I know. He and I are corresponding privately, and, believe me, there's no rancor or discomfort in our emails.

Prema-bhakti - May 1, 2009 2:52 pm

Atmananda prabhu, I hope you won't feel uncomfortable in this discussion. Please note that I edited the last sentence out of my previous post. It was neither necessary nor useful. You may note that I edited the last sentence out of my last post. Many of us here have long relationships with Dhanurdhara Maharaja, and we all respect him deeply, as far as I know. He and I are corresponding privately, and, believe me, there's no rancor or discomfort in our emails.

Thank you for writing this Babhru.

Babhru Das - May 1, 2009 3:20 pm

I missed a sentence in that last post, which in turn pointed out my deletion of another sentence from my previous post.

Neither Dhanurdhara nor I see this as a definitive way of judging other devotees. Our friendship goes back to our service in gurukulas and has weathered the blowback he has endured due to his service. This is an interesting thing to discuss, and, because we're both writers, we're actually discussing writing. It's fun, and it will bring us closer.

Atmananda Dasa - May 1, 2009 3:37 pm

Atmananda prabhu, I hope you won't feel uncomfortable in this discussion. Please note that I edited the last sentence out of my previous post. It was neither necessary nor useful. You may note that I edited the last sentence out of my last post. Many of us here have long relationships with Dhanurdhara Maharaja, and we all respect him deeply, as far as I know. He and I are corresponding privately, and, believe me, there's no rancor or discomfort in our emails.

OK Well thank you for clarifying that.

Atmananda Dasa - May 1, 2009 3:38 pm

Neither Dhanurdhara nor I see this as a definitive way of judging other devotees.

Can you explain this further.

Atmananda Dasa - May 1, 2009 4:19 pm

Yes, I agree. Unfortunately, NM was rejected as their siksa guru and so to me asserting his opinion as equal or even weightier than someone like SSM whom Srila Prabhupada was so close to and lived with as well as whom SP personally recommended to go to for guidance seems somewhat disingenuous. That said everyone is entitled to their opinion though it would be more genuine if everyone could be more open about their inspiration and affiliation.

Although Jadurani's reply was fanatical at least it is consistent with the fact that she openly stands by her siksa guru. Her faith lies in NM's stated personal revelation.

I don't think its fair to call Dhanurdar Swami disingenuous. This is a private discussion, which he is not included in. If you are to make this accusation in a private discussion that he is not privy to and where he has no opportunity to respond, then you are not being fair to him. Regardless of how you may feel about him, he does happen to be a very gentle hearted devotee and I feel that he deserves more respect than this.

Babhru Das - May 1, 2009 4:42 pm

Can you explain this further.

Sure, it's no big deal. This is not the one issue, or even a main issue, we would use to decide who we want to associate with.

Prema-bhakti - May 1, 2009 5:20 pm

I don't think its fair to call Dhanurdar Swami disingenuous. This is a private discussion, which he is not included in. If you are to make this accusation in a private discussion that he is not privy to and where he has no opportunity to respond, then you are not being fair to him. Regardless of how you may feel about him, he does happen to be a very gentle hearted devotee and I feel that he deserves more respect than this.

I am sorry if I caused you distress Atmananda. I do believe that DDS is a member of TV but I can understand that he may not want to come on and address his paper in public.

I have a long standing relationship with Maharaja and I do respect him and actually adore him as a vaisnava and he is my senior in all respects. I do feel though that we can look at his writing and anyone's for that matter especially when it is directly addressing our sanga and discuss it without automatically being offensive.

That said, I do apologize if anyone feels my comment is unfair.I also apologize to Maharaja if he feels the same way. I meant to address the fact that many of NM's former siksa disciples are still very much influenced by him and use his teachings without giving credit to him and are not forthright in their affiliation or inspiration. To me it lends a somewhat disingenuous tone to the discussion. That's all. Just my opinion on that aspect of his paper.

Atmananda Dasa - May 1, 2009 6:38 pm

I am sorry if I caused you distress Atmananda. I do believe that DDS is a member of TV but I can understand that he may not want to come on and address his paper in public.

I have a long standing relationship with Maharaja and I do respect him and actually adore him as a vaisnava and he is my senior in all respects. I do feel though that we can look at his writing and anyone's for that matter especially when it is directly addressing our sanga and discuss it without automatically being offensive.

That said, I do apologize if anyone feels my comment is unfair.I also apologize to Maharaja if he feels the same way. I meant to address the fact that many of NM's former siksa disciples are still very much influenced by him and use his teachings without giving credit to him and are not forthright in their affiliation or inspiration. To me it lends a somewhat disingenuous tone to the discussion. That's all. Just my opinion on that aspect of his paper.

I'm sorry I didn't know that Dhanurdar Swami was a TV member.

Can we really compare Dhanurdar Swami to Srivarama Swami. I think that there are some serious differences.

I see your point, but why don't you just ask Dhanurdar Swami and lets hear what he has to say.

Babhru Das - May 1, 2009 8:47 pm

I don't see any harm in our discussing these issues here. Maharaja's relationship with Naryana Maharaja is no secret, and, because he's no longer constrained by ISKCON policies and politics, it may be that he is more willing to acknowledge what he has gained from that relationship than those still under the control (to the extent it exists) of ISKCON's GBC.

As Swami points out, although Maharaja says he intends not to generate public discussion of the issue, he did post his review on his blog, which is hardly private. It has been pointed out to me by others, who have asked what I thought. Maharaja has also indicated his willingness to hear what I think of his review. I guess he wanted to sound off but not have to focus much attention on it beyond that.

Since many of us here have different kinds of relationships with Dhanurdhara Maharaja, I agree with Swami that it's healthy to discuss his review here. I can't imagine that such discussion would not be respectful. As he said in his email to me, he and I may have minor differences on a very subtle, deep aspect of Krishna consciousness, but our common "frames of reference," as he put it provide the overarching substance of our relationship.

Prema-bhakti - May 1, 2009 10:34 pm

Right Guru Maharaja, TV is a private forum. I meant he wants to discuss in private with Babhru, less private would be amongst all of us on TV, and truly public is his blog.

I don't think you can post comments on his blog in reply to the review though. Not that it would prevent further public discussion.

Atmananda Dasa - May 2, 2009 3:04 am

Certainly its fine to discuss Maharaja's review here. I just saw Prema-bhakti's comment, specifically the word disingenuous as a criticism of Maharaja's character, rather than specifically addressing the review.

Maharaja did in fact acknowledge Narayana Maharaja in the review and cite some reasons why he feels his opinion is valuable. So, even if Prema-bhakti's criticism was meant to be addressed spefically to the review, I think that it is clear that Maharaja was in fact candid about how he values Narayana Maharaja's opinion.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - May 2, 2009 2:41 pm

I think there is truth to your statement but I don't find that DDS has completely acknowledged that most of the evidence he has cited including sanyasa mantra is coming from NM. He has still not come in open about his affiliation with NM as he does not want to offend people in ISKCON. But that is not out of disingenuity but more out of deference to his godbrothers.

The fact the evidence is very strong can be seen by the fact that even SRS had to bow down to the evidence initially and almost admit that SP is in sakhya.

I think his argument against tying SP's aggressive style to his rasa is good. BSST also had a aggressive style though he was in madhurya rasa.

And his argument against using family lineage is also good.

But his argument against prabhupada own words is not convincing. He just says that sakhya is innocuous compared to madhurya so SP did not bother to correct his disciples. That for me is not very strong refutation.

And the last evidence is BSDM's realizations when he was leaving his body. I have a question, can't a disciple be in madhurya rasa if the guru is in sakhya rasa without accepting any guru formally who is in madhurya rasa?

Swami - May 2, 2009 3:07 pm

I have the question can't a disciple be in madhurya rasa if the guru is in sakhya rasa without accepting any guru formally who is in madhurya rasa?

Yes, Nama received from guruparampara is cintamani.

Atmananda Dasa - May 2, 2009 3:27 pm

He has still not come in open about his affiliation with NM as he does not want to offend people in ISKCON. But that is not out of disingenuity but more out of deference to his godbrothers.

This is not stated in the review. I think its better we let Dhanurdar Swami speak for himself than entertain speculations about this point.

Here is what he does say about Narayana Maharaja in the review:

Of course, there are other Vaisnavas, such as Srila Narayana Maharaja, who think otherwise. Because of the unfortunate and sometimes bitter conflict between Srila Narayana Maharaja's group and ISKCON and perhaps even other Gaudiya camps, his opinion often invokes strong or even polarizing reactions. The many who revere him accept as authoritative his statement that Srila Prabhupada followed the inner mood of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta. Those embroiled in the conflict, or those who hold him responsible for at least part of it, tend to judge his opinion otherwise. I think that his full life of service, deep study, and intense practice should be respected.

So appealing to recognized Vaisnavas alone does not settle the issue. Their opinions often differ, and one's acceptance of a particular conclusion in this matter will naturally tend to lie simply with the Vaisnava in whom one has reposed one's allegiance and faith.

And perhaps this is why one should be cautious about making discussions like this public: they deal too closely with the sentiments of sincere devotees who have performed years of dedicated service and exemplary practice and who represent all sides of the issue. These devotees have apparently been inspired to see Srila Prabhupada in various ways. That their inspiration is not wrong Babhru Prabhu himself shows by citing the Jaiva Dharma. Worse than dealing publicly with private sentiments, such discussions easily become grounds for further disagreements among both individuals and groups, especially as followers will or are inclined to vigorously support the viewpoints of their teachers.

Prema-bhakti - May 2, 2009 3:43 pm

I think there is truth to your statement but I don't find that DDS has completely acknowledged that most of the evidence he has cited including sanyasa mantra is coming from NM. He has still not come in open about his affiliation with NM as he does not want to offend people in ISKCON. But that is not out of disingenuity but more out of deference to his godbrothers.
The fact the evidence is very strong can be seen by the fact that even SRS had to bow down to the evidence initially and almost admit that SP is in sakhya.

I think his argument against tying SP's aggressive style to his rasa is good. BSST also had a aggressive style though he was in madhurya rasa.

And his argument against using family lineage is also good.

But his argument against prabhupada own words is not convincing. He just says that sakhya is innocuous compared to madhurya so SP did not bother to correct his disciples. That for me is not very strong refutation.

And the last evidence is BSDM's realizations when he was leaving his body. I have a question, can't a disciple be in madhurya rasa if the guru is in sakhya rasa without accepting any guru formally who is in madhurya rasa?

I appreciate your comments GV and I agree as you say that DDS has not completely acknowledged where the majority of his evidence is coming from. However, in regards to his motives one cannot really say for sure.

Whatever his motives are,"disingenous" was a poor choice of words to describe them.

Swami - May 2, 2009 3:57 pm

This is not stated in the review. I think its better we let Dhanurdar Swami speak for himself than entertain speculations about this point.

Here is what he does say about Narayana Maharaja in the review:

Of course, there are other Vaisnavas, such as Srila Narayana Maharaja, who think otherwise. Because of the unfortunate and sometimes bitter conflict between Srila Narayana Maharaja's group and ISKCON and perhaps even other Gaudiya camps, his opinion often invokes strong or even polarizing reactions. The many who revere him accept as authoritative his statement that Srila Prabhupada followed the inner mood of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta. Those embroiled in the conflict, or those who hold him responsible for at least part of it, tend to judge his opinion otherwise. I think that his full life of service, deep study, and intense practice should be respected.

So appealing to recognized Vaisnavas alone does not settle the issue. Their opinions often differ, and one's acceptance of a particular conclusion in this matter will naturally tend to lie simply with the Vaisnava in whom one has reposed one's allegiance and faith.

And perhaps this is why one should be cautious about making discussions like this public: they deal too closely with the sentiments of sincere devotees who have performed years of dedicated service and exemplary practice and who represent all sides of the issue. These devotees have apparently been inspired to see Srila Prabhupada in various ways. That their inspiration is not wrong Babhru Prabhu himself shows by citing the Jaiva Dharma. Worse than dealing publicly with private sentiments, such discussions easily become grounds for further disagreements among both individuals and groups, especially as followers will or are inclined to vigorously support the viewpoints of their teachers.

The booklet is hardly the first public discussion/position paper on this subject to be put on the internet. In many respects it is a response to what has already been circulated. Why has DS or no one else objected to the earlier articles that attempt to make the stronget case possible for Prabhupada being in manjari bhava? I do not find the argument that this subject should not be discussed publicly very convincing.

Syama Gopala Dasa - May 2, 2009 4:12 pm

Just to make sure, I raised DDS's review here because I'm interested to hear how his arguments should be regarded. I didn't want to incite ad hominem arguments. (Which is not happening on TV imho right now)

In the introduction, Babhru mentions that due to the different sentiments of disciples, one may see the rasa of one's Guru in different light. Though, one's Guru in reality only has one eternal rasa. In that regard, how does one objectively come to the eternal rasa? Couldn't it be said that whatever way a disciple sees his Guru is always tainted by his or her sentiment?

Gaura-Vijaya Das - May 2, 2009 4:28 pm

I appreciate your comments GV and I agree as you say that DDS has not completely acknowledged where the majority of his evidence is coming from. However, in regards to his motives one cannot really say for sure.

Whatever his motives are,"disingenous" was a poor choice of words to describe them.

Yes I apologize to atmananda and others as I cannot speak about DDS's motivations.

When NM or Gaur-Govinda Maharaja publicly stated that SP is in madhurya rasa, nobody opposed that view at all. Now the fact that sakhya is "lower" than madhurya rasa is making everybody hit back. Babhru and GM have restored the dignity of sakhya rasa if not anything else. It is not embarrassing to know that your guru is in sakhya rasa. That is something the booklet has done.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - May 2, 2009 4:31 pm

In the introduction, Babhru mentions that due to the different sentiments of disciples, one may see the rasa of one's Guru in different light. Though, one's Guru in reality only has one eternal rasa. In that regard, how does one objectively come to the eternal rasa? Couldn't it be said that whatever way a disciple sees his Guru is always tainted by his or her sentiment?

That is a question which I had from time immemorial! lol! Even Ramananda Raya is seen differently by two acaryas.

For me, the booklet served the purpose of making a strong case for sakhya and how it is not something to be ashamed of.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - May 9, 2009 10:50 pm

Today somebody attacked my premise that we should accept SP on face value with regards to his rasa. He said I am duplicitous because I don't accept SP statements on fall of jiva "as it is" but I want to accept the SP statements on his rasa "as it is". Both statements were made to kanishta adhikari devotees; therefore, they can be ignored.

I realized more and more that logic is inconclusive in proving anything as one's logic is created through one's feeling about an issue. Sometimes I do have to give up.

Babhru Das - May 9, 2009 11:09 pm

Today somebody attacked my premise that we should accept SP on face value with regards to his rasa. He said I am duplicitous because I don't accept SP statements on fall of jiva "as it is" but I want to accept the SP statements on his rasa "as it is". Both statements were made to kanishta adhikari devotees; therefore, they can be ignored.
I realized more and more that logic is inconclusive in proving anything as one's logic is created through one's feeling about an issue. Sometimes I do have to give up.

I accept Srila Prabhupada's statements on the fall of the jiva. But I accept them all, including the statement in a Bhagavatam purport: "Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha." Your correspondent and his ilk are likely to try to explain this away. Problem: It's in a Bhagavatam purport, which should probably carry more weight than a letter or a comment in a casual conversation.

Regarding his statements to his disciples, we have to acknowledge that they were made to disciples who were--and remain--very dear to him. Srila Prabhupada expressed his love and gratitude on many occasions for the care Govinda dasi and Goursundar gave after his stroke. Even in their difficulty, he persisted in doing so. The fact is that kanistha adhikari devotees may very easily judge others as being third-class devotees, if devotees at all, even though they have no qualification for such discrimination.

This is an issue we may argue as well as we can, but we should take our ultimate clue from Mahaprabhu, who cites Yudhisthira:

tarko ‘pratisthah srutayo vibhinna

nasav rsir yasya matam na bhinnam

dharmasya tattvam nihitam guhayam

mahajano yena gatah sa panthah

Dry arguments are inconclusive. A great personality whose opinion does not differ from others is not considered a great sage. Simply by studying the Vedas, which are variegated, one cannot come to the right path by which religious principles are understood. The solid truth of religious principles is hidden in the heart of an unadulterated, self-realized person. Consequently, as the sastras confirm, one should accept whatever progressive path the mahajanas advocate.

So we should take shelter in the hearts of unadulterated devotees and follow their example of unreserved, progressive surrender.

yasya deve para bhaktir

yatha deve tatha gurau

tasyaite kathita hy arthah

prakasante mahatmanah

All the truths of Vedic knowledge are automatically revealed in the hearts of those great souls whose faith in the guru is identical to their faith in the Lord.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - May 9, 2009 11:28 pm

I accept Srila Prabhupada's statements on the fall of the jiva. But I accept them all, including the statement in a Bhagavatam purport: "Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha." Your correspondent and his ilk are likely to try to explain this away. Problem: It's in a Bhagavatam purport, which should probably carry more weight than a letter or a comment in a casual conversation.

Regarding his statements to his disciples, we have to acknowledge that they were made to disciples who were--and remain--very dear to him. Srila Prabhupada expressed his love and gratitude on many occasions for the care Govinda dasi and Goursundar gave after his stroke. Even in their difficulty, he persisted in doing so. The fact is that kanistha adhikari devotees may very easily judge others as being third-class devotees, if devotees at all, even though they have no qualification for such discrimination.

This is an issue we may argue as well as we can, but we should take our ultimate clue from Mahaprabhu, who cites Yudhisthira:

tarko ‘pratisthah srutayo vibhinna

nasav rsir yasya matam na bhinnam

dharmasya tattvam nihitam guhayam

mahajano yena gatah sa panthah

Dry arguments are inconclusive. A great personality whose opinion does not differ from others is not considered a great sage. Simply by studying the Vedas, which are variegated, one cannot come to the right path by which religious principles are understood. The solid truth of religious principles is hidden in the heart of an unadulterated, self-realized person. Consequently, as the sastras confirm, one should accept whatever progressive path the mahajanas advocate.

So we should take shelter in the hearts of unadulterated devotees and follow their example of unreserved, progressive surrender.

yasya deve para bhaktir

yatha deve tatha gurau

tasyaite kathita hy arthah

prakasante mahatmanah

All the truths of Vedic knowledge are automatically revealed in the hearts of those great souls whose faith in the guru is identical to their faith in the Lord.

Thanks for your detailed analysis. Everybody follows their guru and thinks that their guru is unadulterated(NM in this case) and so accept their opinion as superior. Nothing can be done about it.

Secondly SP has condemned homosexuality in his S.B purport(brahma verse). It does not mean that we can take everything at face value. If S.B purports are stronger evidence than letters then should we accept S.B literally(5th canto).

Babhru Das - May 10, 2009 12:41 am

Thanks for your detailed analysis. Everybody follows their guru and thinks that their guru is unadulterated(NM in this case) and so accept their opinion as superior. Nothing can be done about it.

The best way to change others' hearts is to show what that means by our example. He wants to defeat you and score points for his team. The best you can do is share your faith in Mahaprabhu's teachings.

NM's followers don't attack me. They may not like our booklet, but they don't argue with me about it. If someone brings up an objection, I'm happy to discuss my take on it with them. It's easy to show that we've anticipated all the objections. There's nothing substantive in Dhanurdhara Maharaja's review, for example, that's a surprise. And old friends in NM's mission, some of whom are sannyasis, have written me about other things, but they haven't given me a hard time for writing this booklet. At least not so far. And a couple of quite learned devotees here who are associated with NM have expressed their appreciation. One, who's Bengali, confirmed Srila Sridhara Maharaja's understanding of bhai in the opening refrain of Srila Prabhupada's poem and has made the point to others that it's clear from that poem that Srila Prabhupada may not be in madhurya rasa.

And ISKCON devotees have asked me what I thought about Satyaraja's or DDS's reviews, I tell them that there's nothing there I didn't anticipate, give one or two examples and point out how we addressed it in the essay. Then I invite them to get in touch if they want to discuss it further. Sensing that I'm not interested in contentious discussion, most leave it at that. But I'll tell you this: most of the ISKCON devotees who have talked with me about the booklet like it, even those who have qualms about discussing such things publicly.

You're really smart and well educated, so it won't be hard for you to find ways to deal with these folks that don't threaten their faith, and which may broaden their understanding of GM's approach to understanding and presenting Krishna consciousness. That will contribute greatly to Gauranga's triumph.

Secondly SP has condemned homosexuality in his S.B purport(brahma verse). It does not mean that we can take everything at face value. If S.B purports are stronger evidence than letters then should we accept S.B literally(5th canto).

If you say so. It may be even better to try to understand them in a mature fashion. That was what I meant to imply before: mahajano yena gatah sa panthah. I have full confidence that those who really follow our Swami's lead will come to understand these things in a way that contributes to the growth of faith in Mahaprabhu's mission among thoughtful people. As he says, we should use our heads to develop our hearts. What's the Bhagavatam really about, after all?

Gaura-Vijaya Das - May 10, 2009 12:50 am

The best way to change others' hearts is to show what that means by our example. He wants to defeat you and score points for his team. The best you can do is share your faith in Mahaprabhu's teachings.

NM's followers don't attack me. They may not like our booklet, but they don't argue with me about it. If someone brings up an objection, I'm happy to discuss my take on it with them. It's easy to show that we've anticipated all the objections. There's nothing substantive in Dhanurdhara Maharaja's review, for example, that's a surprise. And old friends in NM's mission, some of whom are sannyasis, have written me about other things, but they haven't given me a hard time for writing this booklet. At least not so far. And a couple of quite learned devotees here who are associated with NM have expressed their appreciation. One, who's Bengali, confirmed Srila Sridhara Maharaja's understanding of bhai in the opening refrain of Srila Prabhupada's poem and has made the point to others that it's clear from that poem that Srila Prabhupada may not be in madhurya rasa.

And ISKCON devotees have asked me what I thought about Satyaraja's or DDS's reviews, I tell them that there's nothing there I didn't anticipate, give one or two examples and point out how we addressed it in the essay. Then I invite them to get in touch if they want to discuss it further. Sensing that I'm not interested in contentious discussion, most leave it at that. But I'll tell you this: most of the ISKCON devotees who have talked with me about the booklet like it, even those who have qualms about discussing such things publicly.

You're really smart and well educated, so it won't be hard for you to find ways to deal with these folks that don't threaten their faith, and which may broaden their understanding of GM's approach to understanding and presenting Krishna consciousness. That will contribute greatly to Gauranga's triumph.

If you say so. It may be even better to try to understand them in a mature fashion. That was what I meant to imply before: mahajano yena gatah sa panthah. I have full confidence that those who really follow our Swami's lead will come to understand these things in a way that contributes to the growth of faith in Mahaprabhu's mission among thoughtful people. As he says, we should use our heads to develop our hearts. What's the Bhagavatam really about, after all?

Thanks. Where can I find Satyaraja's review?

Swami - May 10, 2009 1:38 am

Some points to consider:

Prabhupada had a good reason for saying on occasion that the jiva falls from Goloka: to take the blame off of Krsna for those who might have trouble with the truth. But what on earth would be a good reason form him to say he is in another rasa than the one he is in? And why were so many devotees feeling he was in sakhya rasa. If they were just neophytes, why did some not think he is in vatsalya, or gopi bhava or Vaikuntha bhava? Why so many sensed his sakhya? Answer: Because it was coming from him.

Furthermore with regard to the fall of the jiva we have an issue of siddhanta to deal with. It is was against the siddhanta to be in sakhya rasa the last time I checked in. So there is no reason to doubt Prabhupada when he says he is a cowherd, but when he says the jiva falls from Goloka we have to harmonize this with the siddhanta and the other statements he made about the jiva not falling. Thus in one case we have a sacred duty to understand is statement in light of siddhanta and find the means to harmonize his statement with that tattva, but in the other we have no such burden whatsoever.

But more important is the fact that we take his own statement about his aspiration from his prayer to Krsna. Krsna is not a kanistha adhikari. This poem was written in a most private moment to his "companion." It is saturated with sakhya-bhava. Then he said the same thing to his kanistha adhikari disciples. How can we dismiss this?

Citta Hari Dasa - May 10, 2009 3:43 am

But what on earth would be a good reason form him to say he is in another rasa than the one he is in?

Beats me! I was thinking a bit more about the argument given by NM and his followers that SP said he was in sakhya rasa to protect the more easily misunderstood madhurya rasa, and it struck me (yet again) just how bad an argument it is. Like his predecessors, SP spoke extensively about madhurya rasa, explaining what it is and what is is not so his students would understand it and thus approach it properly. The idea then that he would try to conceal his affinity for gopi bhava by saying he was in sakhya because sakhya is somehow safer for conditioned souls is a major stretch. After all, it's basically inevitable that a conditioned soul will project the enjoying spirit onto rasa because conditioned souls don't really have much alternative. Conditioned souls are in fact attracted to the idea of rasa based on the prospect of enjoyment (eternal ananda), and only after considerable sadhana realize that ananda is actually in service. That being the case any rasa can be misunderstood, and as we see all of the acaryas went to great lengths to make sure sadhakas understand rasa of all types, and madhurya in particular. So the idea that SP used such an ill-conceived and basically useless ruse like that is untenable, and to me just diminishes the credibility of anyone who uses the argument.

Bijaya Kumara Das - May 10, 2009 8:13 am

The booklet is hardly the first public discussion/position paper on this subject to be put on the internet. In many respects it is a response to what has already been circulated. Why has DS or no one else objected to the earlier articles that attempt to make the stronget case possible for Prabhupada being in manjari bhava? I do not find the argument that this subject should not be discussed publicly very convincing.

That makes entirely good sense to me Guru Maharaja. They want their cake and want to eat it too. Trying to save face with the party at hand, mainly themselves.

In retrospec they may seem duplishious in their responses. Just to appease the audience they are currently engaging in the discussion at hand they forget what has been said in the past and who has said it.

Bijaya Kumara Das - May 10, 2009 8:25 am

Some points to consider:

Prabhupada had a good reason for saying on occasion that the jiva falls from Goloka: to take the blame off of Krsna for those who might have trouble with the truth. But what on earth would be a good reason form him to say he is in another rasa than the one he is in? And why were so many devotees feeling he was in sakhya rasa. If they were just neophytes, why did some not think he is in vatsalya, or gopi bhava or Vaikuntha bhava? Why so many sensed his sakhya? Answer: Because it was coming from him.

Furthermore with regard to the fall of the jiva we have an issue of siddhanta to deal with. It is was against the siddhanta to be in sakhya rasa the last time I checked in. So there is no reason to doubt Prabhupada when he says he is a cowherd, but when he says the jiva falls from Goloka we have to harmonize this with the siddhanta and the other statements he made about the jiva not falling. Thus in one case we have a sacred duty to understand is statement in light of siddhanta and find the means to harmonize his statement with that tattva, but in the other we have no such burden whatsoever.

But more important is the fact that we take his own statement about his aspiration from his prayer to Krsna. Krsna is not a kanistha adhikari. This poem was written in a most private moment to his "companion." It is saturated with sakhya-bhava. Then he said the same thing to his kanistha adhikari disciples. How can we dismiss this?

We cant. Guru Tattva

Bijaya Kumara Das - May 10, 2009 8:30 am

Beats me! I was thinking a bit more about the argument given by NM and his followers that SP said he was in sakhya rasa to protect the more easily misunderstood madhurya rasa, and it struck me (yet again) just how bad an argument it is. Like his predecessors, SP spoke extensively about madhurya rasa, explaining what it is and what is is not so his students would understand it and thus approach it properly. The idea then that he would try to conceal his affinity for gopi bhava by saying he was in sakhya because sakhya is somehow safer for conditioned souls is a major stretch. After all, it's basically inevitable that a conditioned soul will project the enjoying spirit onto rasa because conditioned souls don't really have much alternative. Conditioned souls are in fact attracted to the idea of rasa based on the prospect of enjoyment (eternal ananda), and only after considerable sadhana realize that ananda is actually in service. That being the case any rasa can be misunderstood, and as we see all of the acaryas went to great lengths to make sure sadhakas understand rasa of all types, and madhurya in particular. So the idea that SP used such an ill-conceived and basically useless ruse like that is untenable, and to me just diminishes the credibility of anyone who uses the argument.

here here :Applause:

Madan Gopal Das - May 10, 2009 2:22 pm

Sivarama Swami has posted DDS's review with the comment:

SRS: I include this article not to belabor the topic but to print a balanced gentlemanly reply, with an opposing perspective, to Babhru’s equally balanced and gentlemanly paper suggesting Prabhupada’s svarupa was that of a gopa.

Maybe an analysis of "oh my friend" with a compilation of various defenses and opposing arguments should be worked into Harmonist, so that it can be discussed in one place. I know that's what the comments section would be ideally, but people seem to bring up their arguments other places. I guess its impossible to manage where people want to discuss... Ah, well.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - May 10, 2009 2:24 pm

Some points to consider:

Prabhupada had a good reason for saying on occasion that the jiva falls from Goloka: to take the blame off of Krsna for those who might have trouble with the truth. But what on earth would be a good reason form him to say he is in another rasa than the one he is in? And why were so many devotees feeling he was in sakhya rasa. If they were just neophytes, why did some not think he is in vatsalya, or gopi bhava or Vaikuntha bhava? Why so many sensed his sakhya? Answer: Because it was coming from him.

Furthermore with regard to the fall of the jiva we have an issue of siddhanta to deal with. It is was against the siddhanta to be in sakhya rasa the last time I checked in. So there is no reason to doubt Prabhupada when he says he is a cowherd, but when he says the jiva falls from Goloka we have to harmonize this with the siddhanta and the other statements he made about the jiva not falling. Thus in one case we have a sacred duty to understand is statement in light of siddhanta and find the means to harmonize his statement with that tattva, but in the other we have no such burden whatsoever.

But more important is the fact that we take his own statement about his aspiration from his prayer to Krsna. Krsna is not a kanistha adhikari. This poem was written in a most private moment to his "companion." It is saturated with sakhya-bhava. Then he said the same thing to his kanistha adhikari disciples. How can we dismiss this?

Thank you GM but the people who have love and devotion for NM cannot accept anything but his view and then build their logic around their feeling for him. And the sanyasis who are supposed to be well read in ISKCON in esoteric topics like SS happen to be influenced by NM as well so it is difficult to break through. The fact that SS accepted the conclusion of the document before shows that the evidence in the document is overwhelming but feeling for NM overrides all logic.

Swami - May 10, 2009 2:51 pm

Syamarani just wrote me. She said she discussed the book with NM and that he found it interesting that we would publish it. She said he would like to know if I thought Prabhupada was a Rupanuga and gave me his address to write and answer him.

Swami - May 10, 2009 2:57 pm

Thank you GM but the people who have love and devotion for NM cannot accept anything but his view and then build their logic around their feeling for him. And the sanyasis who are supposed to be well read in ISKCON in esoteric topics like SS happen to be influenced by NM as well so it is difficult to break through. The fact that SS accepted the conclusion of the document before shows that the evidence in the document is overwhelming but feeling for NM overrides all logic.

That may be, but if they try to speak with you using logic, you should have the logic to reply. In time the superior logic will prevail. They think their arguments are strong, but if they hear stronger arguments in response, they will have to retire their weaker arguments. The counter points I have just given you above to the logic that stopped you are strong points and should be made.

Babhru Das - May 10, 2009 3:20 pm

Syamarani just wrote me. She said she discussed the book with NM and that he found it interesting that we would publish it. She said he would like to know if I thought Prabhupada was a Rupanuga and gave me his address to write and answer him.

Did she really read the book?

Swami - May 10, 2009 3:32 pm

Did she really read the book?

Yes, it is a silly question. But it seems that the book just won't go away, as some might wish. And further discussion will only strengthen its points in the minds of those interested

Babhru Das - May 10, 2009 5:21 pm

Yes, it is a silly question.

In court, the other side's objection would be "Asked and answered." I'll be interested to see how Maharaja responds.

But it seems that the book just won't go away, as some might wish. And further discussion will only strengthen its points in the minds of those interested

Well said. Thank you.

Citta Hari Dasa - May 10, 2009 5:30 pm

I'll be interested to see how Maharaja responds.

Me too!

Bijaya Kumara Das - May 12, 2009 8:28 am

Me too!

me 3

Nitaisundara Das - May 12, 2009 11:35 pm

Well, Narayana Maharaja's sanga has officially come out against O My Friend: http://cowdust.info --Note the url! GM said they are all old articles. He has already prepared a response. Should be interesting...

Nitaisundara Das - May 13, 2009 2:35 am

I was misinformed, the link in the last post is not the main site. The main one is www.gauravani.info GM said he felt our intelligence and realization was being insulted by the green text on that page.

Swami - May 13, 2009 4:17 am

Well, Narayana Maharaja's sanga has officially come out against O My Friend: http://cowdust.info --Note the url! GM said they are all old articles. He has already prepared a response. Should be interesting...

:Applause:

Audarya-lila Dasa - May 13, 2009 4:18 am

I was misinformed, the link in the last post is not the main site. The main one is www.gauravani.info GM said he felt our intelligence and realization was being insulted by the green text on that page.

I find it really disappointing that they have posted on their web page that O My Friend 'misquoted pure devotees and misrepresented them'. How ridiculous and how offensive. I expected better from them, I don't know why, but somehow I did.

Bijaya Kumara Das - May 13, 2009 6:51 am

why bother with them ? His Divine Graces' poem says it all and it comes directly from him.

I can see why Guru Maharaja is board :Applause: with it all.

The facts speak for themselves.

Gurudeva has given them enough rope to hang themselves with. If they are not careful they will take care of the problem themselves, by hanging, but Gurudeva is so kind and has given them a chance to grab the rope and be pulled up out of the well of doubt.

Syamasundara - May 13, 2009 11:00 am

GM said he felt our intelligence and realization was being insulted by the green text on that page.

That was really outrageous. I wish I hadn't started my day with it. :Applause: What a difference in style, presentation and vocabulary. They are turning such a sweet and high thing into "Gangs of New York" with their green texts and absolute certainties. How poor.

Prema-bhakti - May 13, 2009 3:15 pm

I was misinformed, the link in the last post is not the main site. The main one is www.gauravani.info GM said he felt our intelligence and realization was being insulted by the green text on that page.

Would you please post a link to the article. I can't seem to find it.

Babhru Das - May 13, 2009 3:32 pm

http://gauravani.info/

Prema-bhakti - May 13, 2009 4:09 pm

Thanks for the link Babhru.

I really have a hard time accepting the "song" argument. How simplistic. What other songs was SP supposed to use? They are standard Gaudiya songs and they can be harmonized with SP's bhava. They actually seem to be the most general ones out of the lot. At NM's matha in Vrndavana they sing much more specific appeals to tulsi-devi, etc. I was given a song book once from an ISKCON devotee.

Citta Hari Dasa - May 13, 2009 4:34 pm

Their argument that we're just foolish conditioned souls who misinterpret the words of the pure devotees (presumably Sridhara Maharaja and Puri Maharaja) has to break down sooner or later--they said what they said, and the direct reading of what they said is clear. The "Prabhupada tricked you because you're not qualified" argument is really childish. Would it not be a million times easier to just remain silent about topics the disciples lack the adhikara for? Why implant a misleading idea--what would be the benefit?

The title of Syamarani's 2000 article is telling. The idea that SP is in anything other than the "highest rasa" (since he is the "highest guru") is repugnant to them. An offensive and mundane mindset.

And Bhagavata Maharaja's story about Gaura Govinda Maharaja is blatantly speculative--he's totally reading into the situation. Further, GGM's opinion of SP's rasa is nowhere near the quality of evidence as SP's own statements about it. Why is that so hard to accept? And why is GGM's opinion given anywhere near the weight as the opinion of SSM & Puri M.? They're not even in the same league.

Atmananda Dasa - May 13, 2009 6:50 pm

Their argument that we're just foolish conditioned souls who misinterpret the words of the pure devotees (presumably Sridhara Maharaja and Puri Maharaja) has to break down sooner or later--they said what they said, and the direct reading of what they said is clear. The "Prabhupada tricked you because you're not qualified" argument is really childish. Would it not be a million times easier to just remain silent about topics the disciples lack the adhikara for? Why implant a misleading idea--what would be the benefit?

The title of Syamarani's 2000 article is telling. The idea that SP is in anything other than the "highest rasa" (since he is the "highest guru") is repugnant to them. An offensive and mundane mindset.

And Bhagavata Maharaja's story about Gaura Govinda Maharaja is blatantly speculative--he's totally reading into the situation. Further, GGM's opinion of SP's rasa is nowhere near the quality of evidence as SP's own statements about it. Why is that so hard to accept? And why is GGM's opinion given anywhere near the weight as the opinion of SSM & Puri M.? They're not even in the same league.

Its not difficult to understand why these devotees are sticking with their position. It is because their beloved gurudeva holds this position. They will not differ from him and they will try to defend that position. They may use all kinds of imperfect reasoning to try to defend that position, but I don't think we can really argue with their intention.

Anyway, their opinion is not threatening to me. Swami has good spiritual insight and good reasoning. It sits well with my heart.

Regarding Srila Gaura Govinda Maharaja, I think of it like this: I don't have a direct perception of these great souls. It is possible that they are all now in the nitya lila together. Therefore I cannot say that one is higher than the other, or ones opinion matters more than the other from the spiritual perspective. I could suggest some circumstantial evidence that leads me to feel that Srila Sridhar Maharaja and Puri Maharaja's opinion is more significant to me; especially that Srila Sridhar Maharaja spent a lot of time near Prabhupada, as his peer, sharing intimate time together.

Babhru Das - May 13, 2009 8:50 pm

Thanks for the link Babhru.

I really have a hard time accepting the "song" argument. How simplistic. What other songs was SP supposed to use? They are standard Gaudiya songs and they can be harmonized with SP's bhava. They actually seem to be the most general ones out of the lot. At NM's matha in Vrndavana they sing much more specific appeals to tulsi-devi, etc. I was given a song book once from an ISKCON devotee.

Well, we addressed the "problem" of Gurvastakam's 5th and 6th verses in some detail--or, rather, Srila Prabhupada does. As far as the Tulasi prayer, I think we've discussed this before, perhaps last summer. Srila Prabhupada just sent us the song, along with the mantra for picking leaves and the pradaksina mantra. What's odd is that NM writes that the Tulasi song is so intimate that Keshava Maharaja wrote a less "intrusive" song (this is in NM's biography of KM, "Acarya Keshari," my copy of which is, like all my other books, in a box at Audarya), but they don't like the pradaksina mantra because it sounds too karma-kandiya to them.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - May 13, 2009 8:57 pm

I am trying to be more objective in this analysis, putting my emotion for GM aside for a second. This is to see it from a neutral perspective.

I must say that the document by NM is much longer than Babhru,beautifully arranged and full of esoteric details. NM has elaborated SP's pranama mantra in detail drawing out madhurya rasa from there.

In http://www.gauravani.info/read/index.php?d...p;currentPic=90 , he explains the difference between rupanuga and raganuga which I didn't know before this. Only in manjari bhava you can be raganuga according to NM,not otherwise. All disciplic succession is rupanuga not raganuga.

He agains makes this point here.

http://www.gauravani.info/read/index.php?d...;currentPic=103

Here he misquotes Babhru saying that it is misunderstood that SP cannot give madhurya rasa because he is in sakhya rasa. Is he correct here?

http://www.gauravani.info/read/index.php?d...p;currentPic=94

This is a nice deity and deity is an argument to support NM's assertion.

http://www.gauravani.info/read/index.php?d...p;currentPic=98

Now NM shows how he gave SP samadhi and knows about the inner purport of his samadhi.

http://www.gauravani.info/read/index.php?d...;currentPic=108

SP asked NM to sing Sri Rupa Manjari Pada while leaving his bed, a good evidence in NM's favor I think.

Here he says kanistha's and madhyama cannot understand SP or guru's internal mood. Only an uttama can.

http://www.gauravani.info/read/index.php?d...;currentPic=112

Also in the 8th verse of siksastakam, NM mentions that the things described in the verse can be experienced only in Goloka Vrindavan. Is it completely true, I though only a few exceptional things will only be manifested in Goloka. But does CM experience things of Goloka Vrindavana here in his body?

Overall I must say the document design in comparable to ours and the document is dense. But it appears to be taking everything SP says about Radha Krsna as good evidence for his rasa.

But I cannot comment more as I was already expecting this to happen from NM's camp. Superior logic never wins. Emotions, numbers and money win always in this world. Anybody who shows the audacity to challenge NM view is crushed in the mood of BSST and SP(as NM's disciples state), who crushed all misconceptions. NM has infinite disciples, resources and a mastery of all esoteric texts of manjari bhava which makes him unbeatable according to me.

He densely packs all his documents with manjari bhava literature and most people in ISKCON just cannot answer him. The only way they have to counter is that he is speaking of very high topics and SP advised against speaking so extensively on them.

Anyway I bow down to NM for his knowledge on manjari bhava, but I am disappointed at his or his disciples' indirect vilification of Babhru and GM.

SSM and SPM's evidence still stays and nothing in the document challenges those assertions.

Nitaisundara Das - May 13, 2009 9:04 pm

Just so you know GV, their book is years old. It is not a response to O My Friend.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - May 13, 2009 9:04 pm

Here I am only talking about booklet released in 2006 by NM's disciple speaking about SP's pranama mantra. And that document mainly is to illustrate that SP is a rupanuga.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - May 13, 2009 9:06 pm

Just so you know GV, their book is years old. It is not a response to O My Friend.

Yes I just saw that myself 10 minutes back. Now it is cited as a response for 0 My Friend.

Babhru Das - May 13, 2009 9:41 pm

I am trying to be more objective in this analysis, putting my emotion for GM aside for a second. This is to see it from a neutral perspective.

I must say that the document by NM is much longer than Babhru,beautifully arranged and full of esoteric details. NM has elaborated SP's pranama mantra in detail drawing out madhurya rasa from there.

In http://www.gauravani.info/read/index.php?d...p;currentPic=90 , he explains the difference between rupanuga and raganuga which I didn't know before this. Only in manjari bhava you can be raganuga according to NM,not otherwise. All disciplic succession is rupanuga not raganuga.

He agains makes this point here.

http://www.gauravani.info/read/index.php?d...;currentPic=103

Actually, his claim is the reverse, that only in madhurya rasa can you be called rupanuga, and others may be raganuga.

Here he misquotes Babhru saying that it is misunderstood that SP cannot give madhurya rasa because he is in sakhya rasa. Is he correct here?
http://www.gauravani.info/read/index.php?d...p;currentPic=94

This appears to be a response to some misunderstandings in the '80s, which GM has mentioned and decried on several occasions.

This is a nice deity and deity is an argument to support NM's assertion.
http://www.gauravani.info/read/index.php?d...p;currentPic=98

Nothing persuasive here. We've long known that Srila Prabhupada gave this murti to the math.

Now NM shows how he gave SP samadhi and knows about the inner purport of his samadhi.
http://www.gauravani.info/read/index.php?d...;currentPic=108

Yes, NM has long used this as evidence that he is the real disciple of Srila Prabhupada, the real heir to his legacy and mission. I don't buy it. None of us had ever performed such a ceremony before, and NM was relatively local and well known to Srila Prabhupda.

SP asked NM to sing Sri Rupa Manjari Pada while leaving his bed, a good evidence in NM's favor I think.

This assertion is questionable. We know, though, that Srila Prabhupada asked Srila Puri Maharaja to sing him this song because of the history of Srila Srasvati Thakura's passing.

Here he says kanistha's and madhyama cannot understand SP or guru's internal mood. Only an uttama can.
http://www.gauravani.info/read/index.php?d...;currentPic=112

Which, of course, means only he can understand. Never mind that SP's actual disciples answered his call to go anywhere and everywhere to spread Mahaprabhu's gospel, and NM found many good reasons not to do so. Moreover, if you read the "Letters from America," you'll see that SP sent NM money for karatals, mridangas, etc., and kept writing him to ask when the goods would be sent.

I don't like to bring these things up. Narayana Maharaja has always been kind to me, and many of his followers are dear friends of mine. And we worked hard to keep our booklet from directly confronting Narayana Maharaja and his group. But they've seen fit to use this book from a couple of years ago to directly confront us. They took one of the few books in their library not available in electronic form and made it available online for free, using a URL taken directly from ours. Poor style, if you ask me.

Yes, the book's design is cute, and yes, it has some cool stuff in it. But it was conceived to make the case that Srila Prabhupada, and any other acharya in our line, could not ever possibly--nohow, no way--be in any bhava other than madhurya. This is a case that Jadurani and her acolytes, under NM's direction, have been aggressively making for some time. We have shown that assertion to be mistaken. And we seem to have gotten under their skin. They're just not good sports, and I don't think they would have fun with us in the forest.

Prema-bhakti - May 13, 2009 10:09 pm

Its not difficult to understand why these devotees are sticking with their position. It is because their beloved gurudeva holds this position. They will not differ from him and they will try to defend that position. They may use all kinds of imperfect reasoning to try to defend that position, but I don't think we can really argue with their intention.

I agree with you about the disciple naturally taking the position of the guru. But if you are going to challenge others as well as make a campaign to convince SP's disciples of the same, you have to have more evidence than just that. Something as substantial and as convincing as Babhru's . Where is that evidence for SP being in madhurya-rasa?

It seems to me their arguments are so far removed from the real feeling of SP, his person, his mood, his presence, his words, his mission to the point that now his disciples who felt his bhava personally are being told they are simply mistaken neophytes. Their arguments are so linear a+b must equal c. What if it doesn't? Statements like "it cannot be any other way" and narrow definitions of a rupanuga prove this point.

Prema-bhakti - May 13, 2009 10:23 pm

The argument that SP did not discuss madhurya rasa in the early days because it was too high seems to be disproved by watching the video "Happiness at 26 Second Avenue". I was always struck with how early this video was made and how the interviewer was questioning Swamiji's disciples and they started explaining madhurya rasa in their own disjointed interpretation. Kirtananda at one point steps in and corrects a newer follower and says that they want to follow in the footsteps of the gopis or something to that affect not that they want to become gopis. So SP was definitely talking about it. It seems he started talking about it and establishing the Gaudiya siddhanta as soon as he stepped in the door of Matchless Gifts. And still his disciples felt he was a cowherd. Hmmm.

Nitaisundara Das - May 13, 2009 11:09 pm

I did not read much the book, but I felt like the style was actually overdone. I also felt like it was so long because most of it seems like fluff. Not fluff like it is things that don't matter, but fluff that does not directly speak to the stated purpose of the book. O My Friend is just point after point, non-stop and always on topic. I personally think if you actually read it, the shorter length is a merit. People's attention spans, especially online, are very small.

Prema-bhakti - May 13, 2009 11:19 pm

This may not prove a thing to anybody but it spoke a lot to me.

I was fortunate to serve at the 26 Second Ave. storefront in the 90's and was in the mood of serving a holy tirtha and got absorbed in that particular era of SP's mission. It was such a wonderful time and SP was so openly dependent and steeped in separation from Vrndavana. I love listening to those early recorded lectures as they are so full of SP's heart and struggle. I remember the one famous lecture at Dr. Misra's where a woman asks SP (if I remember correctly) if he is happy in New York or something to that affect and he says that he is not actually happy there and he expresses his separation from Vrndavana and his dedication to his GM"s desire. It is so touching. SP was so open hearted, revealing his feelings to a perfect stranger.

Therefore I personally cannot accept that SP had some covert objective in regards to revealing his inner bhava to his disciples.

Babhru Das - May 13, 2009 11:29 pm

The argument that SP did not discuss madhurya rasa in the early days because it was too high seems to be disproved by watching the video "Happiness at 26 Second Avenue". I was always struck with how early this video was made and how the interviewer was questioning Swamiji's disciples and they started explaining madhurya rasa in their own disjointed interpretation. Kirtananda at one point steps in and corrects a newer follower and says that they want to follow in the footsteps of the gopis or something to that affect not that they want to become gopis. So SP was definitely talking about it. It seems he started talking about it and establishing the Gaudiya siddhanta as soon as he stepped in the door of Matchless Gifts. And still his disciples felt he was a cowherd. Hmmm.

In fact, if you listen to some of those earliest NY talks, you'll find that he talks quite readily about rasa, including the highest rasa. It seems he became more reticent about it later.

Babhru Das - May 13, 2009 11:37 pm

I did not read much the book, but I felt like the style was actually overdone. I also felt like it was so long because most of it seems like fluff. Not fluff like it is things that don't matter, but fluff that does not directly speak to the stated purpose of the book. O My Friend is just point after point, non-stop and always on topic. I personally think if you actually read it, the shorter length is a merit. People's attention spans, especially online, are very small.

There are a lot of sidebars and things like that. I don't know what the word count is, and I'm not going to to spend any time thinking about it. Length may or may not be a virtue. After all, Proust's novel is seven volumes and a million and a quarter words (I think I remember that number correctly). But, as amazing as it is, how many people will ever really read it? Those of us who have actually read the entire novel are very few.

Besides, Krishna das Kaviraja Goswami cites a Bengali proverb: mitam ca saram ca vaco hi vagmitah--real eloquence is saying what needs to be said concisely. And the real problems with Gauravani Pracarine are its paucity of substance and errors in argument. The fancy design doesn't make up for those.

Prema-bhakti - May 14, 2009 1:19 am

In fact, if you listen to some of those earliest NY talks, you'll find that he talks quite readily about rasa, including the highest rasa. It seems he became more reticent about it later.

Yes, very sweet talks indeed!

Gaura-Vijaya Das - May 14, 2009 3:31 am

Actually, his claim is the reverse, that only in madhurya rasa can you be called rupanuga, and others may be raganuga.
sorry for my mistake.

It was a slip. But is his assertion true? I mean are his definitions of these terms correct according to Gaudiya Siddhanta.

This assertion is questionable. We know, though, that Srila Prabhupada asked Srila Puri Maharaja to sing him this song because of the history of Srila Srasvati Thakura's passing.

Is this good evidence for NM's stance about SP being in madhurya rasa?

Swami - May 14, 2009 3:35 am

I do not believe that there is any evidence that Prabhupada asked NM to sing sri Rupa Manjari pada ever.

We just listened to Akincana Ksnadasa babaji singing a song glorfying Sri Radha and Madana Gopala written by Prabhodananda Sarasati, a sakhi. NM privately admitted to me that babaji Maharaja was in sakhya bhava (priyanarma sakha).

I have written to NM directly in response to hi inquiry and will publish my letter here tomorrow. Hopefully he will appreciate hearing from someone with conviction and knowledge on the subject. I my previous private talks with him on the subject of sakhya rasa I he backed away from his emphasis in the face of conviction and knowledge and even appreciated it. My sense is that the has not read our book yet.

Babhru Das - May 14, 2009 9:55 am

It was a slip. But is his assertion true? I mean are his definitions of these terms correct according to Gaudiya Siddhanta.

We addressed this in the booklet. He's defining rupanuga very narrowly, in terms of bhava, as expressed, for example, in Ujjvala-nilamani. We include those who follow the teaching of Rupa, as we see in Bhaktirasamrita-sindhu, which gives a broader definition.

This assertion is questionable. We know, though, that Srila Prabhupada asked Srila Puri Maharaja to sing him this song because of the history of Srila Srasvati Thakura's passing.
Is this good evidence for NM's stance about SP being in madhurya rasa?

I don't think so. As I understand it, the request was a gesture of friendship and respect with roots in the history of Srila Sarasvati Thakura's passing. GM has told this story. Srila Sarasvati Thakura asked Srila Sridhara Maharaja to sing him Sri Rupa-manjari Pada. Someone in the room suggested that Srila Puri Maharaja, who was famous for his sweet kirtans, to sing it, but BSST stopped him, saying something like, "I don't want the sweet singer; I want him," indicating Srila Sridhara Maharaja.

Whatever arguments NM has made will find great appeal among those with strong affection for him, and many of those inclined toward madhurya-rati. But none of them proves anything. As well as I like NM, I find none of them persuasive. And I think Swami is very likely correct in his sense that NM has not read the booklet. I don't think he's likely to, either. Rather, he will form his opinions based on what he hears from Jadurani, Brajanath, his Madhava Maharaja, and others in his sanga who have a voice, perhaps including Bhagavata Maharaja and Padmanabha Maharaja.

Swami - May 14, 2009 1:19 pm

"This assertion is questionable. We know, though, that Srila Prabhupada asked Srila Puri Maharaja to sing him this song because of the history of Srila Srasvati Thakura's passing."

"Is this good evidence for NM's stance about SP being in madhurya rasa?"

No, the Srila Prabhupada referred to in the first quote is BSST Prabhupada. No one sang this song to my gurudeva in the months before his departure that I am aware of.

Swami - May 14, 2009 1:19 pm

"This assertion is questionable. We know, though, that Srila Prabhupada asked Srila Puri Maharaja to sing him this song because of the history of Srila Srasvati Thakura's passing."

"Is this good evidence for NM's stance about SP being in madhurya rasa?"

No, the Srila Prabhupada referred to in the first quote is BSST Prabhupada. No one sang this song to my gurudeva in the months before his departure that I am aware of.

Swami - May 14, 2009 1:25 pm

In Gauravani pracarine NM is contrasting vaidhi bhakti with rupanuga in terms of what Mahaprabhu came to give, but the actual contrast is between raganuga and vaidhi bhakti, not rupanuga and vaidhi. But of course rupanuga means "to follow Rupa," which can mean to follow Rupa Goswami in his sadhaka deha and thereby be a raganuga bhakta. NM's defines it as following Rupa manjari in her siddha deha. Both are correct.

Swami - May 14, 2009 3:28 pm

Gaura-vijaya,

I accidentaly deleted your last post. I know of no instance in which Puri Maharaja sang Sri Rupa Manjari Pada to my gurudeva, but he he many have. NM may have as well, but would need some confirmation to accept this.

Atmananda Dasa - May 14, 2009 3:59 pm

The argument that SP did not discuss madhurya rasa in the early days because it was too high seems to be disproved by watching the video "Happiness at 26 Second Avenue". I was always struck with how early this video was made and how the interviewer was questioning Swamiji's disciples and they started explaining madhurya rasa in their own disjointed interpretation. Kirtananda at one point steps in and corrects a newer follower and says that they want to follow in the footsteps of the gopis or something to that affect not that they want to become gopis. So SP was definitely talking about it. It seems he started talking about it and establishing the Gaudiya siddhanta as soon as he stepped in the door of Matchless Gifts. And still his disciples felt he was a cowherd. Hmmm.

good point. If I remember correctly the devotee who was saying that we were aspiring to become gopis was asked when he had joined the swami, his reply was something like, two days ago.

Babhru Das - May 14, 2009 4:17 pm

I know of no instance in which Puri Maharaja sang Sri Rupa Manjari Pada to my gurudeva, but he he many have. NM may have as well, but would need some confirmation to accept this.

Hmmm . . . I may have to stand corrected. I thought I had heard a story of Srila Puri Maharaja visiting Srila Prabhhupada, and Prabhupada asking him to sing Sri Rupa-manjari Pada. I'd check, but my CDs are . . . well, you guessed it (where I should be). :huh:

Swami - May 14, 2009 4:39 pm

My sense is that NM sang it during the samadhi procedures. But there is no evidence to support the idea that SP requested him to do so. The only conversation between the two of them is available on the internet. There Prabhupada asks NM to make sure salt is placed around his body, etc. but there is no mention of singing any songs.

Prema-bhakti - May 14, 2009 5:05 pm

My sense is that NM sang it during the samadhi procedures. But there is no evidence to support the idea that SP requested him to do so. The only conversation between the two of them is available on the internet. There Prabhupada asks NM to make sure salt is placed around his body, etc. but there is no mention of singing any songs.

If I recall correctly from the video, NM did sing it at some point. Perhaps it was during the guru puja ceremony.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - May 14, 2009 5:50 pm

If SP specifically asked him to sing that song then it can be considered some evidence for NM's assertion.

Swami - May 14, 2009 5:59 pm

If SP specifically asked him to sing that song then it can be considered some evidence for NM's assertion.

Unfortunately there is no evidence of that and there is quite a bit of evidence that NM takes considerable liberty with the literal truth to make his points.

Nitaisundara Das - May 14, 2009 9:38 pm

good point. If I remember correctly the devotee who was saying that we were aspiring to become gopis was asked when he had joined the swami, his reply was something like, two days ago.

Yea he says he showed up like 2 days ago and ate and then took a nap, and had not left since. haha

Swami - May 15, 2009 4:11 am

"I was in the room when Narayana Maharaja came to visit Srila

Prabhupada. There was no request to sing sri rupa majari pada, neither did

NM sing it at that time."

—Sripad Kesava Bharati Maharaja

Maharaja was previously close with NM.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - May 15, 2009 1:29 pm

"I was in the room when Narayana Maharaja came to visit Srila
Prabhupada. There was no request to sing sri rupa majari pada, neither did

NM sing it at that time."

—Sripad Kesava Bharati Maharaja

Maharaja was previously close with NM.

Then it is very unfortunate that NM has to use this as evidence. Maybe like Prema said NM sang it during Guru Puja but SP had nothing to do with it. And the story of Puri Maharaja singing the song also was brought up by NM. That also could have be used as evidence for SP in madhurya rasa but puri maharaja himself said that SP is in sakhya, invalidating the evidence.

Is KBM is very close to SRS? I think he is very strong conservative ISKCON devotee. Can we rely on his evidence?

Swami - May 15, 2009 3:14 pm

Then it is very unfortunate that NM has to use this as evidence. Maybe like Prema said NM sang it during Guru Puja but SP had nothing to do with it. And the story of Puri Maharaja singing the song also was brought up by NM. That also could have be used as evidence for SP in madhurya rasa but puri maharaja himself said that SP is in sakhya, invalidating the evidence.

Is KBM is very close to SRS? I think he is very strong conservative ISKCON devotee. Can we rely on his evidence?

He is an old friend of mine. I consider his evidence in this matter reliable. Others have also confirmed that SP did not ask NM to sing anything, and as I mentioned the only conversation they had was recorded.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - May 15, 2009 3:24 pm

He is an old friend of mine. I consider his evidence in this matter reliable. Others have also confirmed that SP did not ask NM to sing anything, and as I mentioned the only conversation they had was recorded.

We were waiting for your letter to NM and his response.

Swami - May 15, 2009 3:27 pm

Here is what Jadurani writes on the subject:

"Just before Srila Prabhupada departed from this world in November 1977, Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja visited him, accompanied by Sesasayi brahmacari. At that time, Srila Prabhupada listened to Sripad Sesasayi as he sang Sri Rupa Manjari-pada."

No one I know who was there remembers this incident. But even if this is true, it contradicts what NM says in Gauravani Pracarine.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - May 15, 2009 3:29 pm

In DDS response to Babhru, he makes a point which is interesting.

For example, how could Babhru

Prabhu – or anyone – argue that interest in the core sentiment of Gauòéya Vaiñëavism

– following in the footsteps of the gopés in mädhurya-rasa – comes from outside Çréla

Prabhupäda’s line, and then strongly imply, in contrast, that only those who aspire for

sakhya-bhäva have gleaned their mood directly from Çréla Prabhupäda?I know of

substantial, dedicated Vaiñëavas who sincerely aspire to follow the internal mood of

Çré Rüpa solely as a result of their service to Çréla Prabhupäda. How can any of us

speak for everyone?

Is DDS reading too much into the statements of Babhru. Did you intend to write that?

Babhru Das - May 15, 2009 3:44 pm

Keshava Bharati Maharaja may be conservative in some respects. (For example, when I was discussing how to approach my worship of my Girirajas with Madhava Maharaja many years ago, Keshave Bharati Maharaja urged caution. However, when Madhava Maharaja explained that he thought I would appreciate such discussion because I've long been faithful in my practice, KBM immediately agreed.) However, he's also not a thoughtless party man. When, for whatever reasonse they had back then, ISKCON forced him to give up his sannyasa vesha, he complied. However, a few years ago, having not violated the rules of that ashram at all, and having never desisted in his preaching, he decided the action was mistaken and put on his sannysas vesha again. No petitioning for permission, no ceremony, just putting on his bahirvas and uttariya and grabbing his danda when he got up one morning. A few days later, a couple of officials from ISKCON's sannyasa ministry showed up at his ashram, with their fancy watches on their wrists and Halliburton briefcases in hand, to straighten him out. As I remember, they left, themselves a little straightened out.

That's one reason I easily accept his version.

Madhavendra Puri Dasa - May 15, 2009 3:55 pm

I think, the story about Puri Maharaja singing Śri Rupa Manjari Pada for Prabhupada, when he was laying on his death bed, can be found in "Our Srila Prabhupada - Friend to All". I'm not sure, bacause I don't have the book with me, but it might be in chapter with Puri Maharaja's memories.

Swami - May 15, 2009 4:49 pm

In DDS response to Babhru, he makes a point which is interesting.

For example, how could Babhru

Prabhu – or anyone – argue that interest in the core sentiment of Gauòéya Vaiñëavism

– following in the footsteps of the gopés in mädhurya-rasa – comes from outside Çréla

Prabhupäda’s line, and then strongly imply, in contrast, that only those who aspire for

sakhya-bhäva have gleaned their mood directly from Çréla Prabhupäda?I know of

substantial, dedicated Vaiñëavas who sincerely aspire to follow the internal mood of

Çré Rüpa solely as a result of their service to Çréla Prabhupäda. How can any of us

speak for everyone?

Is DDS reading too much into the statements of Babhru. Did you intend to write that?

The book does not say that interest in madhurya rasa comes only from outside of Prabhupada's mission. It says that a keen interest in the details of manjari bhava has come from outside since the time of his departure. This is merely a factual statement. You will not find the word manjari-bhava anywhere in Iskcon publications or discussions before Prabhupada departed. I myself learned the initial details of manjari-bhava from Pujyapada SM. As for those interested in sakhya-bhava, where else does it come from other than SP?

I am afraid that I would have to call Maharaja on his last two sentences. Iskcon devotees are good at losing sight of where much of their information concerning bhajana originates. There are many devotees in Iskcon aspiring for manjari-bhava in some sense, but the very idea that manjari-bhava in particualar--radha dasyam--is the highest ideal, and detailed information about it is not spelled out in Prabhupada's books in a way that his disciples were capable of drawing it out without help--madhurya rasa yes, radha dasyam no. That's history. NM was tutoring DDS and others on this subject and they in turn began to disseminate it in Iskcon, and now for over a decade NM has been heavily preaching about it everywhere. Show me one substantial devotee in Iskcon who sincerely aspires to follow the internal mood of Sri Rupa that is has not been in contact with this campaign or that of GGM or the preaching of SM, etc. either directly or indirectly.

But this does not mean that disciples of SP could not become interested in gopi-bhava and manjari-bhava in particular as a result of serving him. We have not said that in the book. We have said that they could and added that such interest can be further facilitated by a siksa guru in this bhava.

Nitaisundara Das - May 15, 2009 5:15 pm

Jaya Madhavendra! Good tip!

From Srila Prabhupada, A Friend to All:

Mulaprakriti writes:

Then Srila Prabhupada gently said that he was going soon from this world and asked Srila Puri Maharaja if he would offer him a gift. Srila Puri Maharaja replied, "Yes, of course, Iwill give anything." Srila Prabhupada said that he had very much wanted to perform parikrama of Giriraja Govardhana and Sri Vraja-mandala, but he was unable to do so. He also told Puri Maharaja that he remembered when their guru maharaja, Srila bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada, was leaving this world Srila Puri Maharaja had wanted to sing for him, but had been unable to do so. Srila Prabhupada then asked Srila Puri Maharaja, "Will you sing for me now? Would you sing 'Jaya Radhe, Jaya Krishna, Jaya Vrndavan'? In this way you can help me perform parikrama." Srila Puri Maharaja then sang very sweetly while Srila Prabhupada closed his eyes and listened. Tears were falling from both of their eyes.

GM said to point out that that song —Sri Vraja dhama Mahimamrita— is about all the rasas, not just Manjari rasa. It is interesting to note that this is from Mulaprakriti, a disciple of SP who was following NM. So now we have 3 stories from the same group. It would seem that Puri Maharaja sang this song and from there it became Narayan Maharaja's bramachari disciple sang Sri Rupa Manjari Pada, and from there it became NM himself. Fascinating!

Gaura-Vijaya Das - May 15, 2009 5:43 pm

Jaya Madhavendra! Good tip!

From Srila Prabhupada, A Friend to All:

Mulaprakriti writes:

GM said to point out that that song —Sri Vraja dhama Mahimamrita— is about all the rasas, not just Manjari rasa. It is interesting to note that this is from Mulaprakriti, a disciple of SP who was following NM. So now we have 3 stories from the same group. It would seem that Puri Maharaja sang this song and from there it became Narayan Maharaja's bramachari disciple sang Sri Rupa Manjari Pada, and from there it became NM himself. Fascinating!

So it was not Sri Rupa Manjari Pada after all. If there is lack of integrity in the document itself then nobody can challenge it.

I need to make sure I am able to glorify NM and DDS in spite of some lack of integrity on their part as Krsna recommends to overlook the fault of his devotees and glorify the faults. It is hard do that sometimes but when I see my own faults it is easy to do so.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - May 15, 2009 5:48 pm

But this does not mean that disciples of SP could not become interested in gopi-bhava and manjari-bhava in particular as a result of serving him. We have not said that in the book. We have said that they could and added that such interest can be further facilitated by a siksa guru in this bhava.

Do they require a living siksa guru to cultivate interest in manjari-bhava? Or maybe people can get that interest through reading BVT, VCT and the goswami books. For example how did GGM, Mahanidhi Swami and BSDM get the interest? Maybe from the books or through the campaign.

DDS does not refer to manjari bhava here and talks about madhurya rasa. But I think Babhru never claimed that devotees did not know of madhurya rasa from SP himself.

Swami - May 15, 2009 6:20 pm

Do they require a living siksa guru to cultivate interest in manjari-bhava? Or maybe people can get that interest through reading BVT, VCT and the goswami books. For example how did GGM, Mahanidhi Swami and BSDM get the interest? Maybe from the books or through the campaign.

DDS does not refer to manjari bhava here and talks about madhurya rasa. But I think Babhru never claimed that devotees did not know of madhurya rasa from SP itself.

They do not necessarily require a living siska guru, but GGM had one. MS has many of sorts. Not sure about BSDM. But none have ben deaf to 30 some years of preaching from outside Iskcon about manjari-bhava.

Yes, Babhru never claimed that devotees did not know of madhurya rasa from SP. That is very clear in the book.

Swami - May 15, 2009 6:24 pm

It seems rather significant that Prabhupada in spite of knowing that BSST asked to hear Sri Rupa Manjari Pada at the time of his departure asked to hear another song himself, one that includes glorification of Sri Krsna's sakhas. The obvious choice for one in manjari bhava of Sri Rupa is that of BSST.

What started out as evidence against his sakhya bhava has taken another direction. But if we would have cited this in the book they would have said that is was not stong evidence.

Swami - May 15, 2009 6:57 pm

My reply to NM:

Dear Sri B.V. Narayana Maharaja,

sri sri guru-gaurangau jayatah!

Recently Syamarani dasi wrote to me and asked me on your behalf if I think my Guru Maharaja is a Rupanuga Vaisnava. You have asked me this question in relation to our recent publication "O My Friend," authored by my godbrother Babhru dasa, in which considerable evidence is presented in support of the realization that my Gurudeva's ideal is that of a priyanarma sakha. Your question is already answered in the book itself, but per your request I will repeat it here.

There are two senses in which one can be considered a Rupanuga Vaisnava—one in light of siddhanta/tattva and one in light of bhava. Those who follow the siddhanta of Sri Rupa and tread the path of suddha-bhakti as defined by him are Rupanugas in as much as they represent the siddhanta of Rupa Goswami detailed in Bhaktirasamrta-sindhu. They are rupanuga virudddhapasiddhanta-dhvanta-harine, intolerant of any deviation from the siddhanta of Sri Rupa. Following the siddhanta of Sri Rupa, they may find their spiritual ideal in any rasa. Those who also follow Sri Rupa in terms of his own spiritual sentiment detailed in Ujjvala-nilamani are also Rupanugas in the sense of aspiring for his bhava.

So you ask if I think my Gurudeva is a Rupanuga. My answer is that he is a Rupanuga in the sense that he preached the siddhanta of Sri Rupa Goswami, including the concept that gopi-bhava is the highest reach of rasananda. However, he does not find his own personal ideal in gopi-bhava but rather sakhya bhava. Fortunately, I do not have to speculate about this because he has answered it himself. He said several times that he is in sakhya-rasa (for example, he said, "My Guru Maharaja's rasa is that of gopi, manjari, but I am in relationship with Krsna as cowherd boy"), he published a disciple’s poem in his Back to Godhead magazine in which he is described as a cowherd boy, and in the intimacy of his bhajana he wrote a poem to “his companion and friend” Sri Krsna in the sentiment of a cowherd ("When I shall be united with You again, I shall wander along with you the whole day keeping the cows, running this side and that side in the forest and falling on the ground in different shows of play. I aspire after that day."* etc.)

In this poem Srila Prabhupada prays for the sakti/empowerment/avesa to fulfill the desire of his Gurudeva for worldwide preaching, and then upon completing this seva to enter Sri Krsna’s cowherding-lila. Syamarani has suggested that this poem can be understood in light of the gopis such as Radharani having sakhya-bhava within their madhurya-bhava. Although it could be said that Sri Radha may at times desire fraternal love with Sri Krsna and that her manjaris may also taste this through their complete identification with her bhava, no manjari or devotee engaged in bhajana to attain manjari-bhava would pray fervently, as my Gurudeva has, for the day when she could spend the entire day wandering with Krsna, herding the cows, and frolicking with him in the forest. The mood expressed in this poem is simply inconsistent with the nature of a manjari, despite the fact that sakhya-bhava is contained within madhurya. Any sakhya-bhava arising in a manjari’s heart would not manifest in a desire to play directly with Krsna, rather it would manifest in a desire to facilitate Radha playing in fraternal love with Krsna because the visayalambana of the manjari is Radha and Krsna. Furthermore, aside from my own realization, your siksa gurus Pujyapada B. R. Sridhara Deva Goswami and Pujyapada B. P. Puri Goswami have both acknowledged that this poem, written in the intimacy of Prabhupada’s private bhajana, is saturated with sakhya-bhava, not manjari-bhava.

I appreciate your own steadfast conviction and enthusiasm for manjari-bhava and understand that most acaryas in the Gaudiya sampradaya have this sentiment. Furthermore, I am aware that it is your opinion that Srila Prabhupada embraces manjari-bhava; however, the opinion that Srila Prabhupada finds his ideal in manjari-bhava contradicts that which Srila Prabhupada himself told his disciples. It also contradicts the personal opinion of my siksa-guru, Srila Bhakti Raksaka Sridhara Deva Goswami, which is well documented in recorded lectures, as well as a wealth of other supporting evidence. In comparison, the opinion published in “Gauravani Pracarine” is considerably lacking in supporting evidence, in that it merely explains that manjari-bhava is the highest reach of the Gaudiya sampradaya (if not implying that it is the only possible fruit of gauravani pracarine), as if that alone proves that it is Srila Prabhupada’s ideal, despite considerable evidence to the contrary. The book also seems to imply that were he in sakhya-bhava he would not be a true follower of Mahaprabhu. However, Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami says that Caitanya Mahaprabhu came to give the four rasas of Vraja. Certainly Nityananda Rama is doing gauravani-pracarine. Indeed, he started it.

Furthermore, one may teach others that gopi-bhava is objectively the highest ideal of Gaudiya Vaisnavism while subjectively identifying with another Vraja-bhava oneself. This is what my Guru Maharaja has done, which is similar to what Srila Rupa Goswami has done in reverse. While Sri Rupa personally identified with bhavollasa-rati, he assumed a neutral position in order to write about the entirety of bhakti-rasa, both vaiddhi and raga marg, sambandhanuga and kamanuga, sambhogeccha-mayi and tad-bhaveccha-mayi, and so on, in Bhaktirasamrta-sindhu. It is not that one who identifies with one rasa cannot teach about the others. Anyone who is a Rupanuga in the sense of following the siddhanta of suddha-bhakti explained by Rupa Goswami (anyabhilasita sunyam . . .) can do gauravani pracarine in a general sense regardless of their own inner, subjective, spiritual reality. Again, this is what Srila Prabhupada has done.

Aside from the correspondence I have had with your student Syamarani, today I received information about a website your disciples published in an effort to refute the points raised in our publication "O My Friend." While I am always interested in objective philosophical discussion, unfortunately I found the articles on the site to be nothing but a repetition of the assertions that have already been addressed comprehensively in our publication, thus circumventing productive discussion. Furthermore, despite the fact that "O My Friend" has been appreciated for its considerate and balanced tone, your disciples' response begins with the condescending accusation that "O My Friend" proposes "by misquoting and misinterpreting the words of pure devotees, as well as by using as 'evidence' the words of conditioned souls who were Srila Prabhupada's young and inexperienced disciples at the time of his physical presence in this world) that his eternal service to Krsna is that of a cowherd boy. www.gauravani.info gives a true understanding of Srila Prabhupada's relationship, and thus a deeper understanding of his mission in this world."

I would be interested to know how our publication has misquoted and misinterpreted the unequivocal words of Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhara Deva Goswami. This is a very strong accusation, but nothing on your disciples' website substantiates or even addresses it. Nor, for that matter, does it address any of the points raised in "O My Friend!" So I find myself again disappointed in your disciples' inability to deal with issues of this nature without insult and in this instance without going through the publication it takes exception to and objectively dealing with the points raised therein. In contrast, "O My Friend" took the charitable position towards your disciples that Srila Prabhupada personally directed them to your good self and others in order to help facilitate their inner aspiration for manjari-bhava.

If you would like to discuss this deep topic in greater detail, I have much more to say on the matter and would be happy to do so.

In service,

Swami B.V. Tripurari

*Translation by Pujyapada B.R. Sridhara Deva Goswami

Swami - May 15, 2009 6:59 pm

NM's reply to me:

All Glories to Sri Sri Guru & Gauranga!

Swami B.V. Narayan

Founder Acharya of Bhaktivedanta Trust International [bHAKTI] and International Gaudiya Vedanta Trust

Sri Kesavji Gaudiya Math - Mathura [uP] 281001 India - Ph.: + 91 565.2502334

President of Sri Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti Trust and Vice President of Sri Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti

________________________________________

Dear Sripad B.V. Tripurari Maharaja,

Please accept my heartly dandavats pranams. All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga, all glories to Sri Sri Radha Vinode Bihariji.

I received your letter and became very happy to hear from you after a long, long time.

Regarding the contents of your message, if you have strong belief that your Gurumaharaja was in sakhya mood, I have no objection. I do not desire to enter into debate - argument and counter argument.

You should understand that I know Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja from beginning, since 1946. He is my siksa guru, also he is my bosom friend; many times we were laughing and joking together.

So, I know him and I have a strong belief that he is in gopi bhava, following the mood of Sri Rupa Manjari. You will not be able to change my conviction and I request that you will not try to do this. I am satisfied that you have a strong faith that your Gurumaharaja is in sakhya bhava. But I want to inform you that Rupanuga means that he follows Srila Rupa Gosvami and Sri Rupa Manjari.

I also know that he was familiar with this sloka:

'aradhyo bhagavan vrajesa tanayas tad dhama vrndavanam / ramya kacid upasana vraja vadhu vargena ya kalpita / srimad bhagavatam pramanam amalam prema pum-artho mahan / sri caitanya mahaprobhor matam idam tatradaro nah parah'

He has also read Sri Bhaktirasamrta Sindhu and Sri Ujjvala Nilamani; thus he was able to select the best method of worship.

Also he was familiar with:

'anarpita-carim cirat karunayavatirna kalau samarpayitum unnatojjvala rasam sva bhakti sriyam

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has come to give raganuga marg and especially within this raganuga marg the mood of Sri Rupa Manjari.

Thus I cannot admit anything else, but I appreciate your belief that he was in sakhya bhava.

Vaisnavadasanudasa,

Swami B.V. Narayan

PS. Both Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada, they have told them selves what is their siddha svarupa - Sri Kamala Manjari and Sri Nayana Manjari. Our all Rupanuga Acarayas are manjaris.

Most important thing is that at the time of diksa a bona fide Gurudeva in our parampara gives Gopal mantra and Kama gayatri. In these two mantras he gives the transcendental relationship of the disciple with Sri Krsna, which is the same as the transcendental relationship that the gopis have with Sri Krsna.

Secondly, the bona fide sannyasa guru, at the time of sannyasa initiation, according Samskara Dipika, he is giving gopibhava and the disciple admits this. This point makes it even more clear.

Still, I appreciate your belief that he was in sakhya bhava.

Swami - May 15, 2009 7:00 pm

My final reply to NM:

Swami B.V. Narayana,

Please accept my dandavat pranams. Thank you for your thoughts. I am familiar with all of the points you have raised and they have already been addressed in our publication. I also respect your desire not to discuss the issue further and I am satisfied to let devotees believe as they may as long as in doing so they do not offend others. Thank you for asking Syamarani dasi to contact me on your behalf.

Swami

Gaura-Vijaya Das - May 15, 2009 7:04 pm

My final reply to NM:

Swami B.V. Narayana,

Please accept my dandavat pranams. Thank you for your thoughts. I am familiar with all of the points you have raised and they have already been addressed in our publication. I also respect your desire not to discuss the issue further and I am satisfied to let devotees believe as they may as long as in doing so they do not offend others. Thank you for asking Syamarani dasi to contact me on your behalf.

Swami

He is not stopping his disciples from smashing our document in green letters and calling Babhru neophyte, albeit indirectly. It does not sit well with me how he does not want to discuss this issue but lets his disciples denigrate Babhru and you. He has not responded to the points regarding the inappropriate actions of his disciples. Atleast he should tell his disciples that he has no problem with your assertion that SP was in sakhya rasa.

Although overtly NM has accepted SSM as siksa guru, I don't think his remarks before show that.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - May 15, 2009 7:22 pm

Here Umapati Swami, who is another conservative devotee challenges NM's disciple through institutional consciousness and sectarianism and also indirectly criticizes GM and others for starting their own mission. http://www.umapati.net/node/22

Sometimes it is hard to understand devotees through one's intelligence. I find devotees sometimes to be the extremly sectarian though they are very very strict in sadhana. This I never can understand. Obviously they are not able to see vasudeva sarvam iti unless they are denouncing everybody else in their bhava like BVT did.

Babhru Das - May 15, 2009 9:13 pm

Apparently, Narayana Maharaja appreciates GM's conviction that Srila Prabhupada is in sakhya bhava.

One thing I noticed right off the bat was the rhetoric of the greeting. He offered "heartly dandavat pranams" instead of "heartly blessings." That is something we should not miss, and for which we need to credit him.

Of course, the tone was naturally of someone in a superior position, which he is by several measures, and we also can't miss his assertions (the usual) that he's Srila Prabhupada's buddy. And he didn't acknowledge that we have been denigrated as prone to misquote and misinterpret advanced Vaishnavas. But it may serve us well to acknowledge whatever small gestures of respect he does offer, however diplomatic the intention.

Babhru Das - May 15, 2009 9:18 pm

Here Umapati Swami, who is another conservative devotee challenges NM's disciple through institutional consciousness and sectarianism and also indirectly criticizes GM and others for starting their own mission. http://www.umapati.net/node/22

Sometimes it is hard to understand devotees through one's intelligence. I find devotees sometimes to be the extremly sectarian though they are very very strict in sadhana. This I never can understand. Obviously they are not able to see vasudeva sarvam iti unless they are denouncing everybody else in their bhava like BVT did.

Umapati Maharaja isn't really a bad-natured guy, although he can be a little cranky and superior. He seems to think it's natural to talk down to the rest of us because of his age and seniority among Srila Prabhupada's disciples. And he does have an attitude problem with those preaching outside ISKCON. But he's not particularly active outside Mayapura and his own preaching territory these days. (That post is about three years old.) And I'm not sure any of us is likely to go there any time soon.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - May 15, 2009 9:26 pm

Umapati Maharaja isn't really a bad-natured guy, although he can be a little cranky and superior. He seems to think it's natural to talk down to the rest of us because of his age and seniority among Srila Prabhupada's disciples. And he does have an attitude problem with those preaching outside ISKCON. But he's not particularly active outside Mayapura and his own preaching territory these days. (That post is about three years old.) And I'm not sure any of us is likely to go there any time soon.

Nobody is bad natured, not even Hansadutta or Trivikrama swami or even any soul. But intense sectarianism which is coming out of strict sadhana is something which is always something that is hard to digest for me.

I agree though NM has done nothing to correct his disciples and even given wrong information in the document, we have to overlook that as per Krsna's words.

Babhru Das - May 15, 2009 9:51 pm

Nobody is bad natured, not even Hansadutta or Trivikrama swami or even any soul. But intense sectarianism which is coming out of strict sadhana is something which is always something that is hard to digest for me.

We need to watch out for niyamagraha (either form) and vaishnava aparadha. It's clear that Umapati Maharaja, and very many others, think that anything they say to criticize whomever seems disloyal to ISKCON and the GBC doesn't count in the latter category. We certainly should be careful how we associate with such devotees. In Brs., Rupa cites Hari-bhakti sudhodaya as advising that just as a crystal takes on the color of whatever is nearby, people take on the characteristics of those with whom they associate. So it's important to arrange our lives to associate with devotees who are superior in realization, who have similar spiritual aspirations, and who are affectionately disposed to us.

I agree though NM has done nothing to correct his disciples and even given wrong information in the document, we have to overlook that as per Krsna's words.

We don't have to overlook anyone who directly attacks Swami, or who attacks the points we make in a disrespectful way. If the friend you were writing before persists in his or her stupidity, I think it would be okay to be more direct in your responses, as you were inclined to do before.

Syamasundara - May 15, 2009 10:37 pm

Dear Sripad B.V. Tripurari Maharaja,

Please accept my heartly dandavats pranams. All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga, all glories to Sri Sri Radha Vinode Bihariji.

I received your letter and became very happy to hear from you after a long, long time.

Regarding the contents of your message, if you have strong belief that your Gurumaharaja was in sakhya mood, I have no objection. I do not desire to enter into debate - argument and counter argument.

You should understand that I know Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Swami Maharaja from beginning, since 1946. He is my siksa guru, also he is my bosom friend; many times we were laughing and joking together.

So, I know him and I have a strong belief that he is in gopi bhava, following the mood of Sri Rupa Manjari. You will not be able to change my conviction and I request that you will not try to do this. I am satisfied that you have a strong faith that your Gurumaharaja is in sakhya bhava. But I want to inform you that Rupanuga means that he follows Srila Rupa Gosvami and Sri Rupa Manjari.

I also know that he was familiar with this sloka:

'aradhyo bhagavan vrajesa tanayas tad dhama vrndavanam / ramya kacid upasana vraja vadhu vargena ya kalpita / srimad bhagavatam pramanam amalam prema pum-artho mahan / sri caitanya mahaprobhor matam idam tatradaro nah parah'

He has also read Sri Bhaktirasamrta Sindhu and Sri Ujjvala Nilamani; thus he was able to select the best method of worship.

Also he was familiar with:

'anarpita-carim cirat karunayavatirna kalau samarpayitum unnatojjvala rasam sva bhakti sriyam

Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has come to give raganuga marg and especially within this raganuga marg the mood of Sri Rupa Manjari.

Thus I cannot admit anything else, but I appreciate your belief that he was in sakhya bhava.

Vaisnavadasanudasa,

Swami B.V. Narayan

PS. Both Srila Bhaktivinode Thakur and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Prabhupada, they have told them selves what is their siddha svarupa - Sri Kamala Manjari and Sri Nayana Manjari. Our all Rupanuga Acarayas are manjaris.

Most important thing is that at the time of diksa a bona fide Gurudeva in our parampara gives Gopal mantra and Kama gayatri. In these two mantras he gives the transcendental relationship of the disciple with Sri Krsna, which is the same as the transcendental relationship that the gopis have with Sri Krsna.

Secondly, the bona fide sannyasa guru, at the time of sannyasa initiation, according Samskara Dipika, he is giving gopibhava and the disciple admits this. This point makes it even more clear.

Still, I appreciate your belief that he was in sakhya bhava.

What a lukewarm response. It doesn't really seem to address much of the points raised either. Would a guru in (priya-narma) sakhya bhava preach that that is the highest reach? I don't think so.

Despite all that, the net dichotomy between him as a person and his representative will never end to puzzle me.

Prema-bhakti - May 15, 2009 10:54 pm

Here Umapati Swami, who is another conservative devotee challenges NM's disciple through institutional consciousness and sectarianism and also indirectly criticizes GM and others for starting their own mission. http://www.umapati.net/node/22

Sometimes it is hard to understand devotees through one's intelligence. I find devotees sometimes to be the extremly sectarian though they are very very strict in sadhana. This I never can understand. Obviously they are not able to see vasudeva sarvam iti unless they are denouncing everybody else in their bhava like BVT did.

I would not take anything Umapti Swami has to say seriously. He has recently been involved in a scandal that reflects poorly on the sannyasa asrama.

Citta Hari Dasa - May 15, 2009 11:13 pm

Aside from the fact that NM really didn't address the points, I found this interesting:

Most important thing is that at the time of diksa a bona fide Gurudeva in our parampara gives Gopal mantra and Kama gayatri. In these two mantras he gives the transcendental relationship of the disciple with Sri Krsna, which is the same as the transcendental relationship that the gopis have with Sri Krsna.

Sounds to me like he's saying the guru gives the svarupa to the disciple at the time of diksa, which of course is in opposition to Bhaktivinoda Thakura's position that the svarupa of the jiva is inherent and comes out naturally in the course of bhajana.

Audarya-lila Dasa - May 16, 2009 12:00 am

Narayana Maharaja says he doesn't wish to discuss this but at the same time in his response he is citing what he considers to be evidence in support of his conviction and he is also widely preaching that conviction and his disciples approach to representing him and his views is very distasteful, which Guru Maharaja pointed out to him, yet he completely avoided that issue.

I find his response to be very disingenuous and condescending regardless of his initial address to Guru Maharaja. The points he made are very generic and lead to the conclusion that the only rasa available to anyone in the Gaudiya sampradaya is srngara rasa. That is really a big issue and I believe a big misconception and misrepresentation of the siddhanta. Everyone in our lineage recieves the same mantras he suggests can only lead to srngara rasa.

His conviction regarding the stayi bhava of Srila Prabhupada and his immovability in that regard is one thing, but the arguments he is using to support that conviction are quite another.

Babhru Das - May 16, 2009 12:53 am

Aside from the fact that NM really didn't address the points, I found this interesting:
Sounds to me like he's saying the guru gives the svarupa to the disciple at the time of diksa, which of course is in opposition to Bhaktivinoda Thakura's position that the svarupa of the jiva is inherent and comes out naturally in the course of bhajana.

Maybe. But he may simply believe that the Gopala mantra only focuses the sadhaka on gopi bhava. That's addressed quite adequately in the booklet, which in turn cites GM's Gopala-tapani Upanishad commentary. There may or may not be a subtle difference between these two positions. If you're correct, it would seem to call attention to his alleged association outside our parivar in earlier years.

It becomes clearer and clearer to me just why I never had the conversion experience some friends expected when I associated with him. I was never attracted to being part of his group, even though I didn't have much confidence in a good deal of the propaganda ISKCON ran against him.

Swami - May 16, 2009 1:15 am

NM consistently teaches that the svarupa of the jiva is inherent. But he will argue that those with inherent gopi svarupa will come to our sampradaya. There is also a larger discussion as to exactly what BVT means by inherent, which I have addressed a number of times. I am not sure where NM stands on that.

Swami - May 16, 2009 1:17 am

Just got this from Syamarani. I am not sure about her . . .

Dandavat pranama Maharaja,

All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga.

I was so happy to see the beautiful, respectful exchanges between your holiness and Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja, so full of vaisnavata. I think I was forwarded the exchange by his secretary, Brajanath prabhu, because I was the one who invited you to write him.

I was in Canada last week, where my host had a copy of the book made from Prabhupada's manuscript of Raya Ramananda Samvad. I very very much appreciated your beautiful introduction. You are truly a brilliant writer, and expressing wonderful devotional moods.

I personally have one question. I was interested to read in your letter that Prabhupada said, "My Guru Maharaja's rasa is that of gopi, manjari, but I am in relationship with Krsna as cowherd boy". May I ask if there is a sound-file of that, which I can hear? Would the BBt archives have that?

Vaisnava sevabhilasi,

Syamarani dasi

Babhru Das - May 16, 2009 1:28 am

Just got this from Syamarani. I am not sure about her . . .

Dandavat pranama Maharaja,

All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga.

I was so happy to see the beautiful, respectful exchanges between your holiness and Srila Narayana Gosvami Maharaja, so full of vaisnavata. I think I was forwarded the exchange by his secretary, Brajanath prabhu, because I was the one who invited you to write him.

I was in Canada last week, where my host had a copy of the book made from Prabhupada's manuscript of Raya Ramananda Samvad. I very very much appreciated your beautiful introduction. You are truly a brilliant writer, and expressing wonderful devotional moods.

I personally have one question. I was interested to read in your letter that Prabhupada said, "My Guru Maharaja's rasa is that of gopi, manjari, but I am in relationship with Krsna as cowherd boy". May I ask if there is a sound-file of that, which I can hear? Would the BBt archives have that?

Odd note, that. First effusive praise, then this strange question at the end. Nope, no sound file. He made the comment to Govinda dasi in a car in 1968. Is it true only if the archives has a sound file? Then what about his imputed request that Narayana Maharaja sing Sri Rupa-manjari Pada? :huh: And she cites it from Swami's letter to NM, not the booklet?

Madan Gopal Das - May 16, 2009 4:23 am

If you're correct, it would seem to call attention to his alleged association outside our parivar in earlier years.

With all my respect, that is what came to me when I read his response to GM. I felt like several of his arguments sound very reminiscent of the preaching of babaji's, etc., who do not follow the Bhaktivinoda parivar. The arguments made about iskcon devotees getting details of rasa from outside influences seems to apply to NM in the same way; possible outside lineage influences? The vaguely suggestive siddha-pranali stuff, the "only Radha-dasyam" interpretation of everything from Rupanuga to diksa mantra's, the "everyone in our lineage is in gopi bhava" :Shocked: ... it all feels like he's trying to tell people "look, you can be in our club and not miss out on what those guys over there (other lineages) have got going on." It's like he wants to re-brand this lineage to keep up with the competition when really our parivara has everything to offer in a beautiful dynamic way.

Also interesting was how he suggested that BSST directly stated his own siddha-deha. This was discussed either here or in the book...

One thing is for sure. Reading GM's letter just makes me so happy to be where I am. I'm at home here, and I'm never leaving. :Big Grin:

Prema-bhakti - May 16, 2009 4:42 am

With all my respect, that is what came to me when I read his response to GM. I felt like several of his arguments sound very reminiscent of the preaching of babaji's, etc., who do not follow the Bhaktivinoda parivar. The arguments made about iskcon devotees getting details of rasa from outside influences seems to apply to NM in the same way; possible outside lineage influences? The vaguely suggestive siddha-pranali stuff, the "only Radha-dasyam" interpretation of everything from Rupanuga to diksa mantra's, the "everyone in our lineage is in gopi bhava"

Me too.

Bhrigu - May 16, 2009 7:50 am

With all my respect, that is what came to me when I read his response to GM. I felt like several of his arguments sound very reminiscent of the preaching of babaji's, etc., who do not follow the Bhaktivinoda parivar. The arguments made about iskcon devotees getting details of rasa from outside influences seems to apply to NM in the same way; possible outside lineage influences? The vaguely suggestive siddha-pranali stuff, the "only Radha-dasyam" interpretation of everything from Rupanuga to diksa mantra's, the "everyone in our lineage is in gopi bhava" :Big Grin: ... it all feels like he's trying to tell people "look, you can be in our club and not miss out on what those guys over there (other lineages) have got going on." It's like he wants to re-brand this lineage to keep up with the competition when really our parivara has everything to offer in a beautiful dynamic way.

I don't think this is correct, Madan Prabhu: after all, who can deny that Bhaktivinoda was in madhurya-bhava, as was BSST, and the rest of the lineage that BSST offers as the Bhagavata Parampara. If you want to find someone giving out sakhya-mantras, you won't find them there. Or if someone is giving them, they will themselves have received them outside the Bhaktivinoda parivar.

How do we deal with the sannyasa-mantra argument? I remember reading something about it, but can't remember it.

Babhru Das - May 16, 2009 8:58 am

How do we deal with the sannyasa-mantra argument? I remember reading something about it, but can't remember it.

What I found was that Srila Prabhupada gave two sannyasa mantras, one appealing for the shelter of gopi bhava, and the other for gopijana bhava. I can't say how it is he gave one mantra to some disciples and another to others. But it seemed to me from Srila Prabhupada's discussions of the word gopijana that he used it sometimes to refer to the residents of Vrindavana generally, not just the younger gopis. GM confirmed this. So it seems to me that an appeal for the shelter of gopijana bhava could make the mantra applicable to those aspiring to sakhya bhava (and vatsalya, for that matter).

Bhrigu - May 16, 2009 9:53 am

Ok, but it will be difficult to convince outsiders that gopijana can refer to residents of Vrindavana in general.

Babhru Das - May 16, 2009 10:07 am

By outsiders do you meant those with no faith in Srila Prabhupada?

Nitaisundara Das - May 16, 2009 12:47 pm

and the rest of the lineage that BSST offers as the Bhagavata Parampara.

"Nityananda Sri Advaita Sita"—— Not everyone is in madhurya rasa

Madan Gopal Das - May 16, 2009 1:06 pm

If you want to find someone giving out sakhya-mantras, you won't find them there. Or if someone is giving them, they will themselves have received them outside the Bhaktivinoda parivar.

I'm just saying that the detailed stuff, the "guided meditation" if you will, and the madhurya-specific interpretations of everything without the emphasis on revelation and personal qualification seems uncharacteristic of the spirit of the Bhaktivinoda parivara, and reminiscent of teachings I have heard of outside. That is nothing new right? I'm pretty sure I recall former Madhavananda making several allegations of NM taking on some of the views of babaji's even though he heavily criticized them. I don't want to get into criticism of NM because I am very leery of offending a senior vaisnava who is obviously enthusiastic about tasting rasa and also bringing the assembly of devotees into deeper understanding. My dandavats to him again and again. Just with my critical thinking hat on, it FEELS different than the approach I'm used to.

In no way am I denying that madhurya rasa is prominent in our lineage. It just seems to me that the Bhaktivinoda parivar doesn't just "give out" ANY mantra's or ANY rasa specific information. I don't get the sense that our teachers figure it all out for you. We are more focused on revelation for the individual and leave the field of inner development open for the sadhaka to find his/her place in.

And then when discussing that revelation, the self-disclosure of an acarya about his inner life; why be so determined to guide/direct/interpret the evidence?

Madan Gopal Das - May 16, 2009 1:15 pm

and the rest of the lineage that BSST offers as the Bhagavata Parampara.

What about his disciple Akincana Krsnadasa Babaji? Going the other way, BSST used to encourage the reading of Caitanya Bhagavat which is overflowing with Vrndavana das Thakur's own sakhya sentiments. I can't think of one instance where BSST is preaching in a madhurya exclusive (our lineage is gopi bhava and nothing else) way like NM does.

Swami - May 16, 2009 1:31 pm

I don't think this is correct, Madan Prabhu: after all, who can deny that Bhaktivinoda was in madhurya-bhava, as was BSST, and the rest of the lineage that BSST offers as the Bhagavata Parampara. If you want to find someone giving out sakhya-mantras, you won't find them there. Or if someone is giving them, they will themselves have received them outside the Bhaktivinoda parivar.

How do we deal with the sannyasa-mantra argument? I remember reading something about it, but can't remember it.

It is not clear that in the rest of the lineage given by BSST everyone is in manjari-bhava. It certainly cannot be demonstrated and Baladeva Vidyabhusana in particular is in question. Nonetheless, Madan gopla's argumeent is sound. BSST and BVT were very accommodating of other sentiments appearing in the lineage, unlike many other lineages. Ananta dasa of Radha Kund does not acknowledge any other option. But NM at least when pressed does, kind of.

As for mantras, Gopa Kumara had the gopal mantra gopijana-vallabhaya svaha. And as NM says, this point makes it even more clear. Furthermore there is gopi bhava in the priyarama-sakha's love.

Bijaya Kumara Das - May 17, 2009 3:24 am

This may not prove a thing to anybody but it spoke a lot to me.

I was fortunate to serve at the 26 Second Ave. storefront in the 90's and was in the mood of serving a holy tirtha and got absorbed in that particular era of SP's mission. It was such a wonderful time and SP was so openly dependent and steeped in separation from Vrndavana. I love listening to those early recorded lectures as they are so full of SP's heart and struggle. I remember the one famous lecture at Dr. Misra's where a woman asks SP (if I remember correctly) if he is happy in New York or something to that affect and he says that he is not actually happy there and he expresses his separation from Vrndavana and his dedication to his GM"s desire. It is so touching. SP was so open hearted, revealing his feelings to a perfect stranger.

Therefore I personally cannot accept that SP had some covert objective in regards to revealing his inner bhava to his disciples.

I would have to agree with you here Prema-bakti

Bijaya Kumara Das - May 17, 2009 3:42 am

Here is what Jadurani writes on the subject:

"Just before Srila Prabhupada departed from this world in November 1977, Srila Bhaktivedanta Narayana Gosvami Maharaja visited him, accompanied by Sesasayi brahmacari. At that time, Srila Prabhupada listened to Sripad Sesasayi as he sang Sri Rupa Manjari-pada."

No one I know who was there remembers this incident. But even if this is true, it contradicts what NM says in Gauravani Pracarine.

more rope

Bijaya Kumara Das - May 17, 2009 4:28 am

Odd note, that. First effusive praise, then this strange question at the end. Nope, no sound file. He made the comment to Govinda dasi in a car in 1968. Is it true only if the archives has a sound file? Then what about his imputed request that Narayana Maharaja sing Sri Rupa-manjari Pada? :Big Grin: And she cites it from Swami's letter to NM, not the booklet?

that probably means she never read the booklet.

Babhru Das - August 8, 2009 12:27 am

Krishna certainly has a sense of humor. Here's the verse I'm assigned to speak on tomorrow morning at ISKCON Alachua:

yaśodā-nandana hailā śacīra nandana

catur-vidha bhakta-bhāva kare āsvādana

The same Supreme Personality of Godhead who appeared as the son of mother Yaśodā has now appeared as the son of mother Śacī, relishing four kinds of devotional activities.

Swami - August 8, 2009 12:46 am

Krishna certainly has a sense of humor. Here's the verse I'm assigned to speak on tomorrow morning at ISKCON Alachua:
yaśodā-nandana hailā śacīra nandana

catur-vidha bhakta-bhāva kare āsvādana

The same Supreme Personality of Godhead who appeared as the son of mother Yaśodā has now appeared as the son of mother Śacī, relishing four kinds of devotional activities.

What an opportunity!

Babhru Das - August 8, 2009 12:51 am

:He He: heh, heh, heh :Devil:

Attendance on Saturdays is usually pretty thin, but they're also Webcast and archived for podcasts. Let's see if a little discussion of the breadth of our sampradaya's aspirations stirs some discussion.

Bijaya Kumara Das - August 9, 2009 5:58 am

:He He: heh, heh, heh

Attendance on Saturdays is usually pretty thin, but they're also Webcast and archived for podcasts. Let's see if a little discussion of the breadth of our sampradaya's aspirations stirs some discussion.

how did it go ? lets have an update

Tadiya Dasi - August 9, 2009 9:26 am

Krishna certainly has a sense of humor. Here's the verse I'm assigned to speak on tomorrow morning at ISKCON Alachua:
yaśodā-nandana hailā śacīra nandana

catur-vidha bhakta-bhāva kare āsvādana

The same Supreme Personality of Godhead who appeared as the son of mother Yaśodā has now appeared as the son of mother Śacī, relishing four kinds of devotional activities.

That verse reminded me of one of my favorite moments during the Summer retreat this year. There was a kirtan just before the initiation lecture and ceremony, and Guru Maharaja sang Jaya Radha-Madhava and he kept repeating the line 'Yasoda-nandana' for quite a while, alternating it with 'Saci-nandana' - it was wonderful and I felt so fortune to be present in that kirtan.

And, yes, Babhru gives us an update!

Madan Gopal Das - August 9, 2009 9:41 pm

I listened to the webcast but logged on a little late. Babhru was apologizing for bringing something up, that he had seen some devotees in class appeared uncomfortable with. What happened Babhru? I was wondering what was going on there. Was Adi-karta there?

After that Babhru gave a mini seminar on "Oh my friend" - not directly, but if you've read the book, he paraphrased many points from it. It was very nice, and people seemed to be fine with it, though I wasn't there and am only judging based on the comments afterward. Puskara for example suggested that it was fine to discuss details of rasa, "higher topics" etc., implying that Babhru was maybe oversensitive to people's responses. To which Babhru pointed out that yes, there is some reasoning behind his caution - people are just a wee bit reactionary in some corners of the GV world - IN YOUR OWN BACKYARD (Alachua)!

Laxmi-Nrsimha made a nice comment bringing out the point (from BVT) that human emotion is not altogether divorced from spiritual relationships.

I'm interested in some context Babhru prabhu. Is this the first time you've given class since you were asked not to a while back? Are you going to be taken off the schedule again because of this one?

Just wanted to say - great class! We had your back, if not physically present, through the series of internet tubes. Let us know when we can come again to add to the crowd that seems to dwindle on a Saturday morn. :He He:

Gandiva Dasi - August 10, 2009 3:07 pm

http://alachuatemplelive.blogspot.com/2009...adi-17-275.html

Try this link to Babhru Prabhu's class.

Babhru Das - August 10, 2009 3:20 pm

The talk wasn't as well organized as I would have liked, but no one objected to my assertion that, as Gm puts it, Mahaprabhu gives the entire meal and we eat according to our taste. One thing I found interesting about this verse is that Kaviraja Gosami asserts here that Mahaprabhu came to taste the four bhavas of Vraja. (Then, of course, he spends considerable time describing Mahaprabhu's tasting of sringara rati.)

Babhru Das - August 14, 2009 7:01 pm

There was an interesting development in the Vyasa-puja program here in Alachua this morning.Throughout the morning devotees shared their appreciations. My talk addressed Srila Prabhupada's "Prayer to the Lotus Feet of Krishna" and "Markine Bhagavat Dharma" as indicators of the depth of Srila Prabhupada's surrender. In the meantime, I was lamenting that I wasn't at Audarya. Then, just before the pushpanjali and noon arati, an Indian lady sang a bhajan. It was "Prayer to the Lotus Feet of Krishna." I just started laughing, which I'm sure struck nearby devotees as a little odd. But I felt a little happier for a bit.

Madan Gopal Das - September 2, 2009 4:20 pm

From Prabhupada's disciple Harer Nama das:

In 1969 Srila Prabhupada visited the temple in Santa Fe, New Mexico. It was located in a storefront on West Water Street, about one mile from the center of town.

I drove Srila Prabhupada from the airport in Albuquerque to the temple in Santa Fe. Inside the storefront, Srila Prabhupada paid obeisances to the Jagannath Deities. He sat down on the carpet near the altar. Toshan Krishna gave him an orange and apple. Srila Prabhupada reached inside the lunch bag he had with him. Five or six devotees sat with him in a circle. Srila Prabhupada took out some laddus, which were originally small balls but lumped into one big ball. He gave us with his own hand some laddhu paste. He gave me some pressing the paste in my palm. He said, “Here, Harer Nama. Take.” One guest said, “This is the best peanut butter I ever tasted” (Actually laddus are not peanut butters. They are made from chickpea flour, butter and powdered sugar.)

Srila Prabhupada said, “This is what Krishna and the cowherd boys eat for a snack when they herd the cows.” One guest asked, “Who is Krishna?” Srila Prabhupada said, “Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead who herds the cows and plays with the cowherd boys.” All the devotees felt happy to have Srila Prabhupada with them.

A few days later, Srila Prabhupada gave a class in the evening. He said the guests were very intelligent. He pointed to a painting of Radha and Krishna. He said Radha and Krishna engage in spiritual sex life.

After the class, I drove Srila Prabhupada to his apartment. Someone asked him to explain more about the spiritual sex life of Radha and Krishna. He didn’t say anything but just sat very straight. The devotees enjoyed Srila Prabhupada’s visit to Santa Fe very much.

Swami - February 27, 2010 10:34 pm

Regarding cowherd boys, I just read this in Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura's Bhagavtam commentary to 2.3.30. This is the section where Prabhupada writes that Brahma is related to Krsna in sakhya rasa (when Krsnsa shakes his hand, etc). VCT writes that Brahma prayed to Krsna thus, "May I attain bhakti with a feeling of friendship, O Lord."

Well, that settles the matter. Our Brahma of the Brahma Madhva Gaudiya sampradaya is in sakhya rasa, just as Prabhupada said he was!

Gaura-Vijaya Das - February 28, 2010 1:12 am

Regarding cowherd boys, I just read this in Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura's Bhagavtam commentary to 2.3.30. This is the section where Prabhupada writes that Brahma is related to Krsna in sakhya rasa (when Krsnsa shakes his hand, etc). VCT writes that Brahma prayed to Krsna thus, "May I attain bhakti with a feeling of friendship, O Lord."

Well, that settles the matter. Our Brahma of the Brahma Madhva Gaudiya sampradaya is in sakhya rasa, just as Prabhupada said he was!

BSST said that Brahma is in madhurya,right?

Swami - February 28, 2010 10:22 am

Excuse me, that's 2.9.30. not 2.3.30.

I believe BSST commented like that (madhurya) in Brahma-samhita, or perhaps it was BVT who did but BSST published it and translated it into English.

Swami - January 1, 2011 5:36 pm

I was having some difficulty appreciating the BBT's translation of one line from Prabhupada's prayer. This line:

gocarane ghuri din bhor

The BBT renders din bhor "early in the morning": "In the early morning I will wander about the cowherd pastures and fields.

Din means day and bhor as a noun means day break. Hence their rendering. But you don't need din to say early in the morning. Bhor would be sufficient. So I looked into the issue. As it turns out bhor also means "continuously" as a suffix. Din bhor together thus means "All through the day," bhor being the suffix for din.

Thus, "Wandering with the cows throughout the day."

This more correct translation makes an even stronger case for Prabbupada's sakhya rasa. Cowherding for Krsna is an all day affair.

Now bhora as an adjective or adverb means "stupefied." If it were taken to modify ghuri (wandering) we would have "Wandering stupefied during the day in the cow fields." That's a stretch, but . . .

Babhru Das - January 2, 2011 5:39 pm

Looking for the Like button again. Thanks. This, together with the consistent mistranslation of the opening line, makes it hard to see Srila Prabhupada's poem clearly, I think. That "Oh, brothers" persists. I think we may have discussed this before, but even recently Dasarath-suta published translations of Prabhupada's Bengali poems, and he translated that opening line with the same mistake. When he visited here a few months ago, I mentioned it to him. He grinned sheepishly and replied just as he had earlier, I think to Madan Gopal: "You've found the only error in the book."

Swami - January 2, 2011 6:14 pm

Looking for the Like button again. Thanks. This, together with the consistent mistranslation of the opening line, makes it hard to see Srila Prabhupada's poem clearly, I think. That "Oh, brothers" persists. I think we may have discussed this before, but even recently Dasarath-suta published translations of Prabhupada's Bengali poems, and he translated that opening line with the same mistake. When he visited here a few months ago, I mentioned it to him. He grinned sheepishly and replied just as he had earlier, I think to Madan Gopal: "You've found the only error in the book."

Well we just found another one!

Babhru Das - January 2, 2011 7:47 pm

Oh--that's from Dasrarath's book? I'd better look.

Babhru Das - January 2, 2011 7:54 pm

In his collection of Srila Prabhupada's poetry, "A Shower of Divine Compassion," Dasaratha-suta has dina bhora as "all through the day" in his word for word, and his translation says "I will pass the entire day with you tending the cows," etc. At least he didn't blow that part. I wonder if I--or you--should approach Dravida and JSwami about this. It seems these errors must be corrected some day. (Then, of course, they'll get grief for changing more than just the books.)

Swami - January 2, 2011 9:34 pm

In his collection of Srila Prabhupada's poetry, "A Shower of Divine Compassion," Dasaratha-suta has dina bhora as "all through the day" in his word for word, and his translation says "I will pass the entire day with you tending the cows," etc. At least he didn't blow that part. I wonder if I--or you--should approach Dravida and JSwami about this. It seems these errors must be corrected some day. (Then, of course, they'll get grief for changing more than just the books.)

Oh good. He got that right!

Babhru Das - January 2, 2011 11:41 pm

If you'd like a copy of his book, this one's yours.

Madan Gopal Das - January 3, 2011 1:49 pm

yes, I wish someone with some clout would approach the editors asap and have "Oh brother's" changed. That mis-translation has GREAT ramifications for misunderstanding, and the proper translation has great potential for deep deep understanding of Srila Prabhupada and consequently clarifying some aspects of rasa-tattva which devotees struggle with these days. Of course, you know that Babhru - since you authored a book on the subject!

Heck, maybe they can make a GBC announcement bringing the changed translation to the attention of all iskcon devotees since iskcon is Prabhupada-centric.

Bijaya Kumara Das - January 5, 2011 12:36 am

I was having some difficulty appreciating the BBT's translation of one line from Prabhupada's prayer. This line:

gocarane ghuri din bhor

Thus, "Wandering with the cows throughout the day."

This more correct translation makes an even stronger case for Prabbupada's sakhya rasa. Cowherding for Krsna is an all day affair.

Dearest GuruMaharaja your nectar gets sweeter by the moment.

thanks

Madan Gopal Das - October 22, 2013 12:55 am

another thread bump! Just posting a comment here to direct newcomers or remind old timers of some nectar! I think this thread was the genesis of O My Friend!

Rohininandana Das - October 22, 2013 11:02 pm

thanks for that Madan Gopal, just checked "view new content" and it showed this

started reading it randomly and its great, will have to start reading it from 1st page(and there is 46 already, that will be some cool reading for the next days:) )

thanks again for thread bump!

Swami B. A. Ashram - October 31, 2013 4:40 pm

another thread bump! Just posting a comment here to direct newcomers or remind old timers of some nectar! I think this thread was the genesis of O My Friend!

Indeed it was.