Tattva-viveka
partial faith
Gandiva Dasi - September 23, 2007 4:52 pm
Could anyone comment about this ; Taken from Dhanurdhara Swami's Greeting from Vrndavana book pg107-108, a discussion with Pradyumna about a book called "Partial Faith is not Faith at All",
..."Partial faith is not faith at all because when one is selective in the acceptance of their teacher's authority, even if it is only a small percentage of the time it really means that one is accepting the authority of their teacher only when the teacher agrees with them. Partial faith means that their actual faith is in their own authority , not their teacher's, even if one agrees with their teacher ninety-nine percent of the time".
I don't want to take it out of context, but what is the relationship to weak faith, firm faith, blind faith. How about the relationship between humility and faith?
Vivek - September 23, 2007 5:04 pm
Yes this is a good thread but it is generally the conception prevalent in ISKCON and everywhere. like if you guru says the crow has 3 legs you have to accept blindly without question. That is real faith in Guru, forgetting about your intelligence.
I guess there is a downside to this blind acceptance but on the positive side it is so safe and a minimum risk option.
Syamasundara - September 23, 2007 6:39 pm
Here is only my reflections.
Sraddha is another name for Radha, and Radha is only meant for Krsna. If we put our faith in any other person, it's only inasmuch as such person represents Krsna or a way to attain him.
When I met Sri Guru, the tuning fork in my heart started to vibrate stronger and stronger. Was it blind faith? Actually I was trying to fight it, shy as I was with the things I had seen in Iskcon, I thought it was too early, but I had full faith in Nityananda Prabhu. It's funny how it's easier to have full faith in a God you have only heard or read about than in a real person, but it makes sense. If God is God, by definition he is unlimited and almighty, so I addressed him, thinking I can't even trust my own sincerity and faith, so "You please take care of this Guru issue. I have faith in you." And then the tuning fork went crazy one day...
When GM met SP how "informed" was GM's faith about Guru Tattva back then? Or was it because SP was a charismatic person? It's almost a chemical bond, like two drops of oil floating on the broth slowly and when they find each other the join very fast (yes, I used to play a lot with food as a kid).
Still, I know so many people who felt the same bond and tuning fork about their guru and then things went bad. Was it because they weren't sincere and found a guru that matched their scarse sincerity? Was it because they were ignorant? Certainly, a bit of knowledge and reasoning is helpful in the choice of the guru, but not as determining in my opinion.
There is a phase where both the guru and the disciple study and test each other, and that's healthy on both sides, but after that, once the choice is made, there shouldn't be such a thing as partial faith.
Again, our faith is really in Krsna, and if Sri Guru is not being God anymore, then we resort to the guru inside and we keep doing our duty. The onus is on us, we really need to be concerned about being perfect disciples. Sincerity is invincible. By this I don't mean remaining faithful and physically stay with people like that sannyasi we read about the other day. Just that if we keep sincere and have a service attitude, then we are right, Krsna will not ignore that, and when the time is right things will fall in place; if the guru is not adequate any more, we might even change him, and it will happen as smoothly and seamlessly as when we shift gear on a bike.
But what if we start questioning the guru openly or within ourselves, and then he or she proved to be right. What will be our position? Would we question Krsna?
If our faith is full, then we are fully pervaded by Radharani and her sakti, and she always finds a way to attain Krsna; our intellect and doubting power, however, is destined to bounce within the bubble of samsara.
Then again, we can always humbly and affectionately approach our guru, especially our GM, and have a dialog (unlike San Diego policewomen, bless their hearts), which in the case of our specific guru-varga is encouraged (not like I ever took advantage of it). It will only show a mature desire to attain Krsna, which is the goal of both guru and disciple, and there is only glory in that.
So, as far as I am concerned, I don't know about crows' legs, but Durvasa Muni endulges in sweets and Krsna is a brahmacari.
Syamasundara - September 23, 2007 7:44 pm
So, faith shouldn't be partial, nor blind, but full.
For example, I didn't need to read that whole and lengthy thread about Dhanurdhara Maharaja, as much as I tried. My GM likes him, accepts him, and that's good enough for me; I have full faith.
But what about the service attitude? What if I come across someone who only knows bad things about maharaja, and on top of it I tell him my gurudeva is favorable to him? How does that translate in people's minds? How can I rebut to their arguments if I haven't even read that thread?
Service and sraddha go together, they are both Radharani.
Still, that thread is soooo long... 
Audarya-lila Dasa - September 23, 2007 10:28 pm
I guess it might be semantics, but I feel that the idea that one has to blindly accept everything goes totally against Gaudiya siddhanta. When we accept the guidance of Sri Guru we do so based on a deep faith that he/she has some genuine love/experience and can guide us in such a way that we will one day develop a similar love and gain similar experience. That doesn't mean we throw our intelligence away or that we now must blindly accept everything or else feel we don't have genuine faith.
There may be things we don't understand or can't reconcile but we have faith that at some point our understanding will deepen. Another thing is that many times people feel that they must blindly accept anything and everything spoken by Sri Guru as absolute and we have seen where that leads based on many things that have happened and continue to happen in Iskcon. Srila Prabhupada made comments on many things relative and absolute. It takes some discrimination to think about that and sort it out. It's not that one lacks faith if they don't accept that women have smaller brains just because Srila Prabhupada said it. That is a relative consideration. So many devotees have gotten lost in this type of thing and go to ridiculous ends to show how every utterance of Srila Prabhupada was absolute.
Like Syamasundara said, our faith is shown by our service and our service attitude.
As far as the relationship between different types of faith goes - we are our faith. Weak faith can be changed because the person lacks experience. Blind faith is fanaticism - it is unquestioning even in the face of obvious contradiction. Firm faith can only come to us when we gain some genuine standing in bhakti.
I'm sure others have much more to say on this subject and I have to go for now - so I'll leave it there for now....
Vivek - September 24, 2007 2:32 am
I have a instance when devotees who are pretty chaste to prabhupada finding difficulty in adjusting some translations of prabhupada to fit the siddhanta well but at the same time it is impossible to edit them or else it will be overstepping the guru.
Once I had one question to Trivikrama Swami who had forwarded it to Dravida prabhu and his response goes like this
> > > 2. Second question is from chapter 15.18 where
> > > prabhupada quotes the following( It is not clear
> > to me
> > > how supersoul merges into impersonal brahmajyoti
> > as i
> > > thought it merges into body of mahavisnu at each
> > cycle
> > > of creation, kindly explain that).
As for this translation of Chandogya Upanisad 8.12.3, Gopiparanadhana
Prabhu gave this alternate translation, under the impression that the
original had also been done by him. But when we learned that the
original
was Prabhupada's, he withdrew it. Here's his alternate translation:
"When the Supersoul manifests Himself separately from the material
body, He
displays His own form, radiating the supreme light of Brahman. That
Supreme
is called the Supreme Personality."
Prabhupada took "the supreme light of Brahman" to be the brahmajyoti.
Not
unreasonable. It's the "entering" the brahmajyoti that causes the
confusion. But I'm afraid that won't be changed. So again, glean your
own
understanding from the alternate translation.
This is all I can add on these questions.
Your servant,
Dravida dasa
So he says that is the entering the brahmajyoti that causes confusion but at same time it is impossible to edit the translation to make it more clear to audience. Again it is because of blind and "full" faith, which may result in the Guru getting no feedback on the confusion caused due to linguistic difficulties.
to help him
Nitaisundara Das - September 24, 2007 3:28 am
Could anyone comment about this ; Taken from Dhanurdhara Swami's Greeting from Vrndavana book pg107-108, a discussion with Pradyumna about a book called "Partial Faith is not Faith at All",..."Partial faith is not faith at all because when one is selective in the acceptance of their teacher's authority, even if it is only a small percentage of the time it really means that one is accepting the authority of their teacher only when the teacher agrees with them. Partial faith means that their actual faith is in their own authority , not their teacher's, even if one agrees with their teacher ninety-nine percent of the time".
I don't want to take it out of context, but what is the relationship to weak faith, firm faith, blind faith. How about the relationship between humility and faith?
I think the problem is when we don't know what is an issue of faith or not. For example, if we are planning the temple and GM says "use that glue to bond that wood". If someone then goes and uses a different glue, that is totally alright, as GM is not an authority on wood-binding glue, although you'd hope the other person is.
When GM says "this will be helpful to your practice, worship a deity" or something like that, we should have faith that from his vantage point outside the modes he can see our situation clearer then us, BUT.....It's imperitave that we take the initiative to reveal our mind(as painful and embarrassing as it can sometimes be). OF course GM has tought us that Sri Guru is not omniscient so we should realize that theory and make ourselves like an open book for him to see all of our misprints, mispellings, villanious characters, and repeatedly empty storylines. It is not the gurus responsibility to chase after us saying "are you sure this is how you feel? anything else?" Although we don't want to burden our guru with our ugly thoughts, in the long run this will be funneled into service because it is only after the doctor knows the problem can he fix it then a healthy patient can work for the doctor being evidence of his skill. Gm said something to this effect in a SANGA where someone was doubting if the service they did for their guru was within the boundaries of GV practice. GM said you should have such intimacy to ask the guru.
This seems to me like the important lesson in this topic, of course we don't have full faith, but I believe Srila Sridhar Maharaja said there is gradation everywhere. Anyway, whether here or there if we are honest with our loving guide and he is indeed our loving guide, only good things can result.
I think weak faith can be when sukriti is fructifying but one has not learned much sambhanda yet, it can develop to firm faith with sambhanda and good association. Or it can stay weak and maybe diminish with offenses and bad association. I like to think I've blind faith as our goal(I try to have a poetic head). We want faith that blinds us with love, such that "faults become ornaments". Then we can perceive something totally contrary to what we think is good or Krsna Conscious and not be shaken by that, we can hear that the moon IS closer than the sun and still have faith in our Guru Parampara and our Sastra.
I know for a fact that the things I've told Sri Guru which appeared to keep me further from him, definitely brought me closer in the course o their revealing.
Okay I'm rambling sorry....
Gandiva Dasi - September 25, 2007 2:28 pm
Thank you all for so many thoughtful and personal points, your sanga is increasing my faith daily 
I appreciated all the points, especially that the onus is on the disciple to reveal his/her mind, be sincere and have a humble service attitude. Also the point that
'There may be things we don't understand or can't reconcile but we have faith that at some point our understanding will deepen. And the point of relative and absolute truths, and different angles of vision of the same truth.
Nitai Sundara, your whole reply was very helpful, you are way too wise for your years.
Getting to the peritnent point for me..
"of course we don't have full faith, but I believe Srila Sridhar Maharaja said there is gradation everywhere. Anyway, whether here or there if we are honest with our loving guide and he is indeed our loving guide, only good things can result"
Certainly the genuine sentiment or the desire of the disciple to develop unflinching faith with understanding, conviction and realization is beneficial to the eventual attainment of it.