Tattva-viveka
DAIRY KRISHNA
Jananivasdas - November 14, 2007 11:14 am
Bhrigu - November 14, 2007 12:34 pm
This is an interesting paper. Unfortunately Maharaja does not give any indication of what "the real" price of totally violencefree milk would be. It would be great if one could get raw, totally ahimsa milk from somewhere, and I would certainly be ready to pay more for it, but how much more? 2€ a litre? 5€?
Brahma Dasa - November 15, 2007 2:30 am
I thought the article was very weird, and don’t think his arguments against being vegan have much merit. In my opinion, there is no substantial reason that a devotee can’t be vegan—either for health reasons or humanitarian reasons—or both.
Vivek - November 16, 2007 12:37 am
I thought the article was very weird, and don’t think his arguments against being vegan have much merit. In my opinion, there is no substantial reason that a devotee can’t be vegan—either for health reasons or humanitarian reasons—or both.
I agree with Brahma completely. Obviously I have respect for the austerities Danavir Maharaja can perform, and I will never be able to come close to that but sometimes he goes overboard in using Vedic evidence, and hence does disservice to the Vedas instead of revealing their glory. He has done that with his puranic cosmology books as well as here in this article.
Many people have know to be allergic to milk and sometimes milk can act as a carcinogenic if taken in excess. And I have heard ( bhrigu correct me if I am wrong) that BSST recommended minimal milk for his brahmacaris. Even some yogis don't like to use milk as part of their diet.
This is not to say that I don't take milk-- in fact I really love milk but I won't push my taste down the throat of people who abstain from milk for health and moral reasons.
Brahma Dasa - November 16, 2007 2:39 am
I think that a case could be made that being vegan for humanitarian reasons is actually favorable for bhakti, provided of course that one is not offensively fanatic about it. While organic milk is available almost everywhere, milk that is totally cruelty-free is nowhere to be found on the market. Thus boycotting milk products is a meaningful and practical way that devotees who don't have access to a Krishna conscious dairy can by example protest the cruelty and slaughter of dairy cows.
Properly done vegan--ism can also enhance the preaching, and a vegan diet (no cheese- ice cream—sour cream etc) requires greater sense control and thus more sacrifice. Such sacrifice in relation to cow protection (bhakti) is certainly purifying.
By the way---I am not a vegan but I often wish that I was.
Bd
Syamasundara - November 16, 2007 3:41 am
I am not a vegan either, and I don't particularly wish to be one any time soon, especially now that I'm thriving on milk and cereal, but I have all respect for vegans nonetheless. I don't particularly like the fanatical and aggressive ones, but then again, we could also come across as quite extreme for being reluctant to eat from a non vegetarian kitchen.
As said in previous posts, the vegan cause can only benefit the planet and the cows; in my small reality that means that when I read that something is vegan i can buy it without bothering with reading the ingredients (thank God, I'm developing a huge mental database with the ingredients of everything out there).
As far as the article, I was slightly thrown by the tone and all those "he knew" referring to SP. Plus, I don't think vegans really say that milk is pus, but that it might contain it, which brings me to the next point.
I have no problem accepting the Vedas (only a few days ago I made a sculpture of cow poop...), but I think it's a healthy mental exercise to keep in mind also that the Vedas are circumstantial to a land that is very much influenced by a monsoon, that has a certain climate etc. Many of you may know that Nestle at some point tried to increase the sales of its powdered milk in India, by convincing women that their fortified powdered milk was much better that their breasts', with the result that all the ignorant Indian village mothers started to mix that powder with their local water, not knowing that the babies had practically no antibodies, especially if not breast fed, and this brought to catastrophic consequences.
Similarly, the Vedas may say certain things about milk, but the milk that's most available these days has very little in common with the "Vedic" milk.
I read years ago an article about pasteurization and homogenation explaining how milk is sprayed onto very hot metal walls that kill any bacteria as well as enzymes that milk may contain to facilitate at least its own digestion, and that by homogenization the fat particles become so small that they insinuate in the blood run and increase bad cholesterol.
Even the milk of our cows may not reflect exactly the description of the Vedas for what we know. To begin with they are a tropical breed living in the mountains, they eat dry grass for the most part, the origin of which is not very certain, etc. It doesn't quite sound like the way cows are kept in India (by cowherders, not the ones living on garbage in Delhi).
I am only consuming organic milk now, and come to think of it, I started when I found a house in San Diego, living with a vegan. I felt uneasy stashing the fridge with my dairies, so I tried at least to use organic ones, but organic doesn't mean vegan. For example, the organic milk I find at the store is either ultra pasteurized, or "enriched" with all kinds of vitamins; too bad vitamin D is extracted from fish, and what makes a synthetic vitamin organic? Where do these companies get the vitamins they use to fortify their organic milk?
Once I read that all these vitamins are extracted by either boiling the heck out of slaughterhouse "bits", or by processing sewer sludge (I had to read that 3 times to believe my eyes). So, these are tough times folks.
To be fair, I haven't really read maharaja's article to the end, so I don't know what he proposes for the new era of cow husbandry, but I welcome both any non-violent, Krsna conscious way to produce milk, and the growth of the vegan movement.
Grant Upson - November 16, 2007 4:25 pm
I have seen on several occasions preaching exchanges between devotees and vegans/animal rights activists quickly devolve into uncivil ideological arguments. As a former very staunch vegan, I am aware of the degree to which dietary choices can become an all-encompassing worldview. When that worldview, however, collides with fragmentary, but fanatically espoused Vedic conceptions of proper diet and go-centric agrarian life, the results are ugly. Why devotees would make diet the chief point of emphasis in discussion with persons who share in our aversion to animal exploitation, I am unsure.
Sadly, I can also aware of instances when vegans have deliberately been tricked by devotees into consuming prasadam with milk ingredients. The mentality was, "it's for their own good." Who looks like the fanatic?
Bhrigu - November 16, 2007 5:13 pm
I don't think we need another non-vegan/ vegan - debate here on TV. To me, both sides have good arguments. For Maharaja, Srila Prabhupada is the primary source of evidence, and Srila Prabhupada clearly thought that devotees should drink milk. His argumentation hinges on that point. What I found more interesting in Maharaja's paper was his idea of really making the best of a bad bargain. If we cannot get completely violence-free milk but still wish to use milk products for Krishna (as most devotees do, regardless of whether they sympathise with vegan ideas), what should we do? Just say no to milk or yes to any kind of milk, or strike a middle path? And if we do so, what would be the factors that would contribute to rate one type of dairy farm above another?
Personally, I am thinking of whether it could be possible to band together with other people to get a weekly quota of raw, as violencefree and environmentally sustainable milk as possible. I think Maharaja is correct in that there could be a niche for farmers to produce such milk, if there was a demand.
Madan Gopal Das - November 16, 2007 6:39 pm
I was a vegan for several years before I joined KC and then a few years ago I went "conditionally" vegan out of protest of all this stuff and lasted about a year and a half. I was only drinking milk from devotee cared for cows... What we do now, and I would suggest to anyone who doesn't live around protected cows but wants the best case scenario is to search out your local raw milk cartel. It is illegal to sell raw milk here in NC, but the Mennonites sell it here to people while claiming it is for pet use only. Raw milk has become a hot commodity in certain circles, with people claiming wild health benefits, etc. It's worth a try to see if you have one around you. Look in dark alley's for dealers - 
My problem with the Maharaj's article was also that he states many times "Prabhupada knew" this and that and still wanted his disciples to drink milk. In reality, Maharaj is compiling quotes from different instances all over Prabhupada's teachings and putting them together in one paper addressing the milk issue. It makes it look as if Prabhupada was very concerned about the milk issue and it is something he really hammered into his followers heads - "come hell or high water, drink milk!" I'm very skeptical that if Prabhupada was handed a compilation of evidence of the ills of the modern dairy industry along with a spectrum of ideas of what devotees have done to cope, that he would make a solid pronouncement about how one and all should deal with their dairy dilemma's. I just don't see Prabhupada as that black and white. Seems to me another instance of deferring to Prabhupada's words in the past and relating them to a current issue and then trying to get everyone else on board with what is really your idea! That is easier than doing the work to sort out what you individually think is the best thing to do...
Vamsidhari Dasa - November 16, 2007 7:38 pm
The problem I have with this article is who wrote it, bye.
Prema-bhakti - November 16, 2007 11:33 pm
The problem I have with this article is who wrote it, bye.
I kind of have to agree with you on that one.
Madan Gopal Das - November 17, 2007 3:56 am
You make me smile Vamsi.
Vamsidhari Dasa - November 19, 2007 2:41 am
I only endeavor to serve you!
Jananivasdas - November 19, 2007 2:18 pm
I don't think we need another non-vegan/ vegan - debate here on TV.
i back up this quote 100%.
:Cow: 
:Applause:
vamsi: why is raw milk illegal to sell?!? 
that sounds so odd?
Madan Gopal Das - November 19, 2007 4:48 pm
vamsi: why is raw milk illegal to sell?!?
I think that was meant for me... In the U.S., the dairy industry has a huge lobby force in the government and so to sell milk that doesn't go through their system (pasteurization and homogenization) is cutting out of their market and they no like that. They will do propaganda saying that raw milk is hazardous to your health and as usual when business $$ is at stake, the best means to beat your adversary is to use fear.
Brahma Dasa - November 19, 2007 5:17 pm
Pasteurization greatly improves the shelf life of milk which in todays supermarket culture is a must. However, it seems to me that in any free country one should be allowed freedom of choice in regards to farm fresh whole milk, even though there may be some health risks involved.
Here is some infomation:
www.realmilk.com/why.html
Jiva-daya Dasa - November 19, 2007 11:29 pm
I was talking to a nurse at the health department about this issue one time. I was helping mostly Spanish-speaking families getting settled for Mexico and Central America where homemade dairy products are very popular. As we discussed the health crisis (Listeriosis) going on at that time due to some "bad batches" of cheese and cuajada, the nurse took the opportunity to go on and on about the need to enforce strict control of milk processing. It really reminded me of how many government agencies there are out there that claim to be "saving us for ourselves" and that it is all for our own good. Ha...
Syamasundara - November 20, 2007 12:00 am
The story of milk lobbies reminds me of the huge campaign against hemp in the 30's.
As far as nurses and medics they are such prophylaxis freaks sometimes, and some other times they really sound like religious fundamentalists, not knowing they are just repeating what they chose to teach them at school.
I once came across a webpage that I can't find any more. It said how Pasteur's rival had come up with a theory, well and facts, that proved that the recently discovered microbes can nothing if the "terrain" is not favorable, and by terrain he meant the blood pH, electrical charge and something else, he also said the microbes are much like stem cells, and can become this or that good or bad bacteria according to the terrain.
I can't remember all the details, but the article seemed to make a lot of sense, however, Pasteur had a strong political and scientific support from certain acquaintances, which his rival didn't have, so they just squashed him and silenced him. It appears that on his death bed Pasteur told this guy he was right, it was all about the terrain.
Back to milk, I finally put my hands on all the books and pictures I left at a friend's when I left for Europe in 2001 and I found this booklet that came with a case of kefir that GM bought once for his healt. I just finished and I must say that kefir is definitely something I'll be making on a regular basis when I have my own home, with a real functional kitchen; but it can only be made with raw milk, that luckily is legal in California.
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - November 20, 2007 1:48 am
You can get http://www.organicpastures.com/ raw milk in any Whole Foods store. It is very expensive though.