Tattva-viveka
seeing krsna within everything
Vivek - February 23, 2008 11:06 pm
I always had the confusion about how a pure unalloyed devotee sees krsna everywhere. Krsna in his instructions to Uddhava about bhakti yoga in 11th canto says that we should see him present in all living entities but SSM and BSST point that doing devotion and to krsna and perceiving paramatma to be existing everywhere is not pure devotion yet: it is jnana misra bhakti. So does a pure devotee not see krsna in material creation or other living entities?
Does he just see krsna two fold bending form when it appears and ignores everything else which he sees? Or does he still continue to see krsna in the form of paramatma in every living entity and in every atom.
I would be grateful if something clarifies the detail about the vision of one who is in pure devotion.
Syamasundara - February 24, 2008 11:10 am
As usual, don't take mine as the official answer, but this is what my initial thoughts are:
I don't really know where I'm at as far as spiritual advancement, I know it's pretty down low, at the same time I don't find it so difficult to conceive of Krsna, or "see" him everywhere. Actually, sometimes I find it impossible not to think or be reminded of Krsna. Some other times I am flat out disconnected and behaving as if I didn't remember or know better.
In my opinion you took the matter too literally. Also, the comment about jñana-misra bhakti refers to transcendentalists who are treading a different path altogether; their goal is to see the Paramatma, but there is no service and loving attitude, so no question of unalloyed bhakti.
For a bhakta to see Krsna everywhere, or any other form of Bhagavan for that matter, means what I was talking about before. I see clouds at sunset, blue on top and pink at the bottom, and I think of Krsna's feet, I see bumblebees, creepers hugging trees, a man with a broad chest (like Krsna), with a deep voice, a boy and a girl in love, friends being friends, cows, the sun, the moon, incarnated souls beautifying themselves, the ability in man, the intelligence in women, sharks, lions, sugar (that can't taste itself), the taste of water, people's ego, maya at work, people serving, dominating people... and I am constantly reminded of Krsna. This is all the mercy of guru, sadhu and sastra. The reminders are constant if we can read them, because the fact of the matter is that vasudevam sarvam iti. Seeing Krsna everywhere is not a mental exercise, but just good vision. Krsna becomes the underlying and all-pervading feeling of everything you do or don't do. Or at least, again, that's what it is for me. Then, of course, there are a lot of pitfalls and interruptions and coffee breaks (not literally), but you know, sama-dhi will come at some point, and that's the real level you were talking about.
Seeing the paramatma in every atom, on the other hand, really feels like strenuous intellectual exercise, and seeing tribhanga Syamasundara literally in every atom or everywhere sounds more like a trip (in the drug sense) in a house of mirrors.
Here is one of my out there examples: the Paramatma is much like the DNA.
If you think about it, the DNA is in every single cell of a body, but the whole body is contained in the genetic code (that is in every cell).
So the paramatma is the DNA of the universe, in every atom, but the whole universe is in him.
Going back to genetics, if you are studying that subject, say for an exam, after a while, you won't be able to intellectually visualize the DNA in every single cell of someone or something, but you'll have a different vision, you'll see someone's blue eyes just like his or her mother, and you'll see the DNA at work, you'll see people balding, walking, smelling, etc, and you'll see the DNA, but you won't "really" see the DNA.
I hope it helped.
Vivek - February 24, 2008 6:59 pm
As usual, don't take mine as the official answer, but this is what my initial thoughts are:
I don't really know where I'm at as far as spiritual advancement, I know it's pretty down low, at the same time I don't find it so difficult to conceive of Krsna, or "see" him everywhere. Actually, sometimes I find it impossible not to think or be reminded of Krsna. Some other times I am flat out disconnected and behaving as if I didn't remember or know better.
In my opinion you took the matter too literally. Also, the comment about jñana-misra bhakti refers to transcendentalists who are treading a different path altogether; their goal is to see the Paramatma, but there is no service and loving attitude, so no question of unalloyed bhakti.
For a bhakta to see Krsna everywhere, or any other form of Bhagavan for that matter, means what I was talking about before. I see clouds at sunset, blue on top and pink at the bottom, and I think of Krsna's feet, I see bumblebees, creepers hugging trees, a man with a broad chest (like Krsna), with a deep voice, a boy and a girl in love, friends being friends, cows, the sun, the moon, incarnated souls beautifying themselves, the ability in man, the intelligence in women, sharks, lions, sugar (that can't taste itself), the taste of water, people's ego, maya at work, people serving, dominating people... and I am constantly reminded of Krsna. This is all the mercy of guru, sadhu and sastra. The reminders are constant if we can read them, because the fact of the matter is that vasudevam sarvam iti. Seeing Krsna everywhere is not a mental exercise, but just good vision. Krsna becomes the underlying and all-pervading feeling of everything you do or don't do. Or at least, again, that's what it is for me. Then, of course, there are a lot of pitfalls and interruptions and coffee breaks (not literally), but you know, sama-dhi will come at some point, and that's the real level you were talking about.
Seeing the paramatma in every atom, on the other hand, really feels like strenuous intellectual exercise, and seeing tribhanga Syamasundara literally in every atom or everywhere sounds more like a trip (in the drug sense) in a house of mirrors.
Here is one of my out there examples: the Paramatma is much like the DNA.
If you think about it, the DNA is in every single cell of a body, but the whole body is contained in the genetic code (that is in every cell).
So the paramatma is the DNA of the universe, in every atom, but the whole universe is in him.
Going back to genetics, if you are studying that subject, say for an exam, after a while, you won't be able to intellectually visualize the DNA in every single cell of someone or something, but you'll have a different vision, you'll see someone's blue eyes just like his or her mother, and you'll see the DNA at work, you'll see people balding, walking, smelling, etc, and you'll see the DNA, but you won't "really" see the DNA.
I hope it helped.
thanks for your reply; the way you conceive krsna is how I also do but I was just checking how the advanced souls do that. I just wanted to see what krsna means when he says that he devotee sees him everywhere. Like Prahlad is able to see krsna is every atom: does he see four armed visnu form in every atom or krsna's form in every atom. You are talking about being reminded about krsna whenever you see anything in the creation. I was asking whether advanced devotee see the form of krsna or visnu everywhere instead of linking things which they see to krsna.
Syamasundara - February 24, 2008 8:13 pm
May I humbly suggest you read my post again?
Like Prahlad is able to see krsna is every atom
What are the exact words in the SB in relation to that?
Incidentally, Prahlada's ista-devata is Krsna, his guru is Narada Muni.
We are talking about the Absolute, there is no difference between Krsna and remembrance of Krsna.
Plus, even at the highest levels of liberated life, what would be the use, for the purpose of lila and seva, of actually seeing Krsna being or doing stuff in every single atom? How could you even step on the Vrndavana sand if you saw him in every atom of every grain, and how would you even see your own body for that matter?
At the same time, it is possible to step on the Vrndavana dust and think "Krsna" while stepping on it, because that dust covers his body at the end of the day, because his lotus foot prints decorate the entire land, etc, or in your body, because he touched it, or you used it to serve in some capacity.
Could it be that you ask questions with an answer in mind and you are not satisfied unless and until you get confirmation to that?
Zvonimir Tosic - February 25, 2008 12:48 am
Incidentally, Prahlada's ista-devata is Krsna, his guru is Narada Muni.
Can you please elaborate this a bit more, on how's Prahlada actually connected to Krishna and not to Visnu or Nrsimhadeva.
Thank you.
Zvonimir Tosic - February 25, 2008 1:40 am
I would be grateful if something clarifies the detail about the vision of one who is in pure devotion.
I can't clarify, but am willing to help, because that topic attracts me as well.
When you're in love, you see your beloved everywhere.
Everything you see and feel with your senses reminds you of your lover. And everything about your lover becomes charming and permeates your existence. You think about your lover all the time, dream about your lover and you two are invisibly connected, and, what's even more crazy, you want to become one with your lover.
That weird thing that makes all this possible is called love. Without it, you can't see a thing rightly, or better, you can see things but they are rather upside down, as Krishna says in Bhagavad-gita (15.1). Brahma-samhita (5.38) describes love beautifully:
premanjana-churita-bhakti-vilocanena santah sadaiva hridayeshu vilokayanti ...
Syamasundara - February 25, 2008 1:59 am
It is said that all the speakers and listeners in the Bhagavatam (Suta, Saunaka, Suka, Pariksit, Vyasa, Ambarisa, Bharata, Prahlada, Dhruva) had Krsna as their ista-devata; not necessarily Vraja Krsna, but Krsna nonetheless.
Although it may appear that the nara-hari-rupa was just a device of Visnu to prove his devotee right and to override Hiranyakasipu's invulnerability, Narasimha's form is as eternal as any other, so it's true, Prahlada could have been a devotee of Nrsimha even before his official appearance in this world.
However, GM says Prahlada had a Krsna conception of God, and he is really my only source, but I am sure he is referring to some acarya I can't remember. There is a Sanga about this, too.
In the 7th canto the name Govinda is used regarding Prahlada's absorption, but then again, all the names of Visnu and Krsna are interchangeable.
For example, Yasoda mayi would chant the 12 names of Visnu to protect baby Krsna (after the Putana shock etc), which are none other than the names we use while applying tilaka, or for the months:
Kesava, Narayana, Madhava, Govinda, Visnu, Madhusudana, Trivikrama, Vamana, Sridhara, Hrsikesa, Padmanabha, Damodara.
Govinda and Damodara refer notoriously to Krsna lila, yet Yasoda used them as names of Visnu to protect Krsna, which means they were already known before Krsna's advent, just like we know of Kalki.
A little off the topic, but as bizarre in our eyes, I believe there is a Nrsimha loka in Vaikuntha, where Nrsimha does... what? Apparently he just hangs out with his half lion form, with no real purpose, but lila transcends purpose, although it may fulfill many at the same time often.
Weirder still is that there is a planet for Kesava, Narayana, Madhava, etc, where the only difference is in the position of club, conch, lotus and cakra in each hand. Go figure. At the same time, loka means world or planet, as well as level of consciousness, just like we all live on the same planet, but each in their world.
The last paragraphs weren't really in answer to your question, I guess I was just adding more questions or food for thought.
Vivek - February 25, 2008 5:49 am
It is said that all the speakers and listeners in the Bhagavatam (Suta, Saunaka, Suka, Pariksit, Vyasa, Ambarisa, Bharata, Prahlada, Dhruva) had Krsna as their ista-devata; not necessarily Vraja Krsna, but Krsna nonetheless.Although it may appear that the nara-hari-rupa was just a device of Visnu to prove his devotee right and to override Hiranyakasipu's invulnerability, Narasimha's form is as eternal as any other, so it's true, Prahlada could have been a devotee of Nrsimha even before his official appearance in this world.
However, GM says Prahlada had a Krsna conception of God, and he is really my only source, but I am sure he is referring to some acarya I can't remember. There is a Sanga about this, too.
In the 7th canto the name Govinda is used regarding Prahlada's absorption, but then again, all the names of Visnu and Krsna are interchangeable.
For example, Yasoda mayi would chant the 12 names of Visnu to protect baby Krsna (after the Putana shock etc), which are none other than the names we use while applying tilaka, or for the months:
Kesava, Narayana, Madhava, Govinda, Visnu, Madhusudana, Trivikrama, Vamana, Sridhara, Hrsikesa, Padmanabha, Damodara.
Govinda and Damodara refer notoriously to Krsna lila, yet Yasoda used them as names of Visnu to protect Krsna, which means they were already known before Krsna's advent, just like we know of Kalki.
A little off the topic, but as bizarre in our eyes, I believe there is a Nrsimha loka in Vaikuntha, where Nrsimha does... what? Apparently he just hangs out with his half lion form, with no real purpose, but lila transcends purpose, although it may fulfill many at the same time often.
Weirder still is that there is a planet for Kesava, Narayana, Madhava, etc, where the only difference is in the position of club, conch, lotus and cakra in each hand. Go figure. At the same time, loka means world or planet, as well as level of consciousness, just like we all live on the same planet, but each in their world.
The last paragraphs weren't really in answer to your question, I guess I was just adding more questions or food for thought.
I don't think there is a narsimha loka. If I recall GM had pointed out once that all incarnations of Narayana are shown in Vaikuntha Loka from time to time but there is no specific loka for them. Only for Ramacandra there is Ayodhya and obviously we have different spheres of krsna.
Syamasundara - February 25, 2008 7:33 am
I guess it's finally time I studied the instructions of Mahaprabhu to Sanatana Gosvami, because I am not sure of what you've said, but I don't know any better.
Vivek - February 25, 2008 3:50 pm
I guess it's finally time I studied the instructions of Mahaprabhu to Sanatana Gosvami, because I am not sure of what you've said, but I don't know any better.
also there was no intention on my part to seek any confirmation for any answer.
I am sorry if it appeared so.
Vivek - February 27, 2008 12:55 am
I see clouds at sunset, blue on top and pink at the bottom, and I think of Krsna's feet, I see bumblebees, creepers hugging trees, a man with a broad chest (like Krsna), with a deep voice, a boy and a girl in love, friends being friends, cows, the sun, the moon, incarnated souls beautifying themselves, the ability in man, the intelligence in women, sharks, lions, sugar (that can't taste itself),
krsna doesnt necessarily have a broad chest like a hugely bulky person.
Syamasundara - February 27, 2008 6:26 am
krsna doesnt necessarily have a broad chest like a hugely bulky person.
O.... K... ( 
)
Swami - February 27, 2008 11:11 am
thanks for your reply; the way you conceive krsna is how I also do but I was just checking how the advanced souls do that. I just wanted to see what krsna means when he says that he devotee sees him everywhere. Like Prahlad is able to see krsna is every atom: does he see four armed visnu form in every atom or krsna's form in every atom. You are talking about being reminded about krsna whenever you see anything in the creation. I was asking whether advanced devotee see the form of krsna or visnu everywhere instead of linking things which they see to krsna.
In his commentary to 11.2.45 VCT writes, atra pasyed iti taths darsana-yogyataiva vivaksits, na tu taths darsanasya sarva-kalikats. "Here the word pasyet does not mean that at every moment one sees Krsna's form. It refers to one who has reached the elevated standard of bhakti in which one is qualified to see Krsna's form." Such a devotee's vision is one in which he or she sees everything and everyone in relation to Krsna and with the capacity to serve him. Sometimes Mahaprabhu had darsana of Krsna, but not costantly. Most of the time he saw eveything in relation to Krsna.