Tattva-viveka
Vatsalya rasa for Gaura Nitai?
Braja-sundari Dasi - March 1, 2008 6:39 pm
There was one Vaisnavi, called Pishima Goswamini who worshipped her Gaura Nitay Deities in mood of being their mother. Her life was decribed in the book "Saints of Vraja" by Dr. Kapoor. Her temple and Deities are still present in Vrindavan. This book describes her different lilas with the Deities in which also other people participated. I never knew what to think about it but it seems she did not just fabricate all these stories. How to understand this? Later her disciple continued seva but his mood was "sakhya".
I heard that is not the way we can worship Lord Gauranga. But Bhaktivinod Thakur mentiones in Jaiva dharma that there are some devotees in Goloka who participate only in Gaura-lila. Is it possible that she was following them?
Syamasundara - March 1, 2008 7:56 pm
Mahaprabhu is svayam bhagavan, and therefore rasaraja, and Nityananda Prabhu is his first expansion. Saci devi is the most natural example of vatsalya rati, or Padma (Nitai's mother). In Caitanya Bhagavata there is even an instance of Nityananda suckling Srinivasa's old wife's breast as a full grown man.
What I find more weird is the shift in rati.
Braja-sundari Dasi - March 2, 2008 4:42 pm
Mahaprabhu is svayam bhagavan, and therefore rasaraja, and Nityananda Prabhu is his first expansion. Saci devi is the most natural example of vatsalya rati, or Padma (Nitai's mother). In Caitanya Bhagavata there is even an instance of Nityananda suckling Srinivasa's old wife's breast as a full grown man.
Obviously Nityananda was behaving as a small child at that moment but I thought he was just in extasy, remembering his childhood pastimes from Vraja
Syamasundara - March 2, 2008 7:06 pm
Yes, when are these people not in ecstasy? This is the whole point about rasa tattva: it's not about what it is, but how it feels. Our scriptures seem to point us in this direction a lot, whether directly or not; reality is but drama. Our world, that we think of as so solid, is just a stage, and we are all playing roles, both before and after liberation. The earth, the cow, the queen, the guru's wife, and the midwife are in the "position" of a mother, or "feel" like it, so we are exhorted to treat and consider them just as good as our real mother, who, herself as a jiva, is also only playing the role of our mother in this lifetime of ours. Our enemy comes as a guest, and we are exhorted to treat him as such.
Going back to your point (sorry, I was in ecstasy 
) dasya in Gaura lila can unlock the door to all the other forms of rati, and it's the best attitude for a sadhaka to have with the deities, but Mahaprabhu is still the ultimate reservoir or reciprocation, so, why not serve them in vatsalya rati if it sprouts in your heart?
I am sure the whole of Saci's neighborhood was brimming with vatsalya when Visvambhara and Visvarupa were playing in her yard.
Gauranga and Nityananda are non-different from Krsna and Balarama. With Gaura Nitai we even have the bonus of srngara rasa, not toward them, but they can definitely give it. Nityananda can give us Vrndavana ans Radha-Govinda, and Gauranga is Radha-Govinda.
It's funny how I am having the reverse phenomenon. I just retrieved (well, in November) my Radha-Vrndavanacandra deities from a friend's house after 6 years of sleep, and now they are undergoing some restoration. They just got repainted and at present they are standing on my altar without receiving worship, but every time I offer puja (to a pair of GM's old shoes), I look at them and I think of Mahaprabhu!
Sometimes I look at them fast from one to the other, hoping to get a special darshan... but I just get distracted from my japa. Anyway...
Swami - March 4, 2008 3:22 pm
Mahaprabhu is svayam bhagavan, and therefore rasaraja,
But he is appearing in a particualr mood and should be worshiped accordingly. Vrndavana dasa is emphatic about this. His mood is not that of rasaraja. We must follow our parampara. Others may do otherwise. Exceptions may occur. More later.
Syamasundara - March 4, 2008 7:24 pm
That's an important aspect; I wonder how we could all overlook it.
I can't wait to hear more. Apart from Jagadananda (or Gauridas) Pandit's deities, I can't think of anybody worshiping Gaura Nitai before SP. I didn't mean that we should change the mood in our sampradaya, we don't even worship Krsna in vatsalya (asa standard), but Vrajasundari said she read about it as bona fide, and I tried to see how that could be. After all it's easier to worship Mahaprabhu in vatsalya than Varaha.
I'd also like to hear about her switch of mood towards sakhya all of a sudden.
And welcome back!!
Braja-sundari Dasi - March 4, 2008 7:48 pm
I'd also like to hear about her switch of mood towards sakhya all of a sudden.
It was her disciple who claimed to be in the mood of sakhya. He couldn`t see Deities as children but (according to what story says) Gaura nad Nitay were suffering when he treated them as adults. So then Pisima made Deities to "grow" and the mood of worship was changed but not her own sentiment.
Braja-sundari Dasi - March 4, 2008 8:21 pm
But he is appearing in a particualr mood and should be worshiped accordingly. Vrndavana dasa is emphatic about this. His mood is not that of rasaraja. We must follow our parampara. Others may do otherwise. Exceptions may occur. More later.
Thank you Guru Maharaja for appearing here.
Pisima was worshiping Deities previously worshipped by Murari Gupta that were miraculously rediscovered. Therefore it was difficult dilemma for me. From one side I know what our mood should be but from the other side- why should I doubt her story? Saints were doing so many strange things. It is difficult for me from one more point of view- Lord Caitanya nad Lord Nityananda spent their childhood separately. They were not playing together like Krishna and Balarama, so how can they have the same mother?
Prema-bhakti - March 4, 2008 8:27 pm
I am not sure what is being discussed here, that in other lineages devotees may worship Mahaprabhu in other moods besides dasya which is emphasized by the Gaudiyas who meditate on their perfected form as brahmin boys in the lila? GM has written about this with the emphasis that in Mahaprabhu lila we worship as Mahaprabhu's associates did namely the Six Goswami of Vrndavana, Krsna das Kaviraja, etc.
I always thought that other sentiments like madhurya towards Mahaprabhu such as 'Gaura Nagara bhava' were apa-siddhantic and a fabrication. Am I being too black and white here?
Syamasundara - March 4, 2008 8:42 pm
Oh, but by rasaraja I didn't mean anything that would lead to gaura nagara, just that they can give access to madhurya, whereas Narayana or Rama can't. Pretty sure about this one.
Also, you could worship Gaura Nitai as Krsna Balarama, and there would be scope for vatsalya there.
Prema-bhakti - March 4, 2008 8:47 pm
Oh, but by rasaraja I didn't mean anything that would lead to gaura nagara, just that they can give access to madhurya, whereas Narayana or Rama can't. Pretty sure about this one.Also, you could worship Gaura Nitai as Krsna Balarama, and there would be scope for vatsalya there.
Mahaprabhu's lila gives access to every sentiment yet where is the scope for us to worship Him as Radha, Krsna, or Nitai as Balarama in His acarya-lila?
Braja-sundari Dasi - March 4, 2008 9:13 pm
I am not sure what is being discussed here, that in other lineages devotees may worship Mahaprabhu in other moods besides dasya which is emphasized by the Gaudiyas who meditate on their perfected form as brahmin boys in the lila? GM has written about this with the emphasis that in Mahaprabhu lila we worship as Mahaprabhu's associates did namely the Six Goswami of Vrndavana, Krsna das Kaviraja, etc.
I do not doubt this. But I`m curious how to place Pisima Gosvamini in this regard... She was Gaudiya Vaisnavi but felt motherly affection for her Gaura Nitai deities and unless I hear from someone reliable that the story is fake I have no reason to deny it.
Prema-bhakti - March 4, 2008 9:20 pm
I do not doubt this. But I`m curious how to place Pisima Gosvamini in this regard... She was Gaudiya Vaisnavi but felt motherly affection for her Gaura Nitai deities and unless I hear from someone reliable that the story is fake I have no reason to deny it.
Well, GM did reply there were exceptions and if there is validity in this kind of worship, it would certainly be an exception. In general , we must follow the parampara.
Syamasundara - March 4, 2008 9:27 pm
Mahaprabhu's lila gives access to every sentiment yet where is the scope for us to worship Him as Radha, Krsna, or Nitai as Balarama in His acarya-lila?
Why did you specify acarya-lila? If it was for that, we'd have to worship him as a sannyasi.
All I meant is that if on Balarama's appearance day you bathe Gaura Nitai, it's ok, or similar things. Like Narottama dasa Thakura says, they are the same.
Prema-bhakti - March 4, 2008 9:32 pm
Why did you specify acarya-lila? If it was for that, we'd have to worship him as a sannyasi.All I meant is that if on Balarama's appearance day you bathe Gaura Nitai, it's ok, or similar things. Like Narottama dasa Thakura says, they are the same.
True, I meant Navadvipa lila also.
Yes, I guess I understand in that regard.
Bhrigu - March 5, 2008 11:35 am
This is what Vrindavan Das Thakur says about this topic. After describing Nimai's childhood pranks, he says (CB 1.15.28-31): In this way the Lord created mischief for everyone, but he did not even look at a woman from the corner of his eyes. It is well-known in the world that the Lord in this avatara did not even hear the word 'woman'. Therefore, great personalities do not offer prayers adressing him as 'gauranga-nagara', the enjoyer of damsels. Even though all kinds of prayers may be offered to him, thoughtful people consider his nature (svabhava)."
So to me it seems that other bhavas than dasya should be possible, just not madhurya-rati.
Vivek - March 5, 2008 2:30 pm
This is what Vrindavan Das Thakur says about this topic. After describing Nimai's childhood pranks, he says (CB 1.15.28-31): In this way the Lord created mischief for everyone, but he did not even look at a woman from the corner of his eyes. It is well-known in the world that the Lord in this avatara did not even hear the word 'woman'. Therefore, great personalities do not offer prayers adressing him as 'gauranga-nagara', the enjoyer of damsels. Even though all kinds of prayers may be offered to him, thoughtful people consider his nature (svabhava)."
So to me it seems that other bhavas than dasya should be possible, just not madhurya-rati.
But other biographies it is documented that he did joke with women when he was young though that doesn't really endorse his worship in any rasa apart from dasya.
Citta Hari Dasa - March 5, 2008 4:36 pm
Rupa and Sanatana worshipped Mahaprabhu in dasya while we all know that they are manjaris in Krsna lila. So I would think that the exceptions GM mentioned are 1) extremely rare and 2) very highly situated. Maybe Pisima Goswamini is such a soul. I personally put my money on the example of the Goswamis and in how GM has explained it--worship Mahaprabhu in dasya, and ultimately enter Krsna lila in one of the four major sthayi-bhavas.
Bhrigu - March 5, 2008 6:22 pm
But other biographies it is documented that he did joke with women when he was young though that doesn't really endorse his worship in any rasa apart from dasya.
Which biographies do you mean?
Vivek - March 5, 2008 7:42 pm
Which biographies do you mean?
There are many such incidences in His childhood life. As a naughty boy sometimes He used to tease the orthodox Brahmins who used to take bath in the Ganges. When they complained to His father the boy appeared before the father as if just coming from the School. And at the bathing Ghat he used to play jokes with the neighboring girls who were engaged in the worship of Shiva with hope of getting good husband. That is a practice amongst the unmarried girls in the Hindu family. While engaged in such worship the Lord as a naughty boy appeared before them and said "My dear sisters, please give me all the offerings you have just brought for Lord Shiva. Lord Shiva is my devotee and Parvati is my maid servant. If you worship Me the Lord Shiva and all other demigods will be more satisfied." Some of them refused to obey the naughty Lord and He would curse them that on refusal she would be married with an old man with seven children by his previous wife. The girls out of fear and sometimes out of love also would offer Him all materials and then the Lord would bless them with assurance that they would have very good young husband and that they would be mother of dozens of children. These blessings would enliven the girls but they used to complain the incidence to their respective mothers.
I don't know right now where this incident is mentioned as I am not an expert on Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's biographies and life.
Syamasundara - March 5, 2008 8:18 pm
The only biography I know of with that incident is the Caitanya Mangala, by Locana Das Thakur, who is related with gauranga nagara bhava.
Braja-sundari Dasi - March 5, 2008 8:52 pm
The only biography I know of with that incident is the Caitanya Mangala, by Locana Das Thakur, who is related with gauranga nagara bhava.
I read it few years ago but cannot remember anything about gauranga-nagara there. Could you say something more?
Prema-bhakti - March 5, 2008 8:59 pm
The only biography I know of with that incident is the Caitanya Mangala, by Locana Das Thakur, who is related with gauranga nagara bhava.
Huh?
Prema-bhakti - March 5, 2008 8:59 pm
I read it few years ago but cannot remember anything about gauranga-nagara there. Could you say something more?
Me neither.
Syamasundara - March 5, 2008 10:05 pm
Oh, I don't remember much. I bought it many years ago in Iskcon. All I remember is that the translation was awful and that I loved the contents anyway.
Later, when I joined GM, it came out that Locana das is bona fide, but there was something that was off. Either his mood was rare and not to be followed or something like that.
This has been discussed in the thread about gaura-nagara-bhava.
Vivek - March 5, 2008 10:33 pm
Yes I think that section of Chaitanya mangala is not considered bonafide by Gaudiya Math. If all these things about sastra being tampered are brought to a new devotee of Iskcon he will lose faith quite easily or become even more fanatic to protect his tender faith. Prabhupada stand generally is very strict regarding the absolute nature of sastra and he has never mentioned that sastra has been tampered. I think this has become a big difficulty in preaching as devotees are clubbed with bible literalists.
Anyway I find it hard to distinguish between preaching strategy and reality for example description of hells etc.
Prema-bhakti - March 5, 2008 10:46 pm
Oh, I don't remember much. I bought it many years ago in Iskcon. All I remember is that the translation was awful and that I loved the contents anyway.Later, when I joined GM, it came out that Locana das is bona fide, but there was something that was off. Either his mood was rare and not to be followed or something like that.
This has been discussed in the thread about gaura-nagara-bhava.
Interesting. I don't think I ever heard that before.
Atmananda Dasa - March 6, 2008 3:16 pm
Here is a quote from His Divine Grace Swami B. R. Sridhara. This can be found in the book, Encounters With Divinity pg. 108 to 111 under the heading Biographies of Mahaprabhu.
"Vrindavana Dasa is the Vyasa of caitanya-lila. Just as the original Vyasadeva wrote in detail about krsna-lila in Bhagavatam, especially the bala-lila of Krsna - similarly, the early pastimes of Mahaprabhu have been elaborately described by Vrndavana Dasa Thakura in the first half of Caitany-bhagavata.
Vrndavana Dasa Thakura was the first biographer of Mahaprabhu and the first distributor of caitanya-lila. Kaviraja Gosvami has given much respect to Vrndavana Dasa Thakura in his Caitanya-caritamrta.
ore mūḍha loka, śuna caitanya-mańgala
caitanya-mahimā yāte jānibe sakala
Kaviraja Gosvami has said, "Oh you stupid people, somehow or other, hear Caitanya-mangala of Vrndavana Dasa. Then you will be able to understand who Sri Caitanya is". He has recommended in this way. Caitanya-bhagavata was originally named Caitanya-mangala but a little after, Locanca Dasa Thakura, a disciple of Narahari Sakara Thakura of Srikanda, also wrote a book and named it Caitanya-mangala. So, Vrndavana Dasa changed the name to Caitanya-bhagvata. We have heard this conclusion from ancient reports.
Vrndavana Dasa Thakura did not describe the later pastimes of Mahaprabhu as elaborately as His earlier pastimes because that was mainly centered around Puri. He remained here in Gaudadesa and could not get much information, therefore he did not want to interfere with that. He only gave a short sketch about those pastimes. He has given a general description of the early life of Mahaprabhu, but the descriptions of the later life of Mahaprabhu and His philosophical teachings are not described so much. Caitanya-bhagavata relates to the activities of the yuga-avatara - preaching and distributing the Holy Name, more than the concept of Mahaprabhu's inner mood as Radha-Krsna combined.
Of course, Vrndavana Dasa Thakura's conception about Caitanyadeva and His lila has been given in a very emotional way, but as regards the siddhanta, the ontological aspect of Sri Caitanyadevas' teachings are not to be found in great detail there. We find the real siddhanta in Caitanya-caritamrta - the concept of Sri Caitanyadeva which is more valuable to us. In Caitanya-bhagavata, rasa may be there of some order, but no ontological aspect about Sri Caitanya has been presented there. Ontology, as well as rasa, we find in Caitanya-caritamrta and Srimad-Bhagavatam.
The philosophy of Mahaprabhu, especially in His later days, is found in Caitanya-caritamrta and it is found very authentically. With great authenticity we can rely upon Caitanya-caritamrta at every point. Every part of Caitanya-caritamrta represents Mahaprabhu completely, because the source is Rupa-Sanatana and Raghunatha. They all came in direct contact with Mahaprabhu and were inspired by Him. He empowered Rupa Gosvami to reveal, in a scientific and exhaustive way, the sastras of divine love - the love of Vrndavana. We also find that in Puri, Mahaprabhu asked Svarupa Damodara, "I have given My all to him - you also grace him. He is the fittest person to deal with this science of divine love. You can put full confidence in him." First was Rupa Gosvami, and then there was Raghunatha das Gosvami who also had direct contact with Mahaprabhu. Kaviraja Gosvami was a disciple of Raghunatha Dasa Gosvami and he came in close associtation with Rupa-Sanatana and got their blessings. So, what Kaviraja Gosvami has given is unparalleled.
Our Guru Maharaja once wrote in a letter that every part of Caitanya-caritamrta can be taken as fully bona-fide, both from the historical and ontological point of view. Caitanya-caritamrta can be accepted as on hundred percent bona-fide, whereas the position of other sastras may be modified or incomplete. Just as we accept some of the historical elements in Bhakti-ratnakara but not the ontological aspects. Then there is another book, Caitany-mangala which is a little sentimental, so much so that is leans towards the gaura-nagari misconception. So, books such as Caitanya-mangala are not so desireable. Caitanya-bhagavata is reliable and is in suddha-bhakti, but we consider it as of a primary order compared to Caitanya-caritamrta.
The Caitanya-caritamrta, the gift of Kaviraja Gosvami, is the highest wealth of the sampradaya. Whatever we may think, it is our highest capital. So, just as Vrindavana Dasa Thakura is considered to be the Vyasa of gaura-lila, Kaviraja Gosvami is the Sukadeva of gaura-lila."
I
Braja-sundari Dasi - March 6, 2008 4:07 pm
Our Guru Maharaja once wrote in a letter that every part of Caitanya-caritamrta can be taken as fully bona-fide, both from the historical and ontological point of view. Caitanya-caritamrta can be accepted as on hundred percent bona-fide, whereas the position of other sastras may be modified or incomplete. Just as we accept some of the historical elements in Bhakti-ratnakara but not the ontological aspects. Then there is another book, Caitany-mangala which is a little sentimental, so much so that is leans towards the gaura-nagari misconception. So, books such as Caitanya-mangala are not so desireable. Caitanya-bhagavata is reliable and is in suddha-bhakti, but we consider it as of a primary order compared to Caitanya-caritamrta.
Where is this gaura-nagari misconception in Caitanya Mangala? And is it really there or is just interpreted in this way?
Bhrigu - March 6, 2008 6:06 pm
Locan Das Thakur (and some others in the same group) is kind of problematic person within our sampradaya. On the other hand, we respect him as a great devotee who wrote many nice songs (my favourite is perhaps "parama koruna"), on the other hand he has written some purely Gauranga-nagara stuff, for example the songbook Dhamali. The CM is somewhere in between. I have also heard that our version (via the Gaudiya Math) has been somewhat censored. There are basically two solutions offered to this dilemma: 1) The Nadiya-nagari-stuff is interpolated into his texts by later authors, or 2) this is his own mood, something that cannot be imitated.
It seems that already during the time of Vrindavan Dasa, there were differing viewpoints with the Caitanya Vaishnava community of Bengal. Most of them were eventually harmonised under the umbrella of the theology of the Goswamis. Still, there is quite a bit of variety out there, and perhaps it is best whenever we come in contact with "strange things" such as the story Vrajasundari referred to, just respect them from a distance.
Braja-sundari Dasi - March 6, 2008 8:02 pm
Locan Das Thakur (and some others in the same group) is kind of problematic person within our sampradaya. On the other hand, we respect him as a great devotee who wrote many nice songs (my favourite is perhaps "parama koruna"), on the other hand he has written some purely Gauranga-nagara stuff, for example the songbook Dhamali.
I read the book sometime ago but I remeber I liked it more than Caitanya Bhagavata I had no idea that there maybe something wrong with it. Which parts are affected by gauranga-nagara mood?
It seems that already during the time of Vrindavan Dasa, there were differing viewpoints with the Caitanya Vaishnava community of Bengal. Most of them were eventually harmonised under the umbrella of the theology of the Goswamis. Still, there is quite a bit of variety out there, and perhaps it is best whenever we come in contact with "strange things" such as the story Vrajasundari referred to, just respect them from a distance.
I`m not familiar with all these things but I feel it would good to know about them.
Zvonimir Tosic - March 6, 2008 9:44 pm
Still, there is quite a bit of variety out there, and perhaps it is best whenever we come in contact with "strange things" such as the story Vrajasundari referred to, just respect them from a distance.
Maybe that's the good example on how Bhagavan cannot be measured by any ruler, or foreshortened within strict laws of any perspective, including our favourite one.
People fall short in their comprehension because of the lack of good practice, and lack of understanding of all the nuances in the composition of the foreshortened image of Godhead. In other words, sometimes the pure mathematics of the perspective must be ignored slightly for image to accommodate finer aesthetical appearance.
For example, the perfect square is never perfect in our eyes: in order to appear visually perfect, it has to be shortened few percents vertically. The ratio between its height and width is never 1:1, but more like 1:0.94.
Someone can say the height of the rectangle must be shortened in order to achieve the balance. But someone may say rectangle has to be enlarged few percents horizontally. Although the result is same, our approach reflects our individual comprehension of things.
So we have to understand our own philosophy enough to be open for nuances that propose finer aesthetics, greater beauty, because that is more important than obeying the pure mathematics of it.
To paraphrase the legendary maestro Segovia, who once said, "Nuance in the rhythm is a result of a delicate lack of respect for the rhythm, and by this lack of respect we may define the good artist and the bad artist."
Swami - March 7, 2008 1:42 am
There are many such incidences in His childhood life.
"Childhood" is the key word here. One can find such descriptions in all of the biographies, including CB. So from this one can understand that Vrndavana das is not speaking about children's play, but rather intimacy with women on the part of one of age.
Swami - March 7, 2008 1:47 am
Maybe that's the good example on how Bhagavan cannot be measured by any ruler, or foreshortened within strict laws of any perspective, including our favourite one.
People fall short in their comprehension because of the lack of good practice, and lack of understanding of all the nuances in the composition of the foreshortened image of Godhead.
In other words, sometimes the pure mathematics of the perspective must be ignored slightly for image to accommodate finer aesthetical appearance.
So we have to understand our own philosophy enough to be open for nuances that propose finer aesthetics, greater beauty, because that is more important than obeying the pure mathematics of it.
To paraphrase the legendary maestro Segovia, who once said, "Nuance in the rhythm is a result of a delicate lack of respect for the rhythm, and by this lack of respect we may define the good artist and the bad artist."
Better learn the math then so that you can differntiate approoriate nuances from bad arithmatic.
Swami - March 7, 2008 1:51 am
Thank you Atmanada and Bhrigu for citing referneces (sadhu/sastra). There should be more of this on tatva-viveka.
Let's then go to the definitive biography. The venerable Krsnadasa kaviraja writes
yasoda-nandana haila sacira nandana
catur-vidha bhakta-bhava kare asvadana
“He who appeared as the son of mother Yasoda has now appeared as the son of mother Saci relishing four kinds of bhavas (dasya, sakhya, vatsalya, madhurya).”
However, he goes on to qualify the unique way in which Mahaprabhu tastes conjugal love. Krsnadasa kaviraja writes,
sva-madhurya radha-prema-rasa avadite
radha-bhava angi kariyahe bhala-mate
“To taste his own sweetness (madhurya) and the prema rasa of Radha, he accepted the bhava of Radha.”
gopi-bhava yate prabhu dhariache ekanta
vrajendra-nandane mane apanara kanta
“Mahaprabhu accepted the bhava of the gopis, who accept Vrajendranandana as their lover.
gopika-bhavera ei sudrdha niscaya
vrajendra-nandana vina anyatra na haya
“Be certain that the ecstatic mood of the gopis is possible only before Vrajendranandana, and no one else.”
How then does this person Vrajendranandana look? He does not have a golden form, but rather,
syamasundara, sikhipiccha-gunja-vibhusana
gopa-vesa, tri-bhaigima, murali-vadana
“He complexion is syama. He wears a peacock feather on His head, a gunja garland and the decorations of a cowherd boy. His body is curved in three places, and he holds a flute to His mouth.”
iha chadi krsna yadi haya anyakara
gopikara bhava nahi yaya nikata tahara
“If Krsna gives up this original form and assumes another form [such as that of Gaura], nearness to him cannot invoke the ecstatic mood of the gopis.”
Now, while we know that Mahaprabhu did not have extramarital lovers and thus did not taste parakiya or gopi-bhava in the position of the visaya alambhana (object of love), as does Vrajendranandana Krsna, we know that he did taste vatsalya bhava from this vantage point with Saci, etc. He also tasted sakhya with Prabhu Nityananda. He also tasted an dasya tinged with sakhya from many devotees, such as Sri Rupa and Sanatana, etc.., and herein lies our opening.
As others have pointed out, it is the Gowamis and Bhaktivinode Thakura whom we follow. Thus we know how to worship Mahaprabhu because they have taught us this through their writing and their personal example. Gaura is our acarya, our master and dearmost friend, friend of the fallen.
Furthermore, we know of no one—no lineage—that teaches how to worship Mahaprabhu in any other mood than that of dasya, other than the nagara bhava sects that have been rejected by the most holy Vrndavana dasa and Krsna dasa Kaviraja.. Thus although Mahaprabu tasted other sentiments than dasya, it is clear that as the object of love it is dasya/sakhya bhava that he tastes with sadhana siddhas. This is the window into his lila that the guru paramapra has presented us with. Go through it now.
As for examples like that of Pisima Goswamini, we do not know enough about her—her parampara, the difference between myth and reality surrounding her, etc.—to make a definitive statement. There are many such stories out and about, many of them in Dr. Kapoors’ books. Although we respect Dr. Kapoor, his affiliations after the disappearance of his Gurudeva, Sri Bhaktisiddhnata Sarasawati Thakura, give us reason to pause with regard to his position on various topics.
Zvonimir Tosic - March 7, 2008 2:16 am
Better learn the math then so that you can differntiate approoriate nuances from bad arithmatic.
Thank you, and I agree.
When faced with doubts like this one above, I try not to reject them immediately. If they don't fit my understanding of the perspective and the mathematics I know, I then try to understand why I don't understand them. I start exploring shortcomings in my vision, and not dismissing the doubts. Expanding the rectangle. I find that to be very rewarding, really inspiring. Thus I'm full of doubts and I like them.
Thank you again. It's lovely to hear from you.
Syamasundara - March 7, 2008 6:36 am
Thank you Atmanada and Bhrigu for citing referneces (sadhu/sastra). There should be more of this on tatva-viveka.
Big eye-opener. I for one will try to limit my interventions unless I can find the time to make a research and come up with references. Anything short of that will just be a nuisance, create confusion, waste of time, and feed the underground vermin of pratistha.
Zvonimir Tosic - March 7, 2008 8:40 am
Big eye-opener. I for one will try to limit my interventions unless I can find the time to make a research and come up with references. Anything short of that ...
Search routines on TV are rather very rudimentary, Google doesn't index it and there are hundreds of threads, spanning through several years. Thus you shouldn't feel guilty for enquiring in your own way. I find your posts to be as informative and interesting as many others and they open eyes too.
Ys,
Braja-sundari Dasi - March 7, 2008 4:43 pm
I just found that Locana dasa Thakura`s Caitanya Mangala was based on diary of Murari Gupta. How about his diary? Is it still available? And is it free from gauranga-nagara things?
Syamasundara - March 7, 2008 5:00 pm
It's true, the search on TV is a pain in the neck, a point worth reiterating. However, the references being talked about are to actual sastras.
More than feeling guilty, I am just trying to take my guru's words to heart. I didn't mean to say that my words on TV so far were of no value, but I did walk on thin ice a couple of times, even if just for the purpose of helping someone understand something, but what kind of help is that anyway?
To talk so much like I do without the backup of sastra will bring about the consequences I mentioned before.
We should be happy to be parrots. Suka means parrot, and he was no stupid person, he rather made the Bhagavata fruit better with his beak, and just to show some good will, here is a reference:
nigama-kalpa-taror galitam phalam
suka-mukhad amrta-drava-samyutam
pibata bhagavatam rasam alayam
muhur aho rasika bhuvi bhavukah
O expert and thoughtful men, relish Srimad-Bhagavatam, the mature fruit of the desire tree of Vedic leterature. It emanated from thej lips of Sri Sukadeva Gosvami. Therefore this fruit has become even more tasteful, although its nectarean juice was already relishable for all, including liberated souls. --Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.1.2 .
Plus, it's always a good practice to take the guru's words as always addressed to ourselves. Sometimes he'd be talking about mayavadis or what have ya, and I'd be blushing during class. At least in three occasions, though, he instructed me indirectly during class, and I'd feel so honored that he'd take the time; plus it's the best way, so I don't get to reply or justify or whatever, and everybody else will benefit from the instruction. Then I wonder, what if I was dull and didn't get it? Isn't it risky for him to speak so vaguely and indirectly? Well, he doesn't risk much, it's more like my advancement will suffer.
So, anyway, in general the safest is to take his words to heart and personally every time. If we exercise our sincerity, we can always find some application of those words.
guru-mukha-padma-vakya, cittete kariya akya
Swami - March 7, 2008 5:58 pm
Syama
You have understood my point well.
Swami
Swami - March 7, 2008 6:01 pm
I just found that Locana dasa Thakura`s Caitanya Mangala was based on diary of Murari Gupta. How about his diary? Is it still available? And is it free from gauranga-nagara things?
It is likely that any modern English edition of Caitanya Mangala does not have Gaura nagara bhava sentiments in it, having been edited out. Gaura Nagara bhava is not found in Murari's writing. If not, they should be obvious. Use your intelligence. If you know what the so called Gaura agara bhava is, then you will recognize it when you come in contact with it. Simple.
Bhrigu - March 7, 2008 6:15 pm
I just found that Locana dasa Thakura`s Caitanya Mangala was based on diary of Murari Gupta. How about his diary? Is it still available? And is it free from gauranga-nagara things?
It is not a diary but a Sanskrit book, called Caitanya-carita. I think I have posted about it earlier here on TV. It is available, even in English translation (published by Rasbihari Lal), though I strongly the last chapters have been added by later authors. But yes, there is no gauranga-nagara stuff in it.
Swami - March 7, 2008 6:35 pm
What will be the loss if one only reads Caitanya Caritamrta and Caitanya Bhagavata? Cc is so deep and rich that after reading it for 35 years, giving class on it, etc. it remains fresh and full of new insight with every reading. This book should be studied in depth. As Pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja has said it represents the Goswami's realization of Mahaprabhu, his life and siska.
At any rate it should be clear that Cc is the final word, and wahtever departure from it is found elsewhere is to be viewed accordingly. Thank you again, Atmananda, for provinding our readers with the words of Pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja in this regard.
Braja-sundari Dasi - March 7, 2008 7:10 pm
It is likely that any modern English edition of Caitanya Mangala does not have Gaura nagara bhava sentiments in it, having been edited out. Gaura Nagara bhava is not found in Murari's writing. If not, they should be obvious. Use your intelligence. If you know what the so called Gaura agara bhava is, then you will recognize it when you come in contact with it. Simple.
So it seems that I have read edited version. It was Mahaniddhi Maharaja translation.
Swami - March 8, 2008 7:55 pm
In honor of Vatsalya Gaura-bhakti:
koti-rupe koti-mukhe vede yadi kaya
tabu e-donhara bhagyera nahi samuccaya
saci-jagannätha-paye rahu namaskara
ananta-brahmända-natha putra rupe yanra
“If the Vedas chanted the glories of this couple with millions of mouths, in millions of ways, still they could not reach the limit of their good fortune. Let me offer my respectful obeisances unto the feet of Sacidevi and Jagannatha Misra, whose son is the Lord of innumerable universes.”