Tattva-viveka
A society free from sin
Bhrigu - March 13, 2008 9:45 pm
Dear devotees,
I recently read an article in the newest issue of the Gaudiya (March 2008) by Sripad B.S. Narayan Maharaja that I thought might provoke some discussion. The topic of the article (running over several issues of the magazine) is "Realistic Ideal Human Society" and is a kind of basic presentation of how nice everything would be if society was fully Krishna conscious. At any rate, Maharaja made the point that bhakti has three stages, each with its own specific symptoms. The very first symptom of sadhana bhakti is kleshagni, that it removes all suffering. Suffering is threefold, Maharaja continues, sin, the root of sin and nescience. "During the first stage of sadhana bhakti, awareness of one's real self as the eternal servant of the Supreme Lord is generated, which consequently roots out nescience, the root of sin and all the sinful nature. [...] Therefore, a beginner of devotion becomes free from all the inclinations to commit any type of sin."
Now this sounds nice, but why don't we see this happening in devotee societies? Is Rupa Goswami wrong about sadhana bhakti being kleshagni?
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - March 13, 2008 10:03 pm
Academic knowledge and realized knowledge are two different things. Understanding that you are eternal servant is pretty heavy and acting on that knowledge is even heavier. Deep contemplation and realization is lacking thus nescience is not removed.
Babhru Das - March 13, 2008 10:19 pm
Maharaja made the point that bhakti has three stages, each with its own specific symptoms. The very first symptom of sadhana bhakti is kleshagni, that it removes all suffering. Suffering is threefold, Maharaja continues, sin, the root of sin and nescience. "During the first stage of sadhana bhakti, awareness of one's real self as the eternal servant of the Supreme Lord is generated, which consequently roots out nescience, the root of sin and all the sinful nature. [...] Therefore, a beginner of devotion becomes free from all the inclinations to commit any type of sin."
Now this sounds nice, but why don't we see this happening in devotee societies? Is Rupa Goswami wrong about sadhana bhakti being kleshagni?
Before considering the question, I find myself wondering about his sources. I don't think Rupa Goswami is wrong about sadhana bhakti being kleshaghni; my understanding is that devotional service has six general characteristics, the first of which is kleshagni--relief from material distress. And, although I don't have my books with me (they're all at Audarya), my memory is that he's addressing pure devotional service. I'm willing to be shown to be mistaken, but that's how I remember it from the discussions I've conducted in East Hawaii and at Audarya.
My memory is feeding my mind from some back corner. If I remember correctly, the six general characteristics, of which kleshaghni is the first, describe uttama bhakti. And this list is given in the first chapter of BRS, which is a general discussion of uttama bhakti, and the discussion of sadhana bhakti is the second chapter of BRS.
I'm not familiar with this B. S. Narayana Maharaja. With whom is he associated?
Vivek - March 13, 2008 10:49 pm
It certainly addresses pure devotional service like babhru pointed out. anyway pure devotees are just too rare anyway.
Prema-bhakti - March 13, 2008 11:10 pm
Before considering the question, I find myself wondering about his sources. I don't think Rupa Goswami is wrong about sadhana bhakti being kleshaghni; my understanding is that devotional service has six general characteristics, the first of which is kleshagni--relief from material distress. And, although I don't have my books with me (they're all at Audarya), my memory is that he's addressing pure devotional service. I'm willing to be shown to be mistaken, but that's how I remember it from the discussions I've conducted in East Hawaii and at Audarya.
My memory is feeding my mind from some back corner. If I remember correctly, the six general characteristics, of which kleshaghni is the first, describe uttama bhakti. And this list is given in the first chapter of BRS, which is a general discussion of uttama bhakti, and the discussion of sadhana bhakti is the second chapter of BRS.
I'm not familiar with this B. S. Narayana Maharaja. With whom is he associated?
Yes, it is discussed in the Eastern Ocean first wave, characteristics of samanya bhakti. Samanya bhakti as I have understood it is refering to bhakti in general. Devotional service relieves all distress and is the best process to do so because it can counteract all three causes of distress, papam, bijam, and avidya. Jiva Goswami comments that this discussion of klesaghni is to demonstrate bhakti's supreme position and unique characteristics.
The examples given in BRS for destroying aparabdha karma are SB 11.14.19:
Just as a blazing fire, used for cooking and other purposes, turns wood sticks to ashes, so bhakti directed to me, in the form of actions such as hearing about me, somehow or other, burns up all sins which will be committed.
Example of destroying parabhdha karma:
SB 3.33.6
To say nothing of the spiritual advancement of persons who see the Supreme Person face to face, even a person born in a family of dog-eaters immediately becomes eligible to perform Vedic sacrifices if he once utters the holy name of the SPOG or chants about him, hears about his pastimes, offers him obeisances, or even remembers him.
Prema-bhakti - March 13, 2008 11:33 pm
Now this sounds nice, but why don't we see this happening in devotee societies? Is Rupa Goswami wrong about sadhana bhakti being kleshagni?
The fact is from what I understood from BRS it is happening some how or other. 
Swami - March 13, 2008 11:51 pm
suddha-bhakti has three forms: sadhana, bhava, and prema bhakti. When one reaches anartha nivriti and nistha in sadhana-bhakti, the informed eye can see tangible progress in terms of the the destruction of ignorance (avidya) and that which it fosters in the way of suffering. Suffering is a product of attachment/ignorance. Although devotees may undergo physical or mental suffering, in reality they suffer only in as much as they are attached to impermanence and unattached to bhakti.
So first attain nistha, then talk about kleshagni. Sadhana bhakti does not end in anistha bhajana kriya, and the full affects of sadhana-bhakti will be realized as one's sadhana matures. Move on, now. The end of all suffering (in nistha/kleshagni) and beginning of auspiciousness (in ruci/subadha)) await you on the other side of anartha nivriti.
Swami - March 14, 2008 1:51 pm
This is an important topic that I feel a good number of you do not understad as evidenced from some fo the replies thus far. Please read the following for further discussion.
Ignorance (avidya) and that which arises out of it is what the Goswamis refer to as klesha (suffering). It is fourfold and includes all stages of karma from unmanifest (aprarabdha) to manifest (prarabdha). The fourfold effects of avidya are,
Asmita—false ego; the bodily identification of I and mine; and to accept only direct sense perception as real.
Raga—attachment; the desire for material happiness and those means which will give it.
Dvesa—hatred; the repulsion to unhappiness or the causes of unhappiness.
Abhinivesa—absorption in the body as the basis for sense gratification and fear of death.
Ignorance creates the tendency in one to act either piously or impiously, which in turn produces good and bad karma resulting in material happiness and distress respectively. This ignorance and that which follows it is uprooted by the culture (krsnanusilanam) of uttama-bhakti in the stage of sadhana.
That which is endured in the course of loving service to Bhagavan that may appear to the uniformed as suffering is not perceived as such by the devotee engaged in the labor of love. Thus we see great devotees undergo what appears to be suffering, but this has not arisen from ignorance and is thus part of the territory of bhakti. The devotee does not look for freedom from distress as the the ignorant do. The advanced sadhaka is free from dvesa, or aversion to distress and its causes. If in the course of serving he or she endures suffering, this is another thing. Such apparent suffering has not arisen from ignorance and it is not a karmic result. Again, it is part of the territory of serving Bhagavan in this world. The sadhaka only wants to serve, and if doing so means that he or she has to suffer, so be it.
Thus it may be misleading to tell people that sadhana bhakti removes all suffering without explaining what the Goswamis are referring to when they speak of kleshaghni. Again, many great devotees have had to undergo what appears to be suffering. Thus an explanation is required lest people wonder why they do not see devotees becoming free from suffering, or much worse, misunderstand bhakti to be a means to further one’s ignorance in the form of cultivating dvesa (aversion to suffering).
Babhru Das - March 14, 2008 2:14 pm
Thanks for clarifying this further. What I meant to write yesterday was that I didn't think Rupa Goswami was wrong in saying that sadhana bhakti is kleshaghni, but that B. S. Narayana Maharaja was mistaken in doing so. (I guess I was in a bit of a hurry, and my mind was racing to pull out some references from memory.) What Srila Rupa says is that uttama bhakti which delivers the bhakta from all material distress, as described in Swami's post. (Can't wait to get back together with my books and the Audarya-vasis!)
Vivek - March 14, 2008 2:33 pm
This is an important topic that I feel a good number of you do not understad as evidenced from some fo the replies thus far. Please read the following for further discussion.Ignorance (avidya) and that which arises out of it is what the Goswamis refer to as klesha (suffering). It is fourfold and includes all stages of karma from unmanifest (aprarabdha) to manifest (prarabdha). The fourfold effects of avidya are,
Asmita—false ego; the bodily identification of I and mine; and to accept only direct sense perception as real.
Raga—attachment; the desire for material happiness and those means which will give it.
Dvesa—hatred; the repulsion to unhappiness or the causes of unhappiness.
Abhinivesa—absorption in the body as the basis for sense gratification and fear of death.
Ignorance creates the tendency in one to act either piously or impiously, which in turn produces good and bad karma resulting in material happiness and distress respectively. This ignorance and that which follows it is uprooted by the culture (krsnanusilanam) of uttama-bhakti in the stage of sadhana.
That which is endured in the course of loving service to Bhagavan that may appear to the uniformed as suffering is not perceived as such by the devotee engaged in the labor of love. Thus we see great devotees undergo what appears to be suffering, but this has not arisen from ignorance and is thus part of the territory of bhakti. The devotee does not look for freedom from distress as the the ignorant do. The advanced sadhaka is free from dvesa, or aversion to distress and its causes. If in the course of serving he or she endures suffering, this is another thing. Such apparent suffering has not arisen from ignorance and it is not a karmic result. Again, it is part of the territory of serving Bhagavan in this world. The sadhaka only wants to serve, and if doing so means that he or she has to suffer, so be it.
Thus it may be misleading to tell people that sadhana bhakti removes all suffering without explaining what the Goswamis are referring to when they speak of kleshaghni. Again, many great devotees have had to undergo what appears to be suffering. Thus an explanation is required lest people wonder why they do not see devotees becoming free from suffering, or much worse, misunderstand bhakti to be a means to further one’s ignorance in the form of cultivating dvesa (aversion to suffering).
Thank you Maharaja for your answer. It is very obvious there are very few devotees who are in the stage of nistha and most people have the motivation of liberation tied to sadhana. Though BVT says that sadhaka lives only to cultivate priti or love, this point is not used in preaching as it appears too depressing to people. But only because of this very point I had chosen bhakti over jnana marga because all tinges of selfishness are to be forgotten in bhakti and everything has to be endured as a burden of love.
Prema-bhakti - March 14, 2008 2:34 pm
I am a bit confused about the use of the term uttama-bhakti in some of the posts and in the context of this discussion.
GM wrote in his first post about suddha bhakti and how it manifests in three forms sadhana, bhava, and prema. In his last post GM makes the connection between uttama-bhakti in the stage of sadhana and its uprooting of ignorance.
Are these terms synonymous or is there a subtle difference I am not getting?
Swami - March 14, 2008 3:00 pm
I am a bit confused about the use of the term uttama-bhakti in some of the posts and in the context of this discussion.
GM wrote in his first post about suddha bhakti and how it manifests in three forms sadhana, bhava, and prema. In his last post GM makes the connection between uttama-bhakti in the stage of sadhana and its uprooting of ignorance.
Are these terms synonymous or is there a subtle difference I am not getting?
The uttama-bhakti that Sri Rupa explains has three stages, sadhana, bhava, and prema. So sadhakas cultivate uttma-bhakti, not misra- bhakti, in the stage of sadhana. Yes, there is uttama-sadhana-bhakti.
Bhrigu - March 14, 2008 7:32 pm
Great to see what good discussion my posting has created! And thank your for your profound point about dvesha and suffering, Guru Maharaja. That is indeed an important one, worth thinking deeply about.
Babhruji: I don't know anything about B.S. Narayana Maharaj apart from that he apparently has written a book called "Noble Human values". He is probably based in the Chennai Gaudiya Math, established by Bon & Shridhar Maharajas, since they are the ones publishing "The Gaudiya" (since 50 years already!). It mostly serialises old material (BSST, BV Tirtha Maharaj, etc), but they also have some new stuff and sometimes interesting articles. And at 5rs an issue you can't demand too much! :-)
Premabhaktiji: As far as I have understood, uttama-bhakti and shuddha-bhakti are synonyms in BRS.
Prema-bhakti - March 14, 2008 8:24 pm
Yes, there is uttama-sadhana-bhakti.
which corresponds with the stages of ruci and asakti manifesting?
Swami - March 14, 2008 10:50 pm
which corresponds with the stages of ruci and asakti manifesting?
No, all stages of sadhana. We are teaching how to do the sadhana that corresponds with uttama bhakti, the highest kind of bhakti or suddha bhakti, pure bhakti. We are not teaching how to do sadhana of misra-bhakti. If your ideal is bhakti constituted of favorable service to Sri Krsna that is unencumbered by jnana and karma, etc. and you want to cultivate that, you engage in the kind of sadhana bhakti outlined by Sri Rupa. As this sadhana bhakti matures and enters the stage of nistha, the fact that this uttama bhakti is characterized by kleshaghni becomes apparent. As one advances further to ruci the fact that it is also characterized by subadha (auspiciousness) becomes apparent. When this same culture of bhakti develops into bhava bhakti, two more of it characteristics manifest (its rarity and how it belittles moksa). When the same bhakti develops into prema, two more of its six characteristics manifest (its ability to attract Krsna and its concentrated bliss). I have written about this in my siksastakam commentary. Note; nistha involves paying close attention. That is what you have to do to attain this stage. Pay attention. No too much to ask considering the subject.
Syamasundara - March 14, 2008 10:58 pm
Interesting. I also wasn't associating sadhana with uttama bhakti.
Swami - March 14, 2008 11:37 pm
Interesting. I also wasn't associating sadhana with uttama bhakti.
Yes, there are six characteristics to uttama bhakti. They manifest progressively as bhakti matures through three stages, sadhana, bhava and prema bhakti.
Zvonimir Tosic - March 15, 2008 5:00 am
Academic knowledge and realized knowledge are two different things...
In Plato's time, akademia was a school of higher learning. It was built at the sanctuary of Athena, the goddess of wisdom. Realised knowledge is what that school is about. And it's higher knowledge by its nature too, not taught somewhere else. Only finest teachers and philosophers were teaching there.
So maybe we can rephrase our everyday slang used in Krishna Consciousness about academic knowledge, which is not correct. In fact, it's belittling. Even if we say "theoretical and practical knowledge", the meaning of it can be misleading too, because in many instances theoretical knowledge is realised too, and leads to wonderful practical applications.
PS. It's about time we upgrade the language support of the TV code page, so we can quote Greek and insert Sanskrit transliteration characters. Or move towards higher academic standards. Pity we discuss about so many fine ideas and sublime knowledge, yet using very crude and inadequate means of communication. It's quite barbaric. 
Syamasundara - March 15, 2008 9:52 am
So maybe we can rephrase our everyday slang used in Krishna Consciousness about academic knowledge, which is not correct.
That's not slang in Krsna Consciousness, that's the current use of the term, just like "decadent" and "romantic" mean something totally different nowadays.
This is from the Merriam Webster:
Academic
.1 a: of, relating to, or associated with an academy or school especially of higher learning b: of or relating to performance in academic courses <academic excellence> c: very learned but inexperienced in practical matters <academic thinkers> d: based on formal study especially at an institution of higher learning2: of or relating to literary or artistic rather than technical or professional studies3 a: theoretical, speculative <an academic question> b: having no practical or useful significance4: conforming to the traditions or rules of a school (as of literature or art) or an official academy : conventional <academic painting>