Tattva-viveka

Some verses related to understanding Vedanta-sutra

Babhru Das - March 27, 2008 4:34 pm

These are two verses Maharaja read yesterday morning from Cc. Madhya-lila, Ch. 25. His morning Chaitanya-charitamrita readings are connected with the evening Bhagavatam discussions showing how the Bhagavat is, as Mahaprabhu says, the natural commentary on Vedanta-sutra. I told the Audarya-vasis I would post these to help with our study of the subject.

The first verse was verse 31, which is found in the Bhagavatam in Brahma's prayers to Lord Krishna (10.14.4):

sreyah-srtim bhaktim udasya te vibho

klisyanti ye kevala-bodha-labdhaye

tesam asau klesala eva sisyate

nanyad yatha sthula-tusavaghatinam

sreyah-srtim -- the auspicious path of liberation; bhaktim -- devotional service; udasya -- giving up; te -- of You; vibho -- O my Lord; klisyanti -- accept increased difficulties; ye -- all those persons who; kevala -- only; bodha-labdhaye -- for obtaining knowledge; tesam -- for them; asau -- that; klesalah -- trouble; eva -- only; sisyate -- remains; na -- not; anyat -- anything else; yatha -- as much as; sthula -- bulky; tusa -- husks of rice; avaghatinam -- of those beating.

"‘My dear Lord, devotional service unto You is the only auspicious path. If one gives it up simply for speculative knowledge or the understanding that these living beings are spirit souls and the material world is false, he undergoes a great deal of trouble. He only gains troublesome and inauspicious activities. His actions are like beating a husk that is already devoid of rice. His labor becomes fruitless.'

The second verse is v. 32, which quotes the prayers by the devas to the Lord in Devaki's womb (10.2.32):

ye ‘nye ‘ravindaksa vimukta-maninas

tvayy asta-bhavad avisuddha-buddhayah

aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah

patanty adho ‘nadrta-yusmad-anghrayah

ye -- all those who; anye -- others (nondevotees); aravinda-aksa -- O lotus-eyed one; vimukta-maninah -- who consider themselves liberated; tvayi -- unto You; asta-bhavat -- without devotion; avisuddha-buddhayah -- whose intelligence is not purified; aruhya -- having ascended; krcchrena -- by severe austerities and penances; param padam -- to the supreme position; tatah -- from there; patanti -- fall; adhah -- down; anadrta -- without respecting; yusmat -- Your; anghrayah -- lotus feet.

"‘O lotus-eyed one, those who think they are liberated in this life but who are devoid of devotional service to You are of impure intelligence. Although they accept severe austerities and penances and rise to the spiritual position, to impersonal Brahman realization, they fall down again because they neglect to worship Your lotus feet.'

Swami - March 27, 2008 5:06 pm

The second verse is v. 32, which quotes the prayers by the devas to the Lord in Devaki's womb (10.2.32):

ye ‘nye ‘ravindaksa vimukta-maninas

tvayy asta-bhavad avisuddha-buddhayah

aruhya krcchrena param padam tatah

patanty adho ‘nadrta-yusmad-anghrayah

Note that this verse is often thought to say that jivas liberated in Brahman fall down from there. However, one cannot attain Brahman without bhakti, and this verse speaks of those devoid of bhakti. At best it speaks of the jivan-mukta who has not attained final release.

Syamasundara - March 27, 2008 5:32 pm

If someone gets to the point of being a jivanmukta in that body, what are the chances he or she develops a devotional attitude before attaining, and in order to attain Brahman? And what if his or her body comes apart? Will they be reborn brahman-realized, but unless and until they develop bhakti they won't attain Brahman? And if at that level one performs some sort of devotional activity, aren't they pure enough to see the superiority of it, like the 4 Kumaras? At that point, why would they even (want to) attain Brahman?

Madan Gopal Das - March 27, 2008 8:19 pm

I told the Audarya-vasis I would post these to help with our study of the subject.

Thanks for posting these Babhru prabhu. Hope you are feeling better, and dealing with your knee okay.

I was present for a couple of the classes Guru Maharaj gave after the festival and I was going to ask if one of the Audarya monks could post something like this; verses discussed or short notes so that we could all continue to follow along. Pretty please?

Interesting question Shyam. GM made the point in this class that when acarya's speak of falldown from mukti, it is jivan mukti. There is no fall from videha mukti. I asked GM for further clarification and he quoted Gita - yad gatva na nivartante; and although we usually think of this as once having attained krsna's abode one never returns, he expanded the idea to include all aspects of liberation from material existence. He then quoted brahmeti, paramatmeti, bhagavan eti sabhyate. People view the absolute differently, so in the same way, the jnani attains his particular gatva - brahman, never to return. :Nail Biting: YIKES! This is why moksa is so distasteful to the bhaktas. GM said it is like erasing one's svarupa - krsnera nitya dasa.

Madan Gopal Das - March 27, 2008 8:40 pm

This discussion made me think of some other verses:

Prabodhānanda Sarasvatī says mukti is like hell for the bhakta: kaivalyaṁ narakāyate

Bilvamangala Thakur says of mukti's subordination to bhakti - muktiḥ svayaṁ mukulitāñjali sevate 'smāt. "Mukti herself is standing with folded hands, waiting to serve the devotee." (Kṛṣṇa-karṇāmṛta 107)

Atmananda Dasa - March 27, 2008 10:03 pm

Can you post the verses of Vedanta Sutra which are related to the verses that are posted?

Madan Gopal Das - March 27, 2008 10:44 pm

Everything posted so far has been in relation to the first sutra:

athāto brahma-jijñāsā

atha—now; atah—therefore; brahma—about Brahman; jijñāsa—there should be inquiry.

Now, therefore, one should inquire about Brahman.

I believe on Tuesday night GM started to speak on the second sutra:

janmādy asya yataḥ

janma—birth; ādi—beginning with; asya—of that; yataḥ—from whom.

Brahman is He from whom everything emanates.

Atmananda Dasa - March 28, 2008 1:23 am

One cannot fall down from videha mukti, but can one be elevated to Vaikutha from that position. I have heard that Lord Siva goes through the Brahmajyoti performing kirtan, giving the chance for those souls to be elevated to Vaikuntha. Unfortunately, I don't know the reference. Is there any authenticity to this idea?

Atmananda Dasa - March 28, 2008 1:35 am

Bhagavad-Gita commentary by Swami B. V. Tripurari

Ch.7 Text 17

"Jivanmuktas are of two types, those in the jnana-marga and those in the bhakti-marg. Those on the path of knowledge attain the jivanmukta status and await the expiration of their manifest karma to enter ultimate reality in unembodied liberation (videha-mukti). Jivanmuktas on the path of devotion, on the other hand, are free from all manifest karma, their bodies having been taken over by Krsna's primary sakti in order that they may do his bidding in the this world. He in this verse who is very dear to Krsna is a jivanmukta from the path of knowledge who takes to bhakti. This person reminds us of the progression described in the first six chapters, where through karma-yoga the inner wisdom of jnana develops and one is thus eligible to enter into bhakti proper."

Swami - March 28, 2008 2:06 am

Exactly. The verses I posted were related to the first sutra, and he spoke on the second Tuesday night and yesterday morning.

Not exactly. These verses were cited in the morning Cc discussion. A discipleof Prakasananda Saraswati quoted them while praising Mahaprabhu and the path of bhakti, without which (as the verses say) one can not attain mukti. They are not related to any explanation of the first two sutras. Theya are only related to Vedanta in the sense that they speak of the Guadiya Vedanta conviction as to the means of attainment--bhakti.

Zvonimir Tosic - March 28, 2008 2:07 am

One cannot fall down from videha mukti, but can one be elevated to Vaikutha from that position. I have heard that Lord Siva goes through the Brahmajyoti performing kirtan, giving the chance for those souls to be elevated to Vaikuntha. Unfortunately, I don't know the reference. Is there any authenticity to this idea?

To make this thread even more complicated and interesting, I ask myself, how can someone perform a kirtan in the formless atmosphere filled with light? Isn't kirtan full of personal attributes, namely singing and dancing, and yet brahman is formless. At least, that's what they say. :Nail Biting:

Swami - March 28, 2008 2:37 am

To make this thread even more complicated and interesting, I ask myself, how can someone perform a kirtan in the formless atmosphere filled with light? Isn't kirtan full of personal attributes, namely singing and dancing, and yet brahman is formless. At least, that's what they say. :Nail Biting:

In Brahman (sayujya), who will perform kirtana and for who would they perform it, if the sense of worship, the object of worship, and the worshiper are merged together such that no such distinction is apparent. Is there a hell for devotees ? Yes, sayujya mukti (kaivalyam narakayate). Why? Becasue there is no Hari katha there.

Swami - March 28, 2008 2:50 am

If someone gets to the point of being a jivanmukta in that body, what are the chances he or she develops a devotional attitude before attaining, and in order to attain Brahman?

Many aspirants of mukti take to bhkti becasue they know that by bhakti they can easily attain thier goal.

And what if his or her body comes apart? Will they be reborn brahman-realized, but unless and until they develop bhakti they won't attain Brahman?

The verse cited says they fall down form their imagined liberation. No bhakti = no Brahman.

And if at that level one performs some sort of devotional activity, aren't they pure enough to see the superiority of it, like the 4 Kumaras?

Not necessarily. After all they have cultivated "not serving" for many lives.

At that point, why would they even (want to) attain Brahman?

Becasue that is what they want and it is only for tht end that they will do bhakti. They want mukti badly, big problem. It is all about desire.

Syamasundara - March 28, 2008 2:51 am

GM made the point in this class that when acarya's speak of falldown from mukti, it is jivan mukti. There is no fall from videha mukti. I asked GM for further clarification and he quoted Gita - yad gatva na nivartante; and although we usually think of this as once having attained krsna's abode one never returns, he expanded the idea to include all aspects of liberation from material existence.

This makes a lot of sense.

He then quoted brahmeti, paramatmeti, bhagavan eti sabhyate. People view the absolute differently, so in the same way, the jnani attains his particular gatva - brahman, never to return. :Nail Biting: YIKES! This is why moksa is so distasteful to the bhaktas. GM said it is like erasing one's svarupa - krsnera nitya dasa.

But this is awful and disturbing! Why is it allowed? The jñanis are misled, after all, just like a jiva that keeps choosing matter, but at least, for the nitya-baddhas there is hope.

I mean, it's not misleading to think that everything is brahman, and by the way, what is the standpoint of a real impersonalist, that is, one that hasn't been polluted by mayavada? Can it possibly be that he or she never heard of bhakti? If they have, can they possibly choose against a life of lila? How can Krsna allow that, just because it's what they (think they) want?

Zvonimir Tosic - March 28, 2008 11:44 am

Note that this verse is often thought to say that jivas liberated in Brahman fall down from there. However, one cannot attain Brahman without bhakti, and this verse speaks of those devoid of bhakti. At best it speaks of the jivan-mukta who has not attained final release.

Swami has beautifully addressed this in his Tattva Sandarbha, pages 108-109 (plus all pages starting from 101, the "Trance of Vyasa").

I was just reading it to collect some references to a question/dilemma I wanted to ask about (but not now).

Zvonimir Tosic - March 28, 2008 11:55 am

GM made the point in this class that when acarya's speak of falldown from mukti, it is jivan mukti. There is no fall from videha mukti. I asked GM for further clarification and he quoted Gita - yad gatva na nivartante; and although we usually think of this as once having attained krsna's abode one never returns, he expanded the idea to include all aspects of liberation from material existence.

This makes a lot of sense.

It does make lots of sense when Swami says it.

But, to remind you, there are so many instances, many popular stories of people "falling down" from the perfect spiritual abode in today's ISKCON, for example, thus introducing lots of theological inconsistencies. Serious people are confused and puzzled and are often looking for alternative explanations in the writings of our previous acaryas, if they can find some.

And when they find, they also find themselves in trouble. If you remember, even when I've tried to observe a Rupa Manjari's "fall down" from a slightly different perspective (just as a curiosity), I was .. well, objected. :Nail Biting:

Madan Gopal Das - March 30, 2008 10:10 pm

I don't want to burden any monks, but any chance of an update on the evening classes? I saw your notes Nitaisundara! I know you are learning verses left and right! Repeating them (writing them) helps in committing to memory . Anyone want to post at least the vedanta sutra verse and related Bhagavatam verses discussed? Then we can contemplate the connections. If I'm asking too much just ignore me. :Talking Ear Off:

Atmananda Dasa - April 14, 2008 3:16 pm

Note that this verse is often thought to say that jivas liberated in Brahman fall down from there. However, one cannot attain Brahman without bhakti, and this verse speaks of those devoid of bhakti. At best it speaks of the jivan-mukta who has not attained final release.
One cannot fall down from videha mukti, but can one be elevated to Vaikutha from that position. I have heard that Lord Siva goes through the Brahmajyoti performing kirtan, giving the chance for those souls to be elevated to Vaikuntha. Unfortunately, I don't know the reference. Is there any authenticity to this idea?