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comprehensive solution

Atmananda Dasa - April 23, 2008 1:38 pm

Bhakti is the comprehensive solution to all the problems of this world. I'm really struggling with becoming distracted by the news. Somehow it is more interesting to me than chanting japa and reading the Bhagavatam. I have heard that the practice and realization of bhakti is the comprehensive solution. I accept that this is true but need some more reasoning to support this. Dear devotees, please help me.

Vamsidhari Dasa - April 23, 2008 3:15 pm

Bhakti is the comprehensive solution to all the problems of this world. I'm really struggling with becoming distracted by the news. Somehow it is more interesting to me than chanting japa and reading the Bhagavatam. I have heard that the practice and realization of bhakti is the comprehensive solution. I accept that this is true but need some more reasoning to support this. Dear devotees, please help me.

I do not believe that there is such thing as comprehensive solutions to all the problems of the world. It is not possible to change the world. It operates according to laws and circumstances WAY BEYOND our reach. It is a great thing to believe that one idea a one faith can change everything but unfortunately the reality of the world is there for everyone to examine. At times the world appears so aloof and indifferent to our personal struggles. I do not think that bhakti is a social movement that changes the world. That kind of thing belongs to the 60s and it is about time to leave it there ( :Talking Ear Off: ). I think that bhakti is the state of mind that changes YOU. Bhakti is ABOUT YOU. So, by practicing it your likes and dislikes change and the way you are in the world changes as well. By that the world changes too. If you are in the world it is inevitable that you are affected by the news and the things around you. It is better to be honest with your self and if you feel pulled towards the new because, for example, the very important democratic primaries are of interest to you, then give it some attention. It takes time and a lot of practice to develop a taste for chanting. It does not have to be this either or thing between the spiritual practice and the "worldly" things. Find some balance. If you feel too much pulled away from your spiritual practice think about why that might be. What does losing yourself in the politics of what ever it might be provide to you? Is it a distraction from something? Is it that being socially "aware" makes you feel important? Who knows maybe you will discover some new things about yourself.

Having said all this I hope you will forgive me for allowing myself to give you "advice" not really knowing your situation. If I made some far reaching insinuations forgive me. Hopefully you can take something from this that fits you the rest you can discard.

In service,

Vamsidhari d.

Gaura Krsna Dasa - April 23, 2008 4:52 pm

I'm guessing from what you write that you are seeing a problem in one of two things. Either you think there is a problem because you are "distracted" by worldly events and that is drawing you away from your practice or you are seeing the magnitude of problems in the world, and because you were told that bhakti is the solution for all those problems, you are having doubts about if efficacy. Maybe both?

In response to both these problems (in addition to what Vamsi said), I would say this if I may:

Perceiving the magnitude of the human drama is a very good thing. Well, it's good as long as you can still get up in the morning and function in life. I think it's very important for us to grasp the gist of the human condition and feel how deep and heavy it is. The suffering, the conflict, the tragedy, the black humor, the bitter-sweet poingancy, the exploitation and delusion. Good and evil. Truth and falsehood. Divine and demonic. Culture and degradation. I think it's important to see and feel all of this so we truly understand where we are. I myself find a huge chunk of my motivation to chant in this. It gives me impetus to have compassion for people. And to study, learn, and reflect -to think philosophically about life. For me this is what gives my chanting a "background." I see the intense drama and insanity everyday and just think "whoa......Hare Krsna."

And like I said, this is good only so long as we don't become paralyzed by fear and despair. Sometimes we need to ignore the endless stream of information, take a walk in the park, listen to music, or hang out with people who love us, all the while of course chanting Hare Krnsa because it actually is the solution. At least for us.

Vamsidhari Dasa - April 23, 2008 8:33 pm

I'm guessing from what you write that you are seeing a problem in one of two things. Either you think there is a problem because you are "distracted" by worldly events and that is drawing you away from your practice or you are seeing the magnitude of problems in the world, and because you were told that bhakti is the solution for all those problems, you are having doubts about if efficacy. Maybe both?

This is very well put I think that it epitomizes the problem. But that is the case any time you are trying to artificially live by a dictum. It just does not work. It way more complicated that that. Wordly things can be very important like elections and wars and corruption. if you are in the world you cannot really be independent of it. It affects how much you are paid, where your kids go to school, if you have insurance, can you buy a house and so on. At the same time you cannot constantly worry about this. I think that proper practice helps with that and as Gour Krishna said, it can be an impetus to chant more or serve more. Difficulty is good it forces us to change!

PS Is Maya always bad for a devotee? :Talking Ear Off:

Atmananda Dasa - April 24, 2008 2:52 am

I am not sure what you mean by "all the problems of the world." Even though the life of service and dedication to Guru and Gauranga can consume your entire life one needs to be on that platform in order to actually live the life that comes close to comprehensive solutions.

I do not believe that there is such thing as comprehensive solutions to all the problems of the world. It is not possible to change the world. It operates according to laws and circumstances WAY BEYOND our reach. It is a great thing to believe that one idea a one faith can change everything but unfortunately the reality of the world is there for everyone to examine. At times the world appears so aloof and indifferent to our personal struggles. I do not think that bhakti is a social movement that changes the world. That kind of thing belongs to the 60s and it is about time to leave it there ( :Talking Ear Off: ). I think that bhakti is the state of mind that changes YOU. Bhakti is ABOUT YOU. So, by practicing it your likes and dislikes change and the way you are in the world changes as well. By that the world changes too. If you are in the world it is inevitable that you are affected by the news and the things around you. It is better to be honest with your self and if you feel pulled towards the new because, for example, the very important democratic primaries are of interest to you, then give it some attention. It takes time and a lot of practice to develop a taste for chanting. It does not have to be this either or thing between the spiritual practice and the "worldly" things. Find some balance. If you feel too much pulled away from your spiritual practice think about why that might be. What does losing yourself in the politics of what ever it might be provide to you? Is it a distraction from something? Is it that being socially "aware" makes you feel important? Who knows maybe you will discover some new things about yourself.

Having said all this I hope you will forgive me for allowing myself to give you "advice" not really knowing your situation. If I made some far reaching insinuations forgive me. Hopefully you can take something from this that fits you the rest you can discard.

In service,

Vamsidhari d.

Wow! Thank you. This is really deep. So, I think what you have said is that bhakti does not change the world in terms of its perpetual fate, it changes individuals and incidentally effects the world in a positive way. Its a fine point. It seems almost counter intuitive that by focusing on one's self there will be a positive effect on others. Sadhana is not ultimately focused on changing the world for the better(karma), nor is it focused on escaping the world (jnana). The focus is on discovering the fullest potential of the self in relationship to the supreme self by submission and then longing. So, submission. I guess submission begins with an honest acceptance of reality and my very insignificant role in that reality.

Is this what you are getting at?

No need for apologies. Thank you very much. You and Gaura Krishna have given me alot to think about.

Vamsidhari Dasa - April 24, 2008 5:39 am

The focus is on discovering the fullest potential of the self in relationship to the supreme self by submission and then longing. So, submission. I guess submission begins with an honest acceptance of reality and my very insignificant role in that reality.

Is this what you are getting at?

Rather then submission I would say surrender.... and here is why:

"Surrender does not require another person's presence except as a guide. One may surrender in the presence of another not to another as it is the case of submission.

Surrender is not a voluntary activity. One cannot chose to surrender, though one can chose to submit. One can provide facilitating conditions for surrender but cannot make it happen.

It is an experience of 'being in the moment' totally in the present, where past and future, the two tenses that require mind, [...] have receded from consciousness.

Its ultimate direction is the discovery of one's identity, one's sense of self, one's sense of wholeness, even one's sense of unity with other living beings. In submission the reverse happens: one feels one self as the puppet in the power of another; one's sense of identity atrophies.

In surrender there is an absence of domination and control; the reverse is true for submission.

Resignation accompanies submission; it is heavy and lugubrious.

Acceptance can only happen with surrender. It transcends the condition that evoked it. It is joyous in spirit and like surrender, it happens, it cannot be made to happen.

Submission, loosing one self in the power of the other, becoming enslaved in one way or another to the master, is a lookalike of surrender. It holds out the promise, seduces, excites, enslaves, and in the end, cheats the seeker turned victim out of his cherished goal, offering in its place only the security of bondage and ever amplified sense of futility."

Emanuel Ghent

Madan Gopal Das - April 24, 2008 3:14 pm

I really like what Vamsi has said here and think that it also places emphasis on the point that we need to save ourselves first. Cultivation of bhakti changes the orientation with which the sadhaka views the world. Without some personal realization of the "comprehensive solution" that bhakti offers, one's preaching of it (trying to change the world with it) will be easily dismissed as inauthentic. And it truly is. The most powerful change in the world happens by people who are authentic, who are overflowing with faith. We can develop this by steady honest culture of bhakti in our lives. From that platform one may live in the world and truly exist "not of it". To paraphrase GM, we will dance according to the clarion call of krsna's flute, and our life (the world of I and mine, family, society, etc.) will just become muzak; background noise. We can pay attention to the world (Prabhupada's example: married woman who has a paramour performs all her duties extra nicely so she won't be discovered), but our heart won't be invested in it. I have seen that when a person is centered in their faith in bhakti and has a constant internal life going on, their participation in things in the world also becomes so much more complete, effective, etc. There is no faking it, or internal confusion about whether to participate in the world because the person is grounded, fixed and satisfied internally.

Just an example because my mind is on it:

Yesterday Bill Clinton came to our little town. I follow politics, so I stopped by in between seeing client's to see what Mr. Bill had to say. I'm interested because as Vamsi said, things in the world DO matter; on one level. I spend my days working with people who's lives are greatly affected by the way things go on in the world, with government, etc. Anyway, it turned out there were a few local devotees there. One brought Prabhupada's Gita to try to give Bill. To get to the front of the crowd she stepped on people's toes and forced her way through a crowd that was happily situated in honor of something that was important to them. I guess I perceived in her a lack of that internal taste and bhakti induced paradigm shift because of what I witnessed in her behavior. 1) She was making distinction between the jivas. 2) It appeared that she would be uncomfortable if she was there without proving her KC loyalty to others. It just really made me think about how we change the world by changing ourselves. Great point Vamsi!

Madan Gopal Das - April 24, 2008 3:28 pm

PS Is Maya always bad for a devotee? :Talking Ear Off:

Maya has two faces, one for each orientation to life. The devotee is cultivating association with the internal energy (daivi-sakti) and eventually the world will be all-good when fully under her shelter. That devotee won't see any good vs. bad.

Vamsidhari Dasa - April 24, 2008 4:09 pm

That devotee won't see any good vs. bad. :Talking Ear Off:

OMG, its just like the depressive position emphasized by "Sri" Melanie Klein, nes pas?

But I was thinking about another thing. In a sense bhakti, if translated as LOVE, is a comprehensive solution to everything. But love and loving is not so easy. Love starts at home we have to make our hearts tender and inviting. I will never forget one day when GM was telling us how Krishna naam sweeps our heart even against all our continuos polluting behaviors. He said, in his sweet way, that even when we are not looking Krishna, the sweeper, goes there and "swoosh, swoosh" does the sweeping every chance he gets. In a sense He is making the home of our own hearts suitable for His final installment. First the sweeper, then the King of hearts.

Wilfredo Flores - April 24, 2008 8:24 pm

Hare Krsna,

I too seem to be struggling a little of late. I seem to be suffering from a mild to severe case of depression following a bout with cancer. I'm doing well physically, only now I seem to be experiencing what some may call Post Traumatic Stress Disorder or PTSD. It's been really difficult to concentrate on my japa. I understand that this may be a "normal" reaction to the stress of a major illness. And understand that this happened to my body, not to what is my true identity as spirit. But none-the-less, going through this and I sometimes fear that it has interfered with my seva.

I continue to chant, only now very distracted and sometimes with little enthusiasm. This is very bad. I'm afraid of falling again. And equally afraid of chanting offensively. Any words of advice?

Bhakta Wil (Wilfredo)

Atmananda Dasa - April 24, 2008 10:38 pm

Rather then submission I would say surrender.... and here is why:

 

"Surrender does not require another person's presence except as a guide. One may surrender in the presence of another not to another as it is the case of submission.

Surrender is not a voluntary activity. One cannot chose to surrender, though one can chose to submit. One can provide facilitating conditions for surrender but cannot make it happen.

It is an experience of 'being in the moment' totally in the present, where past and future, the two tenses that require mind, [...] have receded from consciousness.

Its ultimate direction is the discovery of one's identity, one's sense of self, one's sense of wholeness, even one's sense of unity with other living beings. In submission the reverse happens: one feels one self as the puppet in the power of another; one's sense of identity atrophies.

In surrender there is an absence of domination and control; the reverse is true for submission.

Resignation accompanies submission; it is heavy and lugubrious.

Acceptance can only happen with surrender. It transcends the condition that evoked it. It is joyous in spirit and like surrender, it happens, it cannot be made to happen.

Submission, loosing one self in the power of the other, becoming enslaved in one way or another to the master, is a lookalike of surrender. It holds out the promise, seduces, excites, enslaves, and in the end, cheats the seeker turned victim out of his cherished goal, offering in its place only the security of bondage and ever amplified sense of futility."

Emanuel Ghent

Sorry, this isn't really clear to me. Can you paraphrase this for me in simpler language?

Vamsidhari Dasa - April 24, 2008 11:29 pm

Sorry, this isn't really clear to me. Can you paraphrase this for me in simpler language?

I am not sure that I can, but I can try. Submission is more like master slave relationship in a way. you submit to the powerful other not with love but with fear, because you want to be safe from punishment. Surender is done with love, or even better in faith that there is a loving embrace there to accept you as you are. In the article I quoted surrender is seen as a natural human tendency that due to environmental influences has turned into submission. Maybe it is just word play if it is taken out of contaxt but it makes sense to me. Saranagati is not translated as submission but surrender for example. In the West these two words are sometimes synonims but from a psychological perspective they are not. Hope that helps.

Vamsidhari Dasa - April 24, 2008 11:43 pm

Hare Krsna,

 

I too seem to be struggling a little of late. I seem to be suffering from a mild to severe case of depression following a bout with cancer. I'm doing well physically, only now I seem to be experiencing what some may call Post Traumatic Stress Disorder or PTSD. It's been really difficult to concentrate on my japa. I understand that this may be a "normal" reaction to the stress of a major illness. And understand that this happened to my body, not to what is my true identity as spirit. But none-the-less, going through this and I sometimes fear that it has interfered with my seva.

 

I continue to chant, only now very distracted and sometimes with little enthusiasm. This is very bad. I'm afraid of falling again. And equally afraid of chanting offensively. Any words of advice?

 

Bhakta Wil (Wilfredo)

It sounds like a difficult situation. I am sorry to hear about the cancer. PTSD is not normal and it is a reaction to a traumatic situation over which person had no control. If you truly have PTSD you should seek professional help. Even though you are not the body, of course you will be afraid of what is going on and have stress that will interfear with your concentration. You might not be the house you live in, but if the house is on fire of course you will ba scared and run away from it.

Adversity does affect one's seva negatively at times. Having a major, and potentially life threatening illness, is not a walk in the park. If the symptoms are such that they interfear with daily functioning then some help is needed seek it if it is available to you.

We are all fallen, how can you be afraid of being something you already are? The best thing is to be sincere and do you best to avoid offensive chanting but also be aware of your conditions that make it hard to be all that you are. Compassion, like love, starts at home.

Hope this helps.

ys,

Vamsidhari d.

Zvonimir Tosic - April 24, 2008 11:49 pm

Hare Krsna,

I too seem to be struggling a little of late. I seem to be suffering from a mild to severe case of depression following a bout with cancer. I'm doing well physically, only now I seem to be experiencing what some may call Post Traumatic Stress Disorder or PTSD. It's been really difficult to concentrate on my japa. I understand that this may be a "normal" reaction to the stress of a major illness. And understand that this happened to my body, not to what is my true identity as spirit. But none-the-less, going through this and I sometimes fear that it has interfered with my seva.

I continue to chant, only now very distracted and sometimes with little enthusiasm. This is very bad. I'm afraid of falling again. And equally afraid of chanting offensively. Any words of advice?

Bhakta Wil (Wilfredo)

Dear bhakta Wilfredo

I'm sure you're not alone and both Radha and Krishna are with you when you're chanting. And together with them is all what you'll ever need.

When I'm saying Radha and Krishna, I also think about Sri Caitanya. Invite him in your life. Every morning when you open the windows of your heart, stretch your arms and embrace the sun of our lives, Sri Caitanya. Look at him, smile and if the effulgence of the bright sun brings tears in your eyes, don't worry. Embrace it warmly and share with him everything you have, all your hopes and despairs. Give him everything because even you belong to him. Give him your love, and he'll take perfect care of it. If your love is a flower, then he is the perfect gardener.

He will provide all the sunlight and food for your soul, and your gurudeva all the water for you to grow. Thus embrace your gurudeva as your very breath and always think of him. He's the fountain of life.

So don't worry. Even if you begin to fall, where you can fall but in Sri Caitanya's tender arms? And even if you lip somehow and fall firmly on the ground, and if you believe you cannot fall any further because that's the end of everything .. Sri Caitanya is still there because he's put his gentle palms below every straw of grass. Everything in this world, in and out, belongs to him and is of him. And he will never abandon his very dear friend.

So ... don't worry.

Wilfredo Flores - April 25, 2008 10:32 pm

It sounds like a difficult situation. I am sorry to hear about the cancer. PTSD is not normal and it is a reaction to a traumatic situation over which person had no control. If you truly have PTSD you should seek professional help. Even though you are not the body, of course you will be afraid of what is going on and have stress that will interfear with your concentration. You might not be the house you live in, but if the house is on fire of course you will ba scared and run away from it.

Adversity does affect one's seva negatively at times. Having a major, and potentially life threatening illness, is not a walk in the park. If the symptoms are such that they interfear with daily functioning then some help is needed seek it if it is available to you.

We are all fallen, how can you be afraid of being something you already are? The best thing is to be sincere and do you best to avoid offensive chanting but also be aware of your conditions that make it hard to be all that you are. Compassion, like love, starts at home.

Hope this helps.

ys,

Vamsidhari d.

Vamsidhari prabhu,

Thank you for your advice. I am seeking help with this experience. I wanted to get some feedback from my spiritual brothers and sisters. You are soooo right! We are all fallen, how else we'll we have wound up in this world, some of us have lifted themselves out of the "muck" enough to be able to see a little more clearly, I'm not there yet, but hope to be by the mercy of Sri Caitanya. Also lucky for me, I have the association of so many advanced devotees to guide me. I know that all will get better with me. And I'll get on track again.

Thanks again for the response.

All glories to Gaura Hari.

BW

Wilfredo Flores - April 25, 2008 10:45 pm

Dear bhakta Wilfredo

I'm sure you're not alone and both Radha and Krishna are with you when you're chanting. And together with them is all what you'll ever need.

When I'm saying Radha and Krishna, I also think about Sri Caitanya. Invite him in your life. Every morning when you open the windows of your heart, stretch your arms and embrace the sun of our lives, Sri Caitanya. Look at him, smile and if the effulgence of the bright sun brings tears in your eyes, don't worry. Embrace it warmly and share with him everything you have, all your hopes and despairs. Give him everything because even you belong to him. Give him your love, and he'll take perfect care of it. If your love is a flower, then he is the perfect gardener.

He will provide all the sunlight and food for your soul, and your gurudeva all the water for you to grow. Thus embrace your gurudeva as your very breath and always think of him. He's the fountain of life.

So don't worry. Even if you begin to fall, where you can fall but in Sri Caitanya's tender arms? And even if you lip somehow and fall firmly on the ground, and if you believe you cannot fall any further because that's the end of everything .. Sri Caitanya is still there because he's put his gentle palms below every straw of grass. Everything in this world, in and out, belongs to him and is of him. And he will never abandon his very dear friend.

So ... don't worry.

Dear Zvonimir,

Thank you so much for the encouraging words. Today was a better day, of course largely because I had more energy to chant and yes, was feeling the nectar a little clearer. Recently I've been trying more to integrate Sri Caitanya into my life.

I'm reading Guru Maharaj's Siksatakam and that is clearly helping me understand Sri Caitanya's message and mission. Guru Maharaja has a wonderful and simple way of explaining sastra.

The mind is hard to control and harder when the body is not well. But I'm hoping that this experience will also help me understand the determination one needs to listen while chanting.

I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for your support and association.

Yours in service,

Bhakta Wil