:Cool: Wow! I never thought I would ever see this happen! Amazing! Goloka Dhama is an ISKCON community in Germany.
http://www.chakra.org/announcements/AOtherMay24_08.html
Vaisnava Ecumenism in Germany
by Tribhanga das
Posted May 24, 2008
Meeting Vaishnavas from different communities, from May 9 to May 11 a breakthrough took place in Goloka Dhama, Germany: over 100 devotees of different gurus and maths from all over Germany and Switzerland came together for the first time in history. Dina Sharana dd, the GBC representative for Germany, also attended.
Right from the beginning the atmosphere was very cordial and nice. The open and honest gatherings with all the devotees were so exciting that even after hours no one wanted to leave, although breakfast prasadam was already waiting. One devotee after another in the big circle was invited to say something, whatever they felt in their hearts, about their experiences and realisations. Many spoke about their problems to follow all the regulative principles and about their former fears to be punished by God. Many expressed their heartfelt desire to practice Bhakti with joy and without fear.
Together with many ISKCON devotees, there were disciples of Narayana Maharaja, Sadhu Maharaja, Srila Prabhupada, Bhakti Pramod Puri Maharaja, Tripurari Maharaja, Ananta das Babaji and other Gurus. Many of them have practised Krishna consciousness for over 30 years. We experienced how simply and harmoniously we can work together without the unnecessesary boundaries of institutions.
Already in 1930 Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati had written in his famous "Putana" article: "The churches have always proven to be representatives of the most gross forms of worldliness. The former intention of these established churches (religious iinstitutions) may not have been always doubtful, but we see that no religious institution was successful in spiritually uplifting the masses. Indeed, the idea of an organised church marks the end of a living spiritual movement."
Therefore, I find it important that there are free Vaisnava meetings, independent from any religious institutions. We are happy that we could also revive and contribute substantially to the project Goloka Dhama.
We had a seminar called "Free Bhakti" from Ram das (author of several interesting books on this subject matter, backed up by many astonishing quotes from the scriptures) on how we can practice bhakti free from neurotic fears. facilitated a seminar called "Liberation from painful beliefs and thought patterns", whilst Krishna Candra spoke about "Fundamentalism and the interpretation of the scriptures in Krishna consciousness".
Evening bhajanas went on for hours. The cooking, the prasadam distribution and the cleaning up scarcely needed to be organized, since all shared the spirit of serving together. No one felt overburdened, and everyone donated generously.
The final "talking circle" on Monday morning was especially moving, and devotees expressed their feelings that the Vaisnava community has grown out of the institutional boundaries into a new era of cooperation. It is unnecessary to defend the truth, since it is self-effulgent. All reported they felt the strong urge to have exchanges with other devotees irrespective of which line they came from. Our common ground is overwhelming, and those who had been worried about how this could take place in peace and harmony soon felt that no one had any bad intentions.
This "Meeting of Companions on the Journey" was certainly an important step towards reducing fears through having deep exchanges with others and towards a positive Krishna conscious future.
Spiritual sanga flourishes when those who come together have enough integrity ant maturity not to be threatened by the developed individuality of the others. For some on the spiritual path, the individual learning-and-growing process of other souls is perceived as a threat, and human beings can get aggressive when they feel attacked, especially when they are fundamentalist and fear that their religious dogmas are being questioned.
Having association based on these principles, the ongoing judging of others does not take place, because individuality is really experienced, so that of others is not felt as a threat. This enables one to really openly search for the truth, for Radha and Krishna. In religious institutions the other group members are often experienced as restrictive and judgmental; thus one's own thinking and feeling becomes restricted.
For fulfilling exchanges and personal developement one has to overcome the feeling of being dependant on a group or institution, but rather develop one's indivudual relationship with God. It requires a strong basis of one's own experiences and respect for the inner track of life, internal conscience (The Latin word for being deaf to the inner guidance is ab-surdus). The conscience of the heart is likely to go beyond the norms and forms of religious institutions.
Many senior devotees expressed that they had practically lost hope but that this gathering was a breakthrough that had greatly encouraged them. Unanimously, the desire was expressed to have more such free Vaisnava meetings. The next one is already planned for Radhastami, from Sept. 5 to Sept. 7, 2008.
Sounds pretty astonishing and encouraging.
Now, what disciple of Tripurari Maharaja lives in Germany or Switzerland? I want the names...
This is most wonderful and amazing news. I clap my hands! :Cool:
Oh Gaura Nityananda! Oh Radhe Radhe! This is breathtaking.
Swami's contribution to this is enormous. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart.
I bow down unto you, dear Maharaja, and to all devotees here.
I've never heard of a German or Swiss disciple of GM.
Sounds pretty astonishing and encouraging.
Now, what disciple of Tripurari Maharaja lives in Germany or Switzerland? I want the names...
I've never heard of a German or Swiss disciple of GM.
Maybe they're siksa disciples who are proud to say they belong to him.
Maharaja inspires many hearts and has expanded himself through his books and Sanga throughout this world.
But it was so wonderful to hear this news. Any chance this can organised in the US, or perhaps in India?
Make this somehow into a beautiful habit.
PS. Happy b'day!!
Call me a cynical New Yorker, but I tend to see these attempts though noble, quite superficial. As GM once mentioned to me in this regard, "Reconciliation is in siddhanta."
Call me a cynical New Yorker, but I tend to see these attempts though noble, quite superficial. As GM once mentioned to me in this regard, "Reconciliation is in siddhanta."
Well, the penicillin was invented/discovered in late 1920s, but it took WWII with millions of dead and hundreds of thousands of casualties to make such a great discovery a world's news.
What's your point?
What's your point?
Mine or Prema-bhakti's?
I meant to say, every picture needs a suitable contextual frame to be appreciated appropriately. Or, every remedy firstly needs its disease in order to be appreciated fully; otherwise we cannot apprehend its potential and significance. Embrace needs separation. Spiritual world needs material. And so on. Without an urging, alarming need (and with the good elements of true drama), there's no true appreciation of the remedy. No full surrender unto it.
Yes, sorry, I was replying to you, but I still don't understand what you are talking about. A meeting like that would be, if anything, the expression of something else that is already the remedy, like, being Krsna conscious and applying that. From your words it sounds like those meetings are the remedy to sectarianism, etc.
As far as the spiritual world needing the material world, that's sounds new-agey. Or were you referring to our siddhanta?
This meeting is significant because it is perhaps the first time in recent history that an ISKCON community has facilitated a public meeting of Gaudiya Vaisnavas from outside of itself. It certainly doesn't mean that ISKCON has somehow now reconciled it's many philosophical diversions, but it does indicate that some members are at least willing to be a little more open minded and be allowed to remain within the society. By associating with members of other groups, they might get stimulated to learn more about Gaudiya Vaisnava history and philosophy. Eventually, this will lead to a better theoretical uderstanding of siddhanta for some of those devotees. So maybe its not something to get that excited about, but this could be a very significant beginning for a new direction in ISKCON and the world of Gaudiya Vaisnavas in general. Or, it could not be.
A meeting like that would be, if anything, the expression of something else that is already the remedy, like, being Krsna conscious and applying that. From your words it sounds like those meetings are the remedy to sectarianism, etc. As far as the spiritual world needing the material world, that's sounds new-agey. Or were you referring to our siddhanta?
Thank you Syamu. Well, for some people this meeting was a big consolation, because they could finally talk and meet with their Gaudiya relatives without fear. Their fear was rooted in an imposed institutional consciousness, not in Krishna Consciousness you're talking about (lucky for you). People who live under the iron fist lead very stressful existence and deep inside they eager for an opportunity to breathe normally, at least for once. We can compare this to life behind the iron curtain; the life of Western and Eastern Germany during the cold war for example. Of course, if you have never been there you cannot grasp the complexities of people's unhappiness and mental torture they were exposed to.
If you've never experienced a war or hostile separation, famine, torture or poverty, you have no real scope of people's unhappiness caused by such circumstances. That's why we have such a divided world today, where half of the globe has no idea how the other half feels. We're so disconnected from each other. But when we're finally connected, healing takes place.
Krishna Consciousness goes beyond any institution, surpasses walls and opinions and has immense healing properties. This meeting has proven that; this is very significant. This is a good sign to many others who are not yet decided which way to go when pursuing their spiritual paths.
Regarding spiritual world needs material, or vice versa: well, both are there, so obviously they somehow depend on each other. Otherwise we wouldn't have lives, circumstances and laws that govern this creation the way they do now.
Regarding spiritual world needs material, or vice versa: well, both are there, so obviously they somehow depend on each other. Otherwise we wouldn't have lives, circumstances and laws that govern this creation the way they do now.
There is no expression of need in lila, as I'm sure you know by now. Does Radharani need the material world? Subala? Not even Maha-visnu "needs" the material world to be there. Not even the jivas need matter. Indeed, matter manifests at the exact moment when consciousness and the idea of need meet.
There is no expression of need in lila, as I'm sure you know by now. Does Radharani need the material world? Subala? Not even Maha-visnu "needs" the material world to be there. Not even the jivas need matter. Indeed, matter manifests at the exact moment when consciousness and the idea of need meet.
He said both are dependent on each other not needing each other. Material world has a fuller expression of krsna's lila than the spiritual world and that has been spoken about by Jiva Gosvami.
He sure did say need in the first post, and I still don't buy it. The fact that Krsna lila may be sweeter here does not mean or establish that spirit needs matter. The very proof is that in transcendence you don't even perceive matter anymore, because it's not a matter of substance in space, but of consciousness.
I was expecting someone to object that there sure is need and yearning in the spiritual world (although interestingly there isn't already at the brahman level), but that kind of "need" is of a different nature.
Does Radharani need the material world? Subala?. . .
I was expecting someone to object that there sure is need and yearning in the spiritual world (although interestingly there isn't already at the brahman level), but that kind of "need" is of a different nature.
Thank you Syamasundara.
Any dependancy cannot be without reason. There must be a need for it. We have ruled out chance from spirituality long ago, thus as a result everything has its reason. If there's no need for the material world, we can positively say there would be none. But it exists, it's there. Because it's there, it then depends on something.
In physics, it's said that proton yearns for an electron. That yearning is what differentiates chaos from cosmos. When scientists try to break their bonds, an enormous amount of energy is produced; such is their great need to be together, visible in enormous force that holds them together. Although we can argue proton and electron can exist independent of each other (and yes, we can analyse both separately) it's the mutual bond between them that creates a greater meaningful total.
It's said that Bhagavan is the supreme enjoyer. Enjoyer wishes something, and his shakti manifests that, fulfills his wishes. Then he feels complete but in turn his shakti also feels complete because she has satisfied his desires. In that endless game they're interdependent, they need each other. It's the basic feeling. From it curiosity arises, wonder, astonishment and so many other sensations.
The absolute wouldn't be absolute if it cannot accommodate both extremes, spiritual and material, eternal and mortal, making an even bigger picture out of both. As I have seen, Gaudiya Vedanta is both about eternal lila and audarya lila. It's the first philosophy I've seen that truly encompasses all realities, not ruling that either is better or worse (but only if it emphasises certain mood which is a subjective perspective). So in your statement, Radha or Subala don't need something in the material word, but the material world already adds to their perfection, to their absoluteness. Without a material world lila, there would be no Radha or Subala as we know them and no knowledge about them as we are aware of it. Their perfection precedes our perception and is the cause of audarya lila. And is also the cause of nitya lila. The result precedes the equation but because the result is perfect, the elements of the equation are also perfect. The outcome precedes the cause but it allows to be seen otherwise. Whole Krishna lila is like that because it's perfect. Magnificent. That's how I see it.
So you can say the need I was referring to was rather a philosophical need, without which the reality we talk about wouldn't be absolute and thus our arguments dubious. I'd never surrender to some incomplete Absolute or inferior God -- I'd always challenge it and would continue searching for something more perfect. I think same goes for you too.
Oh, here comes the word shuffling once again, and again I'm left alone in this sort of debates. Does everyone agree that the spiritual world needs the material world?
That's what I reacted to. Now after a short time it's shifted to "the material world has its purpose"Embrace needs separation. Spiritual world needs material. And so on.
There must be a need for it. We have ruled out chance from spirituality long ago, thus as a result everything has its reason. If there's no need for the material world, we can positively say there would be none.
and to even the opposite of the initial statement!
Because it's there, it then depends on something.