Tattva-viveka
Praying to Prabhupada
Brahma Dasa - June 12, 2008 4:44 pm
Praying to Prabhupada:
The concept that Srila Prabhupada (or any liberated guru) can hear the prayers of his disciple after he or she has entered nitya lila--is a belief that I have always had some difficulty with (being with thousands praying there woud be no time for playing). So I was hoping that someone might give me some help with this idea.
.
Swami touched upon it in two Sangas:
Aura, Omniscience, and the Liberated Soul
http://www.swami.org/pages/sanga/2001/2001_31.php
Omniscience of the Guru
http://www.swami.org/pages/sanga/2005/2005_13.php
Besides the quote cited from Vedanta sutra.
Is there any scriptural support for this concept?
Are there any examples (from scripture) of gurus appearing to disciples in dreams?
Syamasundara - June 13, 2008 2:44 am
I wasn't sure if you were posting someone's question or it was your own. I read the Sangas you linked, and they only vaguely touch upon your specific question.
I don't really have solid sastric references to what I am about to say, but just my common sense and understanding.
Actually, I do have a sloka which is key, and that everyone knows anyway: acaryam mam vijaniyat, etc
Sri Guru is both a tattva (say, a strong light), and a person occupying a temporary position (a particular silhouette between the light and us), or as SSM beautifully puts, it's where the infinite comes down to embrace the finite. For that matter, it doesn't even have to be a person. The 11th canto of SB teaches us that it can be an animal, like a pigeon or a bee, or circumstance, or series of events. Of course, without the guidance of Sri Guru as a person, it would be really tough to see Sri Guru in all the above.
It's quite important to understand both these aspects of Sri Guru.
To me, Sri Guru has appeared in a form of medium stature, with a hexagonal face, a deep voice, a cunning sense of humor, and lotus nails that resemble twenty full moons rising at the time of go-dhuli. His "worst" quality is excessive kindness, and from there it goes only upward.
However, as we well know, to others Sri Guru may appear in a totally different form.
To me it's a little ludicrous to think that, say, if somebody prays to Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati now, he, as Nayana-mani manjari, is distracted from her nitya seva by this prayer and numerable other ones.
Here is a hi-tech example: the guru-vapu is like the radio in our house. Sri Guru, or Guru tattva is the actual radio station, KC 16.108 MHrz.
When one prays to his or her guru, it's like sending an email to the radio station with a question or comment. Then, if they address our question, we hear it through our radio, but we know the answer is coming from the radio station, not from our yellow and blue radio.
Or, if someone gets an answer from Ask the Swami, they would never think it's their computer answering.
Each one's guru is like the peep hole into the Absolute Truth's peep show.
So, all those devotees praying to SP or even receiving instructions through dreams from him, are actually interacting with the Absolute Reality through the intercom model: "108 Sri Srimad Bhaktivendanta Swami."
A few months ago I got chastised by Sri Guru in a dream, and he sure had the same appearance, voice, and mannerism of our Gurudeva, but I doubt he was even thinking of me at that particular time. So what? I thought about the words in the dream the whole day, I tried to make treasure of them, analyze them in the light of siddhanta, so the teaching took place, and if I made advancement, that's all that matters.
Zvonimir Tosic - June 13, 2008 10:30 am
Each one's guru is like the peep hole into the Absolute Truth's peep show.
Where did you get this one from?! 
Is there any scriptural support for this concept?Are there any examples (from scripture) of gurus appearing to disciples in dreams?
This idea is appearing in many different traditions, and it's common to all of us. When faced with challenging situations, people communicate with their dear ones in dreams and get inspiration, guidance, further understanding of their situation and their life. This is indeed a vast topic, that has intrigued many psychologists and for further reading and analysis, I warmly recommend a book by David Fontana, Teach Yourself to Dream.
It's well worth it. It's beautifully written, very nicely illustrated (layout is gorgeous), it doesn't jump into the mumbo-jumbo stuff but rather nicely analyses dream land of ours and its landscape and leaves the big conclusions .. up in our lap.
After reading this book and some similar material, I may try to offer some little ideas to help answer questions above, but I'll leave it for later.
Madan Gopal Das - June 13, 2008 11:41 am
lotus nails that resemble twenty full moons rising at the time of go-dhuli.
Wow Shyam, now you've really sparked my interest. Of all the features of our gurudeva that I have come to appreciate and love, I don't know that I have focused on his nails before. I'm definitely going to check this out next time I can to see if I can share in this vision.
I wish I had something referenced, but I know that GM spoke several times on the phone sanga of the disciple having dreams/receiving instructions from guru. My perspective on this (based on my own experiences and on what he said) is that dreams can be interpreted various ways by the individual experiencing them. If they strike one as a very favorable instruction for development of bhakti, then they can be accepted as coming from svarupa sakti. If there is an instruction that is "out of the blue" or uncharacteristic of guru, the interpretation should be referenced with other sadhus and possibly rejected. Some dreams may be very wonderful, intimate experiences of guru's presence and we can cherish those. Others may be stemming from what we ate for dinner and should not taken seriously.
I do remember GM giving the example of someone (a ritvik type) who told GM that he had had a dream where Srila Prabhupada told him "just read my books". This person interpreted the dream as confirmation of what he already believed; Prabhupada is the only guru, only read Prabhupada's books, all other books are substandard. GM made a joke about it, "yes, listen to your dream and do what Prabhupada said; READ Prabhupada's books because in the books you will find the truth about guru tattva and reject the nonsense you believe now."
Syamasundara - June 13, 2008 12:25 pm
Of all the features of our gurudeva that I have come to appreciate and love, I don't know that I have focused on his nails before.
Oh, the list could have gone on...
Citta Hari Dasa - June 13, 2008 5:50 pm
A similar issue is the dilemma of Vraja Krsna's omniscience, which is dealt with by Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura in his Raga-vartma-candrika (second illumination, vs. 1). Since not everyone may have the text I thought it would be worthwhile to include it all here, so here it is:
"Sri Syamasundara is always so absorbed in his pastimes with the beautiful girls of Vraja, who have accepted Cupid as their heart's friend, that he is not aware of any loss, exhaustion, household duties, danger, fear, worry, or defeat by his enemies. From all these statements, we can understand that Sri Vrajendranandana has no chance to think of anyone else but Vrndavanesvari and the others, since he is enchanted by his loving pastimes with them. Who will then accept the service rendered to him by the countless raganugiya bhaktas, who come to him from different directions and from different countries? Who will listen to all of their various prayers, praises and so forth? One may offer the solution that Sri Vrajendranandana's expansion in the form of the Supersoul, who lives in everyone's heart, listens, and that the expansion and the origin are actually one, but that would very much hurt the devotees who are attached to Krsna. What, then, is the solution? The answer can be found in the words of Uddhava Mahasaya himself. He says: "O master! O Divine one! When you considered whether or not it was proper to kill Jarasandha and go to the Rajasuya sacrifice, you called me to you and asked for my advice, 'O Uddhava! What should I do in this situation?' like a bewildered person. You bewildered me at that time, acting like an ignorant, yet omniscient man who needed advice from a counsellor, although you are not conditioned by time and space and you are full of causeless eternal knowledge that can be never deluded or lost." In this situation, if someone says, "You seemed bewildered, but in truth you were not, and I seemed bewildered, but in truth I was not," it is not appropriate. The idea being that "Your activities are without endeavor and your birth is birthless"--amidst all these unbefitting words, this argument is also worthless; therefore such words should not be said. We must accept that just as Krsna is sometimes bewildered in his Dvaraka-lila, although he is omniscient there, similarly by his inconceivable potency he is sometimes omniscient in his Vrndavana-lila, although he is bewildered there. We must therefore accept the words of Sripada Lilasuka: "In all his pastimes the effulgent Lord is simultaneoulsly bewildered and omniscient." (emphasis mine)
In the Sanga "Omniscience of the Guru" Guru Maharaja concludes with this:
In any case, according to scripture only Krsna is omniscient, but of course one who knows Krsna knows everything—meaning that he knows everything that he needs to know.
This is the metaphysical omniscience Guru Maharaja refers to in both of the Sangas Brahma posted links to. He has demonstrated there from scripture that only Krsna is omniscient in the full sense of the term. In RVC we also see that Krsna is both bewildered and omniscient simultaneously. In a similar way, since Sri Guru is a manifestation of Krsna, the same must be true of him as well--he is absorbed in the lila, and yet he knows what he needs to know when he needs to know it. What then is to stop him from hearing our sincere prayers? If we accept the existence of the Lord's acintya-sakti then there is no problem. Our faith will propel our prayers, and he will hear them.
Shreekrishna - June 13, 2008 6:09 pm
How much more amazing is this sampradaya, where even the Lord's apparent bewilderment is discussed and relished as part of His eternal and eversweet pastimes...
Prema-bhakti - June 13, 2008 6:17 pm
Another point with regard to prayer to specific personalities in the non dual realm is that they are all connected. We may address our gurudeva or any other personality and the reciprocation comes in the form of inspiration from the other side, a descending process. We are sending out our prayers and those personalities have the resources to reciprocate. It may or may not come down in a way we expect yet our prayers are nonetheless being heard and reciprocated with. Spiritual substance is not static.
Brahma Dasa - June 13, 2008 9:11 pm
Hmm...still no scriptural references.
OK What about this?
Q. I dreamt about my Guru last night. He appeared in the forest chanting japa. Is this real?
A. If we dream about our Gurudeva we are very fortunate. This kind of dream is either a special visitation or a composite of our own attempts to remember Sri Guru in our waking state. The former is much more rare and of greater significance. The latter is a sign of our sincere efforts, a blessing. Your dream is an instance of the latter. I had a dream like this before I met Srila Prabhupada, and it had a profound influence on me. Yes, in either case you can consider that Sri Guru is actually present when we dream of him as long as such dreams are not in opposition to siddhanta.
(From Sanga: Foreboding on the Outside, Heartening Within)
Does anyone have any scriptural references to support this?
Is there anything in SB or CC about the guru appearing to the disciple in dreams?
What about stories..legends...etc. Did Gaur Kishore appear to BSST in a dream and tell him to take Sannyasa??
What about the story of Symananda? Did the gopi appear to him in a dream?
Isn't there a story about Ramanuja's guru communicating with him from the afterlife?
Any help would be appreciated.
Citta Hari Dasa - June 13, 2008 10:02 pm
Is there anything in SB or CC about the guru appearing to the disciple in dreams?
How about this: the adi-guru, Sri Nityananda Prabhu, appeared in Krsnadasa Kaviraja's dream and told him to go to Vrndavana.
If that's not good enough evidence for you, I don't know what would be.
Prema-bhakti - June 13, 2008 10:37 pm
I have been reading in Narottama Vilasa and Bhakti Ratnakara and there are many instances of the Lord and his associates appearing in dreams. The reciprocation comes when the devotee is feeling intense separation. The whole Narottama Vilasa is characterized by Narottama's intense separation from Mahaprabhu and his associates and his gaining their darsana and instruction throughs dreams and trance. In the Bhakti Ratnakara the same intense separation is characterized and the devotees feeling intense separation receive reassurance from departed souls in dreams.
Prema-bhakti - June 13, 2008 10:50 pm
What about the story of Symananda? Did the gopi appear to him in a dream?
As far as I remember Syamananda was absorbed in his service in a trancelike state when he was approached by Visakha gopi who asked if he had found a bangle. Later Radha appears in the dream of Syamananda's guru Hrdaya Caitanya informing him that she had blessed his disciple Syamananda being pleased with him.
Babhru Das - June 13, 2008 11:16 pm
How about this: the adi-guru, Sri Nityananda Prabhu, appeared in Krsnadasa Kaviraja's dream and told him to go to Vrndavana.
If that's not good enough evidence for you, I don't know what would be.
I was going to suggest the same thing. There's also Bhaktivinoda hearing from Jiva Goswami about esoteric features of Sri Navadvipa Dhama, as narrated in Sri Navadvipa Mahatmya. And Srila Sarasvati Thakura appearing twice to Srila Prabhupada, telling him to take sannyasa.
One thing is, though, that these may or may not address the initial question of the efficacy of praying to the guru. However, the guru is the Lord manifesting himself to a sadhaka, and so perhaps he hears the prayers directed to the guru. Then there's the issue brought up by one of my favorite quotations on prayer, from the film Shadowlands, about C. S. Lewis' crisis of faith. In the story, Lewis says that prayer "doesn't change God; it changes me."
Brahma Dasa - June 14, 2008 12:40 am
Well...I'm finally getting some feedback (thanks) but no quoteable concrete references.
And this story doesn't count as Nitai is Visnu Tattva. (How about this: the adi-guru, Sri Nityananda Prabhu, appeared in Krsnadasa Kaviraja's dream and told him to go to Vrndavana.
If that's not good enough evidence for you, I don't know what would be.)
Citta Hari Dasa - June 14, 2008 1:53 am
Well...I'm finally getting some feedback (thanks) but no quoteable concrete references.
And this story doesn't count as Nitai is Visnu Tattva. (How about this: the adi-guru, Sri Nityananda Prabhu, appeared in Krsnadasa Kaviraja's dream and told him to go to Vrndavana.
If that's not good enough evidence for you, I don't know what would be.)
If you are looking for black-and-white quotations of book, chapter, and verse you are going to be looking for quite a while. If there were such I'm pretty sure Guru Maharaja would have included them in his original Sangas on the topic. That being the case, our only recourse is to apply some spiritual common sense based on what we have read and/or heard by our guru-parampara.
Again, as I mentioned, by Krsna's acintya-sakti anything is possible. So, even though it is not specifically mentioned in the sastra that the liberated guru hears the prayers of his or her disciples while absorbed in the lila, by looking at the overall siddhanta and applying some spiritual common sense we will come to the conclusion that by Krsna's will it is certainly possible--after all, we hear all the time that anything is possible in the realm of consciousness, right? Do we really believe that? If so, why is it necessary to have direct verse quotations to accept that the guru has this ability when someone of substantial spiritual standing has told us so? It's a case of "you gotta believe it to see it"--the onus is not on the guru to prove it to us, but for us to have enough faith to prove it to ourselves.
Gandiva Dasi - June 14, 2008 7:05 am
As far as I remember Syamananda was absorbed in his service in a trancelike state when he was approached by Visakha gopi who asked if he had found a bangle. Later Radha appears in the dream of Syamananda's guru Hrdaya Caitanya informing him that she had blessed his disciple Syamananda being pleased with him.
Prema thanks for this, I went back and read the Shyamananda story in Vaisnava Saints by Satyaraj, it is so interesting (sorry if this is long and seems a bit off topic)
Yes Shyamananda was in a trance not a dream when he was approached by Lalita Devi who was disguised as an old gopi inquiring about a lost ankle bell. Shyamananda was still called Krsnadas then and begged the old woman to reveal her true form before he showed her where she had buried the ankle bell. She did and he showed her where it was hidden, she was very pleased with him and gave him the name Shyamananda and before she left pressed Radharani's abkle bell into his forehead to leave a distinct tilak mark.
Shyamananda later revealed what had happened to Jiva Goswami who was his siksa guru according to the wishes of his guru Hrdoya Caitanya. But according to Lalita's instructions asked him no to reveal this to anone else. What happened next was a great misunderstanding , rumors started to fly that Jiva Goswami had taken Krsna das as his own disciple changing his diksa name and giving him new tilak. When Hrdoya Caitanya sent men to get an explanation, Jiva Goswami told them he did not take Krsnadas as his own disciple but that Krsnadas had had a dream where all was revealed to him by his guru Hrdoya Caitanya.
WHen Hrdoya Caitanya heard this he was furious "“It appears that Jiva Goswami is twisting the truth,” he said, “for I have not appeared in Krishnadas's dream, at least not to my recollection. Neither have I given him the name Shyamananda! It is absurd to claim that I have given him the name and tilok in a dream even though I have no remembrance of it! This dream is only a figment of the imagination—it has no reality. Shall we let a mere dream contradict what we see in the real world? No! Only if we have lost our minds can we do such a thing. It is a fool who places so much stock in the dreaming state." And so he went to Vrndavana and with a plan to rub off Shyamananda's tilak publicly, he said only if it spontaneously reappeared would he believe his disciple.
Well its a long story but the tilak did reappear, and things were temporarily settled, but later controversy arose again because Hrdoya Caitanya was in sakhya rasa being a disciple of Gauridas Pandit (Subala gopa) and Shyamanda was showing more of his madhurya mood . (being manaka manjari). Hrdoya Chaitanya got angry and beat his disciple with a stick. That night Caitanya Mahaprabhu appeared to Hrdoya Caitanya in a bloodied white chaddar saying he accepted that beating himself because Shyamananda is so dear to him. It is only then that Hrdoya Caitanya begged forgiveness and realized the depth of Shyamanda's devotion. "At last Hridoy Caitanya had come to his senses, even to the point of realizing that dreams which include the Lord or the pure devotee, when they do not contradict scripture, can be seen as tangible reality.."
Bhrigu - June 14, 2008 11:55 am
I think Hladini has a point, but she overshoots it. According to Jiva Goswamin (Bhaktisandarbha 286, SNS ed. p. 976), Bhagavan appears on earth in form of the guru as a bhakta-avatâra, which is an individual form (vya.s.ti-rûpa), while in the spiritual world, he manifests the collective form of all gurus (sama.s.ti-rûpa) as a specific avatâra. What is this bhakta-avatâra? Krishnadas Kaviraja writes (CC 1.1.44-45): "Although my guru is Caitanya's servant, still I know him to be his manifestation. Scripture says that the guru is the form of Krishna. In the form of the guru, Krishna shows mercy to the devotees." Commenting on these verses of the CC, Sripad Bon Maharaj writes that while the guru in his own eyes is a jiva like anyone else, at the time of initiation, Krishna enters his heart and makes him his manifestation, for the disciple. Thus, while many people may act as gurus, it is one Krishna who speaks through them all. This is the idea of the statement "guru is one".
Therefore, the guru who appears to the disciple in dreams etc is generally Krishna in the form of the specific guru dear to the jiva. Similarly, when we worship Gurudeva's picture, we approach the one Gurutattva (Krishna) through a specific person, but it is unlikely that that specific person will hear the prayer even while in this world.
However, where Hladini goes wrong is when she thinks that this means that we don't need or shouldn't pray to the guru or departed mahajanas. Krishna makes it abundantly clear (Gita 12.16, 9.31 and CC 2.19.50 are just a few verses where he explicitly says this) that he loves his devotees and therefore wishes for them to be worshipped. In fact, as Guru Maharaja often says, he likes this more than himself being worshipped. Jiva Goswami explains this in BS 237. Prayer (vandana) is of course one aspect of worship, so there cannot be anything wrong with praying to a departed guru, either thinking that that particular liberated jiva will hear the prayer (as Guru Maharaja has shown from Baladeva's BS-bhasya is possible), or that it is the samasti-guru (Nityananda/ Baladeva) who will hear.
Prema-bhakti - June 14, 2008 2:42 pm
Prema thanks for this, I went back and read the Shyamananda story in Vaisnava Saints by Satyaraj, it is so interesting (sorry if this is long and seems a bit off topic)
There are many versions of this story. I read a different one where Hrdaya Caitanya's anger was not emphasized to this degree (which I prefer) and that Radha appeared in his dream. Nevertheless, the message is the same.
Prema-bhakti - June 14, 2008 2:44 pm
Nice reply Brighu Bhai. :Batting Eyelashes: Your points bring all our posts together nicely with sastric reference. BS is such an amazing book. Jai Sri Jiva Goswami!!
Babhru Das - June 14, 2008 2:47 pm
Well...I'm finally getting some feedback (thanks) but no quoteable concrete references.
And this story doesn't count as Nitai is Visnu Tattva. (How about this: the adi-guru, Sri Nityananda Prabhu, appeared in Krsnadasa Kaviraja's dream and told him to go to Vrndavana.
If that's not good enough evidence for you, I don't know what would be.)
That's why I hesitated to respond with it, although it was my first thought. And it looks as though you'd need serious shastric references for this woman. She seems impervious to the most reasonable of explanations.
Prema-bhakti - June 14, 2008 3:31 pm
That's why I hesitated to respond with it, although it was my first thought. And it looks as though you'd need serious shastric references for this woman. She seems impervious to the most reasonable of explanations.
If a person's faith solely lies in Prabhupada and he is worshipped as isolated and beyond and/or above his connection to guru parampara, etc., then it becomes imperative that he hears your prayers and responds to them otherwise one's faith is seriously challenged.
Citta Hari Dasa - June 14, 2008 4:15 pm
If a person's faith solely lies in Prabhupada and he is worshipped as isolated and beyond and/or above his connection to guru parampara, etc., then it becomes imperative that he hears your prayers and responds to them otherwise one's faith is seriously challenged.
This is why books like Sri Guru and His Grace are essential reading. Without understanding guru-tattva, i.e., the relationship between the localized manifestation of guru we know personally (vyasti-guru) and the omnipresent guru (samasti-guru) we have little hope of making real spiritual progress. Acintya-bhedabheda once again.
Brahma Dasa - June 14, 2008 4:45 pm
Dandavats to you Bhrigu,
I found your explanation to be absolutly magnificent.
Thanks, Bd
Brahma Dasa - June 14, 2008 5:07 pm
Furthermore your explanation corresponds with what I understood from a conversation we had with Sridhara Maharaja some 25 years ago.
At that time someone said that Srila Prabhupada had written that the guru will return to deliver his disciples—and they asked how this is possible.
Sridhara Maharaja chuckled and replied that if this were the case the guru would never be able to enter the nitya-lila, as he would have to return forever to deliver disciples.
He then said that the answer to this question and all questions of this nature, is that Krsna is the guru. —Krsna will in some way return to deliver us. Understanding this will bring everything into harmony.
Zvonimir Tosic - June 16, 2008 7:12 am
Therefore, the guru who appears to the disciple in dreams etc is generally Krishna in the form of the specific guru dear to the jiva. Similarly, when we worship Gurudeva's picture, we approach the one Gurutattva (Krishna) through a specific person, but it is unlikely that that specific person will hear the prayer even while in this world.
Thank you Bhrigu.
This is what I wanted to say after reading books and material about psychology of dreams.
What experts say, essentially, is that through collective subconscious (or we can call it superconscious) we get solutions and guidance to our conscious life, comprised of thoughts, questions, dilemmas, fears, etc. Because in wake world we gather knowledge and experience through senses, which rely on objects' shapes and sounds, in a similar way collective subconscious gets a shape from our experience to communicate with us in dreams.
Thus we see familiar faces: friends, relatives, gurus. Sometime saints, or divine beings too, which we recognise because we've seen their pictures, paintings, deities. If we substitute a relatively vague term "collective subconscious" (or superconscious) with our familiar term of Paramatma, we get a somewhat clearer picture on what happens in dreams, because we know more about Paramatma from the scripture.
To put it simple, Paramatma decides what will make best impact on us and how is appropriate to convey the message. Then it takes appropriate shape (because it's a summum of all shapes and ideas within his world) and directs the reality of dreams to play, to unfold in a particular way.
Paramatma is an expansion of Krishna and guides us through this world, so the Paramatma is the all-knowing guru who inspires us and guides us through dreams as well because it knows all the nuances of our experiences and how to relate to them. This modern perspective on dreams also confirms, but from another perspective, the illustrative idea from Katha and other Upanisads about the relationship between the soul and the supersoul. (In Christian thought, the analogy of Paramatma or superconsciousness is called the all-knowing, or all-seeing eye of God).
Dreams have their language too. It's not the same language as our everyday language, but it adds to it and goes beyond it. So in our dreams we have elements of our conscious and superconscious vocabulary, and thus dreams can be confusing to understand by our conscious efforts. We have to loose our conscious grip then, must free our understanding and try to understand our dreams by expanding the scene -- broadening the picture -- in which they're painted. To reveal true message behind many dreams doesn't mean to focus on specific details, but rather capture the background, things that happened before and after, together with surrounding in which detail occurred.
I've found that's true for scripture as well, especially in works such as Srimad Bhagavatam. I found both conscious and superconscious elements in Srimad Bhagavatam, often interwoven together and it gets really hard, or better say impossible to understand verses from Bhagavatam using common sense, Sanskrit grammar and conscious efforts. Sukadeva's reality goes beyond all that. Therefore we must go beyond all that too, if we want to understand Sukadeva and we need a help from Sri Guru -- as Bhrigu Prabhu beautifully explained above.