Tattva-viveka
Brahma Samhita
Margaret Dale - July 30, 2008 6:02 am
I have a couple of questions regarding the Brahma Samhita.
1. In verse 5.8 the purport mentions efficiency is Maya and the material principle is Sambhu. In verse 5.19 the purport says that this world is manifest as a result of the union of the efficient and the material causal principles of Maya. Can someone explain what is meant by efficiency or efficient principal and material principle?
2. In verse 5.3 prakrtya is translated as "along with the predominated aspect of the Absolute." In verse 5.6 prakrtya is translated as "with the mundane potency." Are these referring to the same thing? It says in the 5.6 purport that the mundane potency is a perverted reflection and that Krsna has no association with it, whereas in v 5.3 the predominated and predominating aspects are found together in location. Based on that, I would think the same word is referring to 2 different things. If so, could someone clarify what is meant by the predominated aspect of the Absolute?
3. In verses 5.27 and 5.28 the three Vedas are mentioned. I usually hear four Vedas spoken of. Why is it three here?
4. Are the rest of the chapters extant somewhere? Chapter five seems to give a complete overview of the universe and of the glories of Krsna. I'm wondering what other wonderful things the rest of it might speak of.
Thanks.
Syamasundara - July 30, 2008 6:20 am
I can only answer to 4. nicely.
Mahaprabhu brought the Brahma Samhita when he came back from his pilgrimage to the South. The 5th chapter is all that had remained when he discovered it.
Madan Gopal Das - July 30, 2008 2:29 pm
3. In verses 5.27 and 5.28 the three Vedas are mentioned. I usually hear four Vedas spoken of. Why is it three here?
Three vedas are mentioned many places in scripture. The lord is referred to as lord of the Tri-vedas, three vedas. From what I remember from college courses, this is because the Atharva veda is often considered part of one of the others, I think the Rg veda. From Wikipedia:
The Atharvaveda is the fourth Veda. Its status has occasionally been ambiguous, probably due to its use in sorcery and healing. However, it contains very old materials in early Vedic language. Manusmrti, which often speaks of the three Vedas, calling them trayam-brahma-sanātanam, "the triple eternal Veda". The Atharvaveda like the Rigveda, is a collection of original incantations, and other materials borrowing relatively little from the Rigveda.
Citta Hari Dasa - July 30, 2008 4:24 pm
I have a couple of questions regarding the Brahma Samhita.1. In verse 5.8 the purport mentions efficiency is Maya and the material principle is Sambhu. In verse 5.19 the purport says that this world is manifest as a result of the union of the efficient and the material causal principles of Maya. Can someone explain what is meant by efficiency or efficient principal and material principle?
2. In verse 5.3 prakrtya is translated as "along with the predominated aspect of the Absolute." In verse 5.6 prakrtya is translated as "with the mundane potency." Are these referring to the same thing? It says in the 5.6 purport that the mundane potency is a perverted reflection and that Krsna has no association with it, whereas in v 5.3 the predominated and predominating aspects are found together in location. Based on that, I would think the same word is referring to 2 different things. If so, could someone clarify what is meant by the predominated aspect of the Absolute?
3. In verses 5.27 and 5.28 the three Vedas are mentioned. I usually hear four Vedas spoken of. Why is it three here?
4. Are the rest of the chapters extant somewhere? Chapter five seems to give a complete overview of the universe and of the glories of Krsna. I'm wondering what other wonderful things the rest of it might speak of.
Thanks.
To reply to #1:
The purport says: "Lying in the causal water as the primal purusa-avatara He casts His glance towards Maya (the limited potency). Such glance is the efficient cause of the mundane creation. "
The purport goes on to identify this glance as Shambhu, (the efficient cause), the maya-sakti as the instrumental cause, and Maha-Visnu as the Purusa who possesses will and initiates the whole affair.
There is definitely some confusing use of terms, since later on it says "efficiency is Maya", but I think the point to be gleaned is that there are three "causes" for the material creation: the willing factor, or the Purusa; the efficient cause, or his glance, symbolized as Shambhu; and the ingredient or instrumental cause, maya-sakti.
As for #2, predominated aspect and mundane potency are synonyms for the maya-sakti. Visnu is the predominator, and his sakti is predominated.
Margaret Dale - August 1, 2008 2:16 pm
In Srila Sridar Maharaja's commentary on the Gayatri he says "bhargo is no less than the vaibava, the extended body of Srimati Radharani, which contains everything for the service of Krsna. Bhargo represents Mahabava, the predominated moiety, and deva, Krsna, is Rasaraja, the predominating moiety." Because the BS specifically says in 5.6 that Krsna "has no association with His mundane potency" and that obviously Krsna has the most intimate association with Srimati Radharani, I have to conclude that the prakrtya's spoken of in the two verses are referring to different things - one to Radha and one to maya sakti.
I still am not clear on what is meant by efficient or efficiency. Is there another English word or phrase which could be used as a synonym?
Any ideas on the 3 vs the 4 Vedas?
Gaura-Vijaya Das - August 1, 2008 2:34 pm
In Srila Sridar Maharaja's commentary on the Gayatri he says "bhargo is no less than the vaibava, the extended body of Srimati Radharani, which contains everything for the service of Krsna. Bhargo represents Mahabava, the predominated moiety, and deva, Krsna, is Rasaraja, the predominating moiety." Because the BS specifically says in 5.6 that Krsna "has no association with His mundane potency" and that obviously Krsna has the most intimate association with Srimati Radharani, I have to conclude that the prakrtya's spoken of in the two verses are referring to different things - one to Radha and one to maya sakti.
I still am not clear on what is meant by efficient or efficiency. Is there another English word or phrase which could be used as a synonym?
Any ideas on the 3 vs the 4 Vedas?
many times 3 vedas are spoken of instead of 4 so it is not surprising at all.
Swami - August 1, 2008 2:35 pm
I still am not clear on what is meant by efficient or efficiency. Is there another English word or phrase which could be used as a synonym?
In Western philosophy the efficient cause is a philosophical concept proposed by Aristotle. This is the agent which brings something about. The same term has been used in many English translations of the Sanskrit word nimitta. The nimitta or efficient cause is that which makes something happen. For example, in the case of a clay pot, it is the potter and the act of spinning the clay that causes the pot. The material or ingredient (upadan) cause of the pot, on the other hand, is the clay.
The 3 vs 4 vedas has been answered by Madana Gopal above.
Margaret Dale - August 1, 2008 2:42 pm
Guru Maharaja, thank you for the explanation. That makes much more sense to me now.
Mandan Gopal - I'm sorry I overlooked your post. Thank you for the reply!
Gaura-Vijaya Das - August 1, 2008 3:19 pm
In Western philosophy the efficient cause is a philosophical concept proposed by Aristotle. This is the agent which brings something about. The same term has been used in many English translations of the Sanskrit word nimitta. The nimitta or efficient cause is that which makes something happen. For example, in the case of a clay pot, it is the potter and the act of spinning the clay that causes the pot. The material or ingredient (upadan) cause of the pot, on the other hand, is the clay.
The 3 vs 4 vedas has been answered by Madana Gopal above.
Can we say that Mahavisnu is the efficient cause as SP sometimes did mention it like that.
Citta Hari Dasa - August 1, 2008 3:25 pm
In Srila Sridar Maharaja's commentary on the Gayatri he says "bhargo is no less than the vaibava, the extended body of Srimati Radharani, which contains everything for the service of Krsna. Bhargo represents Mahabava, the predominated moiety, and deva, Krsna, is Rasaraja, the predominating moiety." Because the BS specifically says in 5.6 that Krsna "has no association with His mundane potency" and that obviously Krsna has the most intimate association with Srimati Radharani, I have to conclude that the prakrtya's spoken of in the two verses are referring to different things - one to Radha and one to maya sakti.
I still am not clear on what is meant by efficient or efficiency. Is there another English word or phrase which could be used as a synonym?
Any ideas on the 3 vs the 4 Vedas?
It's not clear to me which two verses you're referring to with regard to the usage of prakrtya, but it is a fact that Krsna never directly associates with his maya-sakti. Just as Sri Krsna is svayam bhagavan, Sri Radha is svayam sakti, and the maya-sakti is her expansion in the material plane, aka Durgadevi. Krsna does associate with a type of maya, though: yogamaya. She makes Krsna forget that he is God, thus making intimacy with him possible.
Swami - August 1, 2008 3:54 pm
Can we say that Mahavisnu is the efficient cause as SP sometimes did mention it like that.
Yes. More specifically his glance.
Swami - August 1, 2008 7:12 pm
This is a useful thread. Sri Krsnadasa describes the Brahma-samhita and Mahaprabhu’s finding it thus.
maha-bhakta-gana-saha tahan gosthi kaila
brahma-samhitadhyaya-punthi tahan paila
punthi pana prabhura haila ananda apara
kampasru-sveda-stambha-pulaka vikara
siddhanta-sastra nahi brahma-samhita’ra sama
govinda-mahima janera parama karana
alpaksare kahe siddhanta apara
sakala-vaisnava-sastra-madhye ati sara
bahu yatne sei punthi nila lekhaiya
ananta padmanabha aila harasita hana
“In the temple of Adi-kesava, Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu discussed spiritual matters among highly advanced devotees. While there, He found a chapter of the Brahma-samhita. Caitanya Mahaprabhu was greatly happy to find a chapter of that scripture, and symptoms of ecstatic transformation?trembling, tears, perspiration, trance and jubilation?were manifest in His body. There is no scripture equal to the Brahma-samhita as far as the final spiritual conclusion is concerned. Indeed, that scripture is the supreme revelation of the glories of Lord Govinda, for it reveals the topmost knowledge about Him. Since all conclusions are briefly presented in the Brahma-samhita, it is essential among all the Vaisnava literatures. Caitanya Mahaprabhu copied the Brahma-samhita, and then with great pleasure He went to a place known as Ananta Padmanabha.”
Margaret Dale - August 1, 2008 10:18 pm
Citta Hari - I'm referring to 5.3 and 5.6.
Citta Hari Dasa - August 1, 2008 11:48 pm
Citta Hari - I'm referring to 5.3 and 5.6.
We get the answer from the context of the verses they appear in. Verse 3 is a description of the spiritual world, so prakrtya there refers to the svarupa-sakti. Verse 6 is a description of the purusa mentioned in verse 3, and there prakrtya indicates his maya-sakti, with whom the lord does not associate (directly).
Margaret Dale - August 2, 2008 12:39 am
We get the answer from the context of the verses they appear in. Verse 3 is a description of the spiritual world, so prakrtya there refers to the svarupa-sakti. Verse 6 is a description of the purusa mentioned in verse 3, and there prakrtya indicates his maya-sakti, with whom the lord does not associate (directly).
Then we agree, although we came to the same answer in different ways. 
Margaret Dale - August 4, 2008 7:01 am
More questions:
In the purport of 5.30, Prabhupada says :"Just as a mass of blue clouds offers a specifically soothing, pleasant view, the complexion of Krishna is analogously tinged with a spiritual dark-blue color." I interpret this as meaning that the color of Krsna is soothing and pleasing to our true selves. My question is about the meaning of color. The next set of verses speak about how different the spiritual world is from the material world, in that things in the spiritual world are complete and transcendental rather than the limited and imperfect things seen in the material world. In this sentence first a material color is mentioned, then the color of Krsna is specifically referred to as 'spiritual.' Based on the other verses in this section, is it reasonable to understand that a spiritual color has properties which are beyond those of physical colors, so that perhaps a spiritual color may also carry with it sound, taste, aroma, touch, emotion, etc? Also, is the spiritual dark blue color something only seen by a purified devotee?
5.37 purport
"The conception of Goloka manifests itself differently in proportion to the degree of realization of the various pastimes of Vraja and it is very difficult to lay down any definite criterion as to which portions are mundane and which are uncontaminated. The more the eye of devotion is tinged with the salve of love, the more will the transcendental concept gradually manifest itself."
In other words, if one were so fortunate to live in Vrndavan or Dwarka during the time of Krsna's earthly appearance, if one were not a devotee but just passing through (of course, that wouldn't really happen, would it, because just to get to see Him would take lifetimes of devotion) and glanced at Krsna, would his skin actually appear physically blue as a physical manifestation of his true self, or would one only see the spiritual blue color if one were using their spiritual eyes?
I suppose the same question could be asked of any of the occurrences in the lilas. When Krsna is playing his flute, physically is there actually a wind instrument being blown through? Because I would think that the real flute is something unimaginable, and that the gopis are really hearing Krsna playing a divine spiritual love tune on his spiritual flute, and they hear it with their ears of love. Would one with no devotion even notice the tune if one walked by?
In the purport of 5.29 Prabhupada uses the expression of "checkered divine love." (the purpose trees in the abode of Krishna bestow innumerable fruits in the shape of checkered divine love). I am not familiar with the use of the term "checkered". Can someone clarify for me?
Citta Hari Dasa - August 4, 2008 3:14 pm
Since all things spiritual lie beyond the mind and senses of a conditioned jiva they are revealed when one is eligible (pure enough). The descriptions given in the sastras are indicators, there to give the mind something to relate to, some idea of what Krsna looks like, but to take such descriptions too literally is like mistaking the map for the territory.
Margaret Dale - August 5, 2008 9:09 am
Verse 5.3 mentions Candradhvaja. Who is he and what is his story?
In verse 5.37 there are references to other works that I can't find. "purvotka...saratah" written by Sri Rupa Goswami and "tathapi...vraja-vanitanam" by Sri Jiva Goswami.
Thanks!
Citta Hari Dasa - August 5, 2008 4:28 pm
Verse 5.3 mentions Candradhvaja. Who is he and what is his story?
In verse 5.37 there are references to other works that I can't find. "purvotka...saratah" written by Sri Rupa Goswami and "tathapi...vraja-vanitanam" by Sri Jiva Goswami.
Thanks!
Candradhvaja is another name for Lord Siva, who is said to bear the moon (Candra) on his head.
In the Sri Caitanya Saraswata Matha printing Jiva Goswami's commentaries on Ujjvala-nilamani and Krsna-sandarbha are mentioned. Hard to say where exactly the quotes are from since references are not given; the quote by Sri Rupa could be from the Ujjvala-nilamani, and the quote from Sri Jiva could be from Krsna-sandarbha. Someone like Bhrgu who is very well-read might know for sure. In any case, Ujjvala-nilamani is specifically about madhurya-rasa and is not a book for beginners. Jiva Goswami's Sandarbhas are an exposition on the Srimad-Bhagavatam and are his greatest works of tattva. Well worth the effort to read them--very grounding.
Syamasundara - August 5, 2008 11:41 pm
Candradhvaja is another name for Lord Siva, who is said to bear the moon (Candra) on his head.
Yes, but on a flag? I never heard of Siva having a banner or flag (dhvaja) with the moon on it.
Citta Hari Dasa - August 5, 2008 11:44 pm
Yes, but on a flag? I never heard of Siva having a banner or flag (dhvaja) with the moon on it.
Me either, but that's who the BrS. verse is referring to.
Bhrigu - August 6, 2008 12:02 pm
Candradhvaja is another name for Lord Siva, who is said to bear the moon (Candra) on his head.
In the Sri Caitanya Saraswata Matha printing Jiva Goswami's commentaries on Ujjvala-nilamani and Krsna-sandarbha are mentioned. Hard to say where exactly the quotes are from since references are not given; the quote by Sri Rupa could be from the Ujjvala-nilamani, and the quote from Sri Jiva could be from Krsna-sandarbha. Someone like Bhrgu who is very well-read might know for sure. In any case, Ujjvala-nilamani is specifically about madhurya-rasa and is not a book for beginners. Jiva Goswami's Sandarbhas are an exposition on the Srimad-Bhagavatam and are his greatest works of tattva. Well worth the effort to read them--very grounding.
I have never read the Ujjvala-nilamani, so I can't help you with this, but I second Cittahari's suggestion to study the Sandarbhas. Unfortunately, only the first and fifth (Tattva- and Bhakti-) have been properly translated. The translations by Sriman Kushakratha Prabhu are unfortunately too faulty to be of any real use.
Candradhvaja is a bahu-vrihi compund, meaning "he whose banner is the moon", i.e. he who wears the moon in his hair.
Syamasundara - August 6, 2008 11:58 pm
Sure, from the words in the purport I was almost positive that Siva was being talked about, nor was I really doubting it.
Still, when is the last time you wore a banner in your hair?
Citta Hari Dasa - August 7, 2008 12:05 am
Sure, from the words in the purport I was almost positive that Siva was being talked about, nor was I really doubting it.
Still, when is the last time you wore a banner in your hair?
Come on Syamu--poetic license!
Margaret Dale - August 7, 2008 5:18 am
Verses 5.46 and following talk a lot about subjective portions and subjective personality. I don't understand what is meant by subjective.
Citta Hari Dasa - August 7, 2008 4:14 pm
Verses 5.46 and following talk a lot about subjective portions and subjective personality. I don't understand what is meant by subjective.
The Narayana forms in Vaikuntha as well as the Visnus who expand to create and then enter into the material world are being described. "Subjective portion" is used here to indicate expansions of Krsna, and in this context I believe subjective is referring to their status as Visnu-tattva--God--who is the subject, while everything that issues from God could be considered to be his objects. Srila Sridhara Maharaja said it a bit differently but the idea is the same: there is the material world, which is the object that is experienced by consciousness (the souls who inhabit the world), so consciousness is the subject. And that consciousness has the relationship to God of being the object that is experienced by God, who SSM then termed the supersubject. So we have God (supersubject), who experiences the jivas (subject), who experience matter (the object).
And this is why SSM often stressed that when dealing with the Absolute we have no recourse other than humility and to petition for grace, since the plane of reality that we are attempting to enter is composed of a finer substance than we ourselves are. Earlier in the Brahma-samhita we find "cintamani prakara sadmasu. . .", which in poetic language is referring to its being composed of the svarupa-sakti (specifically the sandhini-sakti presided over by Sri Baladeva). The jiva-sakti (a.k.a. tatastha-sakti) is of a categorically lower nature than the svarupa-sakti, since the jivas are prone to being influenced by the maya-sakti while the svarupa-sakti never is.
I hope this helps.