Tattva-viveka
from the lecture on Balarama Jayanti
Gaura-Vijaya Das - August 17, 2008 6:23 am
It was great to hear GM speak. I hope such arrangements can happen many times in the future.
I wanted to just see if I had understood one thing correctly about Sri Balarama.
GM said that Balarama is the source of Vasudeva Krsna in Mathura and also in Dwarka. That is the reason Krsna shows more maryada there. But still Krsna from Dwarka sends Balarama to deliver his message to the gopis. When Krsna from Dwarka is sending Balarama isn't he accepting service from his own source?
Also like GM said as Rama in Ayodhya Balarama shows complete maryada. But we see that in Nityananada prabhu's childhood pastimes he identifies himself with lakshman and balarama and not vasudeva krsna and ramachandra. This is apart from the fact that Chaitanya Mahaprabhu displays two arms of Rama not Nityananda Prabhu.
So my question is that can we conceive Krsna and Balarama as bhagavan and sevak bhagavan dyad who manifest as Vasudeva Krsna and Baladeva, Ramachandra and Lakshman, Narayana and Sesa(with all his paraphernalia and form) rather than seeing Balarama as the source of all of the below? Am I making a mistake by thinking like that?
Prahlad Das - August 17, 2008 6:58 am
ete camsa-kalah pumsah krsnas tu bhagavan svayam
indrari-vyakulam lokam mrdayanti yuge yuge
"All the lists of the incarnations of Godhead submitted herewith are either plenary expansions or parts of the plenary expansions of the Supreme Godhead, but Krsna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself." (Bhag. 1.3.28)
Krsna is Bhagavan Svayam.
Swami - August 18, 2008 1:56 am
It was great to hear GM speak. I hope such arrangements can happen many times in the future.I wanted to just see if I had understood one thing correctly about Sri Balarama.
GM said that Balarama is the source of Vasudeva Krsna in Mathura and also in Dwarka. That is the reason Krsna shows more maryada there. But still Krsna from Dwarka sends Balarama to deliver his message to the gopis. When Krsna from Dwarka is sending Balarama isn't he accepting service from his own source?
Also like GM said as Rama in Ayodhya Balarama shows complete maryada. But we see that in Nityananada prabhu's childhood pastimes he identifies himself with lakshman and balarama and not vasudeva krsna and ramachandra. This is apart from the fact that Chaitanya Mahaprabhu displays two arms of Rama not Nityananda Prabhu.
So my question is that can we conceive Krsna and Balarama as bhagavan and sevak bhagavan dyad who manifest as Vasudeva Krsna and Baladeva, Ramachandra and Lakshman, Narayana and Sesa(with all his paraphernalia and form) rather than seeing Balarama as the source of all of the below? Am I making a mistake by thinking like that?
Balarama expands as Vasudeva Krsna who then expands as Mula Sankarsana (Balarama of Mathura/Dvaraka) for pastimes. So it is Mula Sankarsana who accepts service from Dvarakesa Krsna to return to Vrndavana. However, when he arrives in Vrndavana he is the original Balarama. Yes Balarama identifies with Laksmana, etc., but this does not change the fact that both Rama and Laksman are expansions of Balarama, who is an expansion of Krsna.
Pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja used to say that Devakinandana Krsna is equal in rasa to Balarama. Still he has a different disposition that that of Balarama, one that is more closely related to that of Vraja Krsna. Smilarly Ramacandra is more closely related in personality to Krsna and Laksman to Balarama even though each of them are expansions of Balarama, who is an expansion of Krsna.
Well, I guess that clears up any confusion. 
Balarama himself is more full of rasa than Ramacandra, but as Laksmana he is less full than Ramacandra.
This is the sequence, but all of this expansion is Krsna expanding , first as Balrama, etc. fr the sake of his lilas. So in these expansions regardless of the sequence, Rama and Krsna retain thier dispositions more when the appear as Rama Laksman, etc.
Syamasundara - August 18, 2008 3:20 am
One question that has come to me reading this is about the sakti counterparts that expand from Balarama. All the Rukminis, Laksmis, Sitas, are they, what, expansions of Balarama's internal pleasure potency?
Prahlad Das - August 18, 2008 5:43 am
Well, I guess that clears up any confusion.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - August 18, 2008 6:13 pm
Balarama expands as Vasudeva Krsna who then expands as Mula Sankarsana (Balarama of Mathura/Dvaraka) for pastimes. So it is Mula Sankarsana who accepts service from Dvarakesa Krsna to return to Vrndavana. However, when he arrives in Vrndavana he is the original Balarama. Yes Balarama identifies with Laksmana, etc., but this does not change the fact that both Rama and Laksman are expansions of Balarama, who is an expansion of Krsna.
Pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja used to say that Devakinandana Krsna is equal in rasa to Balarama. Still he has a different disposition that that of Balarama, one that is more closely related to that of Vraja Krsna. Smilarly Ramacandra is more closely related in personality to Krsna and Laksman to Balarama even though each of them are expansions of Balarama, who is an expansion of Krsna.
Well, I guess that clears up any confusion.
Balarama himself is more full of rasa than Ramacandra, but as Laksmana he is less full than Ramacandra.
This is the sequence, but all of this expansion is Krsna expanding , first as Balrama, etc. fr the sake of his lilas. So in these expansions regardless of the sequence, Rama and Krsna retain thier dispositions more when the appear as Rama Laksman, etc.
Also the sequence cannot be taken literally because in spiritual dimension linearity in time doesn't exist. So Balarama coming after Krsna is just a point for our convenience as everybody is present simultaneously. Like you pointed out it is better to view them in terms of more complete expression or gradation of rasa.
I find the expansion sequence just to be a analogy for our conditioning as there is no such thing as first krsna existing alone and then jivas being created. All are there simultaneously, right?
Citta Hari Dasa - August 18, 2008 10:26 pm
Also the sequence cannot be taken literally because in spiritual dimension linearity in time doesn't exist. So Balarama coming after Krsna is just a point for our convenience as everybody is present simultaneously. Like you pointed out it is better to view them in terms of more complete expression or gradation of rasa.I find the expansion sequence just to be a analogy for our conditioning as there is no such thing as first krsna existing alone and then jivas being created. All are there simultaneously, right?
Right, all are there simultaneously. Guru Maharaja mentioned in the class on Baladeva Purnima that to speak about the progression of Krsna's expansions in a linear way is just a way of talking about it for those who have no other frame of reference than time and space. Here in the realm of material time there is no other way to talk about it.