Tattva-viveka
“Don’t go to University, they will teach you only materialism!”
Yamuna Dasi - September 22, 2008 9:02 am
Another issue and contradiction that bothers me is that very often it is seriously preached to devotees that school and University are something very bad and material and have no value at all. That the best one can do is to join the ashram and leave any such kind of demoniac education.
But if we preach so, how can devotees become part of the society and preach by their own example? The society will respect real good professionals who contribute for this society, not just some strange people who earn their livelihood by selling incense sticks on the streets to get donations for maintaining the ashrams and temples. Society does not like and does not appreciate this. Should this be the image of the devotees – street sellers of incense sticks? I have seen a guru who invited a prospective devotee from Bulgaria, who was a second year student of diplomacy, having a father ambassador, to just leave his study in the University because these are just some material insignificant things and join an ashram at the other side of the world by donating the new computer which his father bought him to the ashram and the ashram buying him one way ticket to that other side of the world place… where he could live and serve. Why? Isn’t it much better for this young man to stay living in the ashram and continuing his study in the University? What is wrong with this? One day he could be a respected person who will preach GV from the level of his position and the society will respect him and hear his voice.
I find it very hypocritical if we welcome in the vaishnavism people with position in society and we are proud with them for joining the devotees, but we ourselves as a society are not able to produce such people. There is something very wrong in this… very double standard way of thinking.
I am very happy that my Gurudevas are enthusing their disciples to study and become respected and learned people and serve Krishna and society in this way. And I am sorry to see that in ISKCON and in some other missions still is preached against studying and becoming a professional, considering it a material and even “demoniac” activity.
I hope to hear what are your opinion about this touchy topic.
Citta Hari Dasa - September 22, 2008 8:00 pm
Another issue and contradiction that bothers me is that very often it is seriously preached to devotees that school and University are something very bad and material and have no value at all. That the best one can do is to join the ashram and leave any such kind of demoniac education.But if we preach so, how can devotees become part of the society and preach by their own example? The society will respect real good professionals who contribute for this society, not just some strange people who earn their livelihood by selling incense sticks on the streets to get donations for maintaining the ashrams and temples. Society does not like and does not appreciate this. Should this be the image of the devotees – street sellers of incense sticks? I have seen a guru who invited a prospective devotee from Bulgaria, who was a second year student of diplomacy, having a father ambassador, to just leave his study in the University because these are just some material insignificant things and join an ashram at the other side of the world by donating the new computer which his father bought him to the ashram and the ashram buying him one way ticket to that other side of the world place… where he could live and serve. Why? Isn’t it much better for this young man to stay living in the ashram and continuing his study in the University? What is wrong with this? One day he could be a respected person who will preach GV from the level of his position and the society will respect him and hear his voice.
I find it very hypocritical if we welcome in the vaishnavism people with position in society and we are proud with them for joining the devotees, but we ourselves as a society are not able to produce such people. There is something very wrong in this… very double standard way of thinking.
I am very happy that my Gurudevas are enthusing their disciples to study and become respected and learned people and serve Krishna and society in this way. And I am sorry to see that in ISKCON and in some other missions still is preached against studying and becoming a professional, considering it a material and even “demoniac” activity.
I hope to hear what are your opinion about this touchy topic.
I'm not sure what is so touchy about this topic, at least here on the Tattva-viveka.
In my view, to preach against becoming a respected, integrated member of society, and against university educations that may be a stepping stone to that, is extremely shortsighted and reveals a misunderstanding (or misapplication) of the siddhanta. If Gaudiya Vaisnavism is to stand the test of time and become a major influence in society then it must integrate at the grass roots level, which of course means the those who adhere to GV philosophy and practices must not appear as religious fanatics in any way. To preach to young people interested in becoming professionals in whatever field to leave school and join the asrama may be appropriate in some extremely rare cases, but definitely not as a general policy. The idea that unless one joins the asrama and gives up all connection with the "karmis" one is not living a spiritual life has done much damage in the personal lives of devotees and in the way GV is perceived by the rest of society. This is no way to ensure a robust future for individual practitioners or for GV as a whole. Far more effective is to have good spiritual guidance for those who are suited for living outside of the monastic context whereby such people can develop the vision to see what they are doing as part of the larger mission. Consciousness is the key, and I think preaching along those lines will ultimately prove far more fruitful than the "maya is bad--run to the hills" style.
Rathi Krishna Dasa - September 22, 2008 8:09 pm
I remember my temple president at one point telling me to quit college and how it was a waste of time, etc. Then I told him I only had a year left, he said, "Oh. Then I guess the damage is done and you might as well finish."
Prahlad Das - September 23, 2008 1:22 am
The basis for the discouragement of materialistic education is that FUNDAMENTALLY it [material education] is not needed for prema bhakti. This should be viewed more as an exception than a rule. An interesting topic. I don't think it is a useless position. There are many things being taught in our "higher education" which remind me of the story of the professor(?) and the boatman.
Prahlad Das - September 23, 2008 4:20 am
It has been said, "The purpose behind the philosophy is to go beyond the philosophy and attain bhakti". Bhakti doesn't have higher education as a prerequisite. Other things do. In the end, whether or not you have bhakti, (with or without a higher education) is all that matters.
Syamasundara - September 23, 2008 4:26 am
I'm not sure what is so touchy about this topic, at least here on the Tattva-viveka.
Precisely. Also, Yamuna, you might be enlivened to know that not only we have nothing to do with selling incense sticks, but GM had/has both Vrndaranya and Nitaisundara finish their education while being his personal servants.
Yamuna Dasi - September 23, 2008 9:00 am
QUOTE(Citta Hari dasa @ Sep 22 2008, 01:00 PM)I'm not sure what is so touchy about this topic, at least here on the Tattva-viveka.
Well, I thought it's a touchy topic because actually this kind of preaching and practice and advices towards his devotees are the style of a Guru, who is a friend of Maharaj and very powerful preacher with many disciples. This is what makes it maybe a touchy topic.
I know that he is doing it for Krishna, but I feel sorry for the style applied. If selling insence sticks or paintings is a kind of charming exotic experience during the young age of a person, it certainly is not so when one is older. And it's sad to see that so many devotees after some time remain without work and place in society due to such kind of preaching. And they also remain lonely and frustrated, after dedicating their best years of youth in service to the mission.
Also what hurt me is that in the story of this young devotee from Bulgaria, who was studying in the University for becoming a diplomat and his father was already pacified and happily left him even to live in the ashram, this boy was offered to leave the ashram and the University, donate his new computer and leave for the other side of the world with one way ticket in order to serve there. I really can't understand WHY? Who can say that the dharma of this young man is not to live in the ashram in his country and study and serve there, but rather to go far away to sell insence sticks on the streets? Is this right? Is this "the divine arrangement" and what Krishna wants for him? Or to stay where he is and to become a nice educated person, preaching also to his family, who were happy that he is in the ashram, and would have been really furious if he would have left.
Isn't a Guru expected to be more sencitive and careful when making such general sharp and sudden arrangeents for the life of a person, especialy if this person already lives in the ashram of another Guru, from whom he had asked for initiation?
I think that now it's more clear why I called the topic "touchy".
Politics in devotional life are never a sweet topic... they leave a bad taste and sad feeling... But if we don't talk about this, how can we solve it also? Even if it hurts talking...
Braja-sundari Dasi - September 23, 2008 9:23 am
I don`t know about other Vaishnava groups- but sometimes I observed this kind of preaching against "karmi" education in Iskcon. Some devotees I know were discouraged to finish their education, that`s true. But to be honest I have to say they were not very inclined to continue going to school. They were young, wanted to have some fun and just found temple life to be more exiting than school duties. So they were happy to hear someone else confirming their choice. Later most of them moved out from the temples. And you know what happened? They finished their education although working and having children. Why? They realized this is something valuable. They became mature. So personally I think it was good for them to experience temple life first.
I remember also opposite preaching. One brahmacarini was a good book distributor but she was studding medicine as well. She decided to give up her studies and dedicate herself only to book distribution. And ... she was refused recommendation for initiation before receiving her diploma. Result? First anger and frustration, calling temple president bad names ect, and now- she is successful manager in hospital, happy wife and mother of wonderful child ... and a temple president as well.
Syamasundara - September 23, 2008 9:58 am
All in all, your interventions seem very context-specific. I have never been to Bulgaria (although I heard great things about the rose petal jam!), but what I would suggest to you is to re-adjust your focus.
There are and there are going to be tons of weird or "off" things done by a specific devotee, or group of devotees, in a specific place or society.
What I noticed in general in your posts is that you tend to describe those context-specific instances as the gaudiya standard.
When I think of a gaudiya Vaishnava, I think of a totally different category of person, from the six gosvamis to today's saints. When we have dissertations about gaudiya behavior in relation to modern and current issues, we have them based on the sastric descriptions of a Vaisnava or sadhu, or their very life examples.
Why should we feel so concerned about the line of conduct that our neighbors have adopted? We should be concerned about people's perception of the movement of Sri Caitanyadeva, but the approach can be different.
Take our Swami (by the way, who is the maharaja you were referring to in the last post?), he has a pretty sharp picture of the situation in the present Vaisnava world, all the weird things you are getting exposed to, what the causes are, etc., but he doesn't spend his time denouncing what's wrong; rather, he's educating all the devotees around him to do things the right way from the beginning.
Every little song, every gesture in our liturgy at Audarya, the terminology we use due to GM's association, the landscape, the architecture, the clothes, and of course his talks, have a lot of deep thought behind them, whether it's apparent or not, and everything is done so that we don't repeat a certain mistake of the past, or develop a certain mentality of the present, but rather do everything the proper way, which is the devotional one, whether it looks traditional or not. Or at least that's my perception.
So, I can't really invite you to Audarya on their behalf, but I can humbly suggest you you keep exploring the previous posts on TV and reading the Sangas, and get acquainted with "our way" of thinking and doing things for the service of Mahaprabhu, and if you have doubts and questions, most people will be glad to discuss with you.
Otherwise, for the other instances you have mentioned recently, all we can do is metaphorically pat you on the shoulder, and say: "You're right, it's a shame." But no one will grow out of that.
Yamuna Dasi - September 23, 2008 10:49 am
All in all, your interventions seem very context-specific. I have never been to Bulgaria (although I heard great things about the rose petal jam!), but what I would suggest to you is to re-adjust your focus.There are and there are going to be tons of weird or "off" things done by a specific devotee, or group of devotees, in a specific place or society.
What I noticed in general in your posts is that you tend to describe those context-specific instances as the gaudiya standard.
When I think of a gaudiya Vaishnava, I think of a totally different category of person, from the six gosvamis to today's saints. When we have dissertations about gaudiya behavior in relation to modern and current issues, we have them based on the sastric descriptions of a Vaisnava or sadhu, or their very life examples.
Why should we feel so concerned about the line of conduct that our neighbors have adopted? We should be concerned about people's perception of the movement of Sri Caitanyadeva, but the approach can be different.
Take our Swami (by the way, who is the maharaja you were referring to in the last post?), he has a pretty sharp picture of the situation in the present Vaisnava world, all the weird things you are getting exposed to, what the causes are, etc., but he doesn't spend his time denouncing what's wrong; rather, he's educating all the devotees around him to do things the right way from the beginning.
Every little song, every gesture in our liturgy at Audarya, the terminology we use due to GM's association, the landscape, the architecture, the clothes, and of course his talks, have a lot of deep thought behind them, whether it's apparent or not, and everything is done so that we don't repeat a certain mistake of the past, or develop a certain mentality of the present, but rather do everything the proper way, which is the devotional one, whether it looks traditional or not. Or at least that's my perception.
So, I can't really invite you to Audarya on their behalf, but I can humbly suggest you you keep exploring the previous posts on TV and reading the Sangas, and get acquainted with "our way" of thinking and doing things for the service of Mahaprabhu, and if you have doubts and questions, most people will be glad to discuss with you.
Otherwise, for the other instances you have mentioned recently, all we can do is metaphorically pat you on the shoulder, and say: "You're right, it's a shame." But no one will grow out of that.
Thank you, Shyamasundara prabhu.
Actually I know Tripurari Maharaj from 20 years already, and I consider him also as my shiksha guru, that's why I am here in this forum. I like the delicate and sencitive way in which he is doing the things. Because in love finally it's all about details...
For example I was very impressed that when I called him like 8 months ago to ask him a blessing and permission to start translating Gita with his commentary, the first thing he asked me was "who is your shiksha guru now? who was taking care for you during all these years since your Gurudeva left this world?" I told him that this was and is my Godbrother Tirtha Maharaj and that I am very happy with him, but that I also am very inspired by him and his books and would like to come closer, and that Tirtha Maharaj knows my feelings and is very ok with them. But I was very very impressed by the soft and careful approach of Tripurari Maharaj, considering also the other Gurus and their role in the life of the devotee.
I was once again amazed that when I called him again 6 moths later, at the end of our conversation he gave obeisances to both my diksha guru Bhakti Abhay Narayan Maharaj and to my current shiksha guru Bhakti Kamala Tirtha Maharaj... He did not forget who was taking care for me before and who does it now! He was remembering the details...
This kind of so deeply sensitive and careful approach is not often seen... This is why I am here - I find Maharaj to be very finely tuned in every aspect seen by me till now, so I am here not only because I love his books, but also for this fine tuning. He is also my spiritual uncle (as he mentoned, I was perceiving him as such but didn't dare to verbalize it), so here I am, a guest in the home of my uncle, enjoying his sweet hospitality and the company of the other inhabitants ot this spiritual home. Let's hope that some day we can also enjoy taking prasadam together, with my dear cousins 
Sorry for not mentioning the name of this guru (as you requested), but I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings, and the feelings of some devotees here are connected with him.
Yamuna Dasi - September 23, 2008 11:08 am
All in all, your interventions seem very context-specific. I have never been to Bulgaria (although I heard great things about the rose petal jam!), but what I would suggest to you is to re-adjust your focus.
Well, what can I say. What I can see in the Scriptures is that all the stories and situations there are very context-specific. This is the main idea - to learn to apply the general truths, principles and ideals in specific situations. This is also why the Scriptures tell so many stories, so that amongst the huge variety of context-specific situations, we get the general and rafined tuning and idea of how to act in any situation in the best possible way. And any situation will of course be context-specific.
This is why I am not bothered that the situation I describe is as you mentioned "very context-specific", it can be naturaly expected to be so.
If someone is with the devotees for many years, he/she is expected to know what to do and how to act in the generally presented situations, so then comes the turn of the more context-specific ones...
Yamuna Dasi - September 23, 2008 11:16 am
Why should we feel so concerned about the line of conduct that our neighbors have adopted? We should be concerned about people's perception of the movement of Sri Caitanyadeva, but the approach can be different.
Because in this very context-specific situation our neighbours are exactly Gaudiya Vaisnavas and because their performance influences and forms people's perception of the movement of Sri Caitanyadeva.
Yamuna Dasi - September 23, 2008 11:31 am
Would you feel concerned if another Guru would offer a brahmachari, who lives in the ashram of your Gurudeva to leave the University and the ashram and go to serve in his own ashram at the other side of the world? Or you would look at this from a high philosophical point of view that this is a divine arranegement finally and do nothing?
How would you explain the situation to this new devotee, in the context of reality that he cannot possibly be at two places simultanously and that the advice of his own Guru to live in the ashram and serve there and at the same time graduate the University which he had started enters into direct contradiction with the service offer of the other Guru? And how would you explain this to a new devotee without confusing him and without criticizing the other Guru for being insensitive to do that?
Syamasundara - September 23, 2008 11:53 am
Thank you, Shyamasundara prabhu.Actually I know Tripurari Maharaj from 20 years already, and I consider him also as my shiksha guru, that's why I am here in this forum. I like the delicate and sencitive way in which he is doing the things. Because in love finally it's all about details...
For example I was very impressed that when I called him like 8 months ago to ask him a blessing and permission to start translating Gita with his commentary, the first thing he asked me was "who is your shiksha guru now? who was taking care for you during all these years since your Gurudeva left this world?" I told him that this was and is my Godbrother Tirtha Maharaj and that I am very happy with him, but that I also am very inspired by him and his books and would like to come closer, and that Tirtha Maharaj knows my feelings and is very ok with them. But I was very very impressed by the soft and careful approach of Tripurari Maharaj, considering also the other Gurus and their role in the life of the devotee.
I was once again amazed that when I called him again 6 moths later, at the end of our conversation he gave obeisances to both my diksha guru Bhakti Abhay Narayan Maharaj and to my current shiksha guru Bhakti Kamala Tirtha Maharaj... He did not forget who was taking care for me before and who does it now! He was remembering the details...
Yes, that' him!
Sorry for not mentioning the name of this guru (as you requested), but I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings, and the feelings of some devotees here are connected with him.
I never asked for the name. You said: "this kind of preaching and practice and advices towards his devotees are the style of a Guru, who is a friend of Maharaj" as if we were supposed to know which maharaja. Or maybe I was the one who didn't know, so I was trying to catch up.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - September 23, 2008 11:29 pm
Well, I thought it's a touchy topic because actually this kind of preaching and practice and advices towards his devotees are the style of a Guru, who is a friend of Maharaj and very powerful preacher with many disciples. This is what makes it maybe a touchy topic.
of which maharaja?
Prahlad Das - September 23, 2008 11:53 pm
LOL, our curiosities have piqued
Yamuna Dasi - September 23, 2008 11:57 pm
I would give a name only if Tripurari Maharaj would say so. Otherwise I think that we can just discuss it as a topic in Questions & Answers, as I put it, not starting a political topic.
Audarya-lila Dasa - September 24, 2008 1:21 am
I think the obvious answer is that the new devotee should be careful and not take just anyone's advice. They should be informed that devotees in general are their ever well wishers but that for specific instructions/advice in terms of big decisions, like leaving home with a one way ticket and giving a computer that your father purchased for you to facilitate your studies away, the person should have very detailed information about your personal life and you should have a great deal of love and trust in such a person. On face value this looks like ridiculous advice and I would hope that this young devotee can listen to his own consciousness and ascertain if that is so.
However, we are also discussing an issue without detailed information. How does he feel about his education at the University? What is his relationship with his advisor? Does he wish to travel? Without having more detailed information we are left with speculation and conjecture which is a useless endeavor. We can assume from the limited information that you have given us that his parents are open to his spiritual endeavors (possibly cautious enough to allow him his individuality or maybe powerless to stop it) and that they are supportive of his education as well but we can't understand anything more than that.
Position in society, material gain and prosperity, material education etc can certainly be impediments to bhakti. They don't have to be, but they most certainly can be. The key point in terms of this individual's life is his development as a devotee. Without that then all the material position and prosperity are meaningless.
In general I certainly agree with the basic premise you seem to be suggesting. Most devotees will be family people and will need to be engaged with the world in order to maintain their families. The life of renunciation is only for a small sub-set of the population when we are talking about young people. A good course of action might be to either postpone one's material education in order to develop spiritual insight and discipline under good guidance and then pick it up again, or conversely complete the course of education and prior to starting in on a career spend some time in deep and steady spiritual practice. I personally think that would be a good avenue to pursue because once a person moves into a career and possbily married life, it is difficult to find the time to practice with deep concentration.
The bigger problem in the international Gaudiya Vaishnava community is that there are many devotees who have been involved for long periods of time and yet their progress is very limited and the way they represent the lineage to others is dogmatic and even oppressive at times. I personally believe this is because of a lack of qualified leaders and also a lack of humility and deep understanding of the need for good guidance.
Prahlad Das - September 24, 2008 4:25 am
I hate to post this after your wonderful statements above, Audarya Lila Prabhu, since it will be somewhat hidden in the new post searches by my post. It definitely warrants reading. If anyone hasn't read it yet, please do.
Some more thoughts I had in this regard:
From a different perspective... Can one cultivate bhakti into suddha bhakti without getting their PhD or Masters in Quantum Physics or Sociology etc...? If the answer is yes then what is the point of this question?
As Audarya Lila said, it is up to the inquirer as to whom they listen to. If I were to make a decision based on someone else's advice, I would be held accountable for my dissatisfaction of my decision in all honest respects. Some people may like to take up spirituality and think that it has nothing to do with selling incense or flowers or art or books or cleaning toilets for that matter. In the end the spirituality of what you do is in the way you do it. One must be careful to not perform pranipat, pariprasna and seva in a rhetorical way to Guru. There is a daoist saying one must empty themselves before they can fill themselves.
If going to a University will increase your Krsna Consciousness then all the better (as the aforementioned story of Yuddhisthir suggests), however if it increases one's pratishta (false pride) then what? You will get a nice job, nice house, nice car, nice social life, nice status.
With regards to selling incense and art, is this an activity fit to be disrespected? I've heard of a Great Vaishnava selling the fishing rights to the lakes owned by the Murtis of the Matha. It is amazing what one can justify, nay, appreciate out of love, even in the face of opposition. If someone were to approach their spiritual master, receive instruction, act on those instructions, then later find themselves distracted by other thoughts and no longer interested in performing the duties of a disciple to their spiritual master, then they can be assured that they have pleased Hari, Guru, and Vaishnava, and thus will not have any diminution of their positive progress in spiritual life.
nehabhikrama-naso 'sti
pratyavayo na vidyate
svalpam apy asya dharmasya
trayate mahato bhayat
In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear.
BG 2.40
This is barring aparadha due to lack of humility, of course.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - September 24, 2008 3:02 pm
I would give a name only if Tripurari Maharaj would say so. Otherwise I think that we can just discuss it as a topic in Questions & Answers, as I put it, not starting a political topic.
i just said whose friend is he your GM or tripurari maharaj's? Not the identity of the person.
Syamasundara - September 24, 2008 7:08 pm
i just said whose friend is he your GM or tripurari maharaj's? Not the identity of the person.
And that's pretty much what we all meant.
Not to hammer on it, Yamunaji, but this is another instance (hoping you won't feel spotlighted) of someone saying something, and you finding more meaning in the words used, and going off a little tangent.
Nobody asked for the name, we were just wondering: "Why mention that someone is someone else's friend, if that has no relevance, or nothing can be said about either?"
Yamuna Dasi - September 24, 2008 11:45 pm
i just said whose friend is he your GM or tripurari maharaj's? Not the identity of the person.
Tripurari Maharaj's friend.
Yamuna Dasi - September 24, 2008 11:54 pm
And that's pretty much what we all meant.
Not to hammer on it, Yamunaji, but this is another instance (hoping you won't feel spotlighted) of someone saying something, and you finding more meaning in the words used, and going off a little tangent.
Nobody asked for the name, we were just wondering: "Why mention that someone is someone else's friend, if that has no relevance, or nothing can be said about either?"
I mentioned that this Guru is a friend of Tripurari Maharaj in order to respond the question why did I consider the topic "touchy". My mentioning this has relevance to why is it touchy.
We are discussing the topic, so obviously much can be said about it even if not discussing the personality of that Guru.
And yes, you did hammer on it. 
Yamuna Dasi - September 25, 2008 12:11 am
Also as I mentioned in the other topic regarding adoption, what makes the topic touchy is rather that somehow my opinion contradicts what is preached by a Guru. And somehow I am wondering how can I simultaneoulsy follow the vaishnava etiquet and still object a statement coming from a Guru if I see no shastric support for it and find it materialistic and heartless. If I speak openly, then all the disciples of this Guru would most probably see me as an offender, both to their Guru and to their own feelings towards him.
This is rather the touchy aspect in both topics (this one and the adoption one), not so much that this Guru is a friend of Tripurari Maharaj, but that he is a Guru and any objection from my side regarding his preaching could be seen as offensive. So I was trying to check the validity of my objection from siddhanta point of view.
Prahlad Das - September 25, 2008 12:31 am
Also as I mentioned in the other topic regarding adoption, what makes the topic touchy is rather that somehow my opinion contradicts what is preached by a Guru. And somehow I am wondering how can I simultaneoulsy follow the vaishnava etiquet and still object a statement coming from a Guru if I see no shastric support for it and find it materialistic and heartless. If I speak openly, then all the disciples of this Guru would most probably see me as an offender, both to their Guru and to their own feelings towards him.
This is rather the touchy aspect in both topics (this one and the adoption one), not so much that this Guru is a friend of Tripurari Maharaj, but that he is a Guru and any objection from my side regarding his preaching could be seen as offensive. So I was trying to check the validity of my objection from siddhanta point of view.
Please, everyone, may I suggest we stick to the questions at hand and not wonder about the personalities who might be involved.
I am curious to see what all the devotees have to say about this subject rather than having personal involvement. Thank you for your endeavor of etiquette Yamuna.
Rathi Krishna Dasa - September 25, 2008 12:17 pm
From the New York Times:
Head of the Class: Questions for Charles Murray
Charles Murray, widely known as a co-author of The Bell Curve, is a self-proclaimed Libertarian and member of the conservative think tank, The American Enterprise Institute. He has a new book out called Real Education which has the subtitle of "Four Simple Truths for Bringing American Schools Back to Reality," where Murray argues that 80% of college students are wasting their time and money. In the article he declares that Real Education is a distillation of he thoughts since The Bell Curve.
While the interview is very condensed, you quickly get the gist of Murray. It features the following gems.
I believe that given the opportunity, most people could do most anything.
You’re out of touch with reality in that regard. You have not hung around with kids who are well in the lower half of the ability distribution.
What do you make of the fact that John McCain was ranked 894 in a class of 899 when he graduated from the U.S. Naval Academy?
I like to think that the reason he ranked so low is that he was out drinking beer, as opposed to just unable to learn stuff.
Why is the McCain clan so eager to advertise its anti-intellectualism?
The last thing we need are more pointy-headed intellectuals running the government. Probably the smartest president we’ve had in terms of I.Q. in the last 50 years was Jimmy Carter, and I think he is the worst president of the last 50 years.
Aren’t think tanks basically welfare for intellectuals?
Actually, the interesting thing there is the extent to which it’s the think tanks in the last 15 years that have been producing the stuff that has had the most effect on the debate, as opposed to colleges.
Vamsidhari Dasa - September 25, 2008 5:42 pm
I would like to offer another preaching dictum that might be more appropriate for you group even though I would don like to be perceived as a preacher:
"PLEASE GO TO THE UNIVERSITY, IT WILL DISPEL THE DARKNESS OF IGNORANCE AND POISON OF RELIGIOUS FUNDAMENTALISM"
Thank you.
Swami - September 25, 2008 7:04 pm
Regarding my friends, we don't always agree but that is how I know that they are my friends: They like me any way.
Vamisdhari,
Some universities teach religious fundamentalism!
Vamsidhari Dasa - September 25, 2008 7:39 pm
Regarding my friends, we don't always agree but that is how I know that they are my friends: They like me any way.
Vamisdhari,
Some universities teach religious fundamentalism!
Dandavat!
That is true! Thanks for pointing that out. Somehow I don't think of them as Universities as much as Training Camps.
I was more reacting to "teaching materialism" actually there are many classes in the curricula of reputable schools that include different kinds of "spiritualisms." Just because someone teaches something it does not mean that one needs to accept it. It is not so bad to know that there is a "materialistic" point of view, hard sciences, soft sciences, humanism, and all other facets of education, otherwise what would we have to push ourselves against? What you know it cannot hurt you!
Gaura-Vijaya Das - September 28, 2008 4:34 pm
Dandavat!That is true! Thanks for pointing that out. Somehow I don't think of them as Universities as much as Training Camps.
I was more reacting to "teaching materialism" actually there are many classes in the curricula of reputable schools that include different kinds of "spiritualisms." Just because someone teaches something it does not mean that one needs to accept it. It is not so bad to know that there is a "materialistic" point of view, hard sciences, soft sciences, humanism, and all other facets of education, otherwise what would we have to push ourselves against? What you know it cannot hurt you!
Also I like to point out that two people who helped me a lot in spiritual life GM and RNS have no higher education so if somebody actually can go for self realization without higher education then there should be no problem!!
But like Braja Sundari pointed out, it is too frustrating to be in school for many people; therefore they need some valid reason to leave and I have felt like that also.
Yamuna Dasi - September 29, 2008 12:05 am
I also left two Universities after studying 2 years in each of them and was not regretting it, but none of the times I left was because of an advice from my Gurudeva to leave University. If people would respect more bhakti-yoga if preached by professionals living amongst them, I would advice any new devotee to do it if he/she can.
I was also bothered when seeing some elder devotees after many years of service being left on the street without shelter and care, after they had dedicated their best years in some ashram or temple selfless service. And when they are at certain age or if that ashram or temple just stops to exist for some reason, they remain alone and nobody cares for them. Or even if the ashram or temple continue to exist, but that devotee fell ill, nobody cares. If the proper time for settling one’s life materially is 18-40 let’s say, if one dedicates this time to service in an ashram or temple and then remains on the street, it would be very hard for this devotee to start a study or a career at this age.
Maybe my concerns might seem very materialistic and myself not trusting enough in divine mercy and Krishna’s care for his devotees, but I am just trying to find the best way for the future spreading of GV in our society as a respected spiritual path and if University education is part of it, let it be! The reason for starting this topic was because of feeling worried seeing some Gurus preaching strongly in direction “leave everything and join the ashram and temple for complete service and surrender”. What my Gurudeva told us 16 years ago was that the main idea in preaching Krishna Consciousness is not to get as many people as possible and send them to live in the ashrams, but rather to take KC to the homes of the people and to their hearts. Ashram life is very good and helpful, but is not the lifetime practice for most people so we have to consider this as well when giving advices like “leave everything and join an ashram” to take complete responsibility and care for that person if he/she would follow such an advice.