Home

Forums

Topics

Members

Tattva-viveka

Siksastakam, Verse 1

Swami - October 17, 2008 5:05 pm

So let the discussion begin!

It is interesting to note that Mahaprabhu's verses are entitled "Siksastakam." Any thoughts?

Gaura-Vijaya Das - October 17, 2008 6:25 pm

So let the discussion begin!

 

It is interesting to note that Mahaprabhu's verses are entitled "Siksastakam." Any thoughts?

I think of the verses as crystallizing or summarizing all theological teachings(siksha) into eight verses(astakam). It is like getting super condensed milk fitting a small jar from gallons of normal milk.Also it is a compressed code expressing the transformation of human emotion: from baser emotion like lust to the extraordinary emotion of prema. It shows human emotion is central to human existence and the essential knowledge consisting in directing this emotion to the super complete expression of Godhead as svayam bhagavan krsna.

Margaret Dale - October 17, 2008 6:26 pm

Totally cheating - Someone wrote a Wikipedia article, quoted Satsvarupa dasa Goswami, and explained that "Śikṣa means 'instruction', and aṣṭaka means 'eight'". So it is the eight verses of instruction that we have from Mahaprabhu.

A thought from that - I guess I usually think of the verses as a description or a glorification of bhakti. I guess I don't usually think of them as instruction, but if this is the meaning of the name, then it implies that the reason they are given is to guide us along that path. This is the highest prema that Mahaprabhu came to give and this is the guidebook of how to get there.

I actually find that a bit overwhelming, kind of scary. That's a tall order.

Bhrigu - October 17, 2008 7:01 pm

I liked the way how you showed the progression of how the Siksastakam has been understood, Guru Maharaja, from Rupa Goswami's Padyavali to the insights of Bhaktivinoda Thakur. I guess the term Siksastaka was invented by Krishnadas Kaviraj Goswami, to bring all the verses together into one packet, as it were. Your book really brings out their interconnectedness.

Braja-sundari Dasi - October 17, 2008 8:47 pm

"Śikṣa means 'instruction', and aṣṭaka means 'eight'".

Many important prayers are written in the astakam form: Gurvastakam, Namastakam, Damodarastakam and others. It seems that this is common way of gloryfying someone/something in Sanskrit poetry but why... I have no idea... Perhaps it has something to do with number 8 that is considered auspicious.

Guru-nistha Das - October 18, 2008 4:05 am

Nitaisundara, Vrindaranya and myself talked about this briefly over dinner prasad and I'll just expand here on what I heard from Vrindaranya:

It's interesting that Siksastakam is considered "astakam" because if you think of any other astakam, the meter is uniform throughout the prayer, whereas Siksastakam prayers are not. Verses two, four and five seem to be of same meter, otherwise not.

Like Bhrigu said, maybe Krsna dasa Kaviraja wanted to put emphasis on the point that these verses actually go together, although they weren't necessarily composed with that in mind, or at least Rupa Goswami didn't seem to consider as verses of one poem.

Pretty ingenious on Krsna dasa's part to arrange them as they are now! The order perfectly supports the progression from sraddha to prema that is mentioned in Bhakti-Rasamrta Sindhu. Imagine if you just had the eight poems, how would you put them together?

Another interesting point is that although it's called "siksa", Mahaprabhu doesn't really give any specific instructions, other than maybe in verse three. It's more like bursting out his own feeling and teaching through that, as a real-life example. Guru Maharaja actually speaks about this in the commentary to the first verse, pointing out that Krsna had to appear as Gaura first to taste Radha's love, and only then was he able to teach it to the world. So from this one could conclude that one has to taste first before teaching, and in fact, the essence of teaching is tasting, only that enables a true transmission of the spiritual current.

Teaching means imparting knowledge, and the knowledge of the siksastakam is "vidya-vadhu", as the first sloka states. The knowledge taught by Mahaprabhu only comes from service and surrender, as a gift from above, and thus cannot be deficient as any attempt of our own is.

Syamasundara - October 18, 2008 6:42 am

I love it, so many remarkable and enlivening points from only the name of the poem! This is gonna be good...

Rama-priya - October 18, 2008 10:19 am

As I understand Siksastakam means 8 prayers of Mahaprabhu, spoken by him out of ecstasy. This eight prayers can be compared to eight stages of devotion beginning from sraddha to prema. On the another side, first prayer includes all of these stages in a nutshell in order to built faith in the effects of nama sankirtana.

Babhru Das - October 18, 2008 10:21 am

I was apparently a little slow on the draw here, and Swami got us going before I could start a thread for this chapter. I'm going to start the thread now. Would someone with admin privileges please move this discussion to that thread, starting with Swami's prompt yesterday morning?

Babhru Das - October 18, 2008 2:13 pm

Thank you.

Swami - October 18, 2008 5:28 pm

Gurunistha/Vrindaranya and Bhrigu have understood my interest in bringing up the name "Siksastakam." In reality the verses were not written as an astakam, nor as siksa per say. It was the theologizing of Sri Krsnadasa that set Mahaprabhu's verses in this direction. Here is what he says:

purva asata sloka kari' loke siksa dila

sei asta-slokers artha apane asvadila

"Previously he composed these eight slokas and thus instructed people, and now (in the lila being narrated) he tasted their meaning himself."

prabhura "siksastaka" sloka yei pade, sune

krsne prema-hakti tara bade dine-dine

"If anyone recites or hears these 'siksastaka' verses, his or her love and devotion for Krsna increases day by day."

But that is not to say that they were not intended to be thought of in this way. The mind of the Lord is revealed through the heart and words of his devotees. It is a living tradition, one in which Bhaktivinoda Thakura figures prominently. He has taken he lead of Krsnadasa Kaviraja 400 years later, and in doing so taken the significance of Siksastakam to new heights.

Swami - October 18, 2008 8:37 pm

It is good for everyone to have learned herein what the two words that make up siksa astakam mean and that astakam's are common, such as guruvastakam (which we sing every morning), damodarastakam (which we sing this month of Kartika), etc. Thank you for contributing this information Margaret and Braja-sundarai respectively. Everyone should commit this to memory. I would also like to point out that very few devotees are aware of the points that have been raised on the thread concerning the significance of the title "Siksastakam." So those participating are on the cutting edge here. Good to have your company.

Before we go ahead, does anyone else have a point to raise in this connection? Does anyone need more clarification? Don't be dumb with regard to what you might think are stupid questions (pun intended).

I guess for the moment I am doing a bit of moderating. Just following my inspiration.

Jiva-daya Dasa - October 18, 2008 8:59 pm

I was thinking that the verses are refered to in part as «siksa» with regards to the fact that Mahaprabhu was revolutionary for bringing these points to the masses and laying out the path of bhakti for us. This is what a teacher does when instructing - educate and inspire the public. I know this isn't much to add, but this connection seems significant to me and is always on my mind when I think of these verses. Thanks to Maharaja for the reassuring comments about novice participation.

Madan Gopal Das - October 18, 2008 10:17 pm

Before we go ahead, does anyone else have a point to raise in this connection?

I really appreciate the point that our teaching is a living thing, that it is manifest from the hearts of the devotees and that in this example Krsnadasa Kaviraja and Bhaktivinoda have churned more nectar, created a vision of the verses, etc. Apart from this point, do we have any evidence of what context the verses were originally spoken, at what times, separately or together in any varying order by Mahaprabhu? GM mentions that the verses appear in Padyavali, and I'm just wondering if there is any context there. How does Sri Rupa speak about Mahaprabhu speaking them? Also, Guru Maharaj, you mention that there are some additional verses there that I get the impression are authored by Mahaprabhu. What are these? I have heard you say before that besides Siksastakam there are only two(?) more verses attributed to Mahaprabhu. Is this where they come from, Padyavali? I know one is naham vipro..., what is the other?

Gaurangi-priya Devi - October 18, 2008 10:20 pm

First of all I would like to say that this is so inspiring to have this study group. It is encouraging to be reading thinking of all of you reading the same thing at the same time. And in an effort to not remain dumb, here is my simple participation.

I was pondering Gurumaharaj's question, and like Gurunishta pointed out, was thinking how the Siksastakam isn't so much instructions from Mahaprabhu, but his feeling and ecstasy. It is the mercy of the pure Vaisnavas, Krsnadasa Kaviraj, Bhaktivinod Thakur, and now Gurumaharaj, to take these verses and extract the deep siksa from them. The siksa comes from them. It then made me think again of how our philosophy is so much about not approaching the Lord directly, but through parampara, and approaching the Guru and sadhus. And though it may look like we are farther away from the Lord, in truth we are closer to him, through the understanding of the Vaisnavas. It's spiritual mathematics.

Rama-priya - October 19, 2008 6:07 am

Apart from this point, do we have any evidence of what context the verses were originally spoken, at what times, separately or together in any varying order by Mahaprabhu? GM mentions that the verses appear in Padyavali, and I'm just wondering if there is any context there. How does Sri Rupa speak about Mahaprabhu speaking them?

Siksatakam verses appear in Caitanya-caritamrta. Therein Krsnadasa kaviraja speaks that these verses were spoken by Mahaprabhu to Ramananda Raya and Svarupa Damodara at the end of His manifest lila

Gandiva Dasi - October 19, 2008 6:11 am

Thankyou all for this study group, and the encouragemenet to join in, I didn't know the verses were put in the present order by Krsna das Kaviraja, but I guess I never really envisioned Caitanya Mahaprabhu speaking them all in a row as siksa so to speak, but more personal realizations surfacing

Dhanurdhara Maharaj just happened to mention astakams recently in his last kartika journal entry ;

[Japa Thought I

Today I visited a friend, a serious sadhaka, who is here in Govardhana for Karttika. He shared his sincere objective for this month “to chant with affection.” He asked my opinion. I offered my humble realization:

“Affection comes from the experience of mercy. Mercy requires humility. If we want to chant with affection we have to beg the acaryas for help and experience their mercy.”

He then shared with me Maha-nidhi Swami's advice to him:

"“The Gosvamis wrote astakams (prayers in eight verses) exactly for this reason. They didn't just write them for others. The astakams always end with a benediction that one will get devotion if they were chanted sincerely. Their actual method was to chant these astakams and pay full obeisances with each stanza, imbibing the meaning of the prayer and begging for mercy. That's substantiated in the sixth verse of the Sri Sad-gosvami-astakam where it is described that the Gosvamis ‘were engaged in chanting the holy names of the Lord and bowing down in a scheduled measurement.’ So this was their method for developing affection for nama bhajan.”]

So the benediction at the end of siksastakam? an invitation to taste the highest love, selfless love, vraja prema,

and Krsna das Kaviraj gives the benediction "If anyone recites or hears these 'siksastaka' verses, his or her love and devotion for Krsna increases day by day."

Bijaya Kumara Das - October 19, 2008 7:19 am

It is good for everyone to have learned herein what the two words that make up siksa astakam mean and that astakam's are common, such as guruvastakam (which we sing every morning), damodarastakam (which we sing this month of Kartika), etc. Thank you for contributing this information Margaret and Braja-sundarai respectively. Everyone should commit this to memory. I would also like to point out that very few devotees are aware of the points that have been raised on the thread concerning the significance of the title "Siksastakam." So those participating are on the cutting edge here. Good to have your company.

 

Before we go ahead, does anyone else have a point to raise in this connection? Does anyone need more clarification? Don't be dumb with regard to what you might think are stupid questions (pun intended).

 

I guess for the moment I am doing a bit of moderating. Just following my inspiration.

yes Guru Maharaja. What first came to my mind was learning (siksha) about the 8 (astakam) principal gopis (bhava). I may be way off base but this is what came to mind.

Sorry for being so late to this discussion

Bijaya Kumara Das - October 19, 2008 7:39 am

So let the discussion begin!

 

It is interesting to note that Mahaprabhu's verses are entitled "Siksastakam." Any thoughts?

While listening to Ksirodaksayi read the first verse out loud to me what had jumped out at me was "To maintain his sense of self as the king of love, Krsna had to taste Radha's love......... The essence of his tasting and his teaching is found in his eight stanzas know as

Siksastakam."

Bhrigu - October 19, 2008 2:18 pm

This is how the verses are presented in the Padyavali, Madangopalji:

Verse 1 of the SA is verse 22 of Padyavali, under the heading Nama-mahatmya, Greatness of the Holy Name. The author is given as Bhagavan Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu

Verse 2 is verse 31, same heading, author Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu

Verse 3 is verse 32, heading Nama-kirtana, Glorification of the Holy Name, author Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu

Verse 5 is verse 71, Bhaktanam mahatmyam, Greatness of the Devotees, author Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu

Then comes the "naham vipro..." as verse 74, Bhaktanam nistha, Faith of the Devotees, author Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. It is interesting to consider why this verse was not included in the Siksastaka (of course, if there were nine, one had to be left out)

Verse 6 is verse 94, Bhaktanam sautsukhya-prarthana, Earnest Prayers of the Devotees, author Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Verse 4 is verse 95, same.

Verse 7 is verse 328, Sri Radhayah vilapa, Radha's Lament, author Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Verse 8 is verse 341, same.

In other words, contrary to how I remembered it, the order is with only one exception the same as in the Siksastaka. However, Mahaprabhu's verses are not marked out in any way; all the headings mentioned have many other verses as well by different authors.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - October 19, 2008 3:13 pm

It is good for everyone to have learned herein what the two words that make up siksa astakam mean and that astakam's are common, such as guruvastakam (which we sing every morning), damodarastakam (which we sing this month of Kartika), etc. Thank you for contributing this information Margaret and Braja-sundarai respectively. Everyone should commit this to memory. I would also like to point out that very few devotees are aware of the points that have been raised on the thread concerning the significance of the title "Siksastakam." So those participating are on the cutting edge here. Good to have your company.

 

Before we go ahead, does anyone else have a point to raise in this connection? Does anyone need more clarification? Don't be dumb with regard to what you might think are stupid questions (pun intended).

 

I guess for the moment I am doing a bit of moderating. Just following my inspiration.

I think that Mahaprabhu doesn't need to taste Radha's love in the material realm unless he wants to instruct souls here on her love. He already has a spiritual realm where he is absorbed in the mood of Radharani so he doesn't need to just come here to absorb himself there. He wants to show the soul what love for Krsna means and what internal emotions are a part of that love.

Atmananda Dasa - October 19, 2008 3:21 pm

Gurunistha/Vrindaranya and Bhrigu have understood my interest in bringing up the name "Siksastakam." In reality the verses were not written as an astakam, nor as siksa per say. It was the theologizing of Sri Krsnadasa that set Mahaprabhu's verses in this direction. Here is what he says:

 

purva asata sloka kari' loke siksa dila

sei asta-slokers artha apane asvadila

 

"Previously he composed these eight slokas and thus instructed people, and now (in the lila being narrated) he tasted their meaning himself."

 

prabhura "siksastaka" sloka yei pade, sune

krsne prema-hakti tara bade dine-dine

 

"If anyone recites or hears these 'siksastaka' verses, his or her love and devotion for Krsna increases day by day."

 

But that is not to say that they were not intended to be thought of in this way. The mind of the Lord is revealed through the heart and words of his devotees. It is a living tradition, one in which Bhaktivinoda Thakura figures prominently. He has taken he lead of Krsnadasa Kaviraja 400 years later, and in doing so taken the significance of Siksastakam to new heights.

Where are the above verses found?

I have heard it said that the siksastakam verses were the only verses that Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu had actually written. There understanding that I have gotten from this discussion is that they were spoken by Mahaprabhu and written down by Srila Svarup Damodara Goswami and later included in Padyavali by Sri Rupa Goswami and then arranged in the order that we presently know them and given the title Siksatakam by Srila Krsna das Kaviraja in CC.

Atmananda Dasa - October 19, 2008 3:35 pm

I was pondering Gurumaharaj's question, and like Gurunishta pointed out, was thinking how the Siksastakam isn't so much instructions from Mahaprabhu, but his feeling and ecstasy. It is the mercy of the pure Vaisnavas, Krsnadasa Kaviraj, Bhaktivinod Thakur, and now Gurumaharaj, to take these verses and extract the deep siksa from them. The siksa comes from them.

Swami has written in the introduction:

"Studying Bhaktivinoda Thakura's commentary, I felt that out of his mercy he had left some service for his followers to take up in the form of elaborating on his illustious Sri Sanmodana-bhasyam."

I felt exuberance upon reading this and remembering a film that I had seen of Srila Prabhupada sitting in a room with his disciples in Los Angeles. I will paraphrase the conversation. Srila Prabhupada says, So, all the big men are here, why is the book not finished. (I assume that he was referring to the Caitanya Caritamrta). They all looked stunned. Everyone was silent. Then Visnujana Swami said, I have heard that Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura said that he is leaving this world with his work unfinished. Srila Prabhupada replied, So it is for you to finish. That is his mercy that he has left something for you to do. He is Vaisnava, all powerful. He can do everything in a moment, but he has left something for you to do. That is his mercy.

Margaret Dale - October 19, 2008 4:17 pm

Bhrigu,

I don't have the Padyavali. Could you write out the whole extra verse and its translation for us? Thanks.

Bhrigu - October 19, 2008 4:25 pm

Sorry for that, Margaret. It is a famous verse and I took for granted that everyone would know, which was dumb. It is quoted in e.g. Caitanya-caritamrita 2.13.80

naham vipro na ca nara-patir napi vaisyo na sudro

naham varni na ca griha-patir no vana-stho yatir va

kintu prodyan nikhila-paramananda-purnamritabdher

gopi-bhartuh pada-kamalayor dasa-dasanudasah

"I am not a brahmana, not a kshatriya, not a vaishya nor a shudra.

I am not a brahmacari, not a grihastha, not a vanaprastha nor a sannyasi,

but I am the servant of the servant of the servant of the lotus feet of

the master of the gopis, an ocean full of all varieties of the highest bliss."

Madan Gopal Das - October 19, 2008 4:40 pm

It is interesting Bhrigu, your question as to why this verse was not included in Siksastakam. It would make sense too in the progression we have, maybe after na dhanam na janam, na sundarim. Interesting thought.

Can anyone reference one other verse that GM says is attributed to Mahaprabhu (besides Siksastakam and the above verse), or am I just imagining it? No, I almost remember it, but can't quite get it... Help!

Atmananda, the verses about Siksastakam you asked about are from C.C., Antya 20.64,65

Syamasundara - October 19, 2008 4:56 pm

Can anyone reference one other verse that GM says is attributed to Mahaprabhu (besides Siksastakam and the above verse), or am I just imagining it? No, I almost remember it, but can't quite get it... Help

I know, me either! Unless it's

hari haraye namah krsna yadavaya namah

gopala govinda rama sri madhusudana

The Jagannathastaka is also by Mahaprabhu, incidentally.

Gaurasundara Das - October 19, 2008 5:12 pm

I am going to guess that its " Hands raised I declare, Listen all! String this stanza on the thread of nama as a garland around your neck" In the notes to chapter 3 of Siksastakam Guru Maharaj says " This verse may also be attributed to Mahaprabhu himself"

sorry I dont know the sanskrit

The notes at the end of the book are really great.

Bhrigu - October 19, 2008 6:25 pm

I think Guru Maharaja refers to this verse:

shrutam apy aupanishadam

dure hari-kathamritat

yan na santi dravac-citta-

kampashru-pulakadayah

The message of the Upanishads is far from the nectar topics of Lord Hari. For this reason Upanishad study does not result in a heart melting with emotion, or ecstatic symptoms, such as trembling, shedding tears, or standing of hairs on the body.

If I remember correctly, Guru Maharaja says that Jiva Goswami says that this verse is by Mahaprabhu. However, in the Padyavali (39) it is attributed to Shri Bhagavan Vyasapada.

Swami - October 19, 2008 11:38 pm

Gaurangi-priya: Good realization. This is essentially what we need to realize from the theologizing of Sri Krsnadasa, Thakura Bhaktivinode, etc.—that we can know Krsna better through his devotees. Very good.

Rama-priya: In attempting to answer Madan Gopala you have not carefully examined what Krsnadasa Kaviraja has written. This holds true for Atmanada's conclusion as well. Krsna dasa writes,

purva asata sloka kari' loke siksa dila

sei asta-slokers artha apane asvadila

"Previously he composed these eight slokas and thus instructed people, and now (in the lila being narrated) he tasted their meaning himself."

The "now" is with Ramanada and Svarupa, but apparently sometime earlier Mahaprabhu composed the verses. We do not have any record of this.

Atmanada: Furthermore whatever Rupa Goswami wrote (such as Padyavali) would have been prior to the works of Krsnadasa Kaviraja (such as Cc).

Gandiva: “So the benediction at the end of siksastakam? an invitation to taste the highest love, selfless love, vraja prema,

and Krsna das Kaviraj gives the benediction "If anyone recites or hears these 'siksastaka' verses, his or her love and devotion for Krsna increases day by day."

Relative to the discussion, again, Siksastakam is not a typical astakam in that it has no phala stuti or bnediction verse that tells of the results derived from reciting the astakam. Siksastakam's eigth verse is not such a phala stuti. However, the benediction of Krsnadasa Kaviraja you cited is a phala stuti (as you have understood) in Bengali that he has added to his theologized siksastakam.

Syamasundara: contrary to popular opinion (among Gaudiyas) there is no evidence to support the idea that Mahaprabhu wrote Jagannathastakam.

Bijaya Kumara: Yes, you were way off on the idea that astakam somehow referred to the asta sakhi (eight gopis).

Bhigu: You have correctly identified the two other verses said to have been composed by Mahaprabhu. And your memory serves you well with regrd to authorship. Remember Sri Jiva’s Sat-sandarbha was written after Padyavali. Furthermore this verse is not very characteristic of Vyasa, with its mention of ecstatic symptoms, etc. He characteristically wrote not so openly even about bhakti (thus the need for the Bhagavatam), not to speak of Hari Katha vs Upanisads.I have also written something else about this authorship controversy in Sanga. Those interested can find it in the archives.

Gaurasundara: A valiant and creative try and interesting angle. But it’s not a Sanskrit verse and amounts to at best Sri Krsnadasa paraphrasing Mahaprabhu.

.............

So I think we should move ahead. When I gave a copy of our text to Jayadvaita Swami he began reading the commentary on the first verse and then he stopped to ask "What is this?" with regard to the italicized section it begins with. Any thoughts?

Radhanama Dasa - October 20, 2008 12:45 am

with regard to the italicized section

Guru Maharaja it seems to me that you are setting the stage, if you will, for us. Letting us in on how Gaura got to the point where he had to write these verses, "you did it, now admit it" as you've said, in order to receive the mercy of her devotees which then allows him to understand Sri Radika's love for him. I really like these opening paragraphs a lot.

Madan Gopal Das - October 20, 2008 12:59 am

"What is this?" with regard to the italicized section.

I think this is Swami-bhavanamrtam! Deep, deep nectar. I received a letter from you at some point when you were working on the book and you said that you were deep in that ocean, learning to breathe in the water. You'd get back to me when you decided to come up for air. I think the italicized part is some of what you found down deep in that ocean.

Margaret Dale - October 20, 2008 1:00 am

I apologize, I'm a little confused by the apology aspect of the opening paragraphs. The viewpoint of the verses appears to me to be of Radha toward Krsna. I'm having difficulty seeing how these verses are an apology. I guess I have understood them more as Caitanya voicing Radha's passion at the height of separation.

Otherwise, I had considered the opening to be a brief narrative of who Caitanya is and to give a background so that the verses make sense.

Mayapurcandra Das - October 20, 2008 1:22 am

In the italicized section Guru Maharaja prefaces Mahaprabhus appearance by explainig the internal reason for it. By this, he setup the stage for the drama, where Mahaprabhu among his dearest associates beggs for mercy.

I really love this part:

"In the end golden Krsna, in the captivity of Radha's two best friends, wrote his confession in eight stanzas, begging for mercy. Only after receiving that mercy was able to realize the consequences of what he had done and fully taste Radha's love."

Gaurangi-priya Devi - October 20, 2008 1:24 am

Whenever I read the italicized part I imagine myself sitting in a darkened theater. The curtains slowly open, and there is a single spotlight on the narrator. He begins, "While pursuing the highest love during his earthly lila, rasaraja Krsna was dumbfounded to experience the measure of Radha's love, for it exceeded anything that he had ever experienced........."

By the end of the narration I am completely reeled in, anxious to watch the unfolding of this confession by the clever thief.

Sridama Dasa - October 20, 2008 2:26 am

When I read the italicized section, it says this to me: I've never read anything with such insight into what Krsna, and consequently, Mahaprabhu, thinks and feels. The level of insight gives me chills. It's like through Guru Maharaja's words we're able to see directly inside the hearts of rasaraja Krsna and Mahaprabhu, and at the same time -- in the here and now -- we have a clear, privileged vision of what lies inside Guru Maharaja's heart as well. I've even found myself asking, "how does he (GM) know all this?" The only answer I can come up with is that Guru Maharaja must know Mahaprabhu really well. My conclusion thus is that I should listen intently to what Guru Maharaja says because I want to know Mahaprabhu well too.

Gandiva Dasi - October 20, 2008 2:40 am

It is a beautiful poetic section, I really like what Gaurangi and others said, it sets a tone, mood and stage for the unfolding drama. It also seamlessly brings us from Krsna lila into Gaura lila,

"Krsna keeping with his nature attemted to steal the emotions of Radha. A clever theif knows where to hide. Where did Shyama go? That beautiful, dark-complected theif hid himself in the age of darkness, Kali-Yuga, disguising himself as a sadhu. However that which he stole was more brilliant than millions of suns. Thus when his devotees -the dearest of Radha-lookeded for him he was not hard to find."

In the introduction you mentioned the work was primarily for those familiar with Gaudiya Vaisnaivism, but also also seeking to inform all spiritually inclined persons of the fathomless depths of Sri Krsna Caitanya's contribution. I think this italicized section makes this very lofty topic accessible and really rouses the curiosity of the reader.

Bijaya Kumara Das - October 20, 2008 4:45 am

So I think we should move ahead. When I gave a copy of our text to Jayadvaita Swami he began reading the commentary on the first verse and then he stopped to ask "What is this?" with regard to the italicized section it begins with. Any thoughts?

I think he was shocked by what he read. This great realization coming from you Guru Maharaja. It is the essence of Gaura lila in 3 short paragraphs, magnific co. He then realized how significant you took to heart and could express what all of us should come to realize if we are on the pathway of Gaura through the parampara. I believe he actually accepted you and your teaching and all doubt about you were rendered void.

Atmananda Dasa - October 20, 2008 12:30 pm

"However, that which was stolen was more brilliant than millions of suns. Thus when his devotees - the dearest of Radha - looked for him, he was not hard to find"

"Realizing the likelihood of his capture at the hands of his devotees, Krsna gave away the stolen goods in an effort to deflect attention, advising each person who received the goods to pass them on to another."

CC Madhya 7.128

yare dekha, tare kaha 'krishna'-upadesa

amara ajnaya guru hana tara' ei desa

"Instruct everyone to follow the orders of Lord Sri Krishna as they are given in the Bhagavad-gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam. In this way become a spiritual master and try to liberate everyone in this land."

"This, however, only made matters worse, for seeing the distribution of prema, his devotees became suspicious. They knew that a love as brilliant as Radha's could only be experienced in relation to Krsna himself and that he must therefore be in their midst"

CC Antya1.132

anarpita-carim cirat karunayavatirnah kalau

samarpayitum unnatojjvala-rasam sva-bhakti-sriyam

harih purata-sundara-dyuti-kadamba-sandipitah

sada hridaya-kandare sphuratu vah saci-nandanah

"'May the Supreme Lord who is known as the son of Srimati Sacidevi be transcendentally situated in the innermost core of your heart. Resplendent with the radiance of molten gold, He has descended in the Age of Kali by His causeless mercy to bestow what no incarnation has ever offered before: the most elevated mellow of devotional service, the mellow of conjugal love.'"

CC antya 1.177

nija-pranayitam sudham udayam apnuvan yah kshitau

kiraty alam uri-krita-dvija-kuladhiraja-sthitih

sa luncita-tamas-tatir mama saci-sutakhyah sasi

vasi-krita-jagan-manah kim api sarma vinyasyatu

"'The moonlike Supreme Personality of Godhead, who is known as the son of mother Saci, has now appeared on earth to spread devotional love of Himself. He is the emperor of the brahmana community. He can drive away all the darkness of ignorance and control the mind of everyone in the world. May that rising moon bestow upon us all good fortune.'"

namo maha vadanyaya krsna prema pradaya te

krsnaya krsna caitanya namne gaura tvise namah

"In the end, this golden Krsna, in the captivity of Radha's two best friends, wrote this confession in eight stanzas, begging for mercy."

Radha's two best friends referst to Sri Ramananda Raya and Sri Svarup Damodara Goswami. The siksastkam is a confession by Mahaprabhu about his true identity and his theft.

Babhru Das - October 20, 2008 1:33 pm

I find great strength in seeing how you all explore that section. I don't think that Jayadvaita Maharaja was shocked. After all, there's a reason he spent his time at the festival talking with Swami. He was, however, clearly curious about the relationship between that italicized section and the discussion of the verses. Swami's reply was simple and direct, and Maharaja smiled and nodded on hearing it. Swami bhavanamrita. I like that, Madan. It seems we're already having fun.

Madan Gopal Das - October 20, 2008 1:40 pm

Swami's reply was simple and direct, and Maharaja smiled and nodded on hearing it.

So, what was Guru Maharaj's reply to Jayadvaita Swami?

Babhru Das - October 20, 2008 1:55 pm

Let's keep exploring the members' thoughts on that section. I think Swami wants us to play that out. We'll see later how perceptive some of our comments are.

Madan Gopal Das - October 20, 2008 1:59 pm

I apologize, I'm a little confused by the apology aspect of the opening paragraphs. The viewpoint of the verses appears to me to be of Radha toward Krsna. I'm having difficulty seeing how these verses are an apology.

Just a few comments Margaret, forgive me if the comments following your post cleared your confusion... Siksastakam is an apology by Mahaprabhu in this sense: Krsna is a thief as we know. He has a propensity for stealing. As a young boy he stole butter and increased the love of his devotees like Yasoda Ma by his misbehavior. As he grows, he finds an even more valuable prize. He becomes aware that Radha's love surpasses even his expertise in love because he himself is drawn towards and conquered by her love. He is supposed to be the king of love, Rasaraj! So, scheming to regain his prominence, he steals Radha's love by descending as Mahaprabhu and hiding in a dark place (Kali yuga). A dark lord (krsna) in a dark place. Mahaprabhu is Krsna, tasting Radha's love, so he is not Radha, though some of the verses mirror Radha's longing for Krsna. Poetically, GM explains that Radha's love transforms the dark lord in the dark age into a shining golden form and he is then discovered by his devotees. In the effort to give away the stolen goods (Radha's love) so as not to be caught golden handed , Krsna becomes even more noticeable and the devotees such as Rama Raya and Svarupa Damodara arrest him, keeping him close to them. Sometimes they literally locked him up, such as in Gambhira! In this prison he issues his confession, Siksastakam and reveals himself completely to be Krsna, expressing the love of Radha. He is a thief, his fingerprints are all over it!!!

Grant Upson - October 20, 2008 4:02 pm

Srila BR Sridhara Maharaja prefaces his Siksastakam commentary by citing verse 54 of the Prema Dhana Stotram (a work with which I am unfamiliar). Nevertheless I find the excerpt has much in common in terms of feeling (possibly too, vocabulary) with the italicized text:

"Diving deep into the reality of His own beauty and sweetness, Krsna stole the mood of Radharani and, garbing Himself in Her brilliant luster, appeared as Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. For the last twelve years of His manifest pastimes, He was deeply absorbed in the mood of union and separation and shared His heart's inner feelings with His most confidential devotees. In the agony of separation from Krsna, volcanic eruptions of ecstasy flowed from His heart, and His teachings, known as Siksastakam, appeared from His lips like streams of golden lava."

Bhrigu - October 20, 2008 5:06 pm

I felt that the italicized text was meant to be a kind of outer frame to the story of the Siksastakam, with the story of Mahaprabhu speaking to Rama Ray and Svarupa Damodara as the inner frame story. Something like the multiple story frames in the Bhagavatam. Swami also returns to this frame in the commentary to the eight verse, though I think that was not in italics.

Where did you find that text, Grantji? It really seems like you found the origin of this part of the text.

Grant Upson - October 20, 2008 5:28 pm

Where did you find that text, Grantji? It really seems like you found the origin of this part of the text.

The Siksastakam commentary constitutes part two of the "Golden Volcano of Divine Love." It appears in the e-book version, and very probably in the print edition too (which unfortunately I don't have with me at work.)

Premanandini - October 20, 2008 8:30 pm

.......... "While pursuing the highest love during his earthly lila, rasaraja Krsna was dumbfounded to experience the measure of Radha's love, for it exceeded anything that he had ever experienced........."

this reminds me to what i just heard in the last class I was listening to last night (as here in vienna is not so much advanced association - i am listening every evening to a class of Sripad narayan M. -as they are free to download from the internet and there are very many.....)

"Krsnas bhava is limited - he can experience only up to mahabhava - but srimati Radhikas bhava is unlimited - she experiences up to Madanyakya (i am not sure for the spelling - got it just from listening...) maha - bhava.

Krsnas faith is bahu nistha -whereas Srimati Radhikas Faith is eka - nistha - only concentrated on Krsna......."

Premanandini - October 20, 2008 8:36 pm

"While pursuing the highest love during his earthly lila, rasaraja Krsna was dumbfounded to experience the measure of Radha's love, for it exceeded anything that he had ever experienced........."

krsna tries so many things to understand the debth of Srimati Radharanis love - so he played one of his tricks:

he disquised as a demigodess and came to Srimati Radharanis home - intensivly crying and crying and crying.

he caught srimati radharanis attention who immediatly went to the disquised demigodess promissing her to give her everything that she wants if she stops crying and asking her for the reason of her grief - krsna as the disguised demigodess explained:"

I was looking down when you had rasa - lila - and i saw how this debauche krsna left you and treated you bad - he is such a bad person - i will die by seeing how he has put you into pain..... and you still love him....."

Srimati Radharani told:" dear beautiful demigodess - i trust you and to relief your pain i will explain you something about love......."

so krsna previously - before appearing as mahaprabhu - he already tried so much - to understand the unlimited debth of srimati radharanis love................ (but he never could...)

Braja-sundari Dasi - October 20, 2008 8:40 pm

For me this opening section is something like biographic note about the Author yet presenting not mere historical events but his inner feeling and motivation to compose these verses.

I love this section. I feel almost like doing something forbidden when I read it. The most hidden secret of Krishna`s life is revealed by his devotee...

Premanandini - October 20, 2008 8:57 pm

Srila BR Sridhara Maharaja prefaces his Siksastakam commentary by citing verse 54 of the Prema Dhana Stotram (a work with which I am unfamiliar). Nevertheless I find the excerpt has much in common in terms of feeling (possibly too, vocabulary) with the italicized text:

 

"Diving deep into the reality of His own beauty and sweetness, Krsna stole the mood of Radharani and, garbing Himself in Her brilliant luster, appeared as Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu. For the last twelve years of His manifest pastimes, He was deeply absorbed in the mood of union and separation and shared His heart's inner feelings with His most confidential devotees. In the agony of separation from Krsna, volcanic eruptions of ecstasy flowed from His heart, and His teachings, known as Siksastakam, appeared from His lips like streams of golden lava."

i just recently heard, why Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhus "body" transformed in his ecstasy:

as -as krsna he as only used to experience up to maha bhava - so his "body" was not really able to contain the unlimited - madanyakya maha bhava of srimati radharani -and it had to transform in order to be able to keep it..............

Premanandini - October 20, 2008 9:01 pm

Krsna tried to many things to find the limits of srimati radharanis love - but he never could.....

the example is given: like a man in a boot - he likes to find out how deep the water is - so he takes a stick and sticks it into the water -no ground - he sticks it deeper into the water --- no ground --- so deeper --

and he fell head first into the water - so krsna he fell head first into the unlimted deepness of srimati radharanis love without never finding a limit to it....................

Premanandini - October 20, 2008 9:03 pm

ok - last one: i am getting completly captured by this topic:

the sanskrit expression for this is: Sri Radhaya pranaya mahima - which is also the first (out of 3) internal reason for Sri Chaitanya mahaprabhus appareance: He wanted to taste the greatness (mahima) of srimati radhikas love..............

Swami - October 21, 2008 12:45 am

Natrually I have read Premadhama-deva stotram of Pujyapada B.R. Sridhara Deva. We used to chant ten verses from it very day, as they do at Sri Caitanya Saraswat Math. But I have not read it for quite some time, and for some reason I did not think to refer to it at all when writing my Siksastakam commentary. The verse you have cited, Grant, does seem to be the seed of what I have brought blossom in the italicized section under discussion. I am very happy to find this connection through your seva. Gaurapremanande!

Otherwise it appears that a good number of you have understood the scriptural basis behind this narrative. My sense is that had it been written by Visvanatha Cakravarti, Sri Jiva Goswami or other well known commentators it would have been taken as being more concrete— an "actual lila," if you will. By brining this section up I wanted to point out that lila is not always as concrete as devotees sometimes think (and thereby static) but rather more fluid or dynamic, flowing as it does from the hearts of devotees who seek to express the essence of the feeling that lila/bhava constitutes—bhava taking shape in the devotee's heart. When a devotee hears the lila or the philosophy underlying it, he or she in turn responds to it often with a retelling of the narrative making the same or more philosophical points and nuancing the narrative in accordance with how the lila strikes his/her heart. This often brings the lila that much closer to us—brings it home to our heart. Thus the lila flows onward, and thus the importance of the heart of the devotee.

I do not know what Jayadvaita Swami was thinking when he asked, but I thought that perhaps he was seeking a reference to a previous acarya or what lila grantha it was from. Needless to say I could provide no such reference. It's just something from my heart, as is the section that Bhrigu referred us to in the commentary on the 8th verse that picks up form these introductory, italicized paragraphs. But as all of you have pointed out, it is grounded in sastra or the hearts of other devotees.

Sridama Dasa - October 21, 2008 4:51 am

Otherwise it appears that a good number of you have understood the scriptural basis behind this narrative. My sense is that had it been written by Visvanatha Cakravarti, Sri Jiva Goswami or other well known commentators it would have been taken as being more concrete— an "actual lila," if you will. By brining this section up I wanted to point out that lila is not always as concrete as devotees sometimes think (and thereby static) but rather more fluid or dynamic, flowing as it does from the hearts of devotees who seek to express the essence of the feeling that lila/bhava constitutes—bhava taking shape in the devotee's heart. When a devotee hears the lila or the philosophy underlying it, he or she in turn responds to it often with a retelling of the narrative making the same or more philosophical points and nuancing the narrative in accordance with how the lila strikes his/her heart. This often brings the lila that much closer to us—brings it home to our heart. Thus the lila flows onward, and thus the importance of the heart of the devotee.

 

I do not know what Jayadvaita Swami was thinking when he asked, but I thought that perhaps he was seeking a reference to a previous acarya or what lila grantha it was from. Needless to say I could provide no such reference. It's just something from my heart, as is the section that Bhrigu referred us to in the commentary on the 8th verse that picks up form these introductory, italicized paragraphs. But as all of you have pointed out, it is grounded in sastra or the hearts of other devotees.

This explanation brings "Krsna is in the heart of the devotee" alive to me more than anything else I've ever read or heard.

My mind is kind of blown, in a good way!

Swami - October 22, 2008 12:31 am

This explanation brings "Krsna is in the heart of the devotee" alive to me more than anything else I've ever read or heard.

My mind is kind of blown, in a good way!

Very good Sridama! This is the idea.

Now we should discuss the paragraphs that precede the section discussing param vijayate sri krsna sankirtanam. I am thinking that we could reproduce sections herein as we discuss them. I will try to locate a digital file.

Babhru Das - October 22, 2008 4:51 pm

Here's that first section:

Gaura Krsna, otherwise known as Sri Krsna Caitanya, is the answer to the existential crisis of rasaraja Krsna. To maintain his sense of self as the king of love, Krsna had to taste Radha’s love. Therefore, he disguised himself as a devotee and pursued the experience of her love. As Gaura, Krsna was able to taste the limits of this love. Having fulfilled his primary purpose, he was able to give proper attention to his secondary purpose. Having tasted, he taught and taught well. The essence of his tasting and his teaching is found in his eight stanzas known as Siksastakam.

The verses of Siksastakam are found in Sri Rupa Gosvami’s collection of verses known as Padyavali. However, they do not appear there in sequence but are scattered throughout the book. It was Rupa Gosvami’s follower, Sri Krsnadasa Kaviraja Gosvami, who first arranged Mahaprabhu’s verses into one piece, as an eight-verse poem in which each sequential stanza represents a progression of spiritual insight.

In Caitanya-caritamrta, Krsnadasa Kaviraja envisions Sri Krsna Caitanya to be in the midst of Rama Raya and Damodara Svarupa as he swoons forth his Siksastakam. Siksastakam is spoken after Kaviraja Krsnadasa has completed the entire narration of Gaura Krsna’s acarya-lila. Every nuance of Gaura Krsna’s lila serves as a lesson on love, and just as the curtain is about to close on this drama of divine dispensation, Sri Krsna Caitanya reflects back on its significance in the poetry of Siksastakam.

The venerable Krsnadasa Kaviraja writes that once Gaura Raya remained awake the entire night absorbed in a particular bhava, reciting various verses and relishing their significance. Prabhu Gaura joyfully said, “Listen Svarupa, Rama Raya, the sacrifice of sankirtana is the means to worship Krsna in the age of Kali. Only by this practice do those who are very intelligent attain the lotus feet of Krsna.” Gaura Raya then cited what is arguably the most important abhidheya-tattva sloka of Srimad-Bhagavatam as supportive evidence for his ecstatic insight:

It is in this Bhagavata sloka that Sanatana Gosvami found Krsna hiding in Kali-yuga, and after citing it, Gaura Krsna recited the first verse of his Siksastakam in praise of Sri Krsna sankirtana.

Citta Hari Dasa - October 22, 2008 5:11 pm

In the first paragraph this line always strikes me:

Having tasted, he taught and taught well.

Clearly from this the basis of dissemination is experience--taste. As Guru Maharaja often says, "Preaching is an overflow." It's the tasting that drives one to share one's experience with others, and it naturally follows that the deeper one's taste is the more powerful the resultant outreach will be. Since that is the case, when we read about Mahaprabhu's ability to influence the hearts of the jivas he met we can get some idea of the intensity of his inner experience, as well as some insight into the nature of Radha's love. Compassion beyond measure.

Bhrigu - October 22, 2008 7:30 pm

I love the sentence "swoons forth his Sikshastakam". While Bhaktivinoda and Swami have shown that there is a huge amount of tattva in these verses, Krishnadas presents them as the overflow of Mahaprabhu's ecstacy. What tattva there is in the bhava of the Lord and his devotees!

Grant Upson - October 22, 2008 8:40 pm

Here's that first section:

Gaura Raya then cited what is arguably the most important abhidheya-tattva sloka of Srimad-Bhagavatam as supportive evidence for his ecstatic insight:

 

[in Kali-yuga] those of fine theistic intelligence

worship him with conviction along with his associates

through the sacrifice of sankirtana.

With his upraised and ornamented arms as his weapons,

he constantly utters the syllables krs-na.

He is Krsna (black) yet golden in his glory.

It is in this Bhagavata sloka that Sanatana Gosvami found Krsna hiding in Kali-yuga, and after citing it, Gaura Krsna recited the first verse of his Siksastakam in praise of Sri Krsna sankirtana.

Last night I was reading pp. 14-19 (or so) of Maharaja's Tattva-Sandarbha bhavanuvada. Those pages treat Sanatana Gosvami's interpretation of this verse and describe its prominence in Sri Jiva's Sandarbha as the "vastu-nirvesha" verse ("defining the object" of the treatise). What struck me are the two layers of hidden-ness. Mahaprabhu hides himself as a sadhu in Kali-yuga, and he is also hidden in the poetry of the verse. Depending upon how one interprets the sandhi or conjunctions between words, the last line can be read as either tviSA-akRSNam (luster is not black) or tviSA-kRSNam (luster is black). It's a fine grammatical point -- with huge ramifications.

Babhru Das - October 22, 2008 9:50 pm

I love the sentence "swoons forth his Sikshastakam". While Bhaktivinoda and Swami have shown that there is a huge amount of tattva in these verses, Krishnadas presents them as the overflow of Mahaprabhu's ecstasy. What tattva there is in the bhava of the Lord and his devotees!

When I edited the ms., I had some reservations about the choice of that word. While I thought most devotees would appreciate the figure of speech, I worried (I suppose) that the image may not work for some readers. And I certainly had no alternative to suggest. Every time I read this, I'm delighted that this stayed. It's perfect, and I like it better each time. I also like the last sentence in Bhrigu's comment.

Premanandini - October 22, 2008 10:27 pm

Here's that first section:

 

Gaura Raya then cited what is arguably the most important abhidheya-tattva sloka of Srimad-Bhagavatam as supportive evidence for his ecstatic insight:

 

[in Kali-yuga] those of fine theistic intelligence

worship him with conviction along with his associates

through the sacrifice of sankirtana.

With his upraised and ornamented arms as his weapons,

he constantly utters the syllables krs-na.

He is Krsna (black) yet golden in his glory.

It is in this Bhagavata sloka that Sanatana Gosvami found Krsna hiding in Kali-yuga, and after citing it, Gaura Krsna recited the first verse of his Siksastakam in praise of Sri Krsna sankirtana.

anyone knows the sanskrit to this vers???

Radhanama Dasa - October 22, 2008 10:54 pm

anyone knows the sanskrit to this vers???

It is SB 11.5.32:

krishna-varnam tvishakrishnam

sangopangastra-parshadam

yajnaih sankirtana-prayair

yajanti hi su-medhasah

Gaura-Vijaya Das - October 22, 2008 11:29 pm

Here's that first section:

 

Gaura Krsna, otherwise known as Sri Krsna Caitanya, is the answer to the existential crisis of rasaraja Krsna. To maintain his sense of self as the king of love, Krsna had to taste Radha’s love. Therefore, he disguised himself as a devotee and pursued the experience of her love. As Gaura, Krsna was able to taste the limits of this love. Having fulfilled his primary purpose, he was able to give proper attention to his secondary purpose. Having tasted, he taught and taught well. The essence of his tasting and his teaching is found in his eight stanzas known as Siksastakam.

But hasn't his primary purpose already been fulfilled in the spiritual realm itself where navadvip is existing alongside vrindavan. Why does the existential crisis have to be a primary purpose for Krsna to descend in this material realm when he already has a spiritual realm where he acts as a devotee?

Swami - October 23, 2008 12:51 am

But hasn't his primary purpose already been fulfilled in the spiritual realm itself where navadvip is existing alongside vrindavan. Why does the existential crisis have to be a primary purpose for Krsna to descend in this material realm when he already has a spiritual realm where he acts as a devotee?

What you are asking, if I understand it correctly, is that since the unmnanifest Gaura lila is eternal, Krsna's desire to taste Radha's love from her perspective is eternally accomplished. Thus why is their any need to descend to Earth in order to fulfill this ambition? Is not then the primary reason for the descent of Garua lila the distribution of this love?

The point is that Navadwipa and Gaura Krsna are the answer to the crisis. It should not be looked at in terms of time because it is an eternal reality. Nonetheless we have to talk about it in terms of time. But which comes first, Garua-lila or Krsna lila, is not answerable. Sri Svarupa says that Krsna eternlly became two (Radha Krsna) and that these two eternally became one as Sri Caitanya.

Now Krsna plays out his lila on Earth, where it is said to reach new heights. It is in the context of this Earthly lila and the ambitions that drive it that an Earthly Gaura lila is manifest in order to make up for the shortcomings of the previous Earthly Krsna-lila.

Krsna descended to Bhauma Vrindavana to to taste love in a way that is not fully facilitated in the unmanifest lila. However, when this ambition met with the measure of love manifest in Radha a problem arose. To solve the problem that presented itself in Earthly Vrindavana, he came again as Gaura, taking the position of Radha. The problem arose in the Earthly Krsna-lila and was solved in the Earthly Gaura-lila, which is also sweeter than the unmanifest Gaura-lila. Krsna did not descend to Earth to taste Radha's love. It was on Earth that the extraordinary measure of her love could express itself so clearly, facilitated herein as it was. Here the love is heightened, and seeing that heightened love Krsna wanted to taste it. So he regrouped and reappeared as Gaura. It is here that this love could actually be pursued. Here its pursuit is played out, not in the unmanifest Gaura-lila, or certainly not to the same extent. Krsna came here to more fully taste his lila and as Gaura he came here to fully taste his Garua-lila.

Furthermore the lila is always driven primarily by internal reasons by its very nature. How can an external reason rule it. No. It is governed by internal causes and there are external results by which others benefit. Krsna says that the came to Earth to taste love (not that he is not already doing so . . .) and on top of that to make it available it to others. This is the order and naturally it holds true for Garua-lila as well. Otherwise one could just as well mistakenly think that the primary purpose for Krsna's descent was to distribute raga-bhakti rather than to taste it more fully himself. Naturally lovers are always thinking of ways to relish their love for one another more fully.

It is explaned thus by Sri Krsnadas:

prema rasa niryasa karite asvadana

raga marga bhakti loke karite pracarana

"Krsna came to taste the essence of prema rasa and to propagate raga marg bhakti in the world."

Notice the order

Gaura-Vijaya Das - October 23, 2008 1:17 am

What you are asking, if I understand it correctly, is that since the unmnanifest Gaura lila is eternal, Krsna's desire to taste Radha's love from her perspective is eternally accomplished. Thus why is their any need to descend to Earth in order to fulfill this ambition? Is not then the primary reason for the descent of Garua lila the distribution of this love?

 

The point is that Navadwipa and Gaura Krsna are the answer to the crisis. It should not be looked at in terms of time because it is an eternal reality. Nonetheless we have to talk about it in terms of time. But which comes first, Garua-lila or Krsna lila, is not answerable. Sri Svarupa says that Krsna eternlly became two (Radha Krsna) and that these two eternally became one as Sri Caitanya.

 

Now Krsna plays out his lila on Earth, where it is said to reach new heights. It is in the context of this Earthly lila and the ambitions that drive it that an Earthly Gaura lila is manifest in order to make up for the shortcomings of the previous Earthly Krsna-lila.

 

Krsna descended to Bhauma Vrindavana to to taste love in a way that is not fully facilitated in the unmanifest lila. However, when this ambition met with the measure of love manifest in Radha a problem arose. To solve the problem that presented itself in Earthly Vrindavana, he came again as Gaura, taking the position of Radha. The problem arose in the Earthly Krsna-lila and was solved in the Earthly Gaura-lila, which is also sweeter than the unmanifest Gaura-lila. Krsna did not descend to Earth to taste Radha's love. It was on Earth that the extraordinary measure of her love could express itself so clearly, facilitated herein as it was. Here the love is heightened, and seeing that heightened love Krsna wanted to taste it. So he regrouped and reappeared as Gaura. It is here that this love could actually be pursued. Here its pursuit is played out, not in the unmanifest Gaura-lila, or certainly not to the same extent. Krsna came here to more fully taste his lila and as Gaura he came here to fully taste his Garua-lila.

 

Furthermore the lila is always driven primarily by internal reasons by its very nature. How can an external reason rule it. No. It is governed by internal causes and there are external results by which others benefit. Krsna says that the came to Earth to taste love (not that he is not already doing so . . .) and on top of that to make it available it to others. This is the order and naturally it holds true for Garua-lila as well. Otherwise one could just as well mistakenly think that the primary purpose for Krsna's descent was to distribute raga-bhakti rather than to taste it more fully himself. Naturally lovers are always thinking of ways to relish their love for one another more fully.

 

It is explaned thus by Sri Krsnadas:

 

prema rasa niryasa karite asvadana

raga marga bhakti loke karite pracarana

 

"Krsna came to taste the essence of prema rasa and to propagate raga marg bhakti in the world."

 

Notice the order

That is very satisfying GM.

Swami - October 23, 2008 1:22 am

That is very satisfying GM.

Good. So let's make sure everyone understands this, as it is rather complex and su-medhasa (fine theistic intelligence) takes time to acquire. Any questions on comments on this answer?

Syamasundara - October 23, 2008 3:23 am

Off and on, but more so in the past, I must admit I would take certain explanations as conveniently anthropocentric, like when some statements are made, such as that Krsna's bhauma-lila has the added value of a movie filmed "on location", or that the human condition is suitable for love.

How can the material world be better or more conducive a setting? How could it be that in goloka Vrndavana things happen pretty much the same way every "day", and the trees are taller and everything is "too" perfect, therefore a descent in this realm is required?

However, while reading GM's response to Gaura-vijaya, I realized that (and I don't know why it took me so long), first of all wherever Krsna is it's not the material world, and for sure none of the players in the drama are in material consciousness. If anything, the very imperfection of the material world makes the perfection of the transcendental drama stand out that much more. Things like demons, separation both in space and time (two among the major expressions of this illusory world), etc, are good catalysts for that divine love to express itself in a way that is ironically not possible on the goloka plane.

When we took our big Gaura Nitai upstairs to repaint them, I remember how incredibly more beautiful they were when they left the altar, and came out naked among us; so radiant, a beauty that somehow in the spiritual perfection of the altar was not shining through as evidently.

Rama-priya - October 23, 2008 7:32 am

Now Krsna plays out his lila on Earth, where it is said to reach new heights. It is in the context of this Earthly lila and the ambitions that drive it that an Earthly Gaura lila is manifest in order to make up for the shortcomings of the previous Earthly Krsna-lila.

Does in the same way there is some shortcoming in unmanifest Krsna lila, that eternally is accomplished in Gaura lila?

As I understand for me in Gaura lila there is also more possiblity to express love to fallen conditioned souls. It seems to me that in unmanifest lila don't exist such a need. And here on Earth, Gaura, out of tasting Radha's love simultaneously shows us the way how to approach Krsna lila in proper, more friendly way. As Prabhodananda Saraswati Thakura writes:

yatha yatha gaura padaravinde

vindeta bhaktim krta punya rasih

tatha tathotsarpati hrdy akasmat

radha padambhoja sudhambhurasih

"As much as we devote ourselves to the lotus feet of Sri Gauranga, we will automatically achieve the nectarine service of Srimati Radharani in Vrndavan. An investment in Navadwipa Dhama will automatically take one to Vrndavana. How one has been carried there will be unknown to him. But those who have good fortune invest everything in the service of Gauranga. If they do that, they will find that everything has automatically been offered to the divine feet of Srimati Radharani. She will accept them in Her confidential service and give them some engagement, saying, "Oh, you have a good recommendation from Navadwipa; I immediately appoint you to this service." Srimati Radharani is introduced in the form of Gauranga with the added element of magnanimity. No selfish sensualism can enter our consideration of the pastimes of Sri Gauranga, for there He

appears as a sannyasi and a devotee."

Also in Gaura-lila fallen souls receive special mercy in the form of Nityananda Prabhu. Even if they don't want Krsna conciousness he beg them to take it, he preach "gauranga consciousness". And in Krsna lila there isn't such merciful possibility to approach. Here, in Gaura lila, no matter on what level one is, he can approach and can be leveled on the highest platform.

Altough the main cause of Gaura lila is to taste Radha's prema and as by product to deliver fallen souls, but for me this secondary aspect has more value.

Swami - October 23, 2008 3:29 pm

Does in the same way there is some shortcoming in unmanifest Krsna lila, that eternally is accomplished in Gaura lila?

 

As I understand for me in Gaura lila there is also more possiblity to express love to fallen conditioned souls. It seems to me that in unmanifest lila don't exist such a need. And here on Earth, Gaura, out of tasting Radha's love simultaneously shows us the way how to approach Krsna lila in proper, more friendly way. As Prabhodananda Saraswati Thakura writes:

 

yatha yatha gaura padaravinde

vindeta bhaktim krta punya rasih

tatha tathotsarpati hrdy akasmat

radha padambhoja sudhambhurasih

 

"As much as we devote ourselves to the lotus feet of Sri Gauranga, we will automatically achieve the nectarine service of Srimati Radharani in Vrndavan. An investment in Navadwipa Dhama will automatically take one to Vrndavana. How one has been carried there will be unknown to him. But those who have good fortune invest everything in the service of Gauranga. If they do that, they will find that everything has automatically been offered to the divine feet of Srimati Radharani. She will accept them in Her confidential service and give them some engagement, saying, "Oh, you have a good recommendation from Navadwipa; I immediately appoint you to this service." Srimati Radharani is introduced in the form of Gauranga with the added element of magnanimity. No selfish sensualism can enter our consideration of the pastimes of Sri Gauranga, for there He

appears as a sannyasi and a devotee."

 

Also in Gaura-lila fallen souls receive special mercy in the form of Nityananda Prabhu. Even if they don't want Krsna conciousness he beg them to take it, he preach "gauranga consciousness". And in Krsna lila there isn't such merciful possibility to approach. Here, in Gaura lila, no matter on what level one is, he can approach and can be leveled on the highest platform.

 

Altough the main cause of Gaura lila is to taste Radha's prema and as by product to deliver fallen souls, but for me this secondary aspect has more value.

The primary difference between the unmanifest Krsna-lila and Gaura-lila is that in Gaura-lila in the unmanifest, eternal Navadwipa Krsna adopts the position of tasting his own rasa seva—he tastes what is it like to serve himself as Radha does.

Yes, the manifest lila includes divine dispensation. It is imbued with greater generosity. Naturally this will be attractive to us, but as we advance we will become more preoccupied with the internal motivation that drives the lila.

Note also that it is not entirely clear which lila is the source of the other the manifest or the unmanifest. Some lay stress on the idea that the unmanifest lila is an expansion of the manifest lila! Thus the superexcellence of Gokula (as the manifest lila is sometimes referred to) over Goloka (as the unmanifest lila is more readily referred to). Sri Jiva Goswami refers to Gokula as "vaibhavavisesa" in an effort to stress its ontological preeminence over Goloka. Similarly Sri Rupa writes ya tu golokanama syat tat tu golkulavaibhavam, indicating that Goloka is a manifestation of Gokula.

Citta Hari Dasa - October 23, 2008 4:44 pm

The primary difference between the unmanifest Krsna-lila and Gaura-lila is that in Gaura-lila in the unmanifest, eternal Navadwipa Krsna adopts the position of tasting his own rasa seva—he tastes what is it like to serve himself as Radha does.

 

Yes, the manifest lila includes divine dispensation. It is imbued with greater generosity. Naturally this will be attractive to us, but as we advance we will become more preoccupied with the internal motivation that drives the lila.

 

Note also that it is not entirely clear which lila is the source of the other the manifest or the unmanifest. Some lay stress on the idea that the unmanifest lila is an expansion of the manifest lila! Thus the superexcellence of Gokula (as the manifest lila is sometimes referred to) over Goloka (as the unmanifest lila is more readily referred to). Sri Jiva Goswami refers to Gokula as "vaibhavavisesa" in an effort to stress its ontological preeminence over Goloka. Similarly Sri Rupa writes ya tu golokanama syat tat tu golkulavaibhavam, indicating that Goloka is a manifestation of Gokula.

Having heard that the perfected sadhaka takes birth in Gokula and in the company of the nitya-siddhas one's prema develops, which leads one to be qualified for entering into the aprakata-lila, one might tend to think that Gokula is a gateway to Goloka (perhaps in a similar way Gaura-lila is thought of as a gateway to Krsna-lila). But if the opportunities for tasting rasa are so much greater in Gokula than in Goloka (balya-lila, increased sweetness due to the human setting, etc.) then I start to wonder what the role of Goloka is. I.e., if Gokula is so much better, and Goloka is a manifestation of Gokula, then why bother? Does it exist to provide a contrast?

Braja-sundari Dasi - October 23, 2008 4:59 pm

Having heard that the perfected sadhaka takes birth in Gokula and in the company of the nitya-siddhas one's prema develops, which leads one to be qualified for entering into the aprakata-lila, one might tend to think that Gokula is a gateway to Goloka (perhaps in a similar way Gaura-lila is thought of as a gateway to Krsna-lila). But if the opportunities for tasting rasa are so much greater in Gokula than in Goloka (balya-lila, increased sweetness due to the human setting, etc.) then I start to wonder what the role of Goloka is. I.e., if Gokula is so much better, and Goloka is a manifestation of Gokula, then why bother? Does it exist to provide a contrast?

Oh, I just wanted to ask about the same... Why go to Goloka if Gokula seems to be "better"?

Sridama Dasa - October 23, 2008 5:11 pm

Now Krsna plays out his lila on Earth, where it is said to reach new heights. It is in the context of this Earthly lila and the ambitions that drive it that an Earthly Gaura lila is manifest in order to make up for the shortcomings of the previous Earthly Krsna-lila.

 

Krsna descended to Bhauma Vrindavana to to taste love in a way that is not fully facilitated in the unmanifest lila. However, when this ambition met with the measure of love manifest in Radha a problem arose. To solve the problem that presented itself in Earthly Vrindavana, he came again as Gaura, taking the position of Radha. The problem arose in the Earthly Krsna-lila and was solved in the Earthly Gaura-lila, which is also sweeter than the unmanifest Gaura-lila. Krsna did not descend to Earth to taste Radha's love. It was on Earth that the extraordinary measure of her love could express itself so clearly, facilitated herein as it was. Here the love is heightened, and seeing that heightened love Krsna wanted to taste it. So he regrouped and reappeared as Gaura. It is here that this love could actually be pursued. Here its pursuit is played out, not in the unmanifest Gaura-lila, or certainly not to the same extent. Krsna came here to more fully taste his lila and as Gaura he came here to fully taste his Garua-lila.

It seems like the earthly lila initially is ‘catching up’ to the unmanifest lila in that it’s playing out the scenario that’s playing out (or has been playing out) eternally in the unmanifest lila. Then it ultimately surpasses the unmanifest lila because, as this explanation notes, love is tasted and experienced more fully here, hence solving Krsna’s problem – is that accurate?

There’s a Q+A CD somewhere that discusses the manifest and unmanifest lilas and I’m just not recalling exactly how Krsna is able to taste love more fully on this plane – although I recall the CD making it pretty clear.

When we took our big Gaura Nitai upstairs to repaint them, I remember how incredibly more beautiful they were when they left the altar, and came out naked among us; so radiant, a beauty that somehow in the spiritual perfection of the altar was not shining through as evidently.

Along those lines this makes a lot of sense.

Swami - October 23, 2008 5:16 pm

Having heard that the perfected sadhaka takes birth in Gokula and in the company of the nitya-siddhas one's prema develops, which leads one to be qualified for entering into the aprakata-lila, one might tend to think that Gokula is a gateway to Goloka (perhaps in a similar way Gaura-lila is thought of as a gateway to Krsna-lila). But if the opportunities for tasting rasa are so much greater in Gokula than in Goloka (balya-lila, increased sweetness due to the human setting, etc.) then I start to wonder what the role of Goloka is. I.e., if Gokula is so much better, and Goloka is a manifestation of Gokula, then why bother? Does it exist to provide a contrast?

One answer is that it exists because the lila is not always manifest, and in becoming unmanifest something is arguably lost—nothing essential mind you. Take a deep breath and remember that the entire material world becomes unmanifest from time to time.

Regarding Braja's question, "Why go to Goloka at all if Gokula is more perfect?" It is said that the perfected desire to experience Gokula and the imperfect desire to experience Goloka. The imperfect desire to go to Goloka because upon going there when the lila becomes unmanifest they will know that their lives are perfected and they have attained vastu-siddhi, never to be left behind.

Syamasundara - October 23, 2008 6:07 pm

Some lay stress on the idea that the unmanifest lila is an expansion of the manifest lila! Thus the superexcellence of Gokula (as the manifest lila is sometimes referred to) over Goloka (as the unmanifest lila is more readily referred to). Sri Jiva Goswami refers to Gokula as "vaibhavavisesa" in an effort to stress its ontological preeminence over Goloka. Similarly Sri Rupa writes ya tu golokanama syat tat tu golkulavaibhavam, indicating that Goloka is a manifestation of Gokula.

That's pretty astounding.

Citta Hari Dasa - October 23, 2008 6:10 pm

One answer is that it exists because the lila is not always manifest, and in becoming unmanifest something is arguably lost—nothing essential mind you. Take a deep breath and remember that the entire material world becomes unmanifest from time to time.

 

Regarding Braja's question, "Why go to Goloka at all if Gokula is more perfect?" It is said that the perfected desire to experience Gokula and the imperfect desire to experience Goloka. The imperfect desire to go to Goloka because upon going there when the lila becomes unmanifest they will know that their lives are perfected and they have attained vastu-siddhi, never to be left behind.

"One answer is that it exists because the lila is not always manifest" seems to me to indicate that Goloka would be the source of Gokula, because Goloka is in full swing regardless of whether the material world is manifest or not. I suspect that in the end it's a seed-or-tree issue that can't be answered by the rational mind.

About the second paragraph I thought that it's pretty fascinating how it works: the imperfect go to Gokula, attain vastu-siddhi in Goloka, then desire to go back to Gokula where they started. Divine circularity, like the lila itself.

Swami - October 23, 2008 6:57 pm

"One answer is that it exists because the lila is not always manifest" seems to me to indicate that Goloka would be the source of Gokula, because Goloka is in full swing regardless of whether the material world is manifest or not. I suspect that in the end it's a seed-or-tree issue that can't be answered by the rational mind.

Yes and I mentioned no one makes it that clear which is a manifestation of the other from what I have seen. I have just cited a couple of statements that seem to indicate Gokula as the source of Goloka. Personally I like this idea and went within in my GTU commentary. It surprised some readers. But the logic is that of the more complete not arising from the less complete. I would argue that Gokula is the source, but due to the nature of the material world a less complete expression of it continues when the world becomes unmanifest. It does seem a bit counterintuitive though.

Swami - October 23, 2008 7:09 pm

It seems like the earthly lila initially is ‘catching up’ to the unmanifest lila in that it’s playing out the scenario that’s playing out (or has been playing out) eternally in the unmanifest lila. Then it ultimately surpasses the unmanifest lila because, as this explanation notes, love is tasted and experienced more fully here, hence solving Krsna’s problem – is that accurate?

 

There’s a Q+A CD somewhere that discusses the manifest and unmanifest lilas and I’m just not recalling exactly how Krsna is able to taste love more fully on this plane – although I recall the CD making it pretty clear.

Along those lines this makes a lot of sense.

This is good except for the part in red. His problem is solved in Gaura-lila, but his pursuit of human like love is facilitated best in human society. I have given the example of filming the drama "on location," as opposed to using props. This enhances the production. The manifest Earthly lila is called his nara-lila (human lila), whereas his unmanifest lila is called his deva-lila (godly lila). The idea is that in Goloka there is more aisvarya or majesty and in Gokula more madhurya or sweetness.

"Pray tell can sweetness be more sweet?

And then more sweet a sweetness even more complete?

When just one drop the entire cosmos fills

and drowns within its lovely honey swills;

in sweetness all directions merge and meet."

Citta Hari Dasa - October 23, 2008 8:39 pm

Yes and I mentioned no one makes it that clear which is a manifestation of the other from what I have seen. I have just cited a couple of statements that seem to indicate Gokula as the source of Goloka. Personally I like this idea and went within in my GTU commentary. It surprised some readers. But the logic is that of the more complete not arising from the less complete. I would argue that Gokula is the source, but due to the nature of the material world a less complete expression of it continues when the world becomes unmanifest. It does seem a bit counterintuitive though.

I like your argument; it makes perfect sense to me. Thank you.

Braja-sundari Dasi - October 24, 2008 9:46 am

I would argue that Gokula is the source, but due to the nature of the material world a less complete expression of it continues when the world becomes unmanifest. It does seem a bit counterintuitive though.

I was just thinking how manifesting and unmanifesting material worlds is just a one breath of Mahavishu. From God`s perspective it`s like nothing. He is the master of time and can play with it as he likes. What is a very long time period for us is not such for Krishna. He lives in eternity... How to understand the word "unmanifest" properly in this regard? How can anything become manifest or unmanifest in eternity?

Guru-nistha Das - October 24, 2008 3:40 pm

I was thinking about the idea that it's impossible to say whether Gaura lila or Krsna lila came first. The fact that Gaura lila is an answer to a problem would indicate that Gaura lila is subordinate to Krsna lila in one sense: The cause always precedes the effect. Cause: Krsna couldn't taste love as intense as Radha's. Effect: Gaura appeared as a solution to the problem.

But then Gaura lila, as a reaction to a problem within perfection, becomes more full because it has the rasa seva aspect of Bhagavan to it, and so the point which Guru Maharaja expressed earlier in connection to manifest/unmanifest lilas (=that more complete can't come from the less complete) would talk in favor of Krsna lila being subordinate to Gaura lila... It's a brain twister!

Swami - October 24, 2008 4:25 pm

I was thinking about the idea that it's impossible to say whether Gaura lila or Krsna lila came first. The fact that Gaura lila is an answer to a problem would indicate that Gaura lila is subordinate to Krsna lila in one sense: The cause always precedes the effect. Cause: Krsna couldn't taste love as intense as Radha's. Effect: Gaura appeared as a solution to the problem.

 

But then Gaura lila, as a reaction to a problem within perfection, becomes more full because it has the rasa seva aspect of Bhagavan to it, and so the point which Guru Maharaja expressed earlier in connection to manifest/unmanifest lilas (=that more complete can't come from the less complete) would talk in favor of Krsna lila being subordinate to Gaura lila... It's a brain twister!

One may also think that the acme of Krsna lila is its source, from which all less complete expressions of rasa flow. In the Bhagavatam this zenith is reached in rasa-lila, and it is there that we find Sri Caitanya--at the source of all expressions of Krsna-lila. Also Sri Krsnadasa depicts Gaura-lila as the spring from which rivers of Krsna-lila flow in all directions. And in the words of Pujyapada SM, "First the giver, then the gift." Jaya Gaura! Jaya Radhe!

Premanandini - October 24, 2008 9:13 pm

Krsna descended to Bhauma Vrindavana to to taste love in a way that is not fully facilitated in the unmanifest lila.

 

 

 

 

........ was solved in the Earthly Gaura-lila, which is also sweeter than the unmanifest Gaura-lila.

 

Krsna did not descend to Earth to taste Radha's love. It was on Earth that the extraordinary measure of her love could express itself so clearly, facilitated herein as it was. Here the love is heightened, and seeing that heightened love Krsna wanted to taste it. So he regrouped and reappeared as Gaura. It is here that this love could actually be pursued. Here its pursuit is played out, not in the unmanifest Gaura-lila, or certainly not to the same extent. Krsna came here to more fully taste his lila and as Gaura he came here to fully taste his Garua-lila.

??????????

this sounds that here on earth would be something that is not in the spiritual world??????

Swami - October 24, 2008 11:06 pm

??????????

this sounds that here on earth would be something that is not in the spiritual world??????

Correct! But not really on Earth, rather in the nara-lila.

The lesson is also that you want to go somewhere else but God wants to come here. Maybe you are missing something. Change yur angle of vision. Visvam purnam sukhayate. The cost of living in longing for the future and lamenting the past is the present. High price to pay.

Swami - October 25, 2008 1:59 pm

Last night I was reading pp. 14-19 (or so) of Maharaja's Tattva-Sandarbha bhavanuvada. Those pages treat Sanatana Gosvami's interpretation of this verse and describe its prominence in Sri Jiva's Sandarbha as the "vastu-nirvesha" verse ("defining the object" of the treatise). What struck me are the two layers of hidden-ness. Mahaprabhu hides himself as a sadhu in Kali-yuga, and he is also hidden in the poetry of the verse. Depending upon how one interprets the sandhi or conjunctions between words, the last line can be read as either tviSA-akRSNam (luster is not black) or tviSA-kRSNam (luster is black). It's a fine grammatical point -- with huge ramifications.

Yes, good point. Mahaprabhu is hidden in the verse, but if you study it in the context that it appears (an explanation of the yuga avataras following the description of the Dvaraka yuga avatara) with Sanatana Prabhu's explanation, it is hard to take it any other way than as a reference to Mahaprabhu. Both the preceding verse an the two successive verses go together with it. It is the best scriptural evidence for the divinity of Mahaprabhu. Everyone should know this verse and understand it in context. Very important.

Note that in the Sanatana-siksa of Cc (chapters dealing with Mahaprabhu's instructions to Sanatana Goswami) that when the discussion of the yuga avataras comes around there is a charming exchange between Mahaprabhu and Sanatana Goswami. Therein Sri Sanatana presses Mahaprabhu concerning his divinity and Mahaprabhu tries to hide himself. So the Kali-yuga avatara tires to hide himself. It is no wonder then that people have a hard time finding him in sastra, but it is wonderful how his devotees can see him there and point him out to others!

Premanandini - October 25, 2008 6:22 pm

Correct! But not really on Earth, rather in the nara-lila.

 

The lesson is also that you want to go somewhere else but God wants to come here. Maybe you are missing something. Change yur angle of vision. Visvam purnam sukhayate. The cost of living in longing for the future and lamenting the past is the present. High price to pay.

what is it please that krsna/gaura finds here in nara lila that he wont find there?????

what can/should WE find here - in order to make it worth living????

somehow also in spirtual life it is taught (or at least i understood it that way): that we do this chanting, seva etc, that in the moment of death we are prepared (which means: future oriented) and ready to go away....................

is there anything (& what) worth being here on earth -rather than trying to get away from here as quick as possible???????

Syamasundara - October 25, 2008 6:35 pm

There is no here or there. The proof is that the journey is toward the realm of consciousness and within the realm of consciousness at the same time.

Nitaisundara Das - October 25, 2008 10:28 pm

what is it please that krsna/gaura finds here in nara lila that he wont find there?????

 

what can/should WE find here - in order to make it worth living????

 

somehow also in spirtual life it is taught (or at least i understood it that way): that we do this chanting, seva etc, that in the moment of death we are prepared (which means: future oriented) and ready to go away....................

 

is there anything (& what) worth being here on earth -rather than trying to get away from here as quick as possible???????

GM has explained that in the prakata lila there is more loving sentiment to be had. Examples: in the nitya lila Krsna is never born, thus Mother Yasoda does not get to experience Krsna until he is in his teens (?his teens right?). In the nitya lila there are no demons. There are rumors of demons and these scare the Vrajavasis, but they never find Krsna crawling on Putana. Similarly there are only rumors of Krsna going to Dwarka. Krsna, being the taster of love, likes to taste these sentiments as well.

The other day GM was explaining that in Gaura lila, Mahaprabhu's tasting of Radha-prema is more internal. Mahaprabhu tastes that Prema in Srivasa Angam but it does not come out like it does in the prakata lila.

GM often also says "there is nowhere to go". Like Syama said. It is not material world=maya=get the hell out / spiritual world=Krsna=go there now. Its "planets of Consciousness" as SSM said. Manifest and unmanifest lila are both...lila, that is, divine.

I think there are two ways of looking at earthly life being (or not being) worth living. Earthly existence, in terms of Consciousness, is not worth it. The only way to get away as "quick as possible" is to be serious in KC, which is done here, in the world. But even if we are to fully shift our Consciousness, we still have our prarabdha karma, and we should be thankful for that, otherwise those superlative devotees would go quicker. On the other side, what makes life on earth meaningful is seva, the same thing that makes life in the lila meaningful, only there everything is seva, thus everything is meaningful. The Guru is an extension of Gaura lila, as is his or her ashrama, and the whole thing is srsti lila. So we are in some sort of lila, only the degree of divinity depends on our sincerity.

So yes, we should want to get the hell out of here and cultivate serious conviction to do so, but not defined in those terms. We should want to serve, and when our eligibility reaches such a degree that our service necessitates getting out of here, we will be taken. Anartha nivritti comes via artha pravritti. getting rid of things in the context of getting real things. Jnanis want to get away and stop suffering, we want only Krsna and the devotee's happiness, if that means being on earth for preaching or what not, great! (of course I mean for the person who was hypothetically at such a state).

I think also I should mention that there is some place for being averse to the world and what not while we are practicing Vaidhi-bhakti. We need to quarantine ourselves with good sanga. We are also taught to avoid intimate exchange with worldly minded people, and this kind of discriminating sometimes goes against western sensibilities, but we must not pretend like a maha-bhagavata and see divinity everywhere.

Nitaisundara Das - October 25, 2008 10:30 pm

The other thing GM mentioned is that this sweetness of the manifest lila is the purport of Gopal Campu, wherein the inhabitants of Goloka are hearing about the activities of Gokul and it is "blowing their mind".

Madan Gopal Das - October 26, 2008 7:51 pm

The only way to get away as "quick as possible" is to be serious in KC, which is done here, in the world. But even if we are to fully shift our Consciousness, we still have our prarabdha karma, and we should be thankful for that, otherwise those superlative devotees would go quicker. On the other side, what makes life on earth meaningful is seva, the same thing that makes life in the lila meaningful, only there everything is seva, thus everything is meaningful. The Guru is an extension of Gaura lila, as is his or her ashrama, and the whole thing is srsti lila. So we are in some sort of lila, only the degree of divinity depends on our sincerity.

Good thoughts Nitaisundara. Very wise.

Citta Hari Dasa - October 27, 2008 5:59 pm

I'll ditto Madan here: well said Nitai--sadhu, sadhu! I especially liked this:

I think there are two ways of looking at earthly life being (or not being) worth living. Earthly existence, in terms of Consciousness, is not worth it. The only way to get away as "quick as possible" is to be serious in KC, which is done here, in the world.

It is not material world=maya=get the hell out / spiritual world=Krsna=go there now. Its "planets of Consciousness" as SSM said. Manifest and unmanifest lila are both...lila, that is, divine.

This black and white interpretation of Gaudiya siddhanta is as we have seen all too often the source of much misery for many devotees, who, taking the concept too literally want to give up everything and just live in an asrama or live super cheaply so that they are not distracted by maya, without realizing that the world is not the problem, the mind is.

Guru Maharaja likes to quote Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura: visvam purnam sukhayate--the world is full of joy--but of course we have to be pretty seriously absorbed in spiritual life to be able to see it that way. Thus the necessity of good sanga--that's our only hope. And in that sanga--especially of someone like Guru Maharaja--we get glimpses of what it means to see the world that way. When we were at the Japanese gardens at one point we were looking at the exquisite craftsmanship of the Japanese woodworking and GM commented that one cannot do that by being preoccupied with the past or worried about the future. We have to come to reside in the present, and by doing so with a foundation of proper sambandha-jnana we will in time come to see the world as an abode of joy also. Guru is everywhere. The grass and the trees are talking to us.

Babhru Das - October 27, 2008 7:28 pm

I'll ditto Madan here: well said Nitai--sadhu, sadhu!

 

Guru Maharaja likes to quote Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura: visvam purnam sukhayate--the world is full of joy--

Add my dittoes as well. But isn't that from Prabodhananda?

Nitaisundara Das - October 27, 2008 8:09 pm

Citta Hari your post reminded when I read KRSNA book for the first time (not that I have read it since) and at one point SP said how actually the devotee does not desire to get out the material world. It totally blew my mind :Thinking: .

Braja-sundari Dasi - October 27, 2008 9:09 pm

Citta Hari your post reminded when I read KRSNA book for the first time (not that I have read it since) and at one point SP said how actually the devotee does not desire to get out the material world. It totally blew my mind :Thinking: .

Do you remember where it was? I cannot find it.

Madan Gopal Das - October 27, 2008 11:57 pm

But isn't that from Prabodhananda?

Yes.

kaivalyaṁ narakāyate tridaśa-pūr ākāśa-puṣpāyate

durdāntendriya-kāla-sarpa-paṭalī protkhāta-daṁṣṭrāyate

viśvaṁ pūrṇa-sukhāyate vidhi-mahendrādiś ca kīṭāyate

yat kāruṇya-kaṭākṣa-vaibhavavatāṁ taṁ gauram eva stumaḥ

(Caitanya-candrāmṛta 5)

For a devotee, the pleasure of merging into the existence of Brahman is considered hellish. Similarly, he considers promotion to heavenly planets just another kind of phantasmagoria. The yogīs meditate for sense control, but for the devotee the senses appear like serpents with broken teeth. The whole material world appears joyful for a devotee, and even great personalities like Lord Brahmā and Lord Indra are considered no better than insects. Such is the position of a devotee who has received but a small glance of the mercy of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Unto this most magnanimous personality I offer my respectful obeisances.

Citta Hari Dasa - October 28, 2008 12:18 am

Thanks for the correction on that.

Yes.

 

kaivalyaṁ narakāyate tridaśa-pūr ākāśa-puṣpāyate

durdāntendriya-kāla-sarpa-paṭalī protkhāta-daṁṣṭrāyate

viśvaṁ pūrṇa-sukhāyate vidhi-mahendrādiś ca kīṭāyate

yat kāruṇya-kaṭākṣa-vaibhavavatāṁ taṁ gauram eva stumaḥ

(Caitanya-candrāmṛta 5)

 

For a devotee, the pleasure of merging into the existence of Brahman is considered hellish. Similarly, he considers promotion to heavenly planets just another kind of phantasmagoria. The yogīs meditate for sense control, but for the devotee the senses appear like serpents with broken teeth. The whole material world appears joyful for a devotee, and even great personalities like Lord Brahmā and Lord Indra are considered no better than insects. Such is the position of a devotee who has received but a small glance of the mercy of Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Unto this most magnanimous personality I offer my respectful obeisances.

Swami - October 29, 2008 2:16 am

The Bhagavata teaches that devotees are not interested in any of the five kinds of liberation, salokya sarsti samipya . . .. Whether they are in heaven, earth, or hell liberated or not they are content to serve Krsna, svarga apavarga narakesu . . . Mahaprabhu says this himself later in Siksastakam 4, mama janmani janmanisvare bhavatad bhaktir ahauituki tvayi. We are not concerned with getting the hell out of here, but serving Krnsa, and in one sense it is for such devotees that Krsna comes "here," paritranaya sadhunam.

Swami - October 30, 2008 12:50 pm

Moving along we come to the last line of the first verse, which is comes first in the translation and is thus discussed first in the commentary.

Param vijayate Sri Krsna sankirtanam.

I wrote this commentary for devotees, those familiar with the teachings of Mahaprabhu. In this section we begin with an emphasis on exclusive faith in nama sankirtana. I might have written it a little differently had my objective been to introduce Mahaprabu's siksa to a broader audience. Not sure though. Any thoughts?

Gaura-Vijaya Das - October 30, 2008 3:52 pm

Can we discuss the detail about Vidya vadhu jivanam also along with the last line.

Swami - October 30, 2008 5:31 pm

Can we discuss the detail about Vidya vadhu jivanam also along with the last line.

Perhaps. What point would you like to make?

Gaura-Vijaya Das - October 30, 2008 7:34 pm

Perhaps. What point would you like to make?

That the highest reach of a jiva is participating in conjugal love affairs of the Supreme: only possible with Krsna. I think "vadhu" kind of indicates conjugal love, I would really like to know what meaning vidya-vadhu combine to give.

Swami - October 30, 2008 8:16 pm

That the highest reach of a jiva is participating in conjugal love affairs of the Supreme: only possible with Krsna. I think "vadhu" kind of indicates conjugal love, I would really like to know what meaning vidya-vadhu combine to give.

Yes, but the plan is to discuss this in order as it is discussed in the commentary. We are starting with param vijayate sri krsna sankirtanam. Then we will go to ceto darpana marjanam, etc. reaching vidya-vadhu in due course.

Braja-sundari Dasi - October 30, 2008 9:13 pm

Param vijayate Sri Krsna sankirtanam.

Reading your commentary Guru Maharaj I was amazed to see how much is there in these few words. Just everything- from the beginning faith to highest prema.

Guru-nistha Das - November 1, 2008 10:57 pm

Why did everybody fall silent all of a sudden?

Here's my two cents to Guru Maharaja's question:

Since the main reason why Sri Krsna Sankirtana is considered the supreme spiritual practice is that it gives prema of the highest kind, if the commentary would have been written to new devotees or non-devotees, an explanation of a spiritual hierarchy or gradation of experience would have been helpful in my opinion. An explanation of the superiority and nature of prema, and an explanation of why you can reach prema only through Krsna Sankirtana and no other sadhana (the whole point about ascending vs. descending methods is convincing) would have probably made it much more accessible for new people.

Also more elaboration on why God's name and his person are non-different could've been reassuring for general seekers.

Premanandini - November 2, 2008 12:45 am

Param vijayate Sri Krsna sankirtanam. [/b

SUPREME Victory to Sri Krsna Sankirtana - why? as Gurunistha d. has mentioned - because it is not "normal" Yuga dharma sankirtan - but it is PREMA NAMA SANKIRTANA.

as Srila Gour Govinda Swami mentioned in `The embankment of separation` Mahaprabhu strung a garland of Prema and Nama and decorated the whole world with it.

...it is easy to write - but to realise??? If i could chant one time the pure name - i could get prema....................

Radhas love for krsna and krsnas love for Radha - are in this name...... - why i cant feel????

Bhrigu - November 2, 2008 11:18 am

If the book had been directed to a more general audience, one thing to consider would have been dropping most of the Sanskrit words and phrases (e.g. Krishna's name instead of Krishna nama). Newcomers are often bewildered by all the strange words, as we have seen also here on TV.

Braja-sundari Dasi - November 2, 2008 5:44 pm

Since the main reason why Sri Krsna Sankirtana is considered the supreme spiritual practice is that it gives prema of the highest kind, if the commentary would have been written to new devotees or non-devotees, an explanation of a spiritual hierarchy or gradation of experience would have been helpful in my opinion. An explanation of the superiority and nature of prema, and an explanation of why you can reach prema only through Krsna Sankirtana and no other sadhana (the whole point about ascending vs. descending methods is convincing) would have probably made it much more accessible for new people.

Also more elaboration on why God's name and his person are non-different could've been reassuring for general seekers.

I think some explanation of Krishna as highest manifestation of God and Radha as his highest potency would also be helpful.

Karnamrita Das - November 2, 2008 6:17 pm

If the book had been directed to a more general audience, one thing to consider would have been dropping most of the Sanskrit words and phrases (e.g. Krishna's name instead of Krishna nama). Newcomers are often bewildered by all the strange words, as we have seen also here on TV.

On Krishna.com which is my blogging loka, I often hear that complaint from new people: that the KC culture which appears in "Indian" garb seems very foreign and can make it difficult for them to access. For some of us it was never a problem, so strong was our necessity----we were desperate to find the truth and didn't think of the culture as foreign at all---we just drank it all up. Yet others can be quite put off. So the question here----though a little off task---is how much to adjust to make it more accessible. In general these prayers are not for new people, and GM said he wrote it for practicing sadhakas. He told my wife when she brought up the esoteric nature of his book, that she should make it more accessible for others. The extreme is Hridayananda who thinks--sometimes--that we should dispense with dhotis and saris, and all things "Indian". I think there may be some place for adjusting the presentation for beginners, though then we can discuss what is favorable. GM feels that the dhotis and dress IS favorable for bhakti, though the dress isn't everything. KC is both simple and super esoteric, and it would seem to me, that part of our discussion in "unpacking" the transcendental mine of Shiksastakam is to understand its highest philosophical heights to fuel our practice and also to be able to explain it in a way that people can understand.

Beware of "explanations" that no one can understand! That reminds me of a lecture I went to before I was a devotee by Allen Ginsberg, that my friend and I could not really understand. We thus "realized" that because of this it "must be spiritual". I had the sense the spiritual was by nature incomprehensible and I tried to show that since I spoke what no one could understand, then I would be considered "spiritual"----actually they just thought I was crazy, and they were correct!

Audarya-lila Dasa - November 3, 2008 4:45 pm

I remember one thing that hit me when I first read GM's edition of siksastakam was the way he presented the idea of 'exclusive' and complete glorification of Sri Krsna - Param vijayate Sri Krsna sankirtanam. I thought - while this is true and beautiful to a faithful sadhaka, it would sound fanatical or 'fundamentalistic' to a newcomer or someone unfamiliar with the tradition.

I do want to add a commentary here and pose a general question in regard to presentation here as well. I attended a devotional gathering up in Ojai a couple of weeks ago and heard a very disturbing comment from one of Srila Prabhupada's disciples. There was one gentleman at the gathering who is an eastern orthodox christian and he posed a sort of ramble on question about ecumenism and understanding truth even when traditions have clear contradictions - how to resolve such contradictions? The lecturer gave a fairly nice response to the effect that life is drama and conflict is part of the beauty of the drama. One of the guests chimed in that each vision of divinity or representation has unique features and that by exclusive worship of such a divinity (which she suggested would ultimately be necessary for success on the spiritual path) the worshiper would ultimately end up with that representation of divintiy in the spiritual world.

I thought her analysis was good and that what she was proposing/suggesting was certainly in line with gaudiya siddhanta. However, this disciple of Srila Prabhupada who was also in the audience got quite upset at her comments/suggestions and said very forcefully, 'No, that's not what our spiritual master taught us! He said that all names of God are perfect and that by chanting any one of them one could become perfect and pure!" He was trying to push on the point of 'no distinction'. Really that isn't a true contradicition between these two ideas, but he seemed to feel there was.

There was a general feeling of uneasiness over the exchange and several people chimed in but what I walked away from the exchange with was a big question about outreach. In the name of outreach to the masses the presentation becomes somewhat genericized and ecumenically scrubbed so that it 'sits well with an unfamiliar audience'. The problem in the devotional community at large is - there is no discernment over what is a 'preaching tactic' meant to facilitate entrance into the tradition and help to develop some beginning faith enough to take up the basic practices of bhakti sadhana - and what is the actual siddhanta. This problem is excerbated by the fact that Srila Prabhupada is deified beyond recognition such that anything he ever said is now 'gospel truth and absolute unquestionable gaudiya siddhanta' in the minds of many. This is a very unhealthy situation and unfortunately leads to some rather large misconceptions being presented and pushed as siddhanta. The fall from Vaikuntha is one clear example of such a phenomena. While it seemed to be a good preaching tactic to speak of the jiva's entanglement as a 'fall from the spiritual world', the problem now is that so many 'learned and experienced' devotees can't understand it in that light and have gone to great lengths trying to prove that the actual siddhanta is that jivas do fall from Vaikuntha.

So the general question I am posing is: how much should the presentation be altered to help bring new comers in? Also, given the recent history of outreach and the repercussions of the broad outreach now being so much misunderstanding - how can the outreach be done in such a way that it is palatable and facilitates entrance without creating an impediment to going beyond the entry door to mine the depths of the ocean within?

Gaura-Vijaya Das - November 3, 2008 5:08 pm

I remember one thing that hit me when I first read GM's edition of siksastakam was the way he presented the idea of 'exclusive' and complete glorification of Sri Krsna - Param vijayate Sri Krsna sankirtanam. I thought - while this is true and beautiful to a faithful sadhaka, it would sound fanatical or 'fundamentalistic' to a newcomer or someone unfamiliar with the tradition.

 

I do want to add a commentary here and pose a general question in regard to presentation here as well. I attended a devotional gathering up in Ojai a couple of weeks ago and heard a very disturbing comment from one of Srila Prabhupada's disciples. There was one gentleman at the gathering who is an eastern orthodox christian and he posed a sort of ramble on question about ecumenism and understanding truth even when traditions have clear contradictions - how to resolve such contradictions? The lecturer gave a fairly nice response to the effect that life is drama and conflict is part of the beauty of the drama. One of the guests chimed in that each vision of divinity or representation has unique features and that by exclusive worship of such a divinity (which she suggested would ultimately be necessary for success on the spiritual path) the worshiper would ultimately end up with that representation of divintiy in the spiritual world.

 

I thought her analysis was good and that what she was proposing/suggesting was certainly in line with gaudiya siddhanta. However, this disciple of Srila Prabhupada who was also in the audience got quite upset at her comments/suggestions and said very forcefully, 'No, that's not what our spiritual master taught us! He said that all names of God are perfect and that by chanting any one of them one could become perfect and pure!" He was trying to push on the point of 'no distinction'. Really that isn't a true contradicition between these two ideas, but he seemed to feel there was.

 

There was a general feeling of uneasiness over the exchange and several people chimed in but what I walked away from the exchange with was a big question about outreach. In the name of outreach to the masses the presentation becomes somewhat genericized and ecumenically scrubbed so that it 'sits well with an unfamiliar audience'. The problem in the devotional community at large is - there is no discernment over what is a 'preaching tactic' meant to facilitate entrance into the tradition and help to develop some beginning faith enough to take up the basic practices of bhakti sadhana - and what is the actual siddhanta. This problem is excerbated by the fact that Srila Prabhupada is deified beyond recognition such that anything he ever said is now 'gospel truth and absolute unquestionable gaudiya siddhanta' in the minds of many. This is a very unhealthy situation and unfortunately leads to some rather large misconceptions being presented and pushed as siddhanta. The fall from Vaikuntha is one clear example of such a phenomena. While it seemed to be a good preaching tactic to speak of the jiva's entanglement as a 'fall from the spiritual world', the problem now is that so many 'learned and experienced' devotees can't understand it in that light and have gone to great lengths trying to prove that the actual siddhanta is that jivas do fall from Vaikuntha.

 

So the general question I am posing is: how much should the presentation be altered to help bring new comers in? Also, given the recent history of outreach and the repercussions of the broad outreach now being so much misunderstanding - how can the outreach be done in such a way that it is palatable and facilitates entrance without creating an impediment to going beyond the entry door to mine the depths of the ocean within?

I think that the outreach can be done in a limited way so that there is enough "boiling of the milk" happening. i think working with smaller groups is useful in today's time and by spending more qualitiy time with individuals rather than just mass lectures and book distributions may help a newcomer to relate to a person practising GV who exhibits good qualities sadhana etc and absorb that association more effectively. I always think the working in smaller groups is the best; especially after the phase of mass preaching has already happened.

Citta Hari Dasa - November 3, 2008 6:05 pm

I think Guru Maharaja does an excellent job of presenting Gaudiya Vaisnavism in universal terms that most everyone will agree with--giving is getting; a life based on taking is ugly, etc. and that seems to work well. The more odd-looking (to the unfamiliar) cultural items are left aside for the moment so that faith in the basic principles can be established. Once that's in place then more specific elements are introduced gradually. Clearly to do so--with any tradition-- is an art that takes a fair amount of insight and experience to do skillfully. One thing that I think really turns people off is any scent of a conversionist mentality, and in presenting the tradition in terms of "this is the way it is" rather than "this is how our tradition sees it." Considering all this I tend to think that the siddhanta really doesn't need much alteration, it just needs to be presented skillfully.

Grant Upson - November 3, 2008 6:41 pm

If the book had been directed to a more general audience, one thing to consider would have been dropping most of the Sanskrit words and phrases (e.g. Krishna's name instead of Krishna nama). Newcomers are often bewildered by all the strange words, as we have seen also here on TV.

To me, a reader without some prior exposure to GV's specific conceptual orientation -- or, at a minimum, some familiarity with a Vedanta-informed worldview -- will find the commentary to be extremely challenging.

My wife, who is not completely steeped in GV (but who is also far from oblivious) is an interesting test case. She has picked up the book a number of times and commented to me that things started "making sense" only after she made use of the glossary. So, what appears impenetrable at first on account of terminology is actually approachable by someone who exerts a little effort and reflects back upon what she or he already knows of the tradition.

Also, the commentary doesn't exist in an information vacuum. Consider how much supplementary material about Mahaprabhu and GV is available instantly online. An intelligent person, if inclined, can begin putting together the philosophical and theological pieces, even if beginning with an advanced text. This might not have been possible thirty or forty years ago when just a few books on GV were available to the western world.

Nevertheless, I do think a commentary geared towards a more lay/neophyte audience would much more gradually (and sparingly) introduce Sanskrit vocabulary, while also setting the ontological stage on which the verses are situated (kind of like Joy of Self).

Swami - November 3, 2008 11:56 pm

I think there is a place for expressing one's faith in one's faith, and even one's sense that one's faith is the best without appearing sectarian, especially when one can marshall a good amount of objective evidence to support one's convictions. For that matter, one should feel that one's path is the best (a least for oneself) and find like minded association wherein this conviction can be enthusiastically voiced. In our case this conviction will also appear non sectarian to thoughtful persons in that it does not insist that others can not reach transcendence by other means. I did not mention this in my commentary, but would have in one aimed at a wider audience. But the word param helps us here. While I believe I have rendered it "exclusive" ( I don't have a copy with me at the moment), it obviously could also be rendered "supreme." So sri krsna sankirtana is the supreme victory, but this implies that there may be lesser victories as well and this is a central point of our tradition. We see Krsna as supreme on the basis of an analysis of transcendence—by looking at it through the lens of affection/intimacy with the Absolute (rasa vicara). In other word we acknowledge a gradation of transcendent or enlightened life, one that is measured by the degree to which one's attainment affords on intimacy with the Absolute, even while simultaneously acknowledging that anyone's particular relationship with the Absolute is subjectively the highest for them. Here the question we ask is whether love if supreme or not.

The other side of the "supreme" of sri krsna sankirtana refers to the sadhana (practice, as opposed to its sadhya (goal) just discussed. Naturally there will be different sadhanas for different sadhyas, even while there may also be different sadhanas for the same sadhya. We acknowledge both. For example, we acknowledge yoga sadhana for Paramatma realization and jnana for realization of Brahman, but we also acknowledge that one can attain Bhagavan realization by hearing, chanting, mediation, prayer, etc. However, here again we ask the same question: "Is love supreme?" For our method is the same as our madness--sadhana-bhakti begets bhava-bhakti whih in turn begets prema-bhakti.

Gurunistha: your comments seem most in line with what I am saying above.

Premanandhini: you really need to get a copy of the book to participate in a meaningful way.

Audarya-lila and others: There is broader discussion I intend to initiate concerning "Perennialism" and how we fit within this genre. We are perennialists, not modernists, postmodernists, or premodernists. I hope to initiate this discussion along with a reading assignment in the near future and I think thinks will be the best place to address the concerns you have raised.

Babhru: Could you post the section we are presently discussing?

Babhru Das - November 4, 2008 1:24 am

Sorry--A little slow on the draw again. If I missed any diacritics, please let me know, and I'll get them.

Param vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam!

In the beginning of his eightfold teaching, Gaura Krsna trumpets the virtues of Sri Krsna sankirtana in an effort to awaken sraddha (faith) in its efficacy and thus give rise to sraddha’s outward expression of saranagati (surrender). Such faith creates eligibility for treading the bhakti-marga. Divine faith is the beginning of Krsna bhakti. Filled with such faith, Gaura Krsna cries out, param vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam.

The words param vijayate call for exclusive adherence to Sri Krsna sankirtana, forgoing any other path. With a similar emphasis on sraddha and saranagati, Bhagavad-gita, Sri Krsna’s song to Arjuna, reaches its conclusion. The famous words sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja bring Sri Krsna’s song to a close. Following this conclusion, Krsna’s life story, Srimad-Bhagavatam, begins with the same emphasis. The words dharmah projjhita-kaitavo ‘tra open the book about his life. Both the closing statement of Bhagavad-gita and the opening statement of Srimad-Bhagavatam advocate faith in exclusive devotion to Sri Krsna and the surrender that corresponds with it.

As Krsna’s concluding words of the Bhagavad-gita are strong yet prefaced by more than six hundred verses justifying them, so too are the opening lines of Srimad-Bhagavatam strong yet well supported when they dismiss all other expressions of dharma and even the ideal of salvation. The insistence on exclusive devotion in the Bhagavata’s introduction is followed by almost eighteen thousand verses in support of its premise. Similarly, Siksastakam’s initial emphasis on sraddha and saranagati has been prefaced by Gaura Krsna’s entire life of divine love, which speaks louder than precept. Gaura’s position is also well supported by the virtues of nama-sankirtana that he lists in the balance of this initial Siksastakam sloka, the seven successive verses of Siksastakam, and the ocean of scripturally based literary support that the Vrndavana Gosvamis and their successors churned from the Siksastakam.

Thus Siksastakam promotes from the outset faith in the efficacy of exclusive Sri Krsna sankirtana. This faith is not blind, dogmatic belief, but rather enlightened faith drawn from revelation. Such faith mandates change in our lives, a change of heart that involves saranagati, the stage on which the drama of krsna-bhakti is performed. The first six steps on the ladder to vraja-bhakti—from initial sraddha to ruci (taste)—is the process of fully erecting the stage of saranagati within one’s heart, thus connecting the ray of faith that first dawns in one’s heart with the sun of faith that never sets in the land beyond doubt and misconception. It is faith in the efficacy of Sri Krsna sankirtana that situates one on the path, and faith-filled sankirtana itself that moves one along.

While Sri Caitanya glorifies sankirtana in an effort to elicit faith in its efficacy, he does not explain the significance of the term sankirtana, which, aside from its ordinary meaning, has a special significance for Sri Caitanya and his followers. Here in Siksastakam Mahaprabhu qualifies his sankirtana, referring to it as “Sri Krsna sankirtana.” It is necessary to mine the significance of all four of these words—Sri, Krsna, sam, and kirtana—to realize the wealth of Sri Caitanya’s intentions.

Kirtana means glorification of another. It derives from the verbal root kirti, which means fame. It is that by which one makes the virtues of others well known, and that by which one becomes virtuous oneself. In general, one becomes glorious by praising others, as opposed to glorifying oneself. One can praise another’s name, qualities, form, or activities, making for different kinds of kirtana.

Here in Siksastakam, Sri Caitanya emphasizes nama-kirtana, but not kirtana of just any name. He calls for exclusive kirtana of the name of God, which is considered to be nondifferent from God himself. If there is any difference between Krsna and his name, it is that in the form of his name he is more approachable. Sri Rupa Gosvamipada has explained this in his Sri-krsna-namastakam:

O Harinama!

You manifest in two svarupas

as “named” and “name.”

The name’s fame exceeds that of the named.

What proof is there of this?

The name’s serious offender

upon becoming a repenter

with words and worship of this name

in a sea of bliss will always bathe.

Thus in the form of Krsna kirtana, Krsna nama is both high, being one with God, and highly accessible at the same time.

Mahaprabhu has further qualified his method of kirtana, advocating not only kirtana of the name of Krsna but sankirtana of Krsna nama. Sam means full, complete, and comprehensive. The word sankirtana implies comprehensive glorification that is both quantitatively and qualitatively so. Glorification is quantitatively complete if it is unanimous—if everyone present participates. Thus sankirtana suggests glorification in unison with other like-minded persons, and thereby the association of saintly persons—sadhu-sanga.

The quality of Gaura Krsna ‘s sankirtana cannot be understood without mentioning Radha. The word sri in Gaura’s first verse speaks of Krsna’s divine consort. It is in pursuit of her love that Krsna becomes Gaura and sings in sankirtana. He sings in her mood, seeing himself through her eyes. No one knows Krsna better than Radha. Her love is called samartha-rati, competent love. It is capable of completely conquering Krsna, and as we shall see from the final sloka of Siksastakam, it is this kind of love that Sri Caitanya tastes and distributes in Sri Krsna sankirtana—the highest quality of love, Sri Radha’s prema in mahabhava.

Although sankirtana is the dharma of Kali-yuga, in the current yuga cycle there is a special concession. Not only does Gaura Krsna distribute dharma in the broadest possible outreach, he distributes the highest quality of prema, inviting everyone into the innermost chamber of his own heart. Thus he has woven a wreath out of both of prema and sankirtana and seeks to garland the world with it.

When the raja of Puri first witnessed the sankirtana of Gaura’s associates, he was filled with wonder (camatkara). He had never witnessed this kind of kirtana, this kind of dancing, this kind of love. Prataparudra Maharaja was no stranger to glorification of Krsna. He presided over a city centered on Krsna’s glorification, a city that was host to millions and millions of pilgrims. When he asked his brother-in-law what kind of kirtana it was, Gopinatha replied, caitanyera srsti ei prema-sankirtana: “This is the creation of Sri Caitanya. It is called prema-sankirtana.” Not all forms of sankirtana offer prema, but the sankirtana of Gaura Krsna is about prema alone. Indeed, it frowns on mere deliverance (mukti).

The principal nama-mantra invoked by Sri Caitanya in his prema-sankirtana is mentioned in the sruti. Kalisantarana Upanisad calls this nama-mantra of sixteen names taraka-brahma nama. Taraka means deliverance, and here it implies that chanting this nama-mantra results in deliverance from samsara, especially in Kali-yuga. In fact, this is the nama-mantra that the yugavatara distributes in dark age of Kali. However, neither Gaura Narayana, the yugavatara for the age of Kali, nor the Upanisads speak of prema.

The special concession of prema-sankirtana is a result of Sri Caitanya’s being Gaura Krsna, rather than Gaura Narayana. He is not the usual Kali-yuga avatara, who appears in the world to deliver people from birth and death by advocating the yuga-dharma. He is not an avatara of Narayana or Krsna but rather Krsna himself. Although he does teach the yuga-dharma, he has another internal agenda of his own. He does not chant merely taraka-brahma nama but paraka-brahma nama. Paraka means “competence.” Here it implies that the Hare Krsna nama-mantra is competent not only to deliver one from samsara but furthermore to give the treasure of prema. Thus Siksastakam’s phrase param vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam heralds the glory of that which is the best form of sadhana/sadhya, or spiritual practice that naturally leads to the highest form of spiritual perfection in prema. What then is the need for any other sadhana, and where can one find a higher sadhya?

After praising the paramount spiritual practice with the words param vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam, Sri Caitanya delineates seven effects of nama-sankirtana. In the vision of Thakura Bhaktivinoda, these seven effects correspond with the seven sequential steps that follow sraddha and sadhu-sanga and end in prema as delineated by Sri Rupa Gosvami in his Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. Sri Rupa writes:

First faith, then holy association,

followed by the acts of bhajana,

resulting in the cessation of obstacles,

then steadiness, taste, attachment,

ecstasy, and divine love.

This is the order of the stages

through which prema arises in sadhakas.

The first two of these steps, sraddha and sadhu-sanga, have already been discussed. After arousing faith in the method of his divine madness and implying that it is best pursued in the company of sadhus, Sri Caitanya has chosen to enumerate seven particular glories of nama-sankirtana, which correspond with the seven steps remaining to attain Krsna prema. Each of these steps is further described in greater detail in the next seven verses of Siksastakam.

Swami - November 4, 2008 9:03 pm

Right now we are discussing the first four paragraphs of the section on param vijayate sri ksna sankirtanam posted by Babhru (thank you). I think they make a perfect sense when understood in context. The idea that sri krsna sankirtana is the highest ideal as well as method of approach to transcendence is well reasoned in the context of to Eastern revelation (Upanisads, Bhagavatam, etc.) The insights of our acaryas arise within this context, a Hindu context. Throughout Cc we references to Rama bhakti, Advaitavada, Dvaitavad, references to Visistadvaitavad, Buddhism, etc. through which by way of comparison the param of sri krsna sankirtana is established.

However, today we are faced with a larger religious context and alternate forms of revelation, in which mystics experience the celestial/mental realm somewhat differently from Hindu mystics, while being considerably vaguer about any specifics concerning ultimate reality. So it is an interesting challenge to establish the param of sri krsna sankirtana as an objective reality while simultaneously acknowledging and thus being inclusive of other mystical traditions. In the commentary I did take up this challenge because, again, I wrote it for Gaudiyas. As I implied in my previous post, this challenge may best be discussed in the upcoming discussion on Perennialism.

So, any more on this section? Is everyone following? If not, now is the time to say so. Ask your questions, and if there are none we will continue. Note that the ensuing discussion of “sam” in the word sankirtana involves some overlapping with the present discussion of “param.”

Babhru Das - November 5, 2008 1:33 am

In the context of the discussion about manner of presentation and appearances of fanaticism or fundamentalism, I found myself thinking about translations of param vijayate sri krsna sankirtanam and readers' responses to those translations. Today, after nearly 40 years of practice and with some considerable faith in Gaudiya vaisnavism, I really like Swami's translation. I find it hard to imagine how I might have received that, or even Srila Prabhupada's "Let there be all victory" in Sri Chaitanaya-charitamrita, in 1969. I found "All glories" easy to accept. Of course, I probably didn't read that until after reading enough Bhagavad-gita As It Is that I had some faith anyway. This particular presentation is probably not a good introductory book, but I think it's excellent for those with some experience. I remember that my older daughter found it more than inspiring. She really appreciated the translations (she had probably assimilated the old TLC and SB translation into her marrow) and found the commentary wonderful.

Swami - November 6, 2008 5:32 pm

So we are discussing sraddha (faith). Mahaprabhu seeks to awaken this faith with the words param vijayate sri krsna sankirtanam. This is the first stage. Sri Krsnadasa writes about it thus,

sädhu-sange krsna-bhaktye sraddhä yadi haya

bhakti-phala ‘prema’ haya, samsära yäya ksaya

“By associating with a devotee, one awakens his faith in devotional service to Krsna. Because of devotional service, one’s dormant love for Krsna awakens, and thus one’s material, conditioned existence comes to an end." (Srila Prabhupada's translation)

Then he cites the Bhagavatam to support his statement:

yadrcchayä mat-kathädau

jäta-sraddhas tu yah pumän

na nirvinno näti-sakto

bhakti-yogo ‘sya siddhi-dah

“‘Somehow or other, if one is attracted to talks about Me and has faith in the instructions I have set forth in the Bhagavad-gitä, and if one is neither falsely detached from material things nor very much attracted to material existence, his dormant love for Me will be awakened by devotional service." (Prabhupada again)

Does anyone have a copy of uddhava-gita (within the Bhagavatam) with the commentaries of BSST and VCT? It would be interesting to see how they comment on this verse.

Also what about Brs? Sri Rupa describes eligibility for bhakti something like this (not falsely detached not too much attached) No? Does he cite this verse?

What else does Sri Krsnadasa say about sraddha (hint: se Cc 22 50-70)? Here he describes its origin as sadhu sanga, but according to Sri Rupa sadhu sanga is the stage following sraddha. Any comments?

I just want to stir up some interest here and get you all to learn to live in the sastra. (It's nice in here!)

Babhru Das - November 6, 2008 8:55 pm

Rupa Goswami does indeed describe eligibility for bhakti in this way. He writes,

The person who has developed faith in serving the Lord by impressions arising from previous association with devotees, who is not too attached to material objects, and who is not too detached, is qualified for vaidhi-bhakti.

Then he cites the yadrcchaya verse. Both Jiva and Visvanatha’s comments seem to underline the element of mercy in this equation.

In Ch. 22 of Madhya-lila, Krishna das seems to include coming from the other direction: bhakti is not possible without the association of devotees, without the dust from their lotus feet. (As the Bhagavatam says, bhaktya sanjataye bhaktya.) He cites the yadrcchaya verse in v. 50, then cites other verses showing that it is only by the association of mahatmas that any attraction to hearing about Krishna is possible. And, while both this section of Ch. 22 and the section of Brs. mentioned discuss degrees of faith, the bar seems set pretty high:

Sraddha is confident, firm faith that by rendering transcendental loving service to Krsna one automatically performs all subsidiary activities. Such faith is favorable to the discharge of devotional service.

The verses cited also include Bg. 18.66. It seems this is all about saranagati.

Swami - November 6, 2008 9:16 pm

'sraddha'-sabde -- visvasa kahe sudrdha niscaya

krsne bhakti kaile sarva-karma krta haya

Sraddha is confident, firm faith that by rendering transcendental loving service to Krsna one automatically performs all subsidiary activities. Such faith is favorable to the discharge of devotional service.

This verse you cited is Krsnadasa's definition of sraddha, upon attaining which one is eligible to tread the path of bhakti. And yes, it is practically Krsnadasa's Bengali rendering of Bg. 18.66.

"sarva karma krta hay"/"all other religious duties (dharma)"

"krsne bhakti kaile"/"surrendering unto me (exclusive krsna bhakti)"

"visvasa kahe sudrdha niscaya/""do not fear"

But I do not think Sri Krsnadas actually cites it. He cites Bg. 18.64,65.

Babhru Das - November 6, 2008 9:42 pm

This verse you cited is Krsnadasa's definition of sraddha, upon attaining which one is eligible to tread the path of bhakti. And yes, it is practically Krsnadasa's Bengali rendering of Bg. 18.66.

 

"sarva karma krta hay"/"all other religious duties (dharma)"

 

"krsne bhakti kaile"/"surrendering unto me (exclusive krsna bhakti)"

 

"visvasa kahe sudrdha niscaya/""do not fear"

 

But I do not think Sri Krsnadas actually cites it. He cites Bg. 18.64,65.

No, he doesn't cite 18.66, but, especially with the yatha taror mula verse in the mix, everything seems to add up to 18.66, or at least to lead there.

These 20 verses are a rich vein of nectar and instruction. Of course, the whole chapter is, including as it does the 64 angas of bhakti. When I was at Madhuvana, I spent a little time each day moving through Chapters 19-23 again.

Swami - November 6, 2008 10:23 pm

No, he doesn't cite 18.66, but, especially with the yatha taror mula verse in the mix, everything seems to add up to 18.66, or at least to lead there.

 

These 20 verses are a rich vein of nectar and instruction. Of course, the whole chapter is, including as it does the 64 angas of bhakti. When I was at Madhuvana, I spent a little time each day moving through Chapters 19-23 again.

Bg. 18.66 is cited a little later on in the chapter in support of the idea that one should give up bad association, sarva dharman parityaja. But it would have worked well if not better in the preceding section on sraddha.

So to help everyone keep up, what I have done here is segued into Cc to explore its definition of sraddha (faith) in the context of discussing param vijayate sri krsna sankirtana inasmuch as this line from Siksastakam represents the stage of faith.

There in Cc we found a definition of sraddha that corresponds with the the concluding words of the Gita, which although cited in my commentary in this regard was not cited by Sri Krsnadasa in Cc. We also found in Cc the idea that sraddha arises out of sadhu sanga (spiritual association) and that it is further characterized in terms of its being the indicator of eligibility to tread the path of bhakti by a disposition that is neither overly prone to renunciation nor material enjoyment—the middle path if you will. We have not discussed this notion yet. Any thoughts? And also we are still waiting for an explanation of the apparent contradiction between Krsnadaa and Sri Rupa, the former stating that sraddha arises out of sadhu sanga and the latter stating that sadhu sanga is the stage following sraddha. Comments?

Grant Upson - November 6, 2008 10:30 pm

I just scoured CC Madhya chapter 6, trying to see if Gopinatha Acharya (or Srila Prabhupada) cited anything from Uddhava-Gita (or the yadrcchaya verse directly) in connection with Sarvabhauma’s conversion. No luck, so I might be following a false lead.

Nevertheless the role of mercy and sadhu-sanga in the Bhattacharya’s abandonment of speculative logic, surpassing of Vedic regulations (sarva dharman parityajya…), etc. and profound conversion is underscored directly by Mahaprabhu. He cites Gopinatha’s status as a devotee and association with the logician as the source of that mercy.

Curiously the word “sraddha” is not used in the chapter, but the symptoms of firm faith (and with it transcendence of Vedic decorum) are exhibited by Sarvabhauma. Take, for example, his acceptance of Jagannatha prasad without regard for ritual washing.

In any case, I suppose my point is that this pastime appears to support the position that sraddha is dependent upon (or at least directly related to and intertwined with) mercy and association. Unfortunately this does little to resolve the apparent contradiction between Sri Rupa and Krsnadas Kaviraja.

Babhru Das - November 6, 2008 10:35 pm

And also we are still waiting for an explanation of the apparent contradiction between Krsnadaa and Sri Rupa, the former stating that sraddha arises out of sadhu sanga and the latter stating that sadhu sanga is the stage following sraddha. Comments?

I have long wondered about this. I'll work on it some tonight, but I'll be delighted for anyone else's perspective.

Nitaisundara Das - November 7, 2008 12:30 am

And also we are still waiting for an explanation of the apparent contradiction between Krsnadaa and Sri Rupa, the former stating that sraddha arises out of sadhu sanga and the latter stating that sadhu sanga is the stage following sraddha. Comments?

I think they referring to two different types of association with saintly people, maybe you could call it unintentional (Krsnadasa) and intentional (Rupa Goswami).

The support for this, where I will pull from, is found in this sanga

Therein GM writes:

If selfless devotees or devotees serving under the auspices of a selfless devotee with a view to become selfless themselves conduct the kirtana, it has a positive spiritual effect in light of the culture of Krsna bhakti, even if listeners appear uninterested in the philosophy that underlies the kirtana. Scriptures call this result ajnata sukrti

Further it says, quoting BVT:

There are two types of sukrti, nitya and naimittika. Nitya sukrti bears eternal fruit, and it results in sadhu-sanga and bhakti.

Sukrti cant just arise from karmic circumstance. Devotees are "agents of divinity" moving about in the karmic realm. In order for that little bit of the nirguna plane to come into our loves it must somehow break in through our material bondage: enter the sadhu. So some measure of sadhu sanga is necessary to ignite ajnata sukrti, the example GM gives is a dog chasing away a snake that was going to bite a sadhu in meditation. From there over lifetimes ajnata sukriti develops into jnata sukrti and faith. And then one seeks a sort of sadhu sanga where they know the associate to be a sadhu, whereas previously it was unknowing sadhu-sanga.

Perhaps if we think of association in terms of seva (which is the heart of real association) then there is another way to distinguish. The dog's sadhu sanga was a lower degree of self sacrifice (really it was not even self sacrifice at all) compared to a seeker or initiated disciple who renders service in hopes for attaining "self-forgetfullness".

Swami - November 7, 2008 2:58 am

I just scoured CC Madhya chapter 6, trying to see if Gopinatha Acharya (or Srila Prabhupada) cited anything from Uddhava-Gita (or the yadrcchaya verse directly) in connection with Sarvabhauma’s conversion. No luck, so I might be following a false lead.

 

Nevertheless the role of mercy and sadhu-sanga in the Bhattacharya’s abandonment of speculative logic, surpassing of Vedic regulations (sarva dharman parityajya…), etc. and profound conversion is underscored directly by Mahaprabhu. He cites Gopinatha’s status as a devotee and association with the logician as the source of that mercy.

 

Curiously the word “sraddha” is not used in the chapter, but the symptoms of firm faith (and with it transcendence of Vedic decorum) are exhibited by Sarvabhauma. Take, for example, his acceptance of Jagannatha prasad without regard for ritual washing.

 

In any case, I suppose my point is that this pastime appears to support the position that sraddha is dependent upon (or at least directly related to and intertwined with) mercy and association. Unfortunately this does little to resolve the apparent contradiction between Sri Rupa and Krsnadas Kaviraja.

The conversion of Sarvabhauma was indeed a result of sadhu sanga in the form of Gopinatha's well wishing, or his desire that the Bhattacarya become a devotees. This is the genesis of his devotional life as you have understood. Faith followed, although as you mentioned it is not explicitly stated. This not the place in Cc where the progression of devotion is delineated.

Incidentally there are two instances that follow Sarvabhauma's conversion, his honoring Mahaprasada without adhering to Vedic dharma's rules and regulations and his desire to change the word mukti in a Bhagavatam verse to bhakti, that can be taken as evidence of the measure of his conversion. In other words they indicate that his bhakti was not covered/influenced by karma or jnana.

Guru-nistha Das - November 7, 2008 3:31 am

We also found in Cc the idea that sraddha arises out of sadhu sanga (spiritual association) and that it is further characterized in terms of its being the indicator of eligibility to tread the path of bhakti by a disposition that is neither overly prone to renunciation nor material enjoyment—the middle path if you will. We have not discussed this notion yet. Any thoughts?

A very obvious thought comes to mind but I'll throw it out there nonetheless: karma and jnana are two aspects of a whole that includes the two, but is not defined by them. In other words, concentrating on either one of them gives only a partial picture of reality and hinders one from approaching the whole that these two are a part of. But, naturally, by approaching the whole its parts will come to the seeker as well, in the right context.

Unfortunately I can't cite any scripture to back this up.

Swami - November 7, 2008 3:55 am

A very obvious thought comes to mind but I'll throw it out there nonetheless: karma and jnana are two aspects of a whole that includes the two, but is not defined by them. In other words, concentrating on either one of them gives only a partial picture of reality and hinders one from approaching the whole that these two are a part of. But, naturally, by approaching the whole its parts will come to the seeker as well, in the right context.

Unfortunately I can't cite any scripture to back this up.

Yes, karma (action/enjoyment) and jnana (knowledge/renunciation) are part of the whole. That is why for example these two paths are no to be vilified, nor the scriptures that teach them. Doing so constitutes nama aparadha. They have their place, but their place is not to take precedence over bhakti, rather to find the fullness of their meaning in relation to bhakti.

Swami - November 7, 2008 3:57 am

Now back to the apparent contradiction between Sri Krsnadasa and Rupa Goswai egarding sadhu sanga.

Later in Cc 2.22.83 Mahaprabhu tells Sanatana Goswami,

krsna-bhakti-janma-mula haya ‘sadhu-sanga’

krsna-prema janme, tenho punah mukhya anga

“The root cause of devotional service to Lord Krsna is association with advanced devotees. Even when one’s dormant love for Krsna awakens, association with devotees is still most essential.” (Prabhupada)

This verse in effect speaks of two stages of sadhu sanga, before and thus giving rise to sraddha and nourishing further after having attained sraddha. Later on in Cc. 2. 23.14-15 Kaviraja Goswami will cite Sri Rupa’s verses delineating the nine stages from sraddha to prema. But before doing so he writes in Cc 2.23.10,

kona bhagye kona jivera “sradddha” yadi haya

tabe sei jiva ‘sadhu-sanga” ye karaya

“If, by good fortune, a living entity develops faith in Krsna, he begins to associate with devotees.” (Prabhupada)

“Good fortune” here cannot refer to anything other than sadhu sanga, however minimal. Earlier Kaviraja Goswami writes that a fraction of a second’s association with a sadhu enables one to eventually attain perfection. So it is clear that this sadhu sanga, even when engaged in unconsciously, is the turning point in the materially conditioned soul’s life. How could it be otherwise? Nothing other than bhakti can give bhakti, and this bhakti resides in the heart of the sadhu. Once getting his or her association, bhakti can develop from unconscious association with bhakti that constitutes a spiritually meritorious act (ajnata sukriti), to associating with sadhus and engaging through such association in bhakti with some awareness that one is doing so (jnata sukriti), to sraddha the formal and visible beginning of the path, preparation for the journey having been attended to.

So although I set up an apparent contradiction for the sake of discussion, I do no think there really is one, and the two Bengali verses cited above can be used as evidence for two types of sadhu sanga—before and after sraddha.

Nitaisundara got it right.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - November 7, 2008 11:09 pm

Now back to the apparent contradiction between Sri Krsnadasa and Rupa Goswai egarding sadhu sanga.

 

Later in Cc 2.22.83 Mahaprabhu tells Sanatana Goswami,

 

krsna-bhakti-janma-mula haya ‘sadhu-sanga’

krsna-prema janme, tenho punah mukhya anga

“The root cause of devotional service to Lord Krsna is association with advanced devotees. Even when one’s dormant love for Krsna awakens, association with devotees is still most essential.” (Prabhupada)

 

This verse in effect speaks of two stages of sadhu sanga, before and thus giving rise to sraddha and nourishing further after having attained sraddha. Later on in Cc. 2. 23.14-15 Kaviraja Goswami will cite Sri Rupa’s verses delineating the nine stages from sraddha to prema. But before doing so he writes in Cc 2.23.10,

 

kona bhagye kona jivera “sradddha” yadi haya

tabe sei jiva ‘sadhu-sanga” ye karaya

“If, by good fortune, a living entity develops faith in Krsna, he begins to associate with devotees.” (Prabhupada)

 

“Good fortune” here cannot refer to anything other than sadhu sanga, however minimal. Earlier Kaviraja Goswami writes that a fraction of a second’s association with a sadhu enables one to eventually attain perfection. So it is clear that this sadhu sanga, even when engaged in unconsciously, is the turning point in the materially conditioned soul’s life. How could it be otherwise? Nothing other than bhakti can give bhakti, and this bhakti resides in the heart of the sadhu. Once getting his or her association, bhakti can develop from unconscious association with bhakti that constitutes a spiritually meritorious act (ajnata sukriti), to associating with sadhus and engaging through such association in bhakti with some awareness that one is doing so (jnata sukriti), to sraddha the formal and visible beginning of the path, preparation for the journey having been attended to.

 

So although I set up an apparent contradiction for the sake of discussion, I do no think there really is one, and the two Bengali verses cited above can be used as evidence for two types of sadhu sanga—before and after sraddha.

 

Nitaisundara got it right.

How important is one's sincerity in inquiry helpful in attracting the sadhu to oneself. Or one's sincerity is entirely related to sadhu sanga, is there no room for free will then? Or like in a lottery ticket selection some souls will chosen to be saved at a given time and some will not irrespective of the voluntary desire of the jiva? Can't this lead to complacency and downplay the importance of sincerity of inquirer or the intensity of sadhana from the pracitioner?

Guru-nistha Das - November 8, 2008 5:41 am

How important is one's sincerity in inquiry helpful in attracting the sadhu to oneself. Or one's sincerity is entirely related to sadhu sanga, is there no room for free will then? Or like in a lottery ticket selection some souls will chosen to be saved at a given time and some will not irrespective of the voluntary desire of the jiva? Can't this lead to complacency and downplay the importance of sincerity of inquirer or the intensity of sadhana from the pracitioner?

In Madhurya Kadambini 1.6 Vishwanath Chakravarti discusses how bhakti chooses to extend herself to jivas through an intermediate (madhyama) devotee. He quotes the Bhagavatam verse (11.2.46) which explains the characteristics of a madhyama bhakta as prema-maitri-krpopeksa. They show love (prema) for the Lord, friendship (maitri) to devotees, mercy (krpa) to the innocent, and indifference (apeksa) towards the envious.

Since a madhyama bhakta, through whom bhakti is mostly distributed, is characterized by discrimination of how to interact with different types of people, the innocent and sincere jivas draw the mercy of Bhakti devi's agent by being sincere and honest. Sadhus are willing to spend time and extend their mercy on someone who they think is fertile soil for the bhakti creeper. So it seems like there is a certain disposition that attracts the madhyama bhakta, whereas an uttama bhakta wouldn't discriminate, I guess.

The question about complacency: in another part in Madhurya Kadambini it is said that "... It [bhakti Devi] depends on no other cause to appear, but manifests within the devotee by her own independent will. One engages in the practices of devotion (sadhan bhajan) only to make the heart suitable for her appearance". In a way bhakti sadhana is just an expression of wanting something a lot that is out of our reach. Like a kid having a fit in a toy store or something. And those expressions attract Bhakti to us in the form of a Madhyama bhakta, so I can't see how Bhakti's causeless and independent nature would foster complacency. What else could we do than pray for it anyway? There's nothing to be had in jnana or karma, so we're left with begging for bhakti to enter our hearts.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - November 9, 2008 2:16 am

In Madhurya Kadambini 1.6 Vishwanath Chakravarti discusses how bhakti chooses to extend herself to jivas through an intermediate (madhyama) devotee. He quotes the Bhagavatam verse (11.2.46) which explains the characteristics of a madhyama bhakta as prema-maitri-krpopeksa. They show love (prema) for the Lord, friendship (maitri) to devotees, mercy (krpa) to the innocent, and indifference (apeksa) towards the envious.

 

Since a madhyama bhakta, through whom bhakti is mostly distributed, is characterized by discrimination of how to interact with different types of people, the innocent and sincere jivas draw the mercy of Bhakti devi's agent by being sincere and honest. Sadhus are willing to spend time and extend their mercy on someone who they think is fertile soil for the bhakti creeper. So it seems like there is a certain disposition that attracts the madhyama bhakta, whereas an uttama bhakta wouldn't discriminate, I guess.

 

The question about complacency: in another part in Madhurya Kadambini it is said that "... It [bhakti Devi] depends on no other cause to appear, but manifests within the devotee by her own independent will. One engages in the practices of devotion (sadhan bhajan) only to make the heart suitable for her appearance". In a way bhakti sadhana is just an expression of wanting something a lot that is out of our reach. Like a kid having a fit in a toy store or something. And those expressions attract Bhakti to us in the form of a Madhyama bhakta, so I can't see how Bhakti's causeless and independent nature would foster complacency. What else could we do than pray for it anyway? There's nothing to be had in jnana or karma, so we're left with begging for bhakti to enter our hearts.

Yes but there maybe complacency setting in my linking lack of sincerity to lack of sukriti.

Nitaisundara Das - November 9, 2008 5:34 am

Yes but there maybe complacency setting in my linking lack of sincerity to lack of sukriti.

assuming the above should read "...by linking lack...":

I think this is a tricky discussion. I can personally relate somewhat to the position you put forth. GM always said you cant do anything to get bhakti but you position yourself in such a way that bhakti will want to descend. This never quite clicked for me. The only way I can make sense of it (would like to hear from others about this) is that nothing you do means bhakti has to come, but certain things will attract her nonetheless. This is hairy because it is somewhat saying that material things (sattva specifically) can give rise to bhakti. But perhaps this is the case: certain qualities, like humility, are attractive to bhakti devi and the devotee who has bhakti, but it is know guarentee. Thus she is independent yet one can act in such a way as to endear the devotee/bhakti.

Another thought I was having in relation to this statement:

Can't this lead to complacency and downplay the importance of sincerity

I am wondering how many devotees actually become complacent as a direct result of this philosophical "problem". I am inclined to think that devotees become complacent first (due to the up-and-down nature of unsteady practice: i.e. conditioning), and this is a place in which they can rationalize such complacency. So I guess I think in an actual circumstance where a devotee was having difficulty and presented these concepts, a mere refutation of this theoretical point would not be adequate to re-enliven them. Just some thoughts. GM has stressed to me that one can be enthusiastic at any point in their spiritual attainment.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - November 9, 2008 4:06 pm

This point has been a point of contention in many Vaisnava sampradayas. Like say for Madhva there is no problem as all things as predetermined and there is no question of freewill. Then the split in the Sri Sampradaya into two divisions happened on this issue also. The southern school believes that we just have to take the initiation and rest will be done by bhakti devi; we don't need to endeavor, it will come when it needs to come. The northern school believes that endeavour is necessary to attract the mercy of bhakti devi. But for GV they have concept of both sadhana siddha and krpa siddha and then Jiva Gosvami does explain about bhakti from the damodar lila as a combination of one;s sincerity and divine mercy. Certainly in some cases mercy alone is sufficient like for a krpa siddha and things follow automatically. I meant it is a complex area; for instance it is not there is a set rule that 1 year quality of jnata sukriti will work the same on all individual souls and lead to sraddha. There is no precise mathematical formula, it is also dependent of minute volition of the soul to be receptive to that sukriti.

For instance in the B.G 6.44 purport prabhupada writes:

aho bata śva-paco 'to garīyān

yaj-jihvāgre vartate nāma tubhyam

tepus tapas te juhuvuḥ sasnur āryā

brahmānūcur nāma gṛṇanti ye te

"O my Lord! Persons who chant the holy names of Your Lordship are far, far advanced in spiritual life, even if born in families of dog-eaters. Such chanters have undoubtedly performed all kinds of austerities and sacrifices, bathed in all sacred places, and finished all scriptural studies."

The famous example of this was presented by Lord Caitanya, who accepted Ṭhākura Haridāsa as one of His most important disciples. Although Ṭhākura Haridāsa happened to take his birth in a Muslim family, he was elevated to the post of nāmācārya by Lord Caitanya due to his rigidly attended principle of chanting three hundred thousand holy names of the Lord daily: Hare Kṛṣṇa, Hare Kṛṣṇa, Kṛṣṇa Kṛṣṇa, Hare Hare/ Hare Rāma, Hare Rāma, Rāma Rāma, Hare Hare. And because he chanted the holy name of the Lord constantly, it is understood that in his previous life he must have passed through all the ritualistic methods of the Vedas, known as śabda-brahma

So SP is talking of a sadhana siddha here and in general you say that one has passed through other stages of sacrifices before coming to bhakti. You can see that Krsna also distinguishes among four kinds of people who come to him: one who is searching just for the Absolute truth is most dear to him. Obviously that means this particular person will benefit the most from descent of bhakti devi compared to others as seen by practical experience. Other souls may not be able to progress as fast and have a tendency to regress. Similarly in S.B there is a verse talking about how material exhaustion is necessary to completely immerse one's self in bhakti.( I don't remember the verse) Same amount of sukriti will work differently for different souls according to their minute freewill. But it is hard to demarcate the line between predetermination and freewill. Obviously when one gets a glimpse of genuine bhakti his endeavor is minuscule in front of the mercy but that will push him to perform more devotional service

Bijaya Kumara Das - November 9, 2008 6:30 pm

. We are perennialists, not modernists, postmodernists, or premodernists.

Very nice to know this Guru Maharaja. I have always felt this in you. Always growing and expanding. Seed or the Tree concept. Perpetual in existance. Manifiesting and unmanisfesting now and forever and in each step trying by grace and effort to keep Rhada Krsna at the center.

Premanandini - November 9, 2008 7:12 pm

Very nice to know this Guru Maharaja. I have always felt this in you. Always growing and expanding. Seed or the Tree concept. Perpetual in existance. Manifiesting and unmanisfesting now and forever and in each step trying by grace and effort to keep Rhada Krsna at the center.

. We are perennialists, not modernists, postmodernists, or premodernists.

what is a preennialist??????????????????

Guru-nistha Das - November 10, 2008 2:03 am

Yes but there maybe complacency setting in my linking lack of sincerity to lack of sukriti.

I guess we can always be as sincere as our sukriti affords us to (wow, how deep). I think there's no question of comlacency if you act according to your adhikara, because it's natural. I'd say we have freewill to either act according to our adhikara and thus move progressively on the path, or become complacent and turn away from the potential we have for bhakti.

The whole question of free will vs. sukriti/predestination is very interesting, and it seems like the Gaudiya siddhanta is on a gray area in relation to it. I think about it like this: the people who try really hard seem to get more taste and experience from their sadhana. If I'm able to try harder by deciding to do so, it's more likely that I will get more taste too. I believe everybody's free to try harder. It's just a matter of sukriti how hard one is able to try. Practical.

Swami - November 10, 2008 2:42 am

I guess we can always be as sincere as our sukriti affords us to (wow, how deep). I think there's no question of comlacency if you act according to your adhikara, because it's natural. I'd say we have freewill to either act according to our adhikara and thus move progressively on the path, or become complacent and turn away from the potential we have for bhakti.

 

The whole question of free will vs. sukriti/predestination is very interesting, and it seems like the Gaudiya siddhanta is on a gray area in relation to it. I think about it like this: the people who try really hard seem to get more taste and experience from their sadhana. If I'm able to try harder by deciding to do so, it's more likely that I will get more taste too. I believe everybody's free to try harder. It's just a matter of sukriti how hard one is able to try. Practical.

There are varying opinions everywhere with regard to free will vs determinism, as Gaura Vijaya has pointed out. But Bhaktivinoda Thakura is very clear on this point: The jiva has minute free will. Effort and grace are required.

Sri Baladeva Vidyabhusaa gives an example something like this in Govinda-bhasya.

In the performance of actions, the soul is not absolutely free, as it depends on differences of place, time and efficient causes. But an agent does not cease to be so because it is in need of assistance. A cook remains the agent in the action of cooking, although he needs fuel, water, etc. His function as a cook exists at all times.

Also see Svetasvatara 5.8

"Of the size of a thumb, but brilliant, like the sun, the jiva possesses both volition and egoism. It is endowed with the qualities of both buddhi and Atman. Therefore it is seen as another entity, inferior and small as the point of a goad.

Prema-bhakti - November 11, 2008 4:59 pm

I guess we can always be as sincere as our sukriti affords us to (wow, how deep). I think there's no question of comlacency if you act according to your adhikara, because it's natural. I'd say we have freewill to either act according to our adhikara and thus move progressively on the path, or become complacent and turn away from the potential we have for bhakti.

 

The whole question of free will vs. sukriti/predestination is very interesting, and it seems like the Gaudiya siddhanta is on a gray area in relation to it. I think about it like this: the people who try really hard seem to get more taste and experience from their sadhana. If I'm able to try harder by deciding to do so, it's more likely that I will get more taste too. I believe everybody's free to try harder. It's just a matter of sukriti how hard one is able to try. Practical.

I have a few questions related to this.

How does sukrti differ from adhikara? Which one of these determines one's ability to take advantage of sadhu-sanga, etc.? Is sukrti a finite element that expires when one develops sraddha? Does sukrti “run out” and then we are left with our adhikara? How does adhikara increase?

Sridama Dasa - November 12, 2008 3:30 am

It's just a matter of sukriti how hard one is able to try. Practical.

I had the same questions as Prema above, and I'm also getting stuck on this last line in Guru-nistha's post. Some of us are able to try harder than others? On one hand I get it, but on the other it seems like we could use that as an excuse for our complacency, when -- in my case at least -- I know it's just a lack of focus and my 'fault' alone.

Bijaya Kumara Das - November 12, 2008 8:07 am

QUOTE(Swami @ Nov 3 2008, 03:56 PM)

. We are perennialists, not modernists, postmodernists, or premodernists.

 

what is a preennialist??????????????????

A living organism that blooms annually or perpetually instead of one time

Bhrigu - November 12, 2008 11:41 am

A living organism that blooms annually or perpetually instead of one time

I think that is more a definition of a perennial plant. According to Wikipedia, usually perennialism is used to designate the common, eternal philosophy that underlies all religions. Here is how Aldous Huxley defines the perennial philosophy :

the metaphysic that recognizes a divine Reality substantial to the world of things and lives and minds; the psychology that finds in the soul something similar to, or even identical with, divine Reality; the ethic that places man's final end in the knowledge of the immanent and transcendent Ground of all being; the thing is immemorial and universal. Rudiments of the perennial philosophy may be found among the traditional lore of primitive peoples in every region of the world, and in its fully developed forms it has a place in every one of the higher religions.

(The Perennial Philosophy, p. vii)

Nitaisundara Das - November 12, 2008 6:04 pm

in Huxleys same book he also says the perennial philosophy is best expressed with "tat tvam asi"......India takes the lead

Bijaya Kumara Das - November 13, 2008 6:10 am

I think that is more a definition of a perennial plant. According to Wikipedia, usually perennialism is used to designate the common, eternal philosophy that underlies all religions. Here is how Aldous Huxley defines the perennial philosophy :

 

the metaphysic that recognizes a divine Reality substantial to the world of things and lives and minds; the psychology that finds in the soul something similar to, or even identical with, divine Reality; the ethic that places man's final end in the knowledge of the immanent and transcendent Ground of all being; the thing is immemorial and universal. Rudiments of the perennial philosophy may be found among the traditional lore of primitive peoples in every region of the world, and in its fully developed forms it has a place in every one of the higher religions.

 

(The Perennial Philosophy, p. vii)

aha yes but Lord Brahman bloomed forth from the navel of Vishnu

Guru-nistha Das - November 14, 2008 3:47 am

I have a few questions related to this.

 

How does sukrti differ from adhikara? Which one of these determines one's ability to take advantage of sadhu-sanga, etc.? Is sukrti a finite element that expires when one develops sraddha? Does sukrti “run out” and then we are left with our adhikara? How does adhikara increase?

I talked about this with Guru Maharaja, and he said that the difference is like between money and purchasing power. you accumulate money and that manifests as purchasing power. They are very similar but have a subtle distinction. You gather sukriti from associating with sadhus, which in turn increases your adhikara or purchasing power for bhakti.

Guru Maharaja said that sukriti, sraddha, nistha, ruci etc. are all just different names for different aspects of divine faith or bhakti. So it wouldn't be accurate to say that sukriti vanishes at some point in a sadhaka's life.

Adhikara increases by sadhu-sanga, just like sukriti.

Guru-nistha Das - November 14, 2008 3:51 am

I had the same questions as Prema above, and I'm also getting stuck on this last line in Guru-nistha's post. Some of us are able to try harder than others? On one hand I get it, but on the other it seems like we could use that as an excuse for our complacency, when -- in my case at least -- I know it's just a lack of focus and my 'fault' alone.

Right, but focus increases when sukriti increases. The more adhikara you have the more naturally interested you are in bhakti, and if you're really interested in something, you'll be able to put so much effort into it. It just blows be away how much effort many people are able to put into their career and stuff. It's actually enviable, the focus they have!

Prema-bhakti - November 14, 2008 4:47 am

I talked about this with Guru Maharaja, and he said that the difference is like between money and purchasing power. you accumulate money and that manifests as purchasing power. They are very similar but have a subtle distinction. You gather sukriti from associating with sadhus, which in turn increases your adhikara or purchasing power for bhakti.

 

Guru Maharaja said that sukriti, sraddha, nistha, ruci etc. are all just different names for different aspects of divine faith or bhakti. So it wouldn't be accurate to say that sukriti vanishes at some point in a sadhaka's life.

 

Adhikara increases by sadhu-sanga, just like sukriti.

Thanks Guru-nistha.

So the more we associate with sadhus the more bhakti sukriti we gather which increases our eligibility in this life for bhakti as well as into the next life. It sounded to me from previous posts that sukriti simply got one in the door at some moment in their spiritual evolution.

Prema-bhakti - November 14, 2008 5:46 pm

...and then it runs out at some point when we "seem" to not be able to go further in our spiritual progress. What is happening when we "hit a wall" in our spiritual lives? Have we exhausted our purchasing power, our line of credit has run out. Or as in GN's example we can only apply ourselves to the process as much as we have accumulated sukriti in the past? Sometimes devotees may get stuck somewhere along the road for long stretches and are either unable to take shelter of sadhus or take shelter and seemingly remain stuck.

Karnamrita Das - November 14, 2008 9:20 pm

...and then it runs out at some point when we "seem" to not be able to go further in our spiritual progress. What is happening when we "hit a wall" in our spiritual lives? Have we exhausted our purchasing power, our line of credit has run out. Or as in GN's example we can only apply ourselves to the process as much as we have accumulated sukriti in the past? Sometimes devotees may get stuck somewhere along the road for long stretches and are either unable to take shelter of sadhus or take shelter and seemingly remain stuck.

Many devotees have described the vast intermediate zone of anartha nivritti where one may appear to be "doing" all the right things in their sadhana, but the progress seems flat. And then there is Vaishnava aparadha, that puts one in reverse, or it seems the worst thing is one keeps dragging on with no taste like Ramachandra Puri. He didn't seem to get a reaction for his criticism of Lord Chaitanya, whereas others got leprosy etc from their aparadha, and then mercy.

We are talking theory here, though it can be useful for everyone to look at their own lives and how there are ups and downs, and when it KC seems flat. I have never pushed very hard in my spiritual life and as a result from my perspective I am a mediocre devotee. Lack of sukriti, offenses, complacency? Perhaps a little bit of all of them though part of it is my indifferent nature--which has both a good and bad side--so then we could say some types of karmic tendencies make it more difficult to make advancement. Some devotees struggle so much just with following the rules and chanting, while others follow very naturally, easily. When I hear in counseling of the struggles of even senior devotees it shows how difficult it can be to advance.

I realize that the sukriti one is born with is not as powerful as association with a real saintly devotee, yet it seems ones conditioning can be a big stumbling block in our spiritual life. Spiritual life is about change, yet it is not easy. So I pray for blessings and mercy. Otherwise it is hard to imagine how i will rise above and overcome complacency and conditioning.

Swami - November 15, 2008 12:35 am

...and then it runs out at some point when we "seem" to not be able to go further in our spiritual progress. What is happening when we "hit a wall" in our spiritual lives? Have we exhausted our purchasing power, our line of credit has run out. Or as in GN's example we can only apply ourselves to the process as much as we have accumulated sukriti in the past? Sometimes devotees may get stuck somewhere along the road for long stretches and are either unable to take shelter of sadhus or take shelter and seemingly remain stuck.

Sadhu sanga is always the answer to our seeming inability to progress. Lack of interest in sadhu sanga results from aparadha.

Swami - November 15, 2008 1:34 am

I think that the connection made with sadhu sanga here in the first verse is perhaps the least overt of the connections between the nine stages of bhakti and the eight verses of Siksastakam. One could reason that the connection is also implied in the second verse, as is bhajana kriya. Otherwise the connection between the balance of the nine stages and the remaining verses is quite clear, although it takes a commentary to bring it out.

Prema-bhakti - November 16, 2008 12:09 am

Could we say that bhakti samskaras are also an aspect or expression of divine faith like sukriti and adhikara or is it something different?

Vrindaranya Dasi - November 17, 2008 3:20 pm

So we are discussing sraddha (faith). Mahaprabhu seeks to awaken this faith with the words param vijayate sri krsna sankirtanam. This is the first stage. Sri Krsnadasa writes about it thus,

 

sadhu-sange krsna-bhaktye sraddha yadi haya

bhakti-phala ‘prema’ haya, samsara yaya ksaya

 

“By associating with a devotee, one awakens his faith in devotional service to Krsna. Because of devotional service, one’s dormant love for Krsna awakens, and thus one’s material, conditioned existence comes to an end." (Srila Prabhupada's translation)

 

Then he cites the Bhagavatam to support his statement:

 

yadrcchaya mat-kathadau

jata-sraddhas tu yah puman

na nirvinno nati-sakto

bhakti-yogo ‘sya siddhi-dah

 

“‘Somehow or other, if one is attracted to talks about Me and has faith in the instructions I have set forth in the Bhagavad-gita, and if one is neither falsely detached from material things nor very much attracted to material existence, his dormant love for Me will be awakened by devotional service." (Prabhupada again)

 

Does anyone have a copy of uddhava-gita (within the Bhagavatam) with the commentaries of BSST and VCT? It would be interesting to see how they comment on this verse.

tatrabhavad bhagavan vyasa-putro

yadrcchaya gam atamano 'napeksah

alaksya-lingo nija-labha-tusto

vrtas ca balair avadhuta-vesah

tatra -- there; abhavat -- appeared; bhagavan -- powerful; vyasa-putrah -- son of Vyasadeva; yadrcchaya -- as one desires; gam -- the earth; atamanah -- while traveling; anapeksah -- disinterested; alaksya -- unmanifested; lingah -- symptoms; nija-labha -- self-realized; tustah -- satisfied; vrtah -- surrounded; ca -- and; balaih -- by children; avadhuta -- neglected by others; vesah -- dressed.

"At that moment there appeared the powerful son of Vyasadeva, who traveled over the earth disinterested and satisfied with himself. He did not manifest any symptoms of belonging to any social order or status of life. He was surrounded with women and children, and he dressed as if others had neglected him." (Srila Prabhupada's translation)

Literally the word "yadrcchaya" means whose (yat) desire (icchaya). It has been translated as "own volition." A translation of the second line of the above SB verse that would better fit with VCT's commentary would be, "who traveled over the earth indifferent to material desires, motivated by his own volition." In other words, it is a devotee's independent desire that gives us bhakti. Sukadeva was wandering the earth by his own whim, distributing bhakti.

In the above translation of 11.20.8, "Somehow or other, if one is attracted to talks about Me..." the "somehow or other" is a translation of yadrcchaya. From VCT's comments, we can understand "somehow or other" more clearly. Whose desire (yadrcchaya) results in our attraction to talks about Krsna? The devotee's.

VCT gives further illumination on this point in Madhurya Kadambini. There he says,

In the Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.20.8) it is stated:

 

yadrcchaya mat-kathadau jata-sraddhas tu yah puman

na nirvinno nati-sakto bhakti-yogo 'sya siddhi-dah

 

Bhakti has been described by the word yadrcchaya, or “own volition.” Again, in Sridhara Svami's commentary on this verse, he writes that bhakti is free to act at will. The dictionary meaning of the word yadrcchaya is “spontaneous and independent”. Some persons interpret the meaning of yadrcchaya as “a sort of luck or fortune”. But when explained in this way there are bound to be apparent fallacies. For example, is this fortune because of pious activities? or misfortune because of impious acts? or simply a lack of good actions? If we accept that good fortune as a result of pious activities creates bhakti then it makes bhakti dependent upon, and subservient to, pious activities. In other words, this explanation infringes upon the principle of bhakti's free will.

 

If we agree to the other suggestion that lack of good fortune gives birth to bhakti then we admit that such fortunes are capricious, unpredictable, and therefore imperfect. How can the imperfect produce anything that is perfect? And if one says that the Supreme Lord' mercy is the ultimate cause of bhakti then one has to again undergo tedious research to pinpoint the cause of His mercy. It is certain that after much probing and speculation a single irrefutable cause will not be established. In following this line of thought, confusion reigns. On the other hand, if we agree that bhakti impregnates the devotee's heart as a result of Krsna's causeless mercy, then understanding this become easier. Yet one may raise the question as to why the Lord's mercy often seen to be unequally dispensed. Is the Supreme Lord guilty partiality? If the Lord's grace is causeless then He must shower it everywhere without consideration, but it is seen that His mercy is not freely given to all. Should we blame Krsna for being biased, or even unfair? The open discrimination the Lord practices against the demons by killing them, and the favor he shows towards His devotee does not tarnish the Lord's reputation, but rather becomes an embellishment in His character. Krsna's quality of bhakta-vatsalya; His protective affection towards the devotees, surpasses His other transcendental excellences. (The Eighth Chapter will deal with this point in detail.)

It is frequently pointed out that the pure devotee's mercy is also the cause of devotion. Just as the Lord's mercy is known to be causeless, so His devotees who possess the same qualities as the Lord also shower their causeless mercy. Hence, when we declare that the devotee's causeless mercy is the reason which inspires bhakti but that bhakti is not being equally distributed, naturally this will be criticized as partiality. Though it is wrong to say that the causeless mercy of both the Lord and the pure devotee is prejudiced, we read in the Srimad-Bhagavatam (11.2.46), The madhyam adhikari offers his love to the Supreme Personality of Godhead, is a sincere friend to all the devotees of the Lord, shows mercy to ignorant people who are innocent and disregards those who are envious of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

These characteristics clearly indicate that the madhyam adhikari devotee does not distribute his mercy equally to everyone. The truth is that the Supreme Lord is subservient to His devotee's wishes; therefore He emulates His devotee in disbursing mercy. Based on this fact it is easy to see that if the madhyam devotee is merciful to someone the Lord automatically showers His mercy on that recipient. This conclusion is sound in all respects.

The single cause that attracts the mercy of the Lord is the bhakti that permanently resides in the pure devotee's heart. In other words, Krsna's mercy will not be invoked without that bhakti within the heart of His devotee which attracts His mercy to appear in the first place. Therefore, because bhakti is completely independent, even from previous piety and good fortune, it is undisputedly confirmed that bhakti is self-manifest. As mentioned earlier, devotion is the only cause of devotion; Bhakti-devi does not require any cause or reason to appear other than her own sweet will.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - November 19, 2008 5:04 pm

By reading the above translations, it is not apparent how the Bhagavatam verse serves as support for Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami's verse in terms of the genesis of bhakti being the association of a devotee. The connection that Krsnadasa Kaviraja Goswami is making between these verses is clarified by VCT in his commentary on SB 11.20.8. He says, "The word yadrcchaya has been explained in the First Canto of the Srimad-Bhagavatam. One develops faith in discussions of the Supreme Lord by the association of advanced devotees." The verse that VCT is referring to is SB 1.19.25:

 

tatrabhavad bhagavan vyasa-putro

yadrcchaya gam atamano 'napeksah

alaksya-lingo nija-labha-tusto

vrtas ca balair avadhuta-vesah

 

tatra -- there; abhavat -- appeared; bhagavan -- powerful; vyasa-putrah -- son of Vyasadeva; yadrcchaya -- as one desires; gam -- the earth; atamanah -- while traveling; anapeksah -- disinterested; alaksya -- unmanifested; lingah -- symptoms; nija-labha -- self-realized; tustah -- satisfied; vrtah -- surrounded; ca -- and; balaih -- by children; avadhuta -- neglected by others; vesah -- dressed.

 

"At that moment there appeared the powerful son of Vyasadeva, who traveled over the earth disinterested and satisfied with himself. He did not manifest any symptoms of belonging to any social order or status of life. He was surrounded with women and children, and he dressed as if others had neglected him." (Srila Prabhupada's translation)

 

Literally the word "yadrcchaya" means whose (yat) desire (icchaya). It has been translated as "own volition." A translation of the second line of the above SB verse that would better fit with VCT's commentary would be, "who traveled over the earth indifferent to material desires, motivated by his own volition." In other words, it is a devotee's independent desire that gives us bhakti. Sukadeva was wandering the earth by his own whim, distributing bhakti.

 

In the above translation of 11.20.8, "Somehow or other, if one is attracted to talks about Me..." the "somehow or other" is a translation of yadrcchaya. From VCT's comments, we can understand "somehow or other" more clearly. Whose desire (yadrcchaya) results in our attraction to talks about Krsna? The devotee's.

 

VCT gives further illumination on this point in Madhurya Kadambini. There he says,

I just said that even if bhakti chooses to descend itself there is a minute volition on the part of the jiva to accept the grace or else the explanation of Jiva Gosvami on the Damodar Lila or of BVt on free will is rendered meaningless. Like GM said,VCT makes it is special point to emphasize bhakti too much to make it antinomian to the extreme. To just thrust on the fact that there is no role sincerity has to play in progressing on bhakti and it is only the decision of bhakti devi on who can progress on bhakti and by how much, we cant even identify with the perennialist idea at all. We can't find any goodness in any conception borne out of anybody's sincerity as their sincerity is meaningless; only bhakti devi decides not only when to descend but even to the minutest detail how much one can progress in bhakti. The voluntary alignment of the will of the jiva with the supreme is out of question as bhakti devi decides for the jiva completely so the jiva should be completely absolved of any responsibility.

I though found the idea that we should feel and know as if our progress depends on the grace but work as if it is dependent on our effort.

Swami - November 20, 2008 3:58 pm

I just said that even if bhakti chooses to descend itself there is a minute volition on the part of the jiva to accept the grace or else the explanation of Jiva Gosvami on the Damodar Lila or of BVt on free will is rendered meaningless. Like GM said,VCT makes it is special point to emphasize bhakti too much to make it antinomian to the extreme. To just thrust on the fact that there is no role sincerity has to play in progressing on bhakti and it is only the decision of bhakti devi on who can progress on bhakti and by how much, we cant even identify with the perennialist idea at all. We can't find any goodness in any conception borne out of anybody's sincerity as their sincerity is meaningless; only bhakti devi decides not only when to descend but even to the minutest detail how much one can progress in bhakti. The voluntary alignment of the will of the jiva with the supreme is out of question as bhakti devi decides for the jiva completely so the jiva should be completely absolved of any responsibility.

I though found the idea that we should feel and know as if our progress depends on the grace but work as if it is dependent on our effort.

The siddhanta is that bhakti is independent (as illustrated in Vrindaranya's post) and thus there is nothing that we can do to generate bhakti on our own. However, we do have the inherent capacity (as opposed to matter) to participate in bhakti should she decide to give herself to us. We also see that some souls give up the pursuit of bhakti, having been given the opportunity to engage in hearing and chanting. So there is no contradiction between the independence of bhakti and the jiva's minute free will. I may give you a ticket to the opera, but you may or may not choose to attend.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - November 20, 2008 5:52 pm

The siddhanta is that bhakti is independent (as illustrated in Vrindaranya's post) and thus there is nothing that we can do to generate bhakti on our own. However, we do have the inherent capacity (as opposed to matter) to participate in bhakti should she decide to give herself to us. We also see that some souls give up the pursuit of bhakti, having been given the opportunity to engage in hearing and chanting. So there is no contradiction between the independence of bhakti and the jiva's minute free will. I may give you a ticket to the opera, but you may or may not choose to attend.

Thank you GM. That is what I meant but Vrindaranya's post didn't seem to leave any room for the jiva to accept or reject the pursuit for bhakti once it descends. I got the impression that even the amount of receptivity of jiva to the grace is completely predetermined.

Swami - November 22, 2008 2:55 pm

Some thought about this section:

"Kirtana means glorification of another. It derives from the verbal root kirti, which means fame. It is that by which one makes the virtues of others well known, and that by which one becomes virtuous oneself. In general, one becomes glorious by praising others, as opposed to glorifying oneself. One can praise another’s name, qualities, form, or activities, making for different kinds of kirtana.

Here in Siksastakam, Sri Caitanya emphasizes nama-kirtana, but not kirtana of just any name. He calls for exclusive kirtana of the name of God, which is considered to be nondifferent from God himself. If there is any difference between Krsna and his name, it is that in the form of his name he is more approachable. Sri Rupa Gosvamipada has explained this in his Sri-krsna-namastakam:

O Harinama!

You manifest in two svarupas

as “named” and “name.”

The name’s fame exceeds that of the named.

What proof is there of this?

The name’s serious offender

upon becoming a repenter

with words and worship of this name

in a sea of bliss will always bathe.

Thus in the form of Krsna kirtana, Krsna nama is both high, being one with God, and highly accessible at the same time.

Mahaprabhu has further qualified his method of kirtana, advocating not only kirtana of the name of Krsna but sankirtana of Krsna nama. Sam means full, complete, and comprehensive. The word sankirtana implies comprehensive glorification that is both quantitatively and qualitatively so. Glorification is quantitatively complete if it is unanimous—if everyone present participates. Thus sankirtana suggests glorification in unison with other like-minded persons, and thereby the association of saintly persons—sadhu-sanga."

.......

Although kirtana glorifying the form, qualities, and lilas of Sri Krsna are considered "higher" then nama kirtana in that they require more adhikara in order to be appropriate and thereby effective, precedence is given to nama kirtana, but not merely because it is introductory or most accessible. Bhagavan's, form, qualities and lilas are all present in his name. Although one can engage in lila kirtana, etc. independently of nama kirtana, within the context of nama kirtana one will naturally become acquainted with Sri Krsna's form, qualities, and lilas. I once heard a well known imitationist argue that one can become perfect only by lila-kirtana. The truth is that one can become perfect by nama kirtana and evidence of such is experiential acquaintance with Krsna-lila via nama kirtana. This is the thrust of Bhaktisiddhnata Saraswati Thakura when he writes kirtana prabhave smarana svabhave, "The effect of kirtana is meditatation on one's svarupa."

Bijaya Kumara Das - November 23, 2008 8:57 am

wow !!! what a blessing Thank you Guru Maharaja

Swami - November 23, 2008 6:46 pm

Moving along, the following paragraph mentions samartha rati.

"The quality of Gaura Krsna ‘s sankirtana cannot be understood without mentioning Radha. The word sri in Gaura’s first verse speaks of Krsna’s divine consort. It is in pursuit of her love that Krsna becomes Gaura and sings in sankirtana. He sings in her mood, seeing himself through her eyes. No one knows Krsna better than Radha. Her love is called samartha-rati, competent love. It is capable of completely conquering Krsna, and as we shall see from the final sloka of Siksastakam, it is this kind of love that Sri Caitanya tastes and distributes in Sri Krsna sankirtana—the highest quality of love, Sri Radha’s prema in mahabhava."

I would like the devotees to understand samartha rati, Radha's love in comparison to Kubja's love in Mathura or Rukmini's in Dvaraka. You can look for more information in Bhaktirasamrta-sindhu, Cc, and Aesthetic Vedanta. So I am looking for answers.

What is samartha rati?

Madhavendra Puri Dasa - November 23, 2008 7:51 pm

From the quick search in Nectar of Devotion: samartha rati is an attitude that you are only interested in happiness of your beloved. Kubja approached Krishna with desire to fulfill her own desires, but Radharani thinks only about happiness of Krishna, not Her own. I am not completely sure about Rukimini's love. Is it not completely pure because she is still concerned with social acceptance, whereas gopis don't have such concerns any more?

Prema-bhakti - November 24, 2008 3:42 am

Samartha rati completely subdues Krsna. He is completely controlled by it. It has no beginning or cause and is characterized by the love of the Vraja gopis and in its highest as manifested in Radha.. It causes the gopis to forget everything including social etiquette and to completely forget themselves in their love for Krsna. Samartha rati develops into madhura prema, from sneha onwards up to mahabhava. It is constant.

Kubja's rati is not as intensified as the gopis. Her happiness depends on seeing Krsna and wanes in his absence.

Rukmini's rati is characterized as having a beginning or cause. She fell in love with Krsna in her youth and wanted to abide by social etiquette and be his wife. Her mamata is characterized by the wife and husband relationship.

Gandiva Dasi - November 24, 2008 12:47 pm

I found a question about samartha rati in the Sanga archives;

Q. In Srila Rupa Goswami's Ujjvala-nilamani various levels of prema (spiritual love) are described. Sadharani love is described as having some self-interest whereas samartha is described as being completely selfless, with the gopis of Vrndavana being the example. Samanjasa, as attributed to the queens of Dvaraka, is described as being a combination of both. This puzzles me because I always thought that all spiritual love was completely selfless. How can this be understood properly?

A. There is no material selfishness in any expression of transcendental love of God. However, in the drama of Krsna lila different degrees of selflessness in love of God are exhibited. For example, Rukmini was completely in love with Krsna but she still thought of her reputation and dharma as a princess, thus she never ran away to meet him but rather secretly sent a letter asking Krsna to kidnap her. On the other hand the gopis of Vrndavana disregarded social convention and dharma altogether and met Krsna in the dead of night. Although both Rukmini and the gopis love Krsna and are completely materially selfless, Rukmini exhibited a sense of self-concern that is not present in the gopis. Thus Caitanya Mahaprabhu taught that the gopis' love for Krsna is the highest expression of selflessness in love of God.

and something on Kubja;

Acaryas differ on their assessment of sambhogecchamayi, in which one aspires for a direct conjugal relationship with Krsna. For the most part such an aspiration is considered kamapraya, or “not quite” kamanuga/raganuga, as is exemplified by Kubja, who desired direct union with Krsna in Mathura. Her love contains elements of spiritual selfishness, whereas the Vraja gopis' love does not, and thus although they themselves are competent to be nayikas of Krsna, Lalita and Visakha subordinate themselves to the supreme nayika, Sri Radha. If, however, sambhogecchamayi is taken to refer to the aspiration for becoming a direct mistress of Krsna in Vraja, as in the case of Radha or Candravali, such a desire is still a secondary expression of kamanuga/raganuga bhakti, as it would involve competing with those such as Candravali and especially Radha, who are more competent to satisfy Krsna. In this scenario, such kamanuga would be possessed of a degree of spiritual selfishness.

I found this in Jaiva Dharma

Vijaya, “How many types of mädhurya-rati are there?”

Gosvämi, “There are three kinds: sädhärani, ordinary, samanjasä, good, proper, balanced; and samarthä, boundless. Kubjä is the example of sädhärani-rati. Kubjä desired her personal enjoyment with Krsna and because this rati is rooted in the desire for selfish enjoyment, it is to be shunned as being of an inferior nature. The rati experienced by the queens of Dvärakä is samanjasä-rati, appropriate attachment, because it is evoked through the codes of marital conduct and tempered by social norms. The gopis of Vraja have samarthä-rati, boundless attachment, which thus transcends all social norms and religiosity. It is not the case that samarthä is asamanjasä, improper behaviour; rather, according to absolute transcendental analysis, it is actually ati-samajnasä, harmonious and most proper in all respects.

“Sädhärani-rati, as displayed by Kubjä, may be compared to a valuable jewel; the samanjasä-rati of the Dvärakä queens is like a Cintämani, touchstone gem; and the samarthä-rati of the gopis is like the most precious Kaustubha gem—there is no more valuable object in all the three worlds.”...

sädhärani-rati does not surpass prema; samanjasä-rati is limited to anuräga; and samarthä-rati reaches mahäbhäva.”

Vijaya, “What is the extent of rati in sakhya-rasa?”

Gosvämi, “The narma-vayasya-sakhä experiences rati up to anuräga, but the sakhäs like Subala experience even mahäbhäva.”

Tadiya Dasi - November 25, 2008 6:22 pm

I would like the devotees to understand samartha rati, Radha's love in comparison to Kubja's love in Mathura or Rukmini's in Dvaraka. You can look for more information in Bhaktirasamrta-sindhu, Cc, and Aesthetic Vedanta. So I am looking for answers.

I think it's a question of degrees of "self" awareness in their love towards Krishna. What I mean is that in Kubja's case, she wanted to enjoy with Krishna, so a sense of self was there, and Rukmini had concern for her own reputation (she did not want to violate vedic norms, though completely in love with Krishna), while Radha has no concern for herself whatsoever and she embodies the highest sense of selflessness in this sense.

I hope I'm making sense....(off to research this some more )

Swami - November 29, 2008 4:50 am

I think it's a question of degrees of "self" awareness in their love towards Krishna. What I mean is that in Kubja's case, she wanted to enjoy with Krishna, so a sense of self was there, and Rukmini had concern for her own reputation (she did not want to violate vedic norms, though completely in love with Krishna), while Radha has no concern for herself whatsoever and she embodies the highest sense of selflessness in this sense.

 

I hope I'm making sense....(off to research this some more )

Yes, a lot of sense! In other words our goal is not self awareness after all, but rather self forgetfulness (having passed through self awareness/realization).

Madhavendra, Prema-bhakti, and Gandiva, all of you have done a good job as well, citing the terms in contrast with samartha, etc. It's god to read BVT's translations of these terms as cited by Gandiva in the Thakura's Jaiva Dharma. This takes the mystery out of them. I liked BVT's ati samanjasa (extremely appropriate) explanatipn of samartha in contrast to the appropriateness of the samanjasa (appropriate) love of Rukmini and the queens of Dvaraka who are married to Krsna. In other words, while the queens love may be appropriate by Vedic standards (and conservative social standards of today), being married love, the gopis boundless/capable/competent/strong (samartha) love that transcends Vedic dharma being unmarried love should not be considered inappropriate/improper (asamanjasa) but rather ati (very) samanjasa (appropriate). Why? Because it pleases Krsna so much. And dharma is after all that which satisfies Hari. As the Bhagavatam states, samsiddhir (perfection [of dharma]) hari (God) tosanam (satisfaction) "The perfection of an action (the extent to which it is dharmic) is determined by how much it satisfies God."

It is also important to note that while the love of Mathura is considered higher than that of Dvaraka, in the example of Kubja this is not the case. Her sadharani (ordinary love) is not more pleasing to God than Rukmini's love. It is the proximity of Mathura to Vraja (Mathura-mandala) and Sri Krsna's being less than a king with a kingdom there (kind of in between being a cowherd and a king) that makes him more accessible and lovable in Mathura.

Some higher theology here leaving perennialism in the dust, the vraja-rajas (dust of Vraja) that is. So let's not neglect this thread!

Prema-bhakti - November 29, 2008 5:52 pm

It is also important to note that while the love of Mathura is considered higher than that of Dvaraka, in the example of Kubja this is not the case. Her sadharani (ordinary love) is not more pleasing to God than Rukmini's love. It is the proximity of Mathura to Vraja (Mathura-mandala) and Sri Krsna's being less than a king with a kingdom there (kind of in between being a cowherd and a king) that makes him more accessible and lovable in Ma

Thank you Guru Maharaja for clarifying this. I was wondering about this and I was thinking that Kubja being a Mathura-vasi her love would be more intensified than Rukmini's representing the prema of the Dwarka-vasis.

It makes me wonder though if a resident's love necessarily represents the type of intimacy Krsna displays there or is Kubja some kind of exception.

Swami - November 29, 2008 6:26 pm

Thank you Guru Maharaja for clarifying this. I was wondering about this and I was thinking that Kubja being a Mathura-vasi her love would be more intensified than Rukmini's representing the prema of the Dwarka-vasis.

 

It makes me wonder though if a resident's love necessarily represents the type of intimacy Krsna displays there or is Kubja some kind of exception.

We don't hear much about the residents of Mathura in terms of their love for Krsna because once he came there he quickly killed Kamsa and took everyone to Dvaraka, where he reigned like a king. We do hear of Vasudeva and Devaki's parental love and of ladies viewing him from their balconies as he entered Mathura, but not much more.

Kubja is an exception. In the prakata lila such things occur.

Prema-bhakti - November 29, 2008 6:55 pm

Her sadharani (ordinary love) is not more pleasing to God than Rukmini's love.

Why is this so? In Gandiva's post of quotes it is stated that Kubja's love can be considered to almost mirror sambogecchamayi although "not quite kamanuga" it is considered kamapraya containing some element of spiritual selfishness therefore it is considered inappropriate. Is this reasoning at the core of the Gaudiya commentators categorizing her love as inferior to that of the Dwarka-vasis although it seemingly appears more like the love of the Vraja-vasis in terms of being unconcerned with etiquette and social convention.

Swami - November 29, 2008 7:55 pm

Why is this so? In Gandiva's post of quotes it is stated that Kubja's love can be considered to almost mirror sambogecchamayi although "not quite kamanuga" it is considered kamapraya containing some element of spiritual selfishness therefore it is considered inappropriate. Is this reasoning at the core of the Gaudiya commentators categorizing her love as inferior to that of the Dwarka-vasis although it seemingly appears more like the love of the Vraja-vasis in terms of being unconcerned with etiquette and social convention.

As cited above in JD, "Kubja desired her personal enjoyment with Krsna and because this rati is rooted in the desire for selfish enjoyment, it is to be shunned as being of an inferior nature." The term kama-praya is used both in relation to the gopis who desire a direct conjugal relationship with Krsna (sambhogecchamayi)—as opposed to an indirect one that follows in the wake of serving Radha (tad-bhaecchamayi)—as well as in relation to Kubja. However, the use of the term is different in each instance. When used to describe such gopis it means that they had a desire to please Krsna directly via conjugal love. Whereas when it is used to describe Kubja's love it refers to the fact that she desired to satisfy herself conjugally in relation to Krsna.

Citta Hari Dasa - November 30, 2008 12:55 am

Okay, the difference between Kubja and the gopis is clear, but what's the difference between the love of Kubja and the queens of Dvaraka? Is it that Rukmini wanted Krsna as her husband and that this is more dharmic and thus more pleasing to him? And if Kubja is an exception, perhaps even an anomaly, then what is the point of the Bhagavata going into so much detail in telling her story? How can sadhakas benefit from it?

When used to describe such gopis it means that they had a desire to please Krsna directly via conjugal love. Whereas when it is used to describe Kubja's love it refers to the fact that she desired to satisfy herself conjugally in relation to Krsna.

Swami - November 30, 2008 9:26 pm

Okay, the difference between Kubja and the gopis is clear, but what's the difference between the love of Kubja and the queens of Dvaraka? Is it that Rukmini wanted Krsna as her husband and that this is more dharmic and thus more pleasing to him? And if Kubja is an exception, perhaps even an anomaly, then what is the point of the Bhagavata going into so much detail in telling her story? How can sadhakas benefit from it?

Kubja is a complex figure. Her name means “crooked.” As we have been discussing, she is an example of sadharani bhava. Sadharana means ordinary, common, or even mundane. So one explanation of her love is that she is an example of how one can approach the perfect object of love even with the wrong motive and achieve an unexpected and even transcendental result. However, although this maybe true it is not the recommended approach. Note that in spite of her inappropriate desire she offered sandalwood paste to Krsna and that this act improved her overall situation. Note also that although Krsna purified her, he did not fulfill her desire.

Sri Jiva Goswami asks, “Why is Kubja praised? The answer is given in SB 10.18.11. There it is said (speaking of Kubja), ‘One who chooses the benediction of mundane sense-gratification is certainly of poor intelligence.’ The meaning here is that a girl who desires Bhagavan is supremely intelligent. Her desire to enjoy with the Lord removes hatred and a host of sin.”

So Kubja shows us both what not to do as well as what to do. In this way she he represents a materially conditioned soul who by the mercy of Krsna becomes liberated. Nevertheless her liberation and sadharani bhava is far inferior to that of the queens in Dvaraka and the gopis. She desired to to spend few days with Krsna, whereas the queens want to spend every night with him in marriage and the gopis can’t live without him even though he is married to others and they are as well.

The higher side of Kubja is that while she plays the part of a conditioned soul, in actuality she is a partial expansion of Krsna’s queen Satyabhama, who is Krsna’s internal energy Bhu-sakti. The Bhu-sakti’s partial expansion Prthivi represents the Earth, who when participating in Krsna-lila as Kubja was bent over or crippled by the burden of earthly rulers like Kamsa. Thus Kubja appeared as a hunchback. She offered sandalwood paste to Krsna, which as a fragrance corresponds with the earth element. Accepting her offering, Krsna straightened her out, apparently in more ways than one!

Robertnewman - November 30, 2008 10:36 pm

In other words our goal is not self awareness after all, but rather self forgetfulness (having passed through self awareness/realization).

This seems a bit problematic. Without self awareness, in what sense can the jiva be considered a person? In other words, how is self forgetfulness different from self annihilation?

Citta Hari Dasa - December 1, 2008 3:01 am

Thanks very much Guru Maharaja for this most excellent and comprehensive answer!

Kubja is a complex figure. Her name means “crooked.” As we have been discussing, she is an example of sadharani bhava. Sadharana means ordinary, common, or even mundane. So one explanation of her love is that she is an example of how one can approach the perfect object of love even with the wrong motive and achieve an unexpected and even transcendental result. However, although this maybe true it is not the recommended approach. Note that in spite of her inappropriate desire she offered sandalwood paste to Krsna and that this act improved her overall situation. Note also that although Krsna purified her, he did not fulfill her desire.

 

Sri Jiva Goswami asks, “Why is Kubja praised? The answer is given in SB 10.18.11. There it is said (speaking of Kubja), ‘One who chooses the benediction of mundane sense-gratification is certainly of poor intelligence.’ The meaning here is that a girl who desires Bhagavan is supremely intelligent. Her desire to enjoy with the Lord removes hatred and a host of sin.”

 

So Kubja shows us both what not to do as well as what to do. In this way she he represents a materially conditioned soul who by the mercy of Krsna becomes liberated. Nevertheless her liberation and sadharani bhava is far inferior to that of the queens in Dvaraka and the gopis. She desired to to spend few days with Krsna, whereas the queens want to spend every night with him in marriage and the gopis can’t live without him even though he is married to others and they are as well.

 

The higher side of Kubja is that while she plays the part of a conditioned soul, in actuality she is a partial expansion of Krsna’s queen Satyabhama, who is Krsna’s internal energy Bhu-sakti. The Bhu-sakti’s partial expansion Prthivi represents the Earth, who when participating in Krsna-lila as Kubja was bent over or crippled by the burden of earthly rulers like Kamsa. Thus Kubja appeared as a hunchback. She offered sandalwood paste to Krsna, which as a fragrance corresponds with the earth element. Accepting her offering, Krsna straightened her out, apparently in more ways than one!

Madhavendra Puri Dasa - December 1, 2008 8:36 am

Wow! Thank you for that Maharaja. Yestarday I went to the small Iskcon temple here, where just few devotees (very nice and simple guys) live and during the class I was so sorry for them, thinking about what you and your disciples are giving here and what they don't have.

Swami - December 1, 2008 1:46 pm

This seems a bit problematic. Without self awareness, in what sense can the jiva be considered a person? In other words, how is self forgetfulness different from self annihilation?

When one is forgetful of one's self, one's self will suffer only in as much as one's self consciousness is not redirected toward Krsna, the center. In love forgetting one's self does not amount to a loss of self. Here self forgetfulness means love, in which there is no calculation as to what one might gain as there is in a self conscious act of sacrifice. Self sacrifice does not result in a loss of self or self annihilation and less so self forgetfulness. Even in material life when one forgets one's self and performs a valorous act that puts one's self in danger we find that the person's sense of self grows as others take notice of him/her.

Self annihilation is something else altogether. It is a form of selfishness in which there is an unwillingness to serve/sacrifice/love.

Robertnewman - December 1, 2008 4:31 pm

Even in material life when one forgets one's self and performs a valorous act that puts one's self in danger we find that the person's sense of self grows as others take notice of him/her.

In material life, such self-forgetfulness is transient and when the crisis is over, normal self-awareness returns. The state of self-forgetfulness of a jiva in Krsna lila is presumably constant and eternal. I find it difficult to understand how the jiva could maintain any kind of individual identity in that condition, unless it included some sort of self-awareness in relation to Krsna, such as "I am this particular friend (or servant, or elder, or lover) of Krsna, I have these particular qualities with which I serve him, etc." I don't mean to imply that one would explicitly think in such terms, but there would seem to have to be some kind of consciousness along those lines to make a relationship possible.

If "self-forgetfulness" here means absence of self-centeredness and self-concern, there is no issue. But if it means total lack of self-awareness of any sort, I see a philosophical problem. Gaudiya Vaisnavism would then seem to lead to exactly the same destination (from the viewpoint of the individual) as the nebulous New Age notion of "merging into Love."

Madhavendra Puri Dasa - December 1, 2008 4:58 pm

If "self-forgetfulness" here means absence of self-centeredness and self-concern, there is no issue. But if it means total lack of self-awareness of any sort, I see a philosophical problem. Gaudiya Vaisnavism would then seem to lead to exactly the same destination (from the viewpoint of the individual) as the nebulous New Age notion of "merging into Love."

I think Maharaja has made it clear that self-forgetfulness doesn't mean lack of self-awereness. He wrote:

In love forgetting one's self does not amount to a loss of self. Here self forgetfulness means love, in which there is no calculation as to what one might gain as there is in a self conscious act of sacrifice. Self sacrifice does not result in a loss of self or self annihilation and less so self forgetfulness.

When you are in love on material platform, still while having the love experience, you keep your separate identity, but it is not self-centred one, but rather it is identity completely focused on beloved. You are right though that in material love sooner or later you go back to "normal" consciousness", but this is the beauty of spiritual love- you always stay high.

Robertnewman - December 1, 2008 8:50 pm

I think Maharaja has made it clear that self-forgetfulness doesn't mean lack of self-awareness.

That was the tenor of his reply to me, but the original statement that I quoted (and which he has often made) is certainly ambiguous and could easily be taken to indicate that the final end of bhakti involves the loss of identity. At least, it could be so taken by someone who had been exposed to Mayavada philosophy. So I think some clarification was needed.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - December 2, 2008 4:40 pm

That was the tenor of his reply to me, but the original statement that I quoted (and which he has often made) is certainly ambiguous and could easily be taken to indicate that the final end of bhakti involves the loss of identity. At least, it could be so taken by someone who had been exposed to Mayavada philosophy. So I think some clarification was needed.

I don't know why you think like that robert. GV has everything in it so there are times when you can lose your self awareness like when Chaitianya Mahaprabhu was banging against the wall and he was bleeding, or gopis enact out krsna's pastimes( in vaikuntha due to the awareness of the distinction between isvara and bhagavan this can't happen). GV has the best of everything, deepest absorption of a yogi along with the greatest service attitude. Why to just call it mayavada it is acintya abheda bheda. IN GPU also there is a verse where he says I am Gopala emphasizing that there is oneness too.

Bhrigu - December 2, 2008 8:09 pm

That was the tenor of his reply to me, but the original statement that I quoted (and which he has often made) is certainly ambiguous and could easily be taken to indicate that the final end of bhakti involves the loss of identity. At least, it could be so taken by someone who had been exposed to Mayavada philosophy. So I think some clarification was needed.

I think that one reason for Guru Maharaja's using the phrase "self-forgetfulness" is precisely that the term is familar to advaitins. He wishes to say that yes, we believe in the same things as you do -- but we go further still. Just like "From negative numbers to zero, and from there on to positive numbers"!

Swami - December 14, 2008 3:05 pm

I think that one reason for Guru Maharaja's using the phrase "self-forgetfulness" is precisely that the term is familar to advaitins. He wishes to say that yes, we believe in the same things as you do -- but we go further still. Just like "From negative numbers to zero, and from there on to positive numbers"!

Pujyapada SM coined this term "self forgetfulness." It is a forgetfulness of self interest but not of self altogether. In prema there is a sense of self that arises and is constituted of the svarupa-sakti, but this self is self dedicating without thinking about it, at least not thinking about the spirit of service while details are nonetheless thought out. There is not even the calculation that one should serve becasue it is the right thing to do. It is automatic. In love one sees no difference between one's own body and the body of one's love, no difference in the sense that it is seen as belonging to oneself as much as ones own body does. When we stub our toe, we automatically reach for it or express our identification with it without calculation, without thinking. In prema one identifies with Krsna's body as if it were one's own.

Swami - December 14, 2008 3:27 pm

With regard to samartha rati, a paragraph or so later the commentary states,

"The special concession of prema-sankirtana is a result of Sri Caitanya’s being Gaura Krsna, rather than Gaura Narayana. He is not the usual Kali-yuga avatara, who appears in the world to deliver people from birth and death by advocating the yuga-dharma. He is not an avatara of Narayana or Krsna but rather Krsna himself. Although he does teach the yuga-dharma, he has another internal agenda of his own. He does not chant merely taraka-brahma nama but paraka-brahma nama. Paraka means “competence.” Here it implies that the Hare Krsna nama-mantra is competent not only to deliver one from samsara but furthermore to give the treasure of prema. Thus Siksastakam’s phrase param vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam heralds the glory of that which is the best form of sadhana/sadhya, or spiritual practice that naturally leads to the highest form of spiritual perfection in prema. What then is the need for any other sadhana, and where can one find a higher sadhya?"

"Competance" above refers ultimately to samartha rati. Moving ahead my question here is regarding taraka vs paraka. It is mentioned that Rama nama can give deliverance but Krsna nama can give prema.

mukti-hetuka taraka haya ‘rama-nama’

’krsna-nama’ paraka hana kare prema-dana

"Rama nama delivers (taraka) or brings about mukti, whereas Krsna nama is competant (paraka) to give one the wealth of prema." (Cc 3.257)

So Rama nama cannot give prema?

Madhavendra Puri Dasa - December 14, 2008 4:13 pm

So Rama nama cannot give prema?

Do we understand prema as only the highest, madhurya love, or it relates to all relationships with Krishna?

If the second is truth, I would say that Rama name would also give prema (when Hanuman wanted to tear his heart out to find his Rama it sounded like prema), but I don't know how in such a case should we understand above verse from Cc.

(mukti-hetuka taraka haya ‘rama-nama’

’krsna-nama’ paraka hana kare prema-dana)

Swami - December 19, 2008 9:41 pm

Do we understand prema as only the highest, madhurya love, or it relates to all relationships with Krishna?

If the second is truth, I would say that Rama name would also give prema (when Hanuman wanted to tear his heart out to find his Rama it sounded like prema), but I don't know how in such a case should we understand above verse from Cc.

 

(mukti-hetuka taraka haya ‘rama-nama’

’krsna-nama’ paraka hana kare prema-dana)

You need to look the verse up and see the context in which it is found. We need more participation here.

In Brs. it is mentioned that there is also prema in Vaikuntha. However, Gaudiya acaryas have more or less laid claim to the word prema. After all, even other Vainava sampradayas consider mukti as the goal. "Prema prayojana" corresponds with a "fifth" goal of life beyond the fourth of mukti, and this is exclusive to Mahaprabhu's sampradaya. So for us by an large prema refers only to Goloka.

In the verse above Mahadeva's consort has discovered this prema (something she was not acquainted with previously) by the grace of Haridasa Thakura. Previously she only knew of Rama nama and of its power to deliver one from material existence as taught by her husband. She is speaking of a particular conception of Rama nama—not Radha Ramana Rama (Krsna) or Balarama.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - December 19, 2008 9:56 pm

You need to look the verse up and see the context in which it is found. We need more participation here.

 

In Brs. it is mentioned that there is also prema in Vaikuntha. However, Gaudiya acaryas have more or less laid claim to the word prema. After all, even other Vainava sampradayas consider mukti as the goal. "Prema prayojana" corresponds with a "fifth" goal of life beyond the fourth of mukti, and this is exclusive to Mahaprabhu's sampradaya. So for us by an large prema refers only to Goloka.

 

In the verse above Mahadeva's consort has discovered this prema (something she was not acquainted with previously) by the grace of Haridasa Thakura. Previously she only knew of Rama nama and of its power to deliver one from material existence as taught by her husband. She is speaking of a particular conception of Rama nama—not Radha Ramana Rama (Krsna) or Balarama.

Is Hanuman or Lakshman's devotion towards Rama not prema technically?

Swami - December 19, 2008 10:29 pm

Is Hanuman or Lakshman's devotion towards Rama not prema technically?

Technically yes, but as I mentioned Gaudiya acaryas tend to use prema only for Vraja. And after all there is such a huge difference between Vaikuntha prema and Vraja prema that they are really different species. No other smapradaya that I know of refers to prema as the goal. It is mostly if not exclusively a Gaudiya word.

Atmananda Dasa - December 20, 2008 12:49 am

You need to look the verse up and see the context in which it is found. We need more participation here.

 

In Brs. it is mentioned that there is also prema in Vaikuntha. However, Gaudiya acaryas have more or less laid claim to the word prema. After all, even other Vainava sampradayas consider mukti as the goal. "Prema prayojana" corresponds with a "fifth" goal of life beyond the fourth of mukti, and this is exclusive to Mahaprabhu's sampradaya. So for us by an large prema refers only to Goloka.

 

In the verse above Mahadeva's consort has discovered this prema (something she was not acquainted with previously) by the grace of Haridasa Thakura. Previously she only knew of Rama nama and of its power to deliver one from material existence as taught by her husband. She is speaking of a particular conception of Rama nama—not Radha Ramana Rama (Krsna) or Balarama.

So, this means that it is not the mantra that is unique about this particular appearance of Mahaprabhu

but the conception of prema in Vrndavana that is being given in conjunction with the mantra?

Swami - December 20, 2008 12:21 pm

So, this means that it is not the mantra that is unique about this particular appearance of Mahaprabhu

but the conception of prema in Vrndavana that is being given in conjunction with the mantra?

Yes, mayavadis, etc. also chant the maha mantra with a different conception. Conception = sampradaya here.

Swami - December 20, 2008 1:10 pm

Here is the finals section (as posted by Babhru) of the section we have been discussing:

After praising the paramount spiritual practice with the words param vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam, Sri Caitanya delineates seven effects of nama-sankirtana. In the vision of Thakura Bhaktivinoda, these seven effects correspond with the seven sequential steps that follow sraddha and sadhu-sanga and end in prema as delineated by Sri Rupa Gosvami in his Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. Sri Rupa writes:

First faith, then holy association,

followed by the acts of bhajana,

resulting in the cessation of obstacles,

then steadiness, taste, attachment,

ecstasy, and divine love.

This is the order of the stages

through which prema arises in sadhakas.

The first two of these steps, sraddha and sadhu-sanga, have already been discussed. After arousing faith in the method of his divine madness and implying that it is best pursued in the company of sadhus, Sri Caitanya has chosen to enumerate seven particular glories of nama-sankirtana, which correspond with the seven steps remaining to attain Krsna prema. Each of these steps is further described in greater detail in the next seven verses of Siksastakam.

...............................

If there are no further comments or question on this section, let's move on to the next section—from praram vijayate sri krsna sankirtananm to ceto darpana marjanam.

Can you post this section Babhru?

Gaura-Vijaya Das - December 20, 2008 4:26 pm

[quote name='Swami' date='Dec 19 2008, 02:41 PM' post='18307'

In the verse above Mahadeva's consort has discovered this prema (something she was not acquainted with previously) by the grace of Haridasa Thakura. Previously she only knew of Rama nama and of its power to deliver one from material existence as taught by her husband. She is speaking of a particular conception of Rama nama—not Radha Ramana Rama (Krsna) or Balarama.

Mahadeva is again too confusing. In one instance he is said to be speaking about Bhagavata to Parvati when Sukadeva as a parrot was overhearing that conversation. Also he says that Sridhar Swami, Sukadeva and him know the real purport of the Bhagavata though Vyasa may or may not know. He is the main preceptor in the line of visnuswami who is giving the pusti marg so there is awareness about vatsalya. And Nimbarkacarya says that the knowledge the Kumaras got was from Mahadeva. Finally Sanatana Gosvami is just too close to Siva in his life. So it is very strange that Mahadeva only knows about liberation and rama nama and not anything about krsna nama.

Swami - December 20, 2008 5:55 pm

[quote name='Swami' date='Dec 19 2008, 02:41 PM' post='18307'

 

In the verse above Mahadeva's consort has discovered this prema (something she was not acquainted with previously) by the grace of Haridasa Thakura. Previously she only knew of Rama nama and of its power to deliver one from material existence as taught by her husband. She is speaking of a particular conception of Rama nama—not Radha Ramana Rama (Krsna) or Balarama.

Mahadeva is again too confusing. In one instance he is said to be speaking about Bhagavata to Parvati when Sukadeva as a parrot was overhearing that conversation. Also he says that Sridhar Swami, Sukadeva and him know the real purport of the Bhagavata though Vyasa may or may not know. He is the main preceptor in the line of visnuswami who is giving the pusti marg so there is awareness about vatsalya. And Nimbarkacarya says that the knowledge the Kumaras got was from Mahadeva. Finally Sanatana Gosvami is just too close to Siva in his life. So it is very strange that Mahadeva only knows about liberation and rama nama and not anything about krsna nama.

Well all that he knows and teaches at different times is one thing, but in this story only this aspect of Mahadeva's Rama nama conception is addressed. It can be considered even as a conception of Rama nama that gives love or Sankarsna Rama but not Vraja prema

Premanandini - December 20, 2008 11:40 pm

Here is the finals section (as posted by Babhru) of the section we have been discussing:

After praising the paramount spiritual practice with the words param vijayate sri-krsna-sankirtanam, Sri Caitanya delineates seven effects of nama-sankirtana. In the vision of Thakura Bhaktivinoda, these seven effects correspond with the seven sequential steps that follow sraddha and sadhu-sanga and end in prema as delineated by Sri Rupa Gosvami in his Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu. Sri Rupa writes:

 

First faith, then holy association,

followed by the acts of bhajana,

resulting in the cessation of obstacles,

then steadiness, taste, attachment,

ecstasy, and divine love.

This is the order of the stages

through which prema arises in sadhakas.

 

The first two of these steps, sraddha and sadhu-sanga, have already been discussed. After arousing faith in the method of his divine madness and implying that it is best pursued in the company of sadhus, Sri Caitanya has chosen to enumerate seven particular glories of nama-sankirtana, which correspond with the seven steps remaining to attain Krsna prema. Each of these steps is further described in greater detail in the next seven verses of Siksastakam.

 

...............................

 

If there are no further comments or question on this section, let's move on to the next section—from praram vijayate sri krsna sankirtananm to ceto darpana marjanam.

 

Can you post this section Babhru?

i find it interesting that there is first ecstasy and then divine love - i never heard exactly these translations before - is this because ecstasy has still some enjoying spirit - still some sense of sense - whereas divinve love is finally fully selfless - selforgetful?

Premanandini - December 20, 2008 11:41 pm

i find it interesting that there is first ecstasy and then divine love - i never heard exactly these translations before - is this because ecstasy has still some enjoying spirit - still some sense of sense - whereas divinve love is finally fully selfless - selforgetful?

should mean: sense of self (not sense of sense...)

Swami - December 21, 2008 2:36 pm

should mean: sense of self (not sense of sense...)

Bhava (ecstasy) precedes love (prema). Bhava is a ray of the sun of prema. First the dawning of the rays of the sun then full sun. Something like that.

Swami - December 28, 2008 9:30 pm

Can you post this section Babhru?

Babhru???

Babhru Das - December 29, 2008 12:04 pm

(Sorry--I seem to have dozed off. I think I stripped all the diacritic marks out, but please let me know if I've missed any.)

Ceto-darpana-marjanam

Cetah is a Sanskrit word that eludes English translation. It is often rendered as heart, mind, or consciousness. It derives from the verbal root cit, which means to know or to become aware. Thus it refers to that internal faculty by which one becomes conscious of oneself. Here Gaura Raya compares this faculty to a mirror, the mirror of awareness. A mirror has no image of its own but reflects whatever image comes before it. If the mirror of our awareness is affected by material desire, it will project a material image or sense of identity. Sriman Mahaprabhu has compared such desire and the subsequent image it projects to dust covering the mirror of our awareness.

The jiva soul exists, it can be aware of its existence, and it exists for a purpose. The purpose of the jiva is to serve and thus love. When its existence is identified with matter (misra-sattva), its lack of awareness of its true self gives rise to a material identity (ahankara), and consequently its purpose remains unfulfilled by serving desires born of material identification (kama). This dust of material motivation can be wiped away, leaving the mirror of our awareness clean.

Cleansing the mirror of our consciousness is the goal of niskama-karma-yoga, the yoga of selfless action. By realizing this goal, the jiva is no longer identified with matter (suddha-sattva), it attains knowledge of the self as consciousness (brahma-jnana), and its purpose is partially fulfilled yet suspended in the joy of identifying with Brahman (brahmananda). However, cleansing the heart is only the initial effect of nama-sankirtana, not the end result. Furthermore, nama-sankirtana cleanses the mirror of our awareness in a way that involves using our head (su-medhasa) to soften our heart. It does so by placing the mirror of our awareness before Krsna nama, the perfect object of love. This results not only in cleansing the mirror of our awareness from the dust of material desire and identification but further in positioning us to experience a pure state of existence (visuddha-sattva), to become aware of our spiritual identity (samvit), and to fulfill our purpose in love (hladini).

As we shall see in the discussion of the second stanza of Siksastakam, association with Krsna nama entails coming under the influence of Krsna’s svarupa-sakti, for Krsna nama is filled with his sakti. It is only in this condition that the jiva can realize its full potential. The first step in this direction is sraddha, followed by sadhu-sanga. After taking shelter of one’s guru in the context of sadhu-sanga, one receives directives from the guru (bhajana-kriya) that set this cleansing process (anartha-nivrtti) in motion. The stages of bhajana-kriya and anartha-nivrtti correspond with the initial effect of nama-sankirtana and are discussed further in verse two. Therein the stage of sadhu-sanga, which was implied in verse one, is also further indicated.

Bhrigu - December 29, 2008 3:13 pm

To me, the ceto-darpana-marjanam part is always ecstatic and humbling at the same time. The very first effect of Krishna's Name is that it cleanses the heart -- the goal of so many yogic practices, meditations and terrible penances! But I haven't attained even that stage...

Atmananda Dasa - January 3, 2009 9:39 pm

Ceto-darpana-marjanam

Cleansing the mirror of our consciousness is the goal of niskama-karma-yoga, the yoga of selfless action. By realizing this goal, the jiva is no longer identified with matter (suddha-sattva), it attains knowledge of the self as consciousness (brahma-jnana), and its purpose is partially fulfilled yet suspended in the joy of identifying with Brahman (brahmananda). However, cleansing the heart is only the initial effect of nama-sankirtana, not the end result. Furthermore, nama-sankirtana cleanses the mirror of our awareness in a way that involves using our head (su-medhasa) to soften our heart. It does so by placing the mirror of our awareness before Krsna nama, the perfect object of love. This results not only in cleansing the mirror of our awareness from the dust of material desire and identification but further in positioning us to experience a pure state of existence (visuddha-sattva), to become aware of our spiritual identity (samvit), and to fulfill our purpose in love (hladini).

The cleansing of the mirror of the mind takes one beyond (brahmananda)? This means that anartha nivrrti takes one beyond the hightest reaches of jnana-yoga? That's not a small thing at all!

Guru-nistha Das - January 4, 2009 3:42 am

The first paragraph made me think of how we are tatastha-shakti and how our existence is always contextual. If I've understood correctly, tatastha-shakti alone is nothing. Guru Maharaja writes, "A mirror has no image of its own but reflects whatever image comes before it".

This naturally makes one think of the undeniable need for a sadhu in one's life, and by staying close to him/her one reflects his/her character, motivation and aspiration, and thus by association becomes similar.

Another point that came to my mind from the last paragraph was that even the cleansing of the mind can't take place by just following the "process" of bhakti without taking shelter of a guru. Certain typeof seekers think they can actually go further in their practice and stay more flexible by not committing to a teaher, but Bhaktivinada Thakur's insight on the Siksastakam shows the folly of that kind of thinking. Anartha-nivritti is preceded by sadhu-sanga.

One thing I don't understsand though. If Anartha-nivritti is equal to the goal of niskama-karma yoga, how is it possible that the devotee at anartha-nivritti/nistha still feels the pull of the mind and the senses but by his purified intelligence is able to resist it? According to the little understanding I have about niskama-karma yoga, a perfected yogi doesn't feel that pull anymore.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - January 4, 2009 7:26 pm

The first paragraph made me think of how we are tatastha-shakti and how our existence is always contextual. If I've understood correctly, tatastha-shakti alone is nothing. Guru Maharaja writes, "A mirror has no image of its own but reflects whatever image comes before it".

This naturally makes one think of the undeniable need for a sadhu in one's life, and by staying close to him/her one reflects his/her character, motivation and aspiration, and thus by association becomes similar.

 

Another point that came to my mind from the last paragraph was that even the cleansing of the mind can't take place by just following the "process" of bhakti without taking shelter of a guru. Certain typeof seekers think they can actually go further in their practice and stay more flexible by not committing to a teaher, but Bhaktivinada Thakur's insight on the Siksastakam shows the folly of that kind of thinking. Anartha-nivritti is preceded by sadhu-sanga.

 

One thing I don't understsand though. If Anartha-nivritti is equal to the goal of niskama-karma yoga, how is it possible that the devotee at anartha-nivritti/nistha still feels the pull of the mind and the senses but by his purified intelligence is able to resist it? According to the little understanding I have about niskama-karma yoga, a perfected yogi doesn't feel that pull anymore.

Actually even yogis and jnanis have been inspired by a teacher to a large extent. For instance you can see that all of Plato's writings have a stamp of Socrates: he is steeped in reverence of his master.

Guru-nistha Das - January 7, 2009 3:32 am

Actually even yogis and jnanis have been inspired by a teacher to a large extent. For instance you can see that all of Plato's writings have a stamp of Socrates: he is steeped in reverence of his master.

Oh I wasn't talking about yogis and jnanis in particular when referring to seekers who won't commit to gurus. I was thinking more of New Agers and such.

Swami - January 7, 2009 1:44 pm

Ceto-darpana-marjanam

The cleansing of the mirror of the mind takes one beyond (brahmananda)? This means that anartha nivrrti takes one beyond the hightest reaches of jnana-yoga? That's not a small thing at all!

Not beyond brahmananda but up to brahmananda. But I think this is using anartha nivritti in a broad sense, which I have not done in the commentary. As Bhaktisiddhnata Saraswati Thakura used to say our ideal does not end in anartha nivritti but in artha pravritti. In saying this he is contrasting jnana marg with bhakti marg. In other words, jnana marg aimed at brahma jnana is a negative theology. It involves removing the negative effects of karma, cleansing the heart.

However, at a closer look within the bhakti marg we find that anartha nivritti is the stage in which the principle anarthas are removed and anarthas coming from good and bad karma in particular, but liberation is not achieved until the completion of asakti. Therefore in the section of the commentary we are discussing I wrote, "After taking shelter of one’s guru in the context of sadhu-sanga, one receives directives from the guru (bhajana-kriya) that set this cleansing process (anartha-nivrtti) in motion." It is not that anartha nivritti as a stage within Mahaprabhu's path is synonomous with brahman realiation. Nontheless, it is no small thing.

I have written in chapter three:

"The venerable Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura explains in his Madhurya-Kadambini that the destruction of anarthas arising from good and bad karma is complete (purna) at the stage of nistha. However, Sri Visvanatha’s term purna does not imply that anarthas are absolutely eradicated at nistha. As Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura explains and Srimad-Bhagavatam confirms, in this stage trace elements of these anarthas still remain, nasta-prayesu abhadresu. Although the fire of material existence is practically extinguished (bhava-maha-davagni-nirvapanam), the smoke has not entirely cleared. It will linger until one attains the stage of asakti, at which time anarthas arising from one’s karma are absolutely destroyed (atyantiki) and liberation from material existence is complete."

Atmananda Dasa - January 7, 2009 6:10 pm

Thank you for your reply Swami.

I guess Gurunishta's question I'll have to do some reading about this subject.

Yamuna Dasi - February 17, 2009 1:36 am

Many important prayers are written in the astakam form: Gurvastakam, Namastakam, Damodarastakam and others. It seems that this is common way of gloryfying someone/something in Sanskrit poetry but why... I have no idea... Perhaps it has something to do with number 8 that is considered auspicious.

Indeed so many times we meet 8 in the Scriptures and in spirituality in general - the 8 main manjaris, Krishna is the 8th child of Vasudeva and Devaki, the 8-fold path of yoga in Patandjali's Yoga Sutras, the 8-fold path of Buddha... Does somebody know why 8 is so special as a number? Does it have to do with eternity (if rotated to 90 degrees it's the sign of eternity) or maybe with duality (everything goes around two circles - Radha-Krishna and everything just goes around them in an eternal double-circular flow)?

Yamuna Dasi - February 17, 2009 1:43 am

purva asata sloka kari' loke siksa dila

sei asta-slokers artha apane asvadila

 

"Previously he composed these eight slokas and thus instructed people, and now (in the lila being narrated) he tasted their meaning himself."

 

prabhura "siksastaka" sloka yei pade, sune

krsne prema-hakti tara bade dine-dine

 

"If anyone recites or hears these 'siksastaka' verses, his or her love and devotion for Krsna increases day by day."

Can someone pls give from where these verses are?

Sorry, I'm truing to "catch the train".

Gandiva Dasi - February 17, 2009 10:45 am

C.C. Antya-lila 20.64 and 20.65

Swami - February 17, 2009 11:42 am

so bhava maha davagani nirvapanam. Babhru, please post the next section.

Babhru Das - February 18, 2009 4:21 pm

The second effect of nama-sankirtana is deliverance from the great fire of material existence, bhava-maha-davagni-nirvapanam. The metaphor of a forest fire is often employed to help us understand the nature of material existence. Just as a forest fire often has no external cause but ignites on its own by the friction of two trees, similarly the responsibility for the conflagration of material existence rests with the desires of its inhabitants. God is not to blame. Karma is the stern hand of nature that responds in kind to any and all forms of exploitation. Nature is not to be exploited by the mind’s idea of what her purpose is. She belongs to God.

While a forest fire often starts on its own, it does not stop on its own. Moreover, human efforts to extinguish a forest fire often prove futile, leaving firefighters praying for rain. Similarly, although God is not responsible for the suffering of material existence, only he can bring an end to it. Atonement and the culture of self-knowledge are compared to human efforts to extinguish a forest fire. They are insufficient. Atonement fails to extinguish the fire of desire, and the culture of knowledge attempts to extinguish desire in a way that leaves no room for new growth, no possibility of spiritual desire.

Where human effort falls short, only God can make up the difference. Nama-sankirtana descends from God. Narottama dasa Thakura writes, golokera prema-dhana, hari-nama-sankirtana: “Harinama sankirtanam is Goloka’s charity of love.” In order that the gift of Goloka’s love may be embraced, nama-sankirtana first extinguishes the forest fire of material existence. When by the grace of Krsna nama the fire of material desire is extinguished, one’s sadhana becomes nistha, fixed, even as the smoke of such desire lingers. With two feet still in this world, the sadhaka’s eyes are fixed on a vision of Goloka. At this stage one’s spiritual practice is both outwardly unflinching and illumined within. The spirit of the sadhaka’s practice in this stage is discussed in the third stanza of Siksastakam.

Atmananda Dasa - February 18, 2009 6:40 pm

Here are some quotes from the purport to stanza 3 that I thought might be relevant to the discussion here:

"As the sadhaka leaves the small world of hte mind and its misery, he or she experiences the first characteristics of suddha-bhakti: freedom from suffering (klesaghni). Suffering is a result of karma, and it is experienced in the mind. What is happy for one is sad for another. One creature's funeral is another's festival. Beyond the relativity of the mind's perception of good and bad, happy and sad, is the realm of consciousness. in nishta bhajana-kriya, Krsna nama removes the mental blindfold and shaded glasses of ignorance (tamas) and passion (rajas) that have obscured the fact that we are of the nature of consciousness, not matter. In this stage one sees clearly (sattva), one's priorities are properly in place, and one is no longer deluded or distacted by false values, for knowing is the nature of sattva." page 50-51

"We must pay close attention to God and guru, to the book bhagavata and person bhagavata -- nityam bhagavata-sevaya -- if we expect them to share their secrets with us. Nishta involves the kind of attentive chanting that brings the world to life. As one's heart changes in nama-dharma with the ongoing culture of humility and tolerance, one's surrounding environment that previously appeared to oppose one is perceived for what it really is -- friendly. As the sadhaka realizes that he or she is surrounded by well wishers, a sense of hope illumines the practicioner's heart." page 50

Babhru Das - February 19, 2009 1:19 am

One striking thing about this section is the often futile nature of human endeavor in the pursuit of liberation (especially the kind of liberation afforded by Sri Krishna sankirtan). The full solution to the problem of forest fire is a good rain. We do what we can to contain the fire here and there, such as prayascitta and culture of jnana, but they're no more reliable than firebreaks or backfires in the forest. They may seem to ameliorate the situation, maybe make us feel better about trying, but they cannot put the fire out. So we need help from above, a good soaking rain of mercy.

Atmananda Dasa - February 19, 2009 5:00 am

BG7.14

This divine energy of mine consisting of the gunas is certainly difficult to go beyond. Those who take refuge in me alone transcend this illusion.

Babhru Das - March 21, 2009 1:51 pm

"We must pay close attention to God and guru, to the book bhagavata and person bhagavata -- nityam bhagavata-sevaya -- if we expect them to share their secrets with us. Nishta involves the kind of attentive chanting that brings the world to life. As one's heart changes in nama-dharma with the ongoing culture of humility and tolerance, one's surrounding environment that previously appeared to oppose one is perceived for what it really is -- friendly. As the sadhaka realizes that he or she is surrounded by well wishers, a sense of hope illumines the practicioner's heart." page 50

At the risk of shifting attention from big social issues, I'd like to thank Atmananda for bringing these quotations from the third verse's commentary to our attention. I particularly like this quotation, including the way it's constructed. Dedication to bhajana actually changes the way we perceive everything in such a way that hope dawns in our hearts.

Babhru Das - March 22, 2009 3:05 pm

Where human effort falls short, only God can make up the difference. Nama-sankirtana descends from God. Narottama dasa Thakura writes, golokera prema-dhana, hari-nama-sankirtana: “Harinama sankirtanam is Goloka’s charity of love.”

I like the sense this gives that the holy name isn't something we can perform; rather, he comes to us in his own good time. I suppose we may say that we can chant nama-aparadha and nama-abhasa, but suddha nama reveals himself to us.

If there's no further discussion of this section, should I post the next?

Babhru Das - March 23, 2009 2:30 pm

Bump. Does anyone have more to discuss with regard to this section, or should I post the next? A sus ordenes.

Bhrigu - March 23, 2009 3:05 pm

I think we should proceed.

Babhru Das - March 23, 2009 4:55 pm

The phrase sreyo-kairava-candrika-vitaranam speaks of ruci bhakti. This is the sixth stage mentioned in Rupa Gosvami’s verse detailing the sadhaka’s development from sraddha to prema. Sri Krishna Caitanya describes it here as the third effect of nama-sankirtana. This effect—the stage of ruci—will be elaborated on in the fourth verse of Sikshashtakam.

The word sreyah speaks of something auspicious and beautiful. Krishna nama is that which is most auspicious among all that is auspicious, including other names of God. Gaura Krishna has given the world nama-sreshtham, the most auspicious and splendidly beautiful conception of the holy name. In this connection Thakura Bhaktivinoda cites the well-known stanza of Skanda Purana glorifying the holy name of Krishna, madhura-madhuram-etan mangalam mangalanam: “Sweetest of the sweet, most auspicious among that which is auspicious.”

When the burning effect of the fire of material existence is extinguished by nama-sankirtanam, Krishna nama begins to benedict his disciple with the cooling moonlike rays of his splendor. These splendorous rays are the svarupa-sakti emanating from Krishna nama. Here the sadhaka’s heart is compared to the white night-blooming lotus, kumuda. At the stage of ruci, the sadhaka’s heart is pure like a white lotus, uncolored by the passion of the world. For this reason Mahaprabhu has chosen the metaphor of a white kumuda rather than a red one. In ruci bhakti, the heart, previously contracted in the shadow created by lust, begins to bloom in love like the white lotus in contact with the rays of the moon.

The moon’s light is reflected light, and here it represents a semblance of actual bhava. In ruci bhakti one is still a sadhaka, and the ray of the sun of prema that is bhava has not yet dawned in the heart; however, one experiences a semblance of bhava and an uninterrupted taste for chanting and other devotional practices. Ruci bhaktas have no material attachment, yet they are attached to the means to attain prema. Their sraddha/saranagati are mature, and they have thus erected within their hearts the stage on which the drama of Krishna lila will soon be performed.

Braja-sundari Dasi - March 24, 2009 11:55 pm

I only worry that translating whole Sanskrit dictionary in another Classroom thread will make us all unaware that anything is going on here

Babhru Das - March 27, 2009 1:37 pm

I was just appreciating the contrast between the images in this section and the previous section--between the searing heat of material existence and the soothing coolness offered by Sri Krishna sankirtana. I don't have a fully formed response at the moment, but perhaps the seed of one.

Braja-sundari Dasi - March 31, 2009 12:56 pm

Attaining ruci bhakti is a very high accomplishment. It seems logical that on lower levels of devotion we need to make much more effort ourselves to invoke Krsna`s mercy. But on the other hand- how to make real effort without ruci?

Prahlad Das - March 31, 2009 7:33 pm

Association with sadhus who have ruci seems to be the only way.