Tattva-viveka
dismantling of myth by modern intellectual Indian movement
Gaura-Vijaya Das - November 9, 2008 11:53 pm
How the diversity in the version of each myth being told leads to dismantling by a rationalist. There is no doubt that divine faith is a gift from the devotee which confidence in intellect cannot achieve. Here analyzing the Ramayan and different versions of it and the discrepancies in those this, Indian scholar questions the validity of any existence of any existence of Rama. GM has tried to address this issues well. What do devotees think of his arguments of completely different ramayans and his giving a casteist twist to the whole thing?
Paula Richman wrote a book titled “Many Ramayanas" Yes the question before us is to accept which Ramayana as true story?. Who could be the arbiter? Should anyone take the matter to International Court of Justice because it involves Ramayanas originating from different cultures and countries? Individuals cannot go to International Court of Justice. Some nation must take the matter to court, to prove its version of Ramayana as true history. Till the matter is decided, no question of resolving Ram"s birth place and Ram"s Bridge could be resolved or settled. First and foremost to be decided is which of the Ramayanas is true history?
Laos Ramayana: Buddha recited the story of Rama to his disciples, in Laos; they believe that the jataka tale to be tale of Buddha"s previous birth. There are two popular versions of Ramayana namely Phra Lak Phra Lam and Gvay Dvorahbi. According to these Ramayanas, Ravana is the nephew of King Dasarath. Rama while roaming in desert in search of Sita eats a fruit and becomes a monkey. [The biblical Adam and Eve"s story and its resemblance could also be taken note of] After becoming monkey Rama meets Nengsi, a woman turned into monkey and marries her. Hanuman is their son. After killing Ravana, Ram marries his widow.
Thai Ramayana: The earliest version of Ramakien dates back to 13 th century and Thais believe their version to be the original story. In Ramakien many places in Thailand have been identified with Ramayana episodes. The city of Ayutthaya i.e. Ayodhya has been mentioned as capital of the kingdom. Ramakien vividly describes the marriage of Hanuman. According to Thais, Hanuman had many affairs and children.
Jain Ramayana: According to historian D.N.Jha in Jain Ramayana it is Luxman who kills Ravana. Neither Ram, Luxman nor Hanuman is monogamous. Luxman has 16,000 wives while half that number Ram has, says D.N.Jha. “In Buddhist Ramayana Rama and Sita are siblings who later got married while in Jain Ramayana Rama has 8000 wives. Historian D.N.Jha links the monogamous Rama to the patriarchal society, a symptom of which is also Sita"s agnipariksha."
Cambodian Ramayana: Cambodian version “The Reamkher" states Ram as incarnation of Vishnu. Akaingameso which means God"s doorkeeper was reborn as Ravana. Sita, in her earlier birth was the wife of Indra, who was insulted by Ravana. To avenge the wrong she was born as Ravana"s daughter. Ravana was cautioned by his astrologer and brother Bibhek about his daughter"s evil birth. Ravana put her in a chest and buried her. King Janaka later discovered her. The Reamkher follows Valmiki episodes on Ram"s friendship with monkey chiefs and construction of the bridge. There is one important deviation. Sita gave birth to a son named Ramalaksha parented by Valmiki.One day she went to the river for a bath with her son when the sage was in deep meditation. After meditation Vamiki could not see his son, hence created another son by his yogic power and named him Jupalaksha.
These are some of the versions. BJP and VHP must first of all find out whether Sita is the wife of Valmiki ? They must find out whether Rama had 8000 wives, Lakshman had 16000 wives or Dasarathan had 60000 wives. The Ravana and Sita being father and daughter and the Rama and Sita being brother and sister, are existing stories in various cultures. We did not write these Ramayanas, and all Ramayanas are written by pious people and not atheists like me.
The Dravidian Movement took up cudgels against the Kamban"s version of Ramayana and the journal Kudi Arasu edited by Thanthai E.V.Ramasamy Periyar published series of articles by Chandrasekara Paavalar. Aringnar Anna challenged Tamil scholars to come for open one to one debate on the purpose of Kambaramayanam and its imposition on Tamils to subjugate them under Aryan Illusion.
Navalar Somasundara Bharathiar and Chollin Chelvar R.P.Sethu Pillai debated with Anna and openly admitted they have lost the debate. This debate in Tamil Book “Let Fire Spread" wants to illuminate Tamil hearts by symbolically burning Kamba ramayanam. Pulavar Kuzhanthai wrote Ravana Kavyam can be considered as Dravidian version of Ramayanam.
The question before us which of these versions is based on true historical facts. These are not days where everyone will accept anything with blind faith. If you place new facts to reopen a settled issue in history, you should place facts and prove it. Blind faith of BJP and VHP will not stand the scrutiny of the Age of Science.
Chinese had some truth to add to world"s history, yes they wanted to tell the world that their sons only discovered America and not Columbus. Gavin Menzies wrote a book: 1421 : The Year China Discovered America. The book states about the 7 expeditions by Admiral Zheng He between 1405 and 1423 with a fleet of 317 ships and 28,000 men. Chinese Government organized exhibitions, and the postal authorities of Hong Kong, Macao, Singapore, Malaysia and Thailand issued postage stamps commemorating Zhen He"s discovery. At a cost of 50 million dollars a Museum is being set up. If BJP and VHP had truth in their arsenal let them use it first. Lungpower alone will not establish truth. When they ruled India, BJP combine tried its best to use all money at its command to prove many falsehoods; ultimately they failed in all such adventures.
How Fast Do Monkeys Fly?
In October 2004, a lecture by Berkeley Professor R.P.Goldman titled “How fast do monkeys fly? How long do demons sleep" which took place in New Delhi is reported in the Times of India [Mumbai edition] dated Saturday October 30 2004. According to Dr.R.P.Goldman “ancient Sanskrit scholars who made intense study of Hindu mythological texts like Ramayana tried to rationalize several of the seemingly improbable tales like Ravana"s ten heads, or how fast Hanuman the monkey god could have flown to get the sanjivini or elixir, for Laksman or even how long Kumbakarna, Ravana"s brother, might have slept."
In order to apply the rationalist paint to the absurd story of Ravana having 10 heads, since none of the findings about extinct species have found a single 10 headed human fossil, they said that Ravana actually had one head and the other 9 were reflection on the large 9 polished gems that he wore around his neck. The success of rationalist movement compels scholars to spin new tales to justify foolish tales.
Another important question that these scholars raised was how long could Hanuman have taken to fly to the Himalayas to the Mahodaya Mountain to fetch the life giving herb for Laksmanan from Lanka, where the battle was raging? Goldman says that some of the scholars calculated that roughly at a speed of 660 kilometers per hour Hanuman flew, plucked the mountain, and flew back to Lanka. Then “Hanuman was quite ecologically conscious" the Professor R.P.Goldman states in order to save ecology Hanuman flew again back to Himalayas and pasted the plucked mountain with an adhesive still not found by scientists.
This is the scholarly research which BJP and VHP want us to accept. Can anyone with brain assimilate this research as proven scientifically and established beyond an iota of doubt? No one will swallow this foolish finding. Dravida Peravai wants BJP and VHP to prove all these impossible feats first before staking claim to Rama"s Bridge in Gulf of Mannar.
Rama"s Bridge
So far historians have found evidences that first human on Earth dates back to 60,000 years. Journey of Man by Spencer Wells which was also telecasted in National Geographic Channel claims that first human beings were from Africa. The book also claims that all humans are one; there exists a common gene named Sangene in all human beings. While writing about this book in my article titled Black Race and Brahma"s Face, I had written that these findings which prove human race is one is a severe indictment of a race that claims superiority among others and one which never accepts all humans as equals, thus people who claim to have born from Brahma"s face who built castles of lies in the name of varunasharadharma, have been proven to be totally unscientific and idiots claiming superiority on earth at the cost of fellow human beings,
The reason to state this is because in www.virtuallibrary.com of Srilanka claims:
“NASA Images Find 1,750,000 Year Old Man Made Bridge between India and Srilanka"
Under this title the Aryan lobby writes “In the 18 th incarnation of Lord Krishna, the Lord appeared as King Rama. In order to perform some pleasing work for the demigods, he exhibited superhuman powers by controlling the Indian Ocean and the killing of the atheist King Ravana, who was on the other side of the Sea"…. Srimad Bhagawatham, the site claims.
Let us examine the falsehoods one by one. We from the Dravidian Movement are atheists but not Ravana; all know that Ravana as per epics is a devotee of Lord Siva. The doubt which arises to me is why should a reincarnation of God perform superhuman deeds to impress demigods? Does it mean that Demigods are more powerful than the Original God on reincarnation?
How does God control Indian Ocean?
UNESCO had constituted an Intergovernmental Oceanographic Commission to undertake research of the Indian Ocean. This commission had not found yet anything that Gods did in Indian Ocean as per Srimad Bhagawatham. Well Dravida Peravai urges the Indian Government to refer the matter of Rama"s Bridge to this Intergovernmental Commission and if this commission says that there is no Rama"s bridge, will all BJP and VHP followers give up their religion and become atheists. Graham Hancock had written a book titles Underworld: The Mysterious Origins of Civilization.
In 1981 Daniel Behrman had written a book Assault on the Unknown. There are many books on Indian Ocean. All these books give us evidences on the continental drift, the submerged lands of the Lemuria, which Tamils prefer to call as the Kumari Kandam. The challenge posed by BJP and VHP must be accepted and we must use the National Institute of Oceanography to indulge in the study of under water archaeology to bring to light the great past of the Tamils. Tamil literature says 49 countries were lost to the seas, including River Kumari and River Pahruli. If Ramayana, an epic says Rama constructed a bridge and if that has to be probed, we Tamils demand that what all Tamil literature says about First and Second Tamil Sangams and the land loss to Tamil homeland namely Kumarikandam also should be studied.
In 2004 Dinamani Tamil Daily reported that in Bangalore a scientist Graham Cook displayed finds from the under water exploration he made near off the coast of Poompuhar, the Chozha Port and displayed video scenes of submerged Poompuhar and bdisplayed out 2000 artifacts from the Sea. Using carbon dating and other scientifically proven methodology in archaeology he said that the Poompuhar Civilization dates back to 7500 B.C. Tamils must be proud to have scientific evidence that pushes its civilization to an earlier period compared to Indus Valley Civilization. Instead of repeating like parrots that we have 2000 years of history, Tamil scholars must claim that we have a civilization which is 10,000 years old.
Swami - November 10, 2008 12:33 am
Jaya Rama!
What about dismantling the Indian Intellectual Movement?
Gaura-Vijaya Das - November 10, 2008 8:38 pm
Jaya Rama!
What about dismantling the Indian Intellectual Movement?
Yes it should be dismantled for its very shallow understanding which comes through intellect which is not pure and influenced more by passion and arrogance rather than sincere inquiry.
Thank you GM for saving so many people from the intellectual slight of Dawkins and Hitchens!
Syamasundara - November 11, 2008 4:41 am
How totally off the point. Poor guys.
But in an indirect way, "articles" such as these give glory to bhakti; in our eyes at least.
Swami - November 11, 2008 5:15 pm
Thank you GM for saving so many people from the intellectual slight of Dawkins and Hitchens!
Their's is not an intellectual revolution. It is a moral revolution. Take for example the recent atheist city bus advertising campaign in London. Dawkins donated $9,000 to it, and the first side-of-the-bus-add read, "There is probably no god, so have fun." In reality there is an overarching "good" that we should all strive to conform to that leads to real happiness, as opposed to the misery of pursuing the so not so well thought out "freedom" of our conventional sense of individuality.
Bijaya Kumara Das - November 12, 2008 8:23 am
This should be real easy to do with all the evidence coming forward. Last night on coast to coast am Brent Miller of the Horizon Project discussed evidence for sudden catastrophic earth changes. He mentioned a filming of a gap taking place in the ocean that took only 20 minutes yet science of today says these things happen over millions of years. It was an interesting subject. He also mentioned ( if I recalled correctly) 6400 square miles of tropical rain forest under the ocean still intact and preserved form the previous magnetic shifting as well as the evidence in the Nevada desert of coral reefs at 6000 feet and along the coast of Alaska at 600 feet sea fossils from a sunami. He claims that advanced civilizations get plunged into the dark ages and the lost history takes for ever to be rediscovered.
The Horizon Project uses an unprecedented approach to deciphering the answers behind life's most puzzling questions; breaking through the flawed explanations of fragmented modern theory that compound each year to further mask the truth. See the overwhelming scientific evidence previously lost and re-discover the shocking answers that have been under our noses all along.
No matter your belief system or your professional background; The Horizon Project will change the way you look at everything!
Episode 01 of The Horizon Project begins with a frightening bang. Newly discovered scientific evidence shows that the world as we know it is about to come to an unexpected end; however, knowing what's coming over the horizon is only the tip of the iceberg; understanding WHY presents a picture far greater than you could have imagined.
Global catastrophic events throughout our past have severed the flow of information from one generation to the next, creating permanent gaps in history and knowledge. Civilizations that came before us knew of the upcoming inevitable catastrophe, leaving behind major clues that have just been recently discovered. The knowledge that was once lost is the missing link that provides a clear understanding of how our world truly operates. Ironically, these clues also inform us that time is running out; sooner than you may believe.
Understand what is about to happen but more importantly HOW and WHY. In Episode 01, The Horizon Project Research Team will identify some of the signs that are scattered all over our planet and reveal a shocking truth!
Robertnewman - November 12, 2008 3:06 pm
The tone of The Horizon Project suggests that it's one of the fringe phenomena that come and go without making a significant impact on the prevailing world view. But even if evidence turned up that could shatter existing theories, they would just be replaced with other theories. The fundamental basis of science, that sense experience and inference are the only valid sources of knowledge, would not be shaken by any volume of sense data. Scientific faith cannot be undermined that way.
Babhru Das - November 12, 2008 3:34 pm
The tone of The Horizon Project suggests that it's one of the fringe phenomena that come and go without making a significant impact on the prevailing world view. But even if evidence turned up that could shatter existing theories, they would just be replaced with other theories. The fundamental basis of science, that sense experience and inference are the only valid sources of knowledge, would not be shaken by any volume of sense data. Scientific faith cannot be undermined that way.
I'm finding it hard to stop chuckling about your last point, Robert. I think it's so well put, in all its irony. I would amend your appositive phrase a little, though. This sense of "science" is often referred to (though not by its own acolytes, of course) as scientism, and it is simply positivism or empiricism: faith that anything worth knowing can only be known via sense experience and inference. Some scientists will concede that some things may be known otherwise, but they'll be quick to point out that they're not particularly useful things. (Read: not useful for exploiting the resources of physical nature.)
I'm still chuckling.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - November 12, 2008 7:54 pm
I'm still chuckling.
Also only inference which is validated by sense perception. But positivism as a philosophy is dead although Popper set up tone for weak positivism where only things which can be falsified are accepted as science and other thing don't come under the purview of science.
Robertnewman - November 12, 2008 8:57 pm
Popper's test is an excellent way to exclude spiritual phenomena from science. By definition, subjective experience is unfalsifiable.
Swami - November 13, 2008 1:44 am
Popper's test is an excellent way to exclude spiritual phenomena from science. By definition, subjective experience is unfalsifiable.
"Darwinism is not a testable scientific theory, but a metaphysical research program."
—Karl Popper
Gaura-Vijaya Das - November 13, 2008 10:03 pm
"Darwinism is not a testable scientific theory, but a metaphysical research program."—Karl Popper
Darwinism can be called a subjective interpretation of data.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - July 18, 2009 7:13 pm
"Darwinism is not a testable scientific theory, but a metaphysical research program."—Karl Popper
Here this argument is kind of refuted.
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA211_1.html
"When speaking here of Darwinism, I shall speak always of today's theory - that is Darwin's own theory of natural selection supported by the Mendelian theory of heredity, by the theory of the mutation and recombination of genes in a gene pool, and by the decoded genetic code. This is an immensely impressive and powerful theory. The claim that it completely explains evolution is of course a bold claim, and very far from being established. All scientific theories are conjectures, even those that have successfully passed many severe and varied tests. The Mendelian underpinning of modern Darwinism has been well tested, and so has the theory of evolution which says that all terrestrial life has evolved from a few primitive unicellular organisms, possibly even from one single organism."
I was reading this website in order to see what the hard-core evolutionists say against any challenges to their theory. Mostly their refutations insist on naturalistic explanations saying that we always have the God in gaps theory. When we can't explain something, we owe it to God and those areas keep on shrinking one by one. And also if we say that there is intelligence behind an intelligent object, then we can as well say that there must be intelligence behind that intelligence and so on. In sum, they are submerged in a naturalistic framework of explaining phenomenon and science is capable of investigating such explanations. So I think then the attacks have to be on the limitations of philosophy of science and its bias, rather than science itself. Science is wedded to a naturalistic worldview and we cannot expect to prove things like intelligent design through science. They always cite the argument above in bold to dismiss any intelligence behind a phenomenon and I find it irritating. That is why it is good to keep on attacking foundations and assumptions of science rather than try to explain a supernatural paradigm like S.B completely within a naturalistic framework of science. Most people just want to get exact empirical verification of quantities in S.B and that is the wordt way to go about it, according to me.
Prahlad Das - July 19, 2009 1:16 am
That is why it is good to keep on attacking foundations and assumptions of science rather than try to explain a supernatural paradigm like S.B completely within a naturalistic framework of science. Most people just want to get exact empirical verification of quantities in S.B and that is the wordt way to go about it, according to me.
Agreed. There are many references in the Bhagavatam and other Vedas which are conflicting within themselves and without. Taking the Christian Creationism theory as an example, we can learn that solely literal interpretations can become a quagmire of inexplicable ideology. However, unlike the Biblical understanding, there is given room for figurative or metaphorical reasoning.
At some point, every faith based system will either HAVE to agree to a figurative posture or lose itself to general ridicule. Perhaps the strongest argument for Vedanta within the argument of Intelligent design are its built in figurative disclaimers.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - July 19, 2009 3:58 am
In the same website, the person is trying to prove that science is not wedded to the naturalist viewpoint, though there are people like dawkins who are.