Tattva-viveka
Why does the jiva forget her previous lives?
Yamuna Dasi - March 1, 2009 10:35 pm
Many times people put this question. I have my way of detailed explanations which sound reasonable and are very well accepted. But I have to admit that my explanations are just a feeling of mine and an indirect conclusion, not based on scriptural evidence.
So may I ask the devotees here what is the answer to this question "Why does the jiva forget her previous lives?" and if possible with scriptural evidences?
And as a sub-question - why do some jivas have memories from previous lives?
Yamuna Dasi - March 1, 2009 11:11 pm
One more addition:
If the idea of circulating in samsara is to finally get the right conclusion to leave it, how does then jiva's previous experience serve this purpose if the jiva's memory gets deleted at the end of each lifetime?
Prahlad Das - March 2, 2009 2:40 am
One more addition:If the idea of circulating in samsara is to finally get the right conclusion to leave it, how does then jiva's previous experience serve this purpose if the jiva's memory gets deleted at the end of each lifetime?
I'm not sure the idea of circulating in samsara is to finally get the right conclusion to leave it. The two are unrelated in this respect. Circulation in samsara is a product of maintaining one's illusion. Samsara is just that, a ceaseless cycle. One deed begets another and so on. The jiva's previous experiences in illusion serve to enhance the jiva's next life in the direction of their pursuit. As Sri Krsna says, "Whatever state of being one remembers when he quits his body, O son of Kunti, that state he will attain without fail." (B.G. 8.6) However, samsara may be likened to an atom's structure in which some electrons finally break their orbit. Sri Krsna also says, "In this endeavor there is no loss or diminution, and a little advancement on this path can protect one from the most dangerous type of fear." (B.G. 2.40) As one advances on the path one's orbit around illusion gradually separates until the stage of perfection occurs and one is able to break free of the cycle.
Yamuna Dasi - March 2, 2009 6:35 am
This is a nice explanation of how does the jiva leave the cycle of samsara, but the questions still stays:
Why does the jiva forget her previous lives?
Bhrigu - March 2, 2009 10:43 am
Yamuna, your question begins with a mistaken assumption. The purpose of samsara is not to give us the understanding to leave it. Since we have been here an eternity, we would all in that case have already been liberated an eternity ago.
Yamuna Dasi - March 2, 2009 4:08 pm
Yamuna, your question begins with a mistaken assumption. The purpose of samsara is not to give us the understanding to leave it. Since we have been here an eternity, we would all in that case have already been liberated an eternity ago.
The part regarding samsara was an additional question. The initial one stands even if the purpose of samsara is not to make us develop desire to leave it: Why does the jiva forget her previous lives?
Prahlad Das - March 2, 2009 5:08 pm
The part regarding samsara was an additional question. The initial one stands even if the purpose of samsara is not to make us develop desire to leave it: Why does the jiva forget her previous lives?
The impulses are retained in a general sense, which would indicate why some of us are better at some things naturally, and not others. Forgetfulness is attributed to Karma. We are "blessed/cursed" with forgetfulness of the details of our past deeds. It is a way in which we can situate ourselves nicely in the role we have cultured ourselves towards from past births. How will you be able to "enjoy" your current material existence if you are aware of the miseries of it from the past lives? It is something we need for our "peaceful" attempt at exploitation of our surroundings. When under illusion, we constantly strive for "punar punas charvita charvinanam" "chewing of the chewed, again and again". We find it in this life. The popular saying, "Those who forget the past, are doomed to repeat it", applies not only to current lives but past lives. As Gandhi says, "We want freedom, even if its the freedom to err". This sums up material existence. Shrila Shridhara Maharaj sums up spiritual existence in his position of "Absolute Slavery", as well as Srila Prabhupada reiterating time and time again that we must do everything for Krsna.
Krsna does provide for this forgetfulness in His B.G. 15.15.
Part of accepting the "new clothes" of a new body, is shedding the "old clothes" which includes the details of matters which relate to them.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - March 2, 2009 5:32 pm
Yamuna, your question begins with a mistaken assumption. The purpose of samsara is not to give us the understanding to leave it. Since we have been here an eternity, we would all in that case have already been liberated an eternity ago.
That is a convoluted logic you have bhrigu. you are using a logic with infinite souls and infinite time and dividing them.(it is like how zeno's paradox was arrived at)
GM has said that eventually everyone will be liberated and at the same time there will be souls here.(both things are true)
The purpose of samsara is not to give us understanding, really? What is the problem with that logic that samsara is a learning experience also.
That maybe one of reason by which souls can voluntary chose their will to align with krsna's will.
Prahlad Das - March 2, 2009 5:48 pm
That is a convoluted logic you have bhrigu. you are using a logic with infinite souls and infinite time and dividing them.(it is like how zeno's paradox was arrived at)GM has said that eventually everyone will be liberated and at the same time there will be souls here.(both things are true)
The purpose of samsara is not to give us understanding, really? What is the problem with that logic that samsara is a learning experience also.
That maybe one of reason by which souls can voluntary chose their will to align with krsna's will.
The purpose of samsara is for the jiva to experience their choices to exploit. I think Bhrigu Prabhu is following the idea of it, although there may have been some (poorly?) chosen words. It is by Grace in which we come into contact with liberated souls and it is this Grace and service to this Grace which allows us to leave the samsara. Otherwise we are busy being "little Hiranyakasipu". Grasshopper, cat, praying mantis, fish, white, black, male, female, all for the sake of trying to enjoy our independence.
This Grace is what allows our samsara to cease. samsara davanala lidha loka... It is not that our own capacity will allow us to. (Since our tendency is to be focused on our plane here).
Without it we will be here infinitely. How lucky we are that Swami has assured us we will leave at some point. This is true Grace!!! Now to grab on and hold tight!
Syamasundara - March 2, 2009 5:58 pm
The mind has a self-protecting mechanism by which it tends to store bad memories under the carpet, so to speak. I have no recollection of breaking an arm at 3, if it wasn't for a photo I have, while I have very vivid memories of pleasant incidents that happened to me around the same age.
Dying and coming out of a womb are together such traumatic experiences for the incarnated soul, that seem to be enough for the individual to reset his or her memory.
SB 3.31.23
Pushed downward all of a sudden by the wind, the child comes out with great trouble, head downward, breathless and deprived of memory due to severe agony.
The resetting of memory is also essential for the soul to be able to "enjoy" the fruit of what it has desired, pushed (or pulled) by one guna or the other, or of what it has sowed with its previous actions. It goes together with the delusion of the conditioned soul; and that is why advanced spiritualists, who are on the path of light and clarity, may remember their past better, as well as seeing the path more clearly ahead of them.
SB 5.8.28: Although in the body of a deer, Bharata Mahārāja, due to his rigid devotional service in his past life, could understand the cause of his birth in that body. Considering his past and present life, he constantly repented his activities, speaking in the following way.
SB 5.9.3 Due to his being especially gifted with the Lord's mercy, Bharata Mahārāja could remember the incidents of his past life. Although he received the body of a brāhmaṇa, he was still very much afraid of his relatives and friends who were not devotees. He was always very cautious of such association because he feared that he would again fall down. Consequently he manifested himself before the public eye as a madman — dull, blind and deaf — so that others would not try to talk to him. In this way he saved himself from bad association. Within he was always thinking of the lotus feet of the Lord and chanting the Lord's glories, which save one from the bondage of fruitive action. In this way he saved himself from the onslaught of nondevotee associates.
Bhrigu - March 2, 2009 6:31 pm
That is a convoluted logic you have bhrigu. you are using a logic with infinite souls and infinite time and dividing them.(it is like how zeno's paradox was arrived at)GM has said that eventually everyone will be liberated and at the same time there will be souls here.(both things are true)
The purpose of samsara is not to give us understanding, really? What is the problem with that logic that samsara is a learning experience also.
That maybe one of reason by which souls can voluntary chose their will to align with krsna's will.
Gaura Vijaya, I fail to understand why the amount of souls (infinite or not) would be a factor here, unless you posit that new souls are born, fall down from Vaikuntha or something like that. If samsara is meant to give us understanding, we must assume that over some finite amount of time, each soul will get this understanding simply by being in samsara, whether it takes a hundred lifetimes or ten billion times ten billion lifetimes. Subtract that time from the infinity of time that we have been here, and what will you arrive at?
Gaura-Vijaya Das - March 2, 2009 6:53 pm
Gaura Vijaya, I fail to understand why the amount of souls (infinite or not) would be a factor here, unless you posit that new souls are born, fall down from Vaikuntha or something like that. If samsara is meant to give us understanding, we must assume that over some finite amount of time, each soul will get this understanding simply by being in samsara, whether it takes a hundred lifetimes or ten billion times ten billion lifetimes. Subtract that time from the infinity of time that we have been here, and what will you arrive at?
No there will be infinity of souls which are still to be activated from susupti and hence souls will continue to be there(that is how GM had answered it somewhere I don't remember where). And there be infinite souls which will be take infinite lifetimes to be liberated making it beyond the reach of simple logic to understand.
Math is not so easy as you make out to be. If you see what paradoxes mathematicians have arrived, you will see that you have to use infinity very cautiously while drawing logical deductions from it.
Samsara is only one of the factors as I said( I never said it is the only one); there is another which is more important i.e, grace of a sadhu. But the design of imperfection in the world is obviously to make us realize if told by the sadhu that we are more suited to be under svarupa sakti rather than maya sakti.
f samsara is meant to give us understanding, we must assume that over some finite amount of time, each soul will get this understanding simply by being in samsara
infinity of time minus ten billion time ten billion or an "infinite" amount you take=0 according to you. First of all infinity is not defined and subtracting like this is not as easy a procedure as you make it out to be.
Prahlad Das - March 2, 2009 7:37 pm
No there will be infinity of souls which are still to be activated from susupti and hence souls will continue to be there(that is how GM had answered it somewhere I don't remember where). And there be infinite souls which will be take infinite lifetimes to be liberated making it beyond the reach of simple logic to understand.Math is not so easy as you make out to be. If you see what paradoxes mathematicians have arrived, you will see that you have to use infinity very cautiously while drawing logical deductions from it.
Samsara is only one of the factors as I said( I never said it is the only one); there is another which is more important i.e, grace of a sadhu. But the design of imperfection in the world is obviously to make us realize if told by the sadhu that we are more suited to be under svarupa sakti rather than maya sakti.
f samsara is meant to give us understanding, we must assume that over some finite amount of time, each soul will get this understanding simply by being in samsara
infinity of time minus ten billion time ten billion or an "infinite" amount you take=0 according to you. First of all infinity is not defined and subtracting like this is not as easy a procedure as you make it out to be.
I differ from you here, in that the design of imperfection in this world is not so glaringly obvious. It will not be self-evident in its imperfections unless there is "jnana anjana salakaya". Without this jnana anjana we will never know that we are even in samsara. Hence it is the mission of the most high elevated saints to exhibit their audarya karuna sindhu. To think that of our own volition will can be aware our own nature is an idea I will be cautious and hesitant to accept.
I support the notion that the ONLY factor is the GRACE of a SADHU.
Shri Guru Vandana
by Shrila Narottama dasa Thakura
(1)
shri-guru-charana-padma, kevala-bhakati-sadma
bando mui savadhana mate
jahara prasade bhai, e bhava toriya jai,
krishna-prapti hoy jaha ha'te
(2)
guru-mukha-padma-vakya, chittete koriya aikya
ar na koriho mane asha
shri-guru-charane rati, ei se uttama-gati
je prasade pure sarva asha
(3)
chakhu-dan dilo jei, janme janme prabhu sei
divya-jnan hride prokashito
prema-bhakti jaha hoite, avidya vinasha jate
vede gay jahara charito
(4)
shri-guru karuna-sindhu, adhama janara bandhu
lokanath lokera jivana
ha ha prabhu koro doya, deho more pada-chaya
ebe jasha ghushuk tribhavana
* Note* How appropriate this bhajan came up now 
Thank you all for this!
Gaura-Vijaya Das - March 2, 2009 7:42 pm
I differ from you here, in that the design of imperfection in this world is not so glaringly obvious. It will not be self-evident in its imperfections unless there is "jnana anjana salakaya". Without this jnana anjana we will never know that we are even in samsara. Hence it is the mission of the most high elevated saints to exhibit their audarya krpa sindhu. To think that of our own volition will can be aware our own nature is an idea I will be cautious and hesitant to accept.
Alright there is huge debate between determinism and free will and BVT accepts a combination of both. I said the idea of imperfection is expressed by the "sadhu" and that makes a jiva understand the futility of the samsara. Our own experience of samsara also attests to the imperfection and is a supplementary factor in aiding our choice to go with the guru. Volition cannot be completely removed from the equation though it is good to feel that we don't have any volition. Upanishads have repeatedly expressed the concept of volition.
The question of whether you are hesitant to accept or I am hesitant to accept does not arise because reality will not change based on my or your opinion.
Imperfection in the world is a idea which is very current especially after the evolutionary theory and that is why many scientists did away with the designer. the argument was that there is too much imperfection for there to be a designer. Our eyes are not perfect and no part of our body is perfect enough compared to some animal. In SSM's book subjective evolution he says that the imperfection here has an indirect connection to the perfection in the spiritual world and it is to enhance the perfection of the spiritual world there is imperfection here.
And this idea is expressed in the banyan tree example which many philosophers like Plato and psychologists like Jung have captured. If there is imperfection there must be perfection somewhere ; that is something many people have realized in the past.
Prahlad Das - March 2, 2009 8:33 pm
Alright there is huge debate between determinism and free will and BVT accepts a combination of both. I said the idea of imperfection is expressed by the "sadhu" and that makes a jiva understand the futility of the samsara.
You haven't said this till now.
Our own experience of samsara also attests to the imperfection and is a supplementary factor in aiding our choice to go with the guru. Volition cannot be completely removed from the equation though it is good to feel that we don't have any volition. Upanishads have repeatedly expressed the concept of volition.
I agreeThe question of whether you are hesitant to accept or I am hesitant to accept does not arise because reality will not change based on my or your opinion.
Imperfection in the world is a idea which is very current especially after the evolutionary theory and that is why many scientists did away with the designer. the argument was that there is too much imperfection for there to be a designer. Our eyes are not perfect and no part of our body is perfect enough compared to some animal. In SSM's book subjective evolution he says that the imperfection here has an indirect connection to the perfection in the spiritual world and it is to enhance the perfection of the spiritual world there is imperfection here.And this idea is expressed in the banyan tree example which many philosophers like Plato and psychologists like Jung have captured. If there is imperfection there must be perfection somewhere ; that is something many people have realized in the past.
The revelation of the spiritual world does not happen of our volition but of descending grace. It is this grace by which we are able to contrast our samsara with perfection.... So yes, from this perspective (a distanced from samsara perspective) samsara serves as a contrast. However, in and of itself, it does not serve to create a distaste for it, it serves as a tool for the continuity of the jiva's attempt at exploitation. As for philosophers like Plato and Jung, they have had some divine insight. They are clearly not the standard, but an exception to the "norm". People like them are su durlabha, what to speak of more advanced souls or eternally liberated souls.
Yamuna, you may want to open another thread for your original question since this one seems to stimulate current interest
Gaura-Vijaya Das - March 2, 2009 8:56 pm
Samsara is only one of the factors as I said( I never said it is the only one); there is another which is more important i.e, grace of a sadhu. But the design of imperfection in the world is obviously to make us realize if told by the sadhu that we are more suited to be under svarupa sakti rather than maya sakti.
That is where I have said it before.
If the world is completely perfect even the sadhu will not be able to rescue the jiva from the samsara as what is there to rescue from a perfect world which satisfies the jiva completely. asasvatam dukhalayam why is material existence described like this by krsna. By changing our vision through the grace of guru we can see the world as perfect though.
It is a burning fire so there is grace. World is not perfect in fulfilling the jiva. Jiva actually is aloof from matter even though through false ego he identifies with it.
Yes there are few souls like those( manusyanam sahatresu) and that is why it takes infinite time for infinite souls as not many souls at any instant can realize that though krsna wants them to realize that. Mahavisnu sends the sastra to make them realize that and krsna devotees come to make the soul realize that.
I differ from you in that the world does not aid in creating distaste for it. So before getting and debating this more let GM or Babru intervene and let them decide instead of us giving further opinions based on our presumptions.
yamuna can continue with here question
Prahlad Das - March 2, 2009 9:29 pm
I am happy to wait till GM and Babhru Prabhu "intervene".
I look forward to their comments.
You are basically saying the same thing as Bhrigu Prabhu or I am saying; by the Descending Grace's contrasting imagery we are able to learn from samsara that it is undesirable. However, both Bhrigu Prabhu and I have asserted that samsara, in and of itself, doesn't serve to gradually release its "captives", but that it serves as a continuum.
So, now I will wait.... (unless you'd like to add)
Yamuna Dasi - March 2, 2009 9:36 pm
The impulses are retained in a general sense, which would indicate why some of us are better at some things naturally, and not others. Forgetfulness is attributed to Karma. We are "blessed/cursed" with forgetfulness of the details of our past deeds. It is a way in which we can situate ourselves nicely in the role we have cultured ourselves towards from past births. How will you be able to "enjoy" your current material existence if you are aware of the miseries of it from the past lives? It is something we need for our "peaceful" attempt at exploitation of our surroundings. When under illusion, we constantly strive for "punar punas charvita charvinanam" "chewing of the chewed, again and again". We find it in this life. The popular saying, "Those who forget the past, are doomed to repeat it", applies not only to current lives but past lives. As Gandhi says, "We want freedom, even if its the freedom to err". This sums up material existence. Shrila Shridhara Maharaj sums up spiritual existence in his position of "Absolute Slavery", as well as Srila Prabhupada reiterating time and time again that we must do everything for Krsna.
Krsna does provide for this forgetfulness in His B.G. 15.15.
Part of accepting the "new clothes" of a new body, is shedding the "old clothes" which includes the details of matters which relate to them.
Wow, what a nice explanation! Thank you, Prahlad!
Where is this from: "punar punas charvita charvinanam" "chewing of the chewed, again and again"? I've remembered it as words of Shrila Prabhupad but here it sounds as a scriptural quote, is it?
As you have mentioned in BG 15.15 Krishna saying:
"I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness."
What determines to which jiva He gives remembrance, to which knowledge and to which forgetfulness or he gives a specific "personally designed" cocktail of all these 3 to every jiva? Is it the desire of the jiva, its karma acquired or the desire of Krishna? Or a combination of all of these?
Yamuna Dasi - March 2, 2009 10:05 pm
Yamuna, your question begins with a mistaken assumption. The purpose of samsara is not to give us the understanding to leave it. Since we have been here an eternity, we would all in that case have already been liberated an eternity ago.
Bhrigu prabhu, is it a mistaken presumption if I see and preach that in the material world everything is perfectly designed for good (this also includes for our good and benefit) and in this line of thoughts even the "incommodities" (one of which is also the trap of samsara) are perfectly designed as to indicate us again and again that we don't belong here originally... as souls... and in this way as more a jiva stops misidentifying with the body and the mind it slowly and surely changes it's "orbit" in samsara with a broader and broader one... till eventually the "gravity" (i.e. the strength of the threefold rope of the gunas) of samsara gets insignificantly weak and unable to keep that jiva in orbit any longer so it leaves... for good!
If samsara is uncomfortable for the jiva, this is a perfect way of Krishna telling us "if this chair does not suit you, then raise from it"... so this is part of the design of samsara I think and in this sense maybe we can say that one of the purposes of samsara is to give us the understanding to leave it. Isn't it so if seen from this angle?
For the sake of preaching maybe we can say so in order to explain some incommodities in the material world in a positive way which can motivate people to change their angle of vision and instead of feeling like victims of samsara (rebellious against the incommodities or for being cheated by some bad chance) to embrace the opportunity of becoming volunteers to leave it…
Prahlad Das - March 2, 2009 10:25 pm
Wow, what a nice explanation! Thank you, Prahlad!
Where is this from: "punar punas charvita charvinanam" "chewing of the chewed, again and again"? I've remembered it as words of Shrila Prabhupad but here it sounds as a scriptural quote, is it?
As you have mentioned in BG 15.15 Krishna saying:
"I am seated in everyone's heart, and from Me come remembrance, knowledge and forgetfulness."
What determines to which jiva He gives remembrance, to which knowledge and to which forgetfulness or he gives a specific "personally designed" cocktail of all these 3 to every jiva? Is it the desire of the jiva, its karma acquired or the desire of Krishna? Or a combination of all of these?
Thank you for your compliment. The quote is found in S.B. 7.5.30. Sri Prahlad Maharaj says it.
I would suppose since Krishna is speaking the passage in B.G. 15.15, it would be Him who determines it. We exist solely for His Sweet Will.
Yamuna Dasi - March 2, 2009 10:26 pm
The purpose of samsara is not to give us understanding, really? What is the problem with that logic that samsara is a learning experience also.That maybe one of reason by which souls can voluntary chose their will to align with krsna's will.
Yes, you have expressed the same idea like mine in other words. That's exactly what I mean.
We all know that finally everything is for His pleasure, but why should this exclude our own benefit (from spiritual point of view) and the soul’s final pleasure-experiencing which will be a mutual one from the shared mutual feeling and common lila with Krishna? Isn't this what Maharaj is speaking about in his "The Joy of Self"? I have understood it that the jiva has the right to be a "born hedonist" because the search for pleasure is part of its nature and the only problem is the wrong direction taken in search for her pleasure in the direction of matter and sense gratification, which cannot please her anyway.
In this way we can differentiate between the condemned by the Scriptures hedonism (or search for pleasure) in direction of matter and glorify the same in direction of Krishna. Both are hedonism, but one is the right one and the other is the wrong one.
When I preach I do say that the soul is amorocentric and pleasurocentric and this is perfectly OK!
Yamuna Dasi - March 2, 2009 11:28 pm
By the way if we speak of pleasure and the right for search of pleasure, I’d like to mention that I loved it when I came across the paradox of hedonism:
The paradox of hedonism, also called the pleasure paradox, is the idea in the study of ethics which points out that pleasure and happiness are strange phenomena that do not obey normal principles. First explicitly noted by the philosopher Henry Sidgwick in The Methods of Ethics, the paradox of hedonism points out that pleasure cannot be acquired directly, it can only be acquired indirectly.
This paradox so gloriously comes to the same conclusion to which all the Vedic knowledge finally leads – that the true pleasure springs only from the mutual love between the jiva and Krishna and it can be accquired when targeted indirectly by serving those who are already His lovers.
Bhrigu - March 3, 2009 12:07 pm
No there will be infinity of souls which are still to be activated from susupti and hence souls will continue to be there.
There is one problem with this idea: what determines the karma of the first life of such a jiva? It is precisely to get around this problem that the VS posits that our entanglement within karma is without beginning (anadi). Being activated is of course a beginning.
infinity of time minus ten billion time ten billion or an "infinite" amount you take=0 according to you. First of all infinity is not defined and subtracting like this is not as easy a procedure as you make it out to be.
Oh no, my point was that infinity minus any finite number is still infinite (purnasya purnam adaya purnam evavasisyate). Of course this becomes a problem in the case of the grace of sadhus as well, though perhaps not as glaring in the "samsara teaches" alternative. What is the chance that one jiva will get the grace of a sadhu? If it is infinitely small, nobody will ever be liberated, and if it is finite, when compared to infinite time, everyone would already have been liberated, no matter how small that chance is.
So you are right, Gaura-Vijaya, this is much less simple than it seemed to me from the beginning. I would very much like to hear the siddhanta on all of this!
Gaura-Vijaya Das - March 3, 2009 5:13 pm
There is one problem with this idea: what determines the karma of the first life of such a jiva? It is precisely to get around this problem that the VS posits that our entanglement within karma is without beginning (anadi). Being activated is of course a beginning.Oh no, my point was that infinity minus any finite number is still infinite (purnasya purnam adaya purnam evavasisyate). Of course this becomes a problem in the case of the grace of sadhus as well, though perhaps not as glaring in the "samsara teaches" alternative. What is the chance that one jiva will get the grace of a sadhu? If it is infinitely small, nobody will ever be liberated, and if it is finite, when compared to infinite time, everyone would already have been liberated, no matter how small that chance is.
So you are right, Gaura-Vijaya, this is much less simple than it seemed to me from the beginning. I would very much like to hear the siddhanta on all of this!
I always agreed that there is a problem with all of these ideas because we are applying our human logic to things which can't be encompassed by it. I made a comment about the souls being activated, as GM had made it somewhere( I can't find it) . I think there were some people who had the idea in a Upanishad that new souls are generated when all souls are liberated so Jiva Gosvami said that they are not generated( there are infinite universes in which some souls are yet to be activated(their existence in in deep sleep
or susupti)). Anyway Madhava finds his theory to be good as he eliminates free will from the equation and already makes it clear that some souls will perpetually rot here and those souls are predetermined. And there are souls who are predetermined to go to vaikuntha.
Every concept has its problems.
Yamuna Dasi - March 3, 2009 7:13 pm
I always agreed that there is a problem with all of these ideas because we are applying our human logic to things which can't be encompassed by it. I made a comment about the souls being activated, as GM had made it somewhere( I can't find it) . I think there were some people who had the idea in a Upanishad that new souls are generated when all souls are liberated so Jiva Gosvami said that they are not generated( there are infinite universes in which some souls are yet to be activated(their existence in in deep sleepor susupti)). Anyway Madhava finds his theory to be good as he eliminates free will from the equation and already makes it clear that some souls will perpetually rot here and those souls are predetermined. And there are souls who are predetermined to go to vaikuntha.
Every concept has its problems.
Madhava Acharya and Jiva Goswami believed in predetemination and preached that?
Gaura-Vijaya Das - March 3, 2009 8:23 pm
Madhava Acharya and Jiva Goswami believed in predetemination and preached that?
madava acarya not jiva goswami.
Prahlad Das - March 3, 2009 11:58 pm
Gaura-Vijaya Das - March 4, 2009 12:16 am
I can put a lot of quotes( like kunti says you need to materially exhausted to surrender to krsna) to prove my point.
I don't like the idea of using these kind of voluminous notes and highlighting some words to prove tattva. HDG has done that extensively to prove that jiva fell down.
Prahlad says that he has no independence but jiva has minute free will also(but as you advance in devotional life you feel everything is just grace and there is no free will; it is good feeling). There are assertions to prove the free will of jiva also.. Certainly even if grace comes the jiva has the independence to not use the grace well by making offenses. How will people smear their bodies with the dust of vaishnavas when they don't want to in the first place and they want to enjoy and feel that the samsara is perfect. Neither instruction nor their efforts help?? neither instruction from vaisnvasas can help, right?
Prahlad Das - March 4, 2009 12:23 am
Kindly don't use prabhupada's quotes out of context to completely minimize what I said.I can put a lot of quotes( like kunti says you need to materially exhausted to surrender to krsna) to prove my point.
I don't like the idea of using prabhupada's purports for tattva.
Actually, these are not purports, but only the translations of the verses from 7.5.1 to 7.5.33. I tried to make it as concise as possible. In the end, I think it will come out that any sort of material exhaustion can only be recognized by the grace of a sadhu. Read the whole chapter It is described as essential and foundational to our spiritual success.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - March 4, 2009 12:27 am
Actually, these are not purports, but only the translations of the verses from 7.5.1 to 7.5.33. I tried to make it as concise as possible. In the end, I think it will come out that any sort of material exhaustion can only be recognized by the grace of a sadhu. Read the whole chapter
You have already closed your opinion and you want to prove your point while I told you to wait and bhrigu also is waiting.
What is the point of just thrusting everything you know down my throat when you are not even sensitive to my points I am making. Jiva Goswami through the Damodar Lila pastime illustrates that bhakti is independent but we need to cooperate when it descends on us and there is free will there. Very small percentage of people find the world to be perfect for enjoyment(maybe 4% people) but mostly they have to make a compromise as they don't believe they have any other choice. If samsara was so perfect for jiva's enjoyment and desires then mahavisnu would not moved by the plight of jiva's suffering( as jiva does not fare well compared to material nature). There could be just one eternal life with no old age, birth, disease and suffering. Most people don;t even believe that there is a better alternative though they see that they suffer repeatedly and with the grace of the sadhu that faith in something better can be ignited. But imperfection in samsara itself gives some impetus to search for a sadhu(atleast that is what happens with many people seeking spiritual life, whether it be seeker of absolute truth or people coming because of material distress( these are the people krsna describes))
Anyway I leave it now.
Prahlad Das - March 4, 2009 12:32 am
You have already closed your opinion and you want to prove your point while I told you to wait and bhrigu also is waiting.What is the point of just thrusting everything you know down my throat when you are not even sensitive to my points I am making.
Buddy, I'm not trying to thrust anything down your throat. As you've just indicated, you haven't objectively read what I've posted, and instead accused me of using "Prabhupada purports" as my pramana. Tell you what, I'm editing the last post I did and simply providing a link. Cool?
Gaura-Vijaya Das - March 4, 2009 12:41 am
Buddy, I'm not trying to thrust anything down your throat. As you've just indicated, you haven't objectively read what I've posted, and instead accused me of using "Prabhupada purports" as my pramana. Tell you what, I'm editing the last post I did and simply providing a link. Cool?
Thanks. have you objectively read what I am saying.
Prahlad Das - March 4, 2009 1:06 am
Thanks. have you objectively read what I am saying.
I'll let you know what I understand you are saying.
Samsara can teach a soul through its contrast to that which is not Samsara. The Jiva has minute will and of its own accord it can choose its attempts. The descending of bhakti is of its own volition, but we must be sensitive to it and thus strive after it.
Yamuna's question is this:
If the idea of circulating in samsara is to finally get the right conclusion to leave it, how does then jiva's previous experience serve this purpose if the jiva's memory gets deleted at the end of each lifetime?
My view is that the idea of circulating in samsara is not to get the right conclusion to leave it, but to continue to endeavor to exploit. Where I think we agree is that the idea of association with a sadhu is to get the right conclusion to leave samsara. Samsara is beginingless for the conditioned souls.
Let me know if I'm objectively hearing you
Gaura-Vijaya Das - March 4, 2009 1:11 am
I'll let you know what I understand you are saying.Samsara can teach a soul through its contrast to that which is not Samsara. The Jiva has minute will and of its own accord it can choose its attempts. The descending of bhakti is of its own volition, but we must be sensitive to it and thus strive after it.
Yamuna's question is this:
My view is that the idea of circulating in samsara is not to get the right conclusion to leave it, but to continue to endeavor to exploit. Where I think we agree is that the idea of association with a sadhu is to get the right conclusion to leave samsara. Samsara is beginingless for the conditioned souls.
Let me know if I'm objectively hearing you
Samsara may not give the right conclusion but an incentive to cooperate with the sadhu and sastras or the lord when he descends as an avatar. And understand the futility of the samsara as explained by sastra. Material exhaustion does not always come by the grace of the sadhu; soul's own nature in not perfectly fulfiled under maya sakti and he can realize it himself. But he will not find a way out without the grace of the sadhu.
Yes you have read me right and I have not got conclusive evidence to change my view. If GM wants I will change it. Thanks anyway for understanding me.
I was not addressing yamuna question. also think about the problem which bhrigu also admits is there with any approach.
As you know we agree on some essential things; the difference in our opinion is subtle but it is the difference in two sects of sri vaisnavas. you should know that it is not easy to take one side. Many devotional authorities can support either side.
Anyway sorry for being too offensive.
Prahlad Das - March 4, 2009 1:44 am
Cheers!