Haribol to all!
Generally I am very fearfull person regarding pain and suffering...
Two years ago I had brain-stroke, and in my case this was so
horrible and painfull experience (although it lasted only for few
hours), that it is unimaginable to the person who never went
through this.
This all brought to my mind the extent of horror we may experience
in the womb if we take next birth.
I am not very fixed up devotee, and therefore probably I will
not attract the mercy of Guru and Krsna to the extent that I
become spared from next birth.
This is making me extremely afraid, since I have to go to the womb
again and suffer all that inside the womb like it is dicsribed in the
Srimad Bhagavatam.
Now, someone will say: "If you want to escape the punishment,
you better become fixed up in your devotional practice!"
Someone else will say: "We as devotees are not after liberation.
We are supposed to cultivate bhakti, and liberation from material
pangs will come as a by product of bhakti."
Well, yes, I respect all such answers, but as everybody else,
I also have my personal pace in spiritual life. It seems that
if you are too slow (according to some shastra quote, or some
spiritual estimaiton) then you will take birth again.
I know this point of GM that you cannot enter the Krsna lila
unless you have no position for yourself there, and they will
tell you - you do not belong here, who is your mother, father,
where do you live here, what is your role here ...
So, ok, I expect that it will be a long way to go... many births
for persons like me...
Considering all that is said above,
My question is - Will Krsna spare persons like me when I take
new birth, from the suffering in the next womb? - I mean to
spare me at least to the certain extent, or I will have to suffer
as ordinary persons who do not care for spiritual life at all
(and will take birth again as humans), regardless of the fact
that I am in the process of gradual bhakti purification?
Ys,
Devyah-pati das
From the karmic point of view, you could engage in such a way as to allow as many babies as possible to have a painless permanence in the womb and birth.
You could get some medical degree, find the cure to certain pathologies that happen to a fetus while in the womb, or donate to a certain foundation with similar concerns; but from a more realistic point of view, and I mean the spiritual one, that would be an incredible waste of someone's energies and time.
First off, what makes you so sure you will take a human birth and you'll spend 9 months in a womb?
"Be here now" is not just a catchy phrase used to shut peoples' mouths when they have questions like yours, but a rather practical piece of advice.
You are concerned about some hypothetical future condition of your body and mind, but you don't seem to care as much about the pain and restriction you are experiencing right now, which is the one you can really act upon, and that, by the way, will influence your future, too.
To begin with, my understanding is that the Bhagavata talks about the worst possible scenario when it describes the condition in the womb, and it does so to make a point. Also, you seem to dwell on the pain aspect, but the SB also says that the soul, while in the womb, is in a very sober state and prays to the Lord fervently. That is also something you could do from now. When the soul is trapped in a body, that's trapped in another body, she has no chance to exploit and enjoy matter, and the uncomfortable position makes it even easier for one to resort to the Lord, but then, the very pressure on the baby's head at birth is said to erase its memory.
You are suffering now, but you can also pray now, and you can reason and decide how to act, and then pray some more.
Pain is relative to the mind anyway. Use all your energy to allow Manohar to bewitch you until you are so drunk with bhakti that you don't feel pain, like Haridas Thakur.
It sounds funny, and we don't always think of that, but it's really all about us allowing Krsna to do his magic. He has no interest or pleasure in keeping us steeped in material consciousness, that's for sure. So, it's really all about us opening the door for him, flicking the switch from NO to YES. But to get to that point is where all our energy is required, trying to make it across the deep and thick mud of our mind, with its perception of pain and pleasure, and its constant exercise of accepting one thing and rejecting another for its selfish interests.
At the same time, ito nrsimhah parato nrsimhah; we strive to get to the door and let Krsna in, but he's already in! Both outside and inside. Helping us in all ways. Yet, we don't let him.
At least in theory you know you are a soul, so act in your own interest, not in your mind's and body's
I hope that wasn't painful to hear....
Haribol to all!Generally I am very fearfull person regarding pain and suffering...
Two years ago I had brain-stroke, and in my case this was so
horrible and painfull experience (although it lasted only for few
hours), that it is unimaginable to the person who never went
through this.
This all brought to my mind the extent of horror we may experience
in the womb if we take next birth.
I am not very fixed up devotee, and therefore probably I will
not attract the mercy of Guru and Krsna to the extent that I
become spared from next birth.
This is making me extremely afraid, since I have to go to the womb
again and suffer all that inside the womb like it is dicsribed in the
Srimad Bhagavatam.
Now, someone will say: "If you want to escape the punishment,
you better become fixed up in your devotional practice!"
Someone else will say: "We as devotees are not after liberation.
We are supposed to cultivate bhakti, and liberation from material
pangs will come as a by product of bhakti."
Well, yes, I respect all such answers, but as everybody else,
I also have my personal pace in spiritual life. It seems that
if you are too slow (according to some shastra quote, or some
spiritual estimaiton) then you will take birth again.
I know this point of GM that you cannot enter the Krsna lila
unless you have no position for yourself there, and they will
tell you - you do not belong here, who is your mother, father,
where do you live here, what is your role here ...
So, ok, I expect that it will be a long way to go... many births
for persons like me...
Considering all that is said above,
My question is - Will Krsna spare persons like me when I take
new birth, from the suffering in the next womb? - I mean to
spare me at least to the certain extent, or I will have to suffer
as ordinary persons who do not care for spiritual life at all
(and will take birth again as humans), regardless of the fact
that I am in the process of gradual bhakti purification?
Ys,
Devyah-pati das
Do not worry for even a moment longer about having to experience extreme pain in the womb should you take another birth. Live the balance of this live in devotional service, and if you take another birth, the period spent in the womb will not be painful in the way you are imagining. Take my word on this and my blessing.
Thank you Syamasundara Prabhu.
You told me some very good points.
I would like to hear some more points
(if there will be any more of them)
on this subject, from other devotees
too, some more angles of vision.
Ys,
Devyah-pati das
p.s. For 20 years I am in the proces of bhakti
more or less, in the beginning it was all utsaha,
and as the time passed by I became weak
and tired... Still, the contact with devotees
always brings me up, and it is my means of
success if there is any of it in me.
Just sadhu sanga... and now when I found
GM and all of you here on Tattva-viveka
my life is full of hope and spiritual vitality.
Do not worry for even a moment longer about having to experience extreme pain in the womb should you take another birth. Live the balance of this live in devotional service, and if you take another birth, the period spent in the womb will not be painful in the way you are imagining. Take my word on this and my blessing.
Dear Guru Maharaj,
I know that there are no means to thank my spiritual master enough,
for any attention that he personaly gave to me. Still, I use this opportunity
to thank you thousand times for chasing away my fear.
I completely accept what you have said as irrevocable fact, and feel strong
and blessed to continue with my regular devotional activities however meager
they may be.
Your tiny servant,
Devyah-pati das
Dear Devyah-pati,
Your post was somehow very close to a feeling I had once. So I will share this experience with you.
I had a dream, very realistic one, that I am in front of the Yamuna river... and my Gurudeva Bhakti Abhay Narayan Maharaj, who had passed away, was at the other side ot Yamuna, on the other shore and was looking at me, saying nothing and doing nothing, just watching me. Of course I wanted to cross Yamuna and go to him... having no idea what it will be there or what I will do, just a strong desire to be there at the other side together with him. Bun in this dream in a mystical and unexplainable way (as it happens in the dreams) I knew for certain that people are of 2 kinds regarding one very special feature of the water of Yamuna river - it was disolving the flesh of some people and they were just getting like melted and dying when it's water touches them, whole others were able to swim and the water was not affecting them at all. So all people were ust of 2 kinds - some which can cross Yamuna and other who could not. And there was no other way to know of which kind you are except entering into the water. But if you enter and you are from the other kind, then you die being discolved. All this somehow I knew it, but I was watching Gurudev and he was watching me so I just followed my desire to go to him and entered the water going deeper and preparing to start swimming towards the other shore. I was just keeping eye contact with him and entering the water deeper and deeper without looking to my own body and if it is affected by the water or not. But in one moment a thought crossed my mind "will it hurt if I am from those people who get dissolved and die?" In that moment I stopped looking at Gurudev and looked to my hands to see... how they were dissolving and there was already blood and they were just disappearing... I felt no phisical pain, but the emotional pain that I am not of those capable to cross the river was very very strong! I just looked once again at Gurudev and then everything got vague and disappeared.
I woke up crying with tears.
When I told this story to my shiksha Guru and god brother B.K.Tirtha Maharaj, he just looked at me and told me: "Don't worry, when the moment comes, I will become a bridge for you and you will be able to cross Yamuna and go to Gurudev". I asked him if he promice and he nodded.
Some years passed since this dream of mine, and sometimes when Maharaj or someone mentiones somehow a bridge, he gives me a glance and we both know about his promice.
There must be some good reason why Krishna is telling Arjuna in Gita "do not fear!" It's a sweet feeling of confidence stronger than the fear which will lead us towards our goal. Confidence not in my own strength but in the mercy of Guru, Krishna and the devotees.
Dear Devyah-pati,
Your post was somehow very close to a feeling I had once. So I will share this experience with you.
I had a dream, very realistic one, that I am in front of the Yamuna river... and my Gurudeva Bhakti Abhay Narayan Maharaj, who had passed away, was at the other side ot Yamuna, on the other shore and was looking at me, saying nothing and doing nothing, just watching me. Of course I wanted to cross Yamuna and go to him... having no idea what it will be there or what I will do, just a strong desire to be there at the other side together with him. Bun in this dream in a mystical and unexplainable way (as it happens in the dreams) I knew for certain that people are of 2 kinds regarding one very special feature of the water of Yamuna river - it was disolving the flesh of some people and they were just getting like melted and dying when it's water touches them, whole others were able to swim and the water was not affecting them at all. So all people were ust of 2 kinds - some which can cross Yamuna and other who could not. And there was no other way to know of which kind you are except entering into the water. But if you enter and you are from the other kind, then you die being discolved. All this somehow I knew it, but I was watching Gurudev and he was watching me so I just followed my desire to go to him and entered the water going deeper and preparing to start swimming towards the other shore. I was just keeping eye contact with him and entering the water deeper and deeper without looking to my own body and if it is affected by the water or not. But in one moment a thought crossed my mind "will it hurt if I am from those people who get dissolved and die?" In that moment I stopped looking at Gurudev and looked to my hands to see... how they were dissolving and there was already blood and they were just disappearing... I felt no phisical pain, but the emotional pain that I am not of those capable to cross the river was very very strong! I just looked once again at Gurudev and then everything got vague and disappeared.
I woke up crying with tears.
When I told this story to my shiksha Guru and god brother B.K.Tirtha Maharaj, he just looked at me and told me: "Don't worry, when the moment comes, I will become a bridge for you and you will be able to cross Yamuna and go to Gurudev". I asked him if he promice and he nodded.
Some years passed since this dream of mine, and sometimes when Maharaj or someone mentiones somehow a bridge, he gives me a glance and we both know about his promice.
There must be some good reason why Krishna is telling Arjuna in Gita "do not fear!" It's a sweet feeling of confidence stronger than the fear which will lead us towards our goal. Confidence not in my own strength but in the mercy of Guru, Krishna and the devotees.
Sometimes it is hard to have confidence when we see that devotees, who have practised devotional service very sincerely for 30 years, are undergoing intense physical pain. One can say that this pain is in the territory of bhakti. Nonetheless it hurts a lot unless you are a mystic yogi with siddhis!!
Sometimes it is hard to have confidence when we see that devotees, who have practised devotional service very sincerely for 30 years, are undergoing intense physical pain. One can say that this pain is in the territory of bhakti. Nonetheless it hurts a lot unless you are a mystic yogi with siddhis!!
Perhaps a useful distinction to be made is between pain and suffering. If we have some detachment then we can see pain as just that without the mental anguish that accompanies pain for those who are attached. It doesn't mean the pain doesn't hurt, just that we don't add to it unnecessarily with our mental anguish.
Sometimes it is hard to have confidence when we see that devotees, who have practised devotional service very sincerely for 30 years, are undergoing intense physical pain. One can say that this pain is in the territory of bhakti. Nonetheless it hurts a lot unless you are a mystic yogi with siddhis!!
Did it happen to you to see such things happening? How do you explain it to yourself? Why would a pure devotee who have served for 30 years have to suffer? How would you explain it if someone to who you are preaching would ask you these questions?
These days I was reading again from Shrila Prabhupad's biography and he was also facing so many problems and troubles and pains... 2 heart attacks, strike with a lot of suffering, strange people coming and disturbing... even his wife and kids were not devotees and were against his activities... as described also his god brothers did not help him at all in his service. One must be really an ocean of enthusiasm and devotion to be able to go on through so many obstacles.
But all his efforts were so greatly rewarded finally!
I think that like Citta mentioned, there is an essential difference between pain and suffering that has to be noted. The 4 klesas (sufferings) are different than the 3-fold miseries of the material world. The miseries here are thos caused by nature, other living entities, and ourselves. Only the last one actually overlaps with the klesas as it largely refers to the problems that our mind causes us. The 4 klesas are described as follows though (taken from GM's post on another thread here):
Asmita—false ego; the bodily identification of I and mine; and to accept only direct sense perception as real.
Raga—attachment; the desire for material happiness and those means which will give it.
Dvesa—hatred; the repulsion to unhappiness or the causes of unhappiness.
Abhinivesa—absorption in the body as the basis for sense gratification and fear of death.
It is the 4 klesas that are burned away in the practice of bhakti. That does not mean pain from outside will not come.
Another nice way Srila Prabhupada explained this point is that he said the pure devotee's difficulties are like love bites from Krishna.
I hope to write an article for Harmonist about this all if I can understand it and have the skill to do so.
I think that like Citta mentioned, there is an essential difference between pain and suffering that has to be noted. The 4 klesas (sufferings) are different than the 3-fold miseries of the material world. The miseries here are thos caused by nature, other living entities, and ourselves. Only the last one actually overlaps with the klesas as it largely refers to the problems that our mind causes us. The 4 klesas are described as follows though (taken from GM's post on another thread here):
Asmita—false ego; the bodily identification of I and mine; and to accept only direct sense perception as real.
Raga—attachment; the desire for material happiness and those means which will give it.
Dvesa—hatred; the repulsion to unhappiness or the causes of unhappiness.
Abhinivesa—absorption in the body as the basis for sense gratification and fear of death.
It is the 4 klesas that are burned away in the practice of bhakti. That does not mean pain from outside will not come.
Another nice way Srila Prabhupada explained this point is that he said the pure devotee's difficulties are like love bites from Krishna.
I hope to write an article for Harmonist about this all if I can understand it and have the skill to do so.
nice points. In practice to be completely fearless and smile in a pit with snakes around you like Prahlada or to enjoy the bed of arrows like bhisma is not easy.
If a wild beast like a tiger is in front of you or a guy is torturing your body, it is not easy to see that krsna resides in their heart too and we are not the body.
A devotee I knew had his arms and genitals chopped of by a terrorist and he was in agony and anxiety for a huge time. This after practising for 12 years seriously.
I've once heard it said, "Pain is mandatory, Suffering is optional".
Nice proverb.