Tattva-viveka
Agnideva at 24-hour Kirtan!!!!!!!
Gaurangi-priya Devi - June 20, 2009 11:35 pm
You can watch Agni leading kirtan right now, 7:30pm eastern time, in New Vrindavana on
krishna.com or gauravani.com
He is supposed to be leading tomorrow Sunday, at 7am eastern time as well.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - June 21, 2009 12:22 am
You can watch Agni leading kirtan right now, 7:30pm eastern time, in New Vrindavana on
krishna.com or gauravani.com
He is supposed to be leading tomorrow Sunday, at 7am eastern time as well.
Is madan gopal there too on the harmonium? I am seeing it right now.
who called him, ISKCON people?
Babhru Das - June 21, 2009 2:40 am
Dang--missed it! But I think he has a shift tomorrow morning.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - June 21, 2009 4:01 am
how come ISKCON people invited him in spite of his affiliation with GM?
some positive signs?
Babhru Das - June 21, 2009 11:13 am
Agni's on now. From the Facebook comments I've seen, devotees around the world have been waiting for his next shift.
Gaurangi-priya Devi - June 21, 2009 2:01 pm
It was so beautiful to see him singing with Radhanatha Swami this morning. Agnideva is the best!! The holy name is building bridges. And yes, Madan drove up to see Agni, and got to play harmonium with him last night.
Madan Gopal Das - June 21, 2009 10:00 pm
Iskcon news site speaks about the 24 hour kirtan and nicely clarifies Agni's presence... Excerpt:
Kirtan also has the power to heal and to bring people together. Agnideva Dasa, a disciple of Srila Prabhupada and one of the original kirtan masters since the 1970s, has long served outside of ISKCON with Tripurari Swami—yet this year, he will sing at the 24 Hour Kirtan Festival. Because, as Gaura Vani says, “The one thing we can all agree on is our goal of chanting Krishna’s name constantly.”
http://news.iskcon.com/node/2096/2009-06-2..._virginia_hills
Gaura-Vijaya Das - June 22, 2009 2:50 am
Iskcon news site speaks about the 24 hour kirtan and nicely clarifies Agni's presence... Excerpt:http://news.iskcon.com/node/2096/2009-06-2..._virginia_hills
That is very nice. Anyway it was good to see RNS get together with Agnideva in the morning though the more conservative devotees in ISKCON still influence the GBC heavily.
Madan Gopal Das - June 22, 2009 5:08 am
I went just to see Agni, to be with family. Yes, I'm a lover of kirtan, and there was plenty of it, but there was also the social scene, the kirtan rock star scene, and I was entirely satisfied just to be with Agni because when you know where someone's heart is at (with GM), then you feel at home. Agni was a kirtan embassy for GM in a foreign land. So many people came to see him and glorify his kirtan and the good 'ol days of his kirtan in iskcon, but I felt so much pride and a little possessiveness that "he's ours"! Overall it was very nice. I just stayed by Agni's side the whole time. We walked around, talked about happenings at Audarya, our faith in GM, ideas for kirtan, etc.
Some highlights:
Saturday breakfast we sat with Ramesvara prabhu. I had never met him before and it was quite interesting. He's very dramatic, offers apologies to everyone, yells jai prabhupada and kind of funny stuff and offers lots of obeisances. He's re-into book distribution like it ain't ever goin' out of style. Agni said he's "in a time warp". Agni was preaching to him about GM, hopefully some of it is sinking in. Probably meeting GM would (will?) do a lot.
Saturday for lunch we sat with Radhanath Swami for two hours or so. Radhanath Swami is very sweet, genuine and can tend to embarrass people (Agni) with glorification. I think he avoids controversy like the plague, but sometimes I wish a person of his influence would voice his respect for GM just to counter the persistent phobias in iskcon of "outsiders". Like for this program, it was arranged completely by the youth who don't really care for the old politics and so invite someone like Agni. But I know that if there was anything beyond kirtan, or if GM were to come the 1st generation or GBC would be listening for a line to be crossed just for an excuse to keep division. Funny thing is, I think the majority of iskcon devotees are mature enough to understand and deal with difference and be able to appreciate diversity without jumping the iskcon ship, but the GBC are like old cranky over-protective parents afraid to let the children grow up. I only think this small step of inviting Agni to come was possible because Radhanath Swami was the only iskcon leader around, and he is very respectful of GM. That character spreads down to many of his disciples. I know that he is very charitable with glorification, but he repeatedly told me that I was "very fortunate" to be GM's disciple and he told Atmananda (his own disciple) that it was "wonderful" that he was taking GM's association.
Radhanath Swami also spoke to us about Prabhupada's love for his godbrothers and that different missions should behave like extended family; offering mutual respect to each other. As Gaurangi said, it could be that the holy name will build bridges - we'll see. Several people asked Agni to come to future events. I think it would be nice to have a little more of a representation of SCS (I'm pushing for a kirtan band!) if he goes, so that we can add our sanga to the mix. It would be so nice to have our sanga attend events with no hyper-paranoia about difference. I could appreciate things in iskcon so much more if I could just bring my family (you all and GM). Otherwise, I'd just rather avoid these things. Cheers for unity in diversity!
Agni and I both invited Radhanath Swami to Audarya and he said he would love to come, but he is going back to India soon.
There will likely be some links to kirtans that I will post when it becomes available.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - June 22, 2009 11:04 pm
I went just to see Agni, to be with family. Yes, I'm a lover of kirtan, and there was plenty of it, but there was also the social scene, the kirtan rock star scene, and I was entirely satisfied just to be with Agni because when you know where someone's heart is at (with GM), then you feel at home. Agni was a kirtan embassy for GM in a foreign land. So many people came to see him and glorify his kirtan and the good 'ol days of his kirtan in iskcon, but I felt so much pride and a little possessiveness that "he's ours"! Overall it was very nice. I just stayed by Agni's side the whole time. We walked around, talked about happenings at Audarya, our faith in GM, ideas for kirtan, etc.Some highlights:
Saturday breakfast we sat with Ramesvara prabhu. I had never met him before and it was quite interesting. He's very dramatic, offers apologies to everyone, yells jai prabhupada and kind of funny stuff and offers lots of obeisances. He's re-into book distribution like it ain't ever goin' out of style. Agni said he's "in a time warp". Agni was preaching to him about GM, hopefully some of it is sinking in. Probably meeting GM would (will?) do a lot.
Saturday for lunch we sat with Radhanath Swami for two hours or so. Radhanath Swami is very sweet, genuine and can tend to embarrass people (Agni) with glorification. I think he avoids controversy like the plague, but sometimes I wish a person of his influence would voice his respect for GM just to counter the persistent phobias in iskcon of "outsiders". Like for this program, it was arranged completely by the youth who don't really care for the old politics and so invite someone like Agni. But I know that if there was anything beyond kirtan, or if GM were to come the 1st generation or GBC would be listening for a line to be crossed just for an excuse to keep division. Funny thing is, I think the majority of iskcon devotees are mature enough to understand and deal with difference and be able to appreciate diversity without jumping the iskcon ship, but the GBC are like old cranky over-protective parents afraid to let the children grow up. I only think this small step of inviting Agni to come was possible because Radhanath Swami was the only iskcon leader around, and he is very respectful of GM. That character spreads down to many of his disciples. I know that he is very charitable with glorification, but he repeatedly told me that I was "very fortunate" to be GM's disciple and he told Atmananda (his own disciple) that it was "wonderful" that he was taking GM's association.
Radhanath Swami also spoke to us about Prabhupada's love for his godbrothers and that different missions should behave like extended family; offering mutual respect to each other. As Gaurangi said, it could be that the holy name will build bridges - we'll see. Several people asked Agni to come to future events. I think it would be nice to have a little more of a representation of SCS (I'm pushing for a kirtan band!) if he goes, so that we can add our sanga to the mix. It would be so nice to have our sanga attend events with no hyper-paranoia about difference. I could appreciate things in iskcon so much more if I could just bring my family (you all and GM). Otherwise, I'd just rather avoid these things. Cheers for unity in diversity!
Agni and I both invited Radhanath Swami to Audarya and he said he would love to come, but he is going back to India soon.
There will likely be some links to kirtans that I will post when it becomes available.
thanks for writing such an extensive report!!
Syamasundara - June 22, 2009 11:48 pm
Hopefully there will be youtube videos about the whole day.
Atmananda Dasa - June 24, 2009 2:02 am
just got back from the festival. I will post a youtube with my videos soon.
Atmananda Dasa - June 24, 2009 2:07 am
Iskcon news site speaks about the 24 hour kirtan and nicely clarifies Agni's presence... Excerpt:http://news.iskcon.com/node/2096/2009-06-2..._virginia_hills
Looks like the article has now been edited, see new text as follows:
Atmananda Dasa - June 24, 2009 2:15 am
Iskcon news site speaks about the 24 hour kirtan and nicely clarifies Agni's presence... Excerpt:http://news.iskcon.com/node/2096/2009-06-2..._virginia_hills
Looks like the article has now been edited, see new text as follows:
Kirtan also has the power to heal and to bring people together. Agnideva Dasa, a disciple of Srila Prabhupada and one of the original kirtan masters since the 1970s will sing at the 24 Hour Kirtan Festival. As Gaura Vani says, “The one thing we can all agree on is our goal of chanting Krishna’s name constantly.”
Atmananda Dasa - June 24, 2009 2:41 am
how come ISKCON people invited him in spite of his affiliation with GM?some positive signs?
My godbrother, Nitai (one of the co-organizers of the festival), came to visit me during Swami's visit to NC. He told me that he was trying to get Agnideva prabhu to come to the festival. A week later he called me to tell me that Agnideva prabhu agreed to come.
Atmananda Dasa - June 24, 2009 2:48 am
When I mentioned Swami's name to my godbrother, Caitanya, who runs a preaching center in Pittsburgh, he immediately erupted with appreciation of Swami. "Tripurari Swami is great!... Amazing... You're so lucky to have his good sanga".
When I mentioned Swami to my godbrother Hari Bhakta, he told me how much he appreciated Swami for many years, how he had visited Audarya and how he would love to have Swami come to New Vrindavan for the whole of Kartik to relish his Krishna katha.
When I told my gurudeva, Radhanath Swami, about how Swami visits NC, we have had the opportunity to render some service, visited Audarya and occasionally communicate with Swami by e mail, he gave his glowing approval and encouragement.
Atmananda Dasa - June 24, 2009 2:53 am
Here is a video of some words about agnideva prabhu at a kirtan festival in Pittsbugh's schinley plaza. I only got about half of each persons speech. The first speaker is my godbrother caitanya, who organized the progam. The second is gauravani, who is from DC, second generation devotee. I'll post more videos later.
Atmananda Dasa - June 24, 2009 2:57 am
RNS is also a GBC member.
Nitaisundara Das - June 24, 2009 5:18 am
Looks like the article has now been edited, see new text as follows:
Kirtan also has the power to heal and to bring people together. Agnideva Dasa, a disciple of Srila Prabhupada and one of the original kirtan masters since the 1970s will sing at the 24 Hour Kirtan Festival. As Gaura Vani says, “The one thing we can all agree on is our goal of chanting Krishna’s name constantly.”
Typical....I thought that might happen. 
Gaura-Vijaya Das - June 24, 2009 5:29 am
Funny thing is, I think the majority of iskcon devotees are mature enough to understand and deal with difference and be able to appreciate diversity without jumping the iskcon ship, but the GBC are like old cranky over-protective parents afraid to let the children grow up. I only think this small step of inviting Agni to come was possible because Radhanath Swami was the only iskcon leader around, and he is very respectful of GM. That character spreads down to many of his disciples.
RNS is also a GBC member.
Yes but the strongest voices in GBC are from members who are very conservative and hence remove Tripurari Swami's name from the website.
Syamasundara - June 24, 2009 1:07 pm
Typical....I thought that might happen.
Yuck. 
Madan Gopal Das - June 24, 2009 1:43 pm
I wrote the following comment to the article. Very disappointing that truth can't come out in media:
Just wondering why this article was edited from this original "Agnideva Dasa, a disciple of Srila Prabhupada and one of the original kirtan masters since the 1970s, has long served outside of ISKCON with Tripurari Swami—yet this year, he will sing at the 24 Hour Kirtan Festival." - to remove Tripurari Swami's name. The new edited version kind of kills the topic sentence of the paragraph, "Kirtan also has the power to heal and to bring people together."
Madan Gopal Das - June 24, 2009 1:58 pm
I had a dream the other night just after returning from the 24 hour kirtan, which I am taking as an instruction from the lord to write several GBC's, including Radhanath Swami (because he will remember me) to say that it is time to move beyond the old divisions and value sanga over sectarianism. They don't need to invite GM back to iskcon or anything; it wouldn't work for either group, but the suspicion and fear and criticism based on rumor just has to stop. I just feel I have to do it, for myself if no one else.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - June 24, 2009 6:53 pm
I had a dream the other night just after returning from the 24 hour kirtan, which I am taking as an instruction from the lord to write several GBC's, including Radhanath Swami (because he will remember me) to say that it is time to move beyond the old divisions and value sanga over sectarianism. They don't need to invite GM back to iskcon or anything; it wouldn't work for either group, but the suspicion and fear and criticism based on rumor just has to stop. I just feel I have to do it, for myself if no one else.
I am fully with you brother.
Atmananda Dasa - June 24, 2009 8:15 pm
I wrote the following comment to the article. Very disappointing that truth can't come out in media:
I wrote a very similar comment. We'll see if they actually respond or publish the comments. They update on Saturdays.
Atmananda Dasa - June 24, 2009 9:35 pm
I had a dream the other night just after returning from the 24 hour kirtan, which I am taking as an instruction from the lord to write several GBC's, including Radhanath Swami (because he will remember me) to say that it is time to move beyond the old divisions and value sanga over sectarianism. They don't need to invite GM back to iskcon or anything; it wouldn't work for either group, but the suspicion and fear and criticism based on rumor just has to stop. I just feel I have to do it, for myself if no one else.
I'm with you. I can help you to get the letter to Radhanath Swami.
I thought I might also mention that when I was on Vrindavan yathra with RNS in 04 we met Paramadvaiti Swami at Govinda kunda. Radhanath Swami actually invited him to speak to the yathra, about 2,000 devotees at that time. Paramadvaiti Swami gave a nice talk for about 15 minutes. Then he and RNS sat down for lunch together.
During Paramadvaiti Swami's talk he made the statement that "...this is all the prasadam of Srila Prabhpuada (ACBSP)...", referring to Vrindavan and the fact that we were all having this wonderful experience here to be in the holy dham. The next stop on the yathra was Uddhava kunda. Malati prabhu spoke. She said, "...higher than taking the prasadam of Srila Prabhupada is serving the mission of Srila Prabhupada..."
After this experience I have come to the conclusion that I am not a follower of any and all of Srila Prabhupada's disciples. I am only a follower of those who are exemplary in their qualities and possessing a good understanding of the sastra, otherwise, I respect from a distance. Malati spoke for herself. She did not convey the same understanding that RNS had exemplified just one hour before. In fact, it appeared to me to be quite the opposite.
Babhru Das - June 24, 2009 10:34 pm
During Paramadvaiti Swami's talk he made the statement that "...this is all the prasadam of Srila Prabhpuada (ACBSP)...", referring to Vrindavan and the fact that we were all having this wonderful experience here to be in the holy dham. The next stop on the yathra was Uddhava kunda. Malati prabhu spoke. She said, "...higher than taking the prasadam of Srila Prabhupada is serving the mission of Srila Prabhupada..."After this experience I have come to the conclusion that I am not a follower of any and all of Srila Prabhupada's disciples. I am only a follower of those who are exemplary in their qualities and possessing a good understanding of the sastra, otherwise, I respect from a distance. Malati spoke for herself. She did not convey the same understanding that RNS had exemplified just one hour before. In fact, it appeared to me to be quite the opposite.
We should be a little discriminating about who we associate with, whose counsel we take. I'm happy that Malati is engaged in service once again, but, considering her past, it would serve her and the mission well if she were a little more humble, more wary of making such judgments of other devotees. After all, we know that those she's quick to disparage, such as Paramadvaiti Maharaja and our Swami, never flagged in their dedication to Srila Prabhupada's mission, even under the most unfavorable circumstances, including being forced out of his institution.
Bijaya Kumara Das - June 25, 2009 5:16 am
I wrote the following comment to the article. Very disappointing that truth can't come out in media:
I agree prabhu
Madan Gopal Das - June 28, 2009 5:02 pm
Some beautiful pics of Agni in kirtan rasa:
Madan Gopal Das - June 28, 2009 6:08 pm
and a
Babhru Das - June 28, 2009 7:21 pm
Along with Sr. Gopal and Chaitanya Bhagavat. Nice! Thanks.
Syama Gopala Dasa - June 29, 2009 5:27 pm
That video is awesome.
Madan Gopal Das - June 30, 2009 1:29 am
I am taking as an instruction from the lord to write several GBC's,
Here is my letter; any comments are appreciated.
Dear GBC member,
Please accept my dandavat pranam. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Sri Sri Guru-Gaurangau Jayatah!
Please allow me to introduce myself, simply for the purpose of giving some context for my request. My name is Madan Gopal das. I was associated with ISKCON since 1990 when I started coming around the Denver temple in the midst of the straight-edge phenomena. My generation, along with some of the second generation gurukuli's made up most of the monastic membership of U.S. temples for the whole of the 1990's. I was well read in Prabhupada's books (thanks to my association), took initiation in ISKCON, was a decent book distributor for many years and married a gurukuli; the daughter of Prabhupada's disciples Kamalini and Apurva prabhus. With time I gradually became alienated from ISKCON for reasons that are not important to detail here. My faith in Krsna bhakti being consistent, I soon found my way (or was guided by divine will) to the association of a vaisnava that could hold my faith and push me forward. He is Sripad Tripurari Swami. When I met him I was so thirsty for the bhakti-siddhanta, that I did not consider whether he was "in ISKCON", or out. He nourished me, tended to my faith, and most importantly represented the parampara that I had come to have faith in; that of Srila Prabhupada and the parivar of Bhaktivinoda Thakur. This brings me to the present...
I just returned from the 2009 New Vrindavan 24 hour kirtan. I went primarily to take the sanga of my mentor and long-time kirtan hero Agnideva prabhu. He has also "left ISKCON" long ago and faithfully supported, served and associated with Tripurari Swami ever since. He has been by his side practically since the time Maharaj's association with Sripad B.R. Sridar Dev Goswami caused his exit from Prabhupada's movement.
I was grateful that someone (one of Radhanath Swami's disciples) who organizes the 24 hour kirtan event saw through sectarian boundaries and made a loving gesture beyond the lines of missions to the heart of our process; giving Agnideva two slots in the kirtan. I was by Agnideva's side for most of the 24 hours and I saw the enthusiasm of 1st and 2nd generation devotees alike, one after another, as they appreciated Agnideva's presence and long lost association. Several asked for his participation in future events. Just after the event an ISKCON news site published these words as part of a report on the event: "Kirtan also has the power to heal and to bring people together. Agnideva Dasa, a disciple of Srila Prabhupada and one of the original kirtan masters since the 1970s, has long served outside of ISKCON with Tripurari Swami—yet this year, he will sing at the 24 Hour Kirtan Festival." After one day of publication, the article was edited to remove Tripurari Swami's name and therefore the implication that Agnideva is associated with him.
The only disappointment I had from the 24 hour kirtan was the lack of acknowledgement of Agnideva's mentor and friend, Tripurari Swami and the awareness I have that Maharaj would not be invited to a similar event. I have contemplated writing this letter for many years, but seeing the persistent division in my personal experiences with ISKCON, I have resisted. Now, after witnessing the accomodating spirit of Sripad Radhanath Swami and the second generation devotees, I have some hope that our two missions can work in a cooperative spirit.
Over the past several years there have been a few attempts to resolve some of the differences between Tripurari Swami's mission and ISKCON. Pardon my bias, but it does not seem to be a priority amongst the ISKCON leadership. I would hope that there would be some urgency in resolving conflict in relationship amongst Vaisnavas, what to speak of godbrothers, and that less important services like building temples, making new devotees and having meetings would be relegated to their proper priority.
Tripurari Swami has always had an open door policy at his asrama's for any Gaudiya Vaisnavas. He is not asking for it, but he has not received anything close to this same treatment in the 25 years he has served outside of ISKCON. He is continually suspected by ISKCON devotees of being a guru-tyagi, giving up the association of Srila Prabhupada. I repeatedly encounter ISKCON devotees who fear hearing from him simply because of his non-affiliation with ISKCON, or worse, perpetuate unfounded rumors about his character. I also know many many devotees 1st and 2nd generation who when they get beyond the spiritual racism surrounding Maharaj and actually hear from him, find great inspiration for their spiritual practice and can't understand why he continues to receive such a bad reputation.
My request is simple. Let this opportunity for improved relationship with Tripurari Swami not wait until the next life. Let us do something about it now! We are all getting older and many devotees have already gone to another destination, giving up the relationships of this life. Tripurari Swami is your godbrother. He served faithfully with many of you in the preaching mission of ISKCON and pleased Srila Prabhupad very much by his service. This cannot be denied. After Prabhupad's passing and the turmoil of the 80's, Maharaj did what is very common these days in ISKCON and what is recommended throughout Gaudiya siddhanta; he took siksa from a senior, pure devotee - B.R. Sridhar Maharaj. But this is old news! What Maharaj has done with the siksa he received from Sridhar Maharaj is evidenced in all of his service, writing and preaching throughout all of these years. I am not aware of any philosophy that Maharaj could be considered "deviant" in, though his mission has developed differently than the ISKCON standard to which most are accustomed. My realization and experience (the latest being the 24 hour kirtan) is that most of the 2nd generation devotees along with a selection of 1st generation leaders do not care for the politics of the past. They, we, want to see a new appreciation for our Gaudiya Vaisnava peers and family. I'm not asking for ISKCON to invite Tripurari Swami back "into the fold". It is apparent to me that the two missions have grown apart and developed as their own representatives of Srila Prabhupad. However, I beg that some officially endorsed announcement be made that ISKCON devotees should recognize and respect Tripurari Swami as they would any other senior sannyasi, that he has not deviated from the service of Srila Prabhupada, and that he is welcome in ISKCON temples. I think that would be a start towards repair of a long disregarded yet vitally important family relationship. In sincere humility, I beg you to consider my request and to respond to me or to Tripurari Maharaj soon.
daso 'smi,
Madan Gopal das
Bijaya Kumara Das - June 30, 2009 5:34 am
Here is my letter; any comments are appreciated.
Dear GBC member,
Please accept my dandavat pranam. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. Sri Sri Guru-Gaurangau Jayatah!
Please allow me to introduce myself, simply for the purpose of giving some context for my request. My name is Madan Gopal das. I was associated with ISKCON since 1990 when I started coming around the Denver temple in the midst of the straight-edge phenomena. My generation, along with some of the second generation gurukuli's made up most of the monastic membership of U.S. temples for the whole of the 1990's. I was well read in Prabhupada's books (thanks to my association), took initiation in ISKCON, was a decent book distributor for many years and married a gurukuli; the daughter of Prabhupada's disciples Kamalini and Apurva prabhus. With time I gradually became alienated from ISKCON for reasons that are not important to detail here. My faith in Krsna bhakti being consistent, I soon found my way (or was guided by divine will) to the association of a vaisnava that could hold my faith and push me forward. He is Sripad Tripurari Swami. When I met him I was so thirsty for the bhakti-siddhanta, that I did not consider whether he was "in ISKCON", or out. He nourished me, tended to my faith, and most importantly represented the parampara that I had come to have faith in; that of Srila Prabhupada and the parivar of Bhaktivinoda Thakur. This brings me to the present...
I just returned from the 2009 New Vrindavan 24 hour kirtan. I went primarily to take the sanga of my mentor and long-time kirtan hero Agnideva prabhu. He has also "left ISKCON" long ago and faithfully supported, served and associated with Tripurari Swami ever since. He has been by his side practically since the time Maharaj's association with Sripad B.R. Sridar Dev Goswami caused his exit from Prabhupada's movement.
I was grateful that someone (one of Radhanath Swami's disciples) who organizes the 24 hour kirtan event saw through sectarian boundaries and made a loving gesture beyond the lines of missions to the heart of our process; giving Agnideva two slots in the kirtan. I was by Agnideva's side for most of the 24 hours and I saw the enthusiasm of 1st and 2nd generation devotees alike, one after another, as they appreciated Agnideva's presence and long lost association. Several asked for his participation in future events. Just after the event an ISKCON news site published these words as part of a report on the event: "Kirtan also has the power to heal and to bring people together. Agnideva Dasa, a disciple of Srila Prabhupada and one of the original kirtan masters since the 1970s, has long served outside of ISKCON with Tripurari Swami—yet this year, he will sing at the 24 Hour Kirtan Festival." After one day of publication, the article was edited to remove Tripurari Swami's name and therefore the implication that Agnideva is associated with him.
The only disappointment I had from the 24 hour kirtan was the lack of acknowledgement of Agnideva's mentor and friend, Tripurari Swami and the awareness I have that Maharaj would not be invited to a similar event. I have contemplated writing this letter for many years, but seeing the persistent division in my personal experiences with ISKCON, I have resisted. Now, after witnessing the accomodating spirit of Sripad Radhanath Swami and the second generation devotees, I have some hope that our two missions can work in a cooperative spirit.
Over the past several years there have been a few attempts to resolve some of the differences between Tripurari Swami's mission and ISKCON. Pardon my bias, but it does not seem to be a priority amongst the ISKCON leadership. I would hope that there would be some urgency in resolving conflict in relationship amongst Vaisnavas, what to speak of godbrothers, and that less important services like building temples, making new devotees and having meetings would be relegated to their proper priority.
Tripurari Swami has always had an open door policy at his asrama's for any Gaudiya Vaisnavas. He is not asking for it, but he has not received anything close to this same treatment in the 25 years he has served outside of ISKCON. He is continually suspected by ISKCON devotees of being a guru-tyagi, giving up the association of Srila Prabhupada. I repeatedly encounter ISKCON devotees who fear hearing from him simply because of his non-affiliation with ISKCON, or worse, perpetuate unfounded rumors about his character. I also know many many devotees 1st and 2nd generation who when they get beyond the spiritual racism surrounding Maharaj and actually hear from him, find great inspiration for their spiritual practice and can't understand why he continues to receive such a bad reputation.
My request is simple. Let this opportunity for improved relationship with Tripurari Swami not wait until the next life. Let us do something about it now! We are all getting older and many devotees have already gone to another destination, giving up the relationships of this life. Tripurari Swami is your godbrother. He served faithfully with many of you in the preaching mission of ISKCON and pleased Srila Prabhupad very much by his service. This cannot be denied. After Prabhupad's passing and the turmoil of the 80's, Maharaj did what is very common these days in ISKCON and what is recommended throughout Gaudiya siddhanta; he took siksa from a senior, pure devotee - B.R. Sridhar Maharaj. But this is old news! What Maharaj has done with the siksa he received from Sridhar Maharaj is evidenced in all of his service, writing and preaching throughout all of these years. I am not aware of any philosophy that Maharaj could be considered "deviant" in, though his mission has developed differently than the ISKCON standard to which most are accustomed. My realization and experience (the latest being the 24 hour kirtan) is that most of the 2nd generation devotees along with a selection of 1st generation leaders do not care for the politics of the past. They, we, want to see a new appreciation for our Gaudiya Vaisnava peers and family. I'm not asking for ISKCON to invite Tripurari Swami back "into the fold". It is apparent to me that the two missions have grown apart and developed as their own representatives of Srila Prabhupad. However, I beg that some officially endorsed announcement be made that ISKCON devotees should recognize and respect Tripurari Swami as they would any other senior sannyasi, that he has not deviated from the service of Srila Prabhupada, and that he is welcome in ISKCON temples. I think that would be a start towards repair of a long disregarded yet vitally important family relationship. In sincere humility, I beg you to consider my request and to respond to me or to Tripurari Maharaj soon.
daso 'smi,
Madan Gopal das
nice approach
Prahlad Das - June 30, 2009 2:31 pm
I second that. Well written. Good luck with this.
Madan Gopal Das - June 30, 2009 3:26 pm
Citta Hari Dasa - June 30, 2009 4:46 pm
Nice work Madan. It never hurts to ask, but I doubt they will honor your request with with anything more than an apologetic letter. I don't see an official endorsement of GM coming about anytime soon, even if some may think he's okay behind closed doors.
It amazes me somewhat (though it shouldn't) that Agni's longtime affiliation with GM can be ignored when it's just kirtana they want while the person who has inspired him is not allowed to show up. This has been their m. o. for years yet it always strikes me as stupid, shortsighted, and two-faced.
Nitaisundara Das - July 1, 2009 1:48 am
I doubt they will honor your request with with anything more than an apologetic letter.
My personal guess would be complete silence.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - July 1, 2009 2:02 am
I think it is still good to keep on trying even if the other side is deaf. Madan, it is a good attempt.
Madan Gopal Das - July 1, 2009 2:25 am
Yea, as I said, I feel a need to do this for myself. I'm not holding onto expectations of anything happening, but at least I can know for myself that I've said my peace to the ISKCON leadership that the status quo is just not right. I sent it tonight to a bunch of GBC's and some people who were involved in previous mediation attempts with GM. Whatever happens, let it be.
Babhru Das - July 1, 2009 12:49 pm
I'm happy--and proud--to see you take this step. Perhaps those of us who have ties to ISKCON, or close relationships with leaders in ISKCON, should follow your lead.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - July 1, 2009 2:07 pm
GM did not comment on this post. I do not know what he thinks about this.
Syamasundara - July 1, 2009 2:30 pm
Well, I wouldn't expect him to seek self-recognition and/or comment on it, but I think any guru would bless and second the efforts of a disciple who is trying to glorify his guru, or at least not allow further disregard from others. It's good for the disciple and it does good to the "disregarders".
As to the reaction of the GBC, we probably all have the same expectations, which are quite low, but it's good to voice the malcontent, so now they can decide to not address the issue, but not say that they weren't aware of it.
Atmananda Dasa - July 1, 2009 10:06 pm
jay madan!
If you do receive a favorable response from any GBC member, we might try getting that devotee on board to sponsor a resolution.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - July 2, 2009 1:25 pm
http://www.gauravani.com/2340-10-days-of-2...ecordings-day-6
The last two recordings are very good with Agnideva and RNS leading.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - July 2, 2009 6:10 pm
Here is a video of some words about agnideva prabhu at a kirtan festival in Pittsbugh's schinley plaza. I only got about half of each persons speech. The first speaker is my godbrother caitanya, who organized the progam. The second is gauravani, who is from DC, second generation devotee. I'll post more videos later.
It was wonderful to see Agnideva glorified so much. Do you have more videos like this atmananda?
Gaura-Vijaya Das - July 2, 2009 6:36 pm
Any updates Madan, you were about to post something.
Atmananda Dasa - July 3, 2009 2:46 am
It was wonderful to see Agnideva glorified so much. Do you have more videos like this atmananda?
no... i was just filming this with my camera... i really only caught half of it... there was more... i'm sure its all out there somewhere, a lot of people were filming that day. my plan is to upload some more footage onto youtube in a couple days
Madan Gopal Das - July 3, 2009 1:23 pm
Any updates Madan, you were about to post something.
Update is that the leaders I corresponded with directed any of my suggestions back to the mediation with ISKCON Resolve and they want it to go that route. They say that they are working towards another round of mediation, but to me it just speaks to the lack of motivation to make real change - the last mediation was 2 years ago! Compare that with the action of a disciple of Radhanath Swami inviting Agnideva to the 24 hour kirtan without consideration of politics. Grass roots, people powered change is where it's at.
Also, ISKCON Resolve is working from the idea that GM's side has also contributed to problems with the relationship. 
We see it differently. They want to preserve ISKCON's "institutional integrity", and I'm talking about the importance of spiritual relationships as being higher priority. I feel like I tried from a compromising angle and they just have to do it their way. I personally feel that will take forever and not influence the thinking of ISKCON masses any time soon. In short, I hit a dead end. Ball is in their court, and they want it that way.
For those of you who have ISKCON relations/involvement, I would only suggest that as much as you feel inclined you can influence your association positively about GM. Don't hold your breath for it coming from the top.
p.s. In order to guard against negatively influencing any mediation effort, my personal opinions here should not be repeated.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - July 3, 2009 3:52 pm
Update is that the leaders I corresponded with directed any of my suggestions back to the mediation with ISKCON Resolve and they want it to go that route. They say that they are working towards another round of mediation, but to me it just speaks to the lack of motivation to make real change - the last mediation was 2 years ago! Compare that with the action of a disciple of Radhanath Swami inviting Agnideva to the 24 hour kirtan without consideration of politics. Grass roots, people powered change is where it's at.Also, ISKCON Resolve is working from the idea that GM's side has also contributed to problems with the relationship.
For those of you who have ISKCON relations/involvement, I would only suggest that as much as you feel inclined you can influence your association positively about GM. Don't hold your breath for it coming from the top.
p.s. In order to guard against negatively influencing any mediation effort, my personal opinions here should not be repeated.
Who replied HDG and Ravindra Svarupa prabhu.
Madan Gopal Das - July 3, 2009 4:27 pm
Only replies were from Brahma-tirtha (in charge of the mediation) and BKG. I asked BKG to propose to the GBC the release of a statement to ISKCON devotees like this:
1. Tripurari Maharaj was asked to leave ISKCON in the 80's when there was much confusion about guru-tattva.
2. That Tripurari Maharaj has not given up the service of his (and ISKCON's) beloved gurudeva A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, despite serving outside of ISKCON for many years.
3. That the ISKCON leadership has previously corrected misunderstandings about B.R. Sridhar Maharaj and advised ISKCON devotees to avoid criticism of him, yet has failed to address the ramifications of excommunication of many disciples of Prabhupada who sought shelter at Sridhar Maharaj's feet.
4. That these devotees, including Tripurari Maharaj should be respected as Prabhupada's followers, should not be mistreated, and are welcome at ISKCON's temples and gatherings as family.
5. That mediation efforts are underway in an attempt to discuss how missions like Tripurari Maharaj's can work cooperatively with ISKCON.
BKG's response was:
The GBC members are aware of the mediation efforts, however in the interest of coming to a resolution as quickly as possible that is a win-win for all the parties concerned (which is also my interest) the process of mediation which Brahma Tirtha Prabhu is involved in will be the most effective.
My experience is that when we open something like this to the devotees in general, there will be a lot of loud voices that would tend to slow things down or even stop the important on-going process.
The fact is that when "devotees in general" take it into their own hands, things move much quicker. How it could get any slower than a meeting every 2+ years, I don't know. Om Tat Sat... thanks a lot?
Syamasundara - July 3, 2009 5:54 pm
Who's BKG?
Madan Gopal Das - July 3, 2009 6:13 pm
Who's BKG?
Bir Krsna Goswami
Just also received a couple replies from Guru Prasad Swami who is on the Vaisnava Relations Committee of the GBC.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - July 3, 2009 6:45 pm
Bir Krsna Goswami
Just also received a couple replies from Guru Prasad Swami who is on the Vaisnava Relations Committee of the GBC.
What did he say?
Madan Gopal Das - July 3, 2009 6:56 pm
not much different. we are different societies (agreed), both sides have contributed to conflict, and it will take time. he offered to call me to discuss.
Syamasundara - July 3, 2009 7:43 pm
Both sides? When? What have we done?
Don't tell me they think in terms of "Us (Iskcon) and those who joined the gaudiya math" where we are all lumped in. :Rolling Eyes:
Babhru Das - July 3, 2009 11:20 pm
Update is that the leaders I corresponded with directed any of my suggestions back to the mediation with ISKCON Resolve and they want it to go that route. They say that they are working towards another round of mediation, but to me it just speaks to the lack of motivation to make real change - the last mediation was 2 years ago! Compare that with the action of a disciple of Radhanath Swami inviting Agnideva to the 24 hour kirtan without consideration of politics. Grass roots, people powered change is where it's at.
I agree. I was asked by a couple of people in Alachua, "What's Agni doing there (NV)?" I just smiled and replied, "Gaura invited him. He's apparently not very impressed by ISKCON's need to marginalize us." The was to do it is one on one, persistently and in good spirits.
And I think this should be our approach. ISKCON's institutional integrity has suffered at the hands of ISKCON's leaders, not those who found Srila Sridhara Maharaja to be better association than . . . well, you supply names according to your own experience.Also, ISKCON Resolve is working from the idea that GM's side has also contributed to problems with the relationship. :Rolling Eyes: We see it differently. They want to preserve ISKCON's "institutional integrity", and I'm talking about the importance of spiritual relationships as being higher priority.
I feel like I tried from a compromising angle and they just have to do it their way. I personally feel that will take forever and not influence the thinking of ISKCON masses any time soon. In short, I hit a dead end. Ball is in their court, and they want it that way.
And I'm afraid you're probably right. When I've asked about it (Brahmatirtha and HdG), the responses I've gotten were very polite and devoid of any sense of urgency.
Well said.For those of you who have ISKCON relations/involvement, I would only suggest that as much as you feel inclined you can influence your association positively about GM. Don't hold your breath for it coming from the top.
p.s. In order to guard against negatively influencing any mediation effort, my personal opinions here should not be repeated.
Madan, I'd suggest editing post #49 to boldface this sentence.
Babhru Das - July 3, 2009 11:22 pm
Both sides? When? What have we done?
Don't tell me they think in terms of "Us (Iskcon) and those who joined the gaudiya math" where we are all lumped in. :Rolling Eyes:
That seems to be pretty much where too many of them are at. All they've really heard are versions very much like Trivikrama Swami's.
Atmananda Dasa - July 4, 2009 12:18 am
ughhh!!!!!!!! why bother?! its the same BS every time. I will just do the same as everybody else in ISKCON and entirely ignore the GBC. Honestly, be as into whatever you are into as you want to be, no-one is going to kick you out of ISKCON, no-one is going to call you on it and if they do, it will only be their loss and vaisnavs will give you their full support. Dive deep in the nectar of sadhu-sanga and distribute it freely.
Atmananda Dasa - July 4, 2009 1:00 am
If the GBC has been around for this long and so much time has past and they continue to politely stonewall the issue, I think its a good bet that they will take their opinions with them to their grave... just forget it... Now, take guidance from the self-effulgent acarya in your life.
Bijaya Kumara Das - July 4, 2009 1:04 am
ughhh!!!!!!!! why bother?! its the same BS every time. I will just do the same as everybody else in ISKCON and entirely ignore the GBC. Honestly, be as into whatever you are into as you want to be, no-one is going to kick you out of ISKCON, no-one is going to call you on it and if they do, it will only be their loss and vaisnavs will give you their full support. Dive deep in the nectar of sadhu-sanga and distribute it freely.
agreed
follow the leader
Guru maharaja has addressed this for years and is very cordial to them so we kill them with kindness, kirtan
they fear his leadership but bhakti goes where it wants and it is flowing His way
Babhru Das - July 4, 2009 1:28 am
ughhh!!!!!!!! why bother?! its the same BS every time. I will just do the same as everybody else in ISKCON and entirely ignore the GBC. Honestly, be as into whatever you are into as you want to be, no-one is going to kick you out of ISKCON, no-one is going to call you on it and if they do, it will only be their loss and vaisnavs will give you their full support. Dive deep in the nectar of sadhu-sanga and distribute it freely.
I think this also makes a lot of sense. What happened in Alachua a little earlier this year is that, after "O My Friend!" came out, there was maneuvering behind my back to get me off the class list. When others found out about it, they threw a bit of a fit. I ended up speaking with the local GBC about it. He seemed mainly concerned with my association with GM and my plans after leaving family life. I was perfectly straightforward with him. I told him that, although I'm not anti-ISKCON, our Swami is the devotee who has inspired me over the last ten years, that others were nice but never tried to press me beyond my comfort zone. I said that if taking sannyasa from GM meant no more visits to ISKCON temples, I was fine with that. Swami kept me fully engaged when I was staying with him, and I know there's more to do than I'll have time for over the next 20 years or so. At the end of the talk, Tamohara told me that the temple's board would end up doing whatever he decided. They put me back on the list very quickly. So, if we stand on principle, there will at least be no loss on our side.
In the meantime, if there is something we can do, let's take the trouble to pursue that, too--as long as it doesn't take away from our service.
Babhru Das - July 4, 2009 5:51 am
I just listened to NPR's annual reading of the Declaration of Independence. As a descendant of one of the signers of both the Declaration and the Constitution, I find myself moved by the boldness of this declaration, especially the end: "And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor."
Just after listening to this and reflecting on that pledge, I received an email from Paradhyeya das, who apparently represents ISKCON in Sacramento, where we're visiting for a few days to care for my mother in law. Here's part of what he wrote: "I'm delighted that you will be coming on Sunday, would it be too much to ask you to give the talk to our congregation? generally about 15 to 25 show up, 3 or 4 initiated devotees and all the others listen like sponges eager to soak up Krishna's teachings, and as a special treat for us, if you agree ,you could read a few exerpts from Oh My Friend. If you have brought any extra copies with you it would be an opportunity to sell some too."
Now, we don't have any copies to sell yet, but Madan and Atmananda's revolutionary spirit, and that of my ancestors, moves me to set aside my "Aw, shucks" reticence and accept his invitation. Perhaps I'll focus on Srila Prabhupada's "Prayer to the Lotus Feet of Krishna," along with Srila Sridhara Maharaja's and our Swami's discussions of its import. And, of course, I'll no doubt invite my audience to read the whole thing themselves at cowdust.us, as well as check out the Harmonist.
Prema-bhakti - July 4, 2009 12:43 pm
Update is that the leaders I corresponded with directed any of my suggestions back to the mediation with ISKCON Resolve and they want it to go that route. They say that they are working towards another round of mediation, but to me it just speaks to the lack of motivation to make real change - the last mediation was 2 years ago! Compare that with the action of a disciple of Radhanath Swami inviting Agnideva to the 24 hour kirtan without consideration of politics. Grass roots, people powered change is where it's at.Also, ISKCON Resolve is working from the idea that GM's side has also contributed to problems with the relationship. :Rolling Eyes: We see it differently. They want to preserve ISKCON's "institutional integrity", and I'm talking about the importance of spiritual relationships as being higher priority. I feel like I tried from a compromising angle and they just have to do it their way. I personally feel that will take forever and not influence the thinking of ISKCON masses any time soon. In short, I hit a dead end. Ball is in their court, and they want it that way.
For those of you who have ISKCON relations/involvement, I would only suggest that as much as you feel inclined you can influence your association positively about GM. Don't hold your breath for it coming from the top.
p.s. In order to guard against negatively influencing any mediation effort, my personal opinions here should not be repeated.
Madanji,
I think you wrote a very reasonable and heartfelt letter. Unfortunately, this approach doesn't seem to penetrate the hearts of those it should yet I think it is written in a manner that there will be some affect even if just somewhere in the recesses of the recipients' minds they can't help but recognize that GM has inspired and trained an intelligent, thoughtful person. You needn't feel discouraged.
I think we all have a duty to be diligent in addressing these issues as they arise and to be forthright in our affiliations and as others have already posted continue to go on with the dynamic service presented before us by GM and the Bhaktivinode parivar.
Some devotees affiliated with our sanga may feel staying undercover 
is beneficial for our mission or perhaps they may feel the need to sit on the fence between our mission and ISKCON and serve as some kind of liaisons. I strongly feel this is not an affective path to change. It is obvious from our experiences as a mission for years and years that the GBC, etc., are too stubborn, misinformed and bureaucratic to have much success going that route. Time is short. Take it from Harvey, MLK, etc., our own Madan Gopal, :He He: Grass roots is where it is at. Let them know who and where we are. We are here ISKCON, get used to it.
Citta Hari Dasa - July 4, 2009 4:37 pm
The mediation route is obviously painfully slow and unproductive. I think they realize that GM is not going to kowtow to GBC mandate and so mediation with him is not high on the priority list. And ultimately my guess of what will come of it will be nothing more than some insipid, limp resolution that the vast majority of devotees will never bother to read. I don't see the welcome mat being extended for GM at all Iskcon temples any time soon. But as Madan said, it was a good exercise. If there is enough pressure from the grass roots then something might start to filter upwards.
Vrindavandas - July 4, 2009 5:29 pm
Here are a couple of things I want to point out after reading this board discussion. I know I have made them before and have been largely ignored, so this is the last time I will bring this up. If anyone wants to address these points with the facts that would be great, otherwise there is not much more to be said...
1. From my understanding an agreement was made between the mediators and Guru Maharaja to put some addition to the swami.org website for clarifications. When this was done, the mediation would move forward. To date, it is my understanding that whatever that addition to the website was supposed to be, it still has not been done, therefore things are somewhat stagnated. I was told "The ball is in Tripurari Maharaja's court"
2. Guru Maharaja is not "banned" from ISKCON temples. No one is going to turn him away if he shows up for a program or darshan. Many temples and GBCs may not feel comfortable having him give class, because he is not an official member of ISKCON. If you ask the average temple devotee/congregation member who Tripurari Swami is, many probably don't know. If he showed up somewhere, they would just see him as another sannyasi. Having Guru Maharaja give class at an ISKCON temple is up to the local authorities and would depend on the relationship they have with him.
3. The main sticking point from what I see is one thing that people seem to gloss over- the picture of Sridhar Maharaja on a temple altar. ISKCON temples have a common parampara altar that can be found on any of their altars around the world. It is rather confusing for many devotees to see a picture of someone else between Prabhupada and Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati on an altar. We can argue the guru tattva issue till the cows come home, however the issue remains that Prabhpada established the altar worship in a certain way and this is the custom that ISKCON follows. There is nothing wrong with this custom, it was not Prabhupada's intention to put Sridhar Maharaja on the altar of ISKCON temples. If that was his desire, he would have done so. Regardless of who Prabhupada had on his personal altar, he had a community altar established differently. In SCS Math, there is no picture of Prabhupada on any of their altars. Although I believe that without Prabhupada, know one really would have known about Sridhar Maharaja, they keep to their paramapara, even though Govinda Maharaja may say Prabhpada was his siksa guru. There are many devotees inside Iskcon who read Sridhar Maharaja's books and find his influence quite sound, even individuals who oppose having his books at ISKCON stores. But the fact remains that ISKCON is Prabhupada's institution, it is not a shared institution. No one cares about who has what on their personal altar. The issue gets sticky however, when you have a public altar with someone in addition to Prabhupada on it. I think from the ISKCON perspective, regardless of "tattva" it is a matter of etiquitte: if Prabhupada were alive today, would he be okay with ISKCON temples putting Sridhar Maharaja's picture on the altar?
4. The common agreement is service and sentiment for Prabhupada, therefore, this should be the focus not Sridhar Maharaja. Many devotees have other influences, including sadhus not in our lineage. At the end of the day however, the points and direction get settled centered around Prabhupada. There is nothing wrong with this, every institution does it. Antagonism does not make for harmony, and it is important in areas in conflict to think outside the box and seek common ground first.
The us against them mentality is getting rather old. There are plenty of ways for everyone to work together, the first suggestion would be to stop playing victim. Be proactive, build trust, go ask your local temple if you can wash some pots or do some service. Regardless of who likes or dislikes Guru Maharaja, you can find even within Iskcon or any organization for that matter, people who don't like other people in their own group.
Are there people who feel threatened by Guru Maharaja? Yes. Is he a charismatic and charming figure? Yes. Is his philosophy sound? Yes. Does he have the potential to influence away man power? Yes. Does the same conflict occur within the institution amongst godbrothers? Yes.
I hope my point is made. Jaya Radhe
Audarya-lila Dasa - July 4, 2009 6:45 pm
Actually I'm not clear on exactly what your point is Vrndavana. Guru Maharaja has Sridhara Maharaja on his altar, as do all of his disciples - that is not going to change any more than who is on the altar in Iskcon temples. I don't see the issue there. Guru Maharaja is who he is due to those who have most influenced him and he is not going to pretend that the influence of Sridhara Maharaja means less than it does to him.
As far as the mediation goes, that is the first I have heard of an agreement to post something on Swami.org. What exactly was supposed to be posted? You say that Guru Maharaja agreed to something which he has not followed through with - I would like to know exactly what that is if you would be so kind.
If you think devotees in Guru Mahraja's sanga has an us versus them mentality you are quite mistaken. Devotees only speak from experience. The point in this thread has to do wtih editing out Guru Maharaja's name in connection with Agnideva.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - July 4, 2009 6:57 pm
I don't think GM has demanded that ISKCON put SM on the altar. So what is the problem on this point?
I think you have made a good attempt to list out grievances which ISKCON has against GM though most of them are based on superficial criterion.
Madan Gopal Das - July 4, 2009 7:39 pm
If anyone wants to address these points with the facts that would be great.
Thank you for making your points. I don't think you have been ignored, I think that you are just treated as an individual with your own experience and maybe there aren't too many people here sharing your experience that can side with you. Many people here including myself don't have the same experience and we voice that. Here are some facts I would like to address your points with.
1. You speak from your subjective experience and I don't find it personally inspiring to have you tell me to quit being a victim and go wash pots. You know what, I'm happy for you that you have found a home on the border between ISKCON and GM's mission. My experience, which is also a real one is different. I have been fasting from ISKCON for some time now but in the past month I have gone to two ISKCON events; Panihati in Atlanta and the 24 hour kirtan. In this short time I have had two encounters with ISKCON devotees who have attacked GM's character. Then there is the incident of ISKCON news, run by the head of ISKCON communications/GBC, editing their "news" to try to get away with denying GM's existence. The GBC for the ISKCON temple down the street from me said he was "shocked" by this. This same GBC has for years played very diplomatic politics with me whenever GM comes to visit here. Yes, GM has not been "allowed" to come to this temple more than once. Then he has been allowed, only when it was "safe", and there weren't any opportunities for him to speak or anything dangerous like that. When my wife and I were initiated by GM this GBC gave a Bhagavatam class delineating the differences between what Prabhupada wanted and what happened at the initiation, plus a host of other little points of difference. My wife went through years of repairing social relationships because of society consciousness and blind following taking precedence over relationship. The list of incidents wherein our faith in GM was criticized is too FREAKIN' long to detail, but I'll tell you what - it got me to the point where the disturbance I felt from serving in an ISKCON temple where my Guru was not respected, what to speak of invited got to be too much. And so I fast from their sanga, and my spiritual life becomes healthy. Every once in a while I see some people in ISKCON with some spiritual vision, who have crawled out of society consciousness and I try to get them to influence others. Usually though, the fanaticism is too dense.
If the ball is in GM's court and he hasn't done anything, it means he doesn't agree with it.1. From my understanding an agreement was made between the mediators and Guru Maharaja to put some addition to the swami.org website for clarifications. "The ball is in Tripurari Maharaja's court"
2. Guru Maharaja is not "banned" from ISKCON temples. No one is going to turn him away if he shows up for a program or darshan. Many temples and GBCs may not feel comfortable having him give class, because he is not an official member of ISKCON. If you ask the average temple devotee/congregation member who Tripurari Swami is, many probably don't know. If he showed up somewhere, they would just see him as another sannyasi. Having Guru Maharaja give class at an ISKCON temple is up to the local authorities and would depend on the relationship they have with him.
I don't think there is ONE temple that local authorities have a relationship with GM that they would feel safe to ask him to give class. They would be blown out of the water by the GBC. Think Tukaram, prabhu...
How many sannyasis do you see "show up" for a program or darshan? Would you want GM to show up as just "another sannyasi"?? From what I've seen in 19 years of going to ISKCON temples is that people go completely goo-goo over any sannyasi and want them to give class, have their association, etc. What to speak of "showing up", the sannyasi is a much sought after item, a touchstone of spiritual wisdom. But not if you are a non-ISKCON sannyasi. And do you think our GM who carries such substance would "show up" because he needs something there? How about an invitation, a desire to see him, to have sadhu sanga, etc.?? I've said this before, but it is exactly the same as when I was in Denver and B.V. Puri Maharaj was in town and some people wanted him to come to the ISKCON temple. Badrinarayan had us all trained up military style that non-iskcon people are welcome to "come take darsana, offer them a seat, some water, maybe prasad - BUT NO CLASS", and basically show them the door. Now Puri Maharaj has passed away and they all glorify him after he's gone. It is materialism!!!
3. The main sticking point from what I see is one thing that people seem to gloss over- the picture of Sridhar Maharaja on a temple altar.
I said throughout all of my recent correspondence with leaders, that I don't expect or want GM to come back to ISKCON. He is a different "animal", and his mission has grown out of him differently than ISKCON. :Rolling Eyes: How he has become who he has become is divine though and ISKCON would make tremendous progress just by recognizing that simple fact. He had the association of a pure devotee after Prabhupada's passing, and he is most fortunate and blessed because of that. You must have heard him say that he does not feel that everyone has to accept Sridhar Maharaj. I know that he thinks all would benefit, but he's not forcing Sridhar Maharaj on ISKCON...
Again, this is another aspect of materialistic/society consciousness. ISKCON leaders need to bring ISKCON devotees to higher consciousness by showing them that it is okay if some people find faith in different ways than they have it all spelled out. Needing to have control, to keep ISKCON's devotees sheltered and free from those big scary doubts is what keeps it from progressing. In my latest correspondence with them they call it "maintaining institutional integrity". They are working from the mold of Narayan Maharaj, thinking that they must protect their flock from outsiders. Really all they need to do it educate their devotees. Help them learn a little diversity, that's all. Any ISKCON devotee/preacher/guru can come to GM's asrama and the devotees can hear from them and I don't think GM worries that we're all going to run away. Why? Because he educates us. He creates and nurtures our faith and we stay secure in that.
I don't care whether Sridhar Maharaj is on an ISKCON temple altar. I can respect their faith, is it too much to ask the same in return??
The rest of the points you make seem to come from the projection of if GM were back in ISKCON again, which everyone including the mediation team doesn't seem to think is desirable. What I think is desirable to come from the mediation is that ISKCON breaks down some of these barriers and educates it's devotees about who GM is, and that he is not bad for their spiritual health. Many many ISKCON devotees do follow the GBC party line on things like this - who is good and who is bad. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to think GM is bad, or to be suspicious of him, and they just need their own faith to be strengthened so that they can encounter someone from a different planet without freaking out!
You do know that there is an ISKCON planet in the spiritual world right? :He He:
Babhru Das - July 4, 2009 8:59 pm
If the ball is in GM's court and he hasn't done anything, it means he doesn't agree with it.
Although I've spoken with a couple of those involved in the mediation efforts, neither of them mentioned anything about the ball's being in GM's court. And if some see that as the case, and he doesn't accept it, or agree with it, I think we need to recognize that.
I've told the story of what happened in San Diego in July of 1999 (10 years ago) too many times. GM should have been welcomed, and someone should have approached me to suggest that Swami give class. Instead, afraid that I might ask him myself, the GBC personally instructed that I give class myself, or else. I was disappointed and embarrassed, but we were prepared for this to happen.I don't think there is ONE temple that local authorities have a relationship with GM that they would feel safe to ask him to give class. They would be blown out of the water by the GBC. Think Tukaram, prabhu...How many sannyasis do you see "show up" for a program or darshan? Would you want GM to show up as just "another sannyasi"?? From what I've seen in 19 years of going to ISKCON temples is that people go completely goo-goo over any sannyasi and want them to give class, have their association, etc. What to speak of "showing up", the sannyasi is a much sought after item, a touchstone of spiritual wisdom. But not if you are a non-ISKCON sannyasi. And do you think our GM who carries such substance would "show up" because he needs something there? How about an invitation, a desire to see him, to have sadhu sanga, etc.??
ISKCON leaders need to bring ISKCON devotees to higher consciousness by showing them that it is okay if some people find faith in different ways than they have it all spelled out. Needing to have control, to keep ISKCON's devotees sheltered and free from those big scary doubts is what keeps it from progressing. In my latest correspondence with them they call it "maintaining institutional integrity". They are working from the mold of Narayan Maharaj, thinking that they must protect their flock from outsiders. Really all they need to do it educate their devotees. Help them learn a little diversity, that's all. Any ISKCON devotee/preacher/guru can come to GM's asrama and the devotees can hear from them and I don't think GM worries that we're all going to run away. Why? Because he educates us. He creates and nurtures our faith and we stay secure in that.
Very well said. Thank you. They see anything they cannot control as a threat to this "institutional integrity," which has been corroded most by their own leaders. Their focus is control of resources, apparently, not any of the items Srila Prabhupada listed as the reasons for creating ISKCON.
What I think is desirable to come from the mediation is that ISKCON breaks down some of these barriers and educates it's devotees about who GM is, and that he is not bad for their spiritual health. Many many ISKCON devotees do follow the GBC party line on things like this - who is good and who is bad. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to think GM is bad, or to be suspicious of him, and they just need their own faith to be strengthened so that they can encounter someone from a different planet without freaking out!
Again, thanks.
Syamasundara - July 4, 2009 9:50 pm
Any ISKCON devotee/preacher/guru can come to GM's asrama and the devotees can hear from them and I don't think GM worries that we're all going to run away. Why? Because he educates us. He creates and nurtures our faith and we stay secure in that.
Amen.
As GM says, they suffer from lack of realized leadership; so, short of quality, they only have the quantity going for them, and they are right in fearing that in contact with even a little of GM's quality, many of them would just get attracted. Well, how about developing the same quality themselves? Everybody would remain where they are, and everyone would appreciate the other.
Prema-bhakti - July 4, 2009 9:53 pm
Thank you for making your points. I don't think you have been ignored, I think that you are just treated as an individual with your own experience and maybe there aren't too many people here sharing your experience that can side with you. Many people here including myself don't have the same experience and we voice that. Here are some facts I would like to address your points with.
1. You speak from your subjective experience and I don't find it personally inspiring to have you tell me to quit being a victim and go wash pots. You know what, I'm happy for you that you have found a home on the border between ISKCON and GM's mission. My experience, which is also a real one is different. I have been fasting from ISKCON for some time now but in the past month I have gone to two ISKCON events; Panihati in Atlanta and the 24 hour kirtan. In this short time I have had three encounters with ISKCON devotees who have attacked GM's character. Then there is the incident of ISKCON news, run by the head of ISKCON communications/GBC, editing their "news" to try to get away with denying GM's existence. The GBC for the ISKCON temple down the street from me said he was "shocked" by this. This same GBC has for years played very diplomatic politics with me whenever GM comes to visit here. Yes, GM has not been "allowed" to come to this temple more than once. Then he has been allowed, only when it was "safe", and there weren't any opportunities for him to speak or anything dangerous like that. When my wife and I were initiated by GM this GBC gave a Bhagavatam class delineating the differences between what Prabhupada wanted and what happened at the initiation, plus a host of other little points of difference. My wife went through years of repairing social relationships because of society consciousness and blind following taking precedence over relationship. The list of incidents wherein our faith in GM was criticized is too FREAKIN' long to detail, but I'll tell you what - it got me to the point where the disturbance I felt from serving in an ISKCON temple where my Guru was not respected, what to speak of invited got to be too much. And so I fast from their sanga, and my spiritual life becomes healthy. Every once in a while I see some people in ISKCON with some spiritual vision, who have crawled out of society consciousness and I try to get them to influence others. Usually though, the fanaticism is too dense.
If the ball is in GM's court and he hasn't done anything, it means he doesn't agree with it.
I don't think there is ONE temple that local authorities have a relationship with GM that they would feel safe to ask him to give class. They would be blown out of the water by the GBC. Think Tukaram, prabhu...
How many sannyasis do you see "show up" for a program or darshan? Would you want GM to show up as just "another sannyasi"?? From what I've seen in 19 years of going to ISKCON temples is that people go completely goo-goo over any sannyasi and want them to give class, have their association, etc. What to speak of "showing up", the sannyasi is a much sought after item, a touchstone of spiritual wisdom. But not if you are a non-ISKCON sannyasi. And do you think our GM who carries such substance would "show up" because he needs something there? How about an invitation, a desire to see him, to have sadhu sanga, etc.?? I've said this before, but it is exactly the same as when I was in Denver and B.V. Puri Maharaj was in town and some people wanted him to come to the ISKCON temple. Badrinarayan had us all trained up military style that non-iskcon people are welcome to "come take darsana, offer them a seat, some water, maybe prasad - BUT NO CLASS", and basically show them the door. Now Puri Maharaj has passed away and they all glorify him after he's gone. It is materialism!!!
I don't care whether Sridhar Maharaj is on an ISKCON temple altar. I can respect their faith, is it too much to ask the same in return??
The rest of the points you make seem to come from the projection of if GM were back in ISKCON again, which everyone including the mediation team doesn't seem to think is desirable. What I think is desirable to come from the mediation is that ISKCON breaks down some of these barriers and educates it's devotees about who GM is, and that he is not bad for their spiritual health. Many many ISKCON devotees do follow the GBC party line on things like this - who is good and who is bad. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to think GM is bad, or to be suspicious of him, and they just need their own faith to be strengthened so that they can encounter someone from a different planet without freaking out!
You go brother! :Rolling Eyes: Thank you for taking the time to respond to Vrndavan das.
I agree that Vrndavan das' experiences are not typical and kind of doubt (sorry prabhu) the reliability of his sources in regards to how ISKCON authorities view GM as well as the outcome of the mediation two years ago. After his posts I honestly I feel as though a GBC spokesman just invaded the TV. At the moment, myself and some devotees are organizing a short east coast jaunt for GM and it hasn't been easy. Maybe prabhu should try it, he may just have a major reality check.
I spent 20 years actively serving in ISKCON prior to joining GM's mission. I have lived in an ISKCON temple asrama for 8 years as well as satellite preaching centers after that. I have worked closely with GBC's and managers on many levels and I have not had any experience that remotely resembles that of Vrndavan das' account. Schmoozing with ISKCON sannyasis about ISKCON politics as you host and give them donations is a far cry from trying to serve in Guru Maharaja's mission as his representative and dealing with the GBC. Let's not be naive.
Nitaisundara Das - July 4, 2009 10:08 pm
The mediation team asked GM to write something about how he sees Srila Prabhupada and Srila Sridhara Maharaja, eventually GM thought it was not the best idea, told them why, they agreed, end of story. Even in the event that they were waiting on GM to facilitate some bureaucratic baby-step, if we zoom out a little we can see that the ball has been in their court since the 80's. GM owes nobody anything.
Take GM out of the equation, what is their excuse for not actively speaking out against the offensive attitudes towards Sridhara Maharaja that pervade the society? Who are they waiting for on that front?
It's just silly. Iskcon has devotees everywhere, so if out of circumstance our association is with ISkcon, fine. But let's be honest about what that means most of the time.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - July 4, 2009 10:28 pm
You go brother! :Rolling Eyes: Thank you for taking the time to respond to Vrndavan das.After his posts I honestly I feel as though a GBC spokesman just invaded the TV. At the moment, myself and some devotees are organizing a short east coast jaunt for GM and it hasn't been easy. Maybe prabhu should try it, he may just have a major reality check.
I think that it is too harsh on Vrindavan. He has done a good service by discussing the ISKCON opposition here itself so that everything is clear from our side.
Gaurangi-priya Devi - July 4, 2009 10:47 pm
Dear Vrindavan,
Thanks for writing your thoughts. It is nice to get to know each other. We should all feel comfortable to speak our minds.
I live with my family, one mile from the ISKCON temple. I am very much involved in service there, always organizing entertainment for the festivals, programs for the community children, and other services. Even though that is the case, when I asked 2 years ago if GM could come to the temple for greeting of the Deities and kirtan (the morning schedule is class before the deity greeting so I thought it would avoid any awkwardness with having him there during class time), the temple president told me yes. He then called back a few hours later and said that GM couldn't come to the temple during any temple program. Basically, yes, GM could go to ISKCON temples during the part of the day when no devotees are there. This is purely insulting, and if he would go to a temple, he should be given the respect due him as a sannyasi and duly initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada. When we put up a flier for a home program on the temple community board it was taken down, and my father was not allowed to invite devotees from the temple to my initiation at a nearby house. These and so many other instances are what happens in ISKCON temples. We have been inviting GM here to Hillsborough, NC for four years now, and every year we get more and more people in this ISKCON community that get beyond the obstacles and come to get inspired by him. And that is just because we are open about our inspiration for him, and devotees who are sincere about their spiritual advancement appreciate him. But it took years for some of those people to come, and still I have many friends that would gladly go to the movies with me, but who won't come to a program at my house with him. All we would like to see is a simple statement from the GBC stating who GM is, and encouraging devotees to at least give him the basic respect due to him. I am not expecting everyone to have the same enthusiasm and faith in him, but at least the respect devotees are trained to give to senior devotees.
These are painful things to bring up, and I don't want to add more insult to GM than he already experiences (please forgive me GM), but these are just some instances for you to ponder. I am someone who is involved in ISKCON, but who has been given the substance of my spiritual life from GM and love him with all my heart. This type of disrespect is incredibly painful. Things do need to change, and no victims here. We want to be powerful warriors, standing up for the truth. It must be done, and as Prema said, though they may not do anything right now from Madan's letter, it is at least in their consciousness.
with respect,
Gaurangi Priya
Vrindavandas - July 4, 2009 11:35 pm
It is very nice to see everybody express their perspectives with such passion. I can appreciate where each of you is coming from, and there are just a couple of things I need to clarify:
1. Audarya lila - not everyone has a picture of Sridhar Maharaja on their altar. At least I don't, and I have no desire to put one there. As much as I appreciate Sridhar Maharaja's influence on Guru Maharaja and believe that he was a pure devotee, I would not put anything or anyone between Prabhupada and Bhaktisiddhanta on my altar. Just my personal feelings. similarly, although I have many deep siksa relationships, there is no picture on my altar between Guru Maharaja and Prabhupada, and like I stated above, there will not be one, just a personal sentiment.
2. Gaura Vijaya - The issue with ISKCON and the Sridhar Maharaja picture on the altar is two fold. A. Clearly some people think that just because Guru Maharaja had siksa from Sridhar Maharaja, they feel compelled or threatened. B. They do not feel comfortable or understand why a god sibling, GM or otherwise, would put someone between Prabhupada and Bhaktisiddhanta. Like I said before, regardless of the guru tattva rationalization, it is still a sentiment.
3. Madan Gopal - thank you for at least in some way expressing some of your sentiment and experiences that you went through. I would be eager to hear from you privately what actually transpired in your previous relationships including with your former guru, to understand where you are coming from better. Regarding the incident with my friend Tukarama, we were going to do a full progam there on a regular basis, however Badrinarayan shot it down. To this day, Tukarama is still willing to have Guru Maharaja come down and speak with the temple devotees and give them darshan. Because of the issue with Badrinarayan he would not be able to advertise, but at least it is something.
4. Prema bhakti - I appreciate your passion and candor, you are a very good writer and very expressive. Clearly you have been hurt and although it is no fault of mine, I am sorry that you were wronged in any way. As far as citing my sources, here goes... Hridayananda Maharaja, was the one who told me that they were waiting for Guru Maharaja to make the next move. Reading Nitaisundara's post, I was not off, GM just decided it was not the best thing for him to do. Regarding my experience with putting on programs, I have. Over the years, I have been personally responsible for close to 100 programs. Guru Maharaja came for a few, and had there not been a miscommunication with a couple of people regarding scheduling we could have had many more when he came down and larger attendance. The first program we had nearly 40 people. The second program only 7 but like I said, miscommunication which I take responsibility for.
In regards to my relationship with Iskcon sannyasis, et. al. I have had a very cordial and close relationship with quite a few. I choose to meet people on their level and I in no way force my opinion on others. I personally choose to work with any person who is interested and I have gotten very good results. People respond to me differently, I believe, because of my approach
5. Nitaisundara - thank you for finally explaining what the mediators wanted GM to do. Since it is a little ambiguous, I am not sure why GM would not be interested in writing about how he sees Prabhupada and Sridhara Maharaja, but at the end of the day, that is his perogative and I have no say or influence in any of that. Regarding people speaking harshly of Sridhara Maharaja, that was so 1981. You cannot find anything in print from an official ISKCON representative in the current day, disparaging Sridhar Maharaja. As a matter of fact, I believe that most congregation members do not even know who Sridhara Maharaja was or the mistake that certain members of ISKCON made against him. I am fairly certain that there is no ISKCON official running around today villifying Sridhara Maharaja. Most of them read his books anyways.
I just want to add a couple more things here and then I will shut up for good:
The internet has given the world access to so much information like never before. How this changes ISKCON policy is quite dramatic. You can't tell someone anymore not to read or hear from someone, because it is everywhere. There are individuals who see GM as a legitimate threat, not because what he says is wrong but because of his shakti. There are leaders in ISKCON who are concerned with losing man power to someone else like GM, because they feel they put the work into cultivating someone, and then the devotee gets "poached". While I personally think this is a silly concept and rather childish, it is a very real sentiment.
Iskcon is a very new institution and is having its growing pains just like all other organizations go through. While it will take a few generations to smooth things out, it isn't all bad, and finding a way to work cooperatively is still possible.
Culturally relevant preaching is pretty much nonexistant in my opinion and that is the biggest issue everyone is facing. Krishna Consciousness is a very tangible and effective spiritual science and I believe it should be treated that way. Making it relevant for in the very least Americans, means having to do a complete facelift for the image. Given that this is a completely different topic, I will reserve commentary for anyone who wants to speak with me privately about it, however I do believe there need to be radical changes immediately and I am not referring to any of the 4 regs.
Again, thank you everyone for your expressions and perspectives. I think you are a very passionate group who cares immensely for what you believe in.
peace and love, peace and love... (Ringo Starr)
Prema-bhakti - July 4, 2009 11:36 pm
I think that it is too harsh on Vrindavan. He has done a good service by discussing the ISKCON opposition here itself so that everything is clear from our side.
I am sorry if my comments seem harsh to you. It is very hard for me to read Vrndavan das' posts which seem to only come when he feels the need to lecture our sanga about the "real" goings on in ISKCON. We know what the other side thinks already and we are bothered because it directly affects the seva and honor we want to offer to our GM and his mission.
In my experience, individual bridges don't affect ISKCON policy. I liken it to a fantasy football game. We may choose the best players from all over and put them together on our fantasy team but in reality such a team has absolutely no bearing on the Superbowl. None. Certainly some individuals may be more favorable than others yet when it comes down to it even if the GBC lacks authority (which it does) it defines and enforces the laws and identity of ISKCON.
Citta Hari Dasa - July 5, 2009 12:13 am
There are leaders in ISKCON who are concerned with losing man power to someone else like GM, because they feel they put the work into cultivating someone, and then the devotee gets "poached". While I personally think this is a silly concept and rather childish, it is a very real sentiment.
And those leaders are a large part of why the situation is what it is. Either directly or indirectly they are busy perpetuating uber-kanistha ideas that are opposed to genuine spirituality. Poaching?? What a joke. Definitely a childish sentiment and it seems to me that this mentality is the root of the problem. The concern is not about the faith of the people involved but rather the institution. As SSM said, "Society consciousness or God consciousness." Such rigid institutionalism is incredibly shortsighted: the health (on all levels) of the members is essential to the wellbeing of the society. That a Vaisnava of GM's caliber is viewed as a threat perfectly illustrates how misplaced their values are. He is seen as a threat because on some level they know they lack something, otherwise they would have no problem with him (or anyone else) talking to their people. Only by honoring the free flow of faith can the integrity of the institution be maintained. Without that any attempts on a social or political level will never address the core issues Iskcon faces and will so ultimately fail. As long as concerns for money and manpower trump concerns of faith then Iskcon is doomed--it will never be able to understand, much less interact with in any meaningful way, someone like GM.
Prema-bhakti - July 5, 2009 1:44 am
I appreciate your apology although it is not necessary. I have no personal ax to grind and honestly I am not "hurt" by anything that happened. I learned long ago that the "tat te nukampam" verse was an important verse to purify the heart. I have also apologized to many persons as you just have to me and I finally came to the point of not wanting to be an indirect cause and thus having some responsibility in it. That is when I made the decision ( and it was not easy in one sense being all that I knew for 20 years) to surrender to a person and a mission with integrity and give my life to that. Yet when ISKCON repeatedly harasses and misrepresents and offends (yes, I believe this is so) my GM then I naturally am passionate about it.4. Prema bhakti - I appreciate your passion and candor, you are a very good writer and very expressive. Clearly you have been hurt and although it is no fault of mine, I am sorry that you were wronged in any way. As far as citing my sources, here goes... Hridayananda Maharaja, was the one who told me that they were waiting for Guru Maharaja to make the next move. Reading Nitaisundara's post, I was not off, GM just decided it was not the best thing for him to do. Regarding my experience with putting on programs, I have. Over the years, I have been personally responsible for close to 100 programs. Guru Maharaja came for a few, and had there not been a miscommunication with a couple of people regarding scheduling we could have had many more when he came down and larger attendance. The first program we had nearly 40 people. The second program only 7 but like I said, miscommunication which I take responsibility for.In regards to my relationship with Iskcon sannyasis, et. al. I have had a very cordial and close relationship with quite a few. I choose to meet people on their level and I in no way force my opinion on others. I personally choose to work with any person who is interested and I have gotten very good results. People respond to me differently, I believe, because of my approach
In regards to your resume of programs it is quite impressive. I am assuming these were all home programs (forgive me if I am wrong) where you had ultimate authority and should. I was speaking of ISKCON temple programs. As caretaker of 26 Second Avenue in NYC, I had to fight tooth and nail to be able to host vaisnavas from other missions. I found little support. We did however successfully host Sripad BB Tirtha Maharaja as well as Sripad Narayana Maharaja. This was due to a few persons integrity and willingness to fight for the truth. I wanted to personally to wake up the next day and feel I did the right thing regardless of how I was consequently treated by the authorities. BTW, we lost no one from our rather large congregation over it. 
The one thing I do hold against ISKCON is that I did not have the opportunity to hear from Guru Maharaja. I had no access to this swan like Vaisnava for twenty years and why was that?
The internet has given the world access to so much information like never before. How this changes ISKCON policy is quite dramatic. You can't tell someone anymore not to read or hear from someone, because it is everywhere. There are individuals who see GM as a legitimate threat, not because what he says is wrong but because of his shakti. There are leaders in ISKCON who are concerned with losing man power to someone else like GM, because they feel they put the work into cultivating someone, and then the devotee gets "poached". While I personally think this is a silly concept and rather childish, it is a very real sentiment.
They certainly can tell people that (as ridiculous as it is) and they do. If you mean that people don;t have to listen, they certainly don't but then what is the point of being in the institution if the authorities' instructions don't mean squat to you?
The idea of poaching, now that is reality in ISKCON. Your description is almost identical to a conversation I recently had with someone. Yes, GM is a legitimate threat in their estimation as he does have shakti and people will take shelter of him. :He He: We can all agree on that.These are just the ideas that cause hurt and interfere with the free flow of faith. It is so unbecoming and needs to be uprooted. This attitude defies the core tenets of GV to honor the free flow of faith and to take sadhu sanga. Instead of cultivating the type of deep spiritual sentiment one needs to invoke sraddha in another, they cheat and keep people in fear of those outside of ISKCON. :Rolling Eyes:
Culturally relevant preaching is pretty much nonexistant in my opinion and that is the biggest issue everyone is facing. Krishna Consciousness is a very tangible and effective spiritual science and I believe it should be treated that way. Making it relevant for in the very least Americans, means having to do a complete facelift for the image. Given that this is a completely different topic, I will reserve commentary for anyone who wants to speak with me privately about it, however I do believe there need to be radical changes immediately and I am not referring to any of the 4 regs.
Yes. Whatever affiliation one may have they should be reading the Harmonist.
Syamasundara - July 5, 2009 2:22 am
Going back to the point in case, if the management is inimical, or let's say not facilitating, but the congregation is not, why not have programs very close to those temples, so the people can go and the management won't be able to say "you can't do this in our temples".
Nitaisundara Das - July 5, 2009 2:35 am
I think there are two reasons GM did not write what they wanted him to, first, he has written and spoken about it steadily for years its all their on the Sanga Archives and for download in the talks. Secondly, GM is not willing to dumb-down his stance for wider acceptance, and even they know that would be needed for people like Trivikrama Swami or Bhakti Vikas, or Badrinarayana, or Romapada Swami, etc etc, to even consider acknowledging GM's existence and success.
This is all such old news, it is not an issue of pessimism or victim mentality. This is just the truth. I don't think a single person here who has contact with ISKCON has not heard multiple people, some in authority positions, take offensive stances toward GM and SSM. If so many devotees are so great and open why are they not speaking up and risking their own necks? Where are the convictions and ultimatums?
Gaura-Vijaya Das - July 5, 2009 2:38 am
I think there are two reasons GM did not write what they wanted him to, first, he has written and spoken about it steadily for years its all their on the Sanga Archives and for download in the talks. Secondly, GM is not willing to dumb-down his stance for wider acceptance, and even they know that would be needed for people like Trivikrama Swami or Bhakti Vikas, or Badrinarayana, or Romapada Swami, etc etc, to even consider acknowledging GM's existence and success.
This is all such old news, it is not an issue of pessimism or victim mentality. This is just the truth. I don't think a single person here who has contact with ISKCON has not heard multiple people, some in authority positions, take offensive stances toward GM and SSM. If so many devotees are so great and open why are they not speaking up and risking their own necks? Where are the convictions and ultimatums?
What did they want GM to write exactly? I mean what did they want GM to do to placate them?
Madhavendra Puri Dasa - July 5, 2009 5:49 am
With all respect I also think that Vrindavan's vision of the situation is somehow inaccurate. I have first hand experience of becoming Guru Maharaja's follower in Polish Iskcon enviroment and I've seen other devotees as well, who were connected with Iskcon and then got affiliated with Swami. Immediately I felt ostracized, devotees were trying to destroy my faith in Guru Maharaja etc. Leading sannyasi in Poland started to give classes in which he warned devotees about Swami, and I am still called traitor by some of my old friends. Maybe in States Iskcon is little more tolerant (though reading some of the posts here I don't see that), but in Poland majority of devotees is being strongly preached against any contact with Guru Maharaja and generally against contact with the preachers from outside of Iskcon. Presently, after Narayana Maharaja, Swami is considered a second biggest threat to Iskcon mission in Poland :Rolling Eyes: and it's not a secret. It's been preached officially.
I used to think (naively) that Iskcon can change soon, and if people only see how nice and pure figure Swami is there will be no more misunderstanding, but then I realized that it was just a fantasy. Offensive mentality is too deeply rooted in most of Iskcon leaders. This and also fear, small mindness, parochialism, institutionalism, fanaticism and pride. I might be too negative but I don't expect much from most of them.
PS. I don't include in that all of them, because clearly there are exceptions like for example Krsna Ksetra Prabhu and others. However they are not in the main stream of Iskcon.
Gaurasundara Das - July 5, 2009 12:43 pm
"not everyone has a picture of Sridhar Maharaja on their altar. At least I don't, and I have no desire to put one there. As much as I appreciate Sridhar Maharaja's influence on Guru Maharaja and believe that he was a pure devotee, I would not put anything or anyone between Prabhupada and Bhaktisiddhanta on my altar"
This statement by Vrindavan das seems totally off to me. Please correct me if I'm wrong. First it seems to show some kind of ISKCON-y idea that Srila Sridhar Maharaj can get in between Srila Prabhupada and Bhaktisiddhanta. And second it seems strange that a disciple could decide to omit his param guru. Is it just a matter of appreciating Sridhara Maharaj?? The swami.org website says that Guru Maharaj is a combination of the mercy of these two saints. To " have no desire" to have a picture of Srila Sridhar Maharaj seems to me like a lack of understanding as to who Guru Maharaj is. I think I heard a story of Sridhar Maharaj correcting a disciple who decided to omit a picture of Gaura Kishor das babaji. Anyone??
Syamasundara - July 5, 2009 12:48 pm
Presently, after Narayana Maharaja, Swami is considered a second biggest threat to Iskcon mission in Poland :Rolling Eyes: and it's not a secret. It's been preached officially.
I'm starting to feel like I need a bath. You don't see these dealings anywhere in Cc or SB. Still, I feel so much compassion for all those souls in Iskcon who have no clue. It's true that the internet is everywhere, but many of these people's faith is really tender and delicate. Association is everything.
Syamasundara - July 5, 2009 1:08 pm
"not everyone has a picture of Sridhar Maharaja on their altar. At least I don't, and I have no desire to put one there. As much as I appreciate Sridhar Maharaja's influence on Guru Maharaja and believe that he was a pure devotee, I would not put anything or anyone between Prabhupada and Bhaktisiddhanta on my altar"
This statement by Vrindavan das seems totally off to me. Please correct me if I'm wrong. First it seems to show some kind of ISKCON-y idea that Srila Sridhar Maharaj can get in between Srila Prabhupada and Bhaktisiddhanta. And second it seems strange that a disciple could decide to omit his param guru. Is it just a matter of appreciating Sridhara Maharaj?? The swami.org website says that Guru Maharaj is a combination of the mercy of these two saints. To " have no desire" to have a picture of Srila Sridhar Maharaj seems to me like a lack of understanding as to who Guru Maharaj is. I think I heard a story of Sridhar Maharaj correcting a disciple who decided to omit a picture of Gaura Kishor das babaji. Anyone??
It is indeed a trifle thing. Again quantity vs quality; "Who is above, who is below. Whos is first, who is only second." If the parampara pictures were traditionally set vertically, SSM and SP would be side by side, and everybody would be happy. However, they are not and SSM had to be somewhere. Given that he was senior to SP and almost became his sannyasa guru, it makes more sense that he'd be after SBS.
I guess things are more complicated in Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti. Does Narayana Maharaja allow people to put SP's picture between his own and Kesava Maharaja? Or there are different versions, whether it's a temple in India with disciples of NM who never met SP, or one in Fidji of scoop-ups from Iskcon?
Swami - July 5, 2009 1:17 pm
"not everyone has a picture of Sridhar Maharaja on their altar. At least I don't, and I have no desire to put one there. As much as I appreciate Sridhar Maharaja's influence on Guru Maharaja and believe that he was a pure devotee, I would not put anything or anyone between Prabhupada and Bhaktisiddhanta on my altar"
This statement by Vrindavan das seems totally off to me. Please correct me if I'm wrong. First it seems to show some kind of ISKCON-y idea that Srila Sridhar Maharaj can get in between Srila Prabhupada and Bhaktisiddhanta. And second it seems strange that a disciple could decide to omit his param guru. Is it just a matter of appreciating Sridhara Maharaj?? The swami.org website says that Guru Maharaj is a combination of the mercy of these two saints. To " have no desire" to have a picture of Srila Sridhar Maharaj seems to me like a lack of understanding as to who Guru Maharaj is. I think I heard a story of Sridhar Maharaj correcting a disciple who decided to omit a picture of Gaura Kishor das babaji. Anyone??
Yes Gaurasundara, your understanding is correct. I just read this thread and Vrindavana dasa you sound like a mouthpiece for Hridayanada Maharaja. The mediation people asked me to write a statement, perhaps in a sanga email that they could showcase to other Iskcon devotees to demonstrate something (I can't remember what now?), but moving forward was not dependent on me doing so. Furthermore I spoke with the leader of the mediation shortly thereafter and suggested my writing something might not be a good strategy and he agreed.
Back to the pictures, Vrindavana das you write that regardless of tattva there is a sentiment. Prabhupada: "sentiment without tattva is fanaticism." I
set up my mission under the guidance and inspiration of Pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja. He was asked about how to set up the altar in such missions and I have followed his suggestion.
Iskcon can't tolerate seeing Sridhara Maharaja's picture between Prabhupada and Bhaktisiddhanta, or better stated Hridayananda Maharaja can't. He thinks it is a public statement that minimizes or relativizes Prabhupada. But I follow Sridhara Maharaja, not Hridayanand Maharaja. I have no interest in being associated with such fanaticism, spiritual immaturity, and just plain misunderstanding of guru tattva, which is the whole problem with Iskcon: they tend to have a static at best understanding of guru tattva. I could write volumes about this.
Braja-sundari Dasi - July 5, 2009 1:26 pm
Dear Vrindavan das, my experience is exactly like that of Madhavendra...
I was living in Iskcon temples for 13 years, serving as temple treasurer and I had also several other responsible services. Congregational devotees loved me and trusted me...
I was main person to collect money for my former guru, organize his Vyasa puja festivals and I was publishing his newsletter for about 10 years. And what happened when I expressed my desire to have siksa from Guru Maharaja? Just in few days I was totally rejected- my services were given to someone else and I was told to leave the temple. My former guru cut off his relation with me and at first even forbidden me to come to any Iskcon temple in Poland! (this was changed later). All this was done clearly against Iskcon law and I would win in any court if I desired to bother with it. Although this situation enraged community greatly and although Indradyumna Swami supported me... nothing helped...
Just in few days I became a thread to the temple I faithfully served for years...
But I know why.... For many years I was also a victim of this kind of peaching where any devotee who was not the main stream fanatic was presented as "not bona fide" or at least "suspicious"... This is poison that is slowly but surely destroying proper discrimination among many Iskcon devotees. :Rolling Eyes: It is something rooted so deeply that one or two favorable persons cannot change it.
Swami - July 5, 2009 1:53 pm
I am also surprised to learn that you have had over 100 programs at your house, Vrindavan das. How many have you had since you took initiation from me?
As for honoring one's sentiment with regard to guru, I really don't think we have much to learn from Iskcon on this. Think about it and read the testimonies on this thread. Just to be clear, if we were to join Iskcon, I would have to take MY picture of the altar at Audarya and Maduvan, but to honor the sentiments of my disciples they would be allowed to keep a picture of me on their home altar. Unfortunately those living at Madhuvan and Audarya have no separate homes.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - July 5, 2009 2:37 pm
But I know why.... For many years I was also a victim of this kind of peaching where any devotee who was not the main stream fanatic was presented as "not bona fide" or at least "suspicious"... This is poison that is slowly but surely destroying proper discrimination among many Iskcon devotees. :Rolling Eyes: It is something rooted so deeply that one or two favorable persons cannot change it.
I like the term mainstream fanatic!!
Gaura-Vijaya Das - July 5, 2009 2:40 pm
I guess things are more complicated in Gaudiya Vedanta Samiti. Does Narayana Maharaja allow people to put SP's picture between his own and Kesava Maharaja? Or there are different versions, whether it's a temple in India with disciples of NM who never met SP, or one in Fidji of scoop-ups from Iskcon?
I think NM does have a picture of SP between him and his GM though I am not sure. But like you said what else can you do when you have horizontal and not vertical altars.
Syamasundara - July 5, 2009 2:54 pm
That is a slightly different case. For a SP disciple it only makes sense that NM comes after SP, but what about NM's direct disciples?
Citta Hari Dasa - July 5, 2009 5:18 pm
B. They do not feel comfortable or understand why a god sibling, GM or otherwise, would put someone between Prabhupada and Bhaktisiddhanta. Like I said before, regardless of the guru tattva rationalization, it is still a sentiment.
If they don't understand then that is their problem, not ours. Rather than suspecting or vilifying GM they should listen to him and learn about guru-tattva and how to harmonize the tattva with sentiment. But no, they think they know it all and have nothing to learn from him.
"Guru tattva rationalization?" Are you serious? The tattva is the foundation of everything we do. GM has said that he is equally influenced by both SP and SSM. Why any of GM's disciples would not want SSM on his or her altar I cannot fathom. It has nothing at all to do with putting someone between SP and BSST, it has to do with understanding and honoring whose grace has made our GM who he is.
Swami - July 5, 2009 6:52 pm
If they don't understand then that is their problem, not ours. Rather than suspecting or vilifying GM they should listen to him and learn about guru-tattva and how to harmonize the tattva with sentiment. But no, they think they know it all and have nothing to learn from him.
"Guru tattva rationalization?" Are you serious? The tattva is the foundation of everything we do. GM has said that he is equally influenced by both SP and SSM. Why any of GM's disciples would not want SSM on his or her altar I cannot fathom. It has nothing at all to do with putting someone between SP and BSST, it has to do with understanding and honoring whose grace has made our GM who he is.
A rationalization is an attempt to explain or justify (one's own or another's behavior or attitude) with logical, plausible reasons, even if these are not true or appropriate. Iskcon is rationalizing not us!
Vrindavandas - July 5, 2009 9:43 pm
I am also surprised to learn that you have had over 100 programs at your house, Vrindavan das. How many have you had since you took initiation from me?
As for honoring one's sentiment with regard to guru, I really don't think we have much to learn from Iskcon on this. Think about it and read the testimonies on this thread. Just to be clear, if we were to join Iskcon, I would have to take MY picture of the altar at Audarya and Maduvan, but to honor the sentiments of my disciples they would be allowed to keep a picture of me on their home altar. Unfortunately those living at Madhuvan and Audarya have no separate homes.
Someone said they were at my house not me. some were at my house, most at other locations. I did the marketing, cooking and preparations for. I have only spoken 2 times at a program over the course of time.
from 1993-1998 I put together, somewhere between 75-80 programs.
1999-2007: about 20 programs
2007-present - none
I have not done any programs in almost 3 years because of 2 things; personal turmoil that needed to get resolved and also I think that the current preaching model is outdated and does not serve western culture. I am in the process of evaluating a new strategy to sucessfully market Krishna Consciousness to those in my environment and globally. I have discussed some of my ideas with a couple close friends and it has been met with enthusiasm.
My explanation of pictures on altars was an attempt at bringing to light the perspectives of some from Iskcon. In my opinion, what people do is their business. I have a nice altar that represents the parampara from GM to the six goswamis.
I still believe that it is unecessary to try to make programs happen at Iskcon temples. As they say in business, if the product is that good they will come to you. In this case I believe that they will come because the product (message) is that solid. As I have stated before, I work with people who want to work with me. I have no interest in fighting or arguing with anyone. There are many good people out there who are willing to work cooperatively. Its just a matter of finding out who.
Prema-bhakti - July 5, 2009 10:20 pm
I had mentioned to Vrndavan dasa that I assumed those 100 programs were in his home and to forgive me if I was wrong. The point still remains that GM was not included in a majority of those programs.
I have not done any programs in almost 3 years because of 2 things; personal turmoil that needed to get resolved and also I think that the current preaching model is outdated and does not serve western culture. I am in the process of evaluating a new strategy to sucessfully market Krishna Consciousness to those in my environment and globally. I have discussed some of my ideas with a couple close friends and it has been met with enthusiasm.
I'm sure our sanga would be interested to hear your ideas too. I imagine though you do not include GM's mission in the category of outdated. I know a lot of people in ISKCON too and we may have a few mutual friends :Rolling Eyes: and I haven't heard any cutting edge models for "marketing" Krsna consciousness of late that are a few cuts above the usual same old/same old. Many preachers and leaders give accolades to the current big Christian missions, etc., that are appealing to the youth. In my opinion, just the idea that GV will become mainstream or popular like Christian groups is a fallacy. It is like comparing apples to oranges. A more reasonable comparison would be to look at the Buddhist traditions taking root in the West as a fair representation of how GV could spread if it were presented in relevant way to westerners.
Syamasundara - July 6, 2009 1:48 am
I am in the process of evaluating a new strategy to sucessfully market Krishna Consciousness to those in my environment and globally. I have discussed some of my ideas with a couple close friends and it has been met with enthusiasm.
Forgive me if I'm mistaken or reading too much (or little) in your words, but a few posts above you said that culturally relevant preaching is pretty much non-existent, and in that pretty much I wanted to read that obviously GM's approach is not included in that analysis, but you didn't really specify anything, so one has the right to wonder.
Now this post comes right after GM's, so it sounds to me that while replying to him, you are informing him for the first time about "your" preaching strategy that other people have applauded.
Again, it could be that the post was informing everyone, but since you didn't say anything like: "As you well know, Guru Maharaja" or "as we already discussed", my first reaction was: "What does he think preaching means, if not the overflow of the mercy received by one's own guru? How can he device preaching "strategies" with his guru still alive and unaware of them, if it hadn't come up in passing on this forum?"
Please dispel my doubt.
Vrindavandas - July 6, 2009 3:50 am
Forgive me if I'm mistaken or reading too much (or little) in your words, but a few posts above you said that culturally relevant preaching is pretty much non-existent, and in that pretty much I wanted to read that obviously GM's approach is not included in that analysis, but you didn't really specify anything, so one has the right to wonder.Now this post comes right after GM's, so it sounds to me that while replying to him, you are informing him for the first time about "your" preaching strategy that other people have applauded.
Again, it could be that the post was informing everyone, but since you didn't say anything like: "As you well know, Guru Maharaja" or "as we already discussed", my first reaction was: "What does he think preaching means, if not the overflow of the mercy received by one's own guru? How can he device preaching "strategies" with his guru still alive and unaware of them, if it hadn't come up in passing on this forum?"
Please dispel my doubt.
I had discussed some preaching strategies with Guru Maharaja a few years ago. since then, particularly in the last 4 months, I have come up with some more refined ideas. To date I have only thrown a few out there to a couple of friends to get their reaction. I think Guru Maharaja's preaching is excellent for a wide range of people, particularly devotees. I am more interested in reaching out to the casual person who may be looking for an alternative to their stale lives. One hint I can give out - my strategy does not include a dhoti and kurta, as I do believe wholeheartedly the "hindu" look is a turn off to many people.
Swami - July 6, 2009 4:18 am
I had discussed some preaching strategies with Guru Maharaja a few years ago. since then, particularly in the last 4 months, I have come up with some more refined ideas. To date I have only thrown a few out there to a couple of friends to get their reaction. I think Guru Maharaja's preaching is excellent for a wide range of people, particularly devotees. I am more interested in reaching out to the casual person who may be looking for an alternative to their stale lives. One hint I can give out - my strategy does not include a dhoti and kurta, as I do believe wholeheartedly the "hindu" look is a turn off to many people.
Actually I am not really interested in preaching, but rather discussing with progressive people who are intelligent enough to see beyond attire. Read the Harmonist. To begin with your approach does not sound very postmodern, and as much as contemporary society is a postmodern one, perhaps out of step. But pray tell us more.
Bijaya Kumara Das - July 6, 2009 5:16 am
And those leaders are a large part of why the situation is what it is. Either directly or indirectly they are busy perpetuating uber-kanistha ideas that are opposed to genuine spirituality. Poaching?? What a joke. Definitely a childish sentiment and it seems to me that this mentality is the root of the problem. The concern is not about the faith of the people involved but rather the institution. As SSM said, "Society consciousness or God consciousness." Such rigid institutionalism is incredibly shortsighted: the health (on all levels) of the members is essential to the wellbeing of the society. That a Vaisnava of GM's caliber is viewed as a threat perfectly illustrates how misplaced their values are. He is seen as a threat because on some level they know they lack something, otherwise they would have no problem with him (or anyone else) talking to their people. Only by honoring the free flow of faith can the integrity of the institution be maintained. Without that any attempts on a social or political level will never address the core issues Iskcon faces and will so ultimately fail. As long as concerns for money and manpower trump concerns of faith then Iskcon is doomed--it will never be able to understand, much less interact with in any meaningful way, someone like GM.
here here prabhu well said
it is the money trap
that was their first beef with him and always will be
he gave it to the proper source His Divine Grace and they lost control then and His Divine Grace gave control then
So long ago Guru maharajas' independence was validated and they all still resent that
once again bhakti triumphs
it was terrible what the instiutional conciousness did back then even when His Divine Grace was alive and the GBC would not listen then and is sure going to be hard to get them to come to their sense now unless the crisis contiunes until they have now other option and by then it may be to late but Guru Maharaja is so kind he sitll might have the wear with all to save them (GBC)
you should get the tapes of my intiation to hear His message to them then and it is still the same 13 years later, bhakti first every thing else will follow.
Bijaya Kumara Das - July 6, 2009 5:31 am
Yes Gaurasundara, your understanding is correct. I just read this thread and Vrindavana dasa you sound like a mouthpiece for Hridayanada Maharaja. The mediation people asked me to write a statement, perhaps in a sanga email that they could showcase to other Iskcon devotees to demonstrate something (I can't remember what now?), but moving forward was not dependent on me doing so. Furthermore I spoke with the leader of the mediation shortly thereafter and suggested my writing something might not be a good strategy and he agreed.
Back to the pictures, Vrindavana das you write that regardless of tattva there is a sentiment. Prabhupada: "sentiment without tattva is fanaticism." I
set up my mission under the guidance and inspiration of Pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja. He was asked about how to set up the altar in such missions and I have followed his suggestion.
Iskcon can't tolerate seeing Sridhara Maharaja's picture between Prabhupada and Bhaktisiddhanta, or better stated Hridayananda Maharaja can't. He thinks it is a public statement that minimizes or relativizes Prabhupada. But I follow Sridhara Maharaja, not Hridayanand Maharaja. I have no interest in being associated with such fanaticism, spiritual immaturity, and just plain misunderstanding of guru tattva, which is the whole problem with Iskcon: they tend to have a static at best understanding of guru tattva. I could write volumes about this.
you already did and it is in book form so why do the persist Our Effectionate Gurardians
Bijaya Kumara Das - July 6, 2009 5:41 am
I am also surprised to learn that you have had over 100 programs at your house, Vrindavan das. How many have you had since you took initiation from me?
As for honoring one's sentiment with regard to guru, I really don't think we have much to learn from Iskcon on this. Think about it and read the testimonies on this thread. Just to be clear, if we were to join Iskcon, I would have to take MY picture of the altar at Audarya and Maduvan, but to honor the sentiments of my disciples they would be allowed to keep a picture of me on their home altar. Unfortunately those living at Madhuvan and Audarya have no separate homes.
i do not see why that would be the case because there are pictures of GBC at the feet of Prabhupada at some other ISKCON centers. If you were to join I would be very upset if you did remove your picture for you are our sampradaya
Bijaya Kumara Das - July 6, 2009 5:48 am
I had mentioned to Vrndavan dasa that I assumed those 100 programs were in his home and to forgive me if I was wrong. The point still remains that GM was not included in a majority of those programs.I'm sure our sanga would be interested to hear your ideas too. I imagine though you do not include GM's mission in the category of outdated. I know a lot of people in ISKCON too and we may have a few mutual friends :Rolling Eyes: and I haven't heard any cutting edge models for "marketing" Krsna consciousness of late that are a few cuts above the usual same old/same old. Many preachers and leaders give accolades to the current big Christian missions, etc., that are appealing to the youth. In my opinion, just the idea that GV will become mainstream or popular like Christian groups is a fallacy. It is like comparing apples to oranges. A more reasonable comparison would be to look at the Buddhist traditions taking root in the West as a fair representation of how GV could spread if it were presented in relevant way to westerners.
We were going to title our program Bhagavad Gita dicussions and now the people associated with the Sacramento temple are using it for their Saturday gathering.
Babhru Das - July 6, 2009 1:34 pm
BIjaya's last post prompts me to report briefly on last night's program at ISKCON Sacramento. I found Paradhyeya, a godbrother from England, thoughtful and rather open minded. As I mentioned before, he specifically wanted me to share something from "O My Friend!" I decided to frame Srila Prabhupada's "Prayer to the Lotus Feet of Krishna" as a realized soul's expression of humility and goptrtve-varanam--utter dependence on Krishna. I had planned to read Srila Sridhara Maharaja's comments on the poem, as well as GM's, but time ran a little short, so I had to paraphrase them. There were about 25 adults present, mostly of Indian extraction. Paradheya's wife, Chaitanya, is really something. Her family is descended from Bhaktivinoda Thakura and also has some relation to Radharani De's family. She's a very devotional lady. When she was a little girl, she would visit Prabhupada's Mayapura Chandrodaya Mandir in its early stages of development, and Srila Prabhupada treated her very affectionately, at one point predicting that she would marry one of his disciples.
Paradhyeya was very happy that I decided to read from and discuss "O My Friend!" and even asked if we had recorded talks on the booklet online somewhere, such as Youtube. He also has a copy of GM's Bhagavad-Gita on the bookshelf in his temple room.
I don't know what this portends for relationships between our sangha and ISKCON in this part of the world, but we'll see how things develop. At the least, I will see what I can do with Paradhyeya, and we'll hear from Bijaya how his Saturday programs go.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - July 6, 2009 3:23 pm
BIjaya's last post prompts me to report briefly on last night's program at ISKCON Sacramento. I found Paradhyeya, a godbrother from England, thoughtful and rather open minded. As I mentioned before, he specifically wanted me to share something from "O My Friend!" I decided to frame Srila Prabhupada's "Prayer to the Lotus Feet of Krishna" as a realized soul's expression of humility and goptrtve-varanam--utter dependence on Krishna. I had planned to read Srila Sridhara Maharaja's comments on the poem, as well as GM's, but time ran a little short, so I had to paraphrase them. There were about 25 adults present, mostly of Indian extraction. Paradheya's wife, Chaitanya, is really something. Her family is descended from Bhaktivinoda Thakura and also has some relation to Radharani De's family. She's a very devotional lady. When she was a little girl, she would visit Prabhupada's Mayapura Chandrodaya Mandir in its early stages of development, and Srila Prabhupada treated her very affectionately, at one point predicting that she would marry one of his disciples.
Paradhyeya was very happy that I decided to read from and discuss "O My Friend!" and even asked if we had recorded talks on the booklet online somewhere, such as Youtube. He also has a copy of GM's Bhagavad-Gita on the bookshelf in his temple room.
I don't know what this portends for relationships between our sangha and ISKCON in this part of the world, but we'll see how things develop. At the least, I will see what I can do with Paradhyeya, and we'll hear from Bijaya how his Saturday programs go.
I may have met his wife Chaitanya. Is she a disciple of JPS? I have seen her in Panihati festivals here.
Prema-bhakti - July 6, 2009 3:30 pm
BIjaya's last post prompts me to report briefly on last night's program at ISKCON Sacramento. I found Paradhyeya, a godbrother from England, thoughtful and rather open minded. As I mentioned before, he specifically wanted me to share something from "O My Friend!" I decided to frame Srila Prabhupada's "Prayer to the Lotus Feet of Krishna" as a realized soul's expression of humility and goptrtve-varanam--utter dependence on Krishna. I had planned to read Srila Sridhara Maharaja's comments on the poem, as well as GM's, but time ran a little short, so I had to paraphrase them. There were about 25 adults present, mostly of Indian extraction. Paradheya's wife, Chaitanya, is really something. Her family is descended from Bhaktivinoda Thakura and also has some relation to Radharani De's family. She's a very devotional lady. When she was a little girl, she would visit Prabhupada's Mayapura Chandrodaya Mandir in its early stages of development, and Srila Prabhupada treated her very affectionately, at one point predicting that she would marry one of his disciples.
Paradhyeya was very happy that I decided to read from and discuss "O My Friend!" and even asked if we had recorded talks on the booklet online somewhere, such as Youtube. He also has a copy of GM's Bhagavad-Gita on the bookshelf in his temple room.
I don't know what this portends for relationships between our sangha and ISKCON in this part of the world, but we'll see how things develop. At the least, I will see what I can do with Paradhyeya, and we'll hear from Bijaya how his Saturday programs go.
With all due respect to Paradheya's invitation and the lineage of his wife, etc. When my ex-husband and I moved to CA we put an ad in Chakra seeking out association in this area (we were in Stockton). Paradheya replied and we researched a bit who they were and their style and presentation. It seemed very traditional Hindu focus as well as forgive me but honestly chauvinistic in tone. Neither Rasaraja or myself had any inclination to go. At that time we were both involved with ISKCON in various capacities.
That was 7 years ago though.
Babhru Das - July 6, 2009 3:31 pm
Yes.
Babhru Das - July 6, 2009 3:37 pm
With all due respect to Paradheya's invitation and the lineage of his wife, etc. When my ex-husband and I moved to CA we put an ad in Chakra seeking out association in this area (we were in Stockton). Paradheya replied and we researched a bit who they were and their style and presentation. It seemed very traditional Hindu focus as well as forgive me but honestly chauvinistic in tone. Neither Rasaraja or myself had any inclination to go. At that time we were both involved with ISKCON in various capacities.That was 7 years ago though.
I'm not surprised to hear that the style struck you as Hindu. He's a nice guy, but she's a very strong woman. She told me that she went to Gaudiya Math places in the area when she was a girl, but they preferred women to be more demure than she liked. She wanted to get out and preach. She's Bengali and has that fire, so if she dominates in some ways, I'm not surprised. Their congregation is largely Indo-
American, and he and Chaitanya encourage their participation. I won't be surprised to see this center grow as a typically ISKCON/Hindu place. Still, he was very interested in "O My Friend!" and not at all put off by my association with GM. I'm not suggesting that he may invite GM there any time soon, just that he seems a little open. We'll work on him subtly and see what it yields.
Prema-bhakti - July 6, 2009 3:59 pm
I'm not surprised to hear that the style struck you as Hindu. He's a nice guy, but she's a very strong woman. She told me that she went to Gaudiya Math places in the area when she was a girl, but they preferred women to be more demure than she liked. She wanted to get out and preach. She's Bengali and has that fire, so if she dominates in some ways, I'm not surprised. Their congregation is largely Indo-American, and he and Chaitanya encourage their participation. I won't be surprised to see this center grow as a typically ISKCON/Hindu place. Still, he was very interested in "O My Friend!" and not at all put off by my association with GM. I'm not suggesting that he may invite GM there any time soon, just that he seems a little open. We'll work on him subtly and see what it yields.
Yes, Chaitanya dasi is a strong woman and she is awesome. She and her husband spent time every now and again on the way to India at the NY temple when I lived there. She stayed in the asrama with us and it was a real treat!!!! She had the most beautiful deities and such devotion to them. She was very kind and affectionate to me in the asrama. Of course, at least then when she was around her husband and in public she was very demure, etc.
I was just commenting on their presentation, that's all. I don't know if they could deal with a saffron clad lady monk. :He He: Maybe?
When we came to CA and researched Paradheya, I remember reading something he wrote that put us off. At the time I did not make the connection that Chaitanya dasi was the one I knew from NY. IN NY, I never paid much attention to her husband or his name.
Well in some way my impression of them led me to expand my horizons for association. We visited Govinda's M's preaching center in San Jose for a while then SDG moved to Philo and Chandra and Aghari told us their neighbor was GM and the rest is history.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - July 6, 2009 4:23 pm
Yes, Chaitanya dasi is a strong woman and she is awesome. She and her husband spent time every now and again on the way to India at the NY temple when I lived there. She stayed in the asrama with us and it was a real treat!!!! She had the most beautiful deities and such devotion to them as they never were able to have children. She was very kind to and affectionate to me in the asrama. Of course, at least then when she was around her husband and in public she was very demure, etc.
I was just commenting on their presentation, that's all. I don't know if they could deal with a saffron clad lady monk. :He He: Maybe?
When we came to CA and researched Paradheya, I remember reading something he wrote that put us off. At the time I did not make the connection that Chaitanya dasi was the one I knew from NY. IN NY, I never paid much attention to her husband or his name.
Well in some way my impression of them led me to expand my horizons for association. We visited Govinda's M's preaching center in San Jose for a while then SDG moved to Philo and Chandra and Aghari told us their neighbor was GM and the rest is history.
I personally feel that we are unnecessary caught up in this stereotype about demure women etc. Most women in my relations who are Indian are less demure than a lot of western women in ISKCON. But yes women in ISKCON are very demure until they are seen in book distribution where they show their aggression.
Prema-bhakti - July 6, 2009 4:26 pm
I just realized that it may sound suspect :He He: when I seem to know everyone to one extent or another on TV threads but I just want say that being in ISKCON in NY for twenty years is equivalent to living in all their temples put together because so many devotees stop through on their way to India, to the NY Rathayatra, and to see "where it all began" for SP. So there 
Babhru Das - July 6, 2009 5:16 pm
Yes, Chaitanya dasi is a strong woman and she is awesome. She and her husband spent time every now and again on the way to India at the NY temple when I lived there. She stayed in the asrama with us and it was a real treat!!!! She had the most beautiful deities and such devotion to them as they never were able to have children.
Hmmm. I met their son, Balarama, who graduated from Sac State a couple of years ago in International Relations. And their daughter is supposed to have a Harvard medical degree and works as a research scientist. Maybe they adopted. But their Deities' worship is beyond gorgeous. She makes all the outfits herself--even crowns, sometimes.
She was very attentive and affectionate to us, and she called her husband "Prabhu" rather than by name. (That reminds me of Turiya das' wife Shaktimati, who I've long suspected provides a lot of the energy in his efforts.) But when she took my plate, Paradhyeya started to hand her his, and she had already turned away. He smiled and shrugged as if it were nothing new.She was very kind to and affectionate to me in the asrama. Of course, at least then when she was around her husband and in public she was very demure, etc.
I was just commenting on their presentation, that's all.
The presentation was not exactly what I'd call progressive. It seemed very much aimed at making the Indo-American congregation members feel a part of the program. And I don't have a real sense of what those members get out of their involvement in terms of understanding tattva and developing their own spiritual lives.
Oh, that would be fun, indeed.I don't know if they could deal with a saffron clad lady monk. :He He: Maybe?
Well in some way my impression of them led me to expand my horizons for association. We visited Govinda's M's preaching center in San Jose for a while then SDG moved to Philo and Chandra and Aghari told us their neighbor was GM and the rest is history.
Your good fortune, and ours.
Babhru Das - July 6, 2009 5:19 pm
I just realized that it may sound suspect
And I'm a guy who has spent much of the last 42 years tucked away in the middle of the ocean or isolated little corners of the country. I did venture out sometimes, and people who ran into me then remember me. But often, when someone asks me if I have ever met soandso, I'll just shrug and say, "Not unless they've been to Hawaii or San Diego." Imagine how worldly and exotice you must seem to some clod like me, from Lompoc, California and Hilo, Hawaii. :He He:
Prema-bhakti - July 6, 2009 5:34 pm
Hmmm. I met their son, Balarama, who graduated from Sac State a couple of years ago in International Relations. And their daughter is supposed to have a Harvard medical degree and works as a research scientist. Maybe they adopted. But their Deities' worship is beyond gorgeous. She makes all the outfits herself--even crowns, sometimes.
[/quote ]
Wow, that's impressive. Yes, they didn't have any children at that time at least and I thought she mentioned something about it. Maybe my memory is faulty in that regard though. :He He:
Prema-bhakti - July 6, 2009 5:46 pm
And I'm a guy who has spent much of the last 42 years tucked away in the middle of the ocean or isolated little corners of the country. I did venture out sometimes, and people who ran into me then remember me. But often, when someone asks me if I have ever met soandso, I'll just shrug and say, "Not unless they've been to Hawaii or San Diego." Imagine how worldly and exotice you must seem to some clod like me, from Lompoc, California and Hilo, Hawaii. :He He:
Worldy and exotic.
I had the good/bad karma to be born and raised in NYC, fortunate to meet devotees very early in life (first time at 9 years old) because of it, and then joined and lived in the Grand Central Station of ISKCON. By product of SP's stated desire and mercy that he wishes all New Yorkers to become Krsna conscious.
As for you prabhu, your intellect and expression of GV goes way deep and that is what counts despite and maybe partly because of that more simple living.
Bijaya Kumara Das - July 7, 2009 5:47 am
I may have met his wife Chaitanya. Is she a disciple of JPS? I have seen her in Panihati festivals here.
yes she is a Jayapataka initiate
he (JPS) has said favorable things about Guru Maharaja and knows that I am his disciple
He (JPS) has fond memories of me helping him avoid being taken by the authorities at the 100 yr celibration of His Divine Grace as he pleaded to be only a spiritual advisor when quite a few devotees became sick eating the prashadam ISCKON arranged for the festival
just becarefull of their duplicious nature
Bijaya Kumara Das - July 7, 2009 5:56 am
I'm not surprised to hear that the style struck you as Hindu. He's a nice guy, but she's a very strong woman. She told me that she went to Gaudiya Math places in the area when she was a girl, but they preferred women to be more demure than she liked. She wanted to get out and preach. She's Bengali and has that fire, so if she dominates in some ways, I'm not surprised. Their congregation is largely Indo-American, and he and Chaitanya encourage their participation. I won't be surprised to see this center grow as a typically ISKCON/Hindu place. Still, he was very interested in "O My Friend!" and not at all put off by my association with GM. I'm not suggesting that he may invite GM there any time soon, just that he seems a little open. We'll work on him subtly and see what it yields.
Chaitanya dasi offered to have Guru Maharaja come and speak but would not commit to a day or time a few years back so Guru deva gave up on that.
They agreed to attend our annual thanks giving feast and attended only the ones that Guru Maharaja was not at, knowing he was going to be here. The last one we had Guru Maharaja was here and also His grace Hanumata Preshak swami and his disciples were here.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - July 7, 2009 2:53 pm
yes she is a Jayapataka initiate
he has said favorable things about Guru Maharaja and knows that I am his disciple
He has fond memories of me helping him avoid being taken by the authorities at the 100 yr celibration of His Divine Grace as he pleaded to be only a spiritual advisor when quite a few devotees became sick eating the prashadam ISCKON arranged for the festival
just becarefull of their duplicious nature
Now who had said favorable things about GM, Chaitanya's husband or JPS. Whose duplicitous nature should we be careful of?
Bijaya Kumara Das - July 7, 2009 3:20 pm
Now who had said favorable things about GM, Chaitanya's husband or JPS. Whose duplicitous nature should we be careful of?
all of them
your question was about JPS so I thought that was the subject, I have edited my coments to avoid further confusion
Prema-bhakti - July 7, 2009 4:42 pm
Hmmm. I met their son, Balarama, who graduated from Sac State a couple of years ago in International Relations. And their daughter is supposed to have a Harvard medical degree and works as a research scientist. Maybe they adopted. But their Deities' worship is beyond gorgeous. She makes all the outfits herself--even crowns, sometimes.
Now that I think more about it, I think I am confusing two people here. The woman I am speaking of was actually related to Srila Prabhupada, I think his niece or something. Unfortunately, I can't remeber her name right now. She was married to a white disciple of SP and I think he was involved in ISKCON Bombay.
They did not have children and she worshipped these gorgeous Radha Krsna deities.
That is what you get for living in the Grand Central Station of ISKCON and then getting old. :He He:
Babhru Das - July 7, 2009 5:13 pm
Now that I think more about it, I think I am confusing two people here. The woman I am speaking of was actually related to Srila Prabhupada, I think his niece or something. Unfortunately, I can't remeber her name right now. She was married to a white disciple of SP and I think he was involved in ISKCON Bombay.
They did not have children and she worshipped these gorgeous Radha Krsna deities.
That is what you get for living in the Grand Central Station of ISKCON and then getting old. :He He:
Sounds like the same woman. I'm a little confused, too, because she emphasized her relationship with Bhaktivinoda Thakura, but her husband, Paradhyeya, mentioned that she's Prabhupada's grand niece.
Babhru Das - July 7, 2009 5:16 pm
That is what you get for living in the Grand Central Station of ISKCON and then getting old. :He He:
You ain't seen nothin' yet.
Prema-bhakti - July 7, 2009 5:40 pm
You ain't seen nothin' yet.
I was afraid of that. :He He:
Prema-bhakti - July 7, 2009 5:44 pm
Sounds like the same woman. I'm a little confused, too, because she emphasized her relationship with Bhaktivinoda Thakura, but her husband, Paradhyeya, mentioned that she's Prabhupada's grand niece.
I guess we need a photo. :He He:
Gaura-Vijaya Das - July 7, 2009 7:08 pm
I guess we need a photo. :He He:
I think I may have some picture taken in the rath yatra this year. I will search for it.
Prema-bhakti - July 7, 2009 7:51 pm
I think I may have some picture taken in the rath yatra this year. I will search for it.
Babhru, I think they may have been named Bhima dasa and Parvati from ISKCON Bombay. Ring any bells for ya?
Gaura-Vijaya Das - July 7, 2009 10:05 pm
Babhru, I think they may have been named Bhima dasa and Parvati from ISKCON Bombay. Ring any bells for ya?
I have got the picture here so the speculation can end.
Prema-bhakti - July 7, 2009 10:32 pm
I have got the picture here so the speculation can end.
Thank you GV for putting an abrupt end to the mental speculation. No, it is not the person I wrote about.
I do recognize her though now that I see the picture maybe from Berkeley Rath.
Gandiva Dasi - July 8, 2009 10:31 am
Now that I think more about it, I think I am confusing two people here. The woman I am speaking of was actually related to Srila Prabhupada, I think his niece or something. Unfortunately, I can't remeber her name right now. She was married to a white disciple of SP and I think he was involved in ISKCON Bombay.
They did not have children and she worshipped these gorgeous Radha Krsna deities.
That is what you get for living in the Grand Central Station of ISKCON and then getting old. :He He:
Bhima Prabhu and Jalatala Mataji ?
Prema-bhakti - July 8, 2009 3:47 pm
Bhima Prabhu and Jalatala Mataji ?
Yup. Some one has been taking their gingko biloba. :He He:
Jalatala is the real deal. Joined in Calcutta in 1970. Grand niece of Srila Prabhupada and initiated by him in 1974. It's all documented in Srila Prabhupada's letters.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - July 8, 2009 6:54 pm
i wanted some more videos of agni from you atmananda.
Prema-bhakti - July 8, 2009 7:36 pm
i wanted some more videos of agni from you atmananda.
Now that we are back to Aginidev's kirtana :He He: Hari-bhakti and I have been working on a bio page for Agni and we need endorsements. I just received one from Satyaraja and Madana has contacted Gaura Vani and I believe Karnamrta dasi.
Does anyone else have some contacts or suggestions?
Prema-bhakti - July 8, 2009 7:39 pm
Gaura-Vijaya Das - July 8, 2009 7:48 pm
We have this one for GM.
Gaudiya Vaishnava Society, can we change it to Sri Chaitanya Sangha. When is the program in NyC, I will come there then.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - July 8, 2009 7:49 pm
Now that we are back to Aginidev's kirtana :He He: Hari-bhakti and I have been working on a bio page for Agni and we need endorsements. I just received one from Satyaraja and Madana has contacted Gaura Vani and I believe Karnamrta dasi.
Does anyone else have some contacts or suggestions?
Maybe it would be good to get one from RNS. Atmananda?
Prema-bhakti - July 8, 2009 8:23 pm
Maybe it would be good to get one from RNS. Atmananda?
Is RNS Radhanatha Swami?
Well, if we have Steven J. Rosen and GV and perhaps Karnamrta dasi, I was hoping to get one maybe from outside ISKCON affiliations. The only quote we have in that regard is the old Patrick Bernard one. Is that one even relevant anymore?
Gaura-Vijaya Das - July 8, 2009 10:07 pm
What happened to GM's trip to NYC? Is it on?
Prema-bhakti - July 8, 2009 11:00 pm
What happened to GM's trip to NYC? Is it on?
Still in discussion as far as I know. Sridama got some stuff going on like marriage in October :He He: and just bought a new house an hour outside NYC. If not soon then eventually.
Prema-bhakti - July 8, 2009 11:00 pm
What happened to GM's trip to NYC? Is it on?
Still in discussion as far as I know. Sridama got some stuff going on like marriage in October :He He: and just bought a new house an hour outside NYC. If not soon then eventually.
Madan Gopal Das - July 9, 2009 1:33 am
Still in discussion as far as I know. Sridama got some stuff going on like marriage in October :He He: and just bought a new house an hour outside NYC.
Whoa, way to go Sridama!!!
Madan Gopal Das - July 9, 2009 1:34 am
Still in discussion as far as I know. Sridama got some stuff going on like marriage in October :He He: and just bought a new house an hour outside NYC.
Whoa, way to go Sridama!!!
Prema-bhakti - July 9, 2009 1:40 am
Whoa, way to go Sridama!!!
Ooops I hope I didn't spoil an announement. :He He:
At least I know GM and Heidi knew about it first.
Bijaya Kumara Das - July 9, 2009 8:47 am
we'll hear from Bijaya how his Saturday programs go.
Babhru, please edit this for my programs are scheduled for the 1st and 3rd Fridays of the month as soon as my wife gets over not allowing any classes until the home remodel is complete and since we are now broke that will be a while unless she can get over the her so called embarassment.
Bijaya Kumara Das - July 9, 2009 8:57 am
Now that we are back to Aginidev's kirtana :He He: Hari-bhakti and I have been working on a bio page for Agni and we need endorsements. I just received one from Satyaraja and Madana has contacted Gaura Vani and I believe Karnamrta dasi.
Does anyone else have some contacts or suggestions?
He was a long time at Govindas and I believe there were articles done by the local media about him and the restuarant, this might be a place to look for comments from college professors etcetra.
Prema-bhakti - July 9, 2009 2:55 pm
He was a long time at Govindas and I believe there were articles done by the local media about him and the restuarant, this might be a place to look for comments from college professors etcetra.
We were thinking more of endorsements from those well known in the kirtana field.
Bijaya Kumara Das - July 9, 2009 6:25 pm
We were thinking more of endorsements from those well known in the kirtana field.
Prabhanu who lives in Roseburg would be a good one. He used to run Detroit and other places and is well known musician. He would be a good source for other contacts. 541 672 0275 i believe is the store number he owns. His wife is also well known. His english name is Paul Allen
Syama Gopala Dasa - July 9, 2009 7:09 pm
Keep me in the loop. I may be able to fly out to NY.
Still in discussion as far as I know. Sridama got some stuff going on like marriage in October :He He: and just bought a new house an hour outside NYC.
Prema-bhakti - July 9, 2009 7:41 pm
Keep me in the loop. I may be able to fly out to NY.
Sure.
Prema-bhakti - July 10, 2009 12:16 am
Keep me in the loop. I may be able to fly out to NY.
Here is the lastest. GM is making plans for Spring 2010 to visit NY and perhaps other parts of the tristate. Sridama will host us in his new home. :He He:
Hope you can make it Syama G.
Syama Gopala Dasa - July 10, 2009 5:47 pm
Yes let's see when the definitive dates come out. spring should be okay to take time off.
Sridama Dasa - July 10, 2009 8:55 pm
Here is the lastest. GM is making plans for Spring 2010 to visit NY and perhaps other parts of the tristate. Sridama will host us in his new home.
Yes, we are definitely going to bring GM to the northeast next spring. I would be honored to host him. Prema and I will keep working on dates and venues and keep everyone posted here.
Whoa, way to go Sridama!!!
Thanks!