Tattva-viveka
Karma and equality
Shyamananda Das - October 30, 2009 2:06 pm
Please accept my dandavats, all devotees.
I have a question about karma and the equality of the baddha-jivas.
Since karma is anadi, can you not say that from an eternal perspective each baddha-jiva suffer and enjoy the same? That the situation is neither better or worse for any baddha-jiva on the whole?
I have explained it in this way to students (to partially solve the theodicy problem) when I'm invited to schools to inform about our tradition, but now some devotees told me I'm wrong and that it's about the free will.
Now I wait for the verdict. 
Audarya-lila Dasa - October 31, 2009 4:38 pm
Please accept my dandavats, all devotees.
I have a question about karma and the equality of the baddha-jivas.
Since karma is anadi, can you not say that from an eternal perspective each baddha-jiva suffer and enjoy the same? That the situation is neither better or worse for any baddha-jiva on the whole?
I have explained it in this way to students (to partially solve the theodicy problem) when I'm invited to schools to inform about our tradition, but now some devotees told me I'm wrong and that it's about the free will.
Now I wait for the verdict.
Because two things are eternal it does not follow that they are the same. The fact that all souls in the material world have beginningless karma does not lead to teh conclusion that they all suffer and enjoy the same. They are all individual and unique. The situation for the baddha jiva who has developed some sukriti through contact with devotees is in an infinitely better situaion than one who has no such sukriti. Those jivas who are conditioned by goodness are in a better situaion to develop sukriti or take advantage of association with saints than other jivas.
Free will is certainly the important part of the whole equation for all jivas. We are in the midst of the material sphere and certainly deepy conditioned but we do have out own volition and how we choose to think, feel and react is what determines how we progress.
What problem are you trying to solve? The idea that God is partial based on the varied circumstances and life situations people find themselves in?
Citta Hari Dasa - November 1, 2009 12:54 am
What problem are you trying to solve? The idea that God is partial based on the varied circumstances and life situations people find themselves in?
I believe so; he mentioned thodicy, which according to Dictionary.com means "a vindication of the divine attributes, particularly holiness and justice, in establishing or allowing the existence of physical and moral evil."
Guru-nistha Das - November 1, 2009 4:30 am
Hi Shyamananada,
Anadi means without beginning, but not without end. So in that sense it could be even said that it's "unfair" that some souls get beamed up to Goloka before others. Imagine how many jivas (well, unlimited number of them) have gone to Goloka before us although we all started from the same eternal state of ignorance?
In the Bhagavatam the word that describes the beginning of sukriti is yadricchaya, which basically means "by good luck". Vishvanatha Cakravasrti goes into more detail in his Madhurya Kadambini of what is the nature of that luck and if my memory serves me right, basically concludes that it's fully causeless and that madhyama adhikaris distribute it causelessly in the world. The point of bringing this up is that in one sense you could cause Krishna of being unfair when giving the initial sukriti to some and not others, because without that initial causeless injection-which has to come from beyond this world- there is absolutely no possibility of becoming interested in pursuing Krsna-Prema. And that, I believe, we can't explain from a human perspective. It just doesn't fit into our limited understanding of justice.
Guru-nistha Das - November 1, 2009 4:58 am
further clarification:
to get that initial spark of sukriti is not in any way connected to our free will. But I think it's better not to bring out this rather subtle point in talking to students and instead talk about our free choice. The subject of free will in the Gauidya tradition is in itself a huge topic that has been discussed here before and I suppose you just have to hope that the students won't start asking any super detailed questions about it because it's quite confusing! Good luck.
Shyamananda Das - November 1, 2009 10:33 am
Thank you, Audarya-lila, Citta Hari and Guru-nistha for replying and to others for taking time to read the thread.
Audarya-lila said: "What problem are you trying to solve? The idea that God is partial based on the varied circumstances and life situations people find themselves in?"
Citta Hari said: "I believe so; he mentioned theodicy, which according to Dictionary.com means "a vindication of the divine attributes, particularly holiness and justice, in establishing or allowing the existence of physical and moral evil."
People who have no knowledge about the law of reincarnation and karma question God by saying: "If God is good, how come some are born poor while others are born wealthy?". Then I answer "It has to do with what they did in their previous lives. If they were bad they suffer, if they were good, they enjoy". But then people can have the same doubt but in a wider vision. They can ask "But people are driven by circumstances to do what they do, how is that fair?". Then my answer have been that in the world of duality we constantly move from one side to the other. Suffering, enjoying, suffering, enjoying and so on. This I feel can be verified by Bhagavad-gita, 2.14. I'm trying to apply sastra yukti, knowing that kevala yukti will not lead to conclusive knowledge. But I admit my flaws in reasoning, and that I might be mistaken.
Audarya-lila said: "The situation for the baddha jiva who has developed some sukriti through contact with devotees is in an infinitely better situaion than one who has no such sukriti."
Guru-nistha said: "Anadi means without beginning, but not without end. So in that sense it could be even said that it's "unfair" that some souls get beamed up to Goloka before others."
In describing the law of karma for people who don't know much, I begin with only describing the karma system itself, without mentioning liberation from karma at all. And that's where I want to describe it as totally just. I can hardly see any free will in choosing between different enjoyments of this world. Coca cola or Pepsi? In my understanding free will is to choose between being ruled by either maha-maya or yoga-maya. But even there it's minute, non-absolute and dependent on sukriti.
Even if this would be wrong according to siddhanta, could it not be used for preaching anyway? I cannot see any danger in it.
Swami - November 2, 2009 12:30 pm
Karma is a reasonable theological answer to the suffering of the world that vindicates God. But the difficulty arises when the issue of infinite regress is brought up. To this the sastra replies "anadi." Then the example of our experience of the seed and the tree is cited (bija vrksa nyaya) to illustrate the fact that although the concept of anandi is hard to get one's head around, nonetheless we have examples form our everyday experience that the world works in this way. This reply seemed to satisfy the sages of yore but it my not satisfy everyone in today's world.
I have tried to address this problem in my Gita commentary on 14.5 in terms of the notion of sristi-lila. That might be helpful. This Sanga may also be helpful: