Tattva-viveka
Bhagyavan jiv, and even more fortunate one, or?
Devyah-pati Das SERBIA - April 16, 2010 8:47 am
The verse says - "Bramanda bramite kona bhagyavan jiv..."
At the time of receiving book from sankirtan devotee or
comming in the contact with the devotees, persons are by
their previous karma on different levels when we are speaking
in connection with gunas that they are in.
According to this logic the question rises regarding this
bhagyavan (fortunate) soul. Namely, if one is in satva guna
it is much easier for him to catch the point that devotees are
presenting to him, and another person that is in tamo guna
may have much more difficulties to do so.
All this brings to the conclusion that there are fortunate souls,
and even more fortunate ones who were in a higher state of
purity of mind and inteligence when they received message
of devotees. Those in tamo guna, or rajo guna can not be
blamed too much for missing the opportunity to immediately
step on the boat of salvation of Lord Chaitanya...
How to resolve this?
Madan Gopal Das - April 17, 2010 2:31 am
One's situation in the modes of material nature does not allow one to better accept bhakti. If this were the case, then there would be a hierarchy through which everyone would have to go through to eventually "get the mercy". You would have to start at the bottom and go all the way to the top according to the modes. Then the preachers would be justified in only reaching out to the brahmanas. Bhakti would be subservient to yoga, jnana, karma. But this is not the truth. On the contrary, we often find that those in the higher modes of material nature may be plagued by their philosophical minds, or as Gita states by enjoying a sense of happiness from their situation in sattva.
The verse you cite is saying that the souls are wandering through the brahmanda, sometimes going up and sometimes coming down - who knows where they are! But by the mercy of svarupa-sakti (bhakti-devi carried by the devotee) any soul anywhere may be blessed.
Bhakti is independent and is born of bhakti-sukrti, primarily the association of those who carry bhakti. This is how Jagai & Madhai became the targets of Nityananda Raya's preaching. Prabhupada searched out the bhakti-sukrti that was present in countless souls outside of India; "fallen" people.
Gaura's mercy was not available to just people in sattva while others missed the boat. Think of the contradictions; Sannyasis like Prakasananda and scholars like Sarvabhauma had a hard time at first getting the idea, thinking of Mahaprabhu as a sentimentalist. So many "lower" people have understood what "higher" people could not. The brahmanas wives in Krsna lila figured it out way before their husbands who were attached to their sattvic yajna... The list goes on and on...
Citta Hari Dasa - April 17, 2010 4:14 pm
Nice answer Madan. I think where the gunas come into play more is after the person has come in contact with bhakti. Their sraddha has been awakened, they're convinced that Krsna is svayam bhagavan, etc., and they take up vaidhi-bhakti. In the context of that, those with heavily tamasika samskaras are generally seen to have a harder time maintaining their practice, and heavily rajasika samskaras can make one distracted even while practicing, while a more sattvika disposition is clearly more conducive to sitting and chanting, or studying sastra, for example. So while bhakti is independent and goes to whomever she wants, once she goes there the gunas definitely affect how well one can apply oneself.
Devyah-pati Das SERBIA - April 17, 2010 7:06 pm
Nice answer Madan. I think where the gunas come into play more is after the person has come in contact with bhakti. Their sraddha has been awakened, they're convinced that Krsna is svayam bhagavan, etc., and they take up vaidhi-bhakti. In the context of that, those with heavily tamasika samskaras are generally seen to have a harder time maintaining their practice, and heavily rajasika samskaras can make one distracted even while practicing, while a more sattvika disposition is clearly more conducive to sitting and chanting, or studying sastra, for example. So while bhakti is independent and goes to whomever she wants, once she goes there the gunas definitely affect how well one can apply oneself.
Madan gopal prabhu gave beautiful answer and I accept it - independence of bhakti is established.
Still, I was looking for the answer you gave prabhu, since I noticed in the course of 20 years time
spent in bhakti yoga, that persons have more or less difficulty to maintain their practice.
Madan Gopal Das - April 17, 2010 10:09 pm
Good point Citta Hari. I actually think that even after bhakti has descended, one takes up practice and yes the samskara's are influencing the "mix" of bhakti the sadhaka practices, still one can be engaged fully in bhakti within their particular mix of the gunas. Yes, one sadhaka will have the samskaras, the influence of the modes to sit and chant or study sastra. Another will have the samskara and influence of the gunas to work hard in the garden all day and would fall asleep in class. Either has the potential for perfection in bhakti though. By good association I would argue that the gardener sadhaka could be engaged completely in bhakti by an expert sadhu. And one so inclined towards study and meditation could also be fully engaged in bhakti by an expert sadhu. That is the crux of it - the giver of bhakti, not one's qualification for sattva. This may be a reason for suggestion of accepting a guru of the same caste - one will be expertly engaged according to one's nature because it is similar to that of the guru. Just a thought...
Over-emphasis on this point aside, I think a philosophical foundation is essential and so once one has accepted bhakti marga they need some kind of continual nourishment (whatever they can take) to keep engaged and focused according to their nature. I think through the years I've seen two types of people fade away who were not properly engaged according to either category: some were demanded too much philosophically and mentally, whereas others could not be satisfied by simplistic philosophy. Thank krsna for expert preachers like GM. One can also see how souls are naturally filtered towards what/WHO will sustain their faith.
Citta Hari Dasa - April 17, 2010 11:31 pm
Spot-on, Madan. I had actually written on my previous post that at the end of the day what really matters is being under the guidance of a qualified sadhu, so I agree totally that one can attain perfection relative to one's samskaras if one is engaged properly. Then of course we have the cases where even if one is engaged according to one's guna and karma distraction is still there--plenty of people have been under GM's expert guidance and engaged properly who did not maintain their practice. Bhakti is independent but in most cases we still have to do the work--the guru can't do it for us. As SP said, we have to fly our own planes.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - April 18, 2010 1:43 pm
Spot-on, Madan. I had actually written on my previous post that at the end of the day what really matters is being under the guidance of a qualified sadhu, so I agree totally that one can attain perfection relative to one's samskaras if one is engaged properly. Then of course we have the cases where even if one is engaged according to one's guna and karma distraction is still there--plenty of people have been under GM's expert guidance and engaged properly who did not maintain their practice. Bhakti is independent but in most cases we still have to do the work--the guru can't do it for us. As SP said, we have to fly our own planes.
I agree with you Citta. Bhaki descends independently of any effort or state of our mind, but then to take advantage of it or co-operate with the descent is another thing. You can offend sadhus more if you are in tamasa and rajasa as you can see things clearly and this can block your progress, especially after blaspheming SSM. I think if one is influenced by sattva, one will be less likely to be so blasphemous to other sadhus and one cannot be influenced too much to follow a leader who does the same.
Vamsidhari Dasa - April 22, 2010 3:23 pm
By good association I would argue that the gardener sadhaka could be engaged completely in bhakti by an expert sadhu. And one so inclined towards study and meditation could also be fully engaged in bhakti by an expert sadhu. That is the crux of it - the giver of bhakti, not one's qualification for sattva. This may be a reason for suggestion of accepting a guru of the same caste - one will be expertly engaged according to one's nature because it is similar to that of the guru. Just a thought...
Over-emphasis on this point aside, I think a philosophical foundation is essential and so once one has accepted bhakti marga they need some kind of continual nourishment (whatever they can take) to keep engaged and focused according to their nature. I think through the years I've seen two types of people fade away who were not properly engaged according to either category: some were demanded too much philosophically and mentally, whereas others could not be satisfied by simplistic philosophy. Thank krsna for expert preachers like GM. One can also see how souls are naturally filtered towards what/WHO will sustain their faith.
I would argue, Madanji, that you are a perfect bhakti-gardener-pholosopher 
.
I am reminded of one of the GM's recent talks where he spoke of anarthas and their influence on progress. I am paraphrasing here, but GM takes a very generous view from what we can call an eternal perspective, and encourages those who feel that their progress is slow to think about "the distance traveled thus far, is much greater then the distance" we need to travel back home. Even with current difficulties we are always making progress especially if we take guidance from a qualified sadhu. Bhakti, as many other worthy endeavors, is not a solitary practice and it is hard to see one's true position in isolation. Sadhu sanga, sadhu sanga...
I can empathize with Devyah-pati prabhu's questions and how difficult it must be to feel "less qualified by nature" or "fallen" and powerless to remove one's impediments to progress. I think that the generosity of bhakti expressed in guru-kripa is more powerful then any mode of nature. Without guru-kripa how could we ever know bhakti?