I wanted to initiate a new on-going thread here. My idea is that every time the new Sanga newsletter comes out, we discuss some of the points further that have been made in the newsletter. This way we will get a better grasp on the topics answered by Guru Maharaja.
Okay, here we go:
Guru Maharaj writes:
"It should also be noted that
although Gaura is Krsna and Gadadhara is Radha, the two do not
externally relate to one another as Radha and Krsna do in their
Vraja-lila. Gadadhara sees Gaura internally as Krsna--Krsna trying to
experience the love of Radha that only Gadadhara knows. Thus Gadadhara
is there to assist his object of love in an appropriate, corresponding
form."
My questions is: Why wasn't Gadadhara's position in Mahaprabhu's antya-lila as prominent as was Svarupa Damodhara's or Ramananda Raya's? One would think that Mahaprabhu would have gotten the best assistance from Radha/Gadadhara in his tasting the height of Radha-bhava in the Gambhira.
an appropriate, correspondingform."
My questions is: Why wasn't Gadadhara's position in Mahaprabhu's antya-lila as prominent as was Svarupa Damodhara's or Ramananda Raya's? One would think that Mahaprabhu would have gotten the best assistance from Radha/Gadadhara in his tasting the height of Radha-bhava in the Gambhira.
Maybe since his/her bhava was stolen he was not able to express himself in relation to it as well as they could?
From what I have understood Gadadhara is Radha and therefore the most confidential servitor of Mahaprabhu. He served Mahaprabhu in the mood of dasya bhava perfectly as he understood Mahaprabhu's desire and was able to instruct him in SB, etc.
Gadadhara is Radha with her bhava covered so to speak and therefore it facilitated Mahaprabhu's experience of it. He could not be present at Gambhira because Mahaprabhu would not be able to experience the height of intense separation from Krsna in the presence of Gadadhara, who is Radha. Radha's presence would evoke his identity as Krsna.
A couple more questions:
I was surprised to read that Gadadhara serves Gaura in dasya bhava. Is his service still dasya although he sees Gaura internally as Krsna, the object of Radha's romantic love?
Another point I was thinking about is that was the kirtana at Srivasa anganam not done in the mood of separation by Mahaprabhu? If it was, wouldn't Gadadhara's presence have the same effect there as it would've had in the Gambira?
A couple more questions:
I was surprised to read that Gadadhara serves Gaura in dasya bhava. Is his service still dasya although he sees Gaura internally as Krsna, the object of Radha's romantic love?
Another point I was thinking about is that was the kirtana at Srivasa anganam not done in the mood of separation by Mahaprabhu? If it was, wouldn't Gadadhara's presence have the same effect there as it would've had in the Gambira?
Just a few thoughts.
All Mahaprabhu's associates serve in dasya-bhava. Any mood of madhurya-bhava expressed in his lila would be inordinate. Gadadhara being the best servitor from the standpoint of his identity as Srimati Radharani and who can best instruct Mahaprabhu in her mood and sentiments.
Mahaprabhu is defined by his mood of separation but at Srivas angam it was kept under wraps whereas in the Gambhira-lila it was unbridled as he was in samadhi. He had lost all external consciousness in his madness of separation.
Here is a question I have.
I realize that I described Gadadhara as Radha with her bhava covered. I am not sure if that is correct actually. GM writes in a very poetic way that it has been stolen which implies it is missing. I have heard it described both ways. If it is missing then is Gadadhara actually svayam sakti or a representation of Radha without her bhava?
Here is a question I have.
I realize that I described Gadadhara as Radha with her bhava covered. I am not sure if that is correct actually. GM writes in a very poetic way that it has been stolen which implies it is missing. I have heard it described both ways. If it is missing then is Gadadhara actually svayam sakti or a representation of Radha without her bhava?
From what I've heard Gadadhara is Radha with her bhava stolen, thus he could not show the vamya-bhava when Mahaprahbu tried to elicit it from him. Your last question is a tricky one. He can't be a representation because then that would be something different, like an expansion, which we know is not the case. But I suppose it could be said that if one's bhava is not present then one is no longer the same either. One and different, perhaps--Radha but, as SSM said, in the mood of Rukmini and therefore submissive.
From what I've heard Gadadhara is Radha with her bhava stolen, thus he could not show the vamya-bhava when Mahaprahbu tried to elicit it from him. Your last question is a tricky one. He can't be a representation because then that would be something different, like an expansion, which we know is not the case. But I suppose it could be said that if one's bhava is not present then one is no longer the same either. One and different, perhaps--Radha but, as SSM said, in the mood of Rukmini and therefore submissive.
These are good points. Gadadhara-tattva is indeed deep. I guess you could also say that Gadadhara is Radha but not in the context of Krsna-lila. Gaura-lila takes her identity to a whole new height of complexity as is the case with everything in Mahaprabhu's lila.
These are good points. Gadadhara-tattva is indeed deep. I guess you could also say that Gadadhara is Radha but not in the context of Krsna-lila. Gaura-lila takes her identity to a whole new height of complexity as is the case with everything in Mahaprabhu's lila.
Yeah, Gaura-lila is complex for sure. I once read that SSM said he realized Radha-Krsna first, then Mahaprabhu. That's pretty telling.
All Mahaprabhu's associates serve in dasya-bhava. Any mood of madhurya-bhava expressed in his lila would be inordinate. Gadadhara being the best servitor from the standpoint of his identity as Srimati Radharani and who can best instruct Mahaprabhu in her mood and sentiments.
I have certainly heard it many times that everyone serves in dasya-bhava in Gaura-lila but it's hitting me in a new way now. Normally one's sthayi-bhava would correspond with one's "external" characteristics in the lila, but in Gaura-lila it's different. Even Gadadhara serves Mahaprabhu in dasya although that's not his inner sentiment.
And what about Saci and Jagannatha Mishra, are they not in vatsalya-bhava?
I have certainly heard it many times that everyone serves in dasya-bhava in Gaura-lila but it's hitting me in a new way now. Normally one's sthayi-bhava would correspond with one's "external" characteristics in the lila, but in Gaura-lila it's different. Even Gadadhara serves Mahaprabhu in dasya although that's not his inner sentiment.And what about Saci and Jagannatha Mishra, are they not in vatsalya-bhava?
The way I tend to conceptualize these things is in terms of layers. One thing is going on in the lila and if you peel that layer back there is something else taking place. At least this helps me get a bit of a grasp on these deep concepts.
I wanted to initiate a new on-going thread here. My idea is that every time the new Sanga newsletter comes out, we discuss some of the points further that have been made in the newsletter. This way we will get a better grasp on the topics answered by Guru Maharaja.Okay, here we go:
Guru Maharaj writes:
"It should also be noted that
although Gaura is Krsna and Gadadhara is Radha, the two do not
externally relate to one another as Radha and Krsna do in their
Vraja-lila. Gadadhara sees Gaura internally as Krsna--Krsna trying to
experience the love of Radha that only Gadadhara knows. Thus Gadadhara
is there to assist his object of love in an appropriate, corresponding
form."
My questions is: Why wasn't Gadadhara's position in Mahaprabhu's antya-lila as prominent as was Svarupa Damodhara's or Ramananda Raya's? One would think that Mahaprabhu would have gotten the best assistance from Radha/Gadadhara in his tasting the height of Radha-bhava in the Gambhira.
Gadadhara does seem to be marginalized in the Puri lila in comparison to the roles Ramananda and Svarupa Damodara play, whereas in Nadiya he plays the prominent role. One way to think about this is that as the lila progresses Mahaprabhu progresses in his experience/theft of Radha bhava, leaving Gadadhara more and more bereft. And in Puri is it clear that Gadadhara is left with the bhava of Rukmini. This comes out in a prominent way in the lila Vallabhacarya and it is also clear throughout the Puri lila that Gadadhara is for the most part submissive in this setting (although he does break his vow of ksetra sanyasa at one point just outside of Puri). Furthermore it is Ramananda and Svarupa who in a sense assist Mahaprabu in his "theft" of Radha bhava by allowing him to steal it so to speak. Radha is fearful of what it will do to Krsna and she places the issue before Lalita and Visakha. Thus they carefully tender to his desire in consideration of her concerns.
Gadadhara does seem to be marginalized in the Puri lila in comparison to the roles Ramananda and Svarupa Damodara play, whereas in Nadiya he plays the prominent role. One way to think about this is that as the lila progresses Mahaprabhu progresses in his experience/theft of Radha bhava, leaving Gadadhara more and more bereft. And in Puri is it clear that Gadadhara is left with the bhava of Rukmini. This comes out in a prominent way in the lila Vallabhacarya and it is also clear throughout the Puri lila that Gadadhara is for the most part submissive in this setting (although he does break his vow of ksetra sanyasa at one point just outside of Puri). Furthermore it is Ramananda and Svarupa who in a sense assist Mahaprabu in his "theft" of Radha bhava by allowing him to steal it so to speak. Radha is fearful of what it will do to Krsna and she places the issue before Lalita and Visakha. Thus they carefully tender to his desire in consideration of her concerns.
That's a super nice explanation. Thank you, Guru Maharaj.
Sorry for my ignorance, but what's the instance with Vallabhacarya that you refer to? That Gadadhara gave diksa to Vallabhacarya because Rukmini is a manifestation of Candravali?
One way to think about this is that as the lila progresses Mahaprabhu progresses in his experience/theft of Radha bhava, leaving Gadadhara more and more bereft.
How then does Mahaprabhu experience full Radha bhava in aprakata lila where he does not accept sannyasa?
How then does Mahaprabhu experience full Radha bhava in aprakata lila where he does not accept sannyasa?
The tasting in the prakata lila is also for teaching how to do so to others. His sannyasa is for this.
Just a few thoughts.
Mahaprabhu is defined by his mood of separation but at Srivas angam it was kept under wraps whereas in the Gambhira-lila it was unbridled as he was in samadhi. He had lost all external consciousness in his madness of separation.
Mahaprabhu is teaching how to enter the kirtana at Srivasangan when his retires at the Gambhira. There he is tasting Radha bhava in separation. The experience of Srivasangan is to the known via the Gambhira. Srivasangan is the goal.
Mahaprabhu is teaching how to enter the kirtana at Srivasangan when his retires at the Gambhira. There he is tasting Radha bhava in separation. The experience of Srivasangan is to the known via the Gambhira. Srivasangan is the goal.
Thank you for bringing this out Guru Maharaja. This seems to be a common misconception. There is a tendency to view the Gambhira-lila as the goal as Mahaprabhu is demonstrating such extreme absorption in seperation. I remember some of the first questions I ever posed to you coming from ISKCON were in this regard and I am still always coming back to it and trying to understand it.
I have certainly heard it many times that everyone serves in dasya-bhava in Gaura-lila but it's hitting me in a new way now. Normally one's sthayi-bhava would correspond with one's "external" characteristics in the lila, but in Gaura-lila it's different. Even Gadadhara serves Mahaprabhu in dasya although that's not his inner sentiment.And what about Saci and Jagannatha Mishra, are they not in vatsalya-bhava?
But Gadadhara's inner sentiment is expressed outwardly in a way that corresponds with the shape that the object of his love as taken. Radha's love for Krsna is not more than Gadadhara's love for Gaura. It is more intimate than Visnupriya's love for Gaura.
Gaura's associates serve him in dasya bhava tinged with friendship. But of course he has to have a mother and father and he also has a wife. This is special, as in the case of Ramacandra. All of Rama's people serve him in dasya, but we find brotherly love in Laksman, and parental and wedded love in his parents and Sita respectively. So parental love, etc is there but only for these few. For the most part it is not open for others to attain (we cannot exclude the possibility of exceptions). But our potential lives in dasya bhava for Guara and sakhya or madhurya for Krsna.
I have certainly heard it many times that everyone serves in dasya-bhava in Gaura-lila but it's hitting me in a new way now. Normally one's sthayi-bhava would correspond with one's "external" characteristics in the lila, but in Gaura-lila it's different. Even Gadadhara serves Mahaprabhu in dasya although that's not his inner sentiment.And what about Saci and Jagannatha Mishra, are they not in vatsalya-bhava?
But Gadadhara's inner sentiment is expressed outwardly in a way that corresponds with the shape that the object of his love as taken. Radha's love for Krsna is not more than Gadadhara's love for Gaura. It is more intimate than Visnupriya's love for Gaura.
Gaura's associates serve him in dasya bhava tinged with friendship. But of course he has to have a mother and father and he also has a wife. This is special, as in the case of Ramacandra. All of Rama's people serve him in dasya, but we find brotherly love in Laksman, and parental and wedded love in his parents and Sita respectively. So parental love, etc is there but only for these few. For the most part it is not open for others to attain (we cannot exclude the possibility of exceptions). But our potential lies in dasya bhava for Guara and sakhya or madhurya for Krsna.
Thank you for your insight into these points, Guru Maharaja! Very enlightening indeed.
But Gadadhara's inner sentiment is expressed outwardly in a way that corresponds with the shape that the object of his love as taken. Radha's love for Krsna is not more than Gadadhara's love for Gaura. It is more intimate than Visnupriya's love for Gaura.
Gaura's associates serve him in dasya bhava tinged with friendship. But of course he has to have a mother and father and he also has a wife. This is special, as in the case of Ramacandra. All of Rama's people serve him in dasya, but we find brotherly love in Laksman, and parental and wedded love in his parents and Sita respectively. So parental love, etc is there but only for these few. For the most part it is not open for others to attain (we cannot exclude the possibility of exceptions). But our potential lies in dasya bhava for Guara and sakhya or madhurya for Krsna.
Thank you Guru Maharaja. The topic is so high that it will take me few life times to understand it more...
Regarding vatsalya bhava for Gauranga Mahaprabhu- CC mentions one more person in this mood, at least in manifest lila. I forgot her name but she was sister of Raghava Pandita and every year she was preparing different sweets and medicines for the Lord and Raghava Pandita was taking them to Puri.
Thank you Guru Maharaja. The topic is so high that it will take me few life times to understand it more...
Regarding vatsalya bhava for Gauranga Mahaprabhu- CC mentions one more person in this mood, at least in manifest lila. I forgot her name but she was sister of Raghava Pandita and every year she was preparing different sweets and medicines for the Lord and Raghava Pandita was taking them to Puri.
That would be Damayanti,, but I do not believe it is not stated that she served him in vatsalya rati.
That would be Damayanti,, but I do not believe it is not stated that she served him in vatsalya rati.
Yes, I checked the text and it doesn`t mention vatsalya rati directly. It seemed to me that those verses were indicating vatsalya rati but I guess, servant could have such feelings too:
CCAntya 10.19-20
Because of her natural love for Śri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Damayanti considered the Lord an ordinary human being. therefore she thought that he would become sick by overeating and there would be mucus within his abdomen.
Because of sincere affection, she thought that eating sukuta would cure the Lord`s disease. Considering these affectionate thoughts of Damayanti, the Lord was very pleased.