Fact: According to scriptures we made a choice to enjoy this material world and because of that left Vaikuëöha to be born in material world. Now we understand our mistake and trying spiritually progress to go back home. If we return to Godhead we will never die and never take birth within the material world again.
Question: If we return to Godhead, because we will not loose our individuality nor our free choice what prevents us from falling again?
BG 5.15 – Purport:
Because he is a living soul, he has the capacity to desire by his free will. Such desire is fulfilled only by the omnipotent Lord. And so, when the living entity is bewildered in his desires, the Lord allows him to fulfill those desires, but the Lord is never responsible for the actions and reactions of the particular situation which may be desired.
SB 5.4.5 – Purport:
Çréla Viçvanätha Cakravarté points out that the word mahimä means returning to the spiritual world, back home, back to Vaikuëöha. Çré Çukadeva says that the word mahimä means that the devotee attains the qualities of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. This is called sadharma, or “the same quality.” Just as Kåñëa is never born and never dies, His devotees who return to Godhead never die and never take birth within the material world.
Krsna Book, chapter 87 Prayers by the Personified Vedas:
Similarly, the living entities who have come down to this material world have made their own choice to enjoy this material world. It is not that Kåñëa sent them into this world. The material world was created for the enjoyment of living entities who wanted to give up the eternal service of the Lord to become the supreme enjoyer themselves. According to Vaiñëava philosophy, when a living entity desires to gratify his senses and forgets the service of the Lord, he is given a place in the material world to act freely according to his desire, and therefore he creates a condition of life in which he either enjoys or suffers.
P.S. Wound be nice to have "Balaram" added to the font options for the forum so we can use diacritical characters.
Dear Yuri
Pranams
Unfortunately, the statement you presented as fact is not so according to Guru, Sadhu, and Sastra.
At times, Prabhupada would say things that indicated that we had previously been with Krsna but that we fell from that position, a position which we will again take up once we go "back to Godhead".
This hypothesis, generally presented by ISKCON, is fraught with problems: If Vaikuntha is free from all material conditions, how can one become envious of God and desire to enjoy for ones self? If one is engaged in the self-forgetful ecstasy of service within Krsna lila, at which point does one think "actually, I would like to try and enjoy" etc etc.
As many quotes can be produced from Srila Prabhupada to support this hypothesis, as many can be produced where he says the exact opposite. So which to accept?
We must judge seemingly contradictory statements against the authority of Guru, sadhu, and Sastra, By doing so we can understand what was meant by certain ambiguous statements, and also how to harmonize those not in concordance with the previous authorities.
We cannot accept that Srila Prabhupada was going against Gaudiya siddhanta so we must take a careful look at why he would say such things.
The Jiva is a particle of the tatastha sakti, the marginal potency of Krsna. This particular sakti emanates from Maha Visnu, an expansion of Balarama, who embodies the priciple of service to Krsna, and as such the Jiva is inherently an eternal servant of Krsna, although in an undeveloped and unspecified sense.
As tatastha, we are unlike matter, since we are conscious, but unlike spirit we have the tendancy to be overwhelmed by matter and come under its influence. This is how we find ourselves in this predicament.
We are, however, more akin to spirit but subservient to it at the same time. Thus our natural position is as a servant to Krsna, the ultimate cause of all causes.
The question of how and why we came to this world naturally arises, and can't be dealt with too easily. Srila Prabhupada was essentially taking the road of least resistance, by stating that it was our choice, in order to take any possible blame off Krsna for sending us here, as a comprehensive answer is almost imposible to give.
We seek to ask why?, but sometimes why is not a question we can ask.
Guru maharaj has dealt with this question in previous sangas:
Q. Are some souls created weak, and thus meant to fall down into material existence? Does Krsna put these weak souls into suffering and then make them take the blame for their own condition?
A. The baddha jiva (bound soul) who is implicated in anadi (beginingless) karma is part and parcel of Krsna, not a completely independent being. Can Krsna be blamed for doing something to himself when no one other than him exists in the first place? This is lila, which is not subject to reason. Play transcends reason, yet if you become a conscious member of his play you will understand. As I said in a previous Sanga: "We have nothing to say in the matter. Any objection is based on the illusion that we are independent from God."
Otherwise, it is Maha Visnu who desires to become many and thus manifests as the baddha jiva. It is said that the jiva is conditioned because of Visnu's proximity and relationship with maya. To remedy the problem resulting from his involvement with maya arising from his desire to become many, he enters the world of maya (as the avatara) and saves the baddha jiva.
Srila Prabhupada also states:
The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag 3.16.26)
This ordinary living being is of two kinds—nitya-baddha or nitya-mukta. One is eternally conditioned and the other eternally liberated. The eternally liberated living beings are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world. (Bhag 5.11.12)
The nitya-siddha devotees never fall down to the region of the material atmosphere, even though they sometimes come onto the material plane to execute the mission of the Lord. (Bhag 3.3.26)
Therefore it is to be understood that when Jaya and Vijaya descended to this material world, they came because there was something to be done for the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Otherwise it is a fact that no one falls from Vaikuntha. (Bhag 7.1.35)
Pure devotional service is so spiritually relishable that a devotee becomes automatically uninterested in material enjoyment. That is the sign of perfection in progressive devotional service. A pure devotee continuously remembers the lotus feet of Lord Sri Krsna and does not forget Him even for a moment, not even in exchange for all the opulence of the three worlds. (Bhag 1.5.19)
There are living entities, their number is greater. Nitya-mukta, ever liberated. They live in the spiritual world, Vaikuntha planets. Nitya-mukta. Nitya-mukta means eternally liberated. They never come down in this material world. And we are nitya-baddha-ever conditioned, eternally conditioned. (Bhag lecture, 1973, Mayapur)
This next quote states that we have never been with Krsna previously:
The mature devotees, who have completely executed Krsna consciousness, are immediately transferred to the universe where Krsna is appearing. In that universe the devotees get their first opportunity to associate with Krsna personally and directly. (Krsna book, ch 28, p186)
In answer to your question regarding the free will aspect of the Jiva, this is true to some extent. We have minute free will which we are presently engaging in relation to maya. As such we are bound by her and almost unable to act freely due to our Karma (what a mess!).
When we engage our free will in relation to Krsna however, we will ultimately come under the shelter of his svarupa sakti (internal potency), which facilitates the lila, and thus we will be bound to krsna by the ropes of love.
From this there will be no desire to struggle free, only to be bound ever increasingly.
I hope this sheds some light.
In service
Dayal Govinda dasa brahmacari
I hope this sheds some light.
Well, I feel like a high-schooler whose teacher in the middle of lesson about Newton's Laws decided to talk about String Theory -- my small brain just exploded. This information completely changes everything. It’s much more complicated than I thought it was, ignorance is truly bliss. Poor blind conditioned soul, now I feel even smaller then before, the Lila is unimaginably huge!
If I understand correctly, all of us are part of tatastha-sakti (marginal potency, jiva-sakti) which lays between bahiranga-sakti (external potency, material maya-sakti) and antaranga-sakti (internal potency, spiritual cit-sakti), the goal is to move from jiva-bhuta (fallible) to brahma-bhuta (infallible) state by being under control of antaranga-sakti. It looks like there is two ways to rich that goal: by self-realization which might take millions of lifes, because even demigods are conditioned souls, or by Grace of Krsna which is instantaneous.
Bg 18.66Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear.
But how do you surrender with highest sincerity? I believe the sincerity is the key. You can say "I surrender" and even make yourself believe you did, but how do you really kill your independent spirit and mind which always questions the authority? How do you truly surrender?
But how do you surrender with highest sincerity? I believe the sincerity is the key. You can say "I surrender" and even make yourself believe you did, but how do you really kill your independent spirit and mind which always questions the authority? How do you truly surrender?
That's a good question. Sridhara Maharaja always said sincerity was invincible, and yes we can agree, but how do we truly embrace that selfless giving.
Krsna says sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja, and he implores us to give up everything and just surrender unto him. We've all had problems with surrender, but from what I've seen of those who have been truly successful in embracing that - well, they seem to have taken that great leap into the unknown, trusting Krsna and his representatives in their entirety, and told the ego to take permanent residence in a locked cupboard. Difficult, but I have seen people do this, wholeheartedly.
I can't speak about philosophy, because I'm not good at it, but these are my observations, practically, from life. Of course, it sounds so simple when I write about it, but from my own experience of it, I am sure the psychology of dying to live, of killing off the ego, is very complex. Essentially, it's self-assassination, killing off all we identify as "me" and "mine". Very hard. But, for the sincere seeker, Krsna promises he will give all that they need:
ananyas cintayanto mam ye janah paryupasate /
tesam nityabhiyuktanam yoga-ksemam vahamy aham //
"But those who worship Me with devotion, meditating on My transcendental form--to them I carry what they lack and preserve what they have." (Bg. 9.2)
...there are so many similar promises in the Gita (e.g. 10.10), we just need to listen when Krsna implores us "Please believe me!":
man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru /
mam evaisyasi satyam te pratijane priyo 'si me //
"Always think of Me and become My devotee. Worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend." (Bg. 18.65)
Ys., Rama Kesava
Dear Yuri
Sorry for the information overload, I felt that the question justified it though.
In answer to your question
But how do you surrender with highest sincerity? I believe the sincerity is the key. You can say "I surrender" and even make yourself believe you did, but how do you really kill your independent spirit and mind which always questions the authority? How do you truly surrender?
I will advise you to do one thing. Beg, Borrow, Buy, or Steal (just for emphasis of course) a copy of 'Follow the Angels' by Srila Sridhara maharaja. All that you could need to know about how to surrender and eliminate our false sense of 'I' and 'Mine' is in that book.
Dayal Govinda dasa
The basic idea of surrender in the Gita—sarva dharman parityaja—is to give up an religious puresute (dharma)—the worship of any other god or goddess— and serve only Krsna. Krsna calls upon us to serve him alone. Faith that by doing so one is relieved of any other debt amounts to eligibility for treading the path of bhakti. In this sense, bhakti proceeds from saranagati. As we engage in hearing, chanting rembering, etc. under the care of a guardian, gradualy as our taste for hearing and chanting increases and sambadha jnana both theoretical and practical is acquired, saranagati intensifies. So our concern should be towfold:
1.Take exclusive shelter of Krsna, forgoing other spiritual practices, etc.
2. Begin a guru guided life of hearing and chanting, and evaluate your progress by the extent to which your interest in hearing and chanting is increasing. A saranagata will feel himself making progress daily. If you do not feel like this, you have to do wahtever it takes to focus your mind (give your heart) to your nama japa. mantra and kirtana. Nama and mantra are the real gifts of sri guru. Use them wisely, they are your real wealth.
I've found some interesting quotes I would like to share with you, which might shine some light on the subject.
Jaiva-dharma by Srila Bhaktivinoda ThakurChapter Fifteen
Vrajanatha: How does the Vedanta philosophy define the word "tatastha?"
Babaji: The place where a river's waters meet with the land of the shore is called the 'tata'. The 'tata' is then the place where water meets the land. What is the nature of this 'tata'? It is like the thinnest of threads that runs along the boundary of land and water. A 'tata' is like the finest of lines, so small that the gross material eyes cannot even see it. In this example the spiritual world is like the water and the material world is like the land. The thin line that separates them is the 'tata'. That boundary place is the abode of the individual spirit souls. The individual spirit souls are like atomic particles of sunlight. The souls can see both the spiritual world and the material world created by Maya. The Lord's spiritual potency, cit-shakti, is limitless, and the Lord's material potency, maya-shakti, is gigantic. Standing between them, the individual spirit soul is very tiny. The individual spirit souls are manifested from the tatastha-shakti of Lord Krishna. Therefore the souls are naturally situated on the boundary (tatastha) of matter and spirit).
Vrajanatha: What is this 'tatastha' nature of the individual souls?
Babaji: Standing between them, the soul can see these two worlds. The 'tatastha' nature of the souls refers to the fact that they must be under the control of one of these two potencies. The actual place of the 'tata' (shore) may change. What was once dry land may be covered with water, and what was once covered by water may again become dry land. If he turns his gaze upon Lord Krishna, the soul comes under the shelter of Lord Krishna's spiritual potency. But if he turns away from Krishna and turns his gaze to the material potency, maya, then the soul is caught in maya's trap. That is what is meant by 'the soul's tatastha nature'.
and another one
Jaiva-dharma by Srila Bhaktivinoda ThakurChapter Sixteen
Vrajanatha: Lord Krishna is supremely merciful. Why, then, did He make the individual spirit souls so weak that they fall into Maya's world?
Babaji: As He is merciful, so Krishna is also playful. Desiring many different kinds of pastimes with individual spirit souls in many different conditions of life, He created many exalted conditions, which culminate in 'maha-bhava' great ecstatic spiritual love for the Lord., and He also created, with the help of Sri Radha's expansion Maya, the degraded material conditions of life, which reach their nadir in 'ahankara' (the soul's misidentification with matter). In this way, by the influence of Sri Radha there is the attainment of limitless transcendental bliss, and by the influence of Maya there is a descent into the lower depths. The souls that thus enter Maya's abyss are not interested in their own spiritual well-being. They are averse to Lord Krishna and interested in their own selfish pleasure. Thus they go down lower and lower. However, supremely merciful Lord Krishna sends His own personal associates from His own spiritual world into the material world to make these souls favorable to Him and to lift them out of the abyss. In this way some of the fallen souls gradually become elevated and eventually return to the spiritual world, where they become eternal associates of the Lord.
Vrajanatha: Why must the individual souls suffer so the Lord can enjoy pastimes like these?
Babaji: What should be said is this: It is by the great mercy of the Lord that the individual souls have free will. Why not speak in that way? Inanimate matter is very lowly and unimportant because it has no free will. It is because they have free will that the individual souls can become masters of the world of matter. "Pain" and "pleasure" are two destinations the mind can attain. What you and I may call "pain", another person, who is attached to it, may call "pleasure". All material pleasures bring only pain at the end. They do not lead to anything but that. Therefore a person attached to material pleasures becomes unhappy at the end. When that unhappiness becomes very acute, the soul begins to desire happiness that is not mixed with sufferings. From that desire comes intelligence, and from that intelligence comes the spirit of inquiry. From the spirit of inquiry comes association with saintly persons, from association with saintly persons comes faith in spiritual life, and from faith in spiritual life one becomes gradually elevated. In this way what began as pain became at the end the giver of auspicious happiness. When it is heated and burnished, impure gold becomes pure. In the same way, when they suffer in Maya's material world, the impure souls averse to Lord Krishna and yearning to enjoy maya become purified. That this suffering turns into the giver of happiness is the mercy of Lord Krishna. Therefore they who are far-sighted see that these sufferings of the conditioned souls eventually bring auspicious happiness. They who are short sighted cannot see that. They see only sufferings.
Vrajanatha: Although they may bring happiness at the end, for the present the conditioned souls' sufferings are very painful. Could not the all-powerful Lord invent a different path, one without these sufferings?
Babaji: Lord Krishna enjoys many different kinds of wonderful pastimes. This is one of His wonderful pastimes. A person who is supremely independent can enjoy many different kinds of pastimes, and this may be one of them. Why not? If the Lord has every kind of pastime, then no pastime may be rejected. If one pastime is substituted for another, then still some kind of troubles must be expected. Lord Krishna is the supreme person and the creator. Everyone is subject to His will. If one person is subject to another's will, is there not some difficulty in that? If that difficulty eventually leads to happiness, then it is no difficulty at all. Why do you say it is suffering and difficulty? If to expand Lord Krishna's pastimes the individual souls go through some difficulties, the difficulties are only happiness. Lord Krishna's pastimes are naturally full of bliss. If an individual soul of his own free will voluntarily leaves those pastimes and enters the world of Maya and accepts the sufferings there, then if anyone is at fault it is the individual soul who is at fault. Krishna is not at fault.
Vrajanatha: In that situation, what is the harm that Lord Krishna does not give the soul free will? Krishna knows everything. Therefore Krishna knows if a certain soul will misuse his free will and bring suffering to himself. In that situation it is cruel of Krishna to give such a person free will. Is it not?
Babaji: Free will is a precious jewel. In the material world there are many inanimate material objects. None of them were given the jewel of free will. That is why inanimate objects are lowly and unimportant. If he had not been given free will, the individual soul would be lowly and unimportant, just like inanimate objects. The individual soul is a tiny particle of spirit. Whatever qualities spirit has, the soul must also have. Free will is one of the qualities of spirit. Spirit can never be separated from its eternal qualities. Therefore, as a tiny particle of spirit, the soul must have free will. It is because they have free will that the individual souls are superior to inanimate matter and are the masters of the material world. The souls, who all have free will, are all the dear servants of Lord Krishna. When they misuse that free will and enter the world of maya, merciful Krishna weeps to see how they are suffering. Eager to deliver them, He follows the individual souls into the material world. Ware that the souls will not see His nectarean pastimes in the material world, He brings His inconceivable pastimes there. Seeing that the conditioned souls do not understand His pastimes, he descends to Nabadwip and teaches them about His form, qualities, and pastimes and about His own holy name, which is the best way for spiritual advancement, and He also teaches them by acting the role of His won devotee. Baba, how can you place the blame on merciful Krishna? Even though His mercy is fathomless, you remain unfortunate and very pathetic.
In order to try and bring this topic to a conclusion I will present some more information from the book "In Vaikuntha not even the leaves fall", from Baladeva vidyabhusana's commentary on Vs 2.1.35, and from Guru maharaja.
The first point I would like to make is that the previous acaryas never came up against this problem. In 'leaves' the authors clearly point out that prior to Bhaktivinoda Thakura none of our acaryas had written about the problem of the origin of the Jiva, It was simply accepted that the Jivas karma is 'anadi' (beginningless) and that was enough to answer the question, the real issue being that Bhakti is the solution to all the miseries of Material life.
As Guru maharaja himself states:
Before the time of Bhaktivinoda Thakura all of our acaryas explained in accordance with scripture that the materially conditioned soul's karma is anadi (beginningless), and thus his 'fallen' condition under the influence of karma has no beginning, while it can come to an end. Bhaktivinoda Thakura himself sings 'anadi karma phale. . .' However, the Thakura and his followers have explained the term anadi non-traditionally, perhaps for the sake of wide scale propaganda. Bhaktivinoda Thakura explains that anadi means a beginning that is outside of the jurisdiction of time.
The problem comes when this concept of 'anadi karma' is brought into western 'rational 'thought since this word has no appropriate english counterpart.
We tend to see things in terms of beginning, middle, and end. Nothing in our experience is beginningless or endless, anything that seems to be can usually be explained as being a really, really, long time either in the past or future, and thus we have no reference point for something without beginning or end, it leaves us feeling a little unsteady. Hence we often think that there must be a beginning to time, a 'first' creation' when we received our first dose of karma, it is just too long ago to talk about and thus 'seems' beginningless. It is similar to thinking that "there are infinite jivas" just means that there are too many to count.
Without any beginning is, however, exactly is what is meant by 'anadi'.
In his commentary to the above mentioned verse from Vedanta sutra, Baladeva counters an objection to the theory of Karma which states that karma does not fully answer the problem of suffering in this world as it raises yet more questions. Either God created the each Jiva differently, and hence is guilty of partiality, or there is no explanation for how Jivas choose different paths in life, which may lead them to suffer or enjoy appropriately, if they are all created equally.
Baladeva answers that the Jiva and its subsequent Karma is 'anadi', just like Brahman, thus there is no fault on God's part since every result of karma that the Jiva either suffers or enjoys comes from previous actions. He then raises an objection by stating that this argument suffers from the logical fault of regressus in infinitum (infinite regression), but this he does not accept due to there being example found in common reason:
Which comes first, the seed or the tree?
Why does Bhaktivinoda not simply take this course in his Jaiva Dharma?
It is suggested by the authors of 'leaves' that the Thakura was writing for the common man and thus presenting siddhanta in a novel way (double entendre intended).
Guru maharaja says of this:
Acaryas offer different explanations in consideration of their audience. Such is the nature of preaching. What is common among all of these explanations is the attempt to exonerate God from any fault for the suffering of souls in the material world. In my experience, all answers to this question fall short of entirely satisfying the intellect, thus emphasis should be placed on the fact of our material conditioning and the means to remedy it, more than on explaining its origins to the satisfaction of the intellect.
The quotes supplied by Yuri are sections in which the Jiva is explained to have emanated from the tatastha region and had a choice of the spiritual or material worlds.
Guru maharaja states:
He locates the jiva in tatastha, a marginal position in-between the cit and mayic worlds, form where the jivatma enters one world or the other. He cites two statements from the Upanisads in support of this (I have never been able to find one of them). Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura followed this same line of thought, whereas my Guru Maharaja, Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, sometimes seemed to indicate that the jiva falls from lila, and at other times, that it does not.
Perhaps his view can be harmonized if we consider the sristi lila of the Lord, which involves the jiva and karma, and which is itself anadi in the traditional sense. I have chosen this approach, one that is in harmony with the previous acaryas. In this understanding, the materially conditioned soul is a particle of the tatastha sakti of God, which emanates from Mahavisnu at the time of creation (srsti lila). The creation itself is one segment of the beginningless cycle of creation/annihilation. With each creation the jivatmas in human form are afforded the opportunity to choose between the mayic world and the cit world as it is explained in the scripture and represented by saints.
Why is karma anadi? Because the Lord himself and his sristi lila are anadi, and this lila involves karma, the principle of justice. The Lord defers to this principle in general. If he did not, he would be faulted for not being just. Yet he is also merciful, and thus sometimes he overrides karma by bestowing bhakti, or granting mukti. Without the principle of karma there would be no mercy. If the Lord had no mercy, he would not be worthy of the highest regard.
In all of this one must understand that we are but particles of one of God's saktis. We are not independent from him. His will is the background of our conditioning, and this is lila. In lila one agrees to abide by the will of God in all circumstances. Indeed, one surrenders his own will to the will of God. Attempting to do otherwise is the folly of what we call material life.
Guru maharaja also explains elsewhere (I can't locate it in the sanga archives at present) that there is no 'tatastha loka', tatastha is a way of describing the nature of the jiva, i.e. that it is borderline between matter and spirit. As I said before, it consists of consciousness and is conscious (as is spirit), but has the tendency for being overwhelmed by maya and thus is neither one thing nor the other.
I would recommend reading the sanga archives for more information and trying to get hold of a copy of 'leaves' which, although banned in ISKCON, should be available somewhere on the net.
In closing I would like to introduce an interesting statement by Ramanuja from his Sri Bhasya (I believe). He states that there are 2 possible ways for the Jiva to fall from Vaikuntha. Due to ignorance it makes a bad decision and comes back here, or, Visnu sends it back to the material world.
Both of these possibilities are rejected by Ramanuja as never happening. The possibilities exist in theory, but the nature of Vaikuntha doesn't allow such to actually take place, such is the love of the devotee for the Lord, and the Lord for the devotee.
In service
Dayal Govinda dasa brahmacari.