Tattva-viveka
Eternal followers of SP?
Devyah-pati Das SERBIA - June 18, 2010 4:26 pm
Is there such thing, or better to say
persons who are eternal followers
of Srila Prabhupad?
Devotees speak of this sometimes,
but I never heard some more detailed
explanation on this topic...
Citta Hari Dasa - June 26, 2010 1:55 pm
Is there such thing, or better to saypersons who are eternal followers
of Srila Prabhupad?
Devotees speak of this sometimes,
but I never heard some more detailed
explanation on this topic...
I'll give a brief answer, since it's a bit of a complex topic and there are different ways of thinking about it.
It depends how you mean "eternal followers." If one considers SP to be a nitya-siddha who came from the lila to do outreach then I suppose some of his people could have come with him. Why not? But if we take him at his word that he was a sadhana-siddha then there must be a different meaning.
In Prabhupada's worldwide outreach campaign he attracted all sorts of people to Vaisnavism, some of whom clearly had a level of faith in him far beyond the general mass of his disciples. They understood him on a deeper level, and became interested in his inner life and aspire to be with him in the lila. That of course means they are attracted to the same rasa that he is in (priya-narma sakhya-rasa), and when they are admitted into the lila they will join him in his group and serve Krsna like he does in priya-narma sakhya-rasa following his lead. So in that sense they are "eternal followers."
Brahma Dasa - June 27, 2010 12:29 am
Citta Hari is giving the so called "eternal followers of Prabhupada" too much credit. In my experience devotees who refer to themselves as eternal followers of Prabhupada or Prabhupadanugas, Prabhupada men, etc. have a physical or material conception of guru.
For example, we asked Sridhara Maharaja about the idea that the guru had to return to deliver disciples who for some reason had fallen short of attaining liberation. Sridhara Maharaja replied that if this was the case the guru could never enter nitya lila as he would forever have to return to deliver errant disciples.
He said the correct idea was that Krsna was the spiritual potency in all gurus and that he (Krsna) would return in some way, through some devotee, to deliver the imperfect disciples. The point being that Krsna is the guru who through many devotees guides the disciple life after life. Sridhara maharaja said that the answer to all questions of this sort is--Krsna is the guru.
Devotees who understand this don’t think that Gaudiya Vaisnavism is about forever following Prabhupada from universe to universe to help him deliver wayward disciples and preach and start Iskcons into eternity. This idea sounds heroic but in actuality it is a material conception of guru.
Devyah-pati Das SERBIA - June 27, 2010 1:38 pm
Citta Hari is giving the so called "eternal followers of Prabhupada" too much credit. In my experience devotees who refer to themselves as eternal followers of Prabhupada or Prabhupadanugas, Prabhupada men, etc. have a physical or material conception of guru.
For example, we asked Sridhara Maharaja about the idea that the guru had to return to deliver disciples who for some reason had fallen short of attaining liberation. Sridhara Maharaja replied that if this was the case the guru could never enter nitya lila as he would forever have to return to deliver errant disciples.
He said the correct idea was that Krsna was the spiritual potency in all gurus and that he (Krsna) would return in some way, through some devotee, to deliver the imperfect disciples. The point being that Krsna is the guru who through many devotees guides the disciple life after life. Sridhara maharaja said that the answer to all questions of this sort is--Krsna is the guru.
Devotees who understand this don’t think that Gaudiya Vaisnavism is about forever following Prabhupada from universe to universe to help him deliver wayward disciples and preach and start Iskcons into eternity. This idea sounds heroic but in actuality it is a material conception of guru.
Citta Hari Prabhu writes: "...They understood him on a deeper level, and became interested in his inner life and aspire to be with him in the lila. That of course means they are attracted to the same rasa that he is in (priya-narma sakhya-rasa), and when they are admitted into the lila they will join him in his group and serve Krsna like he does in priya-narma sakhya-rasa following his lead...."
Brahma Prabhu, I wanted to ask you in connection to this what Citta Hari Prabhu said, what is your understanding of this?
Is it possible for us to one day enter Krsna lila and to recognize GM there and serve GM there in his service to Krsna there forever?
Citta Hari Dasa - June 28, 2010 4:03 pm
Brahma, you said:
Citta Hari is giving the so called "eternal followers of Prabhupada" too much credit. In my experience devotees who refer to themselves as eternal followers of Prabhupada or Prabhupadanugas, Prabhupada men, etc. have a physical or material conception of guru.
I agree that people who refer to themselves as you mentioned most likely have a material conception of guru. But that's not what I was talking about. If someone enters the lila and enters his group to serve him there then that devotee is an eternal follower of SP in his siddha-deha. I made no mention of him returning repeatedly to rescue his disciples.
Brahma Dasa - July 1, 2010 2:05 am
Citta Hari, I agree with everything you said!
Brahma Dasa - July 1, 2010 11:39 pm
I wanted to ask you in connection to this what Citta Hari Prabhu said, what is your understanding of this? Is it possible for us to one day enter Krsna lila and to recognize GM there and serve GM there in his service to Krsna there forever?
Divyah-pati,
I don’t really know the answer to these questions. The idea of conceiving of ones guru as his or her group leader in Krsna lila is part of Raganuga sadhana, but I always though of this more as a meditation than as being final reality. In other words I have a hard time with the idea that after final liberation, upon entering Krsna lila, I will recognize Srila Prabhupada as my particular gopa group leader and perhaps Srila Sridhara Maharaja as being my gopi liaison group leader--or something like that. And what about Swami will I recognize him there as well?
What if a disciple of Prabhupada is not liberated in this lifetime? He will need a guru in his next life won’t he? So what about his next initiating guru, his siksa gurus, and all the gurus after that—and of course all the gurus he or she had in previous lives? Will he recognize all of them? Will they all, perhaps hundreds of gurus, be his group leaders?
To me this idea seems akin to the Christian (and Mormon) idea that when one gets to heaven one is reunited with family members and lives with them into eternity. Seeing it in this way I think you can understand why I have a hard time with this idea—so I return again to the philosophy that ultimately Krsna is the guru.
Swami - July 2, 2010 12:54 am
I wanted to ask you in connection to this what Citta Hari Prabhu said, what is your understanding of this? Is it possible for us to one day enter Krsna lila and to recognize GM there and serve GM there in his service to Krsna there forever?Divyah-pati,
I don’t really know the answer to these questions. The idea of conceiving of ones guru as his or her group leader in Krsna lila is part of Raganuga sadhana, but I always though of this more as a meditation than as being final reality. In other words I have a hard time with the idea that after final liberation, upon entering Krsna lila, I will recognize Srila Prabhupada as my particular gopa group leader and perhaps Srila Sridhara Maharaja as being my gopi liaison group leader--or something like that. And what about Swami will I recognize him there as well?
What if a disciple of Prabhupada is not liberated in this lifetime? He will need a guru in his next life won’t he? So what about his next initiating guru, his siksa gurus, and all the gurus after that—and of course all the gurus he or she had in previous lives? Will he recognize all of them? Will they all, perhaps hundreds of gurus, be his group leaders?
To me this idea seems akin to the Christian (and Mormon) idea that when one gets to heaven one is reunited with family members and lives with them into eternity. Seeing it in this way I think you can understand why I have a hard time with this idea—so I return again to the philosophy that ultimately Krsna is the guru.
Advanced devotees wil realize the siddha svarupa of their guru and follow him or her in that form in the eternal lila. So they will be attached to this form even in this life. However, it is true that once going there one will forget everything here, including the "preaching lila," if you will. So the liberated will not remember this world.
Gopakumara Das - July 2, 2010 2:49 am
Advanced devotees wil realize the siddha svarupa of their guru and follow him or her in that form in the eternal lila. So they will be attached to this form even in this life. However, it is true that once going there one will forget everything here, including the "preaching lila," if you will. So the liberated will not remember this world.
kabe ha’be bolo se-dina amar
aparadha ghuci’, suddha name ruci
kripa-bale ha’be hridoye sancar
kabe ha’be bolo se-dina amar
kabe ha’be bolo se-dina amar?
Brahma Dasa - July 2, 2010 11:37 pm
"Once going there one will forget everything here, including the "preaching lila," if you will. So the liberated will not remember this world."
So (in my understanding) the answer to Divyah-pati’s question is that the disciple who has attained jivan-mukti will enter Krsna lila recognizing his guru as his group leader. Such a disciple wil in a sense be leading two side-by-side lives, one in the earthly realm as a sadhaka in service to the mission of his guru, and the other in Samadhi as a cowherd boy serving within his gurus group in Krsna lila.
Then upon his entering videha mukti (final liberation) all earthly identities are shed and the disciple becomes in all respects a cowherd boy in Vrndavana, with no recollection of his gurus or previous position as a sadhaka.
This idea presupposes that disciples (of Srila Prabhupada) who have not attained jivan-mukti in this life will by Krsna’s grace receive another guru and serve under him or her in their next life until in some lifetime they attain jivan mukti whereby they enter Krsna lila under the shelter of the (new) guru they are in service to at that time. Thus it’s entirely possible that many if not most devotees initiated by Srila Prabhupada will enter Krsna lila under the auspicious of a different guru. (Quite a shocking idea for most initiated disciples of Prabhupada.)
Am I close here?
Swami - July 3, 2010 2:15 pm
"Once going there one will forget everything here, including the "preaching lila," if you will. So the liberated will not remember this world."So (in my understanding) the answer to Divyah-pati’s question is that the disciple who has attained jivan-mukti will enter Krsna lila recognizing his guru as his group leader. Such a disciple wil in a sense be leading two side-by-side lives, one in the earthly realm as a sadhaka in service to the mission of his guru, and the other in Samadhi as a cowherd boy serving within his gurus group in Krsna lila.
Then upon his entering videha mukti (final liberation) all earthly identities are shed and the disciple becomes in all respects a cowherd boy in Vrndavana, with no recollection of his gurus or previous position as a sadhaka.
This idea presupposes that disciples (of Srila Prabhupada) who have not attained jivan-mukti in this life will by Krsna’s grace receive another guru and serve under him or her in their next life until in some lifetime they attain jivan mukti whereby they enter Krsna lila under the shelter of the (new) guru they are in service to at that time. Thus it’s entirely possible that many if not most devotees initiated by Srila Prabhupada will enter Krsna lila under the auspicious of a different guru. (Quite a shocking idea for most initiated disciples of Prabhupada.)
Am I close here?
Pretty close, but it is possible that the disciples who are in their initiating guru's eternal group (by destiny or desire) will still enter that group and serve under their eternal guru in his gopa svarupa (for example) even after he has gone to the aprakrta lila and apparently left them behind. And this will be accomplished by the help of another guru in their next life or life after, etc. Narottama Thakura prayed to his guru Lokanatha Goswami to be placed in the service of Sri Rupa-manjari under her guidance in her group. And prayers will be heard, if for example one desires to enter one's guru's group but is unsuccessful in this life yet prays for this alone, such prayers will be heard and fulfilled. Indeed, such prayers/aspirations are very pleasing to Hari.
Swami - July 3, 2010 2:22 pm
kabe ha’be bolo se-dina amaraparadha ghuci’, suddha name ruci
kripa-bale ha’be hridoye sancar
kabe ha’be bolo se-dina amar
kabe ha’be bolo se-dina amar?
Perhaps better stated,
kata bane chutachuti bane khai lutaputi
sei din kabe habe mor
But Gaura-lila is not to be neglected in pursuit of our ideal, and in that sense your citation is tasteful.
Braja-sundari Dasi - July 3, 2010 8:47 pm
Pretty close, but it is possible that the disciples who are in their initiating guru's eternal group (by destiny or desire) will still enter that group and serve under their eternal guru in his gopa svarupa (for example) even after he has gone to the aprakrta lila and apparently left them behind. And this will be accomplished by the help of another guru in their next life or life after, etc. Narottama Thakura prayed to his guru Lokanatha Goswami to be placed in the service of Sri Rupa-manjari under her guidance in her group. And prayers will be heard, if for example one desires to enter one's guru's group but is unsuccessful in this life yet prays for this alone, such prayers will be heard and fulfilled. Indeed, such prayers/aspirations are very pleasing to Hari.
Thank you Guru Maharaja for that reply! I know I won`t attain perfection this life time so it was bothering me. It is great to know that I still have a chance to join you later
Swami - July 4, 2010 12:50 am
Thank you Guru Maharaja for that reply! I know I won`t attain perfection this life time so it was bothering me. It is great to know that I still have a chance to join you later
It's not over yet, but I glad to know you feel that way. Jai Hari!
Gopakumara Das - July 4, 2010 3:56 am
O dear friend, in Your company I will experience great joy once again. In the early morning I will wander about the cowherd pastures and fields. Running and frolicking in the many forests of Vraja, I will roll on the ground in spiritual ecstasy. Oh when will that day be mine?
Tadiya Dasi - July 4, 2010 5:49 am
And prayers will be heard, if for example one desires to enter one's guru's group but is unsuccessful in this life yet prays for this alone, such prayers will be heard and fulfilled. Indeed, such prayers/aspirations are very pleasing to Hari.
Oh, I'm with Braja, hearing this is a relief! Jaya Gurudeva! 
Gopakumara Das - July 4, 2010 4:10 pm
Swami said:However, it is true that once going there one will forget everything here, including the "preaching lila," if you will. So the liberated will not remember this world.
AND
And prayers will be heard, if for example one desires to enter one's guru's group but is unsuccessful in this life yet prays for this alone, such prayers will be heard and fulfilled. Indeed, such prayers/aspirations are very pleasing to Hari.
Gurumaharaja, please explain this seeming contradiction. I often wonder, do the Saints still hear our prayers? Along these lines, if the guru is not omniscient –as you have clarified in Sanga– can we expect the guru to know our heart and hear some dimension of our prayers? Must we make everything explicit?
Sorry to bombard with questions.. but here is another one: When I read about the siddha pranali system and our own system of realizing one's svarupa in Krsna nama, I wonder; does the guru have insight into the svarupa of the disciple even before the disciple does? In Jaiva Dharma the disciple has to tell their guru what their inclination is and then the guru instructs on meditation. Did the guru have some insight into the disciples eternal relationship and form before the moment he was informed? At what stage of bhakti does the guru gain such insights and in what manner?
Swami - July 5, 2010 10:40 am
Gurumaharaja, please explain this seeming contradiction. I often wonder, do the Saints still hear our prayers? Along these lines, if the guru is not omniscient –as you have clarified in Sanga– can we expect the guru to know our heart and hear some dimension of our prayers? Must we make everything explicit?Sorry to bombard with questions.. but here is another one: When I read about the siddha pranali system and our own system of realizing one's svarupa in Krsna nama, I wonder; does the guru have insight into the svarupa of the disciple even before the disciple does? In Jaiva Dharma the disciple has to tell their guru what their inclination is and then the guru instructs on meditation. Did the guru have some insight into the disciples eternal relationship and form before the moment he was informed? At what stage of bhakti does the guru gain such insights and in what manner?
1. Omniscience in the sense of being able to hear another's prayers is one of the qualities of the liberated soul who has entered the nitya-lila, as explained by Baladeva Vidyabhusana in his Govinda-bhasya. Sri Rupa on the other hand lists omniscience (sarva-jna) as one of Krsna's qualities that are not found in liberated jivas. He defines this omniscience thus, "He who is the embodiment of all things and knows the situation within all hearts through all time and space is called omniscient." So being able to feel another's prayers is one thing and knowing everything in everyone's heart is another. And feeling another's prayers in the nitya-lila is different than remembering one's life in the material world. That is forgotten, but I guess you could say one could be reminded of the best of it through the prayers of other aspiring sadhakas. But as in the case of Krsna, who is omniscient (aisvarya) in that he can hear the prayers of others despite being absorbed in being merely a Vrajavasi (madhurya), such prayers must be of a high quality. Also the purified sadhaka deha of the guru is often the object of veneration and prayer even after the guru has entered the nitya lila, and this form is related to the nitya-lila of Mahaprabhu in Nadiya. That realm is known as sadhaka-siddha bhumi, that place where siddhas play the role of sadhakas in lila. This realm is more closely related to one's sadhaka deha and the preaching lila of this world. My reference above was to Krsna-lila, but Gaura lila, being imbued with munificence, keeps the liberated related to the preaching lila here to an extent via the prayers of sincere sadhakas.
2. The guru will know the direction one will go before the disciple knows. This direction will show itself to the knowing eye in some cases more than others.
Nitaisundara Das - July 6, 2010 4:27 pm
This is a very nice thread! Jaya Guru Maharaja 
Braja-sundari Dasi - July 7, 2010 2:05 pm
I have seen once something that seemed like a person remebering her guru form previous life...
A devotee couple with a small daughter came once to the temple shop. The girl was about 1 year old, she was just learning to walk and could speak only few half-words. When parents came close to the shelf with books, suddenly the girl tried to grab Prabhupada Lilamrita. There were many other books, with much more attractive covers but she tried to grab this one. So I joked: "she likes Prabhupada". "Oh yes" her parrents replied and showed me something really amazing. They started opening different books with different photos of Srila Prabhupada and each time the girl was joyfully screaming "Prabhupaaa" and tried to grab the photo. she was reacting like babies do- with her whole body, waving her hands and kicking her legs, with shining eyes opened widely. Parrents showed her many other different pictures (I had also childrens` books) but she reacted this way only to the pictures with Prabhupada. she was recognizing him even in photos with other people.
These people were from France and I have never met them again. I wonder what is this girl doing now... and who she was in her last life...
Devyah-pati Das SERBIA - July 14, 2010 12:33 pm
... And prayers will be heard, if for example one desires to enter one's guru's group but is unsuccessful in this life yet prays for this alone, such prayers will be heard and fulfilled. Indeed, such prayers/aspirations are very pleasing to Hari.
If I previously had some other guru that I do not remember now,
but I wanted very much to join his group, but now, on the other
hand I developed great attraction for my present guru (like now
to our GM), I wonder how will this all work out?
From now on and forever (if it is possible) I would like to be in
the specific group of our present GM, Srila Tripurari Maharaj.
If I forget him personaly in my next birth, still remembering
his bhava (like this was maby the case with my previous guru),
still I would like to ultimately end up in our present GM group.
May Krsna fulfill my prayer...
Madan Gopal Das - July 14, 2010 3:15 pm
I wonder how will this all work out?
yam yam vapi smaran bhavam. One's attraction, feeling, character (bhava) will guide one to future circumstances wherein cultivation of such aspiration continues. This natural progression of "karma", or in spiritual life "picking up where you left off" plus the divine intervention of svarupa-sakti will make everything work out. All we have to worry about is cultivating the desire more and more.
Also, one may have the association of a guru in one life but not make enough progress to even desire to be in a "group" on the other side, or maybe the guru was not far enough along to belong to a group. Also, some gurus are not our "sad-guru" but rather just helping us along at a particular point in our eternal sojourn. After all, we can see even in one lifetime that we may get all we can from one guru and then need to accept another because we've absorbed all they can give us. It is possible that when we have progressed to the point of desiring to belong in our guru's group, that we may be following that person for eternity - that guru is sad guru, everything for us. Yay!