Tattva-viveka
scriptures and the Absolute
Shyam Gopal Das - July 21, 2004 9:39 am
I have been thinking: is it possible that the scriptures are not the complete representations of the Absolute Truth, since truth is not static but rather dynamic and in that way can never be fully described? Nonetheless, this would not mean that the scriptures are less true, because when the truth is dynamic, parts of it can still be captured.
what are your thoughts and are there any scriptural references regarding this?
Ramakesava - July 21, 2004 5:16 pm
Bhaktivinode says that scripture is relative except when it talks about Krsna and then it is absolute.
Guru Maharaja says that where the Absolute meets the finite (I can't remember the words), there we get sastra (or was it where time meets eternity? Not a very good memory here today).
Like all things we must take the essence, and understand why scripture says things and what they behoove for us in the times/places we live in.
Ys., Rama Kesava
Dayal Govinda Dasa - July 21, 2004 5:57 pm
In Tattva-Sandarbha, Guru maharaja states
"Sastra, like the deity, is an instance of that which is eternal meeting with the temporal. At the junction where eternity meets time, we find the sastra. There, the eternal appears temporal, yet it speaks to us only about eternity, and through it we glimpse that which is eternal." (p39)
Guru maharaj has also mentioned that the entirety of the sastra is but an outline of the absolute, a mere table of contents. Although this is so, the important thing to note is that by following the advice of the Sastra, one is able to experience transcendence for oneself and thus come to know the absolute on its terms.
This is what distinguishes sastra from other literature.
Sastra is essentially the transcendent experience, commited to writing. As such, it must necessarily fall short in presenting the subject matter.
It is similar (although not entirely the same by any means) to the way we can look at secular poetry. Poets seek to express and convey their experience to us through words. By merely reading the printed page, however, we will not be able to truly understand the poets heart unless we have experienced such emotion ourselves. By carefully studying the poets words, we may come to view the world in more poetic terms and thus be able to enter into his (or her) world.
I beleive that this is what Guru maharaja is referring to when he instructs us to live within the pages of the books. When we fully identify ourselves with that world view, the world will speak to us only of the absolute.
This is the way in which the sages saw the world, and thus, even if we allow for some relativity in there, we cannot cast aside the Sastra because our experience of the world is different.
In manifesting, the Sastra takes on a particular color in relation to those who manifest it. Srila Bhaktivinoda sites the example of a sastra which states that bitter things should be eaten at the end of a meal (a custom in South India), and points to the author of the work to suggest that some relativity crept in.
Syama Gopala, I forget if you have Tattva-Sandarbha or not, but if you do I would reccomend a careful sudy of the book (as I am trying to do presently). It deals with this, and other important topics in some depth.
In service
Dayal Govinda dasa brahmacari
Shyam Gopal Das - July 21, 2004 6:05 pm
Thank you for the replies!
I will definitely study Tattva-Sandarbha. I have two copies at the moment due to your selling skills. 
can it also be said that sastra is our window to the spiritual world?
Vrindaranya Dasi - July 21, 2004 6:30 pm
Here are some references in relation to this topic:
iksater na asabdam
"Brahman is not inexpressible by words because it is seen that he is so expressly taught in the scriptures." (Vedanta-sutra 1.1.5)
Our understanding of this verse is that scripture cannot say enough about the Absolute. Or in other words, scripture doesn't say everything about the Absolute. In Baladeva Vidyabhusana's commentary to this verse, he confirms that scripture is not complete in the sense of entirely representing God in all his aspects: "True, Brahman is said to be 'asabdam,' 'ineffable,' only in this sense that he is not completely expressible by words. Thus, as the mountain Meru is said to be invisible in the sense that no one can see all its parts, but does not mean that it is entirely invisible, so Brahman is said to be indescribable or inexpressible in the sense that he is not completely describable." Nonetheless, as Dayal said, scripture gives us the means to realize the Absolute.
Another verse, from the Kena Upanisad, says, "From whom the speech turns back." Baladeva comments, "The word yatah shows that the speech does reach him after realising him a little."
Srila Prabhupada would sometimes say that the demigods' version of Srimad-Bhagavatam is bigger. From this we can understand that there is always more that can be said about the Absolute.
Bhaktivinode Thakur did say that there is some relativity in the scripture, but he didn't say that only when the scripture talks about Krsna is it Absolute.
Ys,
Vrindaranya
Brahma Dasa - July 21, 2004 8:00 pm
Food for thought from Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur
What are scriptures?
What are the Scriptures? They are nothing but the record by the pure devotees of the Divine Message appearing on the lips of the pure devotees. The Message conveyed by the devotees is the same in all ages. The words of the devotees are ever identical with the Scriptures. Any meaning of the Scriptures that belittles the function of the devotee who is the original communicant of the Divine Message contradicts its own claim to be heard. Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur (The Harmonist, December 1931, vol. XXIX No.6)
Is the sanskrit language spiritual?
"Those who think that the Sanskrit language in its lexicographical sense is the language of the Divinity are as deluded as those who hold that the Divine Message is communicable through any other spoken dialects. All languages simultaneously express and hide the Absolute. The mundane face of all languages hides the Truth. The Transcendental face of all sound expresses nothing but the Absolute. The pure devotee is the speaker of the Transcendental language. The Transcendental Sound makes His appearance on the lips of His pure devotee. This is the direct, unambiguous appearance of Divinity. On the lips of non-devotees the Absolute always appears in His deluding aspect. To the pure devotee the Absolute reveals Himself under all circumstances. To the conditioned soul, if he is disposed to listen in a truly submissive spirit, the language of the pure devotee can alone impart the knowledge of the Absolute. The conditioned soul mistakes the deluding for the real aspect when he chooses to lend his ear to the non-devotee. This is the reason why the conditioned soul is warned to avoid all association with non-devotees." Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur (The Harmonist, December 1931, vol. XXIX No.6)
The pure devotee is always right...
The identical verses of the Scriptures may be recited by the devotee and may be apparently misquoted by the non-devotee but the corresponding values of the two processes remain always categorically different. The devotee is right even when he apparently misquotes, the non-devotee is wrong even when he quotes correctly the very words, chapter and verse of the Scriptures. Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur (The Harmonist, December 1931, vol. XXIX No.6)
On Thakura Bhaktivinode:
Thakura Bhaktivinoda has been specifically kind to those unfortunate persons who are engrossed in mental speculation of all kinds. This is the prevalent malady of the present Age. The other acaryas who appeared before Thakura Bhaktivinoda did not address their discourses so directly to the empiric thinkers. They had been more merciful to those who are naturally disposed to listen to discourses on the Absolute without being dissuaded by the specious arguments of avowed opponents of Godhead./ Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur (The Harmonist, December 1931, vol. XXIX No.6)
"The spiritual community is not circumscribed by the conditions of time and space, race and nationality. Mankind had been looking forward to this far-off Divine Event through the Long Ages. Thakura Bhaktivinoda has made the conception available in its practicable spiritual form to the open minded empiricist who is prepared to undergo the process of enlightenment." Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur (The Harmonist, December 1931, vol. XXIX No.6)
The writings of Thakura Bhaktivinoda are valuable because they demolish all empiric objections against accepting the only method of approaching the Absolute in the right way. They cannot and were never intended to give access to the Absolute without help from the pure devotee of Krsna. They direct the sincere enquirer of the Truth, as all the revealed scriptures do, to the pure devotee of Krsna to learn about Him by submitting to listen with an open mind to the Transcendental Sound appearing on His lips. Before we open any of the books penned by Thakura Bhaktivinoda we should do well to reflect a little on the attitude, with which as the indispensable pre-requisite, to approach its study. Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur (The Harmonist, December 1931, vol. XXIX No.6)
Scripture is not a substitute for the word from the living source of the Truth
The method offered by Thakura Bhaktivinoda is identical with the object of the quest. The method is not really grasped except by the grace of the pure devotee. The arguments, indeed, are these. But they can only corroborate, but can never be a substitute for, the word from the living source of the Truth who is no other than the pure devotee of Krsna, the concrete Personal Absolute. Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur (The Harmonist, December 1931, vol. XXIX No.6)
Brahma Dasa - July 21, 2004 8:19 pm
The scriptures only faintly describe the personality Godhead
The name of Krishna on the lips of the supreme Lord (Sri Caitanya) had the power of making all persons, who heard it, realize the truth of whom they had been told by the scriptures. This was a most marvelous experience.
In this Iron Age it is only the name of Krishna appearing on lips of a bona fide sadhu who can lift the conditioned soul to the plane of the absolute. As a matter of fact even the scriptures also can only faintly describe the personality Godhead. The mere study of the scriptures can convey no full knowledge of the absolute as substantive entity. The name Krishna has the power to put the person on the absolute plane and endow the words of the revealed scriptures with their living meaning.
On the plane of the absolute all entities serve Godhead in infinite variety of forms and run harmoniously into, instead of clashing against, one another. Division of the person who once hears the name of Krishna undergoes this marvelous change. He can only then really believe in Godhead because he understands and sees whom he is to serve. He becomes in the substantive sense a bona fide theist or Vaisnava. - Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura
Brahma Dasa - July 21, 2004 8:26 pm
Food for thought from Thakura Bhaktivinode
From Sri Krsna samhita:
'There is no doubt that the Visnu-purana was written by a southern pandita
because there it it stated that a man should eat bitter things at the end
of a meal. This is a southern practice which shows that the author has
inserted the flavor of his own country into the text. There is no doubt...
It is an obvious fact that a man is greatly devoted to his homeland and
even the great sages were somewhat influenced by this tendency.'
"Devotees of the Supreme Lord are not controlled by the scriptures since their activities are congenial to divine wisdom. Therefore when the self-realized devotees ordain any new arrangement, this should be followed as a religious code, even if such new arrangements are not found in the scriptural dictums of the previous sages."
"The provisional character of scriptural texts is evident, but the
authors of the scriptures do not explicitly indicate this because
those qualified to discard the scriptural bindings naturally become
independent of scripture with the help of the hidden indications of
the scriptural authors and also by their own purified knowledge. Such
persons carry on sinless activities with the help of their own
intellect as well as by the advice of the scriptures. In that stage
the scriptures do not have any binding power over them, but only
serve as their guides.
On the other hand, those who are unable to understand their own
spiritual path for want of self-evident knowledge may not be able to
ascertain their duties and so may fall into misery due to sensuality;
for such people the scriptural rules are imperative. Such persons
should not know that there is any way for them apart from the
bindings of the scriptures. When they become authorized due to their
advancement, they will be able to know this secret by the suggestions
of the scriptures."
"The constitutional activities of a pure soul are called sva-dharma, or one s prescribed activities. The sva-dharma of a living entity is prominently manifested in his pure state of existence. In one s pure state of existence this sva-dharma is present in the form of spiritual activities. All the above-mentioned material tendencies become succesful when dovetailed with spiritulal activities, otherwise they cannot independently help one attain the highest goal. From engagement in material activities up to the awakening of spiritual activities is called the preliminary stage of God consciousness. From this preliminary stage up to the uttama-adhikari stage there are innumerable levels. /Bhaktivinode Thakura (Sri Krishna Samita)
From the Bhagavata:
"What sort of a thing is the Bhagavata, asks the European gentlemen newly arrived in India. His companion tells him with a serene look, that the Bhagavata is a book, which his Oriya bearer daily reads in the evening to a number of hearers. It contains a jargon of unintelligible and savage literature of those men who paint their noses with some sort of earth or sandal, and wear beads all over their bodies in order to procure salvation for themselves. Another of his companions, who has traveled a little in the interior, would immediately contradict him and say that the Bhagavata is a Sanskrit work claimed by a sect of men, the Goswamis, who give mantras, like the Pope of Italy, to the common people of Bengal, and pardon their sins on payment of gold enough to defray their social expenses..."
"Oh! What a trouble to get rid of prejudices gathered in unripe years!"
"Subjects of' philosophy and theology are like the peaks of large towering and inaccessible mountains standing in the midst of our planet inviting attention and investigation. Thinkers and men of deep speculation take their observations through the instruments of reason and consciousness. But they take different points when they carry on their work. These points are positions chalked out by the circumstances of their social and philosophical life, different as they are in the different parts of the world."
"All higher Truths, though intuitive, require previous education in the simpler ones."
"There may arise a philosophical doubt as to how the human soul could have a distinct existence from the universal Soul when the gross part of the human constitution will be no more? The Vaishnava can't answer it, nor can any man on earth explain it. The Vaishnava meekly answers, he feels the truth but he cannot understand it."
"The truth, as stated in the Bhagavata is that properties though many of them belligerent (contradictory), are united in a spiritual Being where they have full sympathy and harmony. Certainly this is beyond our comprehension. It is so owing to our nature being finite and God being infinite. Our ideas are constrained by the idea of space and time, but God is above that constraint. This is a glimpse of Truth and we must regard it as Truth itself. Often, says Emerson, a glimpse of truth is better than an arranged system and he is right."
"Liberty then is the principle, which we must consider as the most valuable gift of God. We must not allow ourselves to be led by those who lived and thought before us. We must think for ourselves and try to get for ourselves further truths which are still undiscovered or unadapted in the present conditions and circumstances for purpose of our realization of the same."
"In the 23rd text 21st Chapter 11th Skandha of the Bhagavata we have been advised to take the spirit of the Shastras and not the words. The Bhagavata is therefore a religion of liberty, unmixed truth and absolute love." From the Bhagavata by Bhaktivinode Thakura
"The initiating spiritual master (diksa-guru) shows his causeless mercy by giving his disciples instructions in chanting the mantra. By so doing, he points the disciples in the direction of the truths pertaining to the Supreme Lord, Sri Krsna. I consider the numerous instructing spiritual masters (siksa-gurus) to be more important, for they show more mercy by training the sadhakas in all the essential aspects of sadhana-bhakti." Bhaktivinode Thakur (Kalyana-kalpataru)
It has been seen that any rasa that appears in India eventually spreads to the western countries, therefore madhurya rasa will soon be preached throughout the world. Just as the sun rises first in India and gradually spreads its lights to the West, the matchless splendor of spiritual truth appears first in India and gradually spreads to the Western countries. / Bhaktivinode Thakura (From Moses to Mahaprabhu)
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - July 21, 2004 9:52 pm
What are the Scriptures? They are nothing but the record by the pure devotees of the Divine Message appearing on the lips of the pure devotees.
In some of his lectures Guru Maharaja states the importance of revelation as pramana, which I find extremely interesting. So it's possible that Revelations of today will be Scriptures of tomorrow.
Brahma Dasa - July 21, 2004 10:08 pm
Whatever appears in the mind of a pure devotee is reality (scripture).
"One has to allow Vyasa, or any empowered devotee, a literary license. After all, Vyasa has told the history of the curse of Pariksit Maharaja much differently in Mahabharata from his description of the same event in the Bhagavatam. There are many instances of this.
There is also a class of devotees that consider Mahabharata differently, as they do the Bhagavatam. Rather than historical events, as one might think of them, they consider that which appeared in the spiritual mind of Vyasa to be reality, 'samadinanusmara tad vicestitam urukramasyakhila.'. Narada told Vyasa to meditate in trance on "the one whose steps are uncommon" and this gave birth to the Bhagavatam.
Whatever appears in the mind of a pure devotee is reality. In this scenario, the Bhagavatam occured in the trance of Vyasa. He envisioned the eternal prakata lila of Krishna in a particular way and described it. In turn, Sukadeva related it in terms of his ecstasy, and not necessarily chronologically, as pointed out by Sanatana Goswami. So there are different ways to think about these things."
Swami B.V. Tripurari