Tattva-viveka

Here the jiva again similar mistake similar to Christian

Gaura-Vijaya Das - October 23, 2010 5:40 am

Here NM leading disciple uses Jaiva Dharma as the evidence to prove that jiva is 100% responsible for his fate. Jiva had a split second to go on either side. Because of the "offense" of turning away from God in that split second, we are in suffering right now. Again preaching strategy preached as truth.

Swami - October 23, 2010 12:26 pm

Here NM leading disciple uses Jaiva Dharma as the evidence to prove that jiva is 100% responsible for his fate. Jiva had a split second to go on either side. Because of the "offense" of turning away from God in that split second, we are in suffering right now. Again preaching strategy preached as truth.

This is sooo Christian. Not at all Eastern. Original sin. And the more I hear it the more absurd it sounds—"a split second "outside of time." An eternal soul with no beginning chooses to enter time at some point outside of time . . . They are creating a beginningless limbo where souls are viewing God and the world and at some point (time outside of time) choose the world. For who knows how long they are not making ay choice, even though the jiva is basically a unit of choice. If its will is dormant until it makes this choice, its existence prior to the choice has no meaning. As soon as it choses it begins to live. The jiva has no beginning, and a jiva with no will is not a jiva. Thus the jivas karma is as beginningless as the jiva is.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - October 23, 2010 5:46 pm

This is sooo Christian. Not at all Eastern. Original sin. And the more I hear it the more absurd it sounds—"a split second "outside of time." An eternal soul with no beginning chooses to enter time at some point outside of time . . . They are creating a beginningless limbo where souls are viewing God and the world and at some point (time outside of time) choose the world. For who knows how long they are not making ay choice, even though the jiva is basically a unit of choice. If its will is dormant until it makes this choice, its existence prior to the choice has no meaning. As soon as it choses it begins to live. The jiva has no beginning, and a jiva with no will is not a jiva. Thus the jivas karma is as beginningless as the jiva is.

That is what I always felt many of SSM or NM's disciple though condescending on ISKCOn for their belief in Fall in Vaikuntha story were no different in believing in split second story!! Same original sin concept. How does it matter whether you did it at brahmajyoti or tatastha (still same concept offense for a split second decision). As Christian as it gets!!!

Babhru Das - October 23, 2010 6:54 pm

It does bring to mind the first couple of lines of "Paradise Lost":

Of Mans First Disobedience, and the Fruit

Of that Forbidden Tree, whose mortal tast

Brought Death into the World, and all our woe,

Bijaya Kumara Das - October 24, 2010 3:22 am

This is sooo Christian. Not at all Eastern. Original sin. And the more I hear it the more absurd it sounds—"a split second "outside of time." An eternal soul with no beginning chooses to enter time at some point outside of time . . . They are creating a beginningless limbo where souls are viewing God and the world and at some point (time outside of time) choose the world. For who knows how long they are not making ay choice, even though the jiva is basically a unit of choice. If its will is dormant until it makes this choice, its existence prior to the choice has no meaning. As soon as it choses it begins to live. The jiva has no beginning, and a jiva with no will is not a jiva. Thus the jivas karma is as beginningless as the jiva is.

Thank you Guru Maharaja that says it all.

Brahma Samhita Das - October 25, 2010 5:54 pm

Dandavat pranams Maharaj

Thank you for unearthing this siddhantic conclusion like an expert archeologist

are you considering to make an article on this for Harmonist or do you have an article about it? Is it now only presented in the commentary section of Gaura Vijays article?

It would be interesting to raise this point up for discussion on a bigger scale. Recently on the vina.cc (WVA news website) where a couple of articles discussing the jiva issue from the perspective of BVT preaching strategy.

If you write an article about it we could also publish it in VINA

Swami - October 25, 2010 7:09 pm

Dandavat pranams Maharaj

Thank you for unearthing this siddhantic conclusion like an expert archeologist

are you considering to make an article on this for Harmonist or do you have an article about it? Is it now only presented in the commentary section of Gaura Vijays article?

It would be interesting to raise this point up for discussion on a bigger scale. Recently on the vina.cc (WVA news website) where a couple of articles discussing the jiva issue from the perspective of BVT preaching strategy.

If you write an article about it we could also publish it in VINA

At this time I am not planning to write a separate article on the subject. But thank you for your interest.

Brahma Samhita Das - October 27, 2010 12:03 pm

I understand

Thank you for your kind reply

Gaura-Vijaya Das - December 9, 2010 12:06 am

I understand
Thank you for your kind reply

http://krishnascience.com/Vaisnava%20Libra...h%20krishna.htm

Now Michael Cremo writes such a long article for justifying the Fall of Jiva. So tedious!! With a lot of support from SP and sastra!! This topic will never go away.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - February 25, 2011 2:11 am

SP used Jaya and Vijaya's fall to justify his fall position surprisingly and other sampradayas don't agree that Jaya and Vijaya fell down from the transcendental Vaikuntha, but actually from the bhauma vaikuntha. In other places, SP said Jaya and Vijaya did not fall down, krsna just wanted to enjoy vira rasa with them. Here in the letter

Srila Prabhupada had sent to devotees in Australia in 1972 to resolve controversies that arose among them about this topic, he does the opposite.

Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic

We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears. But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position.

Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.

We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned.

But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they

considered that only a moment had passed.

So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just

like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long

period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is

considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may

rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position.

So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the

evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to

Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.

Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his

origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease.

On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A crow went there and

the fruit fell down. Some panditas--big, big learned scholars--saw this and discussed: The fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb. No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions? So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin.

Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila--both may be possible, but when you are

coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya's clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead. The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila. Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna's lila. Even in dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime. Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative.

Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton.

Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna's lila. But differences we see under different conditions. Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed.

Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly, therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna. Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now don't waste your time with

this "Kaka taliya nyaya," crows and tal-fruit logic.

So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just

like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long

period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is

rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position.

So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the

evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to

Madan Gopal Das - February 25, 2011 4:57 pm

This crow and tal fruit letter is really difficult to interpret. Prabhupada says many contradictory things even in this one letter and it has been used to stop people from thinking about it "don't worry about where we came from, but get out" as well as the source for more inventive ideas like "we've really never left, we're in Krsna lila but just dreaming". Yikes!

We do know what the siddhanta is, so we can just look at this from the correct perspective and try to interpret what Prabhupada says that way. I haven't read this for a long time, but there are some interesting sentences here and there:

"Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down."

So this sounds pretty right on, Prabhupada is saying nobody falls from Goloka (where full devotional service is going on)!

This sentence has always been problematic: "Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport." Now that I'm reading this letter again though it is interesting that towards the end Prabhupada is emphasizing, clarifying a lot that we are always with Krsna in the sense of connected to him, as the energy is to the source, that this world is his energy, that when we remember our position in relationship to god (not in a lila svarupa sense) that we are with Krsna in his lila.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - February 25, 2011 9:23 pm

This crow and tal fruit letter is really difficult to interpret. Prabhupada says many contradictory things even in this one letter and it has been used to stop people from thinking about it "don't worry about where we came from, but get out" as well as the source for more inventive ideas like "we've really never left, we're in Krsna lila but just dreaming". Yikes!
We do know what the siddhanta is, so we can just look at this from the correct perspective and try to interpret what Prabhupada says that way. I haven't read this for a long time, but there are some interesting sentences here and there:

"Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down."

So this sounds pretty right on, Prabhupada is saying nobody falls from Goloka (where full devotional service is going on)!

This sentence has always been problematic: "Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport." Now that I'm reading this letter again though it is interesting that towards the end Prabhupada is emphasizing, clarifying a lot that we are always with Krsna in the sense of connected to him, as the energy is to the source, that this world is his energy, that when we remember our position in relationship to god (not in a lila svarupa sense) that we are with Krsna in his lila.

There is no evidence in the sastra that one falls from brahma-sayugya either. But yes it is a new revelation/preaching strategy post BVT. I am not sure about the Jaya and Vijaya interpretation of SP either.

Babhru Das - February 25, 2011 9:48 pm

Somehow, the GBC uses the Crow-and-Tal-Fruit letter to justify a policy forbidding discussion of the idea that we don't fall from Vaikuntha in ISKCON. However, it's not only find, but mandatory, to say that Prabhupada said we did fall at ISKCON centers. But the bottom line of the letter as I read it, and I believe I'm not completely dull, is that discussing the issue from either perspective is simply useless.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - February 25, 2011 10:13 pm

Somehow, the GBC uses the Crow-and-Tal-Fruit letter to justify a policy forbidding discussion of the idea that we don't fall from Vaikuntha in ISKCON. However, it's not only find, but mandatory, to say that Prabhupada said we did fall at ISKCON centers. But the bottom line of the letter as I read it, and I believe I'm not completely dull, is that discussing the issue from either perspective is simply useless.

Yes I also get the same feeling. So why not keep it as an irrelevant question that does not need to be discussed rather than deciding the fall position.

Swami - February 26, 2011 11:35 am

Forget the idea that Prabhupada devised a preaching strategy and just face the fact that he said contradictory things on the matter, and while some of them are supported by siddhanta others are not. Solution: go with the side that is supported by siddhanta and call the other statements whatever you want. Just say you don't know why he made them but this is the siddhanta and in places he agrees with that siddhanta so we go with that. If you take Prabhupada's statments out of the picture and look for the siddhanta on this issue it is easy to find. The only thing that makes it difficulty to find the siddhanta is his statements to the contrary, and perhaps some form BVT's as well. To lable those statements a preaching strategy seems to be what the fall-vadis take the most exception to because they find it insulting (to themselves).

Citta Hari Dasa - February 26, 2011 3:03 pm

To lable those statements a preaching strategy seems to be what the fall-vadis take the most exception to because they find it insulting (to themselves).

This is ironic because if I recall correctly SP himself said that the whole truth can't be given to everybody all at once. Maybe they thought that only referred to "the karmis" and not to them.

Babhru Das - February 27, 2011 12:41 am

Forget the idea that Prabhupada devised a preaching strategy and just face the fact that he said contradictory things on the matter, and while some of them are supported by siddhanta others are not. Solution: go with the side that is supported by siddhanta and call the other statements whatever you want. Just say you don't know why he made them but this is the siddhanta and in places he agrees with that siddhanta so we go with that.

It's surprising they don't see that. After all, the BBT ended up not publishing Jaiva Dharma because of BVT's statements on the matter. A senior BBT editor asked me some years ago what I thought they should do. My response: If you intend to publish Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Jaiva Dharma, you should do so without changing the disshanta presented there to fit your GBC resolutions.

If you take Prabhupada's statments out of the picture and look for the siddhanta on this issue it is easy to find. The only thing that makes it difficulty to find the siddhanta is his statements to the contrary, and perhaps some form BVT's as well. To lable those statements a preaching strategy seems to be what the fall-vadis take the most exception to because they find it insulting (to themselves).

Oh, we need a rimshot emoticon.

Madan Gopal Das - February 27, 2011 1:38 am

It's surprising they don't see that. After all, the BBT ended up not publishing Jaiva Dharma because of BVT's statements on the matter.

Wow...

This is exactly what happened to Kundali/Satyanarayan. Harikesa and the european BBT paid them to translate/publish the sat-sandarbas and when the jiva issue was clarified in the process the GBC freaked out and the project was shutdown. Now that is a cult! YIKES, run in fear! Wise teachers from history are clarifying our philosophy! Better shut them up!

Madan Gopal Das - February 27, 2011 2:00 am

There is no evidence in the sastra that one falls from brahma-sayugya either.

Well I wasn't talking about the brahma-sayujya part of the sentence, but rather the part that affirms no-fall from Goloka:

"Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down."

Because the siddhanta is no-fall from "full devotional service", I read this as saying "there is no fall down from "full devotional service" (Goloka). Not that this is that significant a statement though because its too much labor to try to prove your point from this letter. It would only be doing what the GBC does which is try to say it is definitively in support of one's position. This letter is not conclusively in anyone's camp, it is easy to interpret how you wish.

Madan Gopal Das - February 27, 2011 2:02 am

Check out how the GBC manipulates this in their resolution:

79) THAT:

1. Vaikuntha is that place from which no one ever falls down. The living entity belongs to Lord Krsna's marginal potency (tatastha-sakti). On this we all agree. The origin of the conditioned life of the souls now in this material world is undoubtedly beyond the range of our direct perception. We can therefore best answer questions about that origin by repeating the answers Srila Prabhupada gave when such questions were asked of him:

"The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity, misusing his tiny independence, wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world."

(Srimad-Bhagavatam 4.28.54, purport)

No ISKCON devotee shall present or publish any contrary view as conclusive in any class or seminar or any media (print, video, electronic, etc.).

Is that classic or WHAT?! First sentence they say no one falls from Vaikuntha. Then they go on to say that we can't directly perceive the origin of the jiva... (duh?) so we better repeat what Prabhupada says. AND THEN THEY PICK A QUOTE WHICH SAYS WHAT THEY BELIEVE!!! The could just as easily have said "We can therefore best answer questions about that origin by repeating the answers Srila Prabhupada gave when such questions were asked of him: 'The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purport)'

Citta Hari Dasa - February 27, 2011 3:13 am

Check out how the GBC manipulates this in their resolution:
Is that classic or WHAT?! First sentence they say no one falls from Vaikuntha. Then they go on to say that we can't directly perceive the origin of the jiva... (duh?) so we better repeat what Prabhupada says. AND THEN THEY PICK A QUOTE WHICH SAYS WHAT THEY BELIEVE!!! The could just as easily have said "We can therefore best answer questions about that origin by repeating the answers Srila Prabhupada gave when such questions were asked of him: 'The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. (Bhag. 3.16.26, purport)'

They clearly need a sadhu to help them understand and harmonize the various statements in the sastra and by the purvacaryas. Too bad they offended the person who could easily have set them straight on this issue (and so many others).