Tattva-viveka
sulochana's writing
Gaura-Vijaya Das - October 31, 2010 12:40 am
http://www.harekrsna.org/pada/about-me.htm
One person forwarded me this letter of Sulochana, when I was talking about SSM. Again I found the letter disgusting and I don't think sulochana was as great as the devotees make him out to be. Obviously I can't support his murder, but his statements here are painful.
Flattering and encouraging speech was always used by Prabhupada even when talking to the most disgusting human beings imaginable, so what to speak of what Prabhupada was capable of saying to a senior Godbrother, and in that Godbrother's presence. The words Prabhupada spoke about Sridhara Maharaja to his disciples when Sridhara was not there is the actual fact. And even then, Prabhupada was very cautious. If Prabhupada put in writing that Sridhar Maharaja is responsible for disobeying an order of his guru, that's it. Case closed. If Dheera wants to defend Sridhar Maharaja, then he has to confront these points, and not simply invoke the sentiments of those with no knowledge of Prabhupada's style of encouragement, his tactfulness, and humility and compassion. All these factors have to be taken into consideration when analyzing something Prabhupada says about an individual. To say that Prabhupada was whimsical when he wrote the letter to Rupanuga is very offensive. Prabhupada always was very careful about what went into writing.
So if Dheera still wants to defend Sridhar Maharaja on the basis of flattering statements, then first he has to explain why Sridhar Maharaja says the jiva soul originates in the Brahmajyoti, whereas Prabhupada says the jiva's original home is with Krsna. Why did Prabhupada write to Visvakarma in August of 1975, "I have now issued orders that All of my disciples should avoid all of my Godbrothers." And why did Prabhupada tell Gargamuni right after Sridhar Maharaja left the room once, "He is simply envious."
Did SP actually say that SSM was envious of him? Is Gargamuni trustworthy? Perhaps SP was in his cautious mood and felt suspicious of everybody due to his experiences.
Swami - October 31, 2010 1:53 am
http://www.harekrsna.org/pada/about-me.htmOne person forwarded me this letter of Sulochana, when I was talking about SSM. Again I found the letter disgusting and I don't think sulochana was as great as the devotees make him out to be. Obviously I can't support his murder, but his statements here are painful.
Flattering and encouraging speech was always used by Prabhupada even when talking to the most disgusting human beings imaginable, so what to speak of what Prabhupada was capable of saying to a senior Godbrother, and in that Godbrother's presence. The words Prabhupada spoke about Sridhara Maharaja to his disciples when Sridhara was not there is the actual fact. And even then, Prabhupada was very cautious. If Prabhupada put in writing that Sridhar Maharaja is responsible for disobeying an order of his guru, that's it. Case closed. If Dheera wants to defend Sridhar Maharaja, then he has to confront these points, and not simply invoke the sentiments of those with no knowledge of Prabhupada's style of encouragement, his tactfulness, and humility and compassion. All these factors have to be taken into consideration when analyzing something Prabhupada says about an individual. To say that Prabhupada was whimsical when he wrote the letter to Rupanuga is very offensive. Prabhupada always was very careful about what went into writing.
So if Dheera still wants to defend Sridhar Maharaja on the basis of flattering statements, then first he has to explain why Sridhar Maharaja says the jiva soul originates in the Brahmajyoti, whereas Prabhupada says the jiva's original home is with Krsna. Why did Prabhupada write to Visvakarma in August of 1975, "I have now issued orders that All of my disciples should avoid all of my Godbrothers." And why did Prabhupada tell Gargamuni right after Sridhar Maharaja left the room once, "He is simply envious."
Did SP actually say that SSM was envious of him? Is Gargamuni trustworthy? Perhaps SP was in his cautious mood and felt suspicious of everybody due to his experiences.
This is pure rubbish. I am going to take bath now.
Braja-sundari Dasi - October 31, 2010 9:40 am
I don`t think any relevant discussion is possible with people who support their statements with citations from pada website.
Babhru Das - October 31, 2010 12:41 pm
I'm with Swami and Braja-sundari. I don't see anything to discuss here. I knew Sulochan and had a somewhat friendly relationship with him; in fact, we had a 40-minute conversation about three hours before he was murdered. I knew him well enough to be aware that his campaign was motivated largely by the hurt he felt at the loss of his wife to the New Vrindavan leadership. That was in the background of all he wrote. After Sulochan's murder, Puranjana found it in his interest to propagate a picture of Sulochan as a pure, saintly crusader.
Atmananda Dasa - November 1, 2010 12:06 am
Gaura-vijaya. With all due respect and appreciation for you. You know how much we are friends. Please don't read these crazy websites. Even if it was forwarded to you. It's really not good for your spiritual health.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - November 1, 2010 3:58 am
Gaura-vijaya. With all due respect and appreciation for you. You know how much we are friends. Please don't read these crazy websites. Even if it was forwarded to you. It's really not good for your spiritual health.
Thanks for your advice. Actually he asked me to respond to these things, so I brought this up. That is all.
Yamuna Dasi - November 1, 2010 9:05 am
Yesterday in the ashram in Sofia we celebrated the appearance of Shrila Shridhara Maharaj. It was so nice celebration, there was a cake of course... and the devotees asked me to tell some stories about him. I had the good fortune for one year to live in the same ashram with one devotee, his name was Gauranga prabhu, a disciple of SP and then of Shridhara M. He was the first ISKCON devotee who took shelter at Shridhara M. and lived and served in his ashram under his guidance for 10 years. From him during this one year I heard so many and so beautiful first-hand stories about SM... pure lila, pure nectar. Gauranga prabhu was the person who first published in London SM's "Bhagavad-Gita - The Hidden Treasure of the Sweeet Absolute".
Sometimes we were reaching the sunrise with his stories about SM, he is a great teller also, and the stories were also so living and so special. How a pure soul was dealing with the situations from life and how it was becoming an unforgettable adventure to be there and take part.
All these arguments about which I hear from time to time don't touch my heart. Even if SP had said something not so nice about SM (for which I am not convinced but I can accept the possibility it happened) I've heard what SM said when a devotee told him that SP said something not so nice about him. And for me what determines my opinion and feeling for SM is exactly this, how did he see the situation, this is the glorious side of a pure devotee, his vision about every situation.
And here is what I heard SM said when hearing what SP said:
"You see, this is what I was telling you, he's a GREAT preacher! A great preacher should be ready for the sake of preaching to sacrifice a friendship."
That was his glorious vision.
Arjuna at Kurukshetra had to sacrifice some friendships and even fight against his guru. Do we blame him for this?
Even if SP had said something, still at the very end of his life he apologized to his godbrothers for the offenses he made to them in the name of preaching and they had forgiven him. Why can't we do it?
Why are we ready to stick to "but he said it!" and neglect that he also said "I am so sorry for this! Please forgive me!"...
Isn't it logical the final words to have some more weight when we are trying to measure and judge? Vyasadeva wrote Shrimad Bhagavatam after Vedanta Sutra and we consider Bhagavatam as the natural commentary of the author to Vedanta Sutra. Why? Because Bhagavatam was his last word. Why don't we apply the same principle for the life and lila of SP and also for his last words? His last plea to his godbrothers was "Please forgive me for what I said, it was in the name of preaching!"
They forgave him. Why can't we do the same...
Gaura-Vijaya Das - November 1, 2010 6:33 pm
Yesterday in the ashram in Sofia we celebrated the appearance of Shrila Shridhara Maharaj. It was so nice celebration, there was a cake of course... and the devotees asked me to tell some stories about him. I had the good fortune for one year to live in the same ashram with one devotee, his name was Gauranga prabhu, a disciple of SP and then of Shridhara M. He was the first ISKCON devotee who took shelter at Shridhara M. and lived and served in his ashram under his guidance for 10 years. From him during this one year I heard so many and so beautiful first-hand stories about SM... pure lila, pure nectar. Gauranga prabhu was the person who first published in London SM's "Bhagavad-Gita - The Hidden Treasure of the Sweeet Absolute".Sometimes we were reaching the sunrise with his stories about SM, he is a great teller also, and the stories were also so living and so special. How a pure soul was dealing with the situations from life and how it was becoming an unforgettable adventure to be there and take part.
All these arguments about which I hear from time to time don't touch my heart. Even if SP had said something not so nice about SM (for which I am not convinced but I can accept the possibility it happened) I've heard what SM said when a devotee told him that SP said something not so nice about him. And for me what determines my opinion and feeling for SM is exactly this, how did he see the situation, this is the glorious side of a pure devotee, his vision about every situation.
And here is what I heard SM said when hearing what SP said:
"You see, this is what I was telling you, he's a GREAT preacher! A great preacher should be ready for the sake of preaching to sacrifice a friendship."
That was his glorious vision.
Arjuna at Kurukshetra had to sacrifice some friendships and even fight against his guru. Do we blame him for this?
Even if SP had said something, still at the very end of his life he apologized to his godbrothers for the offenses he made to them in the name of preaching and they had forgiven him. Why can't we do it?
Why are we ready to stick to "but he said it!" and neglect that he also said "I am so sorry for this! Please forgive me!"...
Isn't it logical the final words to have some more weight when we are trying to measure and judge? Vyasadeva wrote Shrimad Bhagavatam after Vedanta Sutra and we consider Bhagavatam as the natural commentary of the author to Vedanta Sutra. Why? Because Bhagavatam was his last word. Why don't we apply the same principle for the life and lila of SP and also for his last words? His last plea to his godbrothers was "Please forgive me for what I said, it was in the name of preaching!"
They forgave him. Why can't we do the same...
Thanks for your input.
Yamuna Dasi - November 3, 2010 8:39 pm
Welcome. If the devotees wish I can share here some of the incredible lilas with Shridhara Maharaj, which I heard from Gauranga prabhu, later B.P.Hrishikesh Maharaj.
These stories have not been published and it's a pity to be lost.
Braja-sundari Dasi - November 3, 2010 9:06 pm
Welcome. If the devotees wish I can share here some of the incredible lilas with Shridhara Maharaj, which I heard from Gauranga prabhu, later B.P.Hrishikesh Maharaj.These stories have not been published and it's a pity to be lost.
Yes, please. 
Atmananda Dasa - November 4, 2010 2:55 pm
Welcome. If the devotees wish I can share here some of the incredible lilas with Shridhara Maharaj, which I heard from Gauranga prabhu, later B.P.Hrishikesh Maharaj.These stories have not been published and it's a pity to be lost.
Maybe you could start a new thread for that. And of coarse, please do.
Yamuna Dasi - November 21, 2010 3:22 pm
OK, I will start retelling some stories from the life of Shrila Shridhara Maharaj which I heard from Hrishikesh Maharaj (former Gauranga prabhu) in a separate thread for better view in future.
But before doing this I would like to share here in this topic some more thoughts of mine about ISKCON's and some of its members accusations to SM.
I think that if some devotees from ISKCON are saying that they heard SP saying something bad about SM, or showing some unclear letters from him which say so, then by doing this they create very bad image of SP. Thus they depict him a quite a hipocrat who broadly glorifies SM in public and then in private says just the opposite. I cannot believe that SP was like this! He was brave enough to criticize his godbrothers both in public and in private, so why to apply such a double standard for SM?
Even if we accept that in some specific situation it had happen that SP said something critical regarding SM, shouldn't we consider also HOW many times he was praising him LOUDLY and saying that he even accepts him as his shiksha guru and inviting him to be the spiritual leader of ISKCON and on his death bed again advising his disciples for spiritual consultation to go to SM, and how many are the proofs that he said something critical about him? If a glorious man would praise 100 times someone and once or twice say something critical about him, is the person glorious or is he bad? How do we measure the glorification's value if repeated so many times publicly vs. some personal unproven or unclear remarks heard by one or two only?
It is clear that at the time when SP left this world the whole GBC knew that he trusts SM and told them to go and consult with him. And they were doing this for some time. How come that they didn't know that SP said SM is untrustworthy and envious? How come that only few other devotees knew about it and they did not tell this to GBC? The conversations of GBC and SM are as far as I know recorded and one can hear or read what did GBCs say and what did SM say. And from that one can use his mind and heart to decide who was right and who was wrong. What I see as a person from distance is that SP told GBC to consult with SM, but they were unable to understand and follow what he advised them and they accused him to be a demon.
(Could somebody please give me some links where I could hear or read the conversations between SM and GBC?)
All these misunderstood situations which start with "Srila Prabhupad said..." had caused enough problems to ISKCON. Srila Prabhupad said many things in many different situations and sometimes they were opposite. It takes intelligence to distinguish.
Once there was a scandal about ISKCON which reached court and SP said to the devotees in order to comfort them "any publicity is good!" But thanks God I never heard anybody quoting these words of his when a court was finding ISKCON guilty for cases of child abuse and pedofilia. Or some other quotes of SP regarding women which if quoted today would provoke large disagreement.
There is NO spiritual leader in ANY religion some of whose words not to sound strange or provoking or even absurd.
There are so many words of Jesus which sound very heavy and can provoke a large objection. And these are words written in the Gospels as something that he said. Just few examples:
1. "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14.26)
Can you imagine ANY spiritual leader nowadays daring to say this publicly as Jesus did? He would be sent to court for anti human propaganda and destroying family and human values and preaching hatred! And most probably any nowadays court would find him guilty to go to jail and would find his teaching wrong.
2. "Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire." (Matthew 18.8-9)
But only a mentally unstable person would follow literally what Jesus said here.
3. "He that is not with me is against me" (Luke 11.23)
If and spiritual leader nowadays would say this would be rejected as insane and pathologically self-centered.
4. "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." (John 14.6)
Anybody today who would claim that nobody can reach God except through him would be announced as mad or socially dangerous and would be sent either to mental hospital or to jail.
Still great part of humanity consider Jesus as Son of God and a great spiritual master. Why? Because they don't take his words out of the COMPLETE context of his life and teaching, but consider the WHOLE.
Everybody can be quoted and blamed for what he said! But a more balanced vision would be to see the overall of what the person did, said and completed in ALL his life. And by this to judge about him.
We can try to apply this to the lives of Srila Prabhupad and Sridhara Maharaj and also to their relation.