Tattva-viveka
"Guru illness.."
Gopakumardas - August 2, 2004 5:41 pm
My friend is communicating with a friend who is very worried about an issue going on in her spiritual family. It has caused much distress and fighting amongst the siblings. Here is her concern and question. Can you guys please share your thoughts and especially your insight into the validity of this issue? She values what Tattva Viveka and GM have to say about this----
A friend of mine is an initiated disciple of an ISKCON
guru. Her guru currently has some rather minor illness
and apparently made it clear to his disciples at a
darshan that he believes that his disciples who are
not fulfilling their initiation vows (chanting 16
rounds, following the 4 regs) are the cause of his
illness. His illness does not appear to be the type of
illness that is stress-related. This has resulted in
her Godsiblings writing to each other accusing each
other of making their Gurudeva sick.
Can not following one's initiation vows be the cause
of physical illness in one's diksa guru? Or is it more
likely that it is simply the result of his own karma?
It also seems the guru himself gave a talk in which he asked his disciples who was not practicing properly... and blamed them for his ailment.
Vrindaranya Dasi - August 2, 2004 9:26 pm
The qualified guru is able to deliver the disciples from the realm of karma, what to speak of being free from karma personally. Therefore, any apparent sickness of a guru is due to the arrangement of Krsna (assuming the guru is qualified).
If a disciple doesn’t chant his or her rounds, this is nama-aparadha. It is not in the realm of karma and it doesn’t affect the guru. The guru sets up parameters for the disciple to follow in order to make advancement. If the disciple doesn’t follow the parameters, then the guru is freed from obligation. An exception to this is Vaisnava aparadha. In the last initiations, Guru Maharaja said that in the case of a serious Vaisnava aparadha, even the Guru of the offender might be implicated.
If the guru initiates someone who doesn’t have sraddha (faith), this is considered nama-aparadha. However, the fact that some disciples don’t always chant their rounds does not indicate that they don’t have sraddha.
Ys,
Vrindaranya
Vamsidhari Dasa - August 3, 2004 1:55 pm
I really like Vrindaranya's answer which seems simple but comprehensive. It is impossible for me to claim any knowledge in this matter beyond common sense and that leads me to say "GIVE ME A BRAKE!" 
If that was the case most of the ISKON Gurus would be constantly ill. Of course I mean no offense by my mondane comment and beg forgiveness for approaching this topic lightly.....
Gopakumardas - August 3, 2004 5:24 pm
Very nice answer Vrindaranya. I would like to hear more about how to know that the guru is qualified in the sense that he is no longer affected by karma?
What are the characteristics of such a person?
I suspect that many gurus in the greater mission have not achieved this, but how can one know?
If they have not then they ARE subjuct to such effects?
Why is it that if a follower does not stay within the perimeters of the gurus guidelines the guru is not subject to be affected?
Thanks,
Gopa
Anyone else chiming in?
Gaura Krsna Dasa - August 3, 2004 7:30 pm
It would seem that if one is still in the habit of blaming others for one's own condition, then one is not sufficiently grounded in self realization. Blaming others makes one's life hellish and I speak from experience. Given that someone is still stuck in this blaming consciousness, he or she is likely to be effected by assoication of others, more so than someone who endures the fruition of karma with patience, tolerance, and humility. One's association, whether selected intentionally or forced by circumstance, can certainly make one sick in various ways. Sadhana can mitigate or protect one from external influences. One can uplift those around oneself rather than be poisoned by them, but it takes inner strength and a little higher vision.
Although there is little if anything to be gained by criticizing other Vaisnavas, one has to wonder why a devotee who desires to uplift others and would supposedly have gained his position due to that intention, would still be blaming them for his situation. It's almost like he is accusing his disciples of black magic. A Vaisnava is always above magic. If he is falling short of being a Vaisnava, or even a yogi for that matter, and has now fallen to the level of a magician, then he has a lot to learn about metaphysics. That is, unless this is just a trick to motivate his disciples to chant more.
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - August 3, 2004 10:41 pm
Different tradition, but interesting thought...
Prolonging the Life of the Guru
(Advice from Kyabje Zopa Rinpoche in answer to requests by students wanting to know how best prolong the life of the Guru and avoid obstacles that can cause sickness and the Guru's life to be shortened.)
Most important is to remember with feeling the Guru's kindness, to follow his advice then remember one's mistakes and confess.
Long-life pujas purify negative karma .and accumulate merit - generally speaking life can be lengthened by accumulating merit - but the best kind of long-life puja is not just the ritual but to cherish the advice with the thought of correctly devoting to the virtuous friend. The Guru should be viewed from one's own side as the Buddha and his kindness remembered. One should feel regret for not practising properly in the past and make a decision to practice better in the future even in the ordinary sense of being a better person.
The heaviest effect on the Guru's life is degenerating or breaking the first root tantric vow to belittle the Guru which means giving up the Guru as an object of respect. It also involves having anger or especially heresy arising in the mind towards the Guru. When there is heresy, the mind is barren like a desert having no faith and where nothing can grow. This can cause the holy mind to be disturbed, like with sadness.
Sometimes students who request secret tantric teachings and not having devotion, can cause the Guru (in the context of the secret teachings) to break samaya as the teacher has difficulty saying no. But if the student has the sincere thought to try to develop and keep the vows etc., then it is good. Although it may be difficult to keep all the vows because the student's mind hasn't even the realisation of impermanence and death.
Harmonious sincerity in obtaining advice can inspire the Guru. This can give him the interest to have the intention to pray in an attempt to have a long-life even if from the Guru's side there isn't the complete capability to control the elements.
It's also important to be aware that the breaking of root tantric vows, samaya and so forth is also a danger to the student's life resulting in sickness and even in their own life being shortened, not to mention suffering in future lives. But of course, as explained in the teachings, any degeneration or breaking of the three levels of vow can be purified through confession etc.
So these things can cause the Guru to take disease and pass away early. It's a dependent arising. This can happen because of the karma of the group. For example, with my Gurus, they don't have karma but they show the appearance.
CONCLUSION:
A great deal depends on how well the students practice Dharma. How much self-cherishing thought there is that causes harm to oneself and others. I don't think the problem is so much to do with the fact that the students don't know what's the cause of the Guru taking disease and passing away early. For some students the cause is not being thoughtful and not taking the opportunity to change the life for the better. That is, not putting the teachings into practice.
VAJRAYANA INSTITUTE, 22 Linthorpe St, Newtown, NSW 2042, Australia
Babhru Das - August 3, 2004 11:56 pm
Vrindaranya’s response makes good sense to me because it’s very comprehensive and satisfying. It seems to me a bad idea to try to speculate on another Vaishnava’s motives. We are better served by opening ourselves to the spirit of generosity. On the other hand, I would find it unfortunate that someone in the guru’s position were to blame his dependents for his discomfort. My own experience at helping disciples is limited, so I can’t speak on the basis of much direct experience. However, if I analogize that service with parenting or teaching, I think I can get a perspective on such a situation. I hope I haven’t blamed bouts of flu, smashed toes, or migraines on my students or on my daughters. I can’t see how it would benefit them, and that should be at the core of all such relationships. Teaching and parenting are about giving; the kind of teaching that is the sad-guru’s responsibility is even more so.
So we can see how important it is that the prospective guru and disciples carefully examine each other before making the commitment of initiation. It seems to be that the guru’s motive in everything he does should be to inspire progressive faith and surrender in his disciples. And I believe that positive inspiration is more likely to yield the long-term benefits we hope for. I’m not sure making them feel guilty for everything that happens to him will accomplish that as disciples become more experienced in devotional service. I can only hope that I would be able to draw from deeper water to find ways to encourage my students to become more committed to their practice.
Gopa asked what characteristics we should seek as evidence that someone is qualified to guide disciples. That’s a big question which may be explored from different perspectives. One way to look at it may be to start with the process of devotional service Mahaprabhu gave to Sanatan, as recounted by Kaviraja Goswami in Ch. 22 of Sri Chaitanya-charitamrita. As the Lord describes the 64 items of regulated service a devotee should accept, the first 12 are taking shelter of a spiritual master, accepting initiation from him, offering service to him, making relevant inquiries and hearing from him about the science of devotion, following the example of the guru and past teachers, willingness to accept or reject whatever is required to satisfy the Lord, living in a holy place such as Mathura or Vrindavan, accepting only what’s necessary to keep body and soul together, fasting on Ekadashi, worshipping dhatri trees (anyone know what they are?), banyan trees, brahmanas, cows, and Vaishnavas, avoiding offenses in service and chanting, and giving up the company of nondevotees. The 13th item is not accepting an unlimited number of disciples. In Easy Journey to Other Planets, Srila Prabhupada writes, “This means that a candidate who has successfully followed the first twelve items can also become a spiritual master himself, just as a student becomes a monitor in class with a limited number of disciples.” So from one perspective, it seems that someone with a strong sadhana may be able to take on the service of guiding some other devotees, according to his or her capacity.
There are other ways of considering a guru’s qualification to serve in that way as well, such as whether his or her faith is weak or strong, the depth of scriptural understanding, etc. In the 11th canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, the sage Prabhuddha says that anyone who actually desires real happiness, which is unattainable even in Heaven, must take full shelter of a spiritual master whose qualities are as follows: sabde pare ca nisnatam, brahmany upasamasrayam--he must have realization of the conclusions of the scriptures, and he must be detached from anything other than service to the Supreme. In one lecture Srila Prabhupada comments that nisnatam means that he “has taken a dip in the ocean of this Vedic literature.” I’ve always liked that. We’re looking for someone immersed in spiritual sound and dedicated to its service.
Also, Srila Jiva Goswami warns us not to accept a spiritual master to satisfy the conventions of family, social, or institutional customs.
There are other considerations to discuss as well, but this post is quite long enough. Anyone else?
Vrindaranya Dasi - August 4, 2004 2:04 am
When a devotee is not affected by karma: Bhakti is the only process that can uproot all stages of karma including prarabdha karma, karma that is presently bearing fruit. The first characteristic of bhakti is klesaghni, it provides relief from material distress, which has three causes: sin, material desire, and ignorance (the root cause). Sinful actions cause unmanifest reactions, which result in direct physical or emotional suffering and increased sinful proclivity. Bhakti uproots all these stages of sin. Klesaghni manifests at the stage of nistha, steadiness in devotional service. Also fully manifest at this stage of bhakti is subhada, all-auspiciousness, which means that such a devotee benefits everyone, attracts everyone, produces good qualities, and bestows superior happiness. Thus in a basic sense, one’s karma is overcome at the stage of nistha, although some slight traces remain up to the stage of bhava.
How to tell a devotee is at this stage: For a thorough explanation of the characteristics of one at the stage of nistha, see Madhurya Kadambini. Here is a rough idea: “The essential yardstick for measuring perfectly the depth of nisthita-bhakti, or the lack of it (anisthita-bhakti), is whether hearing and chanting has intensified or has stagnated. An increase of hearing and chanting thus indicates a rise in nisthita-bhakti, while any decrease implies the presence of anisthita-bhakti.”
When a devotee no longer commits nama-aparadha: Nama-aparadhas, such as not following the orders of the spiritual master, are overcome in the stage of anartha-nivrtti, which is the stage below nistha.
Do the disciples’ karma and nama-aparadhas affect the guru: Ordinary sin and nama-aparadhas (other than possibly Vaisnava aparadha) are not transferred to the guru. Where does it say that they are? The guru manages the disciples’ karma and gives the means to overcome karma—bhakti. A guru is not affected by a disciple who doesn’t follow the guru’s guidelines because such a person isn’t a true disciple inasmuch as disciple means one who follows the discipline given by the guru. Here is something that Srila Prabhupada has said about this:
Regarding your question of an initiated person falling prey to the maya, the answer is that so long we are in this material world, there is always chance of being spoiled by Maya, so we must stick with vow to the Lotus Feet of Krishna. An initiated devotee is given the chance for becoming free from the entanglement of karma wheel. Initiated means beginning, not perfection. The Spiritual Master's business is to guide him to the perfectional point. But if one does not strictly follow the guidance of a bona fide Spiritual Master his initiation does not bear any meaning. The initiation performance is an agreement by the disciples to abide by the order of the Spiritual Master. Therefore, if the Spiritual Master is bona fide and the disciple is serious to abide by His order, then the success is sure. But if a disciple follows strictly the devotional way of life, he is no longer a karmi and all his activities which may appear to be like ordinary work, or it may be activity according to Scriptural injunction, are counted as devotional service. And devotional service in all circumstances is free from the actions and reactions of karma. I hope this will clear the matter.
If someone says that the guru takes all the disciple’s karma at initiation and later says that he or she becomes sick when the disciple commits a sin or doesn’t chant rounds, one may ask: Why wasn’t the guru affected when he or she first took all the disciple’s karma? One would imagine that the karma of a disciple (piled up from lifetimes of sin) would be much greater at that time.
Guru Maharaja has explained that the guru doesn’t take all the disciple’s karma, but rather acts something like a transcendental bankruptcy manager.
Vrindaranya Dasi - August 4, 2004 2:18 am
Babhru brought up the point about not initiating an unlimited number of disciples. I’ve heard this as not initiating too many disciples. What is too many disciples—what a guru can handle--depends on the guru. To initiate more disciples than one can handle would be an offense.
One could have mental distress over disciples who don’t follow, but I have noticed that Guru Maharaja seems to be less concerned with minor transgressions than the transgressors’ fellow godsiblings. Guru Maharaja has more faith in bhakti; that it is a gradual but powerful process. He knows that it will work and he can see how far along disciples are, not expecting Mercedes performance from someone who is riding a bicycle at present. In addition to this, an uttama devotee sees everything going on according to the will of Krsna. This does deflate the tendency to worry.
Dayal Govinda Dasa - August 4, 2004 3:14 am
I would like to present myself as an interesting case example of Vrindaranya's point about the Guru managing our Karma.
Most of you know that I left Audarya a few years ago due to some immature desires on my part. Guru maharaja told me right before I left that "as soon as you stop following my instructions, your old karma will be right there waiting for you".
I didn't heed his warning.
As soon I stepped of the plane in England (dramatic emphasis) I was met by my old karma exactly as I left it prior to taking up Krsna consciousness…I mean exactly, it was scary now I look back on it.
I fell in with the same crowd of friends, listened to the same music, dressed the same (almost) etc etc, and it brought me the same amount of happiness…nil!!!
I asked Guru maharaj before I returned that "will my devotional life be waiting for me in the same way as my Karma was?", the answer was plain to see.
By his mercy I was able to reinstate myself under the shade of his feet, firmly vowing that I would never be shaken again.
So that is how it works. The Guru negotiates with the karmic debtors and sets boundaries to work within. i.e, as long as we follow the instructions of the Guru we only receive a token amount of our due karma. This, as I think may have been said before, allows us to undertake the process of Bhakti which will ultimately erradicate any and all traces of Karma, including prarabda (that which is already manifest).
Humbly
Dayal Govinda dasa brahmacari
Jason - August 8, 2004 5:17 am
Hare Krsna!
Please accept my obeisances. All glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga!
My name is Jason. I live in SF and I've been practicing Krsna Consciousness since about '93 or so. I just moved here from Chicago where I was actively serving my spiritual master HH Candramauli Swami and Srila Prabhupada by working for the ISKCON Prison Ministry. I still do my services from here, along with some other work for my guru.
The bay area is a hard place to be for someone used to a lot of association, nevertheless, I'll give it a whirl. I will be honest, the ISKCON "scene" here is pretty lacking to say the least, and it's unfortunate considering that in the 70's this was the place to be!
I'm not into politics. I just want good vaisnava association. I've wasted lifetimes on who knows what kind of nonsense, and finally I've had the good fortune of being allowed to access the wee beginnings of this philosophy...I'm not gonna get distracted anymore.
My guru maharaja understands that HH BV Tripurari Maharaja is an amazingly advanced disciple of not just one...but two otherworldly, advanced souls. He knows that I can benefit from taking association wherever it may manifest. I'm lucky in that sense.
So....I wanted to say something/ask something concerning this really nice thread that has been going on. My guru maharaja always refers to himself as "one of those sannyasi's that isn't lenient when it comes to chanting your rounds." He pushes me to learn to chant the right way, with concentration and the desire to fully understand that this is my "one on one" time with Krsna. I have read books by other devotees that have been good tools for learning how to chant with better results, but I still find it hard.
Sometimes, though I chant my rounds, I feel like I'm doing it because it's required and because I don't want to disappoint maharaja. I know that the benefits are great, but I just don't know if I'm progressing as I should.
Question.....
If a person is following the instructions of the spiritual master with sincerity and the desire to improve....but it's just not quite happening yet, does one's spiritual master still feel the effects?
I hope to meet you all in time....or perhaps tomorrow at Ratha Yatra...
Sri Sri Jagannatha Baladeva and Lady Subhadra ki jai!
Your servant,
Bhakta Jason
Swami - August 13, 2004 3:30 pm
One wonders if the information this thread is based on is entirely accurate. Srila Prabhupada used to say things like this about suffering on account of his disciples, but for the most part he went on to balme himself for the offense of accepting too many unqualified disciples. Perhaps the guru involved has said something like this out of humility.
Furthermore unqualified disciples who abuse their diksa my disturb the bhajan of the guru, but as has been pointed out, this does not mean that he will again come under the influence of karma. In this regard Bhaktivinoda Thakura has mentioned that the method for overcoming any impediment caused by the offence of accepting an unqualified disciple is to publicly renounce such a disciple. Just what constitutes an unqualified disicple is, however, a topic unto itself. After all, anistha bhajana kriya is a reality for practically all disciples at some point. Certainly if a disciple offends Vaisnavas and Vaisnavism he or she should be either rectified, or if this is not possible, rejected.
Brahma Dasa - August 13, 2004 8:00 pm
There were a number of disciples who publicly rejected Srila Prabhupada when they became Christians or went over to the Babajis etc, and more who just lost faith and dropped out of Krsna consciousness altogether. My question is do we know of any instances when Srila Prabhupada or Srila Sridhara Maharaja publicly rejected any of their disciples?
Babhru Das - August 13, 2004 8:27 pm
One wonders if the information this thread is based on is entirely accurate. Srila Prabhupada used to say things like this about suffering on account of his disciples, but for the most part he went on to balme himself for the offense of accepting too many unqualified disciples. Perhaps the guru involved has said something like this out of humility.
It also occurred to me that the report may not be entirely accurate. I certainly hope this is the case, and that's why I used the conditional in my response. Based on my experience as a parent and a teacher, as well as conversations with friends who have disciples, I can begin to imagine the sense of responsiblity felt by someone who accepts the service of initiating others into our practice. But there's no way I can fathom the depth of that responsiblity, so I think it's well to be generous. This is something I've learned from my association with Swami, and I'm very grateful to him for that.
I think we could learn from cases where Srila Prabhupada or Srila SRidhar Maharaja may have rejected disciples, but I'm nervous about using names. Perhaps it's less of a problem here because the board is private. There are other online discussions of what appears to be an instance of Srila Prabhupada rejecting two disciples, but I'm not so sure. He seems to dismiss them at first, but as it becomes clear to him that he was responding to bad advice from his leaders, he seems to soften considerably.
Satyaki and I just spent considerable time with old friends who were dealt with harshly by a godbrother-guru on the basis of rumors and gossip that had been passed to him. They gave up his company and eventually most of their practice of Krishna consciousness over the years. They still like to chant in kirtan, but that's mixed in with a lot of more or less pagan practices and psychology, some of it strongly influenced by Sufism. I'm sure many devotee friends consider them to be "ex-devotees" (although my reading of Srila Prabhupada's purport to SB 1.5.19 makes me wonder if there is such a person), but I prefer to see what Krishna consciousness is there under the other ideas. In fact, the first night they stayed with us, Brishni had a dream about Srila Prabhupada, perhaps the first he has ever had. He was actually very happy about that and half joked that it was due to the strong sense of Krishna consciousness in the house. In any event, I think that it's wise to be wary of judging too harshly anyone who has taken up Krishna consciousness.
Jason - August 14, 2004 9:21 am
Hare Krsna!
I work for the ISKCON Prison Ministry and have to good fortune of corresponding with many sincere, though incarcerated devotees. Some are simply interested on a surface level, others are quite engaged; reading, chanting, writing and preaching to others.
Since this site is somewhat private, I will mention that I regularly correspond with one disciple of Srila Prabhupada's (from the New Vrindavan area) who did something that was incredibly wrong, and HE WILL NEVER BE RELEASED FROM PRISON IN THIS LIFETIME. He has not only changed his life, but he's quite possibly one of the most sincere and inspirational devotees that I have met. He corresponds with a few of his godbrothers, but for the most part he has been left to fend for himself. He actually has beautiful Sri Sri Gaura Nitai deities in his cell along with tons of books. He is practicing and maintaining temple standards in regards to deity worship and sadhanna. He has accepted his situation and studies incessantly, teaching others about bhakti yoga, and well, I just feel so bad for him sometimes. I can't imagine what he's going through. Krsna has really taken EVERYTHING from him....yet he's so peaceful.
Is it possible to reconcile things with your spiritual master in a scenario like this, despite the fact that Srila Prabhupada had already left when these things occured? It's one thing to be able to seek forgiveness and reconciliation in person from one's guru....but in seperation?
I often wonder how Srila Prabhupada feels towards his disciples who have really had a rough time. Could the spiritual master be affected, though not physically present? From the Christian perspective (in which I was raised), God is always willing to forgive...but is Guru?
Your servant,
Bhakta Jason.
Vrindaranya Dasi - August 14, 2004 5:00 pm
God is always willing to forgive...but is Guru?
Guru is kripa-avatar, the incarnation of God's mercy, so he is even more merciful than God himself.
Babhru Das - August 14, 2004 5:33 pm
God is always willing to forgive...but is Guru?
I heard from a godbrother that Srila Prabhupada once said something like, "Krishna will always forgive, but if he won't then Radharani will. And if she won't, I will.
For all my talk of generosity yesterday, I have to admit that I do wonder about this particular act, if this is who I think it is.
Babhru Das - August 15, 2004 4:01 pm
I just want to clarify my last post. Th act I referred to there is what is responsible for the incarceration of Jason's correspondent, not the complaint about disciples' laxity that started this thread.
Vrindaranya Dasi - August 16, 2004 3:03 am
Sometimes, though I chant my rounds, I feel like I'm doing it because it's required and because I don't want to disappoint maharaja. I know that the benefits are great, but I just don't know if I'm progressing as I should.
If a person is following the instructions of the spiritual master with sincerity and the desire to improve....but it's just not quite happening yet, does one's spiritual master still feel the effects?
There is a lot going on beneath the surface if we sincerely chant and follow the instructions of our spiritual master. For example, the first karma to be eradicated is aprarabda-karma, negative effects that we don’t even know we have coming to us yet! So all this karma that we have coming to us is being cleared and we don’t even know anything is happening. The spiritual master can see so much progress that we aren’t aware of.
One doesn’t get a consistent taste for chanting until the stage of ruci and it is not until asakti that the Lord immediately appears in your heart when you chant. You are at the stage of sadhu-sanga, and once you take initiation, bhajana-kriya proper begins. In this stage there are so many anarthas to be cleared from the heart, but if you chant sincerely, you should occasionally get a taste. This taste, combined with frequently reading about the glories of the holy name, will help you maintain enthusiasm during the uphill trek through the domain of clearing anarthas. Try to keep the sugarcane analogy in mind: when a person has jaundice, the cure (sugarcane) will taste bitter, but by continually eating the sugarcane, eventually health will be regained and the sugarcane will taste sweet. Let your lack of taste fuel your sincere crying out for help. Krsna will help you.
Jason - August 16, 2004 4:22 am
Vrindaranya dd:
Thanks for the encouragement, and the reference about sugarcane, that was nice.
It's not that I never experience something special while chanting...it's just that it's not consistent, and I understand that at initiation certain things will change. Even Vamsidhari prabhu has talked with me about that before.
Thanks.
Jason
Jason - August 16, 2004 4:29 am
Thanks for the nice comments about the mercy of guru and Krsna. That nice statement that Srila Prabhupada said was very sweet. I surely hopes he is forgiving his disciples despite being physically present.
In regards to my corresponding with certain inmates, it doesn't really matter WHO...the person is sincerely remorseful and struggling to servie to the best of their ability. I am trying to do this service to be a devotee friend to those who have no friends, and to whatever degree I may be qualified, to try to speak a little about Krsna. I'm not trying to judge.
Thanks for the really nice comments.
Babhru Das - August 16, 2004 5:05 am
In regards to my corresponding with certain inmates, it doesn't really matter WHO...the person is sincerely remorseful and struggling to servie to the best of their ability. I am trying to do this service to be a devotee friend to those who have no friends, and to whatever degree I may be qualified, to try to speak a little about Krsna. I'm not trying to judge.
I understand and appreciate what you're doing. I have known Chandrasekhar and Syamapriya, two devotees working hard with the prison ministry, for many years. I think it's a wonderful service.
I also don't intend to judge this individual. I was candidly admitting my own shortcoming. Knowing the victim complicates things. I'm happy you're able to encourage him.
Rama-priya - September 7, 2004 4:53 pm
I would like to present myself as an interesting case example of Vrindaranya's point about the Guru managing our Karma.Most of you know that I left Audarya a few years ago due to some immature desires on my part. Guru maharaja told me right before I left that "as soon as you stop following my instructions, your old karma will be right there waiting for you".
I didn't heed his warning.
As soon I stepped of the plane in England (dramatic emphasis) I was met by my old karma exactly as I left it prior to taking up Krsna consciousness…I mean exactly, it was scary now I look back on it.
I fell in with the same crowd of friends, listened to the same music, dressed the same (almost) etc etc, and it brought me the same amount of happiness…nil!!!
I asked Guru maharaj before I returned that "will my devotional life be waiting for me in the same way as my Karma was?", the answer was plain to see.
By his mercy I was able to reinstate myself under the shade of his feet, firmly vowing that I would never be shaken again.
So that is how it works. The Guru negotiates with the karmic debtors and sets boundaries to work within. i.e, as long as we follow the instructions of the Guru we only receive a token amount of our due karma. This, as I think may have been said before, allows us to undertake the process of Bhakti which will ultimately erradicate any and all traces of Karma, including prarabda (that which is already manifest).
Humbly
Dayal Govinda dasa brahmacari
Regarding to this I would like to ask how to recognise that someone don't follow instructions and how be sure that one follow them.
I understand that if someone do not follow instructions one can met own old karma and by this our spiritual progress can be very difficult and maybe even stop. So how to avoid such dangerous situation?
With deep respect
Yours servant
Rama-priya dd
Vrindaranya Dasi - September 14, 2004 12:14 pm
Dayal Govinda was referring to following the basic initiation vows: following the four regulative principles and chanting the prescribed number of rounds.
Bhakta Ivar - October 15, 2004 6:47 pm
When one's guru becomes sick, it's because he didn't live in a healthy way. Not a very esoteric statement, but one that can be verified by practical experience. Our (Vaisnava) cooking is not based on health, it is based on pleasing Krishna. So the tastier, the better. The Indian diet increases the likelyhood of becoming a diabetic for example.
Our ghee is often used several times before being thrown away, we consume milk, we eat too much sugar, and we don't take healthy oils (flaxseed, wheatgerm, olive etc.).
We start the day without drinking (enough), or the right kind of liquids.
We don't sit in a healthy way, and thus we get back problems.
We mix fruits and fruit juice with other type of foods.
We eat only two or three times a day, and thus tend to overeat.
These are some of the main causes of devotee diseases. Chronic headaches, backproblems, diabetes, indigestion and innumerable other problems such as loss of hearing, always have a physical cause. These are not caused by the disciples not following some regulative principles. I have heard a guru say: "I'm so sick because disciples like yourself do not follow my instructions." So you have to feel very guilty while he adds some more sugar to his evening milk.
Ivar
Madangopal - October 16, 2004 12:45 am
When one's guru becomes sick, it's because he didn't live in a healthy way.
I like your style Ivar. I've been enjoying your posts. Good common sense.
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - October 16, 2004 1:09 am
When one's guru becomes sick, it's because he didn't live in a healthy way.
First of all, I would not generalize. Second, Guru usually leads pretty ascetic way of life (sannyasa), so I'm not sure "more sugar to his evening milk" is a leading cause of problems. Some had been living on rice and bitter melons for many years. Rise early, lead Spartan way of life, be a vegetarian -- doesn't sound too unhealthy to me.
Madangopal - October 16, 2004 11:36 am
Some had been living on rice and bitter melons for many years. Rise early, lead Spartan way of life, be a vegetarian -- doesn't sound too unhealthy to me.
Many of the gurus of today were the enthusiastic bhaktas/brahmacaris of the past. Years of deep fried foods, gulabjamon juice and sweet rice take their toll.
Ivar is just making the point that blame should not fall so heavily on the disciple for the guru's illness and that this idea can and has been used in a manipulative way. Of course the disciple is duty bound to carry out his/her end of the agreement (initiation), but we should not always default to the mystical, esoteric, "far-out" explanations for everyday phenomenon. The guru, despite whatever level of realization they possess, IS human.
Dayal Govinda Dasa - October 16, 2004 4:27 pm
The guru, despite whatever level of realization they possess, IS human.
And is directly Krsna as well, Saksad Hari, lets not forget that side of things
That's acintya bhedabheda for you.
Bhakta Ivar - October 18, 2004 1:45 pm
Some had been living on rice and bitter melons for many years. Rise early, lead Spartan way of life, be a vegetarian -- doesn't sound too unhealthy to me.
Rice and bitter melons does sound unhealthy to me, at least in the long term! Or did they take fruit in the morning, with some essential oils?
With my poste I didn't mean to judge those who eat luxurious foods. I meant that living in a healthy way is not such an easy thing, even if one's intention is to eat in a very healthy way. For example, one may be convinced that the macrobiotic diet is very healthy, only to discover after a few years that one's organs are full of toxins. It's not their fault, yet they should also not blame others (i.e. disciples) for what they have essentially done to themselves.
Aside from the gulab jamuns and khir foods like rice and kitchari are not necessarily the healthiest things to eat in the morning. Nor is thrice cooked milk, even though taken with the positive objective of nourishing the brain.
So my point is that disease and infirmity are always, or let's say in most cases, the responsibility of the direct caretaker of the body (in this case the guru). But just like being intuitive, it's not required that a guru is a health expert. Who is anyway? There are so many different opinions!
Ivar
PS: Though I appreciate Ayurveda, I highly recommend treating physical problems with orthomolecular supplements, as well as using daily supplements. If anyone needs some free advice, you can contact me (I'm a certified orthomolecular therapist).
Bhakta Ivar - October 18, 2004 2:55 pm
I like your style Ivar. I've been enjoying your posts. Good common sense.
I sometimes feel that my common sense is an obstacle. Guru Maharaja has specifically discouraged me to depend too much on it. Because in the end, bhakti yoga can only be 'understood' with the heart.
Bhakta Ivar - October 18, 2004 3:08 pm
Dear Madangopal prabhu,
I just read your profile. So you have discussed philosophy with Kundali and Kurmarupa too? I guess that explains your appreciation of my posts.
Ivar
Madangopal - October 18, 2004 8:17 pm
I like your style Ivar. I've been enjoying your posts. Good common sense.
I sometimes feel that my common sense is an obstacle. Guru Maharaja has specifically discouraged me to depend too much on it. Because in the end, bhakti yoga can only be 'understood' with the heart.
Hey Ivar!
I knew we must have some connection. I could just sense it in the way you speak. Yes, this is the challenge of people like us. To have Krishna Consciousness make sense, appeal to logic and reason, and to see through fallacious representation of it. At the same time to get lost in its irrationality, illogic and transcendental (as opposed to common) sense. After all, common sense is for common people right? We have an uncommon path. It is our good fortune to have the association of Tripurari Swami. He has impressed me as a sadhu who demonstrates a balance of critical thinking and higher taste. I thirst for more association like his. It is nice to have yours, who I can relate to.
Nice to meet you. It would be good to correspond with you some.
Babhru Das - October 18, 2004 10:04 pm
Many of the gurus of today were the enthusiastic bhaktas/brahmacaris of the past. Years of deep fried foods, gulabjamon juice and sweet rice take their toll.
As one of those brahmacharis of the past, I find it amusing that you assume the brahmacharis lived on such foods. Perhaps some temples' daily meal were more opulent, but where I was a brahmachari the temple was so poor, at least after early 1971, food was often less than simple. For quite a while, the only milk even the Deities had was made from pwdered milk. When I first joined, early in 1970, there were very few devotees, so it was possible to eat nicely. Still, our meals were simple, centered around rice, dahl, and chapattis.
It may well be that some of the health problems of devotees reaching middle and old age (as these gurus are) is that they may have thrown themselves into their service and accepted such poor living conditions that they neglected their health when younger.
Bhakta Ivar - October 19, 2004 3:49 am
It may well be that some of the health problems of devotees reaching middle and old age (as these gurus are) is that they may have thrown themselves into their service and accepted such poor living conditions that they neglected their health when younger.
That may very well be. Very good point indeed!
Madangopal - October 19, 2004 2:59 pm
As one of those brahmacharis of the past, I find it amusing that you assume the brahmacharis lived on such foods.
I do not want to make any generalizations. I was not there. I have heard plenty of stories of people who were such brahmacaris living on Eagle Brand condensed milk for example, drinking straight from the can at regular meals! Or blocks of cream cheese with a potato because they would not make the endeavor for more... It hurts just to think of it. I was merely trying to support Ivar's original contrasting point that health choices by the now guru's plays a part in their present health.
My association with many of those 1st generation devotees has given me a picture of a time when there was an extreme between the two, sense gratification (mainly through prasad) and sense denial in extreme living, working conditions. Living life on either or both extremes certainly leads to ill health.
Bhakta Ivar - October 19, 2004 3:17 pm
there was an extreme between the two, sense gratification (mainly through prasad) and sense denial in extreme living, working conditions.
Fasting and feasting. In that regard, compare the healthy way of breaking a fast (with some water and later a piece of fruit) with the ecstatic Gaudiya Vaisnava way (with an endless variety of greasy and sweet foodstuffs). And then going to sleep!
Those who have a fully transcendantal body may handle that easily. All others will suffer consequences.
That's an interesting thing too by the way. It's not merely sinful activity which produces physical suffering.
Ivar