Tattva-viveka
Doubt about obtaining perfection through sadhana
Atmananda Dasa - December 8, 2010 10:53 pm
This is a doubt brought up on the India divine website. I will just copy the text here. I think it is a very interesting question. Something that I have been wondering about in my struggles with my own sadhana and seeing many other devotees who really cannot seem to maintain any strength and regularity in their practice of sadhana. I have recently read in Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura's Bhakti-tattva-viveka that one must practice firm and intense sadhana for a very long time to cross beyond anartha-nivritti. I have been struggling and failing to maintain regularity in my sadhana for the past few years and have felt very discouraged at time by this. I have heard that the solution is sadhu-sanga and have experienced that when the sadhu (Swami) is near I gain enthusiasm and determination, I feel very hopeful and my practice can become almost effortless then. But I am not always blessed with this good company. What am I missing? and how can I make my sadhana steady and intense to cross this anartha-nivritti?
How come kripa-siddha always gets ignored?Fact is, a western devotee chanting 16 measly rounds a day and struggling to meet the minimum standard has NO CHANCE of becoming sadhana-siddha.Sadhana-siddha is for greatly austere devotees whose sadhana is thousands of times more rigid than western devotees.Reality is that we should better be praying for and thinking about kripa-siddha.Only an arrogant disciple would ever think he can attain perfection via sadhana-siddha.
Nitaisundara Das - December 9, 2010 12:04 am
It is not like sadhana siddha is without krpa. And he or she will see only krpa anyway. After all, only bhakti gives bhakti. The tone of the quote seems misguided, as if a sadhaka is not praying for krpa unless he or she is praying to be a krpa siddha. the sadhaka prays for krpa to increase sadhana. The other approach seems more toward arrogant to me: "I am hopeless, O Lord, so rather than trying I am just going to wait for you to make me perfect." As it is said "act as if all depends on you but know that it depends on God."
But the effort/mercy dichotomy does always seem difficult to fully sort out.
Atmananda Dasa - December 9, 2010 2:18 am
What am I missing? and how can I make my sadhana steady and intense to cross this anartha-nivritti?
Gaurasundara Das - December 9, 2010 2:23 am
I try to think that sadhana is krpa. For example Guru Maharaj has said that the rounds that our guru gives us to chant is his mercy.
It's not like you get krpa and then hurray you get to skip sadhana. The path is the goal, green/ripe mango etc...
There is so much mercy already distributed towards which we can apply our effort. But we still need to pray for even more just to apply ourselves
Nitai is right, it is tricky to figure out...
Gauravani Dasa - December 9, 2010 3:02 pm
I really appreciate this discussion.
Atmananda, I think your concern for maintaining steady sadhana speaks volumes about you. Instead of rationalizing it away, you're approaching it with honesty. My dandavats to you.
I struggle with this as well but I am comforted by the fact that I have someone like GM in my life at all. So many people do not have any example of the beauty and simplicity of selfless devotion to Guru and Gaura in their lives. We are very fortunate to be on the path at all and even more fortunate to have GM guiding us by example and precept.
Devyah-pati Das SERBIA - December 10, 2010 9:58 am
What am I missing? and how can I make my sadhana steady and intense to cross this anartha-nivritti?
a.) Allow me to start like this:
YOU HAVE TO LISTEN GM LECTURES. (sorry to write you in capital letters, but this is first thing.)
I will quote you: "I have heard that the solution is sadhu-sanga and have experienced that when the sadhu (Swami) is near I gain enthusiasm and determination, I feel very hopeful and my practice can become almost effortless then. But I am not always blessed with this good company."
I listen GM evey day. Every day hear his voice at least 5 minutes, and then increase as much as possible.
My average listening is 1 hour every day. I consider it to be my most important sadhana.
If you start this practice, believe me, you will feel his presence in your room and in your
thoughts every day. What he sait about this topic, and that, etc... Then there would be
no question that he is not around. He will be all the time around, that you will think that
he will now enter the room! I play the lecture on, I put full screen his photo sitting on a
vyasasan, and I look and listen. I make souvenirs for living, so I work with my hands,
and at the same time look and listen him.
b.) You say: "...and how can I make my sadhana steady and intense..."
The solution word is - CONSISTENCY.
I heard this word from GM.
This word (consistent) uses GM in his lecture "Trinad Api Sunicena" in relation to hearing from a guru
(as an answer to one devotees question).
Go to the link:
http://swamitripurari.com/2001/04/trnad-api-sunicena/
download the lecture, and hear from minute 41 what GM said:
GM: "The problem is that you heard a lot of things. But you havent had a good fortune yet to hear it consistently from one person who can explain it to you systematically and guide you in such a way that you can make tangible progress and sort all these things out, what are your priorities, what you should be doing..."
So, my understanding is that the solution is to be CONSISTENT even if you are not completely steady and intense.
c.) GM often compares krpa-siddhi to lottery instant gain, and I can say that through sadhana you are getting payed for all you have done so far week after week, and it gradualy acumulates to amount that krpa-siddhi can give you at once.
If it was no "tiny" krpa-sidhi given to you every day, you would not be able to practice up to now, and you would
loose interest in Krsna consciousness completely. However, you are still around. This is a sign that you have krpa,
and sidhi will come in due corse of time.
First you get mercy to practice sadhana, then you practice, then you get more mercy because you have practiced, etc.
This world Krsna can liberate at once, and finish with material anadi karma for everybody, bring us all in a second to spiritual world and then sadhana is not needed, but this our life and strugle to attain him that started with bhakti krpa from a devotee is a part of his lila, sristi lila.
Otherwise Krsna would be too cruel to put us in a position like - I know that so many of you are too weak to attain me through sadhana, but never mind - just strugle, I like watching you, and let this continue forever.
No, this is not like this. Krsna says many persons in the past have attained me. In the other place He says manusyanam sahasreshu that such person is very rare, but still many persons in the past attained him, and one day you will attain Him too. GM says first Gopis had to start to love Krsna and show their love by so many problems that they had to go through, and after that Krsna agreed to show His love for them.
So this is a sistem. Bhakti is about pleasing Krsna. Krsna can give you krpa-siddhi, and then what. Like this, you strugle through sadhana and give him pleasure that you want to attain him, although you are not qualified. He will be pleased, and will send you all necesary asistence to help you advance.
Gauravani Dasa - December 10, 2010 2:53 pm
Devyah-pati, I would not call it a "system" or a "formula." What you have described works for you but as GM mentioned when he was in NC, we have to be able to "take our own temperature" and make adjustments that are sincere, with good guidance. GM's life demonstrates this when he took shelter of BR Sridhar Maharaja--he didn't stick to the "system" that was prevalent at the time.
Also, I think it's healthy to go outside of our comfort zone for the purpose of strengthening our faith, which will fuel our sadhana.
I lived in a community where a "system" was emphasized. As a result the community was spiritually lifeless.
Devyah-pati Das SERBIA - December 10, 2010 8:30 pm
Devyah-pati, I would not call it a "system" or a "formula." What you have described works for you...
As I said I consider hearing GM lectures, phone calls, http://www.ustream.tv/channel/swami-darshan, etc, to be my most important sadhana, or system or formula as you say. I have no objection to use the word system since sadhana bhakti is a kind of system which is gradualy bringing you through the stage of knowledge to that of love, and beyond to self forgetfulness.
Why I choose hearing? Because it has the strongest backing in scripture, in GM lectures, SP and SSM lectures and writtings.
So, my point is that this hearing system is not working only for me, but for all. It is the most important.
Please inspire yourselves by beautiful and strong quotes of SP on importance of hearing:
Why they are going? They are busy in some other work? Eh? Ugra-karma. Without hearing, what he will do, nonsense? Sravanam kirtanam, this is our main business. Sravanam. If you don't hear, what you will do. You will do simply sense gratification. That's all. So this is difficulty, that we are not very much interested in hearing. And that is the main business. Our bhakti begins: sravanam kirtanam visnoh. We have to hear and we have to speak. But if we are not interested in hearing and speak, then it will be the same thakura-bari, simply formula. That's all. And gradually it will be stopped. Unless there is life of sravanam kirtanam, these big, big buildings, temples, will become burden. So if we are, if we want to create burden for future, then we may give up this hearing and chanting and sleep very nicely. It will be burden. Galagraha. Not Sri-vigraha, but galagraha. Galagraha. Sri-vigraha means worshipable Deity. So if we give up this sravanam kirtanam visnoh, then it will be thought that "Our guru maharaja has given a burden in the neck, galagraha." This is the danger. So we must be very much alert in sravanam kirtanam. Otherwise all this labor will be futile. This building will be only the nest, nest for the doves and the pigeons. That is the danger. That is being done.
(S.B. Lec., 1.8.19, Mayapura, 29th September, 1974)
The devotional service of the Lord consists of nine principles of service activities, and they are (1) hearing, (2) chanting, (3) remembering, (4) serving the lotus feet, (5) worshipping, (6) praying, (7) executing the orders, (8) fraternising, and (9) fully surrendering. Any one of them or all of them are equally competent to award the desired result, but they require to be practised persistently under the guidance of an expert devotee of the Lord. The first item, hearing, is the most important item of all, and therefore hearing of the Bhagavad-Gita and, later on, Srimad-Bhagavatam is essential for the serious candidate who wants to attain the stage of Bhismadeva at the end.
(S.B. 1.9.43)
The bhakti-yoga process is practised by the devotees in different methods like hearing, chanting, remembering, serving the lotus feet of the Lord, worshipping, praying, rendering service in love, becoming friendly, and offering all that one may possess. All nine methods are bona fide methods, and either all of them, some of them or even one of them can bring about the desired result for the sincere devotee. But out of all the nine different methods, the first one, namely hearing, is the most important function in the process of bhakti-yoga. Without hearing sufficiently and properly, no one can make any progress by any of the methods of practice.
(S.B. 2.2.36)
The beginning of Krsna consciousness and devotional service is hearing, in Sanskrit called sravanam. All people should be given the chance to come and join devotional parties so that they may hear. This hearing is very important for progressing in Krsna consciousness. When one links his ears to give aural reception to the transcendental vibrations, he can quickly become purified and cleansed in the heart. Lord Caitanya has affirmed that this hearing is very important. It cleanses the heart of the contaminated soul so that he becomes quickly qualified to enter into devotional service and understand Krsna consciousness.
(N.O.D. Ch 10)
Just like if you get a nice seed, you have to sow it and pour little water... Then it will grow. Similarly, anyone who by great fortune has come into Krsna consciousness, the seed of devotional service, he should water it. And what is the water? Sravana kirtana jale karaye secana. This is watering. This hearing and chanting about Krsna. This is watering. Don't be absent from the class. This hearing and chanting is watering the seed of devotional service. If you make it official and be absent from hearing... This is most important thing. Sravanam kirtanam Visnu. This is most important thing. To hear.
(B.G. Lecture Vol. 2. Lec 2.30 B.G., 31st August, 1973)
But for all devotional service, the main pillar is sravanam, hearing. Without hearing, other processes of devotional service will not be perfect. Therefore hearing is most important. Hearing, according to our Vaisnava philosophy, especially Lord Caitanya's, this hearing and chanting are two main pillars for devotional service.
(Lecture B.G. 3.18-30, Los Angeles 30th December, 1968)
One begins spiritual activities for advancement in Krsna consciousness by hearing. Hearing is the most important method for advancement, and one should be very eager to hear favourably about Krsna.
(T.L.C. p125)
One particular word is used herein for proper guidance. This word is susrusu. One must be anxious to hear this transcendental message. The desire to sincerely hear is the first qualification.
(S.B. 1.1.2)
By the hearing process, as mentioned herein before, this realization of the presence of the Lord in the temple is made possible. As such, the first process in the routine work of devotional service--hearing--is the essential point. Hearing by all classes of devotees from the authentic sources like Bhagavad-Gita and Srimad-Bhagavatam is essential.
(S.B. 2.3.21)
A sincere devotee must, therefore, be prepared to hear the Vedic literature like the Upanishads, Vedanta and other literature’s left by the previous authorities or Gosvamis, for the benefit of his progress. Without hearing such literature’s, one cannot make actual progress.
(S.B. 1.2.12,)
One should therefore begin yoga practice as directed in the last verse of the Sixth Chapter. Concentration of the mind upon Krsna the Supreme is made possible by prescribed devotional service in nine different forms, of which sravanam is the first and most important.
(B.G. 7.1)
Any of them, either these nine processes or eight or seven or six or five or four--take at least one and make your life successful. Everyone can. Caitanya Mahaprabhu therefore prescribed the most important one: sravanam, simply hear. That's all. That will make your life successful
( S.B.Lec. Bombay, 3.25.28)
These are the nine different processes of bhakti-yoga, of which the most important thing is sravanam, hearing.
(S.B. Lecture 1974)
Translation. It is only by devotional service, beginning with hearing, that one can approach the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is the only means to approach Him.
Purport. One can directly approach the Supreme Personality of Godhead simply by executing the nine kinds of devotional service, of which hearing about the Lord is the most important (sravanadi). Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu has very favorably stressed the importance of this process of hearing. According to His method, if people are simply given a chance to hear about Krsna, certainly they will gradually develop their dormant awareness or love of Godhead.
(C.C. Adi Lila.7.141)
If he has actually heard our words, then immediately he will agree. It is not very difficult thing. So hearing is so important thing. Sravanam. Sravanam means hearing.
(B.G. Lecture 7.1. San Diego, July 1st, 1972)
So this hearing... We are talking of the hearing. The hearing process is so important. All our, this institute, Krsna consciousness movement has spread because the students who have joined us, they have given aural reception, by hearing. The hearing, everything was changed within themselves and they have joined with full, whole-heartedness, and the... Going on. So hearing is so important.
(B.G. Lecture 7.1. San Diego, July 1st, 1972)
So hearing is very important. Therefore our bhakti process, bhakti-yoga process is hearing. The more you give aural reception to the transcendental message, more you become expert. You haven't got to become a Ph.D. or very learned fellow, or very scholar. No. Even a child, without any education, he can also become Krsna conscious simply by hearing.
(B.G. Lecture 7.1. San Diego, July 1st, 1972)
So the most important item is sravanam, or hearing. If you do not do anything else, if you simply sincerely hear about God, then gradually you will be God conscious.
(Initiation lecture. Caracas. Feb 22nd, 1975)
But by hearing only, they are now coming to God consciousness and devotees. Therefore this sravanam item, or hearing item, is very, very important.
(Initiation lecture. Caracas. Feb 22nd, 1975)
"Please come and sit down and hear about Krsna." Sravanam. If you simply continue, if you do not do anything, I guarantee that if you simply come here and hear about Krsna, you will be liberated. If you do not do anything, if you kindly come here and hear about Krsna. Here or anywhere, sravanam.
(B.G. Lec. 4.23 Bombay April 12, 1974)
We should follow the mahajanas and the sadhus, sastra. And they recommend... The most important process is sravanam. Srnvatam sva-kathah krsnah punya-sravana-kirtanah. If we don't hear about Krsna, then how we'll make advance? We have to hear. My Guru Maharaja was very kind upon me because I was very much interested to hear him. That you know. I hear him. I did not understand him, actually. In the beginning I could not understand him. He was speaking in so high philosophical way that it was not... Still, I wanted to hear him. That was my only qualification.
So the... It is the process. During lecture time, if we don't care to hear or we do other things or take rest, that is not very good sign. We should be very much careful. Then we shall remain mudha-drsa. Nato natyadharo yatha. We have taken the vow to see Krsna or to understand Krsna. We should be very, very serious and do the needful. Then our life will be successful.
(S.B. Lecture 1.8.19 Mayapura, September 29, 1974)
So, of course, reading or hearing. You may not have time to read, but time, you are hearing. We are publishing, we are publishing literature, books. I am trying to speak to you. That is also understanding, studying Krsna science. Rather, hearing is better reception. If you hear... That Vedas are therefore known as sruti. Sruti means it is received through hearing. Real process is hearing. And this age, Kali-yuga, people cannot study so much.
(Gen Lec 68’)
That is the difference, hearing from devotees, the sound vibration coming from the realized person. Reading the book is the same thing . . . tattva-darsana--hearing from one who has seen the truth. Reading or hearing from the realized person there is no difference, but hearing the sound vibration from the realized soul is still more effective, better.
(Punjabi premanand, S.P.L. 16th October, 1976)
Gauravani Dasa - December 10, 2010 9:17 pm
Devyah-pati, I agree that hearing is part of ajata-ruci-raganuga-bhakti: "It is a mixed form of raganuga and vaidhi-bhakti, in which one's motivation to engage in raganuga-bhakti is somewhat dependent on the logic and scriptural references in support of its value." (source) Since we do not have taste (ajata) we need to hear GM's explanation of why we should engage in bhakti.
Our goal is raganuga-bhakti. It is spontaneous, not dependent on logic and synonmous with Vraja-bhakti. I think it is important to recognize the difference between vaidhi-bhakti and raganuga-bhakti.
"The great authorities or mahajanas say ... unless you practice with constancy, or nistha, you will not be washed by the waves of prema. Nistha has been defined by Jiva Goswami as aviksepena satatyam, or steadfastness without distraction. The idea is that one should be fixed in a particular practice with unshakable faith." (source)
I agree with you but I am aware of the fact that devotees can take the idea of a "system" too far and end up committing vaisnava aparadha because of it. Yes, we must have nistha but in a flexible way, not a way in discourages spontaneity, which is our goal since we are on the raga-marga.
Devyah-pati Das SERBIA - December 11, 2010 8:12 am
I agree with you but I am aware of the fact that devotees can take the idea of a "system" too far and end up committing vaisnava aparadha because of it. Yes, we must have nistha but in a flexible way, not a way in discourages spontaneity, which is our goal since we are on the raga-marga.
Yes, Prabhu. What you say is true, and is an important point.
Yamuna Dasi - December 17, 2010 2:48 am
When I was asking myself through the years "why do I have to practice sadhana?" I was reaching different answers (all of them "pro" sadhana), here are some of them:
1. Because by practicing sadhana I can master my senses, my mind and shape better my character. (dry but true)
2. Because I like very much my Gurudeva and he had become what he is by practicing sadhana, so he is a living proof that this works. (practical and proven)
3. Because I would like my Gurudeva to like me and he likes when someone is sincerely trying to follow good sadhana. (sentimental but essential)
4. Because I want to catch Krishna's eye and sadhana seems to be a way this to happen. But nothing is guarnteed, in Shastra there are stories when some people were able to catch his eye by sadhana, but some were not. (sweet but uncertain)
At the current level of my realizations I see it like this: we don't obtain perfection through sadhana. Through sadhana we get guru kripa and catch Krishna's eye and he gives us kripa to reach perfection. Maybe... 
But still it's more comforting to at least do something for your dream than not doing anything about it!