Tattva-viveka
Better join, or?
Devyah-pati Das SERBIA - December 16, 2010 8:15 am
It is said that SP had no idea to establish temples
as it have happened with devotees living in them,
but to preach to the people, so that they can practice
Krsna consciousness in their lives (at home).
(I do not remember where I read that or heard that,
but this is the information that came to me.)
I accepted idea of bhakti from devotees from Serbia
who at that time did not know anything less to tell
me but to prevent me from going to university
(because it is all useless and maya), and that it would
be the best to join as a full time temple devotee.
Since at that time I was already 2 years practicing
sincerely, I agreed and joined. For a few years I was
doing sankirtan, and then later I was singing in
bhajan band on public programs.
Later I fell down, still keeping some connection
with devotees here and there. At some point I
got the mercy to practice again but this time at home.
My oppinion is that if it were no my joining
as a full time devotee 20 years ago, then I would have
no sufficient enthusiasm, understanding and sukrti to
continue with bhakti now.
Is this true, or?
If it so happened that I went to the university,
I believe that my idea of practicing Krsna consciousness
would water down, and perish away. In contact with
materialistic man and women I would lose sight, and
very fast the waves of maya would cover me, by getting
married, job, children, social contacts... Later, as a devotee,
I anyway fell down (because of my attachments or offences
- but I tried not to commit them and I believe I was sucessful).
Krsna says that there is no loss, so this was my guide idea.
If someone asks me - What was better for me out of the two
(to join or to continue with my life and add Krsna), the answer
I realy do not know.
Most probably, the best was that I stay home, finish university,
marry (since I am not monastic or brahmacary type), and to
practice as much as possible. In this way I would not create
havoc in my parents minds - the only son going away from
home to the sect, just like that, I suffered also mentaly from
this, I left beautiful nice girlfriend, just like that, fanaticaly ...
Or this was needed for me like Arjuna first had to detach from
dearest persons, Bishma and Drona.
Still Arjuna realy became detached and uprooted the problem
once forever (while I could not kill everybody around 
), and
I again became attached when I fell down "Back to the Parents",
wife, etc (instead of Back to Godhead ), like I never became
detached before, - this is discouraging to me, and leads us to
the other bold marked text of mine which is:
I don't know about the past. Now is the most important that
I continue with, as GM says Gaudiya Vaisnavism, but:
My present problem is that I have a certain form of mental
barrier in a form of "not engaging myself too much" into bhakti
practice, because of previous experience of being too much
enthusiastic and then bluped down, and understanding better
my actual very low position in relation to such elevated thing as
Krsna bhakti, what to speak of bhakti, in relation of even lowest
stages of bhakti.
How to look on all that?
Yamuna Dasi - December 17, 2010 12:17 am
My dear Cousin,
The question you raise is very interesting but I don't think it has a definite answer. Life is so diverse and that's a quality, not a disadvantage. And the path of every soul towards God is also a unique one.
I will tell you another life story of other devotee, my dear Godbrother.
He was a student in the University first year medicine when he met my Gurudeva, Bhakti Abhay Narayan Maharaj. And he desired to devote himself completely by leaving the University and joining the ashram in Hungary. He asked Gurudev if to do it. And no matter that there was a small devotional community living and serving full time in Hungary, still Gurudev advised him to better finish his University. But my Godbrother insisted that he prefers to join full time and he actually hates medicine and would never be a doctor because he finds it dirty and awful. And I was wondering how and why would Gurudev advise person who fells like this about medicine to graduate for a doctor! That would be a true disaster (I thought). And anyway full surrender is always better and Srila Prabhupad was encouraging it. So I could not understand why Gurudev would advise this young man (19 years old) to graduate something he hates and does not want to work anyway, instead of joining the ashtam. Still my Godbrother insisted to join the ashram and Gurudev agreed. He stayed there for half an year and suddenly left... and just didn't return to the ashram no matter that he had a round tour ticket. He loved Gurudev so much and I was not able to understand what is happening and why.
Shortly after I met him in town wearing Gurudeva's sweater, trousers and even shoes (Gurudev was sometimes making such gifts to devotees) but... embracing a girl, holding a cigarette in one hand and a beer in the other. I am not joking and not exaggerating! So as you would say "he blooped!"
One year later our Gurudeva left this world in a car accident. I was wondering should I call this "ex-godbrother" of mine and tell him or rather not? Because during this one year he never came or show any interest. Still after 2 weeks I decided to call him and tell him. When I called him he said "I knew it will happen like this... I was dreaming this during that half year when I lived in the ashram..." I asked him to meet and talk and he came. So I could ask him the questions which answers I could not find. I asked him doesn't he love Gurudev any more? What happened to him to turn to 180 degrees so suddenly and why? And the answers he gave me were so surprising for me... He told me that of course he loves Gurudev but that he could not return to the ashram. And that when he left with round tour ticket to Bulgaria he was really planning to go back in a week or two... but he could not. And that somehow Gurudev must have known that it will happen like this because before leaving to Bulgaria Gurudev embraced him and told him: No matter what will happen, just know that everything will be all right and don't be afraid!" This was their last meeting...
But no matter that my Godbrother didn't return to the ashram, no matter he started eating meat, drinking alcohol , smoking and having affairs with girls, being deeply disappointed by himself but not being able to stop the desires bursting into his heart, still he remembered the advice of Gurudev to graduate medicine and he did it! And he started a very good private business in pharmaceutical field, not becoming a doctor (from what I was so afraid) but still making good use of the medicine diploma for which Gurudev insisted. He got married.
And five years later he came back. He was able to preach and "make a devotee" a very intelligent young man, a big businessman, and that man "made" many devotees. I heard that my Godbrother was keeping for 3 years brahmachria inside marriage having a young wife and I was giving him an angry speach in private that he is doing wrong and this is not the dharma of a grihastha. I think I was even sharp enough to tell him that he was not brahmachari when he was supposed to be and now when he should be a good grihastha once again he is doing what is not his duty... same old story! But later on when once I asked that businessman devote, who was "converted" by him HOW could he inspire him to become a devotee (because for me this was a complete mystery!) he told me: "You know, he shared with me as a friend that he is keeping brahmacharia in marriage for 3 years and I was so impressed by this! I thought that this is something REAL!"
Can you imagine my surprise! What I was seeing as a "misunderstood and misplaced renounciation" was one of the core emotional reasons why that man had become a devotee! And through him after so many others became devotees!
From years this Godbrother of mine is somehow keeping distance from the mission, but is always helping with some big donations and maybe twice per year is coming to the Sunday programs and giving some of the most interesting and sincere lectures I have ever heard. And devotees love him and his lectures!
Life is so multidimensional and so diverse. Things are not black and white. Maybe the best we can do is to admire with full heart this incredible multilevel diversity and be with open hearts and minds when trying to understand reality... and the hearts of others who are also trying to do the same. And if while doing this we can feel some more love, then the things are going in a good direction and no reason for fear...
We never know after a "bloop" what deeper realizations can come to us. Or just vice versa - after many years of artificial following without feeling and understanding, what a big BLOOP can come to us. It's a question of TASTE finally, of rasa. If through all that happens to us we are not able to refine our taste, then we have not achieved the goal and maybe it could be better to dive deeply into material existence in search for taste and find out by personal experience that there is no real taste in running after the senses alone. And this would be real personal experience and realization, not just quoting books. Because finally it's all about rasa... and rasa is a very personal thing.
Who can say what is better - to try to rush towards the highest peak through the dangerous vertical rocks, or to try to walk slowly but surely "the safe way". Krishna seems to be able to admire both "the suicide squad" and the "turtles" How? Because he measures the sincerity of the feeling. It's the feeling "I want Krishna ASAP!" which drives "the suicide squad" and it's the feeling "I want Krishna for sure! No risk!" which drives the "turtles". Who can say which of these two is more charming for Krishna? Who can say who is dearer to Krishna - the fly on the deity or the pujary doing his best to chase it out?
In Zeno's paradoxes (Achilles and the turtle) the turtle reached before the arrow! And who says that Krishna cares who would arrive first in the context of eternity... These are all our measurements, not his. True sign for developing real taste for rasa is when we start caring more for Krishna's taste and feelings rather than measuring everything with ours...
I will quote your logo:
"Life is a journey. Let faith be your guide."
As per your question: "How to look on all that?"
I would say: Look on it as a wonderful journey towards your love and take advantage of your good guide.
Devyah-pati Das SERBIA - December 17, 2010 5:48 am
My dear Cousin,
The question you raise is very interesting but I don't think it has a definite answer. Life is so diverse and that's a quality, not a disadvantage. And the path of every soul towards God is also a unique one.
I will tell you another life story of other devotee, my dear Godbrother.
He was a student in the University first year medicine when he met my Gurudeva, Bhakti Abhay Narayan Maharaj. And he desired to devote himself completely by leaving the University and joining the ashram in Hungary. He asked Gurudev if to do it. And no matter that there was a small devotional community living and serving full time in Hungary, still Gurudev advised him to better finish his University. But my Godbrother insisted that he prefers to join full time and he actually hates medicine and would never be a doctor because he finds it dirty and awful. And I was wondering how and why would Gurudev advise person who fells like this about medicine to graduate for a doctor! That would be a true disaster (I thought). And anyway full surrender is always better and Srila Prabhupad was encouraging it. So I could not understand why Gurudev would advise this young man (19 years old) to graduate something he hates and does not want to work anyway, instead of joining the ashtam. Still my Godbrother insisted to join the ashram and Gurudev agreed. He stayed there for half an year and suddenly left... and just didn't return to the ashram no matter that he had a round tour ticket. He loved Gurudev so much and I was not able to understand what is happening and why.
Shortly after I met him in town wearing Gurudeva's sweater, trousers and even shoes (Gurudev was sometimes making such gifts to devotees) but... embracing a girl, holding a cigarette in one hand and a beer in the other. I am not joking and not exaggerating!
One year later our Gurudeva left this world in a car accident. I was wondering should I call this "ex-godbrother" of mine and tell him or rather not? Because during this one year he never came or show any interest. Still after 2 weeks I decided to call him and tell him. When I called him he said "I knew it will happen like this... I was dreaming this during that half year when I lived in the ashram..." I asked him to meet and talk and he came. So I could ask him the questions which answers I could not find. I asked him doesn't he love Gurudev any more? What happened to him to turn to 180 degrees so suddenly and why? And the answers he gave me were so surprising for me... He told me that of course he loves Gurudev but that he could not return to the ashram. And that when he left with round tour ticket to Bulgaria he was really planning to go back in a week or two... but he could not. And that somehow Gurudev must have known that it will happen like this because before leaving to Bulgaria Gurudev embraced him and told him: No matter what will happen, just know that everything will be all right and don't be afraid!" This was their last meeting...
But no matter that my Godbrother didn't return to the ashram, no matter he started eating meat, drinking alcohol , smoking and having affairs with girls, being deeply disappointed by himself but not being able to stop the desires bursting into his heart, still he remembered the advice of Gurudev to graduate medicine and he did it! And he started a very good private business in pharmaceutical field, not becoming a doctor (from what I was so afraid) but still making good use of the medicine diploma for which Gurudev insisted. He got married.
And five years later he came back. He was able to preach and "make a devotee" a very intelligent young man, a big businessman, and that man "made" many devotees. I heard that my Godbrother was keeping for 3 years brahmachria inside marriage having a young wife and I was giving him an angry speach in private that he is doing wrong and this is not the dharma of a grihastha. I think I was even sharp enough to tell him that he was not brahmachari when he was supposed to be and now when he should be a good grihastha once again he is doing what is not his duty... same old story! But later on when once I asked that businessman devote, who was "converted" by him HOW could he inspire him to become a devotee (because for me this was a complete mystery!) he told me: "You know, he shared with me as a friend that he is keeping brahmacharia in marriage for 3 years and I was so impressed by this! I thought that this is something REAL!"
Can you imagine my surprise! What I was seeing as a "misunderstood and misplaced renounciation" was one of the core emotional reasons why that man had become a devotee! And through him after so many others became devotees!
From years this Godbrother of mine is somehow keeping distance from the mission, but is always helping with some big donations and maybe twice per year is coming to the Sunday programs and giving some of the most interesting and sincere lectures I have ever heard. And devotees love him and his lectures!
Life is so multidimensional and so diverse. Things are not black and white. Maybe the best we can do is to admire with full heart this incredible multilevel diversity and be with open hearts and minds when trying to understand reality... and the hearts of others who are also trying to do the same. And if while doing this we can feel some more love, then the things are going in a good direction and no reason for fear...
We never know after a "bloop" what deeper realizations can come to us. Or just vice versa - after many years of artificial following without feeling and understanding, what a big BLOOP can come to us. It's a question of TASTE finally, of rasa. If through all that happens to us we are not able to refine our taste, then we have not achieved the goal and maybe it could be better to dive deeply into material existence in search for taste and find out by personal experience that there is no real taste in running after the senses alone. And this would be real personal experience and realization, not just quoting books. Because finally it's all about rasa... and rasa is a very personal thing.
Who can say what is better - to try to rush towards the highest peak through the dangerous vertical rocks, or to try to walk slowly but surely "the safe way". Krishna seems to be able to admire both "the suicide squad" and the "turtles"
In Zeno's paradoxes (Achilles and the turtle) the turtle reached before the arrow! And who says that Krishna cares who would arrive first in the context of eternity... These are all our measurements, not his. True sign for developing real taste for rasa is when we start caring more for Krishna's taste and feelings rather than measuring everything with ours...
I will quote your logo:
"Life is a journey. Let faith be your guide."
As per your question: "How to look on all that?"
I would say: Look on it as a wonderful journey towards your love and take advantage of your good guide.
Yamuna, thank you very much, for this nice, long reply with many good points.
I very much appreciate the time you dedicated for answering this question of mine.
Yamuna Dasi - December 17, 2010 9:44 am
Yamuna, thank you very much, for this nice, long reply with many good points.
I very much appreciate the time you dedicated for answering this question of mine.
No problem, it was a nice journey for me as well.
To remember how I was trying to measure my Godbrother through all these years and how all my measurements have turned out to be non-valid. One of the meanings of "maya" is "to measure".
I also remember now a nice story related exactly with your question. But I only heard this story, I don't know from where it is. So maybe somebody more shastric than me can help you find the source. Obviously your question "what is better, the difficult shortcut or the long surrounding way" has been bothering the minds and hearts of many generations of devotees so the Shastra gave an answer in the following story:
Once Narada Muni on his way to Krishna met one shoemaker who was happily repairing old shoes under a tree. After that shoemaker heard from Narada Muni that he is on his way to Krishna, he asked the sage to ask Krishna if possible after how many lifetimes he will receive moksha and go back to him. Narada muni promised he'll ask.
Then on his way to Krishna the muni met a yogi, from many years in deep renounciation and meditation. And the yogi asked him the same, to inquire from Krishna when will he reach moksha and go back to him. Again Narada muni promised he'll ask.
On his was back he first passed through the yogi and told him: Krishna said you will achieve liberation and go back to him after 3 lifetimes. The yogi jumped furiously from his meditation and started cursing: How can he be so unfair to me! I have been doing so much renounciation and meditating deeply for so many years and WHAT? After 3 lifetimes!? Blah! Not fair!
Then Narada muni passed through the shoemaker who was again happily repairing old shoes under the same tree and told him: Krishna said that you will receive moksha and will go back to him after as many lifetimes as many leaves are there on the tree under which you are sitting. And that tree was covered by countless leaves. But for Narada muni's great surprise the shoemaker jumped and started dancing in extacy around the tree jumping up and down in uncontrolled joy and shouting: How merciful the lord of my heart is! He will liberate me and will let me go back to him so shortly and I am such an insignificant man full of faults! So merciful he is...
And by the speed of his extatic dance a storm came and blew away all the leaves from that tree.
What we might think to be "the shortcut" can come out to be a long way and vice versa.
Regarding this story I was thinking that on his way towards Krishna Narada muni first met the shoemaker and then the yogi, which shows that the yogi was somehow closer to Krishna. But still "the turtle" reached before the arrow, just like in Zeno's paradox. The shoemaker was still holding his "control" and his "measurements", while the shoemaker completely surrendered to the divine will and that came out to be the real shortcut.
Achintya! Inconceivable as usually we would translate it. But as Shridhara Mharaj explains "achintya" includes also other meaning, "by his ever changing will alone, not every time the same, not following any rule"
We do follow a system, we do follow rules, but still we know that in the end there is "no rule!", his sweet will alone. That is the final goal of our journey, that "place" or "level of consciousness" where there is nothing else than his sweet will alone.
But what is the entrance gate for that "place"? Our ability not just to accept everything as "his will", but rather to see everything as "his sweet will". Only acceptance of the divine will is not enough, it’s just like a locked gate. Vision for the sweetness of the divine will is the key for that gate. Acceptance is tattva, vision for the sweetness is rasa. First is the gate and second is the key. There is a process, sadhana, first we search for the gate and then we search for the key.
As the Sufis say: God cannot be found by search, but mystically he reveals himself only to those who are searching for him.
--------------------
Your question is also answered very nicely in the Bible, just the same way, with the same idea of final divine mercy, as it is in our Scriptures. Look how incredibly comparable in the essence this story is with the story about Narada muni:
But many that are first shall be last; and the last first. (Mark 31.10)
1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
(Matthew 20th chapter)
Guru-nistha Das - December 18, 2010 3:36 am
I would say it's better to just join if you're young and you don't have family obligations like children etc.
Even if you're not naturally a monk type, I still think it's so worth it. The kind of training you get is valuable.
Of course my angle is skewed in the sense that I've had the amazing luck to join a very healthy and spiritually enlivening ashrama, whereas certain ashramas may actually mess you up. But what can you do, life's a gamble. Personally I'm all for risk taking.
Devyah-pati Das SERBIA - December 20, 2010 8:17 am
No problem, it was a nice journey for me as well.To remember how I was trying to measure my Godbrother through all these years and how all my measurements have turned out to be non-valid. One of the meanings of "maya" is "to measure".
I also remember now a nice story related exactly with your question. But I only heard this story, I don't know from where it is. So maybe somebody more shastric than me can help you find the source. Obviously your question "what is better, the difficult shortcut or the long surrounding way" has been bothering the minds and hearts of many generations of devotees so the Shastra gave an answer in the following story:
Once Narada Muni on his way to Krishna met one shoemaker who was happily repairing old shoes under a tree. After that shoemaker heard from Narada Muni that he is on his way to Krishna, he asked the sage to ask Krishna if possible after how many lifetimes he will receive moksha and go back to him. Narada muni promised he'll ask.
Then on his way to Krishna the muni met a yogi, from many years in deep renounciation and meditation. And the yogi asked him the same, to inquire from Krishna when will he reach moksha and go back to him. Again Narada muni promised he'll ask.
On his was back he first passed through the yogi and told him: Krishna said you will achieve liberation and go back to him after 3 lifetimes. The yogi jumped furiously from his meditation and started cursing: How can he be so unfair to me! I have been doing so much renounciation and meditating deeply for so many years and WHAT? After 3 lifetimes!? Blah! Not fair!
Then Narada muni passed through the shoemaker who was again happily repairing old shoes under the same tree and told him: Krishna said that you will receive moksha and will go back to him after as many lifetimes as many leaves are there on the tree under which you are sitting. And that tree was covered by countless leaves. But for Narada muni's great surprise the shoemaker jumped and started dancing in extacy around the tree jumping up and down in uncontrolled joy and shouting: How merciful the lord of my heart is! He will liberate me and will let me go back to him so shortly and I am such an insignificant man full of faults! So merciful he is...
And by the speed of his extatic dance a storm came and blew away all the leaves from that tree.
What we might think to be "the shortcut" can come out to be a long way and vice versa.
Regarding this story I was thinking that on his way towards Krishna Narada muni first met the shoemaker and then the yogi, which shows that the yogi was somehow closer to Krishna. But still "the turtle" reached before the arrow, just like in Zeno's paradox. The shoemaker was still holding his "control" and his "measurements", while the shoemaker completely surrendered to the divine will and that came out to be the real shortcut.
Achintya! Inconceivable as usually we would translate it. But as Shridhara Mharaj explains "achintya" includes also other meaning, "by his ever changing will alone, not every time the same, not following any rule"
We do follow a system, we do follow rules, but still we know that in the end there is "no rule!", his sweet will alone. That is the final goal of our journey, that "place" or "level of consciousness" where there is nothing else than his sweet will alone.
But what is the entrance gate for that "place"? Our ability not just to accept everything as "his will", but rather to see everything as "his sweet will". Only acceptance of the divine will is not enough, it’s just like a locked gate. Vision for the sweetness of the divine will is the key for that gate. Acceptance is tattva, vision for the sweetness is rasa. First is the gate and second is the key. There is a process, sadhana, first we search for the gate and then we search for the key.
As the Sufis say: God cannot be found by search, but mystically he reveals himself only to those who are searching for him.
--------------------
Your question is also answered very nicely in the Bible, just the same way, with the same idea of final divine mercy, as it is in our Scriptures. Look how incredibly comparable in the essence this story is with the story about Narada muni:
But many that are first shall be last; and the last first. (Mark 31.10)
1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
(Matthew 20th chapter)
I again thank you very much, for your answer.
Let me offer my most humble obeisances to your noble guru, Srila Bhakti Abhay Narayan Maharaj.
Devyah-pati Das SERBIA - December 20, 2010 8:24 am
I would say it's better to just join if you're young and you don't have family obligations like children etc.Even if you're not naturally a monk type, I still think it's so worth it. The kind of training you get is valuable.
Of course my angle is skewed in the sense that I've had the amazing luck to join a very healthy and spiritually enlivening ashrama, whereas certain ashramas may actually mess you up. But what can you do, life's a gamble. Personally I'm all for risk taking.
In the time when I was joining (1989), still there was this sankirtan spirit, so I went out for book distribution
in Italy, Sweden, Serbia, etc. So, I also had luck to feel the enlivening spirit of this sort. This was then, and now
let me continue also somehow enlivened - slowly but surely .
Yamuna Dasi - December 20, 2010 8:27 pm
Thank you!
Recently I am thinking if it's possible for me to visit Audarya or Madhuvan for a week or two. A kind of short time joining to see Maharaj again and to come to know some of my cousins.
Is this possible? Have you been in Audarya?
I was going for summers to the devotional farm in Hungary which my Gurudeva started and I have great memories from these summers with my godbrothers and godsisters. It's an unforgettable experience to be for some time in an ashram again and close to guru. I don't know if Audaria or Madhuvan offer such opportunity for devotees to render some service and spend a week or two there.
Devyah-pati Das SERBIA - December 21, 2010 8:31 am
Thank you!
Recently I am thinking if it's possible for me to visit Audarya or Madhuvan for a week or two. A kind of short time joining to see Maharaj again and to come to know some of my cousins.
Is this possible? Have you been in Audarya?
I was going for summers to the devotional farm in Hungary which my Gurudeva started and I have great memories from these summers with my godbrothers and godsisters. It's an unforgettable experience to be for some time in an ashram again and close to guru. I don't know if Audaria or Madhuvan offer such opportunity for devotees to render some service and spend a week or two there.
Up to now I never went to Audarya or Madhuvan. The plan is to go there in the future definitely.
I would choose Audarya because I would like to relax as much as possible , and Madhuvan
since it is not finished and is developing, is much more austere place (and I don't like austere vacation .
I am sure that it is possible to go there, and as I understood GM is all the time inviting devotees
to come. It is good to come to the place for some festival, so that you can be there when GM is there,
and meet many devotees, or you can come just to stay at some place when GM is there and only few
devotees are then there. This second I think that is better, because it would be more peaceful atmosphere,
since on festivals is crowd.
You should write a question to the devotees from Audarya to ask how these visits are working.
I do not have money to go even to farm in Hungary that you have mentioned (which is only 100km from)
my town Novi Sad. So, it will take me many years to collect money to be ready for my "Audarya Project" ,
and since I am married I will go there with my wife, so it is double laxmi that we need, which is very hard
when I look from this perspective, but if it is to happen Krsna will make an arrangement.
Atmananda Dasa - December 21, 2010 9:35 pm
Prabhu I am sure that you will make it some day. We'll be happy to meet you then.
Its an interesting question that you have posed. I have also been contemplating that sometimes. My conclusion is that if I could have changed anything it would only be that I would have come directly to the shelter of Swami Tripurari from the beginning. But the most important part is that I am today here with the opportunity for this good company. Thanks for your post about sadhana on the other thread.
Devyah-pati Das SERBIA - December 22, 2010 11:00 am
Prabhu I am sure that you will make it some day. We'll be happy to meet you then.Its an interesting question that you have posed. I have also been contemplating that sometimes. My conclusion is that if I could have changed anything it would only be that I would have come directly to the shelter of Swami Tripurari from the beginning. But the most important part is that I am today here with the opportunity for this good company. Thanks for your post about sadhana on the other thread.
Thank you for the blessing for being able to come to Audarya. This is most important
part in my endevour, because if devotees want me to come, Krsna will help me to come.
Yes, I regret too that I did not come to GM directly and to give to him all my utsaha years,
instead that I spent them in ISKCON, but that was my path. At least I better apreciate GM,
and have deeper understanding of how and what is he doing, and I can compare it with
ISKCON and other groups, with some experience on my part, and not on the theoretical
basis only.
I am glad that you noticed my posting about sadhana. If it touched you with even one point
it means that I was rightly inspired by Krsna while writting it to you.
Madan Gopal Das - December 22, 2010 3:42 pm
Yes, I regret too that I did not come to GM directly and to give to him all my utsaha years,instead that I spent them in ISKCON, but that was my path. At least I better apreciate GM,
and have deeper understanding of how and what is he doing, and I can compare it with
ISKCON and other groups, with some experience on my part, and not on the theoretical
basis only.
I think that for those of us that joined iskcon, contributed enthusiastically for a few years and then became disillusioned with it, that this really was our path that should not be lamented. As GM says, "love moves in a crooked way" - somehow or other we have come to his shelter, how we got here doesn't matter so much, or at least we should see it for what it is, serving as a bridge to our current situation. I often think that people who have made some progress in bhakti over lifetimes may come to iskcon as the quick "jump start" to their previously acquired level of advancement and then once iskcon has facilitated that "bridging" it is time to move on. I feel like I made quick, almost easy progress in iskcon and then my disillusionment about certain things came naturally, as if I required from previous experience a deeper process. Since being in touch with GM I see that my practice is much more steady and fixed, but also slow and requires deeper work. Like I have arrived at my place on the map where I need to make progress from...
Citta Hari Dasa - December 22, 2010 5:06 pm
Up to now I never went to Audarya or Madhuvan. The plan is to go there in the future definitely.
I would choose Audarya because I would like to relax as much as possible
since it is not finished and is developing, is much more austere place (and I don't like austere vacation
If your idea of relaxation is digging holes in the hot sun then come on down!
Nitaisundara Das - December 23, 2010 3:05 am
Yamuna, it is certainly possible to visit Audarya for a week or a few! Devotees do this regularly. Keep in touch and plans can be arranged
Audarya and Madhuvan are like Mecca for the Muslims, everyone should get there at least once in a lifetime.
Devyah-pati Das SERBIA - December 23, 2010 11:26 am
I think that for those of us that joined iskcon, contributed enthusiastically for a few years and then became disillusioned with it, that this really was our path that should not be lamented. As GM says, "love moves in a crooked way" - somehow or other we have come to his shelter, how we got here doesn't matter so much, or at least we should see it for what it is, serving as a bridge to our current situation. I often think that people who have made some progress in bhakti over lifetimes may come to iskcon as the quick "jump start" to their previously acquired level of advancement and then once iskcon has facilitated that "bridging" it is time to move on. I feel like I made quick, almost easy progress in iskcon and then my disillusionment about certain things came naturally, as if I required from previous experience a deeper process. Since being in touch with GM I see that my practice is much more steady and fixed, but also slow and requires deeper work. Like I have arrived at my place on the map where I need to make progress from...
This is very interesting point of view. I can say that after reading it, I accepted it from now on to be my point of view regarding this issue.
Thank you for your reply.
Devyah-pati Das SERBIA - December 23, 2010 11:35 am
If your idea of relaxation is digging holes in the hot sun then come on down!
My idea is that since I can come for one week, I think that it is better for me
to listen around what devotees have to say to me, who are living in Audarya,
to look around, to get impressions that will last for a lifetime, to remember
the place where I was, to brethe the air, to feel the atmosphere,...
This I feel to be more important for me to do in one week then to do any
specific service in such a short period of time. In this week I would like to
associate with Godbrothers as much as their service allows them to speak
with me. I would help them with their service if I am able while we are talking,
but hearing from them live, would be the most important to me. Nothing else.
Do you agree, or?
Please agree.
Madan Gopal Das - December 23, 2010 2:31 pm
I agree that it is important to take in the atmosphere at Audarya or Madhuvan. But you'll see that the atmosphere is pervaded with service. It is very centered in sadhana also, where you can participate in the morning, noon and evening programs, maybe some recreational time here and there... but these places and people are alive with service every second. GM keeps everyone engaged just according to their needs, so don't worry about it, just get there and see how that friendly environment embraces you.
And the monks are happy to converse, though it may be over digging holes and cleaning up cow dung!
Devyah-pati Das SERBIA - December 23, 2010 4:18 pm
I agree that it is important to take in the atmosphere at Audarya or Madhuvan. But you'll see that the atmosphere is pervaded with service. It is very centered in sadhana also, where you can participate in the morning, noon and evening programs, maybe some recreational time here and there... but these places and people are alive with service every second. GM keeps everyone engaged just according to their needs, so don't worry about it, just get there and see how that friendly environment embraces you.
And the monks are happy to converse, though it may be over digging holes and cleaning up cow dung!
I didn't know that "digging process" is so essential for advancement...
In that case I have to bring with me one first class shovel, and a pair of sunglasses .
Braja-sundari Dasi - December 24, 2010 1:57 am
Since you`ve already promised to help with digging, why not come to Costa Rica? Our soil is softer then in Audarya and we will gladly accept a new shovel. And after work you can use your sunglasses at beautiful ocean beach
Devyah-pati Das SERBIA - December 24, 2010 7:54 am
Since you`ve already promised to help with digging, why not come to Costa Rica?
In order that somebody does not understand me wrong (as if I am advocating
something against "digging" and other hard work construction activities while
developing a new devotional center), let me first offer my most humble obeisances
to all of you devotees, engaged like in the Towards Self-Sufficiency video,
for all your efforts, sweat and labour, that is worth of utmost respect.
Still, this discussion brings us to the doorstep of another conversation room,
in which we could speak a little bit about being wise regarding the pace that
we want to have in our way Back to Godhead.
I got the feeling (hopefully wrong one) that some devotees on this forum,
in order to leave impression of being fixed-up, not in the enjoying spirit, etc,
think that the best way to do that is to attack with all weapons my publicly
expressed "relaxed approach".
It is also sometimes difficult to discuss on the forums the topics without
knowing about each other what service we were doing before, generaly
what have we done so far, and what are our realizations up to now.
In my early years I was very "fired-up". Since the authorities told me
that most important thing is book distribution, I started to distribute books...
In three years I distributed over 10.000 books. Simultaneously I was
singing in the bhajan band on over 100 public programs. During all that
time I was taking bath with cold water, was eating mostly once a day,
washed my clothes by hands, etc...
I regularly attended lectures by others and also gave lectures myself.
I was reading as much as possible. I tryed to avoid offenses to the
devotees, and I believe I was succesfull.
ALL OF THAT, was not enough, to save me from my fall down.
After three years of such PACE (plus two years before that as "fixed-up"
aspirant devotee), I fell down as a victim of my lusty desires and left
the temple, company and contact with devotees more or less completely,
and in this way stopped with my spiritual life all together.
To be continued...
Any questions or comments, so far?
Yamuna Dasi - December 24, 2010 9:53 am
Were you happy while doing all these services? Did you have amongst the devotees your best friends?
Maybe I was very lucky that I didn't start my devotional life in ISKCON where "NO sense gratification!" is sometimes seen equal to "Don't be happy!". In our group we were happy being together and doing some services together. It was an adventure and there were good feelings and friendship amongst us. It was not considered "sense gratification" to go on excursion amongst nature or to go to the seaside. Or to go to a movie. It was also not considered something bad to be well dressed or having brand and fashion clothes. Or for the girls wearing jewels. My godbrother about who I was telling you before was joking that "we the devotees have to be modern!" And he was seriously brand and modern! But since he was loving Gurudev and Krishna we were happy to see him well dressed and branded and for us this was not "maya" but good taste and sweet aspect of his character which was making us laugh many times.
We were just normal young people who added Krishna to their lives in a positive way because we were very charmed by our Gurudeva. We were completely in love with him and what he was preaching to us about Krishna and bhakti and the renounciation was rather not exactly renounciation but naturally losing taste for some wrong things which were step-by-step positively substituted.
Even in the ashram in Hungary where we were going often, there was a kind of rule - nobody was waking you up for the morning program at 4 or 5 or even 7 am, if you specially don't ask somebody to wake you up. And if you don't wake up early after nobody was looking at you badly as a "sense gratifier". Rather when we were tired we were sleeping, but we WANTED to wake up early in order not to miss the interesting morning program, even if later in the afternoon being tired as city kids from the unusual farm work and unusual early waking up, we had to hide somewhere in the garden or in the forest with our sleeping bags and take a nap. And when it was happening the Hungarian devotees who were continuing their work and services to pass close to our sleeping camp, they were trying to step tip-toe and whispering to the other: "hush! keep silence pls! The Bulgarian yatra is sleeping!" :)
So we were treated like pets, with so much love and affection! And little by little these "pets" were so much in love with their Master, that they were ready to leave some bad habits and to follow more strictly but still with pleasure. Thus we were fired up, but never burnt out. This was the biggest art of Gurudeva, how "to cook us" slowly and with patience so that none of us to wish to jump out from the hot pot.
We were happy to let Gurudeva cultivate us and shape us as he likes because we loved him and trusted him and his taste.
Yamuna Dasi - December 24, 2010 9:57 am
Since you`ve already promised to help with digging, why not come to Costa Rica?
I don't know how good I am with digging, but I am a good cook! (and I am humble of course!)
Do you have some service for me in Costa Rica? I also know Spanish (don't know if it's necessary there).
Does Maharaj come to Madhuvan for some time?
Braja-sundari Dasi - December 24, 2010 2:09 pm
I don't know how good I am with digging, but I am a good cook!Do you have some service for me in Costa Rica? I also know Spanish (don't know if it's necessary there).
Does Maharaj come to Madhuvan for some time?
Yes, Guru Maharaj spends few months a year here. There is alway some seva for a cook!
Braja-sundari Dasi - December 24, 2010 2:12 pm
Davya-pati I hope you don`t think I was trying to attack you! It was just my way to say that Madhuvan may not be as austere as you think....
Yamuna Dasi - December 24, 2010 4:41 pm
Good!
How many devotees live in Madhuvan? And what is usually the seva there?
Braja-sundari Dasi - December 25, 2010 1:54 am
Good!
How many devotees live in Madhuvan? And what is usually the seva there?
There is 4 people living here permanently and also some came with Guru Maharaj. So at the moement there is 8 people here. And seva is unlimited
Yamuna Dasi - December 25, 2010 9:51 am
Great!
When is Maharaj coming there and how long will he stay?
I am from EC, do I need visa for Costa Rica? And what is the way to come to Madhuvan? I have to fly to where and then what transport to use?
And of course may I come?
I'll be so happy to see Maharaj again and to come to know my cousins!
Devyah-pati Das SERBIA - December 25, 2010 10:37 am
Were you happy while doing all these services? Did you have amongst the devotees your best friends?
Maybe I was very lucky that I didn't start my devotional life in ISKCON where "NO sense gratification!" is sometimes seen equal to "Don't be happy!". In our group we were happy being together and doing some services together. It was an adventure and there were good feelings and friendship amongst us. It was not considered "sense gratification" to go on excursion amongst nature or to go to the seaside. Or to go to a movie. It was also not considered something bad to be well dressed or having brand and fashion clothes. Or for the girls wearing jewels. My godbrother about who I was telling you before was joking that "we the devotees have to be modern!" And he was seriously brand and modern!
We were just normal young people who added Krishna to their lives in a positive way because we were very charmed by our Gurudeva. We were completely in love with him and what he was preaching to us about Krishna and bhakti and the renounciation was rather not exactly renounciation but naturally losing taste for some wrong things which were step-by-step positively substituted.
Even in the ashram in Hungary where we were going often, there was a kind of rule - nobody was waking you up for the morning program at 4 or 5 or even 7 am, if you specially don't ask somebody to wake you up. And if you don't wake up early after nobody was looking at you badly as a "sense gratifier". Rather when we were tired we were sleeping, but we WANTED to wake up early in order not to miss the interesting morning program, even if later in the afternoon being tired as city kids from the unusual farm work and unusual early waking up, we had to hide somewhere in the garden or in the forest with our sleeping bags and take a nap.
So we were treated like pets, with so much love and affection! And little by little these "pets" were so much in love with their Master, that they were ready to leave some bad habits and to follow more strictly but still with pleasure. Thus we were fired up, but never burnt out. This was the biggest art of Gurudeva, how "to cook us" slowly and with patience so that none of us to wish to jump out from the hot pot.
We were happy to let Gurudeva cultivate us and shape us as he likes because we loved him and trusted him and his taste.
First of all let me thank you Yamuna for your nice replies on this thread that I started. They are to me very constructive, inspiering and usefull. This what you wrote in this posting is beautiful, and your Gurudeva is in my oppinion one of the greatest vaisnavas that is SP disciple (besides our GM, B.G. Narasingha maharaj, Paramadvaiti Maharaj and few others).
As per your questions, I would say like this:
a.) Yes, I was happy while doing these services. Still, I had two major mistakes that I made while practicing spiritual life in those
years.
- One is that I wanted to by engaging so much in the service, force Krsna somehow to reveal Himself to me, and in this way that
I become pure devotee in a short period of time.
- The other is that by doing so much service I practically (when I look it from this perspective) wanted to run from myself, my
impurities, to hide myself. When some devotee asked me if I had some problem with regulative principles, some doubt, etc, I
readily answered - "Oh, ho! How you can even think about it! I am completely fixed-up!" or as GM says - pure devotee
disease.
b.) I had friends amongst devotees. My problem, if it can be said so, was that I was more or less moving constantly, from
ashram to ashram, from country to country, so I had no opportunity to get friends for longer period. If you add to this,
such mentality above mentioned (I am pure), which many others had, then, real friendship was completely not possible.
This is like in materialistic society, where everybody pretends to be happy, and in our (my) case pretends to be pure and free
from material desires, impurities, problems, etc.
This brings us to (in my oppinion) one of the problems of this forum, and in general when asking GM questions on lectures, phone-calls, etc.
Majority of the questions asked, and topics discussed on this forum, are high topics, Krsna lila, how this is in the lila, how that is in the lila etc... in this book this goswami said that and in this book it is said like this - So, GM can you clarify us a little bit how are we to understand this. These questions are all right and of course needed, but often are just jnana questions of curiosity of intelect, without real interest that this helps one in his "next step" advancement, or as SP liked to say - Why don't you go there (to the spiritual sky) and find out yourself.
This is like the people do not like to expose their shortcomings and doubts.
It seems that such kind of openhearted questions are much more ready to ask devotees who or:
- blooped for some time
- are by nature not afraid to say that they have a problem or a doubt
- are some psihology knowing persons that know how to open themselves when needed.
Importance of such honest questions and discussions can be seen in that the persons who were honest in asking (posting question) are often praised and encouraged for being honest. Such postings and discussions that later come from asking such questions, have much-much more views by members and guests.
Or, in the words of GM (when he says something like) - Why do you come to the guru if you are perfect, have no problems and doubts? Only if you admit that you have all these unwanted things you will be by the mercy of guru and vaisnavas, and by following the orders of the guru, freed from these unwanted things, get the faith and continue stronger in spiritual practice.
If you go to the doctor, you cannot be examinated if you do not take your clothes off, and expose the disease completely.
Devyah-pati Das SERBIA - December 25, 2010 10:45 am
Davya-pati I hope you don`t think I was trying to attack you!
That's good. Cause I'm quite fragile these days.
Braja-sundari Dasi - December 25, 2010 1:44 pm
Why do you come to the guru if you are perfect, have no problems and doubts? Only if you admit that you have all these unwanted things you will be by the mercy of guru and vaisnavas, and by following the orders of the guru, freed from these unwanted things, get the faith and continue stronger in spiritual practice.
If you go to the doctor, you cannot be examinated if you do not take your clothes off, and expose the disease completely.
I might be wrong but I think that for really serious personal problems with practice approching Guru Maharaj directly would be more effective then asking a question on the call. You don`t have to reveal your mind to just everyone around. Usually it is only the doctor who can see you naked, not other patients.
Otherwise I have heard many questions on the calls that were personal questions but not to the extreme. I don`t think you can judge people`s intentions saying they ask about lilas just to satisfy their intelect. We have to know something about the one we want to love and clarify our doubts in this regard. People may be not sincere in revealing their anarthas as well...
Devyah-pati Das SERBIA - December 25, 2010 3:17 pm
I might be wrong but I think that for really serious personal problems with practice approching Guru Maharaj directly would be more effective then asking a question on the call. You don`t have to reveal your mind to just everyone around. Usually it is only the doctor who can see you naked, not other patients.Otherwise I have heard many questions on the calls that were personal questions but not to the extreme. I don`t think you can judge people`s intentions saying they ask about lilas just to satisfy their intelect. We have to know something about the one we want to love and clarify our doubts in this regard. People may be not sincere in revealing their anarthas as well...
I do not advocate "revealing mind to just everyone". Still, there is guru(s) and vaisnavas.
Sadhu sanga is not only association with guru. My point was not specifically connected to
the forum and phone-call questions only. Generaly, devotees are speaking higher then
their realisations realy are, and doing this in the association of their guru and also in the
assembly of vaisnavas, by this trying to hide their own weak faith or spiritual standing.
Ultimately, it is a question of refine judgement, what to say publicaly and what only to the guru,
and on that I agree with you.
Still, I think that devotees often do not reveal their mind to the guru either, thinking, if I would
now say to the guru how stupid thing I have done or I am doing some unwanted things...
that guru will be angry, dissapointed, so better that I don't speak about my problems.
Regarding your second paragraph I would like to say that I did not use word always
"just to satisfy their intelect". I say often.
I am interested to better understand what you mean when you say:
"People may be not sincere in revealing their anarthas as well..."
Yamuna Dasi - December 25, 2010 10:50 pm
It's interesting what you said about the different kinds of questions which people ask - those about lila and those about practical problems in spiritual life. I like the lila questions sector! If one meditates on lila he/she naturally gets involved there. And sometimes the best and most natural way to lose our anarthas is to be absorbed by the lila. Fighting directly maya is not really possible. There is one verse in Gita where Krishna says: daivi hiesha guna mai" - this divine energy of mine cannot be beaten. It can only be overcome by surrender to Krishna.
Once my Gurudeva was explaining us this verse giving the example of the big elephant who is pulled away when trying to walk upwards the stream of a big river, while a small fish can easily go upstream. He asked us why? And then he explained it - because the elephant is fighting with the river, while the small fish is surrendering to the water.
So for me those who ask questions about lila are from the "surrender" squad Somehow I do believe that as more we keep our focus on the lila, as more our anarthas will fade away.
Of course practical questions are also necessary, but we don't have to focus completely on our anarthas because then the object of our meditation will be anarthas and there is nothing sweet about this. Add to this that it also doesn't work and you will also become a fan of the "lila questions sector". It only looks abstract, finally it's very practical!
By the way Merry Christmas to everybody who celebrates Christmas!
Braja-sundari Dasi - December 26, 2010 1:44 am
I am interested to better understand what you mean when you say:"People may be not sincere in revealing their anarthas as well..."
I meant that one cannot tell intention behind the question. Someone may ask about high topics and be really interested in them and someone may ask for help but do it only to bring attention to himself and not to change his life.
Devyah-pati Das SERBIA - December 26, 2010 11:47 am
I meant that one cannot tell intention behind the question. Someone may ask about high topics and be really interested in them and someone may ask for help but do it only to bring attention to himself and not to change his life.
All right. I understand your point.
Devyah-pati Das SERBIA - December 26, 2010 12:30 pm
It's interesting what you said about the different kinds of questions which people ask - those about lila and those about practical problems in spiritual life. I like the lila questions sector!
Once my Gurudeva was explaining us this verse giving the example of the big elephant who is pulled away when trying to walk upwards the stream of a big river, while a small fish can easily go upstream. He asked us why? And then he explained it - because the elephant is fighting with the river, while the small fish is surrendering to the water.
So for me those who ask questions about lila are from the "surrender" squad
Of course practical questions are also necessary, but we don't have to focus completely on our anarthas because then the object of our meditation will be anarthas and there is nothing sweet about this. Add to this that it also doesn't work and you will also become a fan of the "lila questions sector". It only looks abstract, finally it's very practical!
By the way Merry Christmas to everybody who celebrates Christmas!
Yamuna, I have already heard such approach before, but have forgotten it in the meanwhile.
I feel it is good, and I will try to apply it in my life.
As per asking questions, my point in general, is actually simple:
It would be good that all the questions that are not considered too intimate,
should be asked in the assembly of the devotees, so that all can benefit from
the answer that GM is giving.
Otherwise:
a. Not everybody will be benefited from hearing the answer,
b. The answer will not be recorded (unless in written form) and in this way will be lost forever,
(but devotees lose e-mails and letters also),
c. GM will have to tell many times such answer to many devotees instead of saying it once and for all.
If you think more profoundly about this subject there are not so many too intimate questions
in a life of a sadhaka which should be said only to GM.
Also, even personal questions can be formulated in such a way that they do not expose the
intimate situation of a devotee, so the questions can be asked in a form like:
"What a person should do if he finds himself in such and such situation...",
"How should one respond to such and such challenge, difficulty, etc".
In this way he will get his answer for himself and others will know how to deal with such situation
if they encounter similar problem in their spiritual life.
Yamuna Dasi - December 26, 2010 3:08 pm
Yes, I agree with what you wrote.
Did you ask Tripurari Maharaj what does he think about your question? I mean the one for this topic "better join or?".
Because here some of us may share with you personal opinion but most important is the one of your Gurudeva. Because it will be specific for yourself and will be most helpful.
Devyah-pati Das SERBIA - December 26, 2010 8:26 pm
Did you ask Tripurari Maharaj what does he think about your question? I mean the one for this topic "better join or?".Because here some of us may share with you personal opinion but most important is the one of your Gurudeva. Because it will be specific for yourself and will be most helpful.
I didn't ask him in any personal e-mail about this topic. As you could see
I am trying to as much as possible ask my questions on the forum, for
my personal benefit, and for the benefit of others.
I am also trying not to write him e-mails to bother him with such questions
which he can answer on the forum, sometimes only with one sentence, or
one word, like - Yes., or No.
This is the example of this from few months before:
Devyah-pati das:
"I have materialy soft heart. I cry easily when I see or hear
something that, according to material estimation is sad.
On the other side I also cry sometimes in connection with
Krsna consciousness. Some time ago I came to the
conclusion that when I am crying over something connected
with Krsna it is only sentimental material crying, and most
probably I should surpress it, since I am not pure in heart
and this crying has no real spiritual value.
Sridhar Maharaj said - Cry because the tears are not comming.
In this context, I think - Just let me cry if I feel crying for
Krsna since it is good even if it is sentimental.
All in all, since I am not pure, should I cry for Krsna at this stage
anyway, or not, before real natural crying for Krsna appear in the
heart?"
Srila Tripurari Maharaj: "Yes, cry."
In this way I am trying to spare his time for more imoprtant work that he is doing.
If the very urgent need and question for me arises I will of course write
to him, and maby even phone call him, but in my life it is at present not
necesary.
In a personal e-mail to me, two years ago, amongst other things GM told me:
"Please join our discussions on Tattva-viveka. You can find good association there."
So I am present on the forum since then and I am trying to be active as much
as I can.
Regarding asking him personaly, I am trying to do as he said and to ask all
of you devotees first, by generaly asking the oppinion of the devotees, to make
a discussion as GM says.
Sometimes he also answers the question, and sometimes not.
Sometimes he immediately answers it, as soon as I post my answer, even before
anybody else says anything about the question or topic I started.
From all this I concluded that GM by some divine inspiration replies to all the
questions that require his personal involvement in answering or clarification.
Since forum is for discussion, I respect the oppinions of other devotees as well.
Of course, the most dear and most important thing for me is when GM says his
definitive reply, and this I am assimilating as if Krsna personaly told me this.
Yamuna Dasi - December 27, 2010 12:36 am
I see.
I just worried is it good and right for me to give opinion on a question which is rather a personal and individual question to be asked from disciple to his guru.
Especially when it's about a specific person and in this moment and no general rule can be applied. It depends on many things if it's better for you to join an ashram or if you are married person just to serve guru and Krishna living in your family and taking good care of it.
I suppose that for a married person his dharma is to live with his family and be responsible for the choice he made.
I don't know if in Audarya or Madhuvan married devotees can join for full time service. Is it so?
Devyah-pati Das SERBIA - December 27, 2010 7:36 am
This topic "Better join, or?" I started with the question(s) what was better for me to do some 20 years ago. This is also
the question for anybody who has some choice today to make, regarding joining full time or how to organize his spiritual
life at home.
In big society like Iskcon, even today they are not in general very much paying attention regarding what consequences
for a person will be if he joins the temple just like that. Usually devotees are encouraged to join full time. Only if you say
that you cannot because you have important responsabilities outside, they say ok, or if you are some successful businessman
they encourage to remain so, in order that their yatra get good laxmi from you.
I just worried is it good and right for me to give opinion on a question which is rather a personal and individual question to be asked from disciple to his guru.Especially when it's about a specific person and in this moment and no general rule can be applied. It depends on many things if it's better for you to join an ashram or if you are married person just to serve guru and Krishna living in your family and taking good care of it.
I suppose that for a married person his dharma is to live with his family and be responsible for the choice he made.
If it is possible it is always the best that devotee ask his own guru, but usualy in the beginning of the practice, one does not have a guru, and this can be a problem. One cannot run around to find one as soon as he can in order to decide weather he should join or not, so he is left on the mercy of "spiritual destiny, sukrti..." to speak about this with devotees (senior or junior) around him at that time. Then after considering arguments for Yes or No, one will do as he likes.
Ultimately even if a guru says something regarding what you should do (join the temple or not at this moment), but you get some divine inspiration that contradicts his idea, you can come to him and explain him your point of view, and if it is well grounded, guru will change his view.
The question - should you join or not is in spiritual consideration relative question. So guru can (after getting new informations
on the subject) change completely his point of view regarding should you join the temple full time or not.
You cannot suggest him to change absolute things in our philosophy, but relative consideration is subject to change
from time to time.
In this manner I would say that one should not be too afraid to say once personal oppinion to the devotee after understanding his situation. You can say - this is my oppinion, you should ask other senior devotees the best, and if you in the meanwhile get your own guru the best is to ask him.
I don't know if in Audarya or Madhuvan married devotees can join for full time service. Is it so?
I have some informations on that, but it is the best that someone who knows the comprehansive
view of GM regarding this, say in greater detail regarding this issue. (I am also interested to know.)
Madan Gopal Das - December 27, 2010 3:43 pm
I think GM will happily engage anyone in full-time service at any of his asrama's. Men, women, monastics, householders... he'll engage whatever we can give. There is a couple with him at Madhuvan right now and they have a living situation at both places.
Guru-nistha Das - December 28, 2010 6:41 pm
Dear Devya-Pati,
it's nice that you are doing your share in keeping the discussion going here!
I would like to comment on one point you made regarding "lila-topics".
Roughly speaking, humans seem to be divided into three main groups in terms of their natural approach to life: the physical, the emotional and the intellectual. The first and second groups seem to be vastly larger than the last group. So just as someone may seem here to only try to satisfy their intellect, in the same way emotionally driven people try to satisfy their emotional needs by their questions. The motivation is the same though: to find satisfaction. This is in no way a criticism of you, but I have come to realize from your posts that you are certainly in the emotional category, so your questions may be motivated by satisfying your emotions just as much as for example Gaura Vijaya's questions are geared towards throwing cookies at his intellect. And it's all good if it serves one to be able to practice more.
Our sanga has been blessed with more intellectually minded devotees than any other sanga I have seen, and I think that is a very great thing that should be cultivated (as long as it is conducive to practice). That is one of Guru Maharaja's main contributions to to the Gaudiya world; his intellectual understanding and presentation of the Gaudiya siddhanta. And naturally he wants us to carry that on. There is a great need for understanding the higher topics correctly but it's not for everyone. If it doesn't grasp your attention, no problem. But I would advise to be careful about putting it down either.
Thanks for bringing up this important topic and keep posting!
Caitanya Rupini - December 28, 2010 6:45 pm
About four weeks ago I received the answer of Tripurari Maharaj on his view of Madhuvan.
This was a personal letter but I think not confidential
Maharaj meant Madhuvan for monastic and retired devotee who decided to live in vanaprastha aśram.
Mainly it is a dham/monastery where the devotees should spiritually grow up and worship the Deity.
Because Madhuvan is meant to be economically independent, there is a need to doing seva in gosala, garden, fields or building a temple/ aśrams as well.
Maharaj would to create a Vrindavan experience in this place - for visitors (and of course for residents).
The residents of Madhuvan will be hosting a devotee pilgrims.
Possibly a small preaching program for locals will be develop.
In Madhuvan there is no option to buy a land, in each individual case Maharaj might consider life leasing land to build a small house and the land will be return to the monastery after the life lease.
So, this is not a "farm community" which we knows from Iskcon.
This is not place for having children, doing businness, build a great houses, earn money and so forth.
But if somone wants to live there and not wants to be vanaprastha or retired, there is a land nearby available.
You can buy it, build a house and join the project in this way.
The costs of building and buying a land are comparable with European.
So this is a view of Swami regarding Madhuvan
Devyah-pati Das SERBIA - December 28, 2010 8:01 pm
Dear Devya-Pati,it's nice that you are doing your share in keeping the discussion going here!
Thank you Prabhu for this encouragement. It means a lot!
Roughly speaking, humans seem to be divided into three main groups in terms of their natural approach to life: the physical, the emotional and the intellectual. The first and second groups seem to be vastly larger than the last group. So just as someone may seem here to only try to satisfy their intellect, in the same way emotionally driven people try to satisfy their emotional needs by their questions. The motivation is the same though: to find satisfaction. This is in no way a criticism of you, but I have come to realize from your posts that you are certainly in the emotional category, so your questions may be motivated by satisfying your emotions...
Yes, I also think like you - three groups. I agree with you that I am in the emotional category. I am actualy emotionlaly very instable person, but as gunas are always threefold, I have a lot interest in body and intelect as well. Still I think that intelectual level is too high for me, to be in it the majority of time.
Maby this my emotional approach has some advantage as well. As GM says - ultimately bhakti is all about feeling.
I hope that my emotion will be purified with transcendental knowledge so that I will be able to one day come to the
level of pure emotion for Krsna.
Our sanga has been blessed with more intellectually minded devotees than any other sanga I have seen, and I think that is a very great thing that should be cultivated (as long as it is conducive to practice). That is one of Guru Maharaja's main contributions to to the Gaudiya world; his intellectual understanding and presentation of the Gaudiya siddhanta. And naturally he wants us to carry that on. There is a great need for understanding the higher topics correctly but it's not for everyone. If it doesn't grasp your attention, no problem. But I would advise to be careful about putting it down either.
Yes, I noticed that many of the disciples and folowers of GM are very philosophicaly minded persons.
It seems that I found myself in an unusual environment in a sense that I never found so many
philosophicaly minded persons in one place (so I became a little bit suspicious) - sorry for that.
Yes, I understand that GM main contribution is his intellectual understanding and presentation of the Gaudiya siddhanta.
I would be happy to understand higher topics, but they are still above my head or better to say my heart.
I am trying to grasp them by continiously listening GM lectures regardless how much I can understand,
and gradualy I am getting understanding, and it is very encouraging.
I am not putting down intelectual approach, and I will not.
Thank you once again for encouraging me to keep posting. Actually I am very happy when some topics
that I have started become interesting for the devotees. This already happened many times in those
past two years, so if I can get some mercy for starting such topics I am very happy for that - or, to say,
let me start an interesting topic, and then let philosopicaly minded, intelectual persons on this forum
catch on it and speak their visions and oppinions on the subject. Let me thank you all for your mercy.
Tharshan - January 2, 2011 4:27 am
I would say it's better to just join if you're young and you don't have family obligations like children etc.Even if you're not naturally a monk type, I still think it's so worth it. The kind of training you get is valuable.
Of course my angle is skewed in the sense that I've had the amazing luck to join a very healthy and spiritually enlivening ashrama, whereas certain ashramas may actually mess you up. But what can you do, life's a gamble. Personally I'm all for risk taking.
Dandavats Guru-nistha,
I was wondering if you can help me understand what risks you're referring to that someone might be taking in joining?
Thank you
Guru-nistha Das - January 2, 2011 4:49 am
Devyah-pati, thanks for the nice reply.
In regards to transforming worldly emotions to devotional emotions, I was just reading from the Bhagavatam (I think the 3rd Canto), two verses that were saying how if we are attached to a sadhu just like we are attached to other people materially, we will go beyond birth and death and will eventually be completely purified. I'm sure it doesn't mean it will just happen overnight but the shakti of the sadhu is able to transform that material affection into an offerable emotion. That's pretty cool, if I might say!
Vijaya Govinda,
I was talking about dysfunctional ashramas and how you have to take the risk that you might end up in one when you join a mission. There's a risk of feeling regret afterwards for lost years or being abused and damaged psychologically.
THe way I think about it though is that everything in life is a gamble anyway. Is your wife/husband going to cheat on you, are your kids going to turn into teenage monsters, is your dream house going to be foreclosed etc etc. So it's better to gamble for something that you know will have lasting benefit, no matter what the immediate outcome. Nehabhikrama-naso 'sti... (Bg. 2.40)
Tharshan - January 3, 2011 4:09 am
Devyah-pati, thanks for the nice reply.In regards to transforming worldly emotions to devotional emotions, I was just reading from the Bhagavatam (I think the 3rd Canto), two verses that were saying how if we are attached to a sadhu just like we are attached to other people materially, we will go beyond birth and death and will eventually be completely purified. I'm sure it doesn't mean it will just happen overnight but the shakti of the sadhu is able to transform that material affection into an offerable emotion. That's pretty cool, if I might say!
Vijaya Govinda,
I was talking about dysfunctional ashramas and how you have to take the risk that you might end up in one when you join a mission. There's a risk of feeling regret afterwards for lost years or being abused and damaged psychologically.
THe way I think about it though is that everything in life is a gamble anyway. Is your wife/husband going to cheat on you, are your kids going to turn into teenage monsters, is your dream house going to be foreclosed etc etc. So it's better to gamble for something that you know will have lasting benefit, no matter what the immediate outcome. Nehabhikrama-naso 'sti... (Bg. 2.40)
Thanks. I am glad to be in this association!
Devyah-pati Das SERBIA - January 4, 2011 10:54 am
In regards to transforming worldly emotions to devotional emotions, I was just reading from the Bhagavatam (I think the 3rd Canto), two verses that were saying how if we are attached to a sadhu just like we are attached to other people materially, we will go beyond birth and death and will eventually be completely purified. I'm sure it doesn't mean it will just happen overnight but the shakti of the sadhu is able to transform that material affection into an offerable emotion. That's pretty cool, if I might say!
Yes, something like that, is my only hope. I feel the need to hear voice of GM every day.
Otherwise the day is lost, empty. Sometimes, since my wife has free weekend from work
and I like to listen GM when I am alone (and we live in one room studio appartment)
to have complete concentration with no distraction whatsoever, it so happens that I do
not listen GM for one day or so. This just accumulates stronger taste, and since phone
calls are on Sunday, as soon as I download the file on Monday I start to listen to it,
and it feels like eating after fasting .
I am not philosophicaly minded person, but I like to listen what GM speaks, and I feel
how it nurishes my soul. I just listen, and somehow it all fits ih the heart, making this
giant puzzle of devotion to Krsna more and more complete for my soul.
Nehabhikrama-naso 'sti... (Bg. 2.40)
Jay! It is good feeling to read this verse from time to time. Devotional service ki-jay!!
Yamuna Dasi - January 16, 2011 9:38 am
Where are the Sunday calls uploaded? I would also like to download and hear some.
Please give me a link.
Devyah-pati Das SERBIA - January 16, 2011 10:49 am
Where are the Sunday calls uploaded? I would also like to download and hear some.Please give me a link.
Haribol, Yamuna!
Here is the link:
http://www.freeconferencecall.com/itunes/i...05690800:606050