Tattva-viveka
B. V. Narayana Maharaja
Babhru Das - December 29, 2010 12:30 am
Today, Sri Krsna Navami Tithi, the 29th of December, on the most auspicious day of the appearance of nitylila pravista om vishnupada Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Vaman Gosvami Maharaja, our most beloved Gurudeva, Sri Srimad Bhaktivedanta Narayan Gosvami Maharaja has entered the eternal pastimes of Sri Sri Radha and Krsna at 03.00 AM in Sri Jagannath Ksetra Dham, the transcendental residence of Sri Jagannath Deva, Sri Baladeva and Srimati Subhadra.
We are making arrangements to bring Srila Gurudeva’s transcendental body to Sri Navadvip Dham and place it in Samadhi.
(His passing apparently occurred three hours ago.)
Gopakumara Das - December 29, 2010 5:54 am
Sending all of my thoughts and affection to those devotees who have taken shelter of his grace Srila Narayana Maharaja and are left without his siksa and unarguable inspiration. My best wishes to his disciples and to the greater Gaudiya community in this transitional time.
Bhrigu - December 29, 2010 10:17 am
I also offer my condolences to all of his followers. But does anyone know why they will place him in Samadhi in Navadvip instead of Vrindavan?
Citta Hari Dasa - December 29, 2010 5:01 pm
I also offer my condolences to all of his followers. But does anyone know why they will place him in Samadhi in Navadvip instead of Vrindavan?
I was wondering that myself.
Madan Gopal Das - December 31, 2010 4:57 pm
I think the samadhi is in Navadvipa because his Guru Maharaj and Vamana Maharaj are there.
Interesting from Bhagavat Maharaj:
Srila Gurudeva has asked that the sannyasis form a committee and appoint a chairman. That is what he has asked for. He has not asked for anyone or two or three to be Acharya. Just a board and a chairman. He has told us that any of the sannyasis can initiate but the details of how that will play out in our world wide sangha is not really clear to us yet so we are discussing how to manage this in a co-operative manner. We will finalize everything at Goura Purnima time. Until then I do not think there will be any initiations.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - December 31, 2010 5:05 pm
I think the samadhi is in Navadvipa because his Guru Maharaj and Vamana Maharaj are there.
Interesting from Bhagavat Maharaj:
More like ISKCON GBC then.
Well tested pragmatic model with less risk. 
Madan Gopal Das - January 6, 2011 2:41 pm
Madan Gopal Das - January 6, 2011 3:27 pm
and this has some more detail than the previous: http://backtobhakti.com/2011/01/the-plan-f...i-yoga-society/
Gopakumara Das - January 6, 2011 4:12 pm
and this has some more detail than the previous: http://backtobhakti.com/2011/01/the-plan-f...i-yoga-society/
Since it appears that all sannyasi disciples will initiate if they are madhyama adhikaris at least, where does that place advanced female disciples such as Syamarani? might she be the first initiating female western devotee? Does she qualify for this position? She does have a following.
Nitaisundara Das - January 6, 2011 5:56 pm
From the two articles it seems that all sannyasis should initiate and only madhyama devotees should initiate, thus instantly elevating all sannyasis to level of madhyama. Here we go...
Seems like trouble to me. I think the madhyama part should be given precedence.
Madan Gopal Das - January 6, 2011 7:54 pm
From the two articles it seems that all sannyasis should initiate and only madhyama devotees should initiate, thus instantly elevating all sannyasis to level of madhyama. Here we go...
Seems like trouble to me. I think the madhyama part should be given precedence.
I definitely got that there was an emphasis on sannyasis, but appreciated the madhyama part. I traveled in a van on sankirtan with one devotee who eventually went to NM and took sannyasa just a few years ago. Don't know what I think about him initiating disciples, but... Also knew the 10 year old kid of a Prabhupada disciple who is now probably early 20's and took sannyasa recently. Now that will make you feel old! There are some cool things I like about their mission, but I guess it is mainly in contrast to Iskcon. For example sannyasa. It is a breath of fresh air to see a lot of sannyasis in their mission, and young ones too! Iskcon tightened up so much and corporatized everything with all their waiting lists and stuff. Its just so uninspiring. I've heard from a couple of their sannyasis, and they are cool, nice devotees. And there isn't this gigantic aura of reverence around them, like they've achieved the final stage before godhood, they are just simple monks, and some are pretty darn learned too! So, I'm waiting for our sannyasis - Vrndaranya, Gurunistha... Vamsi But all in good time...
It's kinda cool too, how it is not so complicated (at least for now) about figuring out who's a madhyama, etc. I think Iskcon in this situation would have to formula-ize it, have a "madhyama training seminar", with eight sessions and only those who attend 7 of the 8 sessions while standing on their heads memorizing a certain amount of slokas are qualified to initiate. Oh yeah, and you also must have male genitalia. :Big Grin:
Anyway, though it is unfortunate, it is interesting to watch the growth of a mission after the departure of the acarya, and to consider these different models of succession... Must be that sociology part of me. Fascinating stuff.
Gopakumara Das - January 6, 2011 8:49 pm
I agree Madan Gopal bhai... to assess for madhyama is going to be a nightmare...and without their sadhu, who will do it? Will the assessor be madhyama or uttama? Sannyas is not synonymous with madhyama or uttama as history has told us. I don't think we need more sanyassis...I just think we need more madhyama's and uttamas... more bhava and prema bhaktas. They can be in any 'ashram' or have any genitalia... just be in touch with the other side, please.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - January 6, 2011 11:17 pm
I definitely got that there was an emphasis on sannyasis, but appreciated the madhyama part. I traveled in a van on sankirtan with one devotee who eventually went to NM and took sannyasa just a few years ago. Don't know what I think about him initiating disciples, but... Also knew the 10 year old kid of a Prabhupada disciple who is now probably early 20's and took sannyasa recently. Now that will make you feel old! There are some cool things I like about their mission, but I guess it is mainly in contrast to Iskcon. For example sannyasa. It is a breath of fresh air to see a lot of sannyasis in their mission, and young ones too! Iskcon tightened up so much and corporatized everything with all their waiting lists and stuff. Its just so uninspiring. I've heard from a couple of their sannyasis, and they are cool, nice devotees. And there isn't this gigantic aura of reverence around them, like they've achieved the final stage before godhood, they are just simple monks, and some are pretty darn learned too! So, I'm waiting for our sannyasis - Vrndaranya, Gurunistha... VamsiIt's kinda cool too, how it is not so complicated (at least for now) about figuring out who's a madhyama, etc. I think Iskcon in this situation would have to formula-ize it, have a "madhyama training seminar", with eight sessions and only those who attend 7 of the 8 sessions while standing on their heads memorizing a certain amount of slokas are qualified to initiate. Oh yeah, and you also must have male genitalia. :Big Grin:
Anyway, though it is unfortunate, it is interesting to watch the growth of a mission after the departure of the acarya, and to consider these different models of succession... Must be that sociology part of me. Fascinating stuff.
Really, is it a breath of fresh air to see a lot of sanyasis? Let us see how long the fresh air will last.
Babhru Das - January 7, 2011 12:27 am
What's important, as Gopa says, is that they be in touch with the other side. The essence of sannyasa, it seems, is dedication to, as Srila Sridhara Maaraja says, deep engagement in responsible service. We can live like that in any ashram, but sannyasa can be particularly conducive to such a life.
I know quite a few of those sannyasis. Some are old friends, and some I've met and talked with when I was living on the Big Island. There are some who I'd prefer not to get to know better, but most are, as Madan says, living as simple monks, travelling and sharing Krishna consciousness according to their ability. One thing that put me off about much of their preaching was that it seemed very "Srila Gurudeva" centric, but that may have been a feature of the festivals they had on Hawaii, which were essentially week-long Vyasa-puja festivals. In any event, a good many of the preachers seem very serious, but I don't know if I would recommend any one of them as gurus.
Babhru Das - January 7, 2011 1:58 am
Well, let's face it: my relationship with these devotees, especially the older ones, some of whom I've known for 40 years or so, is different from yours. And my relationship with the younger ones is different, too. Many of them were my students when they were kids, and their parents are old friends of mine. In fact, my relationship with the entire sanga is different. I'm sure you feel your experience of the group is very broad, but I lived among them for several years on the Big Island. I know many who are very serious sadhakas, and some who have as much trouble with their practice as anyone in ISKCON, many who sincerely appreciate devotees outside their group, and many who are just fanatics. And they stopped trying to convert me more than 10 years ago, so we generally talk about more than just the infallibility of their gurudeva. I've seen plenty of narrow, fanatical "preaching" from many of them, but I've also seen some creative, progressive work among them. And, as much as I'm a target for some of the fanatics in that group, I can appreciate whatever bhakti is growing among them without feeling I have to denigrate the rest or assert my own superiority.
Madan Gopal Das - January 7, 2011 2:23 am
Really, is it a breath of fresh air to see a lot of sanyasis? Let us see how long the fresh air will last.
Yes, I like sannyasis! Especially new blood, bold, enthusiastic in surrender and simple at heart. I know that it is risky, but with the blessing of a potent sadhu, who can harness, channel and sustain their spirit of renunciation it is really a boost to the greater community of devotees. Again, a lot of this is contrast to Iskcon, where I experienced the bureaucracy of the process and the cynicism towards so much sannyasa failure that people have thought it should be banned or something. Also in Iskcon sannyasa has historically been merged with the function of guru. If you were a sannyasi, you were a guru. Now that will be the case in NM's mission it sounds like, but I liked what I saw in his mission previously where you had sannyasi preachers, simple, all dressing similarly and pretty low key in regards to their own isvara-bhava. It may have been overboard in promoting their guru as Babhru suggested, but at least it wasn't in the direction of self-promotion. I like sannyasis, and I'm all for good ones who inspire.
Babhru Das - January 7, 2011 2:29 am
Whoa--it looks as though Gaura-vijaya deleted a comment, which makes my 8:58 posting look just nuts.
Madan Gopal Das - January 7, 2011 2:39 am
another point related to something in Babhru's last post... I also appreciate these sannyasis when their Gurudeva is present, you feel a little more like you can relate to them, like they are practicing sadhakas like you, though in a renunciate asrama. It is inspiring to be around people who are not much different than yourself, but may have taken a different path in social circumstance. I met one sannyasi in NM's mission who I liked very much, was down to earth, simple, but seemed quite learned and I could relate to him. He was probably around my age. And I just thought he was cool! and that it was neat to see someone take that lifestyle and run with it, but not in a power-grabbing way, or a way to move up the corporo-spiritual hierarchy. It wasn't this overdone awe and reverence for the sannyasi/guru that I was used to, but at the same time I felt a natural deference to a sannyasi even though for all intents and purposes I was a peer. Anyway, I didn't get to know him too well, but I just had that impression and it made an impact on me.
Madan Gopal Das - January 7, 2011 2:42 am
huh, yeah I wasn't quite sure what post was directing your thoughts Babhru, but I kinda absorbed what you were saying anyway.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - January 7, 2011 3:31 pm
Yes, I like sannyasis! Especially new blood, bold, enthusiastic in surrender and simple at heart. I know that it is risky, but with the blessing of a potent sadhu, who can harness, channel and sustain their spirit of renunciation it is really a boost to the greater community of devotees. Again, a lot of this is contrast to Iskcon, where I experienced the bureaucracy of the process and the cynicism towards so much sannyasa failure that people have thought it should be banned or something. Also in Iskcon sannyasa has historically been merged with the function of guru. If you were a sannyasi, you were a guru. Now that will be the case in NM's mission it sounds like, but I liked what I saw in his mission previously where you had sannyasi preachers, simple, all dressing similarly and pretty low key in regards to their own isvara-bhava. It may have been overboard in promoting their guru as Babhru suggested, but at least it wasn't in the direction of self-promotion. I like sannyasis, and I'm all for good ones who inspire.
I was just saying that being vanacaris like guru nistha and nitai sundara also does not hurt. It is a prerogative of the guru to decide how he wants to give sannyasa and I just felt that it is not easy to judge which system is better, especially because it is a detail.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - January 7, 2011 3:35 pm
Whoa--it looks as though Gaura-vijaya deleted a comment, which makes my 8:58 posting look just nuts.
Yes I felt I was denigrating everyone like you pointed out. I realized that before your post came in and I deleted it. My experience has been limited, so I cannot comment on NM disciples. I made the mistake before when I commented on devotees in Alachua and you got on my case. I should refrain from commenting on other devotees and I realize that.
Gopakumara Das - January 7, 2011 7:37 pm
I mean this with a spirit of honesty not of challenging:
My prediction is that the future of international Gaudiya Vaisnavism will have very little to do with sannyasis and much more to do with lay people who have cultivated sadhana and later bhava from their own home altars. We are just not a civilization of renunciates and although a few renunciates will always emerge and stand out for their dedication, a viable model needs to be established and sustained for engaging the vast majority of Gaudiyas who live outside of the mathas (probably like 95%). And please... no one suggest daiva-varnashrama!! It's humorous to me how much of what we Gaudiyas talk and preach about is geared toward the minority group and lifestyle.
I like sannyasis too... but I think we need to refocus. If truly we want GV to grow to every town and village as a real presence, not just a traveling kirtana party, we need to think about community building and the empowerment of those sadhakas living in the towns and villages themselves, not just the vana. We also need some sort of engagement with which our lineage and the greater secular society can relate. For all the valid critique there is of ISKCON, no one thus far has accomplished the community building task better than them. This is why those shining examples of bhakti often emerge from a boiling of the ISKCON community milk.
Madan Gopal Das - January 7, 2011 8:02 pm
good points, and I won't offer anything back, because I agree. I like "householders" too, and in my particular geographic and asrama situation, I love to see that inspiration of people who reflect some of the diversity of devotees you see in Caitanya lila. Learned, inspired, saintly householders who can hold a job and interact with the world, but you can see are living a full "other" life. Let's do it! Nama-hatta's, reading groups, srivas-angan style kirtan gatherings, hosting of sadhus...
Gopakumara Das - January 7, 2011 8:07 pm
You are in so much "like" lately guru bhai!
I say go for it too. However, unfortunately we are a small group with few ties to other groups (not necessarily by our own doing...but hey...there it is...) and are rather scattered by the wind! Either we make our mission MUCH bigger or we have to find a way to gather. Difficult given that we all have jobs, partners, homes, etc. Any realistic suggestions?
Where are all 128 of us? hello...hello...hello...hell....hel...he....h..... (simulated echo if you didn't get that...). Does anyone else sometimes think that the state of the participation on this TV forum is a parallel to the state of our community? I check TV about 15 times a day hoping some of the 128 will have said something. I actually really want to know what is happening with people and what they are thinking....
Madan Gopal Das - January 7, 2011 8:25 pm
well at least out here we are all householders, many associated with iskcon to varying degrees and over the years of hosting guru maharaj a few of our friends become more and more inspired by him. we just have to be who we are in our faith and the natural relationships develop out of that. iskcon has a huge social spectrum, but it is also largely based on one guru - Prabhupada - and it gets more and more individualized as you move away from that focus. But really, Iskcon people have that "big family" feeling due to Prabhupada-centrism. He's the glue, no matter if you have your own guru, a different practice or whatever. Our mission cannot really compare, because people have to be absorbed enough, philosophical enough and detached from society consciousness enough to catch onto GM. And then those numbers are going to be limited unfortunately. We gather with the ones we've got, and that's what we can do!
Are you talking about all of us in SCS gathering together?
Madan Gopal Das - January 7, 2011 8:26 pm
oh, just saw your edit about T.V. Don't you know? FB is the new TV!
T.V. seems to be in a bit of a slump lately. I think because of competing sites; harmonist and fb.
Nitaisundara Das - January 7, 2011 10:30 pm
I think the topic you introduce Gopa is complicated. Mostly it seems to come down to what kind of Krishna consciousness you want to have in every town and village. As Madan alluded to, the higher the conception or emphasis, the smaller the group. Look at Buddhism in the West, it has flourished in one sense, but it is also exploited for consumer culture and new types of philosophical deviations have developed as well as what seems to me like a fair bit of making the path subservient to materialism in some peoples' attempts to make it more acceptable.
Iskcon of course demonstrates this principle as well. Iskcon has done more community building and takes part in various welfare projects, but not without a cost. Aksaya patra does glorious things for children in India and gets a lot of good publicity for devotees, but at heart the founder, and I assume most of the devotee members, have effectively hlated their spiritual life via philosophical deviation (rtvik). Of course you do not have to be shallow in KC or deviant to do good for people or build community, but practically we often see there being some kind of trade off.
Otherwise, bhava is sudurlabha. Hell, for all intents and purposes, it seems to me that nistha is sudurlabha. Most sannyasis will probably have neither, but the fact remains that simply on a practical level, a sannyasi has less external distractions and also more facility (mostly time) for study, contemplation, preaching, etc. Does this mean their mind is calmer than a householder? Absolutely not, but I don't think we can deny that favorable external circumstances are, well, favorable.
Gopakumara Das - January 8, 2011 1:04 am
Nitaisundara,
While I agree with you in principal, I think that this thinking is often used as an excuse to not do anything differently. The truth of the matter is that bhava is sudurlabha, as is nistha (great point by the way), whether or not you have a strong community of members engaged in community building and welfare work. You almost make it sound as if one will be less likely to achieve the prayojana if one is engaged in the ways I suggest? I think quite the opposite is true. I think those for whom KC is the center of their lifestyle –whether in its most profound expressions or its lighter counterparts– are far more likely to be consistent in their sadhana and reorient themselves toward saranagati. In fact, the reason I believe this to be the case is that –anecdotally speaking– those sadhakas engaged in a community are more stable in their sadhana and more accountable to their cohorts. Now add to that the siksa, spiritual focus & potency we get from GM and you have a great equation for success.
The alternative is having people, like me in San Fran, who spend a couple of hours a day in utter solitude (have you seen my office/altar room? It's a matchbox.): cultivating their diksa mantras, then japa (4-16 rounds), reading some scripture, listening to talks from GM, checking TV and Harmonist, and then.... out of things to do. I suggest that at the end of all this there can be an evening talk (given by a community member), or a kirtana group, or a feeding of prasadama to the poor (or whatever). Do you really think this would make the quality of KC in the world and in my sadhana worse or watered down? Quite the opposite... on occassion instead of going to the movies, a bar, dinner out, or watching TV at home (and these are tame compared to what I know some sadhakas do when they run out of engagement), one could have something slightly more on the sattvik platform to be engaged in.
Some people will argue, "We never discouraged any of these activities!" This is true... but not discouraging is qualitatively different from encouraging. This is what I believe we need, a type of encouragement that is tantamount to having one's activities sanctioned by a sadhu.
The most dedicated will often be a smaller group. No one will argue this point. But this is no reason to stand by and watch as sadhakas fall to the wayside or slip out the back door sometimes never to be heard of again. This is what a more laissez faire attitude about community organization and engagement will often result in. Do we need more evidence than what we have all seen in the history of GV? I am not suggesting this is the only issue to contend with or that resolving this will end all attrition, but it might help us confront a problem head on. Do you not find it strange that the public attitudes toward GV has not improved much at all in 40+ years? It might even have gotten worse as more stable neo-Hindu groups have become popular (like Yoga lineages). Have you wondered why?
Listen, practically speaking it is as simple as this: GM or Vrindaranya or someone in administrative power explicitly states, "Find the 3-10 devotees in your town and host a kirtana/bhajanas evening once a week. We want this to happen." Then, I feel justified in calling Vamsi, Caitanya daya, and whoever else we don't even know is in the area, and prepare a program to explicitly please GM.
Gauravani Dasa - January 8, 2011 1:22 am
As Madan alluded to, the higher the conception or emphasis, the smaller the group.
I agree with Madan and Nitai on this point. To the extent that our outreach attempts to reach a wider audience, then that much "watered-down" the conception must be. I would not compromise quality (depth) for quantity.
The alternative is to set a good example. Even as grhastas, if we are trying to increase our dedication to our Gurudeva then our worldly interactions will be influenced by our internal effort. As sadhakas we tend to be less influenced by the gunas and people notice, even if subtly.
I hope the organizational structure of IPBYS does not interfere with the free flow of faith. Will some come to our Guru Maharaja for inspiration? Would they invite him to speak? Their recent articles suggest that Western outreach will increase. How will this effect Iskcon? Will Iskcon view us differently?
Gauravani Dasa - January 8, 2011 1:44 am
The most dedicated will often be a smaller group. No one will argue this point. But this is no reason to stand by and watch as sadhakas fall to the wayside or slip out the back door sometimes never to be heard of again. This is what a more laissez faire attitude about community organization and engagement will often result in.
The sadhaka also has a responsibility to make an effort to involve him/herself in a meaningful way. Whether or not a sadhaka ceases to practice is not entirely dependent on the community or its organizers. In fact, I would argue that social dynamics can create problems (especially for an introvert like myself).
Nitaisundara Das - January 8, 2011 4:35 am
I think you both make very good points.
Gopa, I could have laid out my comments better, but the bhava paragraph was more intended in reply to your original thoughts about sannyasa becoming less relevant and people cultivating bhava in their home altars, which I find a little unrealistic. NOT that it's unrealistic that someone can cultivate bhava in their home sadhana, but that we discuss people cultivating bhava like it will be occurring frequently, or even occasionally, when in fact, as we have acknowledged, it is sudurlabha.
The community building is different subject, or at least I did not intend the bhava comment to be in relation to community building.
What fosters community building amongst devotees? A major element is community (meaning sheer numbers of people). What increases numbers of people? Less emphasis on essential spirituality. This is not bad for those who would otherwise be even less involved, but I simply mean to highlight the inherent (and historically realized) dangers. That is why I began my last post saying that the situation is complicated. There are pros and cons on both sides. At no point and in no scenario is there not a compromise. There is a reason Prabhupada called for boiling of the milk and there is a reason he toiled to accumulate so much milk, both are there.
As you have suggested elsewhere, from some angles I can view it as each sanga has its role. Ideally that role would not be divisive an prone to aparadha, but the unique features of each would foster the faith of certain people and offer more suitable practical engagement. Just like a macrocosm of the guru. The problem is, a sat guru is a sat guru, an institution (and its accompanying communities, activities, etc) even if founded or headed by a sat-guru is another thing altogether. Of course there is also the issue that the aspects that make a group prone to aparadha (black and white/good guy bad guy mentality) are often what attract hoards of followers. Conundrum.
I must say I question the need for anyone's explicit endorsement of, for example, a study group in order to feel that it would please GM.
Thanks for the discussion!
Nitaisundara Das - January 8, 2011 7:03 am
Two big points of clarification: Gauravani wrote the quote that you cited above, not me, and I tried to be very clear that I was not saying sudurlabha puts someone practicing at home at a disadvantage, but that your initial post spoke as if numerous people will be cultivating bhava at home, when my point is that numerous people will not even be cultivating bhava, anywhere. Your right the point is not made to discourage people, but if we have a drastically different conception, it could be discouraging on some level. When Bhaktivinoda said someone could spend thousands of lives in anartha nivrti, was he trying to dishearten the sadhakas? I doubt it, but it certainly can be.
My point about GM's endorsement was not that encouragement is unnecessary, but I highly doubt the kind of encouragement you mentioned (which was basically "I would like you to do this") would sustain such a gathering in a significant way. The individual will has to be there. Of course GM might give more encouragement, like he facilitates the Portland Gita meetings via skype by giving a talk to them when hes available. Now if your talking about certain devotees overseeing, planning, and encouraging such gatherings on an ongoing basis, that has a lot more potential to me and sounds like a good idea that could have benefit for the facilitator too, who may or may not be a monk I would think.
Please do note though that it seems like the force in your last reply stems from some misreading, so I hope the discussion can continue as I am really enjoying it.
Gauravani Dasa - January 8, 2011 11:52 am
Of course it is not the community's responsibility to care for it's members to the point of dependence, but what you propose reeks of frontierman western individualism. We are interelated, now and into eternity. We shouldn't justify social carelessness with an exaggerated emphasis on personal choice and responsibility. Of course social dynamics can cause problems, especially for some (who usually opt for self imposed isolation), but social estrangement causes more. That is well documented by sociology and psychology and empiricism and common sense.
Gopakumara, I respect and appreciate your emphasis on community and I recognize my own psychological need for independence (however illusory) and quiet time away from people.
Sadhakas who are naturally inclined to socialize, and are good at it, should organize. Those of us who are neither inclined nor adept in socializing should not. My point is that the social organizers should respect the individual needs of introverted sadhakas and their ability to "take their own temperature" in regard to social participation, as well as what they can offer "in the background." I'm not advocating social estrangement or the avoidance of sadhu-sanga altogether.
Is the purpose of the community you are proposing for outreach or "boiling the milk?" I think the approached used in either case would be very different and I think devotees sometimes do not consider that difference. Still, Srila Sridhar Maharaja mentions that outreach can be more absorbing for the mind that nama-smaranam.
Nitaisundara Das - January 8, 2011 4:51 pm
I don't think you were being an ass, I just wanted to be clear about the quote mix-up and the other point about sudurlabha in hopes that any ill will stemming from that did not develop more and impede the discussion.
Bijaya Kumara Das - January 8, 2011 9:57 pm
Gopa Kumar:
What has GM directed in the sense of this?
Guru-nistha Das - January 10, 2011 4:07 am
A zonal brahmacari system? Now that's a new idea!
Ah, there's so much intriguing stuff in this thread but I will never have time to go through it and thoroughly think about it but here's one suggestion:
I'm actually interested to see if other house holders are into the idea of us monks calling them up once a month as Gopa suggested. I like the idea of an organized system of keeping in touch like that because I know from six years of ashrama experience that it's extremely easy to push correspondence to the back of the to-do list when there are so many undone things in the immediate environment.
So my suggestion is that everybody who would be into Gopa's idea speak up right now and post up their consent here in this thread.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - January 10, 2011 4:21 am
A zonal brahmacari system? Now that's a new idea!Ah, there's so much intriguing stuff in this thread but I will never have time to go through it and thoroughly think about it but here's one suggestion:
I'm actually interested to see if other house holders are into the idea of us monks calling them up once a month as Gopa suggested. I like the idea of an organized system of keeping in touch like that because I know from six years of ashrama experience that it's extremely easy to push correspondence to the back of the to-do list when there are so many undone things in the immediate environment.
So my suggestion is that everybody who would be into Gopa's idea speak up right now and post up their consent here in this thread.
I have booked nitai for myself. I am in his zone.
Nitaisundara Das - January 10, 2011 4:22 am
I was waiting to hear others' thoughts on this to help me gather my own, but since they don't seem to be coming....
Here is what I suggest for our group:
Each Audarya and Madhuvana vasi becomes a Zonal Pratinidhi (representative) in charge of a continent where SCS members live. Their task would be to make a monthly outreach call or email to each member of the sangha to see how they are doing, if they need any counsel, and if they could use any practical guidance on sadhana or devotional activities with their local SCS siblings. If there is a zone that has many members such as North Carolina or Finland, the Zonal Pratinidhi has a Regional Pratinidhi (RP) whose task it is to reach out to the members in a similar manner and report back to the Zonal Pratinidhi (ZP). The RP can also have a Community Pratinidhi (CP) if the region has a very large membership. The ZP would be in charge of keeping GM posted, probably via one email, on how people are doing and what activities they are up to. Anyone who is struggling can be referred to another member who might be of help, a SCS life counselor or spiritual advisor. This person would not be a therapist as much as a liason to needed help. This entire process, if done correctly will take a few hours a month per person.
I found the more simple idea of having people facilitate study groups more attractive and plausible. There is no restriction that prevents more personal or intimate relationships like what you describe here from taking place, so they can very well develop naturally in some instances. But I think there are some significant hurdles to what you propose above. One is that some people simply do not want someone in between them and GM. I admire your willingness to have that, but some people would not want it or would quickly begin to feel it was not working for them. Especially in a situation that someone is telling you something that pinches, it can be harder to hear (and easier to dismiss) if it is not coming from GM. I say this with plenty of first hand experience. Obviously the intention of the situation is not for anyone to heavy anyone else out, but in meaningful spiritual friendships there is certainly a place for that, and it usually can go both ways.
I guess all in all I think this sounds a little rigid and like the relationships that would exist within this system would be somewhat forced. So I don't really think the whole thing would take off (in this exact form).
This is subject to the issue I mentioned above, but reduced emails to GM is definitely desirable and moreso as the mission grows.Here is what I believe this will accomplish:
1. Reduced emails to GM consisting of basic updates, without the loss of contact, as he will be continuously updated in a systemic way (important as we continue growing as a mission)
2. A significant increase in group morale and sadhana nistha as sadhakas begin to feel like more integral members of the community and have their concerns/impediments addressed.
3. Increase in practical devotional activities (kirtanas, reading groups, etc.) amongst groups in SCS as a group consciousness will be cultivated and encouraged.
4. A better comprehension of what is happening in our sangha.
5. Increase in preaching as both morale and engagement will be heightened.
6. Increase in revenue for SCS as increased morale increases the desire to give, as does accountability.
7. Bridging the gap between the monastic and the lay community.
8. Increase in the engagement of lay community members in seva opportunities much needed in SCS.
9. Reduced attrition (people leaving) as they will feel accountable to and affectively bonded with members in the community. They will also have their struggles acknowledged and addressed rather than missed.
10. Communication of GM's activities and wishes to members of the community who are frequently out of the loop.
These are just what I have come up with today.
These things are all desirable, but I personally think your ratio of communal inspiration to individual will is somewhat off. What I mean to say is that I do not thinkin most cases an arrangement like this would affect the degree of change that you think it would. And that is not to say forget any such idea because it needs to be all or nothing, but I think going in to any such scenario with a realistic picture will give rise to the best results.
Thats my 2 cents for now
I hope other people chime in!
Guru-nistha Das - January 10, 2011 4:52 pm
Another point that came to mind:
I don't think all the monks should be forced to become a contact person. They should have a similar option as the householders to opt out. It's just not in the nature of some of us to be like that. I'm more of an extrovert myself so I wouldn't have any problem but I'm voicing this for some others who are much more introverted.
Gopakumara Das - January 10, 2011 5:42 pm
Another point that came to mind:I don't think all the monks should be forced to become a contact person. They should have a similar option as the householders to opt out. It's just not in the nature of some of us to be like that. I'm more of an extrovert myself so I wouldn't have any problem but I'm voicing this for some others who are much more introverted.
Well, that does make sense.... tell them that when the time comes...take babaji initiation not sannyasa! Ha!
First of all this has not even been accepted. It is just a chat amongst 4 of us. Second, I have no position of authority in the group and as always am reaching beyond my qualification for something it is preposterous to reach for! But I guess that is why I was named Gopakumara dasa as he was the same way and benefitted from it. Here's hoping. Third, if something like this did happen it would have to be strongly encouraged and implemented by GM. But it would be absolutely fair that a few exceptions would have to exist for those that need more introversion.
Another aspect of this system that will have to be in place is a Gopa Pushan (A cowherder who's blessing it is to find lost members of the flock and return them). As far as I know we have had many members fall by the wayside. We need someone to contact the people who fall away from the group and try to reach a hand out for help and return. This will not always be effective as some sadhakas need to go away in order to return. However, the effort of reaching out will make a samskara on the sadhaka and serve as a reminder of the group's care and concern. This will encourage return and ease the process of return. I can use myself as an example. I have a vile tendency to doubt everything. I cannot surrender entirely. My arrogance causes me to need to leave from time to time. The last time I left for years. However, as I was leaving Audarya Lila prabhu reached out to me several times. He was loving, kind, and understanding. He was also forceful in his efforts. I did not stay....but I remembered these acts very much and when I returned it was partially thanks to him.
This person would have to be guru-nishta (not the brahmacari... but the adikara!), sadhana/sraddha nishta and extroverted. They will hear a lot of doubts, some of which will be compelling. It is important that they are not subject to such sraddha fluctuations and that they can reach out forcefully. This is why Pushan is an appropriate term as this is the Rg Veda deity of the lost flock and was a representative of the sun (Gurumaharaja). Pushan was also responsible for meeting, journeys, and roads...so he is best for navigating these domains.
Gaura-Vijaya Das - January 10, 2011 6:20 pm
Another point that came to mind:I don't think all the monks should be forced to become a contact person. They should have a similar option as the householders to opt out. It's just not in the nature of some of us to be like that. I'm more of an extrovert myself so I wouldn't have any problem but I'm voicing this for some others who are much more introverted.
With 25 total people in our sangha in north america, I don't know with so many options for everybody how will a big structure work?
Gauravani Dasa - January 10, 2011 6:47 pm
Gopakumara, I really appreciate your ideas and the discussion but I would be cautious in making the system formal. I agree with Nitai in that a lot of this happens in a natural way. Personally, I feel that relationships would be best fostered through seva, which, to me, means directly helping the Audarya-vasis with a project, or helping someone else who is directly helping the Audarya-vasis. (Madhuvan-vasis too )
I like your idea about reaching to those who have left. I would not feel comfortable doing this myself but it seems like it would be nice seva for GM and the mission.
Madan Gopal Das - January 10, 2011 8:36 pm
Unfortunately I do not have the time to be as active in this discussion as I would like because I am currently a working single-parent while Gaurangi is in India. Things are just a tad busy!
I think my gut reaction to the discussion that has taken place and what appears to be Gopa-kumara's well thought out proposal is again a personal preference towards (or realization of) natural social/spiritual development rather than formalized management of such. Let's call it "faith based initiative" !!!!
To me, the system you (Gopa) are proposing sounds similar to a program that Radhanath Swami has in place in India (counselor system). Atmananda out here in NC is his disciple and he has told me before that some had tried to transpose that system used in Chowpatty temple onto the US disciples but it didn't work at all the same due to the cultural differences with Americans, and also Radhanath Swami having a different relationship with his U.S. disciples (closer, more accessible) than the Indian temples where he is primarily based and has huge congregations. I'll try to turn Atmananda onto this thread, he may have some thoughts.
As for the natural development scenario, I just think of my own experience out here. For all intents and purposes Gaurangi and I were the only disciples of GM in our immediate area and we had this tenuous connection with the Iskcon temple. I feel like I (we) became so enlivened (naturally) by hosting him that we would then naturally connect all things to him, invite our friends to hear from him, center our lives around him, defend him by working through peoples' misconceptions about him, hear from him and then our interest and affection for him probably naturally caused him to come back again and we would organize more programs, invite more friends, etc... Also, I realize that the "closer in" you are to GM's center, understanding his mood, desires, style, etc., you attract people who want that level of involvement, and others who want varying degrees of that. This all has to accounted for on a local level. After years of this cycle I've described, we've seen more interest in GM grow, people participate more in our sanga, etc. I feel like out here we have a pretty good congregation type situation but without the central temple. We may have some of what you are suggesting (every town and village), but in a very organic way, born out of the enthusiasm of a few of us for GM's sanga. We have organized a mailing list, a non-profit corporation, Gauravani has used tons of skills in creating a website, we have reading groups semi-regularly, we are organizing more and more on our local level trying to hold local scs-nc gatherings, some of us offer seva to GM's projects, visits from our local group to GM's asramas, and now the pursuit of starting a more central asrama/land community here... but this is not due to the influence of something outside of our immediate community, rather it is happening from our getting GM's sanga as often as we can tug him over here by our affection. And my impression is that he prefers to play that role, giving his association and letting us figure out the local management issues.
It would appear to me that your bringing up this strategy is due to your natural enthusiasm for seva growing and that could quite possibly give birth to organization of something in your local area. Just like a couple years ago Prema and Jason used to try to organize programs for GM in the Bay Area. You mentioned earlier that you see a need for association in your local area with GM's disciples and maybe this building of need is just the beginning of your taking charge and getting something like that going there. Call up all those people, organize local get togethers, put any of your good ideas into action and I can almost guarantee that the natural reaction coming from GM will be to go there. That will in turn enthuse it more. Portland is an example, NC is an example, now Prema is trying to organize in NY...
I think your points about reaching out to those who have fallen away from the sanga are a different issue. Though preventable and curable by more local development.
So, I guess my overall message is that its up to us! And if we are doing something incorrect GM will definitely let us know about it.
Okay, I've been writing this for several hours in-between work, so maybe my post is irrelevant now. But there you go.
Madan Gopal Das - January 10, 2011 8:45 pm
What I mean by local development helping with the "fallen away" factor: Personal connection is everything. I think wherever x devotee fell away from, those devotees who were in that persons area and had relationship with him/her should pursue maintaining connection. I would hope that is only natural.
Guru-nistha Das - January 10, 2011 9:19 pm
How is it naive? He just listed a whole bunch of accomplishments that are a direct outcome of his efforts and a prime example of natural growth.
Madan Gopal Das - January 10, 2011 9:20 pm
not sure if you are referring to what you quoted about the "fallen away" hope or the concept of natural development out of faith being naive. I think my experience of both is the opposite of naivety. Right? I'm not holding out hope that it would work, I have seen it work. And you suggest by your own story and Audarya-lila's reaching out that a local effort is fruitful.
Madan Gopal Das - January 10, 2011 9:22 pm
totally appreciating this discussion by the way.
Hari Bhakti - January 11, 2011 11:07 pm
Thanks for the posts. I think this is an interesting topic. I can only speak from my own experience here in Portland. We are small in number, seven of us in total, but we have a nice study group that meets 2 times a month, this has been happening for over a year now. It all evolved fairly organically based on a common desire to stay connected during the time in between trips to Audarya. I do most of the organizing but the group really has a life of its own. There is no reason others with similar interests in other parts of the county could not do the same. It is not always easy to find time and sometimes peoples interests wax and wane, but we defiantly have a sense of community here.
As for the connection with monastics at Audarya, I like when I get to check in with someone. Although it would feel like less than a genuine connection if I knew it was someones responsibility to call me.
Thanks again for bringing this up, it's interesting to hear all the different ideas.
Gaurasundara Das - January 13, 2011 3:18 am
I also appreciated this discussion but I find the monastics' role in this scheme to be actually more the role of a priest than a monk. There are important differences between the two. A priest is much more pastoral, ministering to people living in the world and dealing with all that comes with that. Priests are often trained in psychology, marriage counseling etc. A monk on the other hand is purposely living removed from the world often in secluded places for the purpose of cultivating inner life. This is the reason why Guru Maharaj is establishing monasteries like Audarya and Madhuvan.
I think it's cool for the monks to keep everyone updated on the goings-on in the ashram, but honestly I don't know how many people are really that interested. It seems that those who really do have an interest keep in touch with what's happening. Guru Maharaj and company have provided so much for people to connect with in terms of books, talks, websites and even weekly phone calls. I guess I feel like the whole structured plan is a bit too evangelical for me. Certainly there is room for this type of thing in the Gaudiya community and would be beneficial for many people but I don't feel like it is a natural fit for our Sanga.
Syamasundara - January 13, 2011 4:37 am
A few thoughts from me, although it appears I caught up too late.
In 14 years, I don't remember GM ever talking along these lines (referring to Gopa's proposal), and he did say, albeit once as far as I know, that he's at least 30 years ahead of all us. Most likely, he meant he is so in spirit, as we really don't know what things will be like in 30 years, given how fast technology and climate are changing, but the point is that there is no lack of ideas on his part on how to spread the mission and keep everyone engaged and inspired, if only we tune in.
As GS said, we have websites, the swami call, all kinds of media; if people don't keep in touch with the siksa and sanga, chances are that's what they want or that they have at least chosen the level of intensity they want to be connected at.
Personally, I'm split between both camps. In 2003 I was lost in Europe, still trying to make money for the green card and go back to the US. I was never really disenfranchised with GV, especially with GM, as I had no reason, but since I was so far from the fire, I got a little cold, so to speak, in terms of sadhana, and I remember really feeling grateful that I could go through that phase of slow pace and self-observance without anyone calling in and asking me if I was chanting my rounds or how I was doing.
On the other hand, when TV was launched, I was among the first ten to become members, but above all, after two years of having almost disappeared in the woodwork, as far as I recall, one day GM wrote me out of the blue to give me Gopala Tapani to proofread, once he wrote me on Nityananda Trayodasi just to say "Jaya Nitai!" and before or after that he wrote me a very affectionate letter, of which one part I can share said something like: "Your dip in the material world has lasted long enough. Now come back."
So, I appreciate both being left alone and being the object of a reach-out.
I'd have to agree with others that if the reach-out is standardized and scheduled, it really loses its efficacy.
Going back to what GM has been factually saying over the years, phrases like "preach by overflow" come to mind.
Those who are naturally inclined for full-time service should be doing just that, and by the overflow of what they reap they will inspire the visitors in such a way that a yearly visit at our monasteries can keep someone charged until the following year, or at least charged enough to take the initiative to log onto our websites, get on the swami call, etc. Sri Nityananda Prabhu would reach to each and everyone and beg them to worship Gauranga, and that was enough, people would just be inspired; he never had to check up on them again
And by overflow, or better said, simply by genuine interest in one or more persons that someone has a friendly relationship with, one can even reach out and touch bases. I do that when inspired to some people, but I definitely couldn't do it as part of my sadhana and with just anyone.
But even if people don't visit physically, as the full-time devotees ripen, the overflow might manifest as articles on the Harmonist, or thoughtful posts on TV, or any other way that may impact someone favorably.
Lastly, it's my understanding that there already are cohesive groups happening and meeting: the Portland Yatra is there, the people who come from NL, UK and Sweden when GM goes to the Finnish retreat do other festivals together as well (last time I checked), and the NC yatra is also going as nicely as Madan Gopal has described.
But what about the lone satellites, like Babhru in FL (not for long!), Devyapati, Vijaya Govinda in Canada, etc? That's when an internet community makes more sense. Tattva Viveka is just that, and the Harmonist, even Facebook. We can all leave comments, hear about others, etc., and if we want to go deeper with someone there is always Skype or similar messenger.
Syamasundara - January 13, 2011 5:03 am
The alternative is having people, like me in San Fran, who spend a couple of hours a day in utter solitude (have you seen my office/altar room? It's a matchbox.): cultivating their diksa mantras, then japa (4-16 rounds), reading some scripture, listening to talks from GM, checking TV and Harmonist, and then.... out of things to do.
This kind of stuck in my mind and seems to be the key to the whole discussion. What if someone called you up and started telling you: "Why 4/16 rounds? Why not always 16 if you have time to spare? Why only read "some" scripture and not keep reading until you pass out, or the world calls again? Surely if you have the great fortune to do all that daily you should have some taste by now, some enthusiasm to go to Audarya next time they have a tree planting marathon of whatever and help plant, or even sponsor the trees. If you run out of things to do, ask them! No dearth of projects."
Otherwise, I know in what context you said "out of things to do" and there is some merit to your points, and if the discussion hasn't detoured by tomorrow I'll say one more thing. Now I'm practically sleep-typing.
Gauravani Dasa - January 13, 2011 3:30 pm
Maybe we should ring up anyone who hasn't signed into TV for the last 3 months and see what they think? Not to shame them for sadhana lapses, but to ask how they are. Shall we pass a list of phone numbers out to those of us that are participating in the discussion and dovetail our inspiration into collecting some information from those that might benefit the most? Or maybe if they were interested enough, they would already know what we are discussing.
Sometimes, people need to get their material lives in order (psychologically, fiscally, etc.) before they can renew their commitment and connection. I would not feel comfortable offering psychological (or even financial) advice if it were needed.
Gopakurma, this really sounds like something you have the most inspiration and ability to do in your area.
Sridama Dasa - January 13, 2011 4:02 pm
Just this morning I logged in to TV for the first time in a week or so and I've spent the last hour reading this thread. (This, btw, is one of the things that frustrates me about TV -- I rarely have an hour to read and catch up on everything. However, I broke my leg three days after Christmas and am on crutches for 8 more weeks, so I have a little more time right now.)
I think I might be a prime example of the type of sangha member that Gopa is thinking about. (Btw, hi Gopa, long time no see
Part of me would love a check-in every once in a while from a godsibling, and I say this mainly because I know I'll fall by the wayside on my own. I hate it, (like, really hate it) but I've come to accept that I just don't have the internal motivation that I thought I once had. It's like when I really think down deep to the core of my being, there's nothing in the world more important to me than GM and hearing from him. Nothing fills my heart more or makes me happier.
But like the example he has given many times about the television set, I'm small. And I am easily distracted -- by the world, by my busy daily life but mostly by the incessant chatter in my mind that pulls me everywhere except where I know I need and want to be.
So, for that reason, I'd love to have an "Audarya pen pal" to pull me back in every so often. The way my mind works is that when I fall down in my practice or get depressed or angry, I feel ashamed and then I stay away. I don't log onto TV, I don't call in to the Sunday calls -- I avoid all the "good stuff" because I'm in a bad place in my mind. I remember talking to Citta Hari once about chanting when you're in a bad place mentally. He said that chanting came somewhat naturally to him in those instances, but I'm the opposite. I avoid it, and my situation just gets worse.
Do I think having an Audarya pen pal would be a little goofy and kind of Sunday school-ish? Definitely, but it might help me get through my own ups and downs a little easier. My two cents.
I'm gonna go ahead and click 'post' before I think too long and talk myself into deleting this!
Guru-nistha Das - January 13, 2011 5:34 pm
Gopakumara, I'm going to be very blunt with my reply since you have taken a very candid approach yourself.
What your writing really comes down to, behind all the touchy-feely fluff, is that you think Guru Maharaja doesn't know how to most effectively run his mission. You project all these things to the monastics as if we were some independent agents, but you have to understand (which I think you do on some level but won't admit it to yourself) is that the way we use our time is directly monitored and enforced by Guru Maharaja. That is what brahmacaris do. They do the bidding of their Guru. You want to emphasize the social aspects of a mission but what you don't understand is that that directly takes energy, manpower and money away from the efforts that we are currently involved in. And all these efforts are directly orchestrated by Guru Maharaja. So think again when you make your accusations about the monks being cold-hearted and uncompassionate! We work our butts off and it's not only for our own upliftment at all. What you fail to see is that Guru Mahaharaja has a far-reaching vision that invests in the future. You are like a kid crying to his dad that he never spends any time with him but he works night and day to secure money that he can secure his child's future. Why don't you try to get on board with Guru Maharaja's vision instead of fighting it in the name of making it better?
In my head your following piece solidified it that you have misunderstood the mood of Guru Maharaja's mission:
By the way, almost all major religions have a system like the one I proposed. The Mormons, with whom we have a lot in common as an organization, have systems for social cohesion and accountability. They are also the fastest growing religion in the world. Correlation, not causation, but compelling.
First of all Mormons don't have any kind of monastic order, hell they are actually anti-monasticism. Their whole faith is very mundane and is based on family attachment and a material sense of community that they want to "beam up" to heaven. The whole dynamo of GV is the fully dedicated advanced devotees (btw, I'm not equating them with monastics per se) who energize the larger group, and propelled by that inspiration, the lay community starts organizing. It seems from several of your comments that you want to do away with this dynamo and have things be "healthier" socially and psychologically by evening the ground. What you seem to miss is that there is a siddhantic reason for the things that you see as unhealthy, and the reason lies in people's interests and focus. Monastics are meant to cultivate inner life and share the realizations that come from that (which Gaurasundara nicely pointed out). They are not supposed to be the marriage counselors etc. That's your job!
The ironical thing is that in another thread you were putting down Christainity but a lot of your ideas, if fully implemented, would lead to a similar situation than what Christianity finds itself in: a watered down, mundane protestantism. The power of mystical traditions comes from the mystics who are (if not there yet, at least on their way) beyond social convention. That's just something you have to either deal with or join your local Christian church.
That being said, there is grounds for healthy social interaction between the monks and the lay community, but I think your view is way out of balance with regard to how it should be conducted.
Citta Hari Dasa - January 13, 2011 5:52 pm
Maybe it's that I live in San Francisco or that I am a psychotherapist. . .
It is a farce to eat a vegetarian diet, intended to minimize that harm we do to other living entities and then take a passive stance when it comes to the hurts of our own family. We seem to care more for chickens and catfish then we do for dying or suffering peers.
Gopa, I question whether the fact that you identify yourself as a psychotherapist and the world view that entails always works in your favor in terms of understanding or in living Gaudiya siddhanta. While there may be some similarities, modern Western psychology and yoga psychology are very different in their aims and in their respective approaches to dealing with the mind. Modern psychology says "Be yourself" but does not actually address what the self is and so can only deal with personality issues to a limited degree. It may help one become more authentic as a person but does so within the boundaries of a karmically-imposed sense of self. Yoga psychology says to be yourself and then proceeds to define what the self actually is and then further points out that in order to realize that self the material ego must be effaced entirely.
Regarding the vegetarian point, I don't think the two are analogous. The animals who are being eaten by people have no choice in the matter, whereas (as has been pointed out already) sadhakas often take some distance by their own choice because that is what they need to do at that time.
I have spoken at length with some of the people you're talking about, people who were once involved but who fell away for whatever reason. They show up at a festival or whatever, get inspired and say "I can't believe I've stayed away for so long! I'm going to come more often!" and then silence from them for months or even years. Would that change if someone more involved chased them down with a phone call? I'm sure in some cases it would. But in my experience in most cases people who are "on the outs" want it that way. As Gaurasundara and Syama have pointed out, there is no dearth of ways to tune in to what GM is doing--the Internet is up 24/7 and no one is standing on their hands preventing them from logging on. The compassion is there. If GM thought what you propose would be effective he would have had someone doing it years ago. You mentioned how Sridhara Maharaja cried when he heard one of SP's disciples left. He also had disciples of his own who lived near his matha who never went there. Did he send people to their houses to see how they were doing or did he tend to the people who were interested enough to show up and listen to him?
Sridama Dasa - January 13, 2011 6:02 pm
I don't want to comment on Guru Nistha or Citta's response to Gopa -- but I do hope my post was clear. It was not meant to insult or imply any unfulfilled duty on the part of any of GM's monastic students, all of whom (the ones I've met) I consider friends.
I actually was a little embarrassed after I made my post and thought it sounded like a pity party, which was not my intention either. Community and keeping in touch are good things that we should all do, myself included. I definitely wasn't questioning GM or how he runs his mission.
Guru-nistha Das - January 13, 2011 6:12 pm
Sridama, I never got that impression from your post at all. I thought it was really good that you honestly said where you're at and that you'd like to have more of a connection to here. I don't think people should be intimidated to speak up but if I'm being accused of something ufairly, like I feel is the situation in Gopa's case, I will defend myself.
Nitaisundara Das - January 13, 2011 6:20 pm
Gopa, this is definitely your most objectionable post yet. But before I move on, thank you Sridama for participating, truly. And sorry to hear about your leg.
Thanks for not deleting this Sridama. It has warmed my heart to have someone admit that they could use the hand when they are down. I am in the same boat. I often say that it is not the anarthas that keep sadhakas away from sadhana but rather the embarassment of having anarthas and having them noticed by other members. This is a social problem that can be easily resolved.
Before I read the last sentence of this paragraph I was thinking "Yea, but embarassment about anarthas is ultimately an anartha as well." And that is true. So while social circumstance can absolutely assist in cleansing our anarthas and remaining inspired, you again fail to acknowledge the more fundamental, more painful side of the equation. Anarthas are embarrasing, and our reluctance to reveal them is embarrassing as well. To try to change either of those facts is to subjugate siddhanta to psychology, a tendency which I think you have. The fear of embarrasment about anarthas actually relates to a very prominent and fundamental anartha: prathistha. To say it is easily resolved is ludicrous. I AM NOT saying that external circumstances cannot be created in a way to assist anartha nivrtti, and I certainly do mean to suggest that I do not have plentiful anarthas and plenty of embarrasment and tendencies to try to conceal my anarthas. But you fail to recognize that what you are talking about is indeed anartha nivrtti, not merely fellowship and comradery. In the ultimate case sanga is absolutely everything, but in the day-to-day experience, we have to have immense amounts of personal will to perpetuate an "essential spiritual life". Please do not try to polarize my points because I am not discounting all of what you say, but seeking to view it through Gaudiya siddhanta. I think your stance is errantly black and white.
Wow. This is problematic. Firstly, you do not see it, but your issue is really with Guru Maharaja. Knowing it dangerous to fault him though you pass it off on those nearby. GM knows how we are spending our time and tells us how to spend it. Ultimately you think you know better than GM because you think that you have some unique insight that others are conveniently blind to. See my recent quotation on FB about naive realism. Not only do you have an incredibly removed position from where to assess the sanga, but in the ultimate case, following GM, even if he had some lacking inthis regard (which he doesn't) would be better for you. In my few years here you would not believe how many hours I have seen GM contemplate, discuss, and plan how to inspire and engage specific people. What do you think he has us working on websites, books, buildings, and so on for. For ourselves? He farms us out to do odd-jobs to fund these projects because they need money that we don't have. Citta Hari is working 5 days a week at Brahmas right now.I think we will always be less than we could be as a group –despite all of GM's profound realization, preaching, compassion and efforts– until the group around GM begins to take an active interest in its members. Monks are supposed to withdraw from attachement to material objects and life, not from sadhakas. It is not enough to have fellowship amongst the inspired or marginally inspired, but to cultivate inspiration in the marginalized.
I have been guilty of thinking I know better than GM as well, still do sometimes. But I have come to the simple realization that if I (or you) were in his position, we can't even speculate the shambles any mission would be in.
I remember fondly the story of when Srila Sridhara Maharaja cried when one of Prabhupada's leading disciples fell from the mission and I am certain that no expense would have been spared, emotionally or fiscally, to send people to bring him back. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta often sent his disciples to retrieve fallen members. And Nityananda prabhu would walk into a bar to retrieve a fallen sadhaka.
This is again one sided. Sridhara Maharaja also said: "Similarly, people are indeed dying, but there are also those who surround me and are ready to take what I have to give them. Why should I interrupt the important function of distribution to chase the fleeing person? I will lose my time by running and leaving the distribution." Both sides are there. The guru can only force feed us so much and sometimes the distance is the mercy. I don't mean that poetically, but sometimes literally by being closer to the guru, depending on our mentality, we can become offensive. In such cases the guru keeping distance is the mercy. AND AGAIN, I am not saying your concern is bogus, but it is not informed by siddhanta. That is just one nuance of others. Knowledge results from objectivity based in detachment. GM is detached and objective. And while a spiritually detached person can still have personal quirks and material oddities, GM is not really like that. Sure he prefers what I consider to be overcooked rice, but he is very balanced and reasonable on a human level, yet uncompromising with siddhanta.
We should cry when a sadhaka falls away from our group. And if, like me, your heart is hard, you should cultivate the interest in crying when a sadhaka falls from our group. Do we really think it is too costly, inconvenient, or unproductive to send out a few emails or make a few calls? Or is the problem that we are not cultivating compassion? We should have compassion for all living entities....what to speak of all living sadhakas who have already taken shelter of a sadhu? Our sadhu. Why is this a hard sell? It is a farce to eat a vegetarian diet, intended to minimize that harm we do to other living entities and then take a passive stance when it comes to the hurts of our own family. We seem to care more for chickens and catfish then we do for dying or suffering peers.
We should cry, but our tears should be filled with knowledge more than sentiment and they should be followed by action. But that action must be filled with knowledge too. "Doctor heal thyself" is a major part of GM's presentation. Your conception of compassion is doing less to please devotees, guru, and Krishna, than the one we are advocating. So either show a better example or join the cause. Suspicion leads to suspension. Again there is a degree of reality in your feelings, buried below ulterior interests and misconception.
I want to mention that Sridama's post is in no way analagous to yours and the content I am reacting so strongly to. The sentiment that Sridama expressed and the way in which he did it is what could set in place something that will actually bear fruit. But at this point Gopa, I think you are just sowing unrest. You do not understand the implications in your life or others of what you think are beneficial or at least innocuous viewpoints. I only write so forcefully because the implications are in reality dangerous and potentially offensive.
Gopakumara Das - January 13, 2011 6:24 pm
I am sorry. I divisive by nature.
Nitaisundara Das - January 13, 2011 6:39 pm
Gopa, do you think that GM and any attentive monk does not know that people sometimes have misgivings? Do you think you have presented something new that is too jarring and must be swept under the rug to protect our own faith? Do you think that things said behind our back never make it in front of us? Your wrong. Very wrong.
I think the calm and considerate 3 or 4 pages of this discussion is testament to how open this Sanga, under GM's tutelage, is. That some of us now feel a more forceful approach is prudent does not invalidate what was discussed before.
Syama Gopala Dasa - January 13, 2011 7:42 pm
I'm not sure why the discussion ended in this quarrel. Gopa deleted his post so not sure what to think.
I think we should be open in discussing what our needs are and how we feel we can progress the most. At the same time, we shouldn't be surprised if our sanga can't offer the solution we seek. A lot of work is done at all fronts and we are still a small group, spread out over the globe.
Prema-bhakti - January 14, 2011 12:39 am
I also appreciated this discussion but I find the monastics' role in this scheme to be actually more the role of a priest than a monk. There are important differences between the two. A priest is much more pastoral, ministering to people living in the world and dealing with all that comes with that. Priests are often trained in psychology, marriage counseling etc. A monk on the other hand is purposely living removed from the world often in secluded places for the purpose of cultivating inner life. This is the reason why Guru Maharaj is establishing monasteries like Audarya and Madhuvan.
I think it's cool for the monks to keep everyone updated on the goings-on in the ashram, but honestly I don't know how many people are really that interested. It seems that those who really do have an interest keep in touch with what's happening. Guru Maharaj and company have provided so much for people to connect with in terms of books, talks, websites and even weekly phone calls. I guess I feel like the whole structured plan is a bit too evangelical for me. Certainly there is room for this type of thing in the Gaudiya community and would be beneficial for many people but I don't feel like it is a natural fit for our Sanga.
I think these are great points Gaurasundara. The distinction between priests and monastics.
Prema-bhakti - January 14, 2011 12:59 am
Do I think having an Audarya pen pal would be a little goofy and kind of Sunday school-ish? Definitely, but it might help me get through my own ups and downs a little easier. My two cents.
I'm gonna go ahead and click 'post' before I think too long and talk myself into deleting this!
Sridama, I think this is a wonderful post. I appreciate it very much. I also feel the need to connect with friends in the sanga some of them are grhastas, lay monastics and some are monks. I am currently in NY isolated from the greater sanga although we are about an hour from eachother. :Just Kidding: I try to personally take the initiative to reach out to stay connected. I have felt over the past year a greater connection to some of my god siblings particularly by sharing in the preaching efforts of GM's mission. I made some wonderful connections with the NC sanga this past year as we were all centered around developing communities for GM. Because of that I feel I can call on these siblings when I am in need of anything and they can call on me. I also have connected with Gaura Vijaya and Audarya-lila who are in similiar transitional situations as I am. They have been so kind and available for me. I guess what I am trying to say is that if we make some gestures I have found they are reciprocated with. Guru-nistha has particularly been a great help and support to me as I try to move towards more personal surrender to GM's seva.
We have a small mission but I agree that if the disciples in a particular geographical area makes a concerted effort to connect in a way that is organic it will only serve to provide greater support to the local sadhakas as well as expand the preaching mission. This seems to be practical for the size and state of our mission at the moment. Just my two cents.
Sridama Dasa - January 14, 2011 2:24 am
Prema,
I really appreciate your reply as well. I meant to come back later today to edit my first post to include your name, as you have been great at reaching out to me over the past couple of years and I didn't want it to seem as if I had overlooked that.
We need to definitely get together -- I just broke my stupid leg so you may have to come see me! Hope you can, the door is always open. :Just Kidding:
Prema-bhakti - January 14, 2011 7:11 am
Prema,
I really appreciate your reply as well. I meant to come back later today to edit my first post to include your name, as you have been great at reaching out to me over the past couple of years and I didn't want it to seem as if I had overlooked that.
We need to definitely get together -- I just broke my stupid leg so you may have to come see me! Hope you can, the door is always open. :Just Kidding:
Sorry about your leg. I would love to see you and Heidi! We'll make some plans.
Prema-bhakti - January 14, 2011 7:12 am
Prema,
I really appreciate your reply as well. I meant to come back later today to edit my first post to include your name, as you have been great at reaching out to me over the past couple of years and I didn't want it to seem as if I had overlooked that.
We need to definitely get together -- I just broke my stupid leg so you may have to come see me! Hope you can, the door is always open. :Just Kidding:
Sorry about your leg. I would love to see you and Heidi! We'll make some plans.
Swami - January 14, 2011 2:01 pm
The problem I have with this thread is not so much the suggestions of Gopa Kumara (although they also pose some problems), as the false assumptions they seem to be based upon. For example, the only dying devotee in our sangha I know of is Nandatanuja. Our monastics have called him, emailed him, etc. numerous times and one monastic even offered to personally drive down to SJ (4 hours one way) and pick him up for the last festival we held. Similarly the few sadhakas who have fallen away that I know of have been contacted and encouraged other then in very isolated instances in which offensive attitudes on their part were expressed. Furthermore our monastics do not make it a point to make lay sadhakas feel guilty for their shortcomings in the manner I have seen monastics do in other institutions, and others have commented about this to me complimenting our monastics. So the assumptions or worse accusations seem out of touch. Gopa, you need more association . . .
The chicken and fish kindness contrasted with the lack of compassion for fellow sadhakas is way out there. First of all it does not apply in this situation as mentioned above and secondly there many other ways one cold show compassion to fish and chickens than merely refraining from eating them. Why do we stop there? It is also true that there are many ways to show compassion to fellow sadhakas and one has to make wise choices in consideration of time and circumstances. One size does not fit all, and sometimes even apparent neglect may be the best tactic.
Also deleting one's comments after the arouse a strong response is not a fair policy.
Gopakumara Das - January 14, 2011 3:14 pm
I deleted my posts for fear that I had gone too far. I am so sorry that in trying to make a point i exaggerated through use of hyperbole. That was what the dying comment was about, not Nandatanuja. My observations were more subtle than thta and do not warrant such a statement. The chicken and fish comment was meant for all GV in general who I have seen be mean and indifferent to people. Again use of exaggeration...failed. Once I was told I was being offensive and stirring unrest, i reacted strongly again, replied, regretted that, deleted that too as I wanted to minimize how many people would read that and so I wrote you GM to apologize. I apologize to all readers as well. I have embarrased myself. I am glad that I have done so here on TV rather than on Facebook and Harmonist as I have only made myself look bad and arrogant. Although, I hold somoe of my softer opinions, the desperation revealed in my latter points were my pratistha coming out as I wanted to win the argument. I read GM's post that we should participate on TV and I took it to a terrible place. I do need more association, but I may have burned some bridges? Its a shame.... Now I guess I will be testing SCS's forgiveness. No worries...I have always seen a lot of that in all members.
Pratishta lagiya, satya acharana
Lobha hata sada kami
Gopakumara Das - January 14, 2011 3:41 pm
I deleted my posts for fear that I had gone too far. I also knew my comments were already preserved in their posts and in those they had replies. I am so sorry that in trying to make a point i exaggerated through use of hyperbole. That was what the dying comment was about, not Nandatanuja. My observations were more general than that particular example and do not warrant such a statement. The chicken and fish comment was meant for all GV in general who I have seen be mean and indifferent to people. Again use of exaggeration...failed. Once I was told I was being offensive and stirring unrest, i reacted strongly again, replied, regretted that, deleted that too as I wanted to minimize how many people would read that and so I wrote you GM to apologize.
I apologize to all readers who may have been bothered by my posts. I especially apologize to the monks who generously participated in my exaggerated points until they become too strong...and then participated again. I wish that I had the adhikara to take the reprimand as the blessing of the Vaisnavas... I have embarrased myself. I am glad that I have done so here on TV rather than on Facebook and Harmonist as I have only made myself look bad and arrogant. Although, I hold somoe of my softer opinions, the desperation revealed in my latter points were my pratistha coming out as I wanted to win the argument. I read an old post by GM that we should participate on TV and I took it to a terrible place. I do need more association, but I may have burned some bridges? Its a shame.... Now I guess I will be testing SCS's forgiveness. No worries...I have always seen a lot of that in all members as I have recieved it myself....
Pratishta lagiya, satya acharana
Lobha hata sada kami
Madan Gopal Das - January 14, 2011 6:16 pm
For example sannyasa. It is a breath of fresh air to see a lot of sannyasis in their mission, and young ones too! Iskcon tightened up so much and corporatized everything with all their waiting lists and stuff. Its just so uninspiring.
At one point in this thread we were talking about sannyasis. Related article: http://harekrsna.com/sun/editorials/01-11/editorials6946.htm
Guru-nistha Das - January 14, 2011 6:38 pm
Gopa,
as far as I'm concerned (and I'm sure all the monks will agree) you haven't burned any bridges. I felt like I had to respond strongly because the ideas represented started sliding too far from how I'm convinced Guru Maharaja would like to see his mission move forward, but I''m holding no grudge towards anybody who participated in the discussion.
Now that I have calmed down, I can see that I was too heavy handed in the tone of my response although I still stand behind all the points I made. I apologize for the jabs and next time I'll count to ten and do some yoga asanas before I reply. :Just Kidding:
We have to try to work together, that's the bottom line. We came to this sanga for similar reasons, although with different adhikaras, and I think we should certainly do our best to help make it as conducive for practice and service as possible. We want to do the same thing (make progress and serve Guru Maharaja) so there should be no problem. Tattva-viveka is for open, honest discussion, but when engaging in it, we just have to be careful not to impose our attachments on the mission and how we want to see things done.
Nitaisundara Das - January 14, 2011 11:02 pm
Of course no grudge is held here. We are both strong-willed personalities and I am convinced that I have argumentativeness in my paternal bloodline. We can just use the experience to carry on better in the future.
Bijaya Kumara Das - January 18, 2011 5:48 am
Gopa, do you think that GM and any attentive monk does not know that people sometimes have misgivings? Do you think you have presented something new that is too jarring and must be swept under the rug to protect our own faith? Do you think that things said behind our back never make it in front of us? Your wrong. Very wrong.
I think the calm and considerate 3 or 4 pages of this discussion is testament to how open this Sanga, under GM's tutelage, is. That some of us now feel a more forceful approach is prudent does not invalidate what was discussed before.
well said