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Madhurya Kadambini

Nitaisundara Das - January 23, 2011 5:03 am

Spurred by the recent discussion of bhava on facebook and a recent discussion here on TV, I was thinking tonight that we should be having more engaging, enlightening discussions here. So I think we should try to go through some Gaudiya text. This was going on previously with BRS.

I have been reading VCT's Madhurya Kadambini, so that immediately came to mind, but what are others interested in? Perhaps Guru Maharaja has a preference?

I am thinking for realism's sake we should not necessarily begin at the beginning of a book because there is a large likelihood that the effort could peter out. Rather, I think maybe we should pick a section that is most relevant to our immediate progress. In MK, I think that would be sections 1 and/or 2.

Thoughts everyone?

Shyamananda Das - January 23, 2011 4:02 pm

Great idea!

How about the four songbooks of Bhaktivinod Thakur, and the two of Narottama?

Brahma Samhita Das - January 23, 2011 9:08 pm

It would be wonderful!

reading the Bhava discussion on facebook I had a socrates experience (the only think I know is that I dont know)

Hari Bhakti - January 23, 2011 9:46 pm

Great idea Nitai! I'm in.

Nitaisundara Das - January 23, 2011 11:32 pm

Great idea!

 

How about the four songbooks of Bhaktivinod Thakur, and the two of Narottama?

That is a lot to study! The other thing is that books have the benefit of often having commentaries or having been cited in other places that we can then look to for reference. Songs seem a bit more difficult in one sense. But I am open to hearing what everyone thinks. It is really nice ot have a good grasp of the song oyur singing!

Nitaisundara

Citta Hari Dasa - January 24, 2011 3:30 am

If we can find it on line I think a great book (or at least certain sections) to go through would be Dr. Kapoor's Philosophy and Religion of Sri Caitanya. Otherwise in general I tend to lean toward smaller books in a format like this.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - January 24, 2011 5:28 am

If we can find it on line I think a great book (or at least certain sections) to go through would be Dr. Kapoor's Philosophy and Religion of Sri Caitanya. Otherwise in general I tend to lean toward smaller books in a format like this.

Madhurya Kadimbini will be good. IT is available online.

Shyamananda Das - January 24, 2011 10:00 am

Madhurya Kadimbini will be good. IT is available online.

Well, that you say because Nitai is your zonal brahmacari. =D No, of course Madhurya Kadambini would be wonderful. Especially the part about anartha-nivrtti. I haven't read the book myself but my temple president read some sections here and there for me when something inspired him.

Nitai,

Yes, that was part of the idea. To benefit more from singing those songs. Like with the Damodarastaka discussion. But the songbooks are also like...books. Without commentary though, that's true.

Madan Gopal Das - January 24, 2011 1:24 pm

I'm in, and Madhurya Kadambini is relatively short also.

Gauravani Dasa - January 24, 2011 6:16 pm

I'm in too.

Sridama Dasa - January 25, 2011 1:18 am

I'd like to participate as well.

Nitaisundara Das - January 25, 2011 5:11 pm

Well great!

I am excited. I think we should focus on Madhurya Kadambini and perhaps separately we can discuss songs too. How does that sound Syamananda? The songbooks as a whole would be a huge undertaking.

I will try to find a good digital version of MK tonight if I have time. If someone else wants to look that would be great too. I know there is a translation by Sarvabhavana and that is probably the one we should use. I am guessing Kusakratha did one but that would not be as desirable. A very helpful edition is the one with Ananta das Babaji's commentary. We have them here and I imagine some of you have a copy. In the discussions those of us that have his commentary can post relevant parts for others. I also heard there may still be some for sale so I will look into that.

Shyamananda Das - January 25, 2011 9:54 pm

Well great!

 

I am excited. I think we should focus on Madhurya Kadambini and perhaps separately we can discuss songs too. How does that sound Syamananda? The songbooks as a whole would be a huge undertaking.

 

I will try to find a good digital version of MK tonight if I have time. If someone else wants to look that would be great too. I know there is a translation by Sarvabhavana and that is probably the one we should use. I am guessing Kusakratha did one but that would not be as desirable. A very helpful edition is the one with Ananta das Babaji's commentary. We have them here and I imagine some of you have a copy. In the discussions those of us that have his commentary can post relevant parts for others. I also heard there may still be some for sale so I will look into that.

Sounds more than great!

Audarya-lila Dasa - January 26, 2011 3:43 am

Gaura Vijaya - can you please post the link to the on-line version of Madhurya kadambini?

Nitaisundara Das - January 26, 2011 5:37 am

There are still Madhurya Kadambinis with Ananta Das Babaji's commentary available for $15 including shipping (If they are willing to ship overseas it will of course be more money). Email me if you are interested.

Nitaisundara Das - January 26, 2011 6:02 am

I think this is the best digital version available. Translated by a Dina Bandhu dasa.

Visvanath_Cakravarti_Thakura_Sri_Madhurya_Kadambini.pdf

Prema-bhakti - January 27, 2011 12:58 am

Over the years I have read many translations of Madhurya Kadambini and ADB's is by far the best. The commentary is wonderful and comprehensive.

Rasaraja also has them available for purchase. You can email him at robert.j.fish@gmail.com.

Braja-sundari Dasi - January 27, 2011 1:54 am

Over the years I have read many translations of Madhurya Kadambini and ADB's is by far the best. The commentary is wonderful and comprehensive.

 

Rasaraja also has them available for purchase. You can email him at robert.j.fish@gmail.com.

But then how those who are not able to purchase the book can participate? Will anyone offer to type the content for everyone to read?

I know Guru Maharaj gave classes on MK. Would be nice to have them available as well.

Nitaisundara Das - January 27, 2011 4:28 am

Others will just have to do with the PDF I posted and devotees with ADB's can offer up what they see fit. Of course if someone wanted to type it out, more power to them, but then again that person could be doing transcriptions... (shameless plug!)

I was thinking rather than skipping the entire first wave maybe we should try to cover it in like one week, as it has many important points of siddhanta. I was hoping to read it and get some discussion started but I am too busy right now, but if people start reading and posting we can get this show on the road. I am hoping a good format will develop as we go.

Madhavendra Puri Dasa - January 27, 2011 7:05 am

But then how those who are not able to purchase the book can participate? Will anyone offer to type the content for everyone to read?

 

I know Guru Maharaj gave classes on MK. Would be nice to have them available as well.

You dont have to retype it. Someone can just scan it and there are software to make it into word document (for ex. Abbyy fine reader).

Nitaisundara Das - January 27, 2011 3:06 pm

That's true Madhavendra. That crossed my mind but it is a small fat book so to get the page flat will require some rough handling. Still, if someone wanted to do that for the others it would be a nice service. I do not have time nor do I want to abuse my copy

It's also possible that we could buy PDF versions. I can write Rasaraja and Jagadananda and see if they might be open to this.

Nitaisundara Das - January 27, 2011 5:23 pm

Also I am not sure how I personally feel about digitizing their book. But I will contact them and see what happens

Gaura-Vijaya Das - January 27, 2011 11:29 pm

http://www.saragrahi.org/Header%20Links/Ma...ni/Contents.htm

I had read the book before through this website, which does not have the commentary.

Nitaisundara Das - January 28, 2011 1:49 am

I think the PDF is probably better.

Nitaisundara Das - January 28, 2011 6:17 am

I began reading this pdf tonight and I must say that I think it does not really compare to ADB's. The first two paragraphs of the PDF have 10 pages devoted to each of them in the book. There is just way more to work with and a lot more assistance in understanding points and their significance. I really recommend the book. Rasaraja works for Fedex so he can get good oversea shipping rates. I personally do not feel good about the idea of scanning the whole thing, and so far nobody has offered anyway.

Madan Gopal Das - January 28, 2011 2:02 pm

Rasaraja works for Fedex so he can get good oversea shipping rates. I personally do not feel good about the idea of scanning the whole thing, and so far nobody has offered anyway.

I already wrote Rasaraja and he said $15 covers the book and shipping in the US.

Braja-sundari Dasi - January 28, 2011 8:50 pm

I began reading this pdf tonight and I must say that I think it does not really compare to ADB's. The first two paragraphs of the PDF have 10 pages devoted to each of them in the book. There is just way more to work with and a lot more assistance in understanding points and their significance. I really recommend the book. Rasaraja works for Fedex so he can get good oversea shipping rates. I personally do not feel good about the idea of scanning the whole thing, and so far nobody has offered anyway.

Well, that means I`m off

Nitaisundara Das - January 28, 2011 9:53 pm

Well even if you don't have it you can still be here and participate.

Braja-sundari Dasi - January 29, 2011 1:42 am

Of course I will be here. I will benefit anyway. Maybe someone will offer a copy for Madhuvanvasis in future

Prema-bhakti - January 29, 2011 2:38 pm

Of course I will be here. I will benefit anyway. Maybe someone will offer a copy for Madhuvanvasis in future

I'll ask Rasaraja to donate one to the Madhuvanvasis. How could it get to you?

Prema-bhakti - January 29, 2011 2:38 pm

Of course I will be here. I will benefit anyway. Maybe someone will offer a copy for Madhuvanvasis in future

I'll ask Rasaraja to donate one to the Madhuvanvasis. How could it get to you?

Prema-bhakti - January 29, 2011 2:38 pm

Of course I will be here. I will benefit anyway. Maybe someone will offer a copy for Madhuvanvasis in future

I'll ask Rasaraja to donate one to the Madhuvanvasis. How could we get to you?

We paid for the printing and he has some in PDX.

Braja-sundari Dasi - January 29, 2011 3:07 pm

I'll ask Rasaraja to donate one to the Madhuvanvasis. How could it get to you?

Thank you Prem!

It could be send to our neighbour`s address (we don`t have our own mail box yet) or given to someone who is coming here

Prema-bhakti - January 29, 2011 3:11 pm

Thank you Prem!

It could be send to our neighbour`s address (we don`t have our own mail box yet) or given to someone who is coming here

Ok, I'll see what I can do.

Prema-bhakti - January 29, 2011 3:11 pm

Thank you Prem!

It could be send to our neighbour`s address (we don`t have our own mail box yet) or given to someone who is coming here

Ok, I'll see what I can do.

Goloka Dasa - January 30, 2011 1:58 am

Hello Everyone so I am starting off late in this class should I read the PDF or what is happening. (If we want to read together here in Audarya I would be down for that...

P.S. I love these smiling faces

Heres me gardening

and here is me hugging Srimati my favorite cow

Nitaisundara Das - January 30, 2011 6:23 am

Before this thread gets to be 4 pages worth of planning, I thought I would quickly post some of the points brought out in ADB's commentary on the mangalacaran, which in the PDF is the first paragraph. As I went to do that I got sidetracked on the mangalacarana itself and thought a quick review of what they are would be good:

According to GM's Tattva Sandarbha, mangalacaran's typically consist of three elements: namaskara (offering obeisances), vastu nirdesa (identifying the subject of the book), and asirvada (offering or seeking blessings). There it also says that a mangalacarana typically has anubhandas (indespensible elements of vedanta that give the reader a brief acquaintance with the book). Jiva Goswami's Mangalacarana is 8 sections long, whereas VCT in MK is only one verse, so I am not sure that all these elements are present in MK's mangalacarana

This is what they would seem to be to me: The namaskara seems to actually appear in the second section offering respects to Rupa Goswami, who inspired the book. As the verse says, Rupa Goswami has given the wisdom to realize the full extent of bhakti-rasa, which was previously unavailable. The primar way that he did that was through BRS, which is the basis for MK. I think the vastu nirdesa may be best represented in the mention of nava-bhakti, as MK is essentially a guide to the practice of suddha-bhakti. The asirvada takes the form of seeking a blessing and is the statement "May those clouds of the Lord's mercy give satisfaction and pleasure even to this worthless soul, a dried-up tree in the desert."

Nitaisundara Das - January 30, 2011 6:24 am

And of course mangalacarana itself means "auspicious invocation."

Jason - January 30, 2011 5:45 pm

And of course mangalacarana itself means "auspicious invocation."

I will order ADB's book from Rasaraja, but for now I'm going to follow along with Deena Bandhu's.

Does a mangalacarana always have to come first? Just curious. Generally an invocation does come first, but does it have to?

Nitaisundara Das - January 30, 2011 7:18 pm

It would seem like it always comes first (I don't know though) but it is sometimes quite larger and therefore probably blends in more to other text. Like TS's mangalacaran being 8 sections long or CC being 4 verses.

Prema-bhakti - January 30, 2011 8:58 pm

It would seem like it always comes first (I don't know though) but it is sometimes quite larger and therefore probably blends in more to other text. Like TS's mangalacaran being 8 sections long or CC being 4 verses.

I would think so also as it define's the book's objective according to KDK in the CC

Cc. Adi 1.22: “The invocation involves three processes: defining the objective, offering benedictions and offering obeisances.”

Prema-bhakti - February 1, 2011 2:03 pm

What's next Nitai?

Nitaisundara Das - February 1, 2011 3:07 pm

The Mangalacharan of course!

I have been trying to make time to present some of the points that ADB brings out in relation to the Mangalacharan, but I have just been too busy as of yet. But I really don't have any clear idea about how this needs to proceed, if anyone has something to say or thought or question, please put it out there to help move discussion along. Maybe tonight I will have time to do more...

Prema-bhakti - February 1, 2011 6:54 pm

The Mangalacharan of course!

 

I have been trying to make time to present some of the points that ADB brings out in relation to the Mangalacharan, but I have just been too busy as of yet. But I really don't have any clear idea about how this needs to proceed, if anyone has something to say or thought or question, please put it out there to help move discussion along. Maybe tonight I will have time to do more...

Hee Hee. Nitai our fearless study group leader.

At least we should all be made aware of the section we are currently studying so we are moving at the same pace. You could present some points from ADB. Others may also. Then discuss any questions as a group and move on. If you don't have time maybe the other monks can take turns jotting down the main points of ADB. Or anyone who has time and has the book. I know CH has read it before and maybe Nistha too. Just a few suggestions from the peanut gallery.

Madan Gopal Das - February 1, 2011 7:48 pm

if anyone has something to say or thought or question, please put it out there to help move discussion along. Maybe tonight I will have time to do more...

I'm waiting on my copy in the mail from Rasaraj. Will try to participate once I get it.

Prema-bhakti - February 2, 2011 10:59 pm

Ok, I've read through the first chapter and I found a few points interesting.

One thing that struck me was the emphasis on Mahaprabhu being non discriminating in giving out love of god. ADB quotes Prabhodananda Sarasvati to support his explanantion of VCT line, "nirankusa-maha-madhurya-kadambini" No mention of Nitai.

This line by ADB struck me also, "But now that he (Mahaprabhu) is out of our scope of our worldly vision, the attainment of such love once again depends on our own efforts at cultivating devotion." Interesting way to emphasize the importance of nava bhakti, hrd-vapre nava-bhakti-sasya-vitateh sanjivani, in the mangalacarana as well as defining the objective of the book.

Gauravani Dasa - February 3, 2011 12:05 am

Here is a PDF of the book in Italian. Maybe Syamasundara is the only one who can read it

madhurya_kadambini_it.pdf

Braja-sundari Dasi - February 3, 2011 2:45 am

Ok, I've read through the first chapter and I found a few points interesting.

 

One thing that struck me was the emphasis on Mahaprabhu being non discriminating in giving out love of god. ADB quotes Prabhodananda Sarasvati to support his explanantion of VCT line, "nirankusa-maha-madhurya-kadambini" No mention of Nitai.

So what is Prabodhananda Sarasvati`s explanation of Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura`s verse? How does it exclude Nitai? I guess it must be connected to the word nirankusa. what does it mean?

Nitaisundara Das - February 3, 2011 5:20 am

I think nirankusa hear means unhindered. Mahaprabhu's great cloudbank of sweetness is unhindered by anything. What ADB cites is not specifically an explanation of VCTs Mangalacarana, but praman for the point that Mahaprabhu's mercy is causless and independent. PS's Caitanya Candramrta 112:

Lord Gauranga is my only refuge for he bestowed the taste of divine love, which is hard to attain even through devotional practices like hearing, seeing, paying obeisances or meditation, without juding who was deserving and who was not, without discriminating between friend or foe, without waiting an auspicious moment, or without considering whether it should or should not be given.

Those who had never practiced yoga, meditation, chanting of mantras, penance, renunciation, regulative principles, Vedic study, nor followed good behavior—even those who had not refrained from sinful activities—were all blissfully relishing prema, the crest jewel pf all human attainments, due to the sudden appearance of Sriman Mahaprabhu, the embodiment of boundless, concentrated compassion.

Nitaisundara Das - February 3, 2011 5:45 am

Some other basic points in the beginning:

-MK is a wonderful book. It all stems from Rupa Goswami's famous verse mentioning the 9 stages of bhakti (adau sraddha tatah...). It reminds of the Bhagavatam in that it is taking a seed verse and "unpacking" it as GM sometimes says. ADB's commentary further unpacks and thus is the nature of ongoing revelation. A similar book is Bhaktivinoda's Bhaktyaloka, which essentially takes texts 2 and 3 of Upadesamrta and expands on each item there. These two verses dicuss that which destorys bhakti and that which is favorable for bhakti, respectively, so like much of Madhurya Kadambini they are so relevant to unsteady practitioners.

-Speaking about the title, ADB cites Krishnadas Kaviraja's definition of madhurya as the essence of the Absolute (CC 2.21.110). Since Vraja-Krishna is the only form of God that is the embodiment of all rasa in full, he is the full face of madhurya. ADB thus says that MK "is like a bank of clouds whose falling showers consist of Vraja's unique sweetness. A sadhaka can thus be drenched by this sweet rain through immersing himself in its study." That is pretty compelling encouragement!

Prema-bhakti - February 3, 2011 10:35 am

So what is Prabodhananda Sarasvati`s explanation of Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura`s verse? How does it exclude Nitai? I guess it must be connected to the word nirankusa. what does it mean?

Sorry I wasn't very clear Braja.

Thanks for the clarification Nitai.

Gauravani Dasa - February 3, 2011 10:39 am

I think nirankusa hear means unhindered. Mahaprabhu's great cloudbank of sweetness is unhindered by anything ... mahaprabhu rains down mercy on the devotee's heart, what about in Kali yuga when everyone is ignorant and full of desires, how can they attain such fortune? The mangala verse answers that this rain extinguishes the scorching heat of desires.

During a talk in NC, I remember GM saying that Mahaprabhu's influence almost override's the jiva's free will. I think he was speaking in relation to Srila Sridhara Maharaja's "Golden Volcano" book.

Prema-bhakti - February 3, 2011 11:09 am

During a talk in NC, I remember GM saying that Mahaprabhu's influence almost override's the jiva's free will. I think he was speaking in relation to Srila Sridhara Maharaja's "Golden Volcano" book.

Nice!

Braja-sundari Dasi - February 3, 2011 6:29 pm

Thank you Nitai!

Braja-sundari Dasi - February 3, 2011 8:30 pm

Sorry I wasn't very clear Braja.

 

Thanks for the clarification Nitai.

Oh no Prem, thanks for the quotes!

One more thing is interesting to me: how to understand that now we will have to rely on our own efforts in order to attain love of God? I thought inspiration and success in our practice is totally dependent on mercy from above

Prema-bhakti - February 4, 2011 5:04 pm

Oh no Prem, thanks for the quotes!

 

One more thing is interesting to me: how to understand that now we will have to rely on our own efforts in order to attain love of God? I thought inspiration and success in our practice is totally dependent on mercy from above

Here are a few nice points from ADB on this point.

Thus, when Mahaprabhu appeared, he pleased the entire world by giving Vraja preme even to those without the requisite qualifications of sadhana, simply out of his causeless mercy. But now that he is outside the scope of our worldly vision, the attainment of such love once again depends on our own efforts at cultivating devotion. Even so, Mahaprabhu's cloud bank of mercy still nourishes our devotional life, making it easy for the fruit of prema-bhakti to grow and ripen. Thus the author describes this effect, saying that this cloud bank of mercy "rains on the field of the devotee's heart, making the crops of nine-fold bhakti grow".

So then ADB goes on to explain how the chanting is the best method for awakening love of God which was given by Mahaprabhu. Mahaprabhu has given the primary practice of nama sankirtana and therefore this is how he is present. This is how his compassion is showered on the bhakta when he is "outside the scope of our material vision".

Very wonderful section on nava bhakti!!! Explaining with analogy of rains and crops how these nine processes have been infused by Mahaprabhu's compassion to bring about love of god in the heart.

Prema-bhakti - February 4, 2011 5:17 pm

I'd like to hear some further explanation of how in Kali yuga without nama sankirtana none of the other nine processes of devotion can lead to perfection and bestow prema. ADB quotes Mahaprabhu, 'the ninefold bhakti reaches perfection through Nam sankritana.'

So what is the benefit derived from the other processes if one is not chanting or chanting nama abhasa or lower? I never really understood this point clearly.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - February 4, 2011 7:07 pm

What is the time period of ADB's appearance in this world?

Prema-bhakti - February 4, 2011 8:05 pm

What is the time period of ADB's appearance in this world?

He was born in 1927 and is currently the mahanta of Radha Kunda. http://www.krishnacaitanya.com/index.php?page=author

Nitaisundara Das - February 5, 2011 5:48 am

The next verse in MK is an offering of respects to Rupa Goswami. The verse states in previous ages great souls have always taken to bhakti, but now, by the grace RG we can approach bhakti in the form of rasa. Therefore we constantly offer our respects to RG.

In discussing this verse ADB first briefly cites some pramana to establish the supremacy of bhakti (a point that will be addressed in much detail later in the chapter). Here he cites SB 1.6.35 and 2.2.34. Then he cites two verses from CC regarding RG's empowerment by Mahaprabhu: 2.19.1 and 2.19.117.

Next ADB moves to show how before proceeding into rasa, RG has labored to show the scriptural conclusions of what is suddha bhakti, whether vidhi or raga. ADB cites three verses that show a progression of pure devotion. RG cites at least the second (couldn't find the first in a quick search of BRS), and the third is written by RG himself. GM spoke similarly about three verses that relate to each other in a class before he went to Madhuvan and at the end of the class Gurunistha asked for clarification on the point, so some of you may have heard it recently. There the first verse was one from SB whereas here ADB starts with Gopala Tapani.

The first verse is from the Sruti, the most widely excepted conclusive source in the broader Hindu world, being generally considered more definitive than the smrti. The Sruti is the 4 vedas and the Upanishads, Aranyakas, and brahmanas. The smrti is the Puranas and Iti-hasas, as well as the six Vedangas. Jiva Goswami shows in Tattva Sandarbha that in reality the smrti is as valid as the sruti and ultimately moreso, the SB being the culmination (artho yam brahma sutranam (from garuda purana)).

ADB first cites Gopala Tapani 1.15 which discusses bhakti in terms of liberation. Moving deeper, he cites Narada Panaratra's famous verse which is also cited in BRS 1.1.12. This verse brings out the element of bhakti being service to the Lord only for his pleasure (hrsikena hrsikesa sevanam). Finally, RG's own verse from BRS (1.1.11) takes these two and builds on them, defining bhakti as favorable service to the lord that is devoid of any desire for personal enjoyment or liberation. In RG's own verse the word favorable (anukulyena) is key because it highlights that bhakti is not merely thinking of or engaging the body in relation to Krishna. ADB mentions Kamsa, Sisupala, and Jarasandha as examples of people who thought of Krishna constantly, because their mood was not favorable they did not do bhakti. A good example which will be brought up later is Jaya and Vijaya. Wanting Narayana to be able to experience the heroic (vira) rasa, they asked to be allowed to take birth as enemies of Narayana because rasa can only be experienced in relation to devotees with a favorable mood, so true enemies of Narayana did not grant Narayana the chance to actually feel vira rasa, since their mood was not favorable.

The remainder of ADB's commentary on this verse of MK glorifying Sri Rupa explains in brief some distinctions of bhakti and then speaks for some pages about Rupa Goswami's writings and how dear Sri Rupa was to Mahaprabhu, citing verses such as CC 2.19.121, 3.1.56, 3.1.197.

One question that arises in my head: ADB gives Sisupala as an example of someone absorbed in thoughts of Krishna but not favorably. But isn't it the case that Sisupala is one of the 3 incarnations of Jaya and Vijaya? Maybe he is only speaking externally of Sisupala's appearance, or perhaps it is just a mistake. Thoughts?

Gaura-Vijaya Das - February 5, 2011 6:46 pm

The next verse in MK is an offering of respects to Rupa Goswami. The verse states in previous ages great souls have always taken to bhakti, but now, by the grace RG we can approach bhakti in the form of rasa. Therefore we constantly offer our respects to RG.

 

In discussing this verse ADB first briefly cites some pramana to establish the supremacy of bhakti (a point that will be addressed in much detail later in the chapter). Here he cites SB 1.6.35 and 2.2.34. Then he cites two verses from CC regarding RG's empowerment by Mahaprabhu: 2.19.1 and 2.19.117.

 

Next ADB moves to show how before proceeding into rasa, RG has labored to show the scriptural conclusions of what is suddha bhakti, whether vidhi or raga. ADB cites three verses that show a progression of pure devotion. RG cites at least the second (couldn't find the first in a quick search of BRS), and the third is written by RG himself. GM spoke similarly about three verses that relate to each other in a class before he went to Madhuvan and at the end of the class Gurunistha asked for clarification on the point, so some of you may have heard it recently. There the first verse was one from SB whereas here ADB starts with Gopala Tapani.

 

The first verse is from the Sruti, the most widely excepted conclusive source in the broader Hindu world, being generally considered more definitive than the smrti. The Sruti is the 4 vedas and the Upanishads, Aranyakas, and brahmanas. The smrti is the Puranas and Iti-hasas, as well as the six Vedangas. Jiva Goswami shows in Tattva Sandarbha that in reality the smrti is as valid as the sruti and ultimately moreso, the SB being the culmination (artho yam brahma sutranam (from garuda purana)).

 

ADB first cites Gopala Tapani 1.15 which discusses bhakti in terms of liberation. Moving deeper, he cites Narada Panaratra's famous verse which is also cited in BRS 1.1.12. This verse brings out the element of bhakti being service to the Lord only for his pleasure (hrsikena hrsikesa sevanam). Finally, RG's own verse from BRS (1.1.11) takes these two and builds on them, defining bhakti as favorable service to the lord that is devoid of any desire for personal enjoyment or liberation. In RG's own verse the word favorable (anukulyena) is key because it highlights that bhakti is not merely thinking of or engaging the body in relation to Krishna. ADB mentions Kamsa, Sisupala, and Jarasandha as examples of people who thought of Krishna constantly, because their mood was not favorable they did not do bhakti. A good example which will be brought up later is Jaya and Vijaya. Wanting Narayana to be able to experience the heroic (vira) rasa, they asked to be allowed to take birth as enemies of Narayana because rasa can only be experienced in relation to devotees with a favorable mood, so true enemies of Narayana did not grant Narayana the chance to actually feel vira rasa, since their mood was not favorable.

 

The remainder of ADB's commentary on this verse of MK glorifying Sri Rupa explains in brief some distinctions of bhakti and then speaks for some pages about Rupa Goswami's writings and how dear Sri Rupa was to Mahaprabhu, citing verses such as CC 2.19.121, 3.1.56, 3.1.197.

 

One question that arises in my head: ADB gives Sisupala as an example of someone absorbed in thoughts of Krishna but not favorably. But isn't it the case that Sisupala is one of the 3 incarnations of Jaya and Vijaya? Maybe he is only speaking externally of Sisupala's appearance, or perhaps it is just a mistake. Thoughts?

I think your thought about Sisupala should be accurate because even Yudhistara describes that he saw Sisupala getting impersonal liberation. That means it is the externality of Sisupala's appearance, especially because the story of Jaya and Vijaya is given in another section of the SB itself.

Nitaisundara Das - February 5, 2011 7:09 pm

But even the truly inimical demons are considered to get impersonal liberation, or, as in the case of Putana, vatsalya bhakti. So it does not seem to establish the point. A quick google search would verify (but i only have a second) but I am near positive that sisupala and dantavakra are jaya and vijaya in krishna lila.

Prema-bhakti - February 5, 2011 7:12 pm

I think your thought about Sisupala should be accurate because even Yudhistara describes that he saw Sisupala getting impersonal liberation. That means it is the externality of Sisupala's appearance, especially because the story of Jaya and Vijaya is given in another section of the SB itself.

I agree. Here's a quote from CC Adi Lila 5.36

The Supreme Personality of Godhead has all the tendencies that may be found in the living entity, for He is the chief living entity. Therefore it is natural that sometimes Lord Vishnu wants to fight. Just as He has the tendencies to create, to enjoy, to be a friend, to accept a mother and father, and so on, He also has the tendency to fight. Sometimes important landlords and kings keep wrestlers with whom they practice mock fighting, and Vishnu makes similar arrangements. The demons who fight with the Supreme Personality of Godhead in the material world are sometimes His associates. When there is a scarcity of demons and the Lord wants to fight, He instigates some of His associates of Vaikuntha to come and play as demons. When it is said that Sisupala merged into the body of Krishna, it should be noted that in this case he was not Jaya or Vijaya: he was actually a demon.

Nitaisundara Das - February 5, 2011 7:22 pm

so is that to say sisupala was in a sense multiple personalities, or there are different instances of this lila?

Prema-bhakti - February 5, 2011 7:45 pm

This discussion between Maitreya Muni and Parasara Muni centered on whether devotees come down into the material world in every millennium like Jaya and Vijaya, who were cursed by the Kumaras to that effect. In the course of these instructions to Maitreya about Hiranyakasipu, Ravana and Sisupala, Parasara did not say that these demons were formerly Jaya and Vijaya. He simply described the transmigration through three lives. It is not necessary for the Vaikuntha associates of the Supreme Personality of Godhead to come to take the roles of His enemies in all the millenniums in which He appears. The "falldown" of Jaya and Vijaya occurred in a particular millennium; Jaya and Vijaya do not come down in every millennium to act as demons. To think that some associates of the Lord fall down from Vaikuntha in every millennium to become demons is totally incorrect.

It seems like there are different occurances of the lila from this.

Nitaisundara Das - February 5, 2011 7:48 pm

thanks is that quote from the same section of CC I presume?

Prema-bhakti - February 5, 2011 7:52 pm

thanks is that quote from the same section of CC I presume?

Yes, it is.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - February 6, 2011 5:29 am

What Prema bhakti has quoted is Prabhupada's purport and perhaps it is there in some commentary of an earlier acarya. The original text don't show that Sisupala has multiple personalities, but there are different renderings of the same lila. it is like Bhagavat describes many incidents of Krsna Lila differently from the Mahabharata. That does not mean they are from different yugas. They refer to the same story. Rupa Goswami has also indicated what Prema are Nitai are pointing to. I have given the question and answer in which Giriraja Swami mentions this. I am not so sure if same people with same names are born in different yugas and Sisupala is a post like Indra everyone take. Maybe, but there is no way to know this unless someone actually has met Jaya and Vijaya personally and has information from previous yuga cycles.

Devotee: Maharaja, can we see the residents of Ayodhya as being instruments

in that pastime that Lord Ramacandra displayed? Can they be seen as parts of

the Lord’s whole pastime, in which everyone was meant to take part?

Giriraj Swami: We can always see a higher arrangement, but we cannot assume

that they were impelled by yogamaya to find fault. For example, in special

cases some demons in the Lord’s pastimes were actually the Lord’s eternal

associates, but in other cases they were just demons. Rupa Gosvami explains

that Sisupala and Dantavraka in one appearance were Jaya and Vijaya, eternal

associates of the Lord, but in other appearances of the Lord they were just

demons–not eternal associates. We can’t say that all the residents of

Ayodhya were necessarily eternal associates who were being guided by

yogamaya, but we can certainly say that they were fortunate, because, as

citizens of Ayodhya, they got to see the Lord. And in the end they all were

liberated by the Lord’s grace. So we can also see a higher arrangement.

Giriraj Swami: We can always see a higher arrangement, but we cannot assume

that they were impelled by yogamaya to find fault. For example, in special

cases some demons in the Lord’s pastimes were actually the Lord’s eternal

associates, but in other cases they were just demons. Rupa Gosvami explains

that Sisupala and Dantavraka in one appearance were Jaya and Vijaya, eternal

associates of the Lord, but in other appearances of the Lord they were just

demons–not eternal associates. We can’t say that all the residents of

Ayodhya were necessarily eternal associates who were being guided by

yogamaya, but we can certainly say that they were fortunate, because, as

citizens of Ayodhya, they got to see the Lord. And in the end they all were

liberated by the Lord’s grace. So we can also see a higher arrangement.

Narada muni describes the story of Jaya and vijaya and their incarnations here.

Read this section:

http://vedabase.net/sb/7/1/33/en

Nārada Muni continued: O best of the Pāṇḍavas, your two cousins Śiśupāla and Dantavakra, the sons of your maternal aunt, were formerly associates of Lord Viṣṇu, but because they were cursed by brāhmaṇas, they fell from Vaikuṇṭha to this material world.

PURPORT

Śiśupāla and Dantavakra were not ordinary demons, but were formerly personal associates of Lord Viṣṇu. They apparently fell to this material world, but actually they came to assist the Supreme Personality of Godhead by nourishing His pastimes within this world.

SB 7.1.44: Thereafter the same Jaya and Vijaya, the two doorkeepers of Lord Viṣṇu, took birth as Rāvaṇa and Kumbhakarṇa, begotten by Viśravā in the womb of Keśinī. They were extremely troublesome to all the people of the universe.

SB 7.1.45: Nārada Muni continued: My dear King, just to relieve Jaya and Vijaya of the brāhmaṇas' curse, Lord Rāmacandra appeared in order to kill Rāvaṇa and Kumbhakarṇa. It will be better for you to hear narrations about Lord Rāmacandra's activities from Mārkaṇḍeya.

SB 7.1.46: In their third birth, the same Jaya and Vijaya appeared in a family of kṣatriyas as your cousins, the sons of your aunt. Because Lord Kṛṣṇa has struck them with His disc, all their sinful reactions have been destroyed, and now they are free from the curse.

And Yudhistara describes Sisupala merging into body of Krsna before. Clearly from the text itself, it is almost impossible to draw that they are two different personalities.

And here again in 3rd canto the same story is mentioned where this time Jaya and Vijaya are identified as Hiranyakasyapa and Hiranyaksha.

http://vedabase.net/sb/3/16/26/en

The Lord stated that the punishment inflicted by the sages upon the doorkeepers Jaya and Vijaya was conceived by the Lord Himself. Without the Lord's sanction, nothing can happen. It is to be understood that there was a plan in the cursing of the Lord's devotees in Vaikuṇṭha, and His plan is explained by many stalwart authorities. The Lord sometimes desires to fight. The fighting spirit also exists in the Supreme Lord, otherwise how could fighting be manifested at all? Because the Lord is the source of everything, anger and fighting are also inherent in His personality. When He desires to fight with someone, He has to find an enemy, but in the Vaikuṇṭha world there is no enemy because everyone is engaged fully in His service. Therefore He sometimes comes to the material world as an incarnation in order to manifest His fighting spirit.

* I feel SP was writing a lot and not a lot of attention was paid to make a logical consistent presentation if you scrutinize too hard. This happens to best of people.

From the ramanujas. GM has spoken on similar lines that Jaya and Vijaya did not come down from Vaikuntha of Narayana, but a manifestation of Vaikuntha in the material world:

http://www.ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/jun2000/0035.html

Interesting from SP:

Thus He plainly says that it was done with His approval. Otherwise, it would have been impossible for inhabitants of Vaikuṇṭha to come back to this material world simply because of a brahminical curse. The Lord especially blesses the so-called culprits: "All glories unto you." A devotee, once accepted by the Lord, can never fall down. That is the conclusion of this incident.

And in the next verse:

http://vedabase.net/sb/3/16/35/en

Here is clear proof of how a living entity coming originally from Vaikuṇṭhaloka is encaged in material elements. The living entity takes shelter within the semen of a father, which is injected within the womb of a mother, and with the help of the mother's emulsified ovum the living entity grows a particular type of a body. In this connection it is to be remembered that the mind of Kaśyapa Muni was not in order when he conceived the two sons, Hiraṇyākṣa and Hiraṇyakaśipu.

Fall and no fall theory in the same section from SP. Interesting and juicy

Gaura-Vijaya Das - February 6, 2011 5:36 am

http://vedabase.net/sb/7/1/16/en

Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira inquired: It is very wonderful that the demon Śiśupāla merged into the body of the Supreme Personality of Godhead even though extremely envious. This sāyujya-mukti is impossible to attain even for great transcendentalists. How then did the enemy of the Lord attain it?

PURPORT

There are two classes of transcendentalists — the jñānīs and the bhaktas. The bhaktas do not aspire to merge into the existence of the Lord, but the jñānīs do. Śiśupāla, however, was neither a jñānī nor a bhakta, yet simply by envy of the Lord he attained an exalted position by merging into the Lord's body. Certainly this was astonishing, and therefore Mahārāja Yudhiṣṭhira inquired about the cause for the Lord's mysterious mercy to Śiśupāla.

As part of the same conversation, Yudhistara said that Sisupala merged into Lord's body. Later Narada speaks about Sisupala who was Krsna's cousin as Jaya and Vijaya to give a fuller picture.

I don't know why this previous yuga cycle was brought in because from the original text it is clear that the same Sisupala is referred to consistently.

It is like in some place SP said that Rupa goswami is nitya siddha but not sanatana goswami while at some other places he said both are nitya siddhas. Later on one can resolve the contradiction by saying two happened in different yuga cycle. It does not work very well and it is not important. I have to ignore these details.

Swami - February 6, 2011 10:13 pm

I just started reading this. It is interesting to read JG's tika on the verse of Rupa that MK is based on:

"Though there are many steps in the progression of bhakti, the

most common sequence is stated in two verses. In the beginning

(ädau), by hearing the scriptures in association with the devotees,

one attains faith (sraddhä). Sraddhä means trust or confidence.

Then, after faith appears, again association with devotees takes

place (sadhu-saìga), for learning how to practice bhakti. Niñöhä

means continuous bhakti without confusion. Ruci means desire

for the Lord, but with direction by the intellect. Äsakti means

desire, which is natural or spontaneous (without intellectual direction)."

At the end of his Bhagavatam tika on the section in Chapter two where these stages are drawn from (1.2.15-21) VCT lists 14 stages instead of 9.

1. Mercy of devotees

2. Service to devotees

3. Faith

4 Surrender to guru

5. Desire for arcana or hearing

6. Bhakti

7. Clearance of anarthas

8. Nistha

9. Ruci

10. asakti

11. Rati

12. Prema

13. Seeing Bhagavan

14. Experiencing Bhagavan's sweetness

Gaura-Vijaya Das - February 7, 2011 4:36 am

I just started reading this. It is interesting to read JG's tika on the verse of Rupa that MK is based on:

 

"Though there are many steps in the progression of bhakti, the

most common sequence is stated in two verses. In the beginning

(ädau), by hearing the scriptures in association with the devotees,

one attains faith (sraddhä). Sraddhä means trust or confidence.

Then, after faith appears, again association with devotees takes

place (sadhu-saìga), for learning how to practice bhakti. Niñöhä

means continuous bhakti without confusion. Ruci means desire

for the Lord, but with direction by the intellect. Äsakti means

desire, which is natural or spontaneous (without intellectual direction)."

 

At the end of his Bhagavatam tika on the section in Chapter two where these stages are drawn from (1.2.15-21) VCT lists 14 stages instead of 9.

 

1. Mercy of devotees

2. Service to devotees

3. Faith

4 Surrender to guru

5. Desire for arcana or hearing

6. Bhakti

7. Clearance of anarthas

8. Nistha

9. Ruci

10. asakti

11. Rati

12. Prema

13. Seeing Bhagavan

14. Experiencing Bhagavan's sweetness

Does that mean darshan of bhagavan happens only after one achieves prema? Are devotees who see bhagavan before reaching prema are just seeing something on the mental platform? Are the senses of the devotee imbued with prema used to see bhagavan?

Before prema, perhaps people generally don't have external darshan, though in the case of Narada darshan of bhagavan was obtained before his sadhana was complete.

Nitaisundara Das - February 7, 2011 4:58 am

Very interesting list! Does he elaborate on these stages at all, GM? Would this be a correct reading of the additions: #1 refers to ajnata sukrti, #2 to jnata sukrti, #6 to bhajana kriya. Regarding #13 and 14, I know that in the final section of MK it discusses the prema-bhakta's seeing (and hearing, smelling, etc.) of Krishna. Is that what 13 is referring to? That is the final catalyst for the intense longing that culminates in being brought into direct participation in the Lord's lila, which I am thinking corresponds with #14.

This brings up a question about the final section of MK, and that is that the whole section speaks about the "prema bhakta" seeing Krishna and experiencing his qualities and so on, but I was under the impression from what I have heard from GM, that the sadhaka in this world cannot actually contain prema in the body. I feel like I am muddying the language, but is it just a way of speaking about the devotee who's identification with Krishna has intensified beyond bhava but is not yet a premika in the fullest sense of having a siddha deha and being situated in the lila? I also wonder where the notion of taking birth in the prakata lila fits in with VCT's list given here.

Nitaisundara Das - February 7, 2011 5:24 am

Does that mean darshan of bhagavan happens only after one achieves prema? Are devotees who see bhagavan before reaching prema are just seeing something on the mental platform? Are the senses of the devotee imbued with prema used to see bhagavan?

 

Before prema, perhaps people generally don't have external darshan, though in the case of Narada darshan of bhagavan was obtained before his sadhana was complete.

Both MK and Bhajana Rahasya seem to indicate that one only has internal darshan (sphurti) of Krishna after attaining prema and it seems the sphurti is experienced by the sidda deha in the meditation of the sadhaka, if that makes sense.

ADB actually gives Narada as an example, saying that he had attained prema previously in the association of the sages. He then had the darshan of KRishna (#13) and longed for it again, but instead heard a voice saying that Krishna would not reveal his form again in order to increase Narada's longing. Interestingly, the last part of the verse says "The saintly person who hankers for me is gradually freed from all sensual desires." This line either can't apply to Narada or it would seem to contradict his status as a prema bhakta.

These topics are far beyond me in every way but it is good to learn them and I hope I am not making leaps of speculation.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - February 7, 2011 7:56 am

Both MK and Bhajana Rahasya seem to indicate that one only has internal darshan (sphurti) of Krishna after attaining prema and it seems the sphurti is experienced by the sidda deha in the meditation of the sadhaka, if that makes sense.

 

ADB actually gives Narada as an example, saying that he had attained prema previously in the association of the sages. He then had the darshan of KRishna (#13) and longed for it again, but instead heard a voice saying that Krishna would not reveal his form again in order to increase Narada's longing. Interestingly, the last part of the verse says "The saintly person who hankers for me is gradually freed from all sensual desires." This line either can't apply to Narada or it would seem to contradict his status as a prema bhakta.

 

These topics are far beyond me in every way but it is good to learn them and I hope I am not making leaps of speculation.

So external darshan of Krsna is not a possibility then for a sadhaka? And all accounts of Krsna's darshan by beginning sadhakas have to be dismissed as mental imaginations.

Nitaisundara Das - February 7, 2011 12:25 pm

I don't think external darshan would be an accurate term (NM translates sphurti as *internal* vision) and it would seem to me that according to one's realization even just thinking about the form of Krishna can have more or less significance, but it does not seem like a sphurti (which is attained only through Krishna's will) happens to a sadhaka. hopefully GM or others will shed some light.

Prema-bhakti - February 7, 2011 4:47 pm

I was just listening to a class where GM says it is quite possible for a sadhaka to have darsana of Krsna. He didnt elaborate but it was in the context that the desire to see Krsn betrays a sort of misunderstanding of the prayojana of GV. MAybe I don't understand your question but why would you doubt a sadhaka having a vision according to Krsna's will?

Swami - February 7, 2011 5:46 pm

Nitai,

You have a good understanding of VCT's stages. A sphurti is antar darshan. One will have a special antar darshan upon attaining prema, but the sthayi's of Vraja are developed in terms of sneha, mana, pranaya, raga, anuraga, and bhava/mahabhava and this can be developed only in the prakata lila. Hence the need to take birth therein. So this involves the distinction between svarupa-siddhi, and then upon fully developing one's sthayi-bhava in terms of these divisions, vastu-siddhi.

Narada is an example of vaidhi bhakti. So his case is somewhat different. No need to take birth in the lila first before entering Vaikuntha. But I am somewhat surprised at ADB citing him as an example of prema in this instance because JG cites him as an example of the murcchita kasaya mahabhagavata who has not yet attained prema before he gets his svarupa with vina, etc. and a bhagavata parsada-deha-prapta mahabhagavata after he receives it.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - February 7, 2011 7:27 pm

Nitai,

 

You have a good understanding of VCT's stages. A sphurti is antar darshan. One will have a special antar darshan upon attaining prema, but the sthayi's of Vraja are developed in terms of sneha, mana, pranaya, raga, anuraga, and bhava/mahabhava and this can be developed only in the prakata lila. Hence the need to take birth therein. So this involves the distinction between svarupa-siddhi, and then upon fully developing one's sthayi-bhava in terms of these divisions, vastu-siddhi.

 

Narada is an example of vaidhi bhakti. So his case is somewhat different. No need to take birth in the lila first before entering Vaikuntha. But I am somewhat surprised at ADB citing him as an example of prema in this instance because JG cites him as an example of the murcchita kasaya mahabhagavata who has not yet attained prema before he gets his svarupa with vina, etc. and a bhagavata parsada-deha-prapta mahabhagavata after he receives it.

Can the present body even hold prema (just what Nitai asked)? If not, then is there any scope for antar darshan of Krsna for sadhakas before entering prakrata lila?

If I understand correctly, external darshan will only take place during prakrata lila. However, external darshana is supposed to be superior to antar darshan and some devotees see Krsna in the deities. Does seeing the original spiritual form of Krsna in the deities constitute external darshana or internal darshana?

Prema-bhakti - February 8, 2011 12:19 am

Dandavats to Nitai and Gaura Vijaya and all others who can follow this wonderful thread. It is getting a bit technical. May we slow down a bit as we continue to study the text.

Nitaisundara Das - February 8, 2011 7:13 am

Yea I think these tangents will develop naturally but we should make an effort to not go to far off for too long.

Yesterday before seeing GM's post I had actually planned to post more generally one last point of discussion in regard to RG's verse defining uttama bhakti, which is as follows:

The highest bhakti is defined as continuous service

or emotions directed towards Krsna, His expansion forms or

others related to Him, with a pleasing attitude towards Kåñëa.

It should be devoid of desires other than the desire to please

the Lord, and unobstructed by impersonal jnäna, the materialistic

rituals of karma or other unfavorable acts. — BRS 1.1.11

Srila Sridhara Maharaja underscores the need for responsible service and I am pasting the relevant excerpt from Sermons of the Gaurdian of Devotion 2 at the bottom of the page.

So responsible service is able to capture the mind, but that still occurs on different levels. We may be given a responsibility to the mission but our primary motivational force is knowing that someone is going to be coming to us to make sure we are fulfilling that responsibility, thus we are being motivated by fear of reprimand or desire to be recognized or so on. This kind of approach is unavoidable in most of our spiritual lives, to one degree or another. Nonetheless, it is purifying and desirable to be absorbed in any service, granted we are sincerely endeavoring to recognize our ulterior motives in the course of our progress. Elsewhere SSM has emphasized (as has GM) the absolute necessity of honest introspection if we want to make any progress. There are also nuances to these lower motives. For example, one could be absorbed with a truly indifferent disposition, like becoming part of a mission with the conscious intention of establishing a name for yourself to become a guru in due course. But other times, people sincerely believe in the service of guru and Krishna but, for example, they are still bogged down the tama guna. In this case they may still need the motivation of knowing someone is on their tail, but the only reason they are involved in the first place is because of some degree of favorable (anukul) mood stemming from initial sraddha.

A higher form of responsible service comes from genuinely identifying with the service at hand. This is easier when it fits our psychology and conditioning. For (a crude) example, if I think due to my past experiences that making a certain preparation for my guru will please him, it will be easier for me to absorb myself in that than if I were told by someone else to make something that I think is not nice. This is a poor example because it is not too hard to detach from, but there are instances when detaching is extremely hard. Ultimately we must endeavor to make the consideration of what we think is desirable secondary to the importance of simply doing the bidding of sri guru and thereby pleasing them.

But for responsible seva to be anything useful, we have to keep in mind the meaning of seva. SSM defines it nicely as (paraphrasing) something that is desired by the upper realm. "Service according to necessity draws remuneration," he says. So responsibility for "Krishna-related things" is not as desirable as responsibility for those Krishna-related things that are desired by a bhakta with substantial standing. Unfortunately we can see that many devotees do not have a tangible object of service and are therefore left to determine in their mind what is desirable seva. A prominent example of this is the many odd "preaching ideas" that people can have. We may be inspired for a service and present it to sri guru, but we should try to be prepared for any reaction. There is also a place for discussing and weighing the issue with sri guru, perhaps even in some cases firmly disagreeing, but all of this must permeated with reverence and the sincere desire to serve a principle that one should know (having that degree of intimacy with the guru) to be desired by the guru. Guru Maharaja expresses this by saying that if you offer the guru something and he says no, you can ask again. If he says no again, then you let it go. Obviously this principle is far more difficult and nuanced in practice.

So I guess my ultimate point amidst the rambling is that it is extremely important to refine our understanding of what service is while analyzing how much our internal state is rising to that standard. Without this our anukulyena (favorable/ pleasing attitude) will not rise beyond a mental appreciation. Cultivation of the two (a favorable mood and absorption in seva) must go on simultaneously. With these things going on our responsible seva will be as SSM describes it below:

It has been practically experienced that responsible services can help us

from falling prey to lust, anger, etc. Foremost is faith (sraddha) , next is

the association of pure devotees (sadhu-sanga) and deep engagement

with the duties prescribed by the Divine Master (bhajana-kriya) . Deep

engagement is necessary, especially for the mind, not merely the body.

And mental engagement can be attained only by responsibility. Some

responsible service is given to the disciple. He feels weight and it

occupies his brain; he cannot but think about it - the mind is engaged

there, surely. So the mind gets no chance to dwell on lower things. This

is the beauty of deep engagement in responsible Service. In the practical

sense, that helps us a great deal. Then association and Scriptures will

really be of substantial help to us: as Service (pariprasna, sevaya) . As

much as we are able to engage ourselves in deep, responsible services,

the enemies' effect on us will be minimized. They will come and peep,

and will step back saying, "No - no time. He is deeply engaged. He has

no time to give attention to us. He may not be enticed." In this way, they

will have to retreat. Then if they return once, twice, thrice or more - "Oh,

no time. He has no attention to spare for us. He is very deeply engaged -

for Seva ."

Gauravani Dasa - February 8, 2011 1:00 pm

... it is purifying and desirable to be absorbed in any service, granted we are sincerely endeavoring to recognize our ulterior motives in the course of our progress ... it is extremely important to refine our understanding of what service is while analyzing how much our internal state is rising to that standard. Without this our anukulyena (favorable/ pleasing attitude) will not rise beyond a mental appreciation. Cultivation of the two (a favorable mood and absorption in seva) must go on simultaneously.

Wow! I think this is one of the most significant aspects of our tradition: that our ideal is to be purely motivated and we have help from those who are free of mundane motivation (uttama/suddha bhakti). I haven't done a comprehensive study but I don't think you'll find advocacy of this ideal anywhere else.

This ideal directly corresponds with Krishna in Vraja, right? This ideal is not present in Sri Vaisnavism in relation to Narayana in Vaikuntha?

Nitaisundara Das - February 8, 2011 5:21 pm

If I am understanding you correctly then yes I think it only corresponds to Vraja-Krsna. There is still some sense of duty in the Vaikuntha bhaktas and they still refer to their goal as moksa, which is a more jiva-centric than Bhagavan-centric way of looking at it. Even in sense there is distinction within the Vraja-lila in that all the bhaktas other than the gopis can and should openly have love for Krishna (sambandhanuga). This is not the same as having some personal motivation, but it is less astonishing than that example shown by the gopis who, within the external view of the lila, should *not* love Krishna, but they do so anyway (kamanuga).

Along these lines Sridhara Maharaja spoke about the difference between self-sacrifice and complete self-forgetfulness.

I am not sure though if such an ideal might be present in the mystical branches of some other theistic schools. The object of service of course would not be the "medium-sized" cowherd Lord, but still the theoritical ideal of a completely unmotivated devotion could be there, right?

Gaura-Vijaya Das - February 8, 2011 7:01 pm

If I am understanding you correctly then yes I think it only corresponds to Vraja-Krsna. There is still some sense of duty in the Vaikuntha bhaktas and they still refer to their goal as moksa, which is a more jiva-centric than Bhagavan-centric way of looking at it. Even in sense there is distinction within the Vraja-lila in that all the bhaktas other than the gopis can and should openly have love for Krishna (sambandhanuga). This is not the same as having some personal motivation, but it is less astonishing than that example shown by the gopis who, within the external view of the lila, should *not* love Krishna, but they do so anyway (kamanuga).

 

Along these lines Sridhara Maharaja spoke about the difference between self-sacrifice and complete self-forgetfulness.

 

I am not sure though if such an ideal might be present in the mystical branches of some other theistic schools. The object of service of course would not be the "medium-sized" cowherd Lord, but still the theoritical ideal of a completely unmotivated devotion could be there, right?

In Sri Vaisavism also this concept is there though the worship is done in awe and reverence. For example, Ramanuja was prepared to go to hell for the crime of giving the secret mantra to all people. So selfless devotion without jnana or karma can be present in other sects, but without the intimacy present.

And then some Christian get intimate with Christ with the same feeling.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - February 8, 2011 9:00 pm

Anuradha Dooney

Anuradha received her Bachelors Degree in Social Science, from University College Dublin in 1985. Since that time she has travelled extensively in Europe, Russia and India. While in India she acheived a Bhakti-shastri Degree from the Vrindavan Institute of Higher Education. She has taught on various courses during this time and served as the main curriculum writer for religious education courses in the UK and Belgium. Anuradha was awarded her MSt in the Study of Religion, from Oxford University in 2003. Her thesis, an exploration of faith development in Gaudiya Vaishnavism, was entitled, 'Clouds, Creepers and Krishna: The flourishing of faith in Vishvanatha Cakravarti's Madhurya Kadambini.' Anuradha is currently a faculty member of the OCHS Continuing Education Department. She teaches courses in London, Birmingham, Oxford, Cambridge and Leicester. Anuradha has also organised and run interfaith workshops, seminars and conferences internationally.

Nitaisundara Das - February 8, 2011 11:00 pm

In Sri Vaisavism also this concept is there though the worship is done in awe and reverence. For example, Ramanuja was prepared to go to hell for the crime of giving the secret mantra to all people. So selfless devotion without jnana or karma can be present in other sects, but without the intimacy present.

And then some Christian get intimate with Christ with the same feeling.

But we consider this kind of devotion to not be entirely devoid of jnana. It has no jnana in the sense of desire to attain Brahman, but they have the knowledge of Bhagavan as Bhagavan, the majestic. On account of this majesty they have some sense of serving because it is the duty of the soul. This is how I have understood this. The selflessness is a slightly different point as I see it.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - February 8, 2011 11:10 pm

But we consider this kind of devotion to not be entirely devoid of jnana. It has no jnana in the sense of desire to attain Brahman, but they have the knowledge of Bhagavan as Bhagavan, the majestic. On account of this majesty they have some sense of serving because it is the duty of the soul. This is how I have understood this. The selflessness is a slightly different point as I see it.

I meant it is not essential to have unmotivated devotional service perhaps. My point was that they are prepared to go to hell for Bhagavan. However, not in the same sense as the gopis because they are conscious that he is bhagavan and that knowledge does not allow them to frolick over his shoulders or play on equal terms with him. I don't know if you can call it motivated devotional service. Perhaps it is calculated and not spontaneous, hence the word motivated.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - February 9, 2011 1:09 am

I meant it is not essential to have unmotivated devotional service for going to Vaikuntha, but they can be like that to a large extent. My point was that they are prepared to go to hell for Bhagavan. However, not in the same sense as the gopis because they are conscious that he is bhagavan and that knowledge does not allow them to frolick over his shoulders or play on equal terms with him. I don't know if you can call it motivated devotional service. Perhaps it is calculated and not spontaneous, hence the word motivated.

Nitaisundara Das - February 10, 2011 4:56 am

I was just listening to a class where GM says it is quite possible for a sadhaka to have darsana of Krsna. He didnt elaborate but it was in the context that the desire to see Krsn betrays a sort of misunderstanding of the prayojana of GV. MAybe I don't understand your question but why would you doubt a sadhaka having a vision according to Krsna's will?

Just to clarify, I heard from GM about this briefly today and he said a sphurti can occur for the sadhaka, such as hearing the deity talk. It is by Krsna's will so it is certainly possible, as you have said, Prema.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - February 10, 2011 6:29 am

Just to clarify, I heard from GM about this briefly today and he said a sphurti can occur for the sadhaka, such as hearing the deity talk. It is by Krsna's will so it is certainly possible, as you have said, Prema.

So is the sphurti then internal darshan or external darshan? Secondly how to distinguish sphurti from mental imagination. How can Krsna be perceived by material senses? Are the senses spiritual even for a sadhaka so that he/she can perceive Krsna?

Nitaisundara Das - February 11, 2011 5:40 am

My thoughts:

From what I understood from GM, the sphurti can be internal or external, but external I do no think means seeing Krishna like I see you.

As far as distinguishing sphurti from merely the mind, I don't know, but it would seem safe to me to be skeptical. Like SSM said, "If Krishna comes to you in your bhajan and asks you for something you should go to your guru and say, 'Is that who you've been talking about?'" Such and endearing idea.

Material sense cannot perceive Krishna. So even if a sadhaka sees Krishna, I don't think it should be understood to be the same kind of seeing.

Prema-bhakti - February 11, 2011 6:32 am

This is an interesting point about the sadhaka. It is a unique position, as the senses are in a state of active transformation as one is plugged into the current of guru parampara. So it seems by the grace of such current one can experience a darsana of Krsna .

Nitaisundara Das - February 11, 2011 6:56 am

Before I proceed I think for now I am going to frame these sections by introducing the topics and overview of the section but branch off wherever relevant to review various topics that we should learn. So:

ADB has grouped the next 3 paragraphs in the MK PDF, ending with "Raghu Dynasty" on page 3. He has subtitled them "Krishna Descends into the devotee's mind and senses."

These 3 paragraphs cite 4 verses. 2 from Taitariya Upanisad establishing that the supreme truth is beyond Brahman, and that supreme truth is rasa, realizing which the jiva becomes blissful.

To establish that Krishna is the embodiment of rasa (akhila rasamrta murti) VCT cites part of a SB verse illustrating how as Krsna entered the wrestling arena in Mathura others all experienced rasa with him according to their relationship. The full verse describes 10 of the 12 total rasas outlined in BRS. According to Sridhara Swami (not Srila Sridhara Maharaja) the two that are not there are sakhya (friendship) and vatsalya (parenthood). Although the translation in the PDF indicates vatsalya, Sridhara Swami has called the feeling of the parents for Krishna here differently, as karunya rasa explained below.

Sthayi bhavas

The 12 rasas or sthayi bhavas are broken down into two categories of rati: primary (mukhya) and secondary (gauna).

The mukhya ratis are the 5 that we are all most familiar with: santa (peacefulness) , dasya (servitude), sakhya, vatsalya, and madhurya (conjugal love.) Every devotee has one of these as their sthayi-bhava (in the sense of permanent emotion), but in the context of rasa, sthayi-bhava means dominent emotion and these 5 can temporarily become secondary to the gauna ratis.

The gauna ratis are 7 and they arise to assist the mukhya ratis or temporarily become the dominant emotion themselves. They are hasya (laughter), adbhuta (amazement), vira (heroic or chivalrous), raudra (anger), karunya (compassion), bhayanaka (fear), and vibhatsa (disgust). To illustrate an example, in the verse under discussion Sridhara Swami says that Krishna's parents felt compassion for him. Being his parents, their sthayi bhava is vatsalya rati. But at times other secondary ratis augment or become prominent. Here it is karunya. In BRS it is described that Devaki experienced (bhayanaka) fear later when the wrestlers began attacking Krishna.

On the whole, these 12 ratis are one of 5 constituents that combine to create the experience of rasa. All of this is explained in BRS and more concisely in Aesthetic Vedanta. This breakdown illustrates VCT's appreciation of Rupa Goswami as introducing the full face of bhakti-rasa that constituted the previous section of MK (pranams to RG).

END OF TANGENT

The 4th verse cited by VCT is from Bhagavad Gita and affirms Krishna as the basis of Brahman. VCT then highlights that Krishna's descent into the devotee's mind,, heart, and senses is only by Krishna's own will.

In his commentary ADB first goes into a discussion of pramana (evidence). He explains the ten types of evidence and the conclusion that of them, only sabda (revelation) is fully reliable. He briefly discusses the aspect of Krishna's descent. A relevant part follows:

In relation to Gaura vijayas question above, ADB writes that Krishna possess name form and qualities that are purely spiritual. "And yet, the Lord appears of his own unique free will to our human senses, eyes, ears, mind and intelligence. Devotees thus realize the Lord through their internal and external senses. . . [this takes place in the same way as when the Lord descends in the Yadu dynasty] During the prescence of the Lord, eveyrone, not only the devotees, was able to see him directly. None but the devotees could relish his sweetness however, for he appeared as an ordinary mundane person to the worldly-minded non devotees… Thus, though Krishna appears to their vision, their seeing him is as good as not seeing him at all."

Madan Gopal Das - February 11, 2011 3:39 pm

Just got my book yesterday. Psyched! Time for some catch-up...

Gaura-Vijaya Das - February 11, 2011 4:52 pm

My thoughts:

 

From what I understood from GM, the sphurti can be internal or external, but external I do no think means seeing Krishna like I see you.

 

As far as distinguishing sphurti from merely the mind, I don't know, but it would seem safe to me to be skeptical. Like SSM said, "If Krishna comes to you in your bhajan and asks you for something you should go to your guru and say, 'Is that who you've been talking about?'" Such and endearing idea.

 

Material sense cannot perceive Krishna. So even if a sadhaka sees Krishna, I don't think it should be understood to be the same kind of seeing.

Thanks for your point here and the quote of ADB you put. It is hard to distinguish between the perceiving Krsna's spiritual form and mental imagination because the darshan happens with Krsna's own will. So perhaps better to ask the guru.

Secondly I don't understand what are external and internal senses? Do the internal senses include the mind?

Nitaisundara Das - February 11, 2011 5:38 pm

Just got my book yesterday. Psyched! Time for some catch-up...

Bolo! Great!

Jason - February 13, 2011 3:46 am

In his commentary ADB first goes into a discussion of pramana (evidence). He explains the ten types of evidence and the conclusion that of them, only sabda (revelation) is fully reliable.

Just got my copy in the mail. Just read through the thread here thus far. Catching up on ADB's commentary.

I will say this portion (p. 22-26) is straight up GV epistemology and pairs well with the "Theory of Knowledge" class I'm currently taking.

"Pratyaksha: Knowledge perceived through the senses can never be reliable because of the abovementioned four defects of delusion..."

Descartes agrees. At the outset of Descartes' Meditations, the scope of his (hyperbolic) skepticism implies that we can never be sure that we're not in a dream state (maya). Therefore, if I cannot rule out the possibility that I'm only dreaming that I'm typing on this message board, then how can I ever begin to say that I "know" anything of the external world at all? HUGE philosophical problem in the west. One, by the way, that's making a sizable comeback in academia. For a long time, epistemology was sort of viewed as 'old news', but according to a few professors it has some new life.

I'm going to play the skeptic here for a second. "Only sabda is fully reliable." As I understand this, sabda proper may well be apauruseya, but in western philosophy this idea is called "knowledge by testament", and well, just because someone said so opens quite a door for problems. We can recognize that sastra says some pretty incredible things which science has shown not to be the case, and while I'm certainly not advocating for scientism, it seems that sastra as sabda (static) could only be "fully reliable" when coupled with something more dynamic (i.e. guru).

I was thinking, "Well, what about the sabda of Jesus, Buddha, or Muhammad?" At the top of p.26, ADB points to JG's response which seems to work so long as you're a GV

Nitaisundara Das - February 13, 2011 4:59 am

Glad you got the book Jason! Yea, I wanted to post a website that outlines the pramanas but did not readily find one. The wiki entry does not fit this discussion. Interesting points you brought up!

Jason - February 13, 2011 5:44 am

I certainly don't want to take the thread off course, and I'm certainly content moving forward, but 'what counts as justification' is very interesting. Presumably all of us on this forum recognize the authority of Maharaja, VCT, JG, and all the other acharyas we commonly pull from to ground our intuitions and beliefs, and that's great, but it raises other interesting questions about how these teachings (which for the most part I am comfortable subscribing to) may/may not be acceptable to others who do not hold the same means of justification as satisfactory. The more we ground our beliefs in the teachings of previous acharyas, the more we build up a 'web' of beliefs that cohere....for us.

However, it could be easily argued, for example, the knowledge we hold about the unfolding nature of bhakti as outlined by VCT and others in the tradition, is based on a particular context--the context of GV devotees. The beliefs we hold, via the pramanas we accept as authoritative, work for this context. So....the million dollar question...is knowledge context dependent?

Guru-nistha Das - February 14, 2011 3:43 am

I finally got one bigger project completed so I'll have time to participate here.

I'd like to back track a little bit (sorry for the tangent) to page seven where ADB is talking about nava-laksana bhakti. He says, "Only through Nam Sankirtan does ninefold bhakti attain fulfillment."

I have to admit I don't quite understand why singing together with other devotees is so crucial for sadhakas. I understand that in order to spread the name it is essential, but for sadhakas who already have a certain level of adhikara, why is it important to sing in a group instead of doing devotional practices alone? Personally I can certainly get more absorbed in japa and reading than sankirtana. The explanation is quite simple: In sankirtana there are factors that can be distracting and that you can't eliminate. For example, if someone else or myself am off tune, or if I or someone else plays the instruments off tempo, it's extremely distracting for me. At worst it becomes so unbearable that all I feel is frustration instead of bliss or absorption.

So is it really that simple that San kirtana is absolutely necessary for proper advancement in nava-laksana bhakti or are there exceptions to the rule?

Gaura-Vijaya Das - February 14, 2011 4:25 am

I finally got one bigger project completed so I'll have time to participate here.

 

I'd like to back track a little bit (sorry for the tangent) to page seven where ADB is talking about nava-laksana bhakti. He says, "Only through Nam Sankirtan does ninefold bhakti attain fulfillment."

 

I have to admit I don't quite understand why singing together with other devotees is so crucial for sadhakas. I understand that in order to spread the name it is essential, but for sadhakas who already have a certain level of adhikara, why is it important to sing in a group instead of doing devotional practices alone? Personally I can certainly get more absorbed in japa and reading than sankirtana. The explanation is quite simple: In sankirtana there are factors that can be distracting and that you can't eliminate. For example, if someone else or myself am off tune, or if I or someone else plays the instruments off tempo, it's extremely distracting for me. At worst it becomes so unbearable that all I feel is frustration instead of bliss or absorption.

 

So is it really that simple that San kirtana is absolutely necessary for proper advancement in nava-laksana bhakti or are there exceptions to the rule?

It is obvious this will be applicable only for kali yuga, not in other yugas because each of the nine processes are good in themselves to give fulfillment. It looks like the best way for most people, so perhaps there is a stress on this by ADB. I don't know if there is any evidence whatsoever in goswami literature (in sruti or smriti there will be zero evidence to support claim) to support this claim. If this claim is true, any person following other sampradayas is not finding fulfillment. So I don't accept the absoluteness of this claim and I am prepared to go to hell for not accepting the claim.

Guru-nistha Das - February 14, 2011 4:57 am

However, it could be easily argued, for example, the knowledge we hold about the unfolding nature of bhakti as outlined by VCT and others in the tradition, is based on a particular context--the context of GV devotees. The beliefs we hold, via the pramanas we accept as authoritative, work for this context. So....the million dollar question...is knowledge context dependent?

Interesting question, Jason.

My immediate thought was that yes, different spiritual systems give different contexts that we have to work within to reach the goal that the system promises, but at the same time different systems yield different universal, objectively true results and truths. The fact that different theological systems need a context in order to work doesn't automatically mean that they 1) are plagued by relativity or 2) that they are all on the same level ontologically speaking.

I have more thoughts on this but will refrain from sharing them for now in fear of moving too fast.

Shyamananda Das - February 14, 2011 8:37 am

"Only through Nam Sankirtan does ninefold bhakti attain fulfillment."

I remember one lecture where my Gurumaharaj gave a broad interpretation of what sankirtan means. He said it's when devotees cooperate to spread the names of Krishna. One is transcribing lectures, another is proofreading and editing, a third is responsible for layout and design, a fourth is going to the printing press, a fifth is selling the books in the street and inviting people to the temple, a seventh is receiving the guests, then there is a kirtan leader in the temple room and some devotee is giving lectures. Afterwards there is prasadam that another devotee has cooked and which yet another has offred to the deities. Everyone are working in a joint effort.

This can also be applied to situations where outreach is not the main focus, for example in Madhuvan. One is milking the cows, another cooks, a third is pujari, some others are gardening (I'm just guessing).. It's all for maintaining the devotees and create a conducive atmosphere for chanting the holy names, including the personal japa absorption. Devotees living outside the monastic community can also participate by supporting such a monastery, either by donations or seva. Thus everyone takes part in the samyak (complete) kirtana (glorification) of Krishna's name.

This reminds me of Swami's article "Did you see it?" on Harmonist:

"...if we understand ourselves, we will understand that Krishna is the most dear object and learn to love him. Try to do that and thereby love one another. Get used to one another, because no one is going anywhere. We are all in this together, forever and ever."

Prema-bhakti - February 14, 2011 12:02 pm

Thank you for bringing this point up GN. I asked about it in the beginning of the thread.

I agree with GV that it is Kali yuga specific. Prahlada's statement on nava laksana bhakti was made in another yuga. But I have heard others make this statement. I may have read something similiar in one of Gaura G Swami's books.

What does fulfilment mean in this context, Vraja bhakti?

Guru-nistha Das - February 14, 2011 5:52 pm

I remember one lecture where my Gurumaharaj gave a broad interpretation of what sankirtan means. He said it's when devotees cooperate to spread the names of Krishna. One is transcribing lectures, another is proofreading and editing, a third is responsible for layout and design, a fourth is going to the printing press, a fifth is selling the books in the street and inviting people to the temple, a seventh is receiving the guests, then there is a kirtan leader in the temple room and some devotee is giving lectures. Afterwards there is prasadam that another devotee has cooked and which yet another has offred to the deities. Everyone are working in a joint effort.

 

This can also be applied to situations where outreach is not the main focus, for example in Madhuvan. One is milking the cows, another cooks, a third is pujari, some others are gardening (I'm just guessing).. It's all for maintaining the devotees and create a conducive atmosphere for chanting the holy names, including the personal japa absorption. Devotees living outside the monastic community can also participate by supporting such a monastery, either by donations or seva. Thus everyone takes part in the samyak (complete) kirtana (glorification) of Krishna's name.

 

This reminds me of Swami's article "Did you see it?" on Harmonist:

 

"...if we understand ourselves, we will understand that Krishna is the most dear object and learn to love him. Try to do that and thereby love one another. Get used to one another, because no one is going anywhere. We are all in this together, forever and ever."

Shyamananda, I appreciate your points but it seems like in this particular context ADB is talking about sankirtan in a "traditional" sense because with the broad idea of sankirtana that you mentioned most of the limbs of nava-laksana bhakti would be included automatically in sankirtana (like archana, sravana etc.) and there would be no point in differentiating between sankirtan and nava bhakti.

Nitaisundara Das - February 14, 2011 6:38 pm

I agree GN, I don't think ADB is using it like that in this context, although it is a fully valid point and our good fortune that such an expanded idea exists.

I have some ideas for potential harmonization: What if we think of Sankirtan as Shyamananda mentions it in his last sentence as "complete glorification." This is a valid definition and does not necessarily include the "congregational glorification" aspect. Complete glorification means of the nama, guna, rupa, and lila. Certainly familiarity and the natural glorification of these things that would come from that familiarity is indeed essential to attaining prema. Without really knowing sanskrit, in one sense it seems "complete glorification" is more chaste to the sanskrit than "congregational glorification."

But even if we include congregational chanting, GM ties the idea of sam to sadhu-sanga in his commentary on Siksastakam, and in Bhaktivinoda's idea of the Siksastakam covering all nine stages of bhakti and the first verse including them all in a nutshell, the term "sankirtana" is considered to introduce sadhu-sanga. So if we take "sam" to mean sadhu sanga, certainly none of the other limbs of bhakti can give prema without kirtana influenced by sadhu sanga. Thinking about it this way also sheds light on ADB's last line in this paragraph: "Without [nama sankirtan], no one gets the impetus to engage in any other devotional practice," because sadhu sanga is foundational to any level of bhakti, even initial sraddha.

Guru-nistha Das - February 14, 2011 6:48 pm

Very nice points, Nitai!

I was waiting for somebody to bring up the point that Sankirtana needs to be performed in the company of suddha-bhaktas in order for it to be truly effective, and I'm sure this was ADB's idea as well.

But the question remains still, why not just say that for nava bhakti to be effective it requires sadhu sanga? Wouldn't the nine practices be effective even without sankirtana if they are done under a sadhu?

Nitaisundara Das - February 14, 2011 7:57 pm

Wouldn't the nine practices be effective even without sankirtana if they are done under a sadhu?

Perhaps not in Kali-yuga, but otherwise yes? Or perhaps in relation to other sadhyas (vaidhi bhakti), but not in relation to prema?

Gaura-Vijaya Das - February 14, 2011 9:08 pm

Perhaps not in Kali-yuga, but otherwise yes? Or perhaps in relation to other sadhyas (vaidhi bhakti), but not in relation to prema?

Do Vallabas not have prema?

And they dont perform sankirtan in the strict sense.

Guru-nistha Das - February 14, 2011 9:31 pm

I thought the Vallabhas do sankirtan too, no?

Nitaisundara Das - February 14, 2011 9:49 pm

Isn't the famous kirtaniya Shyamadas a Vallabhi?

Gaura-Vijaya Das - February 14, 2011 9:49 pm

I thought the Vallabhas do sankirtan too, no?

In the general sense, yes. Even ramanujas recite visnu sahastranam and other prayers together in congregation. Will you call that sankirtan?

Guru-nistha Das - February 14, 2011 10:03 pm

Well isn't Ramanujas reciting mantras a little different than another ragamarga sampradaya using similar instruments than Gaudiyas and singing about Krsna together?

Nitaisundara Das - February 14, 2011 10:06 pm

Well what is the strict sense you were reffering to? But regardless, I posed the idea as a question/possibility with no logical or scriptural support, so unless more support is given, I don't think it warrants so much exploration.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - February 14, 2011 10:10 pm

Well what is the strict sense you were reffering to? But regardless, I posed the idea as a question/possibility with no logical or scriptural support, so unless more support is given, I don't think it warrants so much exploration.

Nagar sankirtan, I thought or chanting on the streets. Otherwise even impersonalists and yogis have kirtans sometimes with everyone participating.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - February 14, 2011 10:12 pm

Well isn't Ramanujas reciting mantras a little different than another ragamarga sampradaya using similar instruments than Gaudiyas and singing about Krsna together?

Well I don;t know. Ramanujas chant prayers together. Don't know if that can be called sankirtan.

Prema-bhakti - February 14, 2011 10:42 pm

Yes, Shyam das is a vallabhi but my understanding is that they emphasize seva to the deity not arcana as they are a raga marga sampradaya.

Braja-sundari Dasi - February 14, 2011 11:27 pm

The explanation is quite simple: In sankirtana there are factors that can be distracting and that you can't eliminate. For example, if someone else or myself am off tune, or if I or someone else plays the instruments off tempo, it's extremely distracting for me. At worst it becomes so unbearable that all I feel is frustration instead of bliss or absorption.

 

So is it really that simple that San kirtana is absolutely necessary for proper advancement in nava-laksana bhakti or are there exceptions to the rule?

I don`t know if it is necessary for everyone but... Is our mind not the main factor? I participated in kirtans where leader didn`t have a good voice and did not play mridanga very well but kirtan was out of this world. And there were many kirtans in my life where leaders were not inspiring although they were singing nicely and were professional musicians. I love your kirtans Gurunistha, so please do not give up leading them!

I`ve heard that Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati would sometimes for purpose play off tempo or sing off tune just to bring people`s attention back to maha mantra. Singing together we are forced to pronounce properly at least while chanting japa one may mumble something and not realize his mind is going somewhere else.

Shyamananda Das - February 16, 2011 11:16 am

But the question remains still, why not just say that for nava bhakti to be effective it requires sadhu sanga? Wouldn't the nine practices be effective even without sankirtana if they are done under a sadhu?

I guess that in our school a sadhu means someone who acknowledges samyak nama kirtan to be the main practice, around which everything else revolves. Thus service to such a sadhu and his/her community is equal to sankirtan (by connection), whatever shape it takes.

My Gurumaharaj has said that out of sambandha-, abhideya- and prayojana-jnana the first is the most important, because it involves the science of one's relationship to other vaishnavas, without which one will get nowhere. In this light, I take the freedom to interpret sankirtan to mean meditation (mental or verbal) on Krishna's name built on proper sambandha-jnana.

Once Srila Bhakti Promode Puri Maharaj was asked what his realizations were, after 70 years of nama japa. He answered: "That I'm nothing without the vaishnavas".

Gaura-Vijaya Das - February 16, 2011 10:13 pm

Don't want to go off topic, but this passage hints that the darshan even at bhava stage is not exactly the same as sphurti of the spiritual form:

kadApi tadIya-sphUrtau taM sAkSAt prAptavad iva ceto hRSyet,

tan-mAdhuryAsvAda-sampattyA mAdyet,

tadaiva tat-tirobhAve viSIdet,

glAyed ity evaM saJcAri-bhAvair

AtmAnam alaGkurvad iva zobheta.

Sometimes he has hallucinations of Krishna

and thinks that he has directly attained him,

which fills him with uncommon pleasure,

intoxicating him with the rich taste of the Lord’s sweetness.

But on the disappearance of this sensation,

he is plunged into depression and lassitude.

Are the darshans up to the bhava stage positive hallucinations?

Guru-nistha Das - February 19, 2011 3:58 am

Nitai asked me to be the substitute teacher for the next section of Madhurya Kadambini since he is busy but wants the thread to move forward nonetheless.

So far we have gone through the Mangalacharana verse, the verse glorifying Rupa Goswami, and a section of the first chapter that establishes Krishna as the highest reach of transcendence and thus the embodiment of all rasas. The section ends with an explanation of how Krishna descends without a cause. This leads us to the topic of the next section, whcih ADB names,

"Like Krishna, Bhakti is completely independent"

In the Madhurya Kadambini PDF the section starts from the sentence, "The Lord is not dependent on any material cause for his appearance" and ends in, "The meaning of yadriccha in the dictionary is also 'complete independence'"

VCT makes the point that just as Krishna descends into his devotee's senses without a cause and completely independently, similarly does BHakti Devi. VCT uses three verses from the bhagavatam as pramana to prove this point.

The first pramana is the famous sa vai pumsam... -verse (1.2.6) that places causeless and uninterrupted bhakti as the highest form of religious attainment. The two other verses are from the Uddhava-gita section of the Bhagavatam (11.20.8 & 11.20.11) where Krsihna says that one can by chance or by luck attain devotion.

The common thread in these verses is the idea of bhakti's independent and causeless nature. VCT points out that the word "yadricchaya", which is translated "spontaneously, accidentally, suddenly, fortuitously, or by chance" is used in several places in the Bhagavatam to describe Bhakti Devi's way of descending.

ADB starts his commentary by citing a verse from Gopala-Tapani Upanisad (2.78) which likens Krishna's qualities to those of bhakti. After establishing this important similarity, he cites the anuccheda 65 of Jiva GOswami's Priti-Sandarbha. There Sri Jiva highlights bhakti's extraordinary quality of being able to overwhelm Svayam Bhagavan Krishna himself.

In the course of explaining how this is possible, he informs us that bhakti is Krishna's internal pleasure-giving potency, the hladini-shakti, by which the Lord is capable of experiencing the joy of his being. The same shakti also enables the devotees to feel the same joy in relation to Krishna.

I would be interested to see if we can come up with other pramana for bhakti's independent nature. They can be either verses from scripture or sadhus' statements.

Nitaisundara Das - February 19, 2011 5:29 am

bhaktya sanjataya bhaktya (bhakti is awakened by bhakti) SB 11.3.31

Gaura-Vijaya Das - February 19, 2011 6:29 am

Good discussion. Bhakti descends cause lessly and only by bhakti krsna can be known 18.55 B.G "bhaktya mam abhijanati".

At the same time 4.11 indicates that Bhagavan/Paramatama reciprocates with a soul as the soul surrenders unto him. I guess once bhakti has descended, there is some free will in the jiva to co-operate with it. CC "bhagyavan jiva" also indicates the causeless nature of bhakti descending. So we can say that the descent of bhakti is a random descent and the jiva is blame less because that random luck of the draw has not descended on many jivas who are engaged in karma, jnana or yoga. There is nothing a jiva can do to attract bhakti, so they have to choose knowledge or sense gratification more or less.

Guru-nistha Das - February 21, 2011 3:28 am

Another verse that came to my mind that supports the independent nature of bhakti:

Sri Siksastakam, verse 4:

Na dhanam na janam na sundarim kavitam va jagadisa kamaye mama janmani jamanisvare bhavatad bhaktir ahaituki tvay.

Hari Bhakti - February 21, 2011 4:07 am

Guru-nistha - I'm curious how you would use this verse to support the independent nature of bhakti? I'm not contesting it, just curious to hear how you would use the verse in support of this concept.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - February 21, 2011 7:38 am

Another verse from the sruti, the Katha Upanishad that the bhakti schools use:

Chapter 2.23

nᾱyam ᾱtmᾱ pravacanena labhyo na medhayᾱ, na bahunᾱ śrutena:

yamevaiṣa vṛṇute tena labhyas tasyaiṣa ᾱtmᾱ vivṛṇute tanῡṁ svᾱm. (23)

Translation: This self cannot be grasped by teaching or by intelligence or by great learning. Only the man he chooses can grasp him. To such a one Atman reveals Its own form.

This is a very famous, often quoted verse: “Not by speech can He be known; not by the intellect, not even by hearing.” Speech returns baffled. Who expresses speech? The Atman! Who can express the Atman? Even rationality, His partial expression through the buddhi which is a modification of prakriti, cannot express Him. Frail is the intellect when it tries to stretch itself beyond its limits. As a person who cuts the branch on which he sits will fall down, he who tries to know the Atman through the intellect will break. All the faculties of the human mind break down when they try to turn towards the Atman. “He is known only by him whom He chooses.” If God chooses, you may know; otherwise not. This is the interpretation of the Bhakti School. It is God’s grace that He gives you darshan. By a miracle taking place, you can see God; not by ordinary effort.

But Sankara’s interpretation is unique: It is not that someone chooses, because, for Sankara, that someone does not exist to choose. His understanding of this part of the mantra is: “He is beheld only by That which is the seeker himself.” That which you behold is within yourself, is the meaning. Who is the seeker? Is he outside the Atman? God is the prompter even behind the seeker. Sadhana is not possible without Him. Rather than from without, the choice has to come from within. The seeker and the sought are one.

The sought or God is not outside the seeker, choosing him arbitrarily; if it were so, we would have to attribute partiality to Him. Reality is one, and on the basis of this doctrine, Sankara opines that Self-knowledge is an inexplicable wonder: it arises—that is all. It is not caused by the jiva, because he has no freedom. But, if God is the cause, what conditions does He impose? If you say it is the jiva’s karmas, you limit His power; so even that is not a satisfactory explanation. Hence, either you accept that God’s ways are mysterious, ununderstandable, or knowledge is a miracle, and when you say miracle, you cannot say anything. By the passage of time, by the fructification of good deeds, by the process of the universe, by the grace of God—by a mysterious combination of all these factors which the jiva cannot understand, God is revealed. When He reveals Himself, the person (jiva) is no more. God reveals Himself to Himself. It is not an end reached by the effort of human personality.

The whole difficulty is expressed in a single statement: the Atman is the subject, not the object. Thus, He cannot be manipulated by an instrument. Speech, mind and intellect are signified by the terms pravacanena medhaya. Speech is indicative of all senses. So, not through them, not through the mind, not through the intellect can the Atman be realised, because these faculties have a tendency to move outward. They catch the object, not the subject. The mind never catches the mind. Both the mind and intellect work on the dictate of the senses which are untrustworthy, concluding that all reality is confined to phenomena. Any description of the Atman is given by them, and they cannot conceive of anything other than objects.

This mystery of atmasakshatkara is given in the second half of the verse. The Atman chooses the Atman. God chooses God. It is Self-efflorescence. To such a fortunate being who has so withdrawn himself into himself that he is indistinguishable from the Supreme Subject, to such a one is the Atman revealed—not by process, but instantaneously. It is a timeless flash of a sudden consciousness which is called atmasakshatkara. It comes by the maturity of one’s sadhana. The links of this process are indescribable. The last occurrence is such that it cannot be regarded as an effect of all the preceding ones, though it comes as a result of these. It is beyond the causational process.

Swami - February 21, 2011 1:48 pm

Hari-bhakti,

Gurunistha highlighted the words ahaituki. This is often understood to mean "without motive." But it also means "causeless." This is how VCT understadns to word inthe famoud Bhagavata verse defining bhakti, sa vai pumsam paro dharma . . . ahaituki apratihata yayatma suprasidati. In this latter sense the word speaks of bhakti's independence. She has no cause other than herself. In the verse cited Mahaprabhu is praying for this causeless bhakti.

Hari Bhakti - February 22, 2011 3:54 am

Thank you for the explanation Guru Maharaja.

Could we then use CC Madhya-lila 19.172 to support bhakti as independent?

lakṣaṇaḿ bhakti-yogasya

nirguṇasya hy udāhṛtam

ahaituky avyavahitā

yā bhaktiḥ puruṣottame

Guru-nistha Das - February 22, 2011 4:19 am

THat's a nice verse, Hari-Bhakti.

Srila Prabhupada says the following in his purport to that verse (SB 3.29.12):

The word ahaitukī means "without reason." A pure devotee does not render loving service to the Personality of Godhead for any cause or for any benefit, material or spiritual. This is the first symptom of unalloyed devotion. Anyābhilāṣitā-śūnyam: [Madhya 19.167] he has no desire to fulfill by rendering devotional service.

So it seems like he considers the word ahaituki from the perspective of practice/practitioner, but I'm sure it can also mean in this context that ahaituki is a quality of Bhakti Devi.

Prema-bhakti - February 22, 2011 2:12 pm

In Bhakti sandarbha Jiva Goswami cites the api cet sudaracaro verse and the story of Ajamila to support the independent nature of bhakti.

Prema-bhakti - February 23, 2011 12:21 am

In Bhakti sandarbha Jiva Goswami cites the api cet sudaracaro verse and the story of Ajamila to support the independent nature of bhakti.

The explanation involving Ajamila is very interesting. Jiva Goswami demonstrates how bhakti in general is not even dependent on sraddha. "This sraddha is part of the ascertainment of the subject propounded in scripture because to have faith in the meaning of scripture is sraddha. Therefore, it is not part of the actual practice of bhakti [and as such in general does not depend on it]. Furthermore, bhakti does not depend on any ordinance of scripture to bring forth its fruit, just as fire's power to burn is not dependent on anyone's conviction that it will do."

"This means that the activities of bhakti, such as hearing and singing about the Lord, have the potency to act inherent in their very nature. Therefore, how can bhakti be dependent on sraddha?"

Prema-bhakti - February 23, 2011 12:30 am

Shyamananda, I appreciate your points but it seems like in this particular context ADB is talking about sankirtan in a "traditional" sense because with the broad idea of sankirtana that you mentioned most of the limbs of nava-laksana bhakti would be included automatically in sankirtana (like archana, sravana etc.) and there would be no point in differentiating between sankirtan and nava bhakti.

Here is something from Bhakti Sandarbha. "It is not necessary to perform all nine types of bhakti, because scriptures have declared that even by the execution of one of the limbs of bhakti, the fruit is achieved without exception. Sometimes devotees combine more than one type of devotion because of individual inclination and liking."

"Thus by the adjectival compound nava-laksana, "of nine types," bhakti in general is referred to, and it should be understood that bhakti alone is thereby ordained. When bhakti is spoken of as having nine limbs, it means that all other limbs of devotion are included within these nine."

These statements seems to contradict what ADB has written.

Guru-nistha Das - February 23, 2011 3:36 am

The explanation involving Ajamila is very interesting. Jiva Goswami demonstrates how bhakti in general is not even dependent on sraddha. "This sraddha is part of the ascertainment of the subject propounded in scripture because to have faith in the meaning of scripture is sraddha. Therefore, it is not part of the actual practice of bhakti [and as such in general does not depend on it]. Furthermore, bhakti does not depend on any ordinance of scripture to bring forth its fruit, just as fire's power to burn is not dependent on anyone's conviction that it will do."

 

"This means that the activities of bhakti, such as hearing and singing about the Lord, have the potency to act inherent in their very nature. Therefore, how can bhakti be dependent on sraddha?"

Hmm, this is a tad confusing to me. I've heard it said several times that devotional activities done inattentively yield very meager results. This would strongly suggest that bhakti's influence is not fully comparable to fire's power to burn. Or maybe it could be thought that fire will burn even an unconscious man, he just won't feel it.

Tadiya Dasi - February 23, 2011 9:52 am

The explanation involving Ajamila is very interesting. Jiva Goswami demonstrates how bhakti in general is not even dependent on sraddha. "This sraddha is part of the ascertainment of the subject propounded in scripture because to have faith in the meaning of scripture is sraddha. Therefore, it is not part of the actual practice of bhakti [and as such in general does not depend on it]. Furthermore, bhakti does not depend on any ordinance of scripture to bring forth its fruit, just as fire's power to burn is not dependent on anyone's conviction that it will do."

 

"This means that the activities of bhakti, such as hearing and singing about the Lord, have the potency to act inherent in their very nature. Therefore, how can bhakti be dependent on sraddha?"

But didn't Ajamila have faith (sraddha) in the beginning of his life? Wasn't his case more like losing faith and getting distracted on the course of his life? He did name his child 'Narayana' and was collecting flowers for the puja for the Lord when he got side tracked by the sight of the prostitute if memory serves me...So it seems he must have had some sort of faith in God.

This reminds me of something I saw Guru Maharaja say in Facebook (something good can come out of FB ): That the yamadutas will not come to collect any devotees - not even the fallen devotees - at the time of death. As was the case with Ajamila...

Swami - February 23, 2011 11:09 am

Despite Ajamila's previous faith, at the time he chanted he did not chant with faith but only to call his son. The idea is that chanting is svarupa-siddha bhakti. So chanting Harinama gives results regardless of one's faith or understanding. Just how much bhakti acts or "burns" is also up to her. In Ajamila's case it was considerable, but it may nor be so in all cases. It's up to her. The idea to come away with is that if she has such power to act, how much more will she be inclined to do so if I pay attention, etc.

Prema-bhakti - February 23, 2011 11:09 am

First, I probably shouldn't have used the word "story" of Ajamila. But Ajamila is quoted as an example. "Even Ajamila attained the abode of Lord Hari by chanting the Lord's name to address his son while on the verge of death, so what to speak of one who chants his name with faith." SB 3.25.25

In terms of the fire example, I understood it to indicate that just as the power to burn is inherent in fire whether one believes it or not so bhakti has the power to act whether one has faith.

One main point is that Jiva Goswami makes a distinction between bhakti in general and ananya bhakti which cannot be undertaken without faith. This is a key point. He quotes the above verse and SB 3.25.25 as pramana. He says, "Both of the above statements allude to Bhakti's power to deliver results even prior to the manifestation of sraddha.

Prema-bhakti - February 23, 2011 11:18 am

Jiva Goswami also cites the Prabhasa-kanda of the Skanda Purana, "O best of the Bhrugu dynasty, if Lord Krsna's name is chanted even once, wth faith or even with contempt, it delivers a human being." JG comments, "Thus sometimes it seems that even foolish beings have achieved the result of bhakti even without sraddha. This is also understood by the above statement in which it was said that the Lord's name delivers a human being even if chanted with contempt."

He qualifies his statement by saying, "Although contempt toward's the Lord's name is an offense, if it is expressed unconsciously, it does not obstruct the bhakti because there is no insincerity of heart involved."

Prema-bhakti - February 23, 2011 2:34 pm

In terms of the fire example, I understood it to indicate that just as the power to burn is inherent in fire whether one believes it or not so bhakti has the power to act whether one has faith.

In answer to GN's question as GM stated in his response how much bhakti acts is all up to her. How much she acts may have no bearing on the measure of one's faith as in the case of Ajamila.

Guru-nistha Das - February 23, 2011 4:48 pm

First, I probably shouldn't have used the word "story" of Ajamila. But Ajamila is quoted as an example. "Even Ajamila attained the abode of Lord Hari by chanting the Lord's name to address his son while on the verge of death, so what to speak of one who chants his name with faith." SB 3.25.25

 

In terms of the fire example, I understood it to indicate that just as the power to burn is inherent in fire whether one believes it or not so bhakti has the power to act whether one has faith.

 

One main point is that Jiva Goswami makes a distinction between bhakti in general and ananya bhakti which cannot be undertaken without faith. This is a key point. He quotes the above verse and SB 3.25.25 as pramana. He says, "Both of the above statements allude to Bhakti's power to deliver results even prior to the manifestation of sraddha.

Here's the SB verse and translation by Srila Prabhupada:

satāḿ prasańgān mama vīrya-saḿvido

bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ

taj-joṣaṇād āśv apavarga-vartmani

śraddhā ratir bhaktir anukramiṣyati

In the association of pure devotees, discussion of the pastimes and activities of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is very pleasing and satisfying to the ear and the heart. By cultivating such knowledge one gradually becomes advanced on the path of liberation, and thereafter he is freed, and his attraction becomes fixed. Then real devotion and devotional service begin.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - February 23, 2011 5:03 pm

Here's the SB verse and translation by Srila Prabhupada:

 

satāḿ prasańgān mama vīrya-saḿvido

bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ

taj-joṣaṇād āśv apavarga-vartmani

śraddhā ratir bhaktir anukramiṣyati

 

In the association of pure devotees, discussion of the pastimes and activities of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is very pleasing and satisfying to the ear and the heart. By cultivating such knowledge one gradually becomes advanced on the path of liberation, and thereafter he is freed, and his attraction becomes fixed. Then real devotion and devotional service begin.

Given that Ajamila did perfect his next life in haridwar, it seems like prema needs some kind of perfection and namabhasa delivers liberation, but not prema However, like in Ajamila's case even accidental chanting helped him to avoid the normal karma that he would have been entitled too. Won't a devotee have to perfect himself in bhauma lila eventually with sraddha? It seems strange that someone who does not have faith in Krsna will suddenly be thrown into Goloka without any sraddha. This will contradict 4.11 BG somewhat because the person did not actually surrender or have any desire to go to Goloka in the first place.

Citta Hari Dasa - February 23, 2011 5:07 pm

Given that Ajamila did perfect his next life in haridwar, it seems like prema needs some kind of perfection and namabhasa delivers liberation, but not prema However, like in Ajamila's case even accidental chanting helped him to avoid the normal karma that he would have been entitled too. Won't a devotee have to perfect himself in bhauma lila eventually with sraddha? It seems strange that someone who does not have faith in Krsna will suddenly be thrown into Goloka without any sraddha. This will contradict 4.11 BG somewhat because the person did not actually surrender or have any desire to go to Goloka in the first place.

I don't think that's what Jiva Goswami is saying. Bhakti acting whether one has faith or not is one thing, attaining a place in Goloka quite another.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - February 23, 2011 6:20 pm

I don't think that's what Jiva Goswami is saying. Bhakti acting whether one has faith or not is one thing, attaining a place in Goloka quite another.

Jiva Goswami also cites the Prabhasa-kanda of the Skanda Purana, "O best of the Bhrugu dynasty, if Lord Krsna's name is chanted even once, wth faith or even with contempt, it delivers a human being." JG comments, "Thus sometimes it seems that even foolish beings have achieved the result of bhakti even without sraddha. This is also understood by the above statement in which it was said that the Lord's name delivers a human being even if chanted with contempt."

1) What does he mean by deliver the human being: impersonal liberation? If yes, what is the need to block the person's potential to serve bhagavan in the spiritual realm and send him to sayugya mukti? What is the result of bhakti without sraddha as spoken above in the verse? I think BVT said without proper sambandha jnana, harinama does not yield the desired result. Why not, if even chanting without faith gives the full fruit of bhakti, why there is the need of sambandha jnana? It is helpful sometimes, not always as was the case with illiterate people of times bygone.

This is my first point.

2) Fallen devotees may not see yamadutta, but devotees can be sent to hell as part of Krsna's lila. Also if bhakti and Krsna are independent how are we so sure the fallen devotees will surely not see yamaduttas. We can say generally it is true, but Krsna and bhakti are not compelled to do anything.

3) The jiva souls in this material world are completely blameless because they could not do anything to attract bhakti (bhakti is independent). They will always in sristi lila and they can only function under the three modes and keep on rotating between those modes. There is nothing they could have done better in sristi lila. Whenever bhakti will descend, they can do something. Till then, all the so called demons, offensive people are blame less. Bhakti is just not descending on them.

4) Bhagavat Maharaja made a point about nagar sankirtana and Syamu opposed it on the ground that it will not bring a good name to GV. What is the need to be worried about it because even if they have contempt for the name when they listen from "hippie" naked devotees (Syamu said), they will get the full result of bhakti.

Overall I see the huge similarity between bhakti and the protestant Christianity idea that "faith and faith alone is necessary" and they reject the idea that "faith without works is dead". Whatever you do if you believe in Jesus and his resurrection, you will go to heaven (equivalent to not seeing yamaduttas). Don't understand SP criticism of Christians who do not follow the teachings because anyway they will be delivered. In one sense, BSST correcting GV was not necessary in some ways because any kind of chanting can give the results. Pretty interesting!

Swami - February 23, 2011 11:31 pm

Jiva Goswami also cites the Prabhasa-kanda of the Skanda Purana, "O best of the Bhrugu dynasty, if Lord Krsna's name is chanted even once, wth faith or even with contempt, it delivers a human being." JG comments, "Thus sometimes it seems that even foolish beings have achieved the result of bhakti even without sraddha. This is also understood by the above statement in which it was said that the Lord's name delivers a human being even if chanted with contempt."

 

1) What does he mean by deliver the human being: impersonal liberation? If yes, what is the need to block the person's potential to serve bhagavan in the spiritual realm and send him to sayugya mukti? What is the result of bhakti without sraddha as spoken above in the verse? I think BVT said without proper sambandha jnana, harinama does not yield the desired result. Why not, if even chanting without faith gives the full fruit of bhakti, why there is the need of sambandha jnana? It is helpful sometimes, not always as was the case with illiterate people of times bygone.

This is my first point.

 

Deliverance means Vaikuntham. But there is a special means to enter Goloka.

 

2) Fallen devotees may not see yamadutta, but devotees can be sent to hell as part of Krsna's lila. Also if bhakti and Krsna are independent how are we so sure the fallen devotees will surely not see yamaduttas. We can say generally it is true, but Krsna and bhakti are not compelled to do anything.

 

The teaching is that devotees do not go to hell.

 

3) The jiva souls in this material world are completely blameless because they could not do anything to attract bhakti (bhakti is independent). They will always in sristi lila and they can only function under the three modes and keep on rotating between those modes. There is nothing they could have done better in sristi lila. Whenever bhakti will descend, they can do something. Till then, all the so called demons, offensive people are blame less. Bhakti is just not descending on them.

 

People make choices good and bad despite not having bhakti. Thus there are relatively good and bad people in the world. But overall the world is not so free and is considerably determined.

 

 

4) Bhagavat Maharaja made a point about nagar sankirtana and Syamu opposed it on the ground that it will not bring a good name to GV. What is the need to be worried about it because even if they have contempt for the name when they listen from "hippie" naked devotees (Syamu said), they will get the full result of bhakti.

 

People may be benefitted by nama sankirtana, still one should use one's intelligence for outreach. If Harinama causes an immediate repulsion, other methods should be considered. That is just common sense.

 

Overall I see the huge similarity between bhakti and the protestant Christianity idea that "faith and faith alone is necessary" and they reject the idea that "faith without works is dead". Whatever you do if you believe in Jesus and his resurrection, you will go to heaven (equivalent to not seeing yamaduttas). Don't understand SP criticism of Christians who do not follow the teachings because anyway they will be delivered. In one sense, BSST correcting GV was not necessary in some ways because any kind of chanting can give the results. Pretty interesting!

There is really a big difference between Christianity and Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Ajamila was saved from hell by namabhasa, but he entered Vaikuntham only by chanting attentively, etc. Still bhakti can deliver even animals who have no fatih, but the teaching is not that we live like them and expect to be delivered becasue of our faith in bhakti, what to speak of despite our lack of fatih.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - February 23, 2011 11:44 pm

There is really a big difference between Christianity and Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Ajamila was saved from hell by namabhasa, but he entered Vaikuntham only by chanting attentively, etc. Still bhakti can deliver even animals who have no fatih, but the teaching is not that we live like them and expect to be delivered becasue of our faith in bhakti, what to speak of despite our lack of fatih.

Thanks for the answer and clarification! Choices that are relatively good will perhaps be those that lead one to sattva and relatively bad ones lead us to tamas. Though bhakti is independent of the gunas, sattva is a good platform to actually practice bhakti. So in that sense, perhaps jiva's relatively good choices help.

Gauravani Dasa - February 23, 2011 11:55 pm

There is really a big difference between Christianity and Gaudiya Vaisnavism. Ajamila was saved from hell by namabhasa, but he entered Vaikuntham only by chanting attentively, etc. Still bhakti can deliver even animals who have no fatih, but the teaching is not that we live like them and expect to be delivered becasue of our faith in bhakti, what to speak of despite our lack of fatih.

Protestant Christianity is absurdly passive in regards to spiritual growth.

Is it accurate to say that sadhakas should position themselves in such a way to receive kripa and that "positioning" involves the angas of bhakti, saranagati, etc?

Gaura-Vijaya Das - February 24, 2011 12:02 am

Protestant Christianity is absurdly passive in regards to spiritual growth.

 

Is it accurate to say that sadhakas should position themselves in such a way to receive kripa and that "positioning" involves the angas of bhakti, saranagati, etc?

The irony is that Martin Luther was absurdly active in throwing out Catholicism and supplanting it with an absurdly passive spiritual path. I guess it is an active in some ways to get people to just accept articles of faith rather than any deeper spiritual practice. However, many Protestants do practice well.

Prema-bhakti - February 24, 2011 1:38 am

Here's the SB verse and translation by Srila Prabhupada:

 

satāḿ prasańgān mama vīrya-saḿvido

bhavanti hṛt-karṇa-rasāyanāḥ kathāḥ

taj-joṣaṇād āśv apavarga-vartmani

śraddhā ratir bhaktir anukramiṣyati

 

In the association of pure devotees, discussion of the pastimes and activities of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is very pleasing and satisfying to the ear and the heart. By cultivating such knowledge one gradually becomes advanced on the path of liberation, and thereafter he is freed, and his attraction becomes fixed. Then real devotion and devotional service begin.

This is how it is translated in Bhakti Sandarbha: "By association with devotees, one gets an opportunity to hear discussions of My Pastimes, which illustrate My prowess and act as a tonic for the ears and the heart. By listening to these pastimes, faith, attachment, and devotion to Lord Hari quickly manifest one after another."

Gandiva Dasi - February 24, 2011 1:18 pm

In Nectar of Devotion Srila Prabhupada writes;

'Elevation to this stage of ecstasy can be possible in two ways. One way is by constant association with pure devotees. The other way is by the special mercy of Krsna or by the mercy of a pure devotee of Krsna. Elevation to the ecstatic stage of life is generally attained through association with pure devotees, while elevation to that stage by the special mercy of Krsna or His devotee is very rare. The purport is that one should execute devotional service rigidly in the association of devotees so that there will be certainty in raising oneself to that ecstatic position. In special cases, of course, there is special favor from Krsna, and although we should always expect that, we should not sit idly and simply wait for Krsna's special mercy; the regular duties must be performed. It is just as when, sometimes, it is found that a person who never attended school or college may be recognized as a great scholar, or an honorary degree from great universities may be offered to him. But this does not mean that one should avoid school and expect to automatically receive an honorary degree from some university. Similarly, one should devoutly execute the regulative principles of devotional service and at the same time hope for Krsna's favor or for His devotee's favor.'

Prema-bhakti - February 24, 2011 1:29 pm

Nice quote Gandiva.

Shyamananda Das - February 28, 2011 10:05 am

I have a thought regarding the discussion about bhakti's ability to move someone who even lacks faith.

Rasaraja (who's selling the Madhurya Kadambini books) has spoken and written about his personal devotional life in blogs and interviews. He says that he doesn't believe in God or claims Gaudiya Vaishnavism to be "the truth". He is simply inspired by the narrations of the love between Radha and Krishna and desires that they find an increasing place in his heart. He will serve them until death and if there's no life after death then so be it.

I appreciate his honesty and guess that many feel like this but don't dare to say it. My question is: Is this sufficient to attain prema, or is faith an absolute necessity? Maybe he actually has faith but make statements like these to avoid fruitless discussions with skeptics.

I think Swami's solution for this problem is genius. The world of our mind is so twisted that it's actually a myth. If the story of Radha and Krishna can take us out of our limited worldview then musn't it be reality? This gives a living tangible idea of what truth means.

Madan Gopal Das - February 28, 2011 3:37 pm

Faith is an absolute necessity because the subsequent stages are built upon its foundation. Someone may say they don't have faith in God, but statements like this may be symptomatic of situation in later stages like anartha-nivrtti. When one scratches deep enough through the gunk there is a central faith still present but the devotee may be fighting with it. It reminds me of a devotee I knew who lived in the temple for a long time (still does I think) but went through a hard time and at one point went up to the altar and broke his neck beads off and told the deity he was angry with Him (for the troubles he was having in life). While this looks like lack of faith (which on one level it is) it is also acknowledgment of the deity's control over his life.

Similarly, how can one have "appreciation" for the love life of Radha-Krsna without some degree of faith? Such a person doesn't surrender the rest of his life to hearing/appreciating the lila of mundane couples. In other words, he's recognizing some difference, some divinity in the lila. So once some faith sprouts it is impossible(?) for it to ever disappear, despite the declarations of such a person.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - February 28, 2011 4:18 pm

Faith is an absolute necessity because the subsequent stages are built upon its foundation. Someone may say they don't have faith in God, but statements like this may be symptomatic of situation in later stages like anartha-nivrtti. When one scratches deep enough through the gunk there is a central faith still present but the devotee may be fighting with it. It reminds me of a devotee I knew who lived in the temple for a long time (still does I think) but went through a hard time and at one point went up to the altar and broke his neck beads off and told the deity he was angry with Him (for the troubles he was having in life). While this looks like lack of faith (which on one level it is) it is also acknowledgment of the deity's control over his life.

Similarly, how can one have "appreciation" for the love life of Radha-Krsna without some degree of faith? Such a person doesn't surrender the rest of his life to hearing/appreciating the lila of mundane couples. In other words, he's recognizing some difference, some divinity in the lila. So once some faith sprouts it is impossible(?) for it to ever disappear, despite the declarations of such a person.

I think there is faith, which is not backed up substantial realization and that is a predicament for many people. Faith is not a binary object: there are degrees of faith and ruci onwards faith is more substantial. However, in the initial stages it is not clear if the person who externally makes a show of his faith actually has deep faith backed by realization. So there will be people like Rasaraja who express their degree of faith in a way it seems like they don't have faith and there are guru-fanatics who externally express their faith as if they have reached prema already. Perhaps the latter is beneficial for most people and they can't function like Rasaraja.

Nitaisundara Das - March 1, 2011 5:29 am

I am just catching up here as things have been busy! What a great discussion!

Faith is an absolute necessity because the subsequent stages are built upon its foundation. Someone may say they don't have faith in God, but statements like this may be symptomatic of situation in later stages like anartha-nivrtti. When one scratches deep enough through the gunk there is a central faith still present but the devotee may be fighting with it. It reminds me of a devotee I knew who lived in the temple for a long time (still does I think) but went through a hard time and at one point went up to the altar and broke his neck beads off and told the deity he was angry with Him (for the troubles he was having in life). While this looks like lack of faith (which on one level it is) it is also acknowledgment of the deity's control over his life.

Similarly, how can one have "appreciation" for the love life of Radha-Krsna without some degree of faith? Such a person doesn't surrender the rest of his life to hearing/appreciating the lila of mundane couples. In other words, he's recognizing some difference, some divinity in the lila. So once some faith sprouts it is impossible(?) for it to ever disappear, despite the declarations of such a person.

Very well said, Madanji. As Sridhara Maharaja said, it is like approaching the Himalayas and being in the foothills. At times it may look like we are going down.

Shortly before I moved to Audarya I asked GM about Vaishnava aparadha for 3 weeks in a row on the Sunday conference calls. I was trying to digest the idea of the "mad elephant offense" that can uproot bhakti. Before telling me to stop worrying about it so much GM did say that bhakti cannot ever be completely undone. Thank God! (or bhakti?) (or the madhyama devotee through whom bhakti distributes herself! )

Madan Gopal Das - March 1, 2011 1:48 pm

I have to admit I don't quite understand why singing together with other devotees is so crucial for sadhakas.

This question has been gnawing at my conscience a bit. Keeps coming up in my brain, so I apologize for backtracking. Nistha, I think that sankirtana (here we're talking about singing in a group) is crucial in the sense that it is how we associate with like minded devotees. I also experience distractions such as you mentioned, but for me it is almost always on a more subtle level - my mind may become distracted if I experience duality in mood from the group I'm with. If I'm engaged in sankirtana with people of the same mindset (svajatiya) it becomes the most relishable experience and I start to lose the hearing of the beat, the pitch of the voices or the "material" factors which may not be perfect. I think the less "one" I am in consciousness with the group, the more I'm prone to disturbance. But even that can sometimes go away if I'm feeling peaceful and connected with my group internally. In other words, solitary bhajan is somewhat easier, but then again we are not going to a solitary confinement, or a one-on-one relationship with Krsna. I think of Srivas-angan, where the sankirtana there brought all who had the fortune to participate along in waves of shared ecstasy....

Okay, just had to get that out. I've been reading the book, so I'll try to get involved from where we're at.

Guru-nistha Das - March 4, 2011 1:45 am

This question has been gnawing at my conscience a bit. Keeps coming up in my brain, so I apologize for backtracking. Nistha, I think that sankirtana (here we're talking about singing in a group) is crucial in the sense that it is how we associate with like minded devotees. I also experience distractions such as you mentioned, but for me it is almost always on a more subtle level - my mind may become distracted if I experience duality in mood from the group I'm with. If I'm engaged in sankirtana with people of the same mindset (svajatiya) it becomes the most relishable experience and I start to lose the hearing of the beat, the pitch of the voices or the "material" factors which may not be perfect. I think the less "one" I am in consciousness with the group, the more I'm prone to disturbance. But even that can sometimes go away if I'm feeling peaceful and connected with my group internally. In other words, solitary bhajan is somewhat easier, but then again we are not going to a solitary confinement, or a one-on-one relationship with Krsna. I think of Srivas-angan, where the sankirtana there brought all who had the fortune to participate along in waves of shared ecstasy....

Nice points, Madan. But when you said that we won't go to a solitary confinement or one-on-one relationship with Krsna it made me think that many great devotees actually did go to a solitary confinement in the last part of their lives (like Mahaprabhu or Bhaktivinoda Thakur). But that doesn't automatically mean a one-on-one relationship with Krsna. It certainly seems like the more interested and serious you become about bhakti, the smaller your sankirtan group of svajatiya-jana will be

Braja-sundari Dasi - March 4, 2011 2:28 am

Just got my copy (Thank you Prem!)

I would like to come back little bit- I cannot quite grasp difference between arsa and sabda. Is sabda not coming to us via rishis and saints? How can we determine what is just their saying and what is the divine infallible message?

Madan Gopal Das - March 4, 2011 2:31 am

It certainly seems like the more interested and serious you become about bhakti, the smaller your sankirtan group of svajatiya-jana will be

Agreed!

It is interesting to think about Mahaprabhu's lila, that he was in ecstasy with his devotees (svajatiya-jana) in Srivas-angan, yet later his more internal trance-like states and solitude were like a by-product of his ecstasy. Though it is lila, could it be thought of that the Srivas-angan pastimes/kirtans were almost like "preaching to the devotees", making their group tight, Mahaprabhu is displaying his god-hood to so many devotees and miracles are performed all in the midst of the sankirtana. Preaching to the non-devotees is also going on through sankirtan-yajna in the streets. In later pastimes in Puri, Mahaprabhu's ecstasy completely takes over and there isn't even consciousness of his svajatiya-jana, it is just that the ecstasy becomes so deep and his internal involvement so pervasive that solitude comes by force, or svarupa-damodara and others have to lock him up so he doesn't hurt himself....

Guru-nistha Das - March 4, 2011 4:13 am

Braj, that's a good question. I was thinking of the same when reading that section but never asked it. Sabda is also called sabda brahma, so maybe it could be that the sages arsa is referring to are the type that are not brahma-jijnasis but maybe followers of karma-kanda, like the sages of Naismisharanya were before they met Suta Goswami?

Madan, the reason why I would think the Navadwipa pastimes weren't "preaching to the devotees" is because Srivasa Angana is the goal of Gaudiyas and the Navadwipa pastimes are synonymous with the Vrindavana pastimes. That makes me think that the pastimes at Srivasa anganam are the most intimate and secret. Although it seems like Mahaprabhu went into deeper and deeper states of absorption in his antya-lila, still that's not where the Gaudiyas want to follow him, although in one sense it would make sense to try to follow in the wake of the highest absorption.

I liked the point that Mahaprabhu's solitude didn't seems self-imposed. He was just too lost in ecstasy to be around anybody!

Guru-nistha Das - March 4, 2011 4:46 am

Ok, let's move on.

Ananta das Babaji names the next section "What does it mean that bhakti appears "of its own will"?

In the PDF the section starts with the sentence, "Some people take the word to mean "by good fortune", and ends two paragraphs down with the sentence, ". . . and will be fully discussed in the eighth chapter."

Vishwanatha Cakravarti Thakur rules out four possible causes for bhakti's appearance in a person's life:

1. pious activities

2. unknown cause

3. The Lord's mercy

4. The Lord's causeless mercy

As a simple reading comprehension exercise, write down the reasons why the four suggestions can't be true and post it up here. It doesn't matter if there's a lot of repetition. The idea is to put it in your own words and you can also expand on the arguments given by VCT and ADB.

Nitaisundara Das - March 4, 2011 5:06 am

Reading the section on pramanas I think that the distinction between arsa and sabda is that sabda is completely independent and "un authored" (apaurusaya), wheres arsa is not inherently above the four defects. When arsa aligns with sabda, it is to be considered valid, when it differs from sabda, sabda is to be considered conclusive. I think the crux is that a "sage" does not necessarily mean one who has full spiritual knowledge, especially when we look at the many wild things sages do in the narratives of the sastra.

Braja, I think your point about how to tell the difference is an important one. Perhaps one way of looking at it is that within the Hindu framework, various texts are and have been considered conclusive for a long, long time. Any arsa that comes more recently needs to be able to trace itself back to these texts. This is a reasonable explanation considering that accepting sabda as conclusive is already an act of faith, so we talking about how, as believers, to distinguish between arsa and sabda.

So, for example, the Six goswami's labored hard and effectively to establish their views based on widely accepted texts. Without their explanation, no matter how renounced they were, others could have just considered the theory of raga-bhakti their flawed arsa. Now, we can just refer to the Goswami's text (within some circles) and that qualifies as conclusive because their text refers further back.

Swami - March 4, 2011 5:23 pm

Braj, that's a good question. I was thinking of the same when reading that section but never asked it. Sabda is also called sabda brahma, so maybe it could be that the sages arsa is referring to are the type that are not brahma-jijnasis but maybe followers of karma-kanda, like the sages of Naismisharanya were before they met Suta Goswami?

 

Madan, the reason why I would think the Navadwipa pastimes weren't "preaching to the devotees" is because Srivasa Angana is the goal of Gaudiyas and the Navadwipa pastimes are synonymous with the Vrindavana pastimes. That makes me think that the pastimes at Srivasa anganam are the most intimate and secret. Although it seems like Mahaprabhu went into deeper and deeper states of absorption in his antya-lila, still that's not where the Gaudiyas want to follow him, although in one sense it would make sense to try to follow in the wake of the highest absorption.

 

I liked the point that Mahaprabhu's solitude didn't seems self-imposed. He was just too lost in ecstasy to be around anybody!

In the Gambhira we see the aisvarya of extreme ecstasy that keeps devotees at some distance from Mahaprabhu, but in Sivasangan there is intimacy. At times he did sow aisvarya there as well but it is not the norm as it is in the Gambhira. So we want to join him in Srivasangan, but the way to do that passes through the Gambhira. Gambhira lila is also Mahaprabhu's sannyasa lila. Renunciation is aisvarya. In Nadiya he is attached to his friends, but this apparent external consciousness is actually more internal. Puri is more overtly spiritual just as Krsna is in the Gita, but Nadiya is higher, more intimate, and apparently less spiritual just like Krsna-lila in Vrindavana.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - March 4, 2011 7:32 pm

Ok, let's move on.

 

Ananta das Babaji names the next section "What does it mean that bhakti appears "of its own will"?

 

In the PDF the section starts with the sentence, "Some people take the word to mean "by good fortune", and ends two paragraphs down with the sentence, ". . . and will be fully discussed in the eighth chapter."

 

Vishwanatha Cakravarti Thakur rules out four possible causes for bhakti's appearance in a person's life:

 

1. pious activities

2. unknown cause

3. The Lord's mercy

4. The Lord's causeless mercy

 

As a simple reading comprehension exercise, write down the reasons why the four suggestions can't be true and post it up here. It doesn't matter if there's a lot of repetition. The idea is to put it in your own words and you can also expand on the arguments given by VCT and ADB.

It is easy to argue against point 1 and point 2 because no material activity can make bhakti descend and bhakti is the cause for bhaki. But I personally found the logic VCT gives for denying 3 and 4 pretty circular. Causeless mercy does not seem to me such a bad explanation considering what explanation he gives later "bhakti causes bhakti" etc etc is not logically flawless either.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - March 4, 2011 7:40 pm

So, for example, the Six goswami's labored hard and effectively to establish their views based on widely accepted texts. Without their explanation, no matter how renounced they were, others could have just considered the theory of raga-bhakti their flawed arsa. Now, we can just refer to the Goswami's text (within some circles) and that qualifies as conclusive because their text refers further back.

Yes that is a difficulty. In the present time, it is really hard to just accept these distinctions so clearly. I personally take the approach of BVT where revelation is has come done to sages and in some context. Otherwise if you read the Upanishads and the details of Kings and a particular culture mentioned there and take that to be authorless (apauresheya) in a strict sense (all worlds of sabda are exactly "as it is" in every cycle of creation). The conversations do involve a cultural context and perhaps the message in it is timeless. However, strict Vedantic schools maintain that everything in sruti is authorless and it was never created just like the jiva. I tend to take it metaphorically that there is some essential message that continues for eternity. The current modern time poses a strong challenge to the logic employed in medieval India to get through. Nyaya accepts sruti as being authored by God who reveals it to certain rishis.

Guru-nistha Das - March 5, 2011 5:27 am

In the Gambhira we see the aisvarya of extreme ecstasy that keeps devotees at some distance from Mahaprabhu, but in Sivasangan there is intimacy. At times he did sow aisvarya there as well but it is not the norm as it is in the Gambhira. So we want to join him in Srivasangan, but the way to do that passes through the Gambhira. Gambhira lila is also Mahaprabhu's sannyasa lila. Renunciation is aisvarya. In Nadiya he is attached to his friends, but this apparent external consciousness is actually more internal. Puri is more overtly spiritual just as Krsna is in the Gita, but Nadiya is higher, more intimate, and apparently less spiritual just like Krsna-lila in Vrindavana.

I really like the point that we have to "pass through the Gambhira". We shouldn't fool ourselves as sadhakas to believe that we don't have to leave behind every drop of our false identity and every single attachment. The way to do it in the context of bhakti is certainly more natural and organic but it's still not going to be easy.

atah sri krishna namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaih

sevonmukhe hi jihvadau svayam eva sphuraty adah

(Bhakti-rasamrita- sindhu 1.2.234)

“The transcendental name, form, qualities and pastimes of Sri Krishna cannot be comprehended through the materially contaminated senses. Only when one becomes spiritually saturated by transcendental service to the Lord, the transcendental name, form, qualities and pastimes of the Lord are revealed to him.”

Braja-sundari Dasi - March 6, 2011 2:32 am

Reading the section on pramanas I think that the distinction between arsa and sabda is that sabda is completely independent and "un authored" (apaurusaya), wheres arsa is not inherently above the four defects. When arsa aligns with sabda, it is to be considered valid, when it differs from sabda, sabda is to be considered conclusive. I think the crux is that a "sage" does not necessarily mean one who has full spiritual knowledge, especially when we look at the many wild things sages do in the narratives of the sastra.

 

Braja, I think your point about how to tell the difference is an important one. Perhaps one way of looking at it is that within the Hindu framework, various texts are and have been considered conclusive for a long, long time. Any arsa that comes more recently needs to be able to trace itself back to these texts. This is a reasonable explanation considering that accepting sabda as conclusive is already an act of faith, so we talking about how, as believers, to distinguish between arsa and sabda.

 

So, for example, the Six goswami's labored hard and effectively to establish their views based on widely accepted texts. Without their explanation, no matter how renounced they were, others could have just considered the theory of raga-bhakti their flawed arsa. Now, we can just refer to the Goswami's text (within some circles) and that qualifies as conclusive because their text refers further back.

Thank you Nitai! I agree also with Gaur Vijay that sabda may contain things that although divinely inspired are not absolute truth in themselves. Therefore we anyway need sadhu to understand sabda

Braja-sundari Dasi - March 6, 2011 2:45 am

I`m still one chapter behind and once again I have difficulty understanding something

Ananta Das Babaji writes that svarupa sakti of Krishna consists of sat, cit and ananda and that they are inseparable and always manifest together. And then he says that cit sakti consists of samvit, sandhini and hladini. I always thought they were synonymus: sat=sandhini, cit=samvit, ananda=hladini. If there is difference between them, what it is?

Gaura-Vijaya Das - March 6, 2011 5:23 am

I`m still one chapter behind and once again I have difficulty understanding something

 

Ananta Das Babaji writes that svarupa sakti of Krishna consists of sat, cit and ananda and that they are inseparable and always manifest together. And then he says that cit sakti consists of samvit, sandhini and hladini. I always thought they were synonymus: sat=sandhini, cit=samvit, ananda=hladini. If there is difference between them, what it is?

Beautiful question Braja. I think this equivalence is stated by BVT. Similarly Ananta Das Babaji must have found another way of speaking about things. I have not studied the goswami sastras to know whether this is ADB's own insight or he has directly used Goswami sastra. I think it is the former.

Swami - March 6, 2011 5:59 pm

Beautiful question Braja. I think this equivalence is stated by BVT. Similarly Ananta Das Babaji must have found another way of speaking about things. I have not studied the goswami sastras to know whether this is ADB's own insight or he has directly used Goswami sastra. I think it is the former.

The difference between sat cit ananda and samvit sandhini and hladhini appears to be quantitative in that the sat cit ananda of of the svarupa or cit sakti is greater than the sat cit ananda of the jiva, or that of Brahman, and even greater than the sat cit ananda that is within Bhagavan. His bhagavata svarupananada, for example, is not as great as his svarupa-sakti ananda.

When we say that the bliss of Brahman if multiplied a trillion-fold cannot compare to the quantity of bliss in a tiny atomic particle of prem-bhakti, we are not distinguishing qualitatively but quantitatively. It is on the basis of this understanding, it seems, that BVT describes the jivatma as an atomic particle of svarupa sakti (a partial manifestation of svarupa sakti) that unto itself is not competent to overwhelm Bhagavan, whereas in conjunction with the entirety of the svarupa sakti it can. It's an interesting argument that makes one's svarupa somewhat more intrinsic to the jiva, more so than when the svarupa sakti is described as entirely different from the jiva sakti. Also BVT sees the maya sakti as a distorted manifestation of the svarupa sakti (asat acit nirananda).

Gaura-Vijaya Das - March 6, 2011 6:12 pm

The difference between sat cit ananda and samvit sandhini and hladhini appears to be quantitative in that the sat cit ananda of of the svarupa or cit sakti is greater than the sat cit ananda of the jiva, or that of Brahman, and even greater than the sat cit ananda that is within Bhagavan. His bhagavata svarupananada, for example, is not as great as his svarupa-sakti ananda.

 

When we say that the bliss of Brahman if multiplied a trillion-fold cannot compare to the quantity of bliss in a tiny atomic particle of prem-bhakti, we are not distinguishing qualitatively but quantitatively. It is on the basis of this understanding, it seems, that BVT describes the jivatma as an atomic particle of svarupa sakti (a partial manifestation of svarupa sakti) that unto itself is not competent to overwhelm Bhagavan, whereas in conjunction with the entirety of the svarupa sakti it can. It's an interesting argument that makes one's svarupa somewhat more intrinsic to the jiva, more so than when the svarupa sakti is described as entirely different from the jiva sakti. Also BVT sees the maya sakti as a distorted manifestation of the svarupa sakti (asat acit nirananda).

Thanks GM but what to make of ADB's assertion that

cit sakti consists of samvit, sandhini and hladini.

Swami - March 7, 2011 2:10 pm

Thanks GM but what to make of ADB's assertion that

cit sakti consists of samvit, sandhini and hladini.

He is using the word cit-sakti as another name for svarupa-sakti as is commonly done.

Guru-nistha Das - March 7, 2011 4:04 pm

I`m still one chapter behind and once again I have difficulty understanding something

 

Ananta Das Babaji writes that svarupa sakti of Krishna consists of sat, cit and ananda and that they are inseparable and always manifest together. And then he says that cit sakti consists of samvit, sandhini and hladini. I always thought they were synonymus: sat=sandhini, cit=samvit, ananda=hladini. If there is difference between them, what it is?

I'm glad you brought this up Braja, I looked into it while going through the section but never posted anything about it.

One way of trying to understand the relationship between the terms more clearly is that the words sat, cit and ananda mean certain qualities. Sat means existence, cit consciousness and ananda bliss. So wherever these qualities manifest, the terms can be used. But Sandhini, Samvit and Hladini don't mean anything in themselves but they are names for the same qualities of sat, cit and ananda when expressed by the svarupa-shakti.

Before BVT, Gaudiyas seemed to think that the svarupa-shakti is completely separate from jiva-shakti and maya-shakti, but BVT is explaining it in his Jaiva-Dharma how all expressions of shakti are either transformations or reflections of svarupa-shakti. He makes the point that jiva-shakti and maya-shakti don't function independently

but are like a shadow and a reflection (respectively) of the para-shakti.

I'd recommend reading Jaiva-Dharma's Chapter 14: Prameya: Shakti-tattva

Madan Gopal Das - March 7, 2011 4:08 pm

I really like the point that we have to "pass through the Gambhira".

I also appreciate GM's summary of this esoteric truth and illumination of gaura-lila. Thinking about Mahaprabhu's life as an example for us, I'm wondering about going to Srivasangan via Gambhira. As I suggested earlier, Mahaprabhu's gambhira pastimes portray his ecstatic absorption, and his solitude seems to be the result of his deep madness, as GM says - the aisvarya of ecstasy. GM also explains the diminished intimacy as related to the aisvarya brought about by his renunciation.

So I guess this is a chicken or egg, seed or tree kind of question - which came first, the ecstasy or the vairagya? In the lila of the lord, they are both eternally present. But for instructive purposes for sadhakas, from acarya-lila, what should we learn, knowing that vairagya in and of itself is not a path to bhakti, but that through bhakti one achieves complete vairagya. Should we go for the mad ecstatic absorption which will bring about total renunciation, or should we cultivate external renunciation in conjunction with bhakti to achieve ecstasy? I don't mean for this to be a householder vs. tyagi kind of debate because I agree with

We shouldn't fool ourselves as sadhakas to believe that we don't have to leave behind every drop of our false identity and every single attachment.

But just makes me think about in my own life how from an external point of view I have more "stuff" (people, family, etc.) but I don't feel lack of opportunity to go through the Gambhira. So, just clarifying; you don't have to be wearing saffron to enter that tiny room right? Either way, as householder or forest-dweller you can't take your "stuff" with you.

Madan Gopal Das - March 7, 2011 4:41 pm

Before BVT, Gaudiyas seemed to think that the svarupa-shakti is completely separate from jiva-shakti and maya-shakti

I like this point that GM made that the jiva-shakti is minute svarupa-shakti and that the totality of svarupa-sakti can overwhelm bhagavan. So instead of thinking of the jiva as part/parcel of bhagavan, it is reasonable to consider the jiva as part/parcel of svarupa-sakti, Radha, or the serving potency - the enjoyed.

I guess in this kind of orientation the goal of jiva is to come out of our shadow existence, go through the mirror to join the true sakti in her attempts at overpowering bhagavan by love!

Guru-nistha Das - March 8, 2011 5:09 am

But just makes me think about in my own life how from an external point of view I have more "stuff" (people, family, etc.) but I don't feel lack of opportunity to go through the Gambhira. So, just clarifying; you don't have to be wearing saffron to enter that tiny room right? Either way, as householder or forest-dweller you can't take your "stuff" with you.

No no, I wasn't think of what I wrote in terms of grihasta vs. tyagi at all. I'm just becoming more and more aware of the fact I wrote about in my own life so I felt compelled to write it out.

Guru-nistha Das - March 8, 2011 5:23 am

Should we go for the mad ecstatic absorption which will bring about total renunciation, or should we cultivate external renunciation in conjunction with bhakti to achieve ecstasy?

This is another subject that has been on my mind lately and what I have realized is that if you simply follow the two first angas of saranagati by accepting what's favorable and rejecting what is unfavorable, it in itself is intense cultivation of renunciation.

If we would only do what is favorable for cultivating suddha-bhakti, our lives would look a lot different.

Since in the beginning stages of bhakti we are not driven by a positive motivation (ruci for the practices), it is in fact renunciation in the more traditional sense because we have to restrain our urges by our intelligence fueled by sambandha-jnana and sadhu-sanga. The difference between that and vairagya as a path unto itself is of course that our renunciation is nothing more than cleaning up the house before praying that bhakti-devi might grace us with her presence.

Babhru Das - March 8, 2011 4:14 pm

I'm way behind, mostly because I don't have my MK with me, but I'd like to share something that may help with the distinction between sabda and arsa. These are notes I took on pramanas as I was reading Stuart Elkman's book Jiva Gosvamin's Tattva-sadarbha:

acc. to Madhva, there are three valid pramanas (means of acquiring right knowledge):

• pratyaksa—sense-perception

• anumana—inference

• sabda—revelation

acc. to followers of Vedanta, there are six:

• pratyaksa—sense-perception

• anumana—inference

• upamana—analogy

• sabda—revelation or valid testimony

• abhava—proof from non-existence, or anupalabhdi (proof based on non-perceptibiliy of an entity)

• arthapatti—inference from circumstance

Jiva Gosvami lists ten, adding these to the above six:

• arsa—the statements of the devas and rsis

• sambhava—probability

• aitihya—traditional knowledge

• cesta—gesture

All accept only sabda as perfect, being free from the four defects. It is not based on any of the other pramanas, and can function in the realm of metaphysical questions.

I infer from the last phrase that he means that sabda can function independently even in the realm of metaphysical questions.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - March 8, 2011 6:11 pm

I'm way behind, mostly because I don't have my MK with me, but I'd like to share something that may help with the distinction between sabda and arsa. These are notes I took on pramanas as I was reading Stuart Elkman's book Jiva Gosvamin's Tattva-sadarbha:

 

acc. to Madhva, there are three valid pramanas (means of acquiring right knowledge):

 

• pratyaksa—sense-perception

• anumana—inference

• sabda—revelation

 

acc. to followers of Vedanta, there are six:

• pratyaksa—sense-perception

• anumana—inference

• upamana—analogy

• sabda—revelation or valid testimony

• abhava—proof from non-existence, or anupalabhdi (proof based on non-perceptibiliy of an entity)

• arthapatti—inference from circumstance

 

Jiva Gosvami lists ten, adding these to the above six:

• arsa—the statements of the devas and rsis

• sambhava—probability

• aitihya—traditional knowledge

• cesta—gesture

 

All accept only sabda as perfect, being free from the four defects. It is not based on any of the other pramanas, and can function in the realm of metaphysical questions.

 

I infer from the last phrase that he means that sabda can function independently even in the realm of metaphysical questions.

But sabda has been revealed to rishis after all, so it will always be hard in modern times to distinguish between arsa and sabda.

Babhru Das - March 10, 2011 7:13 pm

But sabda has been revealed to rishis after all, so it will always be hard in modern times to distinguish between arsa and sabda.

I think this is a good point; I was looking for the distinction, and such a fine point may be difficult to apply practically these days. I'm trying to remember something else about arsa. Am I mistaken in remembering that it may also include things such as local vaisnava lore and practice, such as worship of Govardhana-silas?

Bhrigu - March 11, 2011 7:21 am

I think that arsha would refer directly to the statements of ancient rishis, while more general "traditional" knowledge would be classified under aitihya. Shabda then refers to the eternal words of the Vedas. But most Vedantins (and Jiva Goswami in Tattva-sandarbha) conflates all of this under shabda, which does make sense, since these lines seem to be somewhat artificial.

Otherwise I am happy to have finally had the time to read up on this thread and the text itself. Pandit Ananta Dasa's writing is very lucid and traditional, in a nice sense. One thing that struck me in the commentary was how right in the beginning he writes that everyone must study MK, so that he will be able to judge where he is situated on the devotional path and apply the correct methods. This is something that I have been wondering about. The problem is that it is not always so easy to judge oneself; I for one cannot say where I am, but perhaps after we have finished the book I can.

One thing that might help would be examples. I asked Guru Maharaj last summer if he could give examples of living, contemporary devotees in the different states, but he declined. I still think it would have been helpful, but understand that saying something like that on tape might have been controversial. But perhaps on Tattvaviveka?

Braja-sundari Dasi - March 11, 2011 2:20 pm

Otherwise I am happy to have finally had the time to read up on this thread and the text itself. Pandit Ananta Dasa's writing is very lucid and traditional, in a nice sense. One thing that struck me in the commentary was how right in the beginning he writes that everyone must study MK, so that he will be able to judge where he is situated on the devotional path and apply the correct methods. This is something that I have been wondering about. The problem is that it is not always so easy to judge oneself; I for one cannot say where I am, but perhaps after we have finished the book I can.

In fact I know a person who felt that MK confirmed her high level of spiritual advancement.

But we are studing under good guidance, nothing like that should happen on this thread

Madan Gopal Das - March 11, 2011 5:20 pm

In fact I know a person who felt that MK confirmed her high level of spiritual advancement.

utsaha-mayi?

Babhru Das - March 11, 2011 5:21 pm

I think that arsha would refer directly to the statements of ancient rishis, while more general "traditional" knowledge would be classified under aitihya. Shabda then refers to the eternal words of the Vedas.

Of course. Thanks. Even though I put that list up, somehow I missed aitihya.

Nitaisundara Das - March 11, 2011 6:00 pm

Haha, Madan. Hey its relatively "high".

Guru-nistha Das - March 12, 2011 5:24 am

Welcome on board, Bhrigu! Good to have you here.

Guru-nistha Das - March 14, 2011 1:04 am

I found an interesting verse in relation to the discussion earlier here about the relationship between svarupa-shakti, jiva-shakti and maya-shakti.

" The external potency, maya, who is of the nature of the shadow of the cit [spiritual] potency, is worshiped by all people as Durga, the creating, preserving and destroying agency of this mundane world. [. . .]"

(Brahma-Samhita 5.44)

Krsna Caitanya Das - March 14, 2011 6:21 pm

I hope you don't mind me bringing up a past topic on this tread, but I have been thinking about it for some time and recently read something in the CC that made me wonder about it more. It has to do with sankirtana. Previously some seemed to say that sankirtana is congregational chanting and others tied it to outreach. I know of some who stress that we should congregationally chant in public. Book distribution has been called sankirtana. One person questioned the necessity of getting together with others to sing. All this makes me wonder what sankirtana is. Does it have to be done in a group? Does it need to be tied to outreach? Is it different according to one's level of advancement and/or personal taste? It seems like the definition of sankirtana can be extended to include almost any worship of the Lord. What is or are the essential characteristic(s) that make worship of Krishna into the sankirtana that Lord Chaitanya is talking about? Here is one of the verses that I read recently that made me think about it more:

CC, Madhya 18,

TEXT 80

TEXT

vṛndāvane āsi' prabhu vasiyā ekānta

nāma-saṅkīrtana kare madhyāhna-paryanta

SYNONYMS

vṛndāvane āsi'-coming to Vṛndāvana; prabhu—Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu; vasiyā—sitting; ekānta—in a solitary place; nāma-saṅkīrtana kare—performs chanting of the holy name; madhyāhna-paryanta—until noon.

TRANSLATION

Therefore Śrī Caitanya Mahāprabhu would go to Vṛndāvana and sit in a solitary place. It was there that He chanted the holy name until noon.

Lord Chaitanya couldn't peacefully chant because there were too many people around. So it said he sat down in a solitary place to engage in chanting. The Bengali used here is nama-sankirtana. It seems like this indicates that one can perform sankirtana alone. I apologize if this is off topic. I am just wondering how to engage in the yuga-dharma. Any assistance would be appreciated. Thank you.

Madan Gopal Das - March 14, 2011 7:35 pm

Thanks for bringing in your study Krsna-caitanya!

Good quote connecting solitary chanting to sankirtan. As mentioned previously it is said that sankirtana can also be translated as "complete" kirtan. That is why book distribution or book writing (generally done best in solitude) can be considered complete kirtan or glorification of Krsna. While acknowledging these various aspects of sankirtan I think Guru-nistha's question earlier was specifically whether or not singing songs, playing instruments in a group was a must for one to perform the yuga-dharma or if one could be a sankirtana devotee in isolation, with no musical tendencies. It appears from your quote that japa could be sankirtana also, but my guess would be that no matter what form of chanting Mahaprabhu performs, it is always SAN-kirtana.

Guru-nistha is not allowed to give up group chanting, at least when I'm around.

Bhrigu - March 15, 2011 8:56 am

Rupa Goswami defines sankirtana in this way in the Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu (1.2.145): nama-lila-gunadinam uccair bhasa tu kirtanam -- "kirtana with a loud voice of [His] names, pastimes and qualities." None of the commentators write anything about this verse. In other words, sankirtana and kirtana seem to be pretty much synonymous in the Goswami granthas, and the congregational aspect may not be so important.

As for Lord Caitanya's doing sankirtana alone, "alone" in these texts rarely means completely alone. Most probably, he at least had his sevak with him.

Madan Gopal Das - March 15, 2011 3:20 pm

I'm not sure where we're at anymore, pretty sure I'm still trailing a bit. Can we have a new prompt from the moderator(s)? After elaborating on the yadrcchaya (chance) nature of bhakti, these few sentences stuck with me:

"One can thus understand from this description that bhakti is by nature self-manifesting like the Lord. Thus it depends upon no other cause to appear, but manifests within the devotee by her own independent will. One engages in the practices of devotion (sadhan-bhajan) only to make the heart suitable for her appearance.

Guru-nistha Das - March 15, 2011 5:01 pm

We are currently in the section, "What does it mean that bhakti appears "of its own will"?

Things are a little too hectic this week for the Audarya-vasis to move forward with the study since we are getting ready for the festivities but we should definitely get back to it next week.

Or another idea is that Madan or Bhrigu could be the moderator for the next section and we will pick it up again next week.

I wanted to say that it's very inspiring to me that the study group is going on despite my and Nitai's sporratic moderating!

Let's keep it going.

Swami - March 15, 2011 6:13 pm

Rupa Goswami defines sankirtana in this way in the Bhakti-rasamrita-sindhu (1.2.145): nama-lila-gunadinam uccair bhasa tu kirtanam -- "kirtana with a loud voice of [His] names, pastimes and qualities." None of the commentators write anything about this verse. In other words, sankirtana and kirtana seem to be pretty much synonymous in the Goswami granthas, and the congregational aspect may not be so important.

 

As for Lord Caitanya's doing sankirtana alone, "alone" in these texts rarely means completely alone. Most probably, he at least had his sevak with him.

In Cc what we refer to as japa is also sometimes labeled "sankirtana."

haridasa kahe,—“toma karimu angikara

sankhya-nama-samapti yavat na haya amara

tavat tumi vasi’ suna nama-sankirtana

nama-samapti haile karimu ye tomara mana“

Bhrigu - March 16, 2011 7:39 am

Thank you for that quote, Guru Maharaj! Interesting! I guess what is going on there is that Haridas is sitting with his beads (and thus doing japa), but he is clearly going to be chanting aloud (since the prostitute will hear the Holy names) and therefore he is speaking about sankirtana. So what technically is called vachika japa ("ISKCON style japa") can also be called sankirtana.

Swami - March 16, 2011 3:55 pm

Thank you for that quote, Guru Maharaj! Interesting! I guess what is going on there is that Haridas is sitting with his beads (and thus doing japa), but he is clearly going to be chanting aloud (since the prostitute will hear the Holy names) and therefore he is speaking about sankirtana. So what technically is called vachika japa ("ISKCON style japa") can also be called sankirtana.

Yes, that seems to be the case. Here is a more specific reference:

dekhe,—haridasa thakura kariyache sayana

manda manda kariteche sankhya-sankirtana

"When Govinda came to Haridasa, he saw that Haridasa Thakura was lying on his back and chanting (sankirtana) his rounds (sankya) very slowly."

The word "sankya" (counting) is a clear reference to japa, but here this japa is referred to as sankirtana. So as you say, it is the vachika japa that we commonly see in Iskcon that is being described.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - March 16, 2011 5:16 pm

Yes, that seems to be the case. Here is a more specific reference:

 

dekhe,—haridasa thakura kariyache sayana

manda manda kariteche sankhya-sankirtana

 

"When Govinda came to Haridasa, he saw that Haridasa Thakura was lying on his back and chanting (sankirtana) his rounds (sankya) very slowly."

 

The word "sankya" (counting) is a clear reference to japa, but here this japa is referred to as sankirtana. So as you say, it is the vachika japa that we commonly see in Iskcon that is being described.

So the idea of nagar-sankartina being an essential practice is contradicted here.

Madan Gopal Das - March 16, 2011 7:02 pm

So the idea of nagar-sankartina being an essential practice is contradicted here.

No, not by these references. I don't get the sense that devotees of the past were making a distinction as clearly as we are trying to, and I think interpreting the use of the word sankirtana is a separate issue from whether street sankirtana is a necessary activity in Gaudiya vaisnava dharma. That is for current acaryas to contemplate and elaborate upon. CC and Gaura-lila aren't using the word sankirtana to discuss essentiality or not of nagar-kirtan or chanting congregationally but rather may have used the word to describe either the totality (completeness) of the kirtan that someone like Mahaprabhu or Thakur Haridas performed, or to just simply describe "out loud" chanting.

As Bhrigu suggests by his reference, kirtan (to glorify) may not be defined by the numbers of people performing it. So kirtan is the essential activity all Gaudiyas do, but I think what remains an individual issue is how many people one chooses to do kirtan with, and what form that kirtan takes. That may be more flexible. In GM's reference Haridas is performing sankirtan by chanting japa and if I remember correctly Haridas describes elsewhere the superiority of chanting out loud for the benefit of other living entities. That would be sankirtan. But we don't think of Haridas as a great performer of kirtan, playing instruments and singing and such, but rather as a great chanter of japa and meditative nama-bhajan.

Bhrigu - March 17, 2011 1:36 pm

Here is something that I wrote a couple of years ago for Journal of Vaishnava Studies on kirtana/ sankirtana and which may be of some interest.

The_Goswamins_on_Kirtana.pdf

Tadiya Dasi - March 17, 2011 2:42 pm

Interesting, Bhrigu! Thanks for sharing what you wrote with all of us!

Braja-sundari Dasi - March 23, 2011 2:42 am

I found an interesting verse in relation to the discussion earlier here about the relationship between svarupa-shakti, jiva-shakti and maya-shakti.

 

" The external potency, maya, who is of the nature of the shadow of the cit [spiritual] potency, is worshiped by all people as Durga, the creating, preserving and destroying agency of this mundane world. [. . .]"

 

(Brahma-Samhita 5.44)

I`ve read the chapter in Jaiva Dharma that you recommended and I`m amazed that never before I`ve noticed that material nature is siva sakti.

Nitaisundara Das - March 23, 2011 4:29 am

Next section of MK coming tomorrow. Hold me to it!

Madan Gopal Das - March 23, 2011 4:15 pm

Next section of MK coming tomorrow. Hold me to it!

Hari Bhakti - March 23, 2011 7:37 pm

I`ve read the chapter in Jaiva Dharma that you recommended and I`m amazed that never before I`ve noticed that material nature is siva sakti.

Braja-sundari,

Will you tell us what chapter in Jaiva-dharma?

Braja-sundari Dasi - March 23, 2011 8:22 pm

Braja-sundari,

 

Will you tell us what chapter in Jaiva-dharma?

Chapter 14: Prameya: Shakti-tattva

Nitaisundara Das - March 24, 2011 3:28 am

The current section Ananta das Babaji titles, "What does it mean that bhakti appears 'of its own will'"? In the PDF this section is the first 3 paragraphs on page 4.

VCT rules out good fortune as the cause of bhakti by saying that if we take good fortune to be the cause, we must then seek the source of that good fortune. If the source is good karma, than the previously established point of bhakti being self-manifesting would not be correct. If the good fortune arises independent of good karma, than it is inexplicable and cannot be the cause of bhakti "How can one thing that cannot be ascertained be the cause of something else?"

VCT rules out the Lord's mercy because again we must inquire as to the cause of that mercy. He further rules out causeless mercy because we do not see every being getting bhakti, which would make the Lord guilty of favoritism. (Although the favoritism he shows in defeating enemies and protecting devotees is considered a positive quality).

I personally find the wording "bhakti appearing of its own will" a little confusing here, at least in that this section does not really speak about bhakti actively appearing; it basically seeks to show that nothing else is causing bhakti. Perhaps it is hair-splitting, but it tripped me up some.

Otherwise I was having some trouble with this statement: "How can one thing that cannot be ascertained be the cause of something else?" but I think what it means is that we cannot conclusively say an unascertainable thing is the cause of something else, if that makes sense.

The fact that the Lord shows (dis)favoritism in relation to demons in the lila still seems to me like it could be seen as a fault, but ADB makes the point that he is actually showing extreme compassion by giving them liberation (or in Putana's case, vatsalya bhakti), which their behavior would never ever merit.

Bhrigu - March 24, 2011 8:42 am

One thing I didn't like in this section was the statement that because of their hatred of the devotees, the spirit soul of the demons would have to undergo severe suffering in hell forever if the Lord didn't kill them. Firstly, since the idea of an eternal hell is repugnant to me (though it does have some support in the Gita 17.19), and secondly because it is not that the soul itself suffers, being saccidananda by nature. But this seems to be a mistake in translation.

Otherwise, I find the question of the Lord's favoritism an interesting one, brought up already by Hiranyakashipu.

Swami - March 24, 2011 11:46 am

The idea of a literal eternal hell seems to lack support overall in that the worlds of earth, heaven, and hell are thought to come and go with each round of creation.

Also from Krsna sandarbha:

"When Lord Krsna considered how Putana and other demons had already become liberated, He began to suspect that perhaps Kalanemi and the other remaining demons would not attain liberation. This possibility became completely intolerable for the Lord. This astonishing transcendental nature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, Lord Krsna, is described by Parasara Muni at the end of his prose description of the Lord's opulence."

Sri Jiva writes this to further distinguish Krsna from every other avatara.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - March 24, 2011 2:10 pm

The current section Ananta das Babaji titles, "What does it mean that bhakti appears 'of its own will'"? In the PDF this section is the first 3 paragraphs on page 4.

 

VCT rules out good fortune as the cause of bhakti by saying that if we take good fortune to be the cause, we must then seek the source of that good fortune. If the source is good karma, than the previously established point of bhakti being self-manifesting would not be correct. If the good fortune arises independent of good karma, than it is inexplicable and cannot be the cause of bhakti "How can one thing that cannot be ascertained be the cause of something else?"

 

VCT rules out the Lord's mercy because again we must inquire as to the cause of that mercy. He further rules out causeless mercy because we do not see every being getting bhakti, which would make the Lord guilty of favoritism. (Although the favoritism he shows in defeating enemies and protecting devotees is considered a positive quality).

 

I personally find the wording "bhakti appearing of its own will" a little confusing here, at least in that this section does not really speak about bhakti actively appearing; it basically seeks to show that nothing else is causing bhakti. Perhaps it is hair-splitting, but it tripped me up some.

 

Otherwise I was having some trouble with this statement: "How can one thing that cannot be ascertained be the cause of something else?" but I think what it means is that we cannot conclusively say an unascertainable thing is the cause of something else, if that makes sense.

 

The fact that the Lord shows (dis)favoritism in relation to demons in the lila still seems to me like it could be seen as a fault, but ADB makes the point that he is actually showing extreme compassion by giving them liberation (or in Putana's case, vatsalya bhakti), which their behavior would never ever merit.

In the end, the explanation of bhakti appearing of its own will or causelessly don't seem that different to me.

Gauravani Dasa - March 25, 2011 11:56 am

The current section Ananta das Babaji titles, "What does it mean that bhakti appears 'of its own will'"?

For me, this seems easier to understand if I consider bhakti not as something performed but as Bhakti-devi, a person, who influences the sadhaka through Sri Guru to render service to Krsna. Is that far-fetched?

Isn't the propensity for seva an aspect of Bhakti-devi (Sri Radha) herself? Reliance on Bhakti-devi for the strength to do sadhana and seva seems to also reinforce our position as tatastha. Without sadhu-sanga (where Bhakti-devi is present?) we won't grow. But she also influences the jiva to participate in sadhu-sanga, perhaps knowing that Sri Guru needs our help in service to his/her guru. This seems to support "bhakti leads to bhakti."

Sorry if this line of thought is "out there." There are probably some conclusions that could be derived from this conception that would not be in line with sastra. I can also see this as an effort/mercy dichotomy where one side could errantly be given more emphasis than the other.

Madan Gopal Das - March 25, 2011 12:38 pm

Don't doubt your realization Gauravani, I don't think you're grasping for straws at all. Everything you're saying rings true to my understanding and for more confirmation and elaboration listen to GM's recent classes (particularly class 2 and 3) on SB 1.2.20.

Bhaktya sanjayate bhaktya. At some point bhakti graces us "by chance" (yadrccaya) and from then on we require association with more bhakti, connecting ourselves with the greater ocean of devotion. We are helpless on our own, with a tendency to fall into illusion. We want to "dovetail" our weakness by associating with the svarupa-sakti so that we will be influenced by her more and more. There is strength in numbers, so the stronger our connection with bhakti-devi, the less influential maha-maya becomes. I posted something recently on FB about one of these classes...

Re. effort vs. mercy, that goes back to another point that I posted here (or maybe FB) earlier. Our effort is not oriented towards the idea that we can get bhakti by something we do (like sadhana), but rather in making the heart suitable for bhakti to descend. If our heart is filled with favorable attitude towards Krsna, bhakti will want to descend there, to utilize us in service to her lord. Our effort is also in getting more sanga, because that is where the bhakti does her outreach. We are going to be influenced by sanga (tatastha), so we want to get there in hopes that some bhakti will rub off on us.

Braja-sundari Dasi - March 27, 2011 2:17 am

Yet to Putana bhakti was given directly by Krishna. So it seems in this case she appeared not "independently"

Braja-sundari Dasi - March 29, 2011 1:03 pm

Yet to Putana bhakti was given directly by Krishna. So it seems in this case she appeared not "independently"

I`ve heard the story long time ago but I couldn`t find any references. Now here it is:

According to Brahma-vaivarta Purana, Putana had been Ratnamala in her previous life, the younger sister of Bali Maharaja. When Lord Vamana came into the assembly in Bali Maharaja's palace, everyone was astonished by this five-year old brahmachari boy, looking like the epitome of saintliness and sweetness in His deerskin with a belt of straw and an effulgence even

brighter than the sun. When Ratnamala saw this beautiful little boy, she became overwhelmed with maternal feelings towards Him. Understanding her desire, the Lord spoke to her, giving her the benediction that in her next life she would be able to suckle Him, just like a mother.

However, shortly after this, Lord Vamana took the whole universe from Bali and Ratnamala's mood of attraction for the Lord changed into one of hatred. Within her mind she thought: "Perhaps I will have you as my son and breast feed you. But if I do, I will then kill You!"

So maybe because Bali Maharaj was pure devotee, combination of Putana`s desire, already sancioned by the Lord and saintly association of her brother made it possible for her to attain bhakti (vraja bhakti!) instead of mere mukti.

Does it make sense?

Swami - March 29, 2011 11:44 pm

I`ve heard the story long time ago but I couldn`t find any references. Now here it is:

 

According to Brahma-vaivarta Purana, Putana had been Ratnamala in her previous life, the younger sister of Bali Maharaja. When Lord Vamana came into the assembly in Bali Maharaja's palace, everyone was astonished by this five-year old brahmachari boy, looking like the epitome of saintliness and sweetness in His deerskin with a belt of straw and an effulgence even

brighter than the sun. When Ratnamala saw this beautiful little boy, she became overwhelmed with maternal feelings towards Him. Understanding her desire, the Lord spoke to her, giving her the benediction that in her next life she would be able to suckle Him, just like a mother.

 

However, shortly after this, Lord Vamana took the whole universe from Bali and Ratnamala's mood of attraction for the Lord changed into one of hatred. Within her mind she thought: "Perhaps I will have you as my son and breast feed you. But if I do, I will then kill You!"

 

So maybe because Bali Maharaj was pure devotee, combination of Putana`s desire, already sancioned by the Lord and saintly association of her brother made it possible for her to attain bhakti (vraja bhakti!) instead of mere mukti.

 

Does it make sense?

Despite what VCT has written about the genesis of bhakti, it is also stated that bhava-bhakti and prema-bhakti can be attained by Krsna's mercy alone. So you can look at cases like Putana as ones in which bhakti comes and Krsna intervenes at some point and gives bhava or prema. Ratnamala developed an initial desire to serve through association . . . But is does appear that the idea that bhakti is not caused by the causeless mercy of Krsna is a weak link in VCT's argument.

Braja-sundari Dasi - March 30, 2011 1:30 am

Despite what VCT has written about the genesis of bhakti, it is also stated that bhava-bhakti and prema-bhakti can be attained by Krsna's mercy alone. So you can look at cases like Putana as ones in which bhakti comes and Krsna intervenes at some point and gives bhava or prema. Ratnamala developed an initial desire to serve through association . . . But is does appear that the idea that bhakti is not caused by the causeless mercy of Krsna is a weak link in VCT's argument.

Thank you Guru Maharaj.

Nitaisundara Das - April 28, 2011 5:43 am

Trying to get back into our Madhurya Kadambini study. The next section is very short, but it's something.

Section 1.6: Bhakti in One Devotee's Heart is the Cause of Bhakti in Another's

In the PDF, this section is the paragraph on page 4 beginning with "In proposing…"

In the previous section, VCT showed that bhakti is indepedent and self-manifesting. Now, moving on to the devotee being the cause of bhakti, two issues arise: 1) is it acceptable for the devotees to be partial, and 2) if bhakti is spread by the devotees' mercy, does that compromise bhakti's independent nature?

In reference to the first question, VCT cites SB 11.2.46 (the pdf has a typo, saying 11.3.46), the often-quoted verse discussing how a devotee interacts with different types of people. In accordance with that verse, VCT shows that partiality is the defining characteristic of madhyama bhaktas, and therefore not a fault.

Regarding the second point, VCT points out that the devotee's mercy causes bhakti, but that mercy could never be bestowed without bhakti, and therefore it is again bhakti that is causing bhakti, establishing it's independent nature. This seems along the same lines of Guru Maharaja often saying that bhakti comes from sadhu-sanga, but sadhu-sanga itself is bhakti.

Revisiting the concern from the previous section regarding Bhagavan's partiality, VCT says that in reality it is the devotee's partiality that gives bhakti, but the lord's mercy follows his devotees. (Of course, this whole situation assumes Bhagavan's partiality to his bhaktas anyway, so I don't think that it is intended to really paint Bhagavan as impartial.)

This reminds me of the last verse of guruvastakam as well as CC 2.19.151, which speaks about one receiving the seed of devotion by the mercy of guru and Krsna.

Madan Gopal Das - April 28, 2011 8:21 pm

All right! I was thinking about starting this up too... thanks Nitai!

I appreciated the point that bhakti comes from bhakti via the devotee, specifically the madhyama devotee who is partial in the way he/she distributes bhakti. Where would we be without the madhyama bhakta? And Krsna places himself in the hands of such devotees for distribution.

Guru-nistha Das - April 29, 2011 12:47 am

I came across a really cool verse from Chandogya Upanishad (7.19.1):

"When a person develops sraddha, he can think about a subject and understand it, whereas one cannot do so without sraddha. Indeed only a person who has sraddha can reflect upon anything. Therefore you must inquire very specifically about sraddha [. . .]"

Sraddha comes through the devotee, that's what the interaction between a madhyama bhakta and a kanistha bhakta is based on. The madhyama shares his/her sraddha. So without that transaction there is absolutely no chance for the sadhaka to understand and thus apply bhakti. If there ever was a verse that proved bhakti not to be an academic or intellectual excercise, this would be it.

Krsna Caitanya Das - April 29, 2011 12:55 pm

I came across a really cool verse from Chandogya Upanishad (7.19.1):

 

"When a person develops sraddha, he can think about a subject and understand it, whereas one cannot do so without sraddha. Indeed only a person who has sraddha can reflect upon anything. Therefore you must inquire very specifically about sraddha [. . .]"

 

Sraddha comes through the devotee, that's what the interaction between a madhyama bhakta and a kanistha bhakta is based on. The madhyama shares his/her sraddha. So without that transaction there is absolutely no chance for the sadhaka to understand and thus apply bhakti. If there ever was a verse that proved bhakti not to be an academic or intellectual excercise, this would be it.

I was just wondering about this last night. Why is it that so many devotees seem to have a lack of thoughtfulness in relation to so many topics? It appears from this verse that it may be a lack of sraddha that comes from a lack of meaningful personal association with a madhyama bhakta. It may be that new kanistha bhaktas are only getting a tiny bit of sraddha from older more experienced kanistha bhaktas and that may be one of the reasons that keeps the phenomenon of many "not being able to think about a subject and understand it" alive. Thanks for sharing this verse.

Krsna Caitanya Das - April 29, 2011 4:53 pm

And then when you have people with little faith who cannot think deeply about subjects and/or understand them properly trying to get most or all of their instructions from a book, you get a lot of misunderstandings and quote wars.

Bhakti-rasa - April 29, 2011 5:37 pm

And then when you have people with little faith who cannot think deeply about subjects and/or understand them properly trying to get most or all of their instructions from a book, you get a lot of misunderstandings and quote wars.

Seems like faith creates the room for contemplation - to be willing to rework one's conceptual framework around new information/knowledge - requires one to have faith in the source, otherwise, like you said Krsna Caitanya prabhu, the typical reaction would be to arm oneself with quotes that protect one's belief system, a type of "self-preservation" - preservation of the rules and concepts that make up the world in which the self has invested its identity. And if one does have faith, then there is a spontaneous acceptance of the new knowledge as the core of the belief system around which other things are then organized. This "organization" is the process of contemplation.

Nitaisundara Das - April 30, 2011 4:01 am

Very nice points!

I was just wondering about this last night. Why is it that so many devotees seem to have a lack of thoughtfulness in relation to so many topics? It appears from this verse that it may be a lack of sraddha that comes from a lack of meaningful personal association with a madhyama bhakta. It may be that new kanistha bhaktas are only getting a tiny bit of sraddha from older more experienced kanistha bhaktas and that may be one of the reasons that keeps the phenomenon of many "not being able to think about a subject and understand it" alive. Thanks for sharing this verse.

I think you are right. But I also think it is not unique to our times or to the west, which I thought might be slightly implied here. GM has often said the largest portion of any group will be the most Kanistha-like. Also, we see people who do seem to have had quite meaningful relationships with advanced personalities yet still maintain a very rudimentary conception, or worse. Some of Prabhupada's closest servants, for whom he expressed much affection, do not seem to have necessarily gone beyond the rigidity of their early thinking. Or if we look at Ananta Vasudeva. It seems pretty indisputable that Srila Bhaktisiddhanta appreciated him and held him in high regard, but he went way astray later.

Then again, I think some of the issues in this realm are more pronounced today because you have tangible institutions propping up leaders who sometimes turn out to be not even of upright character, what to speak of being madhyama-bhaktas. And further, although there are of course many unscrupulous leaders in India (including Gaudiyas), I think often times their external qualifications may be more, such as sastric knowledge. Unfortunately we find in the west sometimes leaders not only have a kanistha orientation but do not even have, again, for example, comprehensive sastric knowledge.

Swami - April 30, 2011 12:44 pm

In one sense the stages of bhakti are all developments of faith (sraddha) culminating in entering the "planets of faith," as Pujyapada SM sometimes referred to the paravyoma. Sri Jiva Goswamis writes that without ruci one cannot effectively engage in sasta-yukti, or properly reasoning about the import of scripture. He is saying the same thing as the Chandogya but using the word ruci instead of sraddha: svalpapi rucir eva syad bhakti-tattvavabodhika. The implication of such statements is that logic alone will not unlock the door to understanding sastra's import.

So why are so many devotees unable to think clearly about the import of sastra? Is it lack of faith/ruci? I would say it is due to weak faith (komala sraddha) because sraddha implies faith in sastra--sastriya sraddha--and the stronger one's faith the greater one's ability is to understand sastra. But other issues may also be at hand, such as aparadha. I think the real test is not so much one's ability or lack of ability to understand what one reads but one's ability to change one's thinking upon hearing the correct conclusions from a sadhu. On the one hand you have those who can change their thinking with sadhu sanga and on the other you have those who are adamantly against the proper conclusion found in the context of sadhu sanga. Many fall somewhere in between these two extremes.

Faith in sastra really leads to faith in sadhus because sastra stresses this over and over again. Bhakti comes for bhakti in the context of sadhu sanga. Yet we find many with great faith in sastra (Prabhupada's books only) and no faith in sadhus, but rather strong distrust of them. This is most unfortunate and a sign of weak faith in a dynamic sense of the term. Faith IS understanding that removes doubt and confusion. To the extent that we don't understand sastra's import we are not standing on a planet of faith.

Guru-nistha Das - May 1, 2011 4:12 am

More thoughts on sraddha:

sraddha is integrated knowledge, a spiritual "gut feeling". Our sraddha from our previous life has formed our disposition in this life so things automatically "make sense" to us if they are in line with our sraddha. And that's why it's uncomfortable to make progress because we have to welcome confusion and uncertainty in order to traverse paths that we haven't walked before. As ajata-ruci-sadhakas we have to constantly push beyond our current level of sraddha in order to move on since our sraddha is incomplete. We naturally run away form pain, so it makes sense that people resist progress because it hurts.

Gaura-Vijaya Das - May 1, 2011 4:48 pm

More thoughts on sraddha:

 

sraddha is integrated knowledge, a spiritual "gut feeling". Our sraddha from our previous life has formed our disposition in this life so things automatically "make sense" to us if they are in line with our sraddha. And that's why it's uncomfortable to make progress because we have to welcome confusion and uncertainty in order to traverse paths that we haven't walked before. As ajata-ruci-sadhakas we have to constantly push beyond our current level of sraddha in order to move on since our sraddha is incomplete. We naturally run away form pain, so it makes sense that people resist progress because it hurts.

Something along those lines from SSM:

"Coming into real connection with the infinite, he feels hopeless. He

thinks, "There is no limit to progress. Rather, as much as I come in

intimate connection with the infinite, I feel hopeless." The more we

advance, the more we find it unlimited, and finding it unlimited, we

become hopeless but we can't turn back. There is no possibility of

retracing our steps; we can only go ahead. This is the spirit of a

genuine devotee."

Madan Gopal Das - June 9, 2011 7:34 pm

I know we've all been busy, but I'm asking permission to speed this study up. I'm ahead of the last section we covered (1.6) but really wanting to steadily read this book. Where's everybody else at? Did you keep reading the book or have you paused since our last post 5 weeks ago?

Nitaisundara Das - June 10, 2011 5:34 am

I know we've all been busy, but I'm asking permission to speed this study up. I'm ahead of the last section we covered (1.6) but really wanting to steadily read this book. Where's everybody else at? Did you keep reading the book or have you paused since our last post 5 weeks ago?

I am too busy to initiate any discussions, but I will try to participate if someone else wants to get the ball rolling. Between services and summer classes I just won't be able to right now.

Bhrigu - June 20, 2011 10:47 am

Please do speed up, Madanji!

Madan Gopal Das - July 21, 2011 1:08 pm

I keep hesitating to start this again because I don't want to summarize what I've read previously, and I'm not reading more because I don't want to get too far ahead. So, since no one is writing, I'm just going to invite you all along to where I'm currently at and we can start from there. :Big Grin:

We missed some good stuff, so I'll just add one point that really stuck with me and I have heard Guru Maharaj discuss...

In 1.11 "Material desires are not an unsurpassable obstacle to bhakti", ADB cites VCT's Sarartha-varsini comments on api cet su-duracaro (gita 9.30):

"Krishna speaks this verse to reveal that his affection for his devotees is natural and spontaneous, and does not go away even if a devotee commits very sinful acts. Instead of abandoning such a devotee, Krishna elevates even him. If one should ask what kinds of devotees are eligible for such treatment, the Lord says, "One who worships me with undivided commitment" (ananya-bhak). This means they do not worship any other gods, nor take shelter of karma, jnana or any other path but bhakti, nor desire anything other than Krishna. Such a devotee is considered as a sadhu, even if he habitually engages in violent acts, has illicit sex, or steals.

 

The word mantavya has an imperative sense, which means that one must consider him saintly. As this is the Lord's direct order, non-acceptance of it is offensive. There is hence no room for doubt as to whether or how one can be a sadhu and yet commit such sinful acts.

 

One may ask: "Should we not consider a person a sadhu to the extent that he is doing bhajan, while considering him a sinner to the extent that he is engaged in sinful acts?" The emphatic particle eva after sadhuh means that he should not be considered a sadhu only in part, but in all respects. In other words, one should never dwell on his sinfulness.

 

The reason that he is still to be considered a sadhu is that his fundamental intentions are correct (samyag vyavasitah). This means that he thinks, "I will never give up the exclusive devotion of the Lord, even though I may have to go to hell or take an animal life for my sinful habits, which I find so difficult to give up." Since this intention is glorious, one should recognize him for that alone.

Madan Gopal Das - July 27, 2011 7:58 pm

still interested? I'm doubting sometimes whether T.V. is a frequently viewed place for our sangha anymore, or if starting a facebook study group might be a better format...

Anyway, to summarize VCT covered the complete independence of bhakti (1.9), the pitfalls of karma and jnana paths (1.10), material desires are not an unsurpassable obstacle (1.11), jnana alone never leads to bhakti (1.12), and I'm currently reading 1.13, bhakti sometimes accepts a position of service to jnana.

In this verse VCT points out that just as Vamanadeva accepted a seemingly inferior position to Indra (Indranuja - younger brother of Indra), when we see scripture seeming to emphasize jnana over bhakti we should understand that bhakti-devi is showing compassion by subordinating herself to jnana.

ADB makes the point that bhakti is beyond the modes, yet she manifests in sattva-guna in order to award liberation to the jnani's. Because the hearts of jnani's are polluted by desire for liberation, bhakti devi cannot manifest her nirguna form which awards realization of the personal feature of God to niskama devotees. In the mode of goodness she manifests as saguna to fulfill the (sa-kama) jnani's desires for liberation.

So, read up! Any thoughts on this or previous verses?

Braja-sundari Dasi - July 28, 2011 3:15 pm

still interested? I'm doubting sometimes whether T.V. is a frequently viewed place for our sangha anymore, or if starting a facebook study group might be a better format...

 

Anyway, to summarize VCT covered the complete independence of bhakti (1.9), the pitfalls of karma and jnana paths (1.10), material desires are not an unsurpassable obstacle (1.11), jnana alone never leads to bhakti (1.12), and I'm currently reading 1.13, bhakti sometimes accepts a position of service to jnana.

 

In this verse VCT points out that just as Vamanadeva accepted a seemingly inferior position to Indra (Indranuja - younger brother of Indra), when we see scripture seeming to emphasize jnana over bhakti we should understand that bhakti-devi is showing compassion by subordinating herself to jnana.

 

ADB makes the point that bhakti is beyond the modes, yet she manifests in sattva-guna in order to award liberation to the jnani's. Because the hearts of jnani's are polluted by desire for liberation, bhakti devi cannot manifest her nirguna form which awards realization of the personal feature of God to niskama devotees. In the mode of goodness she manifests as saguna to fulfill the (sa-kama) jnani's desires for liberation.

 

So, read up! Any thoughts on this or previous verses?

Still interested yes!!! but I have to go back since we`ve finished the book some time ago.

Facebook is nice but... sometimes too much distraction

Madan Gopal Das - July 28, 2011 4:06 pm

Still interested yes!!! but I have to go back since we`ve finished the book some time ago.

Facebook is nice but... sometimes too much distraction

Finished eh? :Big Grin: Thanks for your interest anyway!

Hari Bhakti - July 28, 2011 6:50 pm

Yes for me too. Thanks for starting this back up Madan Gopal!

Nitaisundara Das - July 28, 2011 8:50 pm

I agree that here is beter than FB, Hopefully that means I will participate here, too...

Braja-sundari Dasi - July 28, 2011 11:11 pm

One may ask: "Should we not consider a person a sadhu to the extent that he is doing bhajan, while considering him a sinner to the extent that he is engaged in sinful acts?" The emphatic particle eva after sadhuh means that he should not be considered a sadhu only in part, but in all respects. In other words, one should never dwell on his sinfulness.

 

The reason that he is still to be considered a sadhu is that his fundamental intentions are correct (samyag vyavasitah). This means that he thinks, "I will never give up the exclusive devotion of the Lord, even though I may have to go to hell or take an animal life for my sinful habits, which I find so difficult to give up." Since this intention is glorious, one should recognize him for that alone.

It seems that many devotees have troubles to properly understand these statements. Some are allowing abuse to be done to themselves or others on its basis and call aparadhi anyone who dares say it was wrong. Some are doing just the opposite- they criticize everyone who does not meet their high standards, however misunderstood sometimes. And for a neofite like me as well it was sometimes very difficult to properly judge the situation and act accordingly...

Some people, like ritviks for instance, may have very good intentions but they commit Vaisnava aparadha due to ignorance. Should we still consider them sadhu?

Gauravani Dasa - July 29, 2011 12:45 am

I think the sins that ADB is referring to are categorically different than Vaisnava aparadha. samyag vyavasitah seems to imply very deep humility so I can't imagine such a sadhu would have malice in his heart. I would disagree that ritviks have good intentions, based on my experience.

Since "Material desires are not an unsurpassable obstacle to bhakti," does anyone know of a scriptural definition of aparadha that would distinguish it from sin, along with the effects of both on bhakti?

Some people, like ritviks for instance, may have very good intentions but they commit Vaisnava aparadha due to ignorance. Should we still consider them sadhu?

Madan Gopal Das - July 29, 2011 3:42 am

Since "Material desires are not an unsurpassable obstacle to bhakti," does anyone know of a scriptural definition of aparadha that would distinguish it from sin, along with the effects of both on bhakti?

I think you rightly answered Braja-sundari in making a stark distinction between aparadha and material desires that a sadhu is unable to give up. I am reminded of GM characterizing material desires as "sins of the flesh", whereas aparadha is like a "sin of the soul." Bhakti goes to people with material desire all the time, that is her mercy, and by such grace material desire can be easily surpassed. On the other hand aparadha is the very opposition of the mercy of bhakti-devi's descent. We will read later in this book (3.1) ADB explain aparadha thus: "The root rAdh means satisfaction; the prefix apa adds the sense of moving away. In other worlds, any act that causes the dissatisfaction of the Lord, the Holy Name, the guru, or the Vaishnavas is called aparAdha."

So we can see that there is a world of difference between having a heart simultaneously full of material desire and deep repentance (vital ingredient demonstrating sincerity) where bhakti-devi will clean house (heart) and the sadhu will "quickly become riteous" in comparison to holding aparadha, a behavior opposing the agents of mercy mentioned above. I've also heard aparadha loosely translated as "against Radha."

Madan Gopal Das - July 29, 2011 1:53 pm

It seems that many devotees have troubles to properly understand these statements. Some are allowing abuse to be done to themselves or others on its basis and call aparadhi anyone who dares say it was wrong.

Regarding this first part, I think level of adhikara makes people prone to interpret or use scripture and the statements of acaryas according to their level of advancement. For example, someone who allows abuse to go on may be feigning or forcing humility (uttama who sees no evil) but in actuality they are lacking healthy doubt and discrimination of the madhyama-adhikari. On the other hand a madhyama who is leaning too far in the direction of discrimination and neglecting the mercy/magic/love features of our philosophy may disregard such prescriptions and persecute a sadhu who may be struggling with material desires.

In allowing oneself to be abused, I think this is a classic pitfall which stems from confusion of humility and confidence. We so often think that the less we protest, the more we are advanced. And I think it is in the kanishta devotees nature to want to jump over that icky, proud, messy madhyama stage where devotees exhibit some confidence, think about hard stuff and life isn't so easy, black and white.

I think of it like this: The kanistha is aware of abuse to oneself but artificially forces tolerance on himself and allows the abuse to continue unchallenged, messing with his psychology in the process. A madhyama discriminates and does not allow himself to be abused. Sometimes the madhyama will make a big stink and protest and the observing kanistha's will call that bhakta proud because he defends himself from injury. A higher level madhyama may tolerate some personal injury while educating others about what abuse may look like, not losing his cool about his own situation... (We want to be that kind of devotee). The uttama in contrast to the other two is genuinely unaware of abuse to himself. There is no false humility or tolerance, and there is also no education of others. Observers will go on evaluating how the uttama reacts or does not react to the abuse and make interpretations, but the uttama is disengaged from that mental conversation. His mind is elsewhere.

These are complicated issues and so it is good that we are studying a book like this to help us understand where we're at "on the map" and we also have good association to help us sort through things.

Thanks for participating!

Braja-sundari Dasi - July 30, 2011 1:12 am

 

.

I think of it like this: The kanistha is aware of abuse to oneself but artificially forces tolerance on himself and allows the abuse to continue unchallenged, messing with his psychology in the process. A madhyama discriminates and does not allow himself to be abused. Sometimes the madhyama will make a big stink and protest and the observing kanistha's will call that bhakta proud because he defends himself from injury. A higher level madhyama may tolerate some personal injury while educating others about what abuse may look like, not losing his cool about his own situation... (We want to be that kind of devotee). The uttama in contrast to the other two is genuinely unaware of abuse to himself. There is no false humility or tolerance, and there is also no education of others. Observers will go on evaluating how the uttama reacts or does not react to the abuse and make interpretations, but the uttama is disengaged from that mental conversation. His mind is elsewhere.

 

These are complicated issues and so it is good that we are studying a book like this to help us understand where we're at "on the map" and we also have good association to help us sort through things.

 

Thanks for participating!

Yes, it`s complicated. I`m not totally convinced that only madhyama would object to abuse. Kanisthas are also under different modes of nature. I also cannot imagine madhyama devotee persecuting a sadhu. I guess sometimes misunderstandings happen, like in case of some sadhu who did not have regard for Bhaktivinoda Thakura because he did not wear kanthi mala. But I would think these are exceptions among advanced devotees.

Swami - July 30, 2011 2:49 am

Regarding this first part, I think level of adhikara makes people prone to interpret or use scripture and the statements of acaryas according to their level of advancement. For example, someone who allows abuse to go on may be feigning or forcing humility (uttama who sees no evil) but in actuality they are lacking healthy doubt and discrimination of the madhyama-adhikari. On the other hand a madhyama who is leaning too far in the direction of discrimination and neglecting the mercy/magic/love features of our philosophy may disregard such prescriptions and persecute a sadhu who may be struggling with material desires.

 

In allowing oneself to be abused, I think this is a classic pitfall which stems from confusion of humility and confidence. We so often think that the less we protest, the more we are advanced. And I think it is in the kanishta devotees nature to want to jump over that icky, proud, messy madhyama stage where devotees exhibit some confidence, think about hard stuff and life isn't so easy, black and white.

I think of it like this: The kanistha is aware of abuse to oneself but artificially forces tolerance on himself and allows the abuse to continue unchallenged, messing with his psychology in the process. A madhyama discriminates and does not allow himself to be abused. Sometimes the madhyama will make a big stink and protest and the observing kanistha's will call that bhakta proud because he defends himself from injury. A higher level madhyama may tolerate some personal injury while educating others about what abuse may look like, not losing his cool about his own situation... (We want to be that kind of devotee). The uttama in contrast to the other two is genuinely unaware of abuse to himself. There is no false humility or tolerance, and there is also no education of others. Observers will go on evaluating how the uttama reacts or does not react to the abuse and make interpretations, but the uttama is disengaged from that mental conversation. His mind is elsewhere.

 

These are complicated issues and so it is good that we are studying a book like this to help us understand where we're at "on the map" and we also have good association to help us sort through things.

 

Thanks for participating!

Good analysis. More devotees should participate in this. Very pertinent. Madan Gopala you should write a short article on this.

Madan Gopal Das - August 1, 2011 12:58 pm

Madan Gopala you should write a short article on this.

I'll try Guru Maharaj. I need a basis to form the ideas around...

On with the next verse!

Madan Gopal Das - August 26, 2011 1:50 pm

Sorry for the delay, got focused on ritual study for a couple weeks and then festival. I'll start this up again. Back to home, back to sastra!

Braja-sundari Dasi - September 26, 2011 10:08 am

In recent Swami call Guru Maharaj said Audaryavasis are discussing this book, Any thought to share anyone?

Madan Gopal Das - September 26, 2011 12:43 pm

In recent Swami call Guru Maharaj said Audaryavasis are discussing this book, Any thought to share anyone?

Over the past week or two I've been wanting to continue the discussion starting from the "second shower of nectar" but am considering the best format for continuing. I've often thought about continuing on Facebook as it seems that Tattva-viveka is not getting much traffic lately. Everyone is on FB and spends a lot of time there, so I thought it would be a good way to "krsna-ize" one's FB time. That is what I enjoy the most there anyway, philosophical discussion... BUT... I talked to Gauravani the other day about the pro's and con's of FB vs. TV and he said that one major drawback with FB is that they own the content. On TV we own the content. In considering preservation of discussions for example, TV is able to be archived (I think). This is useful for example in the long thread that ultimately generated "O My Friend". On the contrary, the discussion of bhavollasa on FB is difficult to preserve.

I also talked with Babhru last night as I saw that he has been starting a BRS study group on FB. The "pro" of FB is that there is a wider audience even if you do a "closed" group, because I find that a lot of people we all have association with on FB are interested in our sangha, how we think and like to participate in discussions with GM; "favorable" kind of people who could be reached/brought in more on FB while TV is totally exclusive. You don't even know about it unless you know about it. So, I started a Madhurya Kadambini study group on FB but haven't done anything yet. I guess I'm still mental about these pros/cons. I asked Babhru about Madhurya Kadambini and he mentioned they are reading it in the morning. My guess is that its a short reading/no discussion after the morning arati and songs.

So, if anybody's out there in TV land, can you give some input whether you want to continue discussing MK here or on FB?

Gauravani Dasa - September 26, 2011 12:55 pm

Madan is correct about TV being much easier to archive than FB. But I think for most people, FB is more often accessed than TV.

Seems like we would have to decide which is more important: having a potentially lively discussion on FB without the ability to archive the discussion, or have less participants on TV but the ability to archive (and search) those discussions.

Nitai and I talked about doing the same thing for comments on the Harmonist (forcing them to be FB comments) but we would have the same issue of "giving" those comments to FB.

Another idea to think about is explaining how people can "subscribe" to the forums on TV. That way, anytime someone posts something, you'll get an email.

Braja-sundari Dasi - September 26, 2011 1:29 pm

There is one more thing to consider- on FB there is more people but most of them do not have the book. So it is exclusive anyway. Here we have group of people that have the book and started reading it. Of course anyone can read available versions of Madhurya Kadambini and try to follow the discussion.

Another idea would be reposting discussion from TV on FB

Madan Gopal Das - September 27, 2011 12:19 pm

Okay, I think the lack of participation here necessitates a try at FB. I think the majority of the participants will be our sangha and people who have the book, and others can participate based on comments or summary of the contents. Here goes!

Audarya-lila Dasa - September 28, 2011 4:48 pm

I don't like facebook and don't find the overall format very friendly or easy. I would like to participate in the discussion on MK, but won't do so if it's on facebook. Just one persons opinion/comment

Braja-sundari Dasi - September 28, 2011 5:08 pm

I don't like facebook and don't find the overall format very friendly or easy. I would like to participate in the discussion on MK, but won't do so if it's on facebook. Just one persons opinion/comment

I guess we can repost it here. It would help to save the discussion for future and will make it easier to access interesting posts when discusssion becomes really long.

Hari Bhakti - October 1, 2011 7:07 pm

I vote for T-V too, but will participate at either venue.

Madan Gopal Das - October 3, 2011 12:58 pm

I don't want to lose you Audarya-lila! I forced you onto the FB study group against your will. Hope you'll reconsider.

I'm partial to TV and love the sanga that we've enjoyed here. Using the FB venue is primarily to widen the circle a bit, hopefully exposing a few interested people to our thinking.

Madan Gopal Das - February 13, 2013 2:19 pm

I'm going to pick up this study of Madhurya Kadambini that we had going on. We'll start from the second wave (chapter). For a refresher, below is the last post we had on the FB group which was an extension of this thread: Visvanath Cakravartipada ki jaya!

To catch us up to the second shower (chapter), a brief review of VCT's (Vishvanath Chakravarti Thakur) points in the first chapter:

1.1: mangalacarana

1.2: Obeisances to Rupa Goswami

1.3: Krishna descends into the devotee's mind and senses

1.4: Like Krishna, Bhakti is completely independent

(there is emphasis here that bhakti-devi's descent, or grace upon the jiva is causeless. The term yadrcchaya - "luck" is elaborated upon and emphasized in this regard.)

1.5: What does it mean that bhakti appears "of its own will?"

1.6 Bhakti in one devotee's heart is the cause of bhakti in another's.

(how bhakti spreads, how we get lucky!)

1.7: Krishna turns his mercy giving potency over to his devotees.

1.8: Can pious works ever be a contributing factor in bhakti?

(further elaboration on the independence of bhakti, now distinguished from karma-marga)

1.9: The complete independence of bhakti

1.10: Pitfalls of the karma and jnana paths

1.11 Material desires are not an unsurpassable obstacle to bhakti

(this is a very sweet and encouraging section. *see comment below.)

1.12 Jnana alone never leads to bhakti

1.13 Bhakti sometimes accepts a position of service to jnana.

(clarification here how bhakti is independent, yet manifests in sattva-guna, subordinating herself to jnana in order to award the jnani's liberation. Devotees free from karma/jnana influences associate directly with bhakti in her pure nirguna form)

Madan Gopal Das - February 13, 2013 2:21 pm

the comment referred to on 1.11:

1.11 "Material desires are not an unsurpassable obstacle to bhakti", ADB cites VCT's Sarartha-varsini comments on api cet su-duracaro (Gita 9.30):

"Krishna speaks this verse to reveal that his affection for his devotees is natural and spontaneous, and does not go away even if a devotee commits very sinful acts. Instead of abandoning such a devotee, Krishna elevates even him. If one should ask what kinds of devotees are eligible for such treatment, the Lord says, "One who worships me with undivided commitment" (ananya-bhak). This means they do not worship any other gods, nor take shelter of karma, jnana or any other path but bhakti, nor desire anything other than Krishna. Such a devotee is considered as a sadhu, even if he habitually engages in violent acts, has illicit sex, or steals.

The word mantavya has an imperative sense, which means that one must consider him saintly. As this is the Lord's direct order, non-acceptance of it is offensive. There is hence no room for doubt as to whether or how one can be a sadhu and yet commit such sinful acts.

One may ask: "Should we not consider a person a sadhu to the extent that he is doing bhajan, while considering him a sinner to the extent that he is engaged in sinful acts?" The emphatic particle eva after sadhuh means that he should not be considered a sadhu only in part, but in all respects. In other words, one should never dwell on his sinfulness.

The reason that he is still to be considered a sadhu is that his fundamental intentions are correct (samyag vyavasitah). This means that he thinks, "I will never give up the exclusive devotion of the Lord, even though I may have to go to hell or take an animal life for my sinful habits, which I find so difficult to give up." Since this intention is glorious, one should recognize him for that alone.

Madan Gopal Das - February 13, 2013 2:27 pm

Since this intention is glorious, one should recognize him for that alone.

Reminds me of GM's reference to SSM(?) that a devotee should not be judged by past or present, but by aspiration. In bhakti, one will attain what one desires.

Gauravani Dasa - February 13, 2013 3:15 pm

This verse is very interesting to reflect upon. It seems to imply that there are better criteria for using discrimination in association than "Is this devotee engaged in sinful activity?" and instead being able to identify another devotee's intention/aspiration.

In a recent talk, Guru Maharaja pointed out that one of the anti-female-guru arguments implies that bhakti is dependent upon fulfillment of varnasrama. This is not suddha bhakti and therefore those that use the argument could be considered practicing and preaching karma-misra-bhakti. (There is another term for this but I can't remember what it is )

So the association of a devotee whose ideal is suddha bhakti is more desirable that one whose ideal is bhakti mixed with karma, jnana, or yoga, regardless of the degree material desire. Is that correct?

Madan Gopal Das - February 13, 2013 3:53 pm

great points! i like the positive use of discrimination to understand a devotees' aspiration, rather than use of discrimination to analyze a devotees material engagement. although the discrimination of the madhyama is praised, it is often praised in contemporary gaudiya circles as a quality which protects the devotee from being "cheated" by devotees of lesser adhikara. i like your suggestion better.

yes, certainly the sanga of the aspiring suddha bhakta (despite material desires) is by far superior to a misra bhakta who appears to be free of material desires. the thing is, misra means mixed, so theoretically a "mixed" devotee is also aspiring for suddha bhakti, but is sidetracked or confused about that goal by mistaking karmic rewards or liberation (jnana) as the goal. They may not even recognize (as in the case of contemporaries emphasizing varnasrama) that they are displacing bhakti for karma. i think we all have experience of people who may flaunt a strict following of the "morality" of gaudiya vaisnavism - dogma - but whose aspiration seems a bit off mark. an aspiring suddha bhaktas material desires will quickly fade, due to the mentality VCT describes. Suddha bhakti's purity plants that mentality in the devotee. improper understanding of the goal of suddha bhakti may take longer to overcome. therefore the association of those with suddha bhakti aspiration is SO valuable.

Gauravani Dasa - February 13, 2013 5:25 pm

therefore the association of those with suddha bhakti aspiration is SO valuable.

Yes, I am thinking more and more that this verse emphasizes sadhu sanga with suddha bhaktas, in addition to Krishna's sweet qualities in relation to those suddha bhaktas.

Gopala Dasa - February 13, 2013 6:46 pm

Reminds me of GM's reference to SSM(?) that a devotee should not be judged by past or present, but by aspiration. In bhakti, one will attain what one desires.

Yes, that is one of SSM's points. It comes up in one form in Golden Volcano, but perhaps other places, too:

"A man should be judged by his ideal, his aspiration for higher things. If the ideal is great, the man is great. What should be the highest ideal? Love. Love is the supreme thing. It is the most rare and precious thing. Divine love and beauty is the highest thing ever known to the world, and those who can catch this are really possessed of good intellect (su-medhasa). And one who possesses this highest ideal should be considered a man of higher order. He alone can understand and practice samkirtana. He alone can take to this path, this process of satisfying the Supreme Being by chanting the Holy Name of the Lord."

Madan Gopal Das - February 13, 2013 7:14 pm

Thanks for that reference Gopala! I thought I recently read another instance from SSM on Harmonist...

As soon as I get a chance I'll post something from MK 2.2 or 3 which is as far as we got in discussion.

Gopala Dasa - February 13, 2013 7:22 pm

 

So the association of a devotee whose ideal is suddha bhakti is more desirable that one whose ideal is bhakti mixed with karma, jnana, or yoga, regardless of the degree material desire. Is that correct?

I would agree. I think that the person with suddha bhakti as his ideal would probably end up becoming a moral person (bhavati dharma-atma) anyway, but that such righteousness would be an imperfect indicator and not a necessary condition of ananya-bhak. I am checking out GM's comments on Gita 9.30-31, which ABD cites in his commentary.

Madan Gopal Das - February 16, 2013 3:35 am

okay, lets jump right in... 2.3

the bhakti-lata sprouts two leaves; klesagni and subhada

practice of sadhana bhakti (raganuga or vaidhi) burns up (agni) five kinds of klesa (distress):

ignorance (avidya)

bodily identification (asmita)

attachment (raga)

aversion (dvesa)

fear of death (abhinivesa).

four types of sins, fructified (prarabdha), not yet fructified (aprarabdha), subtle (rudha), and seed (bija) are also included in klesa.

sadhana bhakti also bestows (da) auspiciousness (subha), awarding the devotee with good qualities. reference is made to the SB verse "all the qualities of the demigods reside in the devotee" 5.8.12

REALLY interesting commentary here where ADB references VCT's discussion of klesa to the yoga sutras of Patanjali. BRS is referenced re. the four types of sin.

Discussion?

Braja-sundari Dasi - February 16, 2013 10:55 pm

I have to refresh my memory by reading this chapter again.

The word abhinivesa has so many meanings...

Abhinivesa (Sanskrit) [from abhi towards + ni down + the verbal root vis to enter] To enter into completely; application, intentness, devotion, tenacity, determination to effect a purpose or attain an object. In the Bhagavad-Gita, when used with manas (mind) and atman (self) it means to devote one's attention to. <br style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px;">In the Sankhya and Yoga systems, abhinivesa or tenacity for life is the last of the five hindrances (klessa). W. Q. Judge defines it as "idle terror causing death" -- a permissible extension of meaning (WG 1).

Not long ago we were talking here at Madhuvan about anarthas and I think abhinivesa was mentioned in this context as 'anarthas coming from one`s aquired nature".

Yet definition of pure bhakti seems to not condemn the fear of death, leaving it as the only possible motivation other then pure love for addressing God - "anyabhilasita sunyam". That sounds like pure devotee can be still afraid of death...

Gopala Dasa - February 17, 2013 9:10 pm

I have to refresh my memory by reading this chapter again.

 

The word abhinivesa has so many meanings...

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Not long ago we were talking here at Madhuvan about anarthas and I think abhinivesa was mentioned in this context as 'anarthas coming from one`s aquired nature".

Yet definition of pure bhakti seems to not condemn the fear of death, leaving it as the only possible motivation other then pure love for addressing God - "anyabhilasita sunyam". That sounds like pure devotee can be still afraid of death...

I think that abhnivesa is considered to be the very strongest of the kleshas, as it could be seen as a type of "dvesa" (aversion), yet it instead receives its own category. In the sutra referenced in the commentary (II.9), it is said that even the learned (vidhusa) experience fear of death despite, at least theoretically, knowing better. Even infants fear death, so one idea is that the samskara for abhnivesa carries over from life to life in a very deeply ingrained way -- perhaps, Braja-sundara, to your point about "anarthas from "one's acquired nature."

Klesaghni is one of the qualities of sadhana bhakti given in BRS, of course, so not quite sure how to answer your question about the pure devotee exhibiting fear of death (or something that looks like it).

Shyamananda Das - February 20, 2013 7:31 pm

This came up the other day when I was transcribing a lecture, an interesting parallel to this topic:

"Saranagati is sixfold. Two aspects apply to sadhana bhakti, and incremently, those two and two more pertain largely to bhava-bhakti and those four and two more into prema-bhakti. We should be very concerned with what is anukula and what is pratikula, what is favorable, what is unfavorable. By applying that we can see the dualities of our mind and what we think is good, what we think is bad, what we think is happy, what we think is sad, will be transcended, by embracing what is favorable for Krishna's service, and rejecting what is unfavorable for Krishna's service. The full sense of this anukula/pratikula will bring you to the spiritual platform. See where we are and where we have to go."

-Baltimore: Main lecture, continued. Sep 7, 2002.

Atmananda Dasa - March 17, 2013 4:24 am

Since this study group started ADB's MK is now available online: http://www.scribd.com/mobile/doc/77183976

Gauravani Dasa - March 17, 2013 11:44 am

Thank you Atmananda!

Braja-sundari Dasi - March 19, 2013 3:15 am

I have hard time understanding the difference between aprarabdha, kuta and bija... Is aprarabdha dormant karma? And bija desire or propensity that exist on subconscious level but may or may not turn into prarabdha this lifetime? About kuta, Ananta Das Babaji says it is aggregate of aprarabdha- what does it mean? How is it different from bija? In a sense they are all aprarabdha

Braja-sundari Dasi - May 22, 2013 8:35 pm

Gaurasundara was giving a class the other day and he gave explenation that made me understand it more. Apradabdha karma is dormant karma. When it matures more it becomes propensity (kuta) and from that desire (bija) is born. And bija leads to papam, sin, which is prarabdha karma.

Yet prarabdha karma is not only sins but also our bodily/mental features. I wonder whether manifestation of these also goes through the same stages? In New Age`y circles they claim that everyone choses to have particular body before being born (that means for instance disabled people are born as such because that had such desire)

Madan Gopal Das - May 23, 2013 12:07 am

My understanding is that prarabdha is manifest, right here and now karma. It does not go through stages but is rather the final stage. As for the idea that one can choose the body, yes, in a sense the prarabdha karma (body) is the gift of nature fulfilling our desire. But that choice is not as free as say shopping for a new car; pick what you like, what color, etc., instead a body is made for us according to our very complicated desires to enjoy material nature.

Madan Gopal Das - May 23, 2013 12:52 am

2.4: Though klesagni and subhada "leaves" appear on the bhakti lata simultaneously, they may unfurl at different speeds. In other words, klesa's may be present and not much apparent auspiciousness, or vice versa. SB 11.2.42 cited in a similar way to explain that satisfaction, relief from hunger and nourishment don't immediately appear in one mouthful, but rather in the process of eating - every little bit. Another important point is that advanced souls can understand the progress being made by a devotee. I have heard GM several times say that devotees often cant understand how they are progressing, but the more advanced devotees can see.

Atmananda Dasa - October 20, 2013 10:18 pm

Are there plans to continue with Madhurya Kadambini?

Madan Gopal Das - October 21, 2013 12:50 am

sure, why not! gimme a bit and I'll try to get on that...

Shyamananda Das - October 21, 2013 10:08 pm

I saw the other day that Vraja Kishor das has published a study guide on it.

http://vicdicara.wordpress.com/tag/madhurya-kadambini/

Swami - October 23, 2013 10:37 am

I did not look at the link to Vraja Kishore's study guide, but I saw some of his recent blogs on Facebook and was disappointed by his understanding on some points.

Kanailal Das - October 25, 2013 5:31 pm

Calling Vraja Kishor's summary a study guide is generous. Having purchased and read his book I'd characterize it more as a simple summary -- but certainly not a companion piece designed to provoke deeper thought or understanding. With all due respect to his efforts, I don't know as I can even state I feel as though I've read MK or have a better understanding of it for having done so.

Guru-nistha Das - October 26, 2013 3:46 pm

Vrindaranya and I had a debate with him last year about free will and how it relates to jivas "deciding" to accept bhakti in their hearts. it all related to MK and the term yaddrcha that is explained in the first chapter. His understanding was not in line with our Guru Maharaja or with unbiased shastra-yukti either, for that matter. Later I saw

an excerpt on FB from his book discussing yadrccha. He put our arguments in the mouth of some neophyte devotee and then "defeated" them through the words of some sadhu man who's apparantly a character in the book (?).

Gauravani Dasa - October 27, 2013 1:07 pm

Gurunisha, do you mind summarizing your debate on yadrccha?

Guru-nistha Das - October 28, 2013 2:48 am

He was basically saying that the jiva must initially want to accept bhakti in her heart because Krishna is always ready to give bhakti to the devotees, so in his mind the only sensible reason why all jivas are not getting bhakti is because they do not want to accept it in their hearts.

Here's an excerpt of what he wrote:

"I think we shouldn't philosophize to an extent that contradicts common sense. What I mean is that we are talking about love. If Krishna has to give me something before I can even decide to want to love him, that's like date-rape. I don't think I need a pill or something to be convinced that I want to develop love for Krishna. I think the freewill inherent in the Jiva is given from the beginning for this very purpose."

I find it interesting that he used the term common sense. I feel that what he really meant was a human-centric sense that makes sense from our point of view.

This point about limited free will seems to be really hard for Western devotees. I think it comes down to the same issue that the anadi-karma issue comes down to: it seems unfair on God's part that we didn't have an initial choice in the matter of either ending up in the sristhi or loving Krishna. But as we know by Guru Maharaja's grace, it's much more problematic to think that we decided to come to the material world and thus are incapable of loving Krishna.

Kanailal, since you have Vraja Kisjor's book, if you have time would you be interested in pulling out that part where he is talking about this very issue? I'd be interested in what he wrote.

Guru-nistha Das - October 28, 2013 2:54 am

I should mention that what he is referring to with "Krishna having to give me something before I can even decide to want to love him" was my point about the initial contact with bhakti being ajata-sukriti, which means unknowingly accumulating sukriti. Unknowing by definition means that you don't will something but that it happens to you without your knowledge of it. It's not a voluntary act or desire. It's simply good fortune. But VK argued that yadriccha does not mean good fortune but will.

And his point about date-rape; by the same logic existence itself is like date-rape then! We can never decide whether we wanted to exist in the first place. I feel like my free will has been tampered with here!

Gauravani Dasa - October 28, 2013 11:58 am

He was basically saying that the jiva must initially want to accept bhakti in her heart because Krishna is always ready to give bhakti to the devotees, so in his mind the only sensible reason why all jivas are not getting bhakti is because they do not want to accept it in their hearts.

How would we know what bhakti is without coming in contact with a sadhu or his/her students? It sounds like VK is assuming that we would (somehow) know enough about it to get involved and our initial understanding of bhakti is enough.

Madan Gopal Das - October 28, 2013 2:52 pm

Funny that you are discussing these ideas of Vraja Kishor's, because I had a conversation with a couple of ISKCON devotees after GM's talk the other night that mirrored exactly how Gurunistha is explaining Vraja Kishor's misunderstandings. These devotees are very favorable to GM and I was able to make some good points, but its interesting how people are conditioned by a certain preaching within ISKCON about freewill. I remember the idea also being drilled into me that "love means free will", choice, that God can't force the jivas to love him and therefore they have independence (can therefore leave the spiritual world to enjoy on their own) etc. The point that is not understood very well is how very infinitesimal the will of the jiva actually is.

This conversation the other night started with some questions they had about the (non)fall off the jiva. In explaining the nature of the tatastha sakti, I found myself speaking strongly that the will of the jiva is actually very limited. We are conditioned by the energy that we are associated with; maya sakti or svarupa sakti. So in regards to VK's point about date rape, it seems to me that it comes from a huge overestimation of the power of the jiva. The truth of the matter is that the jiva is exploiting (think I'd prefer to get away from VK's shock value date rape idea) itself in association with maya shakti. The svarupa sakti, through the guru parampara, provides an opportunity to associate with a different energy, and then that energy will influence the jiva to free itself from bondage. Svarupa sakti is in no way forced upon the jiva, but rather an opportunity for freedom is given.

Similarly with the idea of anadi karma that Gurunistha made the connection to - these devotees were consistently fighting the idea of anadi karma with their conditioned understanding of free will. The complaints are always "that doesn't seem fair that we suffer through lifetimes just for God's lila of saving the jivas," or "its not fair that the jiva gets no choice in the matter of where it goes, material world or spiritual world." I had to consistently make the point that it is not a question of before, because this is the way it has always been - anadi, and if you accept that and the fact that there was no choice you can start to think of the jiva's existence in a different way. You can actually start to understand the concept of mercy better when you understand the jiva's dependent nature.

The more power that you think the jiva has choice, independence, the more it appears that a great injustice has been done by God by either forcing the jiva against its will into conditioned life, or forcing the jiva against its will into spiritual life. The more you recognize the very minute independence of the jiva and the fact that it is conditioned by the energy it associates with, the more you can understand that the freedom of the jiva actually develops only in association with the spiritual energy, and that opportunity is awarded only by grace.

Gopala Dasa - October 28, 2013 3:26 pm

Great post, Madan. Fairness basically means no love. Love is completely biased and "unfair." It doesn’t adhere to some predictable, mathematical scheme. It can’t be controlled. It overrides justice. VK’s interpretation almost amounts to calling for justice in the face of mercy, which I think is an ugly position (made uglier by his language choices). Let me decide whether to accept mercy. Really?

Guru-nistha Das - October 28, 2013 4:17 pm

 

How would we know what bhakti is without coming in contact with a sadhu or his/her students? It sounds like VK is assuming that we would (somehow) know enough about it to get involved and our initial understanding of bhakti is enough.

I think here another misunderstanding steps in: that bhakti is inherent in the jiva. You connect with that inherent feeling inside of you and a yearning for bhakti comes to the surface. Then, by Krishna's arrangement you will meet a sadhu and the rest is history.

Madan Gopal Das - October 28, 2013 4:33 pm

Or, similarly the misunderstanding that you were once a gopi (for example) in Goloka and misused your independence, came here to the material world where your spiritual identity has been "dormant" or "covered" - jivera svarupa haya krsnera nitya dasa / nitya siddha krsna prema... As you become frustrated by trying to enjoy your independence separately from Krsna you turn "back" to Krsna, "back" to the Supersoul witness and take up bhakti to get "back" to your "original position."

This kind of thinking fits in line with VK's thinking, like its MY choice, MY realization after crores of lifetimes suffering.

Guru-nistha Das - October 29, 2013 12:42 am

Good points Madan.

Some thoughts on the "love means free will" idea:

Even material love is not voluntary. You can be sure that every teenager will fall in love, whether they want it or not. They may feel that they wanted it, but really it's their nature and biology that make it happen and then the feelings come. People can't "help themselves" falling in love with less than ideal characters, people can't stop thinking about their loved ones. It's quite clear that our freewill is very minute in these matters.

And what about kripa-siddhi? Is it somehow tainted by the fact that the jiva didn't choose to receive it? Will he be upset about his freewill being checked when he's crying his eyes out and falling over in prema?

Atmananda Dasa - October 29, 2013 1:35 am

Or, similarly the misunderstanding that you were once a gopi (for example) in Goloka and misused your independence, came here to the material world where your spiritual identity has been "dormant" or "covered" - jivera svarupa haya krsnera nitya dasa / nitya siddha krsna prema... As you become frustrated by trying to enjoy your independence separately from Krsna you turn "back" to Krsna, "back" to the Supersoul witness and take up bhakti to get "back" to your "original position."

 

This kind of thinking fits in line with VK's thinking, like its MY choice, MY realization after crores of lifetimes suffering.

Radhanath Swami very frequently preaches like this, love of Krishna is dormant in the heart and when there is contact with the holy name it comes out. Prabhupada has probably made statements like this somewhere. So it appears that many devotees in ISKCON have this idea that Prema is already there in the heart of every jiva, even a particular sti bhava is there, but it is covered with the dust of anathas. Therefore ceto darpanam marjanam and then the prema will come out.

It is also I think related with the process orientation to Bhakti. The heart is dirty, you clean it by chanting the holy name, then the dormant love of Krishna will come out. Therefore the importance of the guru is diminished, he is only a teacher who gives one the process of bhakti.

Swami - October 29, 2013 11:17 pm

Very nice discussion!

But I tried to "like" some of the comments only to receive a message that I had "reached my quota of positive votes for the day."

Gauravani, any idea what that is about?

Gauravani Dasa - October 29, 2013 11:37 pm

Guru Maharaja, I got the same message but it should be fixed now. I was able to like several of the posts above. Let me know if you continue to get the same message.

Madan Gopal Das - October 30, 2013 1:07 am

thanks for fixing that! I always thought you were a likable guy Gauravani!

Swami B. A. Ashram - October 31, 2013 2:09 am

One thing about these misunderstandings of the scope of the jiva's will is that Krishna and his svarupa shakti that are completely independent, not the jiva. As noted above, the word used in the Bhagavatam and MK is yadrccha. To assert any more will for the jiva than it actually has undermines any appreciation for the degree of Krishna's independence (and the svarupa shakti's). Moreover, it necessarily diminishes the degree of good fortune on the part of the jiva who is touched by bhakti. It asserts, however implicitly, that we have some qualification for bhakti. But what's the qualification for receiving mercy? It can only be need, it seems to me, which means we are otherwise utterly devoid of qualification.

Prema-bhakti - November 4, 2013 3:33 pm

How did I miss this thread? UGGG. I had a little run in with Vraja Kisor as well about a month ago (I have been participating in some SB study w some softcore ISKCON ppl and sometimes I even get to sub the class) but in the discussion with me Vraja took a softer stance and said something to the affect that he takes the position he does largely because it is more beneficial for him psychologically to do so. Hmmm. I need to study this thread. Btw Gurunistha, Vraja would be insulted if anyone insinuated his understanding (mis) is a product of ISKCON conditioning. ; )

Madan Gopal Das - November 4, 2013 5:08 pm

Btw Gurunistha, Vraja would be insulted if anyone insinuated his understanding (mis) is a product of ISKCON conditioning. ; )

I understand that he would, but the truth is that the over-valuing of our independence and specifically a "choice" of acceptance of bhakti is promoted not just by ISKCON, but is actually a kind of deep psychological culturally ingrained misunderstanding. The whole world over exaggerates freewill of the human experience. It could be said its the root of the "false" ego!

Prema-bhakti - November 4, 2013 6:47 pm

Nice point Madan-gopal. Thank you.

Shyamananda Das - November 5, 2013 4:53 am

The whole world over exaggerates freewill of the human experience. It could be said its the root of the "false" ego!

Is it really the whole world? It seems more like a European thing, although it has of course spread to other parts of the world.

Shyamananda Das - November 5, 2013 5:16 am

Svarupa sakti is in no way forced upon the jiva, but rather an opportunity for freedom is given.

GM said in a class the other day: "Once loved, you're going to become a lover".

Guru-nistha Das - November 5, 2013 8:46 pm

Is it really the whole world? It seems more like a European thing, although it has of course spread to other parts of the world.

I would say it's much stronger in the west but that the idea of being independent is actually the basis of false ego and thus must be present in the whole world. My two cents.

Guru-nistha Das - November 5, 2013 8:49 pm

Btw Gurunistha, Vraja would be insulted if anyone insinuated his understanding (mis) is a product of ISKCON conditioning. ; )

Heh, I know. It's ironic but that's just what it is.

Prema-bhakti - November 6, 2013 12:31 am

Someone should review Vraja's book for the Harmonist. Gopal, Guru Nistha, Vrndaranya?

Madan Gopal Das - July 10, 2014 11:33 am

This is an attempt to organize our classroom forum into threads on specific books. When this thread was started it was called "Sri Caitanya Sangha study group" which was mostly Madhurya Kadambini and related discussion. I want to continue study of that book and so have renamed the thread (sorry Nitai!).

I apologize for my very intermittent study of various books - I often get distracted by a certain topic or some discussion that comes up and get off track and off this TV forum which I prefer to other media. I'm going to try to participate more here on TV (and much less on FB) and actually progressively get all the way through a book as a group study.

Interesting to note - if you review the last few pages of this thread you will see that we were discussing exactly the points that have come up in FB discussion lately; free will of jiva, theodicy, inherent svarupa, related anadi karma, etc.

Last verse discussed here in Madhurya Kadambini was 2.4. On to 2.5...

Madan Gopal Das - July 10, 2014 11:38 am

to bring anyone up to speed where we were at:

2.4: Though klesagni and subhada "leaves" appear on the bhakti lata simultaneously, they may unfurl at different speeds. In other words, klesa's may be present and not much apparent auspiciousness, or vice versa. SB 11.2.42 cited in a similar way to explain that satisfaction, relief from hunger and nourishment don't immediately appear in one mouthful, but rather in the process of eating - every little bit. Another important point is that advanced souls can understand the progress being made by a devotee. I have heard GM several times say that devotees often cant understand how they are progressing, but the more advanced devotees can see.

Subal Das - July 10, 2014 6:37 pm

Please post a link to the copy y'all are reading so I can catch up.

Gauravani Dasa - July 10, 2014 6:42 pm

Here ya' go Subal: http://padmanabhdas.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/77183976-madhurya-kadambini-by-visvanatha-cakravartipada-and-ananta-das-babaji.pdf

Subal Das - July 11, 2014 12:06 pm

Thanks Gauravani! I'll be trying to catch up now.

Subal Das - July 12, 2014 11:31 pm

I've printed and bound the copy Gauravani shared. Is everyone reading the same copy? What's next? Who is actively participating in this discussion? What are the expectations for how often we should post?

Gauravani Dasa - July 13, 2014 4:52 pm

Subal, I'm following the discussion and I think everyone would love to hear your questions and/or insights. No limit to how often you post.

Subal Das - July 14, 2014 12:10 pm

What verse are we on?

Madan Gopal Das - July 14, 2014 12:16 pm

go up to my last post: 2.4

I'll be posting notes on 2.5 today.

Krsna-nama Dasa - July 14, 2014 2:02 pm

Thank you all for doing this study of Madhurya Kadambini. I know it has been ongoing for sometime now, but I am going to also try to read along and participate as best I can.

In service,

Krsna-nama dasa

Madan Gopal Das - July 14, 2014 2:17 pm

2.5 - The first step into the temple of devotion - Sraddha

- Faith is the adhikara for bhakti - sraddhavan jana hoy bhakti-adhikari (cc 2.22.64). This is such an important point because we hear almost daily of people putting so many other qualifications before this foundational element. It is actually very easy to rule out whether someone is talking about bhakti or not - are they talking about faith, or are they talking about some other qualification? So and so is a brahmana... not bhakti; so and so is a great yogi... not bhakti; so and so is NOT Indian... not bhakti; so and so is gay... not bhakti; so and so is a greatly "qualified" man with two submissive wives and ten children... not bhakti. The measure of whether someone is on the bhakti marga, or is even talking about bhakti is faith alone. No other qualification or disqualification.

- Faith is required in any endeavor and all paths - karma, jnana, yoga. Faith in bhakti is nirguna: "Faith in my service, however, is beyond the modes of nature. (SB 11.25.27)

- Two aspects of faith:

1) faith in sastras teachings leads to the understanding that without worshipping God one's life is wasted. As well, hearing about Hari's qualities gives one hope and one naturally desires to give up sense enjoyment.

2) following #1, one develops a desire to follow the process of sadhana.

- Divisions of faith described by Visvanath Chakravarti:

1) spontaneous/natural - svabhaviki. Jiva Goswami in BS calls this sastriya sraddha - scriptural faith

2) forced - balad utpadita. Jiva Goswami in BS calls this laukiki sraddha - popular faith

- sraddha appears and increases in the association of sadhus (SB 3.25.25)

*interesting further division of faith by Jiva Goswami between "intellectual devotees" who study the sastra under sravana guru to clear doubts and progress in faith, and ruci (not the stage of bhakti) "taste motivated" devotees whose faith develops by a taste for hearing the Lord's pastimes from the sadhus.

Subal Das - July 15, 2014 4:03 pm

Let's compare laukiki-sraddha (popular faith or forced faith) with sastriya-sraddha (scriptural faith or spontaneous/natural faith).

The faith that arises by the association and the company of saints is natural and is called scriptural faith. Pure worship which will result in prema is their very livelihood.

Forced faith or popular faith is not the result of such mercy and association of the saints, but is attained by hearsay, copying from others and is knowledge that comes down in a succession of popular belief. This is not a qualification for pure worship.

Subal Das - July 15, 2014 4:50 pm

If the result of sastriya-sradda is this: After hearing from sadhus, one gets the realization that the Lord is always mercifully residing everywhere in all His manifestations as the knower and possessor of all energies. These realisations make one determined to serve Him-that is the proper scriptural faith. This is the way the vicara pradhana devotees attain faith.

What is the result of laukiki-sraddha?

I'm reading that of the two types of fath, scriptural faith is superior. Although, popular faith may result in copying the devotional behavior of others and copying a good thing is a good thing. Scriptural faith will build a stronger sraddha-foundation and quality of one's sraddha (uttama, madhyama, and kanistha sraddha) is the basis of understanding one's qualification in bhakti.

Braja-sundari Dasi - December 27, 2014 2:17 am

hey, where are you guys? This way we will never manage to finish studying even one book

Madan Gopal Das - December 27, 2014 2:49 am

Sorry Braja, I thought Subal and I were the only ones left! We can keep going...

Madan Gopal Das - January 2, 2015 2:23 am

Happy New Year! 2015 should see a return of Tattva-viveka, so lets try to push on and methodically go through this and other gems of sastra. Picking up where we left off... Subal made a good point that laukika sraddha, though maybe based on imitation is still imitation of a good thing. Popular faith is popular, and we see people's faith is often temporarily bolstered by the association of others with a shared faith. Ultimately however, progress in devotion, in a substantial and sustained way happens in relation to faith in and absorption/understanding of sastra. This is how our acaryas have described the different categories of devotees according to their knowledge of sastra.

Braja-sundari Dasi - January 3, 2015 2:54 am

There is a thread on FB that discusses some acharyas attributing their writtings to more ancient authors. And one devotee says how it could be detrimental to faith when people discover that those acharyas were "cheating". Could sastrya sraddha be shaken by such a thing?

Madan Gopal Das - January 6, 2015 3:51 pm

My thoughts are that such doubts would arise in someone with laukiki sraddha. Doubting an acaryas attribution of his own writing (I assume we're talking about BVT here?) to a previous acarya suggests a lack of faith in the concept of revelation, that perhaps the acarya is cheating, or an influence of "popular faith" - how will "we" look(?) if our acarya isn't honest about his own authorship of certain works. It also doubts the intentions of the acarya and assumes a negative intent rather than the possibility that the acarya had good intention (preaching) or possibly good feelings/bhava (humility/revelation/connection with the attributed author) that made him attribute the work to another author. Simply put, I don't think this is an issue for one with sastriya sraddha...

Madan Gopal Das - February 4, 2015 7:18 pm

Swami B. A. Ashram - February 9, 2015 12:24 pm

I came to TV looking for something else, and I found that there is an attempt to keep this discussion going. I'd like to do what I can to help revive it, which may include going back to discuss previous sections anew. I noted to Swami a week or two ago, when he was speaking on bhava bhakti, that, as far as I know, there's not a lot of discussion about the actual nature of bhakti in the wider society of devotees. It seems that. over the past couple of years, anyway, he, Dulal, and I have been hammering on this, but I haven't seen much serious discussion elsewhere.

Braja-sundari Dasi - February 17, 2015 1:48 am

I`m going to listen to Dulal Chandra Prabhu`s classes on MK as well. It`s way better to study with other devotees. I know one lady who studied Madhurya Kadambini on her own and now is pretty convinced that she attained prema