Tattva-viveka
On brahmin threads, rituals, diksa and initiation
Madan Gopal Das - August 8, 2011 2:04 pm
As many of you know, Guru Maharaj has recently started giving diksa while not giving the thread. I thought I would start this topic for discussion of what that means, how we will observe it, clarifying questions and answers, etc. Guru Maharaj has requested that as the sangha is growing, we need a more standardized process for initiation and rituals in our sangha and in this regard I've been consulting with both Guru Maharaj and his godbrother Gaura-keshava to try to iron some of this out. GM has this very dynamic, progressive, forward-thinking approach while being deeply rooted in our gaudiya philosophical heritage. Gaura-keshava is similarly socially progressive and dynamic, while being very learned and expert in ritual, learning and practicing amongst Sri Vaisnava's (who most closely resemble the inclusive nature of our brand of vaisnavism) for many years. The discussions I've had with both of them have been very enlightening.
Madan Gopal Das - August 8, 2011 2:42 pm
Re. the thread:
First of all, for basic explanation everyone should understand that the upavita (thread) is traditionally given in India/varnasrama culture as a samskara called upanayanam. A person who undergoes the upanayanam samskara becomes a dvija, either a brahmana, ksatriya or vaisya depending upon caste. Sudra's are barred from upanayanam and receiving the thread. So, upanayanam is a social samskara, relevent in a social system, which signifies ones place in that social system. It does not make one a Vaisnava.
Diksa on the other hand makes one a Vaisnava and is a spiritual ritual, not a social or cultural one. Anyone may receive vaisnava diksa. Vaisnava diksa does not make one a brahmana, it only makes one a vaisnava. There may be a some mixing of these two (the upanayanam and diksa) in India, or amongst people born in India: A brahmin may accept vaisnava diksa, a vaisnava may have been born a brahmana, a brahmin may not be a vaisnava, a vaisnava may not be a brahmin, and on an on with different mixes of social standing related to spiritual practice.
In our lineage these two (upanayanam and diksa) were merged into one by BSST though they are distinct and unrelated functions. As we know, BSST sought to establish that the Vaisnava was at the very least a brahmana. While this preaching innovation was understandable and dynamic and a wonderful strategy in his time, it's relevance to our circumstance is questionable.
Looking back a generation, if you take a look at your parampara you will notice that Gaura-kisora das babaji and BSST's father Thakur Bhaktivinoda both did not wear the thread. They both received diksa though... Looking ahead one generation, BSST disciple Prabhupada gave the thread in continuing with what his gurudeva did, but he also made an innovation with regard to giving the brahma-gayatri mantra to women (BSST and other disciples of his did not). That brings us to the present.
Guru Maharaj has spoken about some of the difficulty justifying the need for the thread:
1) How to justify women not receiving it, while in principle all of our spiritual opportunities (like brahma-gayatri, puja, etc) are equally accessible.
2) We don't function in a varnasrama culture where we are preaching that westerners can be brahmins via the process of diksa, etc. That point is no longer necessary to be made.
3) Diksa is not about the thread, it is about receiving the mantras and as I will explain later, other items as part of a VAISNAVA/spiritual ritual, not a social status placement.
Any questions about this before I continue? I'll wait a day to hear...
Madan Gopal Das - August 8, 2011 2:55 pm
Oh, related to this we should think about the place of brahma-gayatri, which is the mantra that is traditionally given at upanayanam samskara and which is chanted for sandhya-vandanam (at the junction of the sandhyas three times/day).
As stated previously, BSST did not give this mantra to his women disciples. In that varnasrama/vedic culture women have a low status and like sudras are barred from chanting vedic mantras which the brahma gayatri is. Technically, vedic mantras that begin with OM are not to be chanted by anyone who is not dvija (undergone upanayanam). Of BSST's disciples, as far as we know only Prabhupada gave brahma-gayatri to women. I am told that Narayan Maharaj followed in the path of his guru by also not giving it when giving diksa, saying that the mantra will create "purusa-bhava" in women.
GM has decided that he will continue to give this mantra at diksa due to the fact that Prabhupada gave it and we also have the wonderful tika's of SSM and Jiva Goswami which give a Gaudiya interpretation.
I continue my request for any questions over the next day or so and I'll wait to give more info...
Atmananda Dasa - August 8, 2011 5:03 pm
Wow!
This is a refreshing change that I think clears away a widespread source of internal conflict.
On the one hand the converts to GVism were taught that the tradition was transcendental to or simply unconcerned with varnashrama and on the other when we received diksa we were now "brahmins" and expected to follow all brahminical rules. (I'm speaking from the greater part of my personal experience and not about Swami here) Of course our Swami has given us a clear understanding relating the wearing of the tread to our aspiration to enter the lila. However, I am still breathing a big sigh of relief hearing this news that the thread is no longer to be an issue.
Somehow I just always had a hard time dealing with the thread. I have been going back and forth between wearing it and not wearing it for a few years now. I have hope that this will help me to eliminate this awkward internal conflict that has been bothering me for a long time.
Thanks for bringing up this discussion Madanji and as always dear Swami and Vaisnavas please correct any misunderstanding that you may see here.
Madan Gopal Das - August 8, 2011 7:59 pm
on the other when we received diksa we were now "brahmins" and expected to follow all brahminical rules.
Yes, in Iskcon many of us were taught with more emphasis on the brahmana/varna/social side of the two systems (diksa and upanayanam) combined. "Brahminical culture" (cleanliness, truthfulness, patan, paatan, yajan, yaajan, dana, pratigraha) was emphasized to us more than the fact that BSST's giving of upanayanam to vaisnavas was actually a CRITIQUE of the way the varnasrama system was being lived out in that culture. Caste goswami's were criticizing that people like Narottama Thakur and Shyamananda were not born in elevated families and yet they were giving diksa. To combat that argument and to emphasize the guna/karma over birth qualification, BSST gave upanayanam to vaisnavas. It was a BOLD statement, and one that is generally not needed today.
A couple thoughts in support: Many spiritual groups in India outright reject caste considerations. Similarly BSST's innovation was a critique by putting on the thread and saying to the brahmin class - hey, we're as good as you. The vedas, the sastra, duties of an acarya are not your exclusive property. What to speak of our group, with little to no preaching or interaction in that culture or social system. With GM's progressive innovations like offering equal opportunity in spiritual practice to anyone regardless of birth, it makes sense to separate these two systems, diksa and upanayanam.
Gaura-kesava told me that he wears a thread because he has a house in the brahmana neighborhood of Sri Rangam (super important city of Sri Vaisnavas). He performs all (if not more and better) the same rituals that they do and he is trying to make the point that "if it looks like a brahmana and acts like a brahmana, its a brahmana" - despite being a western born vaisnava. He says he continues to wear it when living in Hawaii because he thinks things should be consistent, why wear it sometimes and sometimes not.
He also said that Vayasaki (the kirtaniya) who received the thread from Prabhupada does not wear one because he does not see the point. His emphasis is on kirtana and bhakti, and he couldn't figure out what the point was of wearing the thread related to a social system that we don't really promote.
Of course our Swami has given us a clear understanding relating the wearing of the tread to our aspiration to enter the lila.
That has always been the only compelling argument I had heard, and it is notable that GM tried to apply a spiritual context as the material considerations all fall apart. Even still, I felt this idea of entering the Gaura-lila as a brahmin boy while a wonderful way to internalize the idea of the thread isn't necessarily solid for everyone. For me, one reason is because this is a meditation/internal perspective. While Mahaprabhu's lila functioned within the varnasrama social system, there are a lot of other aspects of that culture that we do not observe in our culture, so even if the thread is present in a lila, that lila is a consistently different picture from our lila/culture/external life. If we take the thread with us, it needs to be on the inside. Generally we are thinking that external things from this life we won't take with us to that life, in the same form....
Also, it could be countered that if the sadhaka desires to take birth in vraja, Krsna hasn't gone to Mathura where he receives his upanayanam. For example, in worship of Krsna-Balaram deities GM has stated his preference for the deities to not have threads. So, the opposite could be said of the above meditation argument, going against the thread - we want to enter the lila of Krsna-Balaram, in the company of boys who haven't had upanayanam. 
These last parts are just my thoughts (I think about this a lot), I haven't confirmed them with Guru Maharaj, so he may chastise me and straighten me out about this. :Big Grin:
Gopala Dasa - August 8, 2011 9:37 pm
Yes, in Iskcon many of us were taught with more emphasis on the brahmana/varna/social side of the two systems (diksa and upanayanam) combined. "Brahminical culture" (cleanliness, truthfulness, patan, paatan, yajan, yaajan, dana, pratigraha) was emphasized to us more than the fact that BSST's giving of upanayanam to vaisnavas was actually a CRITIQUE of the way the varnasrama system was being lived out in that culture. Caste goswami's were criticizing that people like Narottama Thakur and Shyamananda were not born in elevated families and yet they were giving diksa. To combat that argument and to emphasize the guna/karma over birth qualification, BSST gave upanayanam to vaisnavas. It was a BOLD statement, and one that is generally not needed today.
Having not received mantra diksa I am even more of an ugly duckling here than usual, but it is interesting to me the degree to which Western devotees have used the thread and its loaded socio-religious connotations to signify a sort of validation or qualification to cultural Hindus. This may be an extension of BSST's "critique" that was never anticipated, and one that may not make an effective point in every context. Granted, if you show up at Sri Rangam with proper brahminical dress (but white skin) you will be allowed to enter. I also believe that Prabhupada would showcase Western devotees in India, too, and the thread may have made a powerful statement in such instances.
Even so, my view is that Gaudiya Vaisnavism's dialogue needs to be not so much with brahminincal Hindus (and their arguably dying symbolism), but with other types of cultured people. Traditions are beautiful things, but they often have esoteric, context-specific justifications. I really appreciated Guru-maharaja's discussion and evaluation of the brahmin thread on the Swami Call, and it is good that you are capturing and codifying the broader implications here.
Babhru Das - August 8, 2011 10:35 pm
Of course our Swami has given us a clear understanding relating the wearing of the tread to our aspiration to enter the lila.
I'm not sure whether I've heard this. Could someone remind us, please?
Babhru Das - August 8, 2011 11:41 pm
Sorry. I clearly missed Madan's post above, which reminded me that I had indeed heard this from Swami on a couple of occasions.
Madan Gopal Das - August 9, 2011 1:24 am
Here is a sanga, with one question I asked re. thread and brahma gayatri. This is where I remember GM first putting forth the idea of meditation on gaura-lila, which no doubt is a wonderful way to think about the social system which goes on in the lila. http://www.swami.org/pages/sanga/2004/2004_20.php
Nitaisundara Das - August 9, 2011 3:59 am
I am a little confused about the thread in Krsna lila. I believe I have heard it all discussed before, but I find myself confused. In the nitya lila, Krsna is kishore, a teenager. Whether one considers him a vaisya or a ksatriya living the life of a vaisya, wouldn't he have received upanayanam by then? In the deity worship manual we follow here one does indeed offer the upavita to Giriraja (or have I lost my mind? I have not been doing that worship for a long time). But GM did make it clear multiple times that the KB deities he had made should not have had a thread painted on. Clarification anyone?
Madan Gopal Das - August 9, 2011 9:39 am
I am a little confused about the thread in Krsna lila.
Krsna goes to Mathura and kills Kamsa. Then very painfully he says goodbye to Nanda and Yasoda, his real mother and father who are there in Mathura for a bit while Krsna-Balaram went. They leave and return to Vraja and Krsna and Balaram under the care of Vasudeva receive the sacred thread from Garga Muni, the family priest. Then they are shipped off to gurukula under the tutelage of Sandipani Muni.
Here is what GM has said before:
Regarding the threads, in consideration of rasa tattva Krsna does not wear a thread in Vraja as a kishore or earlier. It is Mathura that he wears it, Mathura and Dvaraka. However, if the deity comes with such a thread, one may have to think creatively, but ideally it would be best if it were not there. It is the artist's mistake and he should be corrected.
As we were not able to remove the threads from our deities, GM in the spirit above said that we could worship them as having returned from Mathura. Another way he has said one could be creative:
Krsna is a cowherd!! (mg - not a ksatriya) Rama's mother too. So he as well!! All three higher castes received the thread, but KB got it in Mathura of course. I noted that and just considered the thread rope for tying cows! Use you imagination and a little siddhanta.
Here is also a nice quote from Sripada Gaura-Govinda Maharaj in a 1996 class after a deity darsana:
That is Vraja lila. In Vraja bhumi Krishna is a cowherd boy. Kishora lila, always eleven years, twelve years old. The lilas with the gopis, the damsels of Vrindavan, that is Vraja bhumi. When Krishna goes to Mathura and Dwarka that is not Kishore Krishna. Vrindavan lila is Madhurya mayi lila and Mathura and Dwarka lila that is aisvarya mayi lila, madhurya is covered up. In aisvarya mayi lila Krishna is a young man there, He is a married person. A young man.
Vasudeva sent Him to get education. He went to Sandipani Muni’s ashram. Krishna and Balarama became brahmacaris, studied there, followed guru. Then upanayana is there. Upanayana means sacred thread giving ceremony. Krishna got upanayana, and also Balarama. After that… not in Vrajabhumi, Krishna is a cowherd boy. So that Krishna with Radha means in Vrajabhumi. Krishna is not with Radha in Dwarka or Mathura. Krishna with Radha means, we worship that Kishore Krishna, Radha Krishna. That Krishna in Vrajabhumi, Kishore Krishna, all beautiful Krishna Shyamasundara. So there should not be sacred thread [on the deity of Krishna with Radharani], He has not taken upanayana. It is after that.
He is Yashodanandana, Nandanandana. Not Vasudevanandana. That’s a different thing. Tattva vichar is there. So don’t put sacred thread on Kishore Krishna because He has not gotten upanayana. I find, there see there, [the Lord on the altar], I felt, ‘what is this, they put sacred thread on Krishna ? Radha Govardhanananda, this is Vrajabhumi, Kishore Krishna, cowherd boy. You are pujari, but I couldn’t say. But in my mind I thought of this thing. When this last question was asked then it came.
Audarya-lila Dasa - August 10, 2011 5:18 am
I have to wonder a bit about Brahma Gayatri and it's place in our lineage as well given this discussion. Afterall, it was when Srila Bhaktisiddhanta made the innovation with the thread giving that he added the Brahma Gayatri to the standard mantras given at diksha within our sampradaya. If the thread no longer has relevance, why does the mantra associated with it and the upanayanam ceremony? I know that Srimad Bhagavatam is a commentary on Brahma Gayatri and I have read Sridhara Maharaja wonderful commentary on the mantra. But it is also quite clear that Krsna mantra and Kama Gayatri are the central mantras of the sampradaya.
Anyway, my question really is 'if the thread giving was a socio/religious statement relevant to a time and place and is no longer relevant why would the mantra associated with it not fall into the same category?' Afterall, it is the mantra given at upanayanam along with the thread and clearly the statement that was made was made with both the thread and the mantra. So why do away with only one?
Madan Gopal Das - August 10, 2011 1:00 pm
Afterall, it is the mantra given at upanayanam along with the thread and clearly the statement that was made was made with both the thread and the mantra. So why do away with only one?
Thank Krsna more people are thinking about this and reading this thread and offering thoughts and questions. I was getting a little worried that I'm going out on a limb here. Thanks Audarya-lila!
If you read the sanga I referenced you will note that while the brahma-gayatri is given during upanayanam, it is generally thought of by those in various sects of Hinduism or Hindu culture as being a mantra to the sun, chanted at the sandhya's, etc. While this may be true to some extent and not necessarily a bad way to think about it, the gaudiya's have given a much deeper depiction of the mantra. From the sanga:
One might also question the need for Brahma Gayatri when our principal mantras, Gopala Mantra and Kama Gayatri, are given at initiation (diksa), but one should not question the spirituality of Brahma Gayatri. Brahma Gayatri has a broader appeal than the Gopala Mantra and Kama Gayatri, but no scripturally adept Gaudiya Vaisnava considers Brahma Gayatri a mere sun mantra. Brahma Gayatri is only about the sun in as much as the sun is used as a conceptual symbol representing Brahman (God). The sun is equated with Brahman because everything in this world that we require for sustenance is dependent on the sun. No doubt some Hindus might conceive of Brahma Gayatri as a sun mantra, but that is because they do not understand the full import of the mantra.
According to Sri Jiva Goswami, Brahma Gayatri petitions no one other than Bhagavan replete with his sakti. He is very clear on this in his Tattva-sandarbha. Scripture also acknowledges that Gayatri Mantra emanates from the flute of Sri Krsna, and the Garuda Purana clearly states that Srimad-Bhagavatam is a commentary on the Gayatri Mantra. As Srimad Bhagavatam is a meditation on the supreme truth—satyam param dhimahi—so too is Gayatri. The Bhagavatam's opening statement indicates that the pastimes of Radha-Krsna (param) should be eternally (satyam) meditated upon (dhimahi).
All Gayatri mantras including Kama Gayatri come from the prototype of Brahma Gayatri, and it is said that Gayatri devi incarnated as Kama Gayatri in order to pursue gopi bhava. Kama Gayatri merely focuses more directly on the highest reach of Brahma Gayatri. Gopi bhava must be within Brahma Gayatri, as it is not possible for something to contain more than its source. Gayatri Mantra's identification with Srimad-Bhagavatam and the transcendental sound emanating from the flute of Sri Krsna, as well as the fact that Kama Gayatri comes from Brahma Gayatri, should dispel all doubts about the spirituality of Brahma Gayatri.
With this in mind, and with the commentaries of Jiva Goswami and Srila Sridhar Maharaj on this mantra, Guru Maharaj decided that he will continue to give the mantra, which is not related to the thread and which transcends the social parameters it was traditionally given in.
Madan Gopal Das - August 10, 2011 1:05 pm
For further reference, here is SSM's commentary: gayatri-bhasya
Swami - August 10, 2011 1:07 pm
I have to wonder a bit about Brahma Gayatri and it's place in our lineage as well given this discussion. Afterall, it was when Srila Bhaktisiddhanta made the innovation with the thread giving that he added the Brahma Gayatri to the standard mantras given at diksha within our sampradaya. If the thread no longer has relevance, why does the mantra associated with it and the upanayanam ceremony? I know that Srimad Bhagavatam is a commentary on Brahma Gayatri and I have read Sridhara Maharaja wonderful commentary on the mantra. But it is also quite clear that Krsna mantra and Kama Gayatri are the central mantras of the sampradaya.
Anyway, my question really is 'if the thread giving was a socio/religious statement relevant to a time and place and is no longer relevant why would the mantra associated with it not fall into the same category?' Afterall, it is the mantra given at upanayanam along with the thread and clearly the statement that was made was made with both the thread and the mantra. So why do away with only one?
But gayatri is so much more than that, as you comment. Jiva Goswami has commented extensively on it in tattva and Pramatma-sandarbhas. Pujyapada SM as well. So we are accustomed to that Gaudiya significance. We have been given that and want to share it.
Madan Gopal Das - August 10, 2011 1:38 pm
as a p.s. to my first comment replying to Audarya-lila:
We also need to consider that the social context brahma-gayatri was given in did not allow women to chant it. Even gaudiya's besides Prabhupad did not give it to women. So, if we are emphasizing mantra over thread, we are equaling out what was done by Prabhupada in an essential way - keeping the mantra which was given to all, disregarding the thread which was only for men.
The brahma-gayatri is possibly the most famous mantra of Hinduism, and nowadays people chant it whether they're initiated into it or not; i.e. Ravi Shankar has a "Mantras" music release which broadcasts gayatri to anyone who hears it. So, our sampradaya has given a very deep understanding of this mantra - radha-dasyam, it is nice to keep it, and cultivate beyond its social context, which is being done to one degree or another by Hindu's anyway.
Gaurasundara Das - August 10, 2011 3:30 pm
I am honored that Guru Maharaj gave me the thread, but I relate more to his reasoning for taking it off than to those of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta for putting it on. Different time different place and Guru Maharaj is an expert judge of this.
Madan Gopal Das - August 10, 2011 3:46 pm
I am honored that Guru Maharaj gave me the thread, but I relate more to his reasoning for taking it off than to those of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta for putting it on. Different time different place and Guru Maharaj is an expert judge of this.
Big like Gaurasundara!
Another way I have thought about the thread is that it is nice to have something the guru has given, even if "material", to hold dear to oneself as a memento, a symbol of connection to him. But then when changed it is no longer the same thread. We also have our japa-mala which GM gives us and has used himself. Or, if we are lucky sometimes we have opportunity to collect other memento's he leaves behind.
Gopala Dasa - August 10, 2011 4:59 pm
I am honored that Guru Maharaj gave me the thread, but I relate more to his reasoning for taking it off than to those of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta for putting it on. Different time different place and Guru Maharaj is an expert judge of this.
Yes, I think either way there is a sense of participation in parampara, even apart from receipt of mantras.
Some years back Narasingha Maharaja identified a number of challenges to the Saraswati Prabhupada parampara as put forward by the "Vrindavan anti-party" (Jiva Institute, I believe). Among other things, the anti-party claims that Brahma-Gayatri is not found in GV, and that it is associated with varnasrama only. In response to this, basically Maharaja says that the anti-party fails to recognize that the pure devotee is necessary to extract the essence of sastra -- and in the case of Brahma-Gayatri, the radha-dasyam purport. The argument from the perspective of essence is very powerful. In fact, the entire Gaudiya theology could be said to stem from an "essentialist" reading of SB.
Audarya-lila Dasa - August 10, 2011 5:59 pm
I wasn't questioning the spirituality of Brahma Gayatri - I was just voicing the obvious question, I believe. There are obviously many mantras with great spiritual import but we aren't given them as diksha mantras. My only point is/was that the thread was added along with the mantra associated with it for socio/religous reasons and was a useful statement at a particular time and in a particular context which appears to all but be outdated (although as commented with regard to Sri Rangam, it is still an 'issue' in some places in India). As pointed out, Jiva Goswami took time and effort to inform us of the spiritual depth of Brahma Gayatri, yet at his time and all the way up until Srila Bhaktisiddhanta the mantra was not given as a diksha mantra in our sampradaya. It was only in the context of the preaching of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta and the issue of disrespect of vaishnavas by some caste brahmins that the thread and mantra were introduced.
At any rate, I am perfectly satisfied and Guru Maharaja gave me the mantra so I chant it. As far as the thread goes - when I first heard about this was when Tarun Krsna was intiated. I spoke to him and helped him understand what Guru Mahraja was doing and at the time I was fully prepared to take the thread given to me off. I am still fully prepared to do so if that is Guru Maharaja's wish. I have never been one for formalities and actually have a hard time with a lot of rituals (but that's another issue).
Madan Gopal Das - August 10, 2011 8:36 pm
I wasn't questioning the spirituality of Brahma Gayatri - I was just voicing the obvious question, I believe.
I hope I didn't come across implying that you're question was anything other than very interesting to think about and research. I tend to write as if I'm thinking out loud. 
I'm really glad people are giving their thoughts. I'm fascinated by culture, symbols and also progress, change and substance, so this is all something I've thought about for a long time and I continue to enjoy contemplating the development of social culture side by side a spiritual culture.
As far as the thread goes - when I first heard about this was when Tarun Krsna was intiated. I spoke to him and helped him understand what Guru Mahraja was doing and at the time I was fully prepared to take the thread given to me off. I am still fully prepared to do so if that is Guru Maharaja's wish. I have never been one for formalities and actually have a hard time with a lot of rituals (but that's another issue).
I think a lot of us are like this. We want our culture, our symbols, our rituals to make sense. I think a lot of us are developed to a point that we want a spiritual culture and a social culture that work well together, as opposed to being alienated from each other or putting us in internal conflict. Some people in an effort to feel secure in their spirituality, merge spiritual and social culture into one inseparable lifestyle. This can make for some scary people rigidly devoted to backward thinking claimed as proof of their spirituality. I'm sure we all know some of these people.
I think people that have come to GM's shelter tend towards wanting a culture we can represent in the totality of our lives without feeling divided in two. For me, he can make sense out of spiritual culture and also substantiate its purpose while also demonstrating how to function in a modern western culture with something to contribute from our spiritual path which doesn't appear outdated. This thread and clarifying/establishing a standard for our ritual practices is an attempt to do that.
Re. removing the thread, I actually took mine off yesterday on the anniversary of my receiving it originally in Iskcon. I'm a huge proponent of spiritual equality, and I felt like why should I have one if my wife (who's more "brahminical" than I :Big Grin:) doesn't? I also actually want to feel some sort of solidarity with my godbrothers/sisters who don't receive the thread now, that they don't feel like they're missing out on something. Maybe we should have a thread taking off ceremony during diksa initiation at Janmastami? :Big Grin: naham vipro...
Braja-sundari Dasi - August 10, 2011 11:19 pm
Re. removing the thread, I actually took mine off yesterday on the anniversary of my receiving it originally in Iskcon. I'm a huge proponent of spiritual equality, and I felt like why should I have one if my wife (who's more "brahminical" than I
) doesn't? I also actually want to feel some sort of solidarity with my godbrothers/sisters who don't receive the thread now, that they don't feel like they're missing out on something. Maybe we should have a thread taking off ceremony during diksa initiation at Janmastami?
I never felt lacking anything and although I thought thread looked kinda cool on boys, internally i was glad to not have one (although for very material reasons. 
).
I`m thinking of Guru Maharaja`s decision as a big coming back to tradition, with more emphasis on essence then externals. During my years in Isckon I`ve met so many devotees for whom diksa meant really attaining higher social status of brahmana... So sad and so true... some even used sacred thread to curse other people...
So example of our sanga may help to bring Western devotees` attention back to real meaning of receiving mantras.
Atmananda Dasa - August 11, 2011 1:12 am
I always had a hard time following all the rules of wearing the thread. i.e. I kept forgetting to put it up on my ear when needed and therefore I think I went through probably 50 threads in one year because I had to keep changing it. Then there was the problem of when I went I was in college. It was a very tight group in nursing school. And there were only a few men in the program. So I could hardly be anonymous in the bathroom with a thread wrapped around my ear. No one ever said anything to me, but I did get quite a few strange looks. I got around this by just wearing the thread up around my neck. But then it still wasn't getting on my ear when necessary which was not exactly following the rule. In any case, I did get really frustrated with it and eventually started taking it off.
Anyway, I think it will be a lot easier on some devotees not to have to concern themselves with all the rituals of the thread which are anyway maybe difficult for some to keep up with.
And of course, if Srila Bhaktisiddhanta gave the thread in part as preaching to the cast brahmans and others, it makes perfect sense to me that it can be left aside because it will simply be another peculiarity in our present society.
Atmananda Dasa - August 11, 2011 1:13 am
And Madanji thanks for sharing all the philosophical reasoning behind Diksa without the thread. It is important to know for ourselves and of course important to know as we are called on to explain it to our fellow Gaudiyas.
Gauravani Dasa - August 11, 2011 1:21 am
I'd like to echo Atmananda's appreciation for Madan's explanations. Thanks bhai!
And Madanji thanks for sharing all the philosophical reasoning behind Diksa without the thread. It is important to know for ourselves and of course important to know as we are called on to explain it to our fellow Gaudiyas.
Madan Gopal Das - August 11, 2011 3:12 am
Okay, any more commentary on brahmin thread, brahma-gayatri etc. is welcome, but I'm going to move on to something new, diksa, or initiation. Diksa is said to be complete through the process of pancha-samskara. The illustrious Thakur Bhaktivinoda has explained the 5 elements of initiation very nicely here: Mhttp://www.sanskrit.org/www/Samskaras/samskaras.html#_ftn3y link
They are:
1)tapa - marking the body with symbols of the Lord (branding in Sri Vaisnavism). Sri Caitanya has offered writing the name of the Lord on the body with sandal paste as an alternative.
2)paundra - tilak
3)nama - hari-nama as well as being given a spiritual name as a dasa/dasi of Krishna
4)mantra - diksa mantras like the gopala-mantra
5)yaga - deity worship
Thakur explains that pancha-samskara enables one to be properly situated in bhajana-kriya, thus in standardizing our rituals, this pancha-samskara will be incorporated into future initiations. Current initiates already have these items in essence, but this explanation by Bhaktivinoda gives a nice format to our process.
Madan Gopal Das - August 11, 2011 3:45 am
Where's our brahmana advisor Bhrigupada??? He must have some commentary on all this...
Gopala Dasa - August 11, 2011 2:34 pm
BVT does not seem to mention here anything about fire yajna or other ritual mechanics in relation to the conferring of pancha-samskara. I suspect that some missions treat yajna as almost indispensable (insofar as it is always performed) for harinama and mantra diksa. Arguably the absence of yajna shifts the attention to something BVT does mention specifically – utterance of the mantra into the student’s ear. In the context of SCS, definitely this is a breathless moment every time we see it. I do not see how yajna could somehow “add” to this. At the same time, is there a standard explanation for largely dispensing with yajna?
Braja-sundari Dasi - August 11, 2011 3:05 pm
BVT does not seem to mention here anything about fire yajna or other ritual mechanics in relation to the conferring of pancha-samskara. I suspect that some missions treat yajna as almost indispensable (insofar as it is always performed) for harinama and mantra diksa. Arguably the absence of yajna shifts the attention to something BVT does mention specifically utterance of the mantra into the student's ear. In the context of SCS, definitely this is a breathless moment every time we see it. I do not see how yajna could somehow "add" to this. At the same time, is there a standard explanation for largely dispensing with yajna?
Yajna is not necessary. It is done for auspiciousness as far as I remember. Recited mantras invoke mercy of Krisha and his associates through guruparampara. I personally like it.
Madan Gopal Das - August 11, 2011 3:06 pm
The understanding I'm getting is that pancha-samskara are the essential elements of initiation. They are all conferred by the guru, so you have caught the essence, which is guru giving the mantra to the disciple. While the process of initiation is perfect and complete with this essence, it may also be ceremonialized (might have made up that word) according to the desire of the guru. For ritual, gaudiya's have traditionally followed Hari-bhakti-vilasa which is written by Gopal-bhatta Goswami and commented upon by Sanatana Goswami - OR - Gaudiya-matha and Iskcon have done a lot of rituals coming from Sat-kriya-sar-dipika which is attributed to Gopal Bhatta Goswami. Gaura-Keshava says that he has some doubts about the authenticity of that book as well as some of the mantras, and we are giving up the upanayanam ceremony which comes from there. As the standard for our sampradaya is Hari-bhakti-vilasa, ordered by Mahaprabhu to be written, we have decided to follow its recommendations on initiation ritual. It describes a range of complexity for an initiation rite, from the most simplistic of the guru just giving the mantra, to elaborate ceremonies involving for example the guru bathing the disciple. I'm working with Gaura-keshava on specifying the particulars of a HBV derived ceremony we will do. GM has said he likes to have a fire.
So, when you get diksa Gopala, bring a change of clothes. And you might want to shave up, because abhiseka is hard to get out of your hair... 
(just kidding, no bathing going to be happening)
Gopala Dasa - August 11, 2011 3:34 pm
The understanding I'm getting is that pancha-samskara are the essential elements of initiation. They are all conferred by the guru, so you have caught the essence, which is guru giving the mantra to the disciple. While the process of initiation is perfect and complete with this essence, it may also be ceremonialized (might have made up that word) according to the desire of the guru. For ritual, gaudiya's have traditionally followed Hari-bhakti-vilasa which is written by Gopal-bhatta Goswami and commented upon by Sanatana Goswami - OR - Gaudiya-matha and Iskcon have done a lot of rituals coming from Sat-kriya-sar-dipika which is attributed to Gopal Bhatta Goswami. Gaura-Keshava says that he has some doubts about the authenticity of that book as well as some of the mantras, and we are giving up the upanayanam ceremony which comes from there. As the standard for our sampradaya is Hari-bhakti-vilasa, ordered by Mahaprabhu to be written, we have decided to follow its recommendations on initiation ritual. It describes a range of complexity for an initiation rite, from the most simplistic of the guru just giving the mantra, to elaborate ceremonies involving for example the guru bathing the disciple. I'm working with Gaura-keshava on specifying the particulars of a HBV derived ceremony we will do. GM has said he likes to have a fire.
So, when you get diksa Gopala, bring a change of clothes. And you might want to shave up, because abhiseka is hard to get out of your hair...
Thanks, Madan-ji. That is great. I can't remember precisely, but I recall Guru-maharaja saying that in the absence of a fire the initiate or sanga could think, "Hey, nothing happened!" Definitely a humorous comment, but one that also hints at why some rituals (or elements of them) are worth preserving.
Syamasundara - August 11, 2011 3:35 pm
I used to be attached to the idea of wearing the thread, but now I could give it up without a second thought (darn it, now that I had learned how to make my own...). After all, every initiation happens with witnesses, and it's not a thread (that can be made easily or bought in bundles at loy bazar for pennies) to prove one's qualification.
As Yudhisthira maharaja said, a brahmana is someone who behaves like one.
What I can't wrap my mind around is the purusha bhava explanation. Wouldn't that be one more reason for men not to chant it? We need to develop all the prakriti bhava we can.
My last thought about it was to ask this question on FB and see the reactions, but I don't have a lot of Iskcon friends. Surely they'll come with tons of quotations by SP about how important it is to establish the varnashrama dharma, and that we are to be the brahmana engine that sets it all in motion (makes you wonder why SP stressed that so much sometimes, but he really landed in a land of chaos, and in those times especially. Plus, he came from a certain culture, with a certain mentality). We might be presented with some challenges, but we might also provide some food for thought to many.
Syamasundara - August 11, 2011 3:36 pm
On a side note. I am pretty sure Krsna and Balarama received threads on Gopastami, no?
Madan Gopal Das - August 11, 2011 3:48 pm
@ Shyamu - I'm not particularly interested in publicly seeking any response about how GM has changed this for his mission, or challenging how others do it. Each acarya has the perogative to do as they wish and so if it comes up for whatever reason, or in any of our interactions with people they ask questions, the answers and how we think about it are here.
I suppose if at some point GM wants to make a preaching point about it we could write some articles for harmonist, but for now it feels like this is a more internal sangha discussion.
Re. Krsna-Balaram's thread ceremony, see previous comments. They received it in Mathura from Garga-muni, the kula-guru, and then go to gurukula at Sandipani Muni's asrama.
Syamasundara - August 11, 2011 8:22 pm
Ummm... that's not what I meant at all.
Discuss GM's policy? I meant as an open question, like: "How relevant is it to wear the thread?" or some kind of generic question like that.
I obviously meant the vaisya thread. Why would Krishna and Balarama receive a kshatriya thread at the time of herding calves?
Syamasundara - August 11, 2011 8:35 pm
"Krishna, along with Rama and many other young lads, was then given a rope, stick, flute, and horn to carry."
OK, my bad, I thought there was a thread in there, too.
Madan Gopal Das - August 11, 2011 9:00 pm
Ummm... that's not what I meant at all.
Sorry I misunderstood. A generic question about the relevance of the thread sounds good to me. Go for it!
I obviously meant the vaisya thread. Why would Krishna and Balarama receive a kshatriya thread at the time of herding calves?
Though their identities as being vaisyas or ksatriyas could be argued from one point of view, as far as I know their upanayanam is only once, after leaving Vraja. Though brahmanas, ksatriyas and vaisya's receive the thread at upanayanam samskara, Krsna's initiation into cowherding on Gopastami is not an upanayanam ceremony. GM beautifully describes that ceremony like this, with no mention of the thread as one of the items given:
For three days announcements were made to the beat of kettledrums everywhere throughout the settlement. All of the arrangements belittled that which had been arranged previously in connection with Krishna’s calf-herding initiation. This event should be envisioned as follows: accompanied by musical instruments and singing, Krishna approached the cows and priests before him. He then greeted them by washing their feet, offering them praise, and feeding them sweet fodder from his hand. After the cows were quite satisfied, he bowed before them in respect. Then he satisfied the priests with gifts and came before his father with folded hands along with Balarama. Nanda baba then placed a jeweled cowherd’s staff in his son’s hand and Yasodamayi, the queen of Vraja, anointed Krishna’s forehead with tilak, saying, “Rama you stay in front of Krishna; Subala you stay behind him; Sridam and Sudama stay by his side, and the rest of you gather around him, for he is you dear friend.” She did and said this while drenching her son and his friends with her tears of love.
With the completion of the ceremony, Rama and Krishna called to the cows, “hyah, hyah, jihi,” expecting the cows to move. Not prepared to move in front of him for fear of loosing sight of his beautiful form, they remained motionless until he went to the front of the herd and lead them into the forest. Even the gopis admit that to see this is the perfection of the eyes, aksanvatam phalam idam na param vidamah sakhyah pasun anuvivesyator vayasyaih.
We can only imagine this scene, yet doing so with a pure mind we can enter there as well. Those interested in Krishna’s eternal friendship will hanker to herd cows with him through the initiation ceremony of Gopastami.
Mayapurcandra Das - August 12, 2011 9:42 am
Thank you Madanji for this thread, I wouldn't expect that discussion on giving it (upanayanam) up can be so juicy :-)
Especially that story where Guru Maharaja describes Krsna's initiation into cowherding on Gopastami.
Jayho!
Bhrigu - August 12, 2011 1:16 pm
Here I am, Madanji! I have been out in the country all summer (now only briefly back in the city), and not logged in on TV for a long time. But this is, yes, a very interesting topic. I spoke a little with Guru Maharaj about the thread in Poland, and have thought about the whole thing since then as well.
As you can surely guess, I have strong opinions on this matter (also). In some ways, I am very conservative, perhaps more so than most others here. So you are forewarned!
I am strongly in favour of giving the thread. Not that it really matters, since Guru Maharaja has made a decision on the matter. But for the sake of the discussion, this is where I stand. Mostly I guess this is because I strongly identify myself as a brahmin and am very attached to the rules and details that go along with this varna. (I was honestly terrified that GM would have asked us all to remove the threads.) But also because I associate with many devotees of other Gaudiya Math missions, and like to identify myself with Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's movement in a broad sense. I also interact a lot with Indians, and they of course understand the idea of the upavita, and the daiva-varnashrama ideology. Yoga people can also relate to the idea of "priests" and initiations.
If we start disbanding the daiva-varnashrama idea, where do we draw the line? How much sense does it make to have sannyasis (and no sannyasinis)?
I don't buy the "spiritual equality"-argument. Yes, we are all equal, but Shri Krishna has created four varnas, and they exist independent of our opinions. That doesn't have to mean that a brahmin is "better" than a shudra, but that he or she is different. To me, it would make sense to give the thread only to some people, perhaps even only to "priests", persons that would be expected to live up to a more brahminical ideal than others (though everyone would get the mantras, or at least six out of seven, the first being Vedic). But it would be difficult to not in this way create the image of 1st and 2nd class devotees.
Why don't women get the thread? Perhaps they should get it, but I don't see why they would have to. After all, men and women are different in so many other ways, and even though we are spiritual practitioners, we are profoundly embodied beings. Devotees may engage in intensive sadhana and sadhu sanga for years without being freed from the conception of being man or woman. We see this in every sanga. Would having the same attributes really change this? I doubt that very much. However, if men were given the thread as a sign of being "priests", then there should be some other sign for women, perhaps a special kind of kanthimala or something like that. (You can see that I like differences, Madan!)
Your servant
Bhrigu
Madan Gopal Das - August 12, 2011 4:27 pm
As you can surely guess, I have strong opinions on this matter (also). In some ways, I am very conservative, perhaps more so than most others here. So you are forewarned!
Good, I like thinking about this from different angles, and I have thought from your angle a lot too. Thanks for giving your input.
I am strongly in favour of giving the thread... Mostly I guess this is because I strongly identify myself as a brahmin and am very attached to the rules and details that go along with this varna.
Personally, I think that's fine, it works for you... I also identify with some of the rules and details, but I feel like I more strongly identify with the Gaudiya spirit which seeks the essential, devotional self underneath it all. naham vipro na ca nara-patir... Mahaprabhu's example was that of working within the culture of India at the time, while also emphasizing a higher transcendent understanding. He acted as a brahmana, ate food cooked by brahmanas, etc. His devotees who were of lower caste also observed the culture, i.e. Thakur Haridas not attempting to enter the Jagannatha temple.
I tend to feel like in our situation, when most of us are by such varnasrama considerations quite low on the spectrum of class, what is the purpose any longer in trying to demonstrate that we fit into such a system, especially when it is not the culture that we are submerged in? Rupa and Sanatana, Haridas and others went about their deeply spiritual lives in peace with the social system that surrounded them. For most of us, our social surroundings are entirely detached from a Hindu/varnasrama context to even make an argument by following their customs that we are also brahmanas. Furthermore, for those who are in such a context at times I'm having doubts that the argument even gets very far. My wife for example teaches Bharat-natyam. Despite being quite skilled and knowlegeable in the art, there is a certain "Hindu ceiling" :Big Grin: that in social circumstances is really quite difficult to penetrate. Saying that, I acknowledge that some people may feel comfortable in those situations and subtly preaching a spiritual principle (daiva-varnasrama) in a Hindu social context. But I also find that a lot of Hindus are steadfastly attached to varnasrama, while the daiva part they'll only go so far with.
But also because I associate with many devotees of other Gaudiya Math missions, and like to identify myself with Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's movement in a broad sense. I also interact a lot with Indians, and they of course understand the idea of the upavita, and the daiva-varnashrama ideology. Yoga people can also relate to the idea of "priests" and initiations.
For myself I'm making sure not to think of this in any way rejecting the innovations of BSST, but rather a context issue wherein such innovation seems to have run its course. I also find myself deeply identifying with the spirit of Bhaktivinoda, who didn't wear the thread, and in whose saragrahi spirit BSST made such changes. In my experience, yoga people identify with initiations, but not necessarily with cultural trappings.
If we start disbanding the daiva-varnashrama idea, where do we draw the line? How much sense does it make to have sannyasis (and no sannyasinis)?
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying about sannyasis/sannyasinis... Re. daiva-varnasrama though, I like the way GM advocates a kind of essential varnasrama, placing people in the right foundation in which they can pursue their spiritual aspirations to the fullest. It doesn't seem to me that the bits and pieces of external things relevant to varnasrama are necessary to advocate or pursue this practice of psychological and situational balance.
I don't buy the "spiritual equality"-argument.
I agree that the divisions are naturally present in human society, but there are also unlimited varieties and mixes of those divisions such that practicing them just in relation to an Indian/Hindu/Vedic culture seems like a narrow view. As for living up to a brahminical ideal, I don't see how the thread assists that.
Please don't misunderstand that I'm an anti-Indian culture kind of person. There is plenty I like and appreciate, and I'm married to a women who often says that she's brown on the inside and white on the outside! 
But there is a degree I feel like I can appreciate aspects of the culture without artificially forcing my way in, or pretending like the culture is freely open to anyone.
To me, it would make sense to give the thread only to some people, perhaps even only to "priests", persons that would be expected to live up to a more brahminical ideal than others (though everyone would get the mantras, or at least six out of seven, the first being Vedic). But it would be difficult to not in this way create the image of 1st and 2nd class devotees.
This is why what we're shooting for here is more of a focus on diksa which is a spiritual rite, rather than upanayanam which is a social rite. The philosophy that BSST established upanayanam on was that someone who has undergone diksa has all qualification to for example chant the vedas, etc. The first gayatri mantra is Vedic, and by the Vedic social standards women and those of low birth should not be able to chant it. Yet Prabhupada gave that to women unlike his godbrothers. Instances like this demonstrate that we are following a different process than Vedic, or smarta, we are practicing a pancaratric path. I like to think of one story of the tirobhava of Narottama Thakur, who was of a mixed birth. In one account a shining golden thread appears on his body after he has passed away, to defeat the protests of the exclusivist brahmanas who challenged his status as an initiator of brahmanas.
Why don't women get the thread? Perhaps they should get it, but I don't see why they would have to. After all, men and women are different in so many other ways
But spiritual initiation, the pancharatric rite is for anyone. Therefore the idea to separate the upanayanam out and take this process back to its spiritual root.
Thanks for showing up here Bhrigu. Everyone who knows you knows your brahminical nature, and I don't think we'd want to change that one bit or challenge your sense of identity. It is precisely why I hoped for your comments.
Kalpataru Dasa - August 13, 2011 7:00 am
As the one of the first "threadless" initiates I just want to add on the personal note that I'm very glad. At first I was a bit dissipointed. I associated the thread as a part of a sacred ritual into a mysterius order, so I felt little bit left out in comparision to my spiritual brothers 
. Now, however I'm happy, because, first - I can really feel that this is about the mantras, nothing else, and second - living in a nondevotional enviroment, being involved in the everyday life I would find it kind of bothersome to follow all the thread regulations, etc, like I did feel before, when wearing the thread from the Iskcon times.
Subal Das - May 16, 2014 2:52 am
Great topic and one I have spent much time pondering. This is my first comment on TV, please send your honest feedback.
As background I received diksa mantras and thread from Bir Krsna Maharaj in 1996 at the age of 18. The following are my thoughts on diksa and the thread along with some questions and possibility for discussion.
After receiving Harinam I was supposed to wait the standard 12 months until receiving diksa mantras. This was shortened because the temple needed cooks and I was glad to take up cooking in exchange for brahmana status. The standard for eligibility to preform deity worship on the alter and cook on a flame was diksa. I had a very strong desire to worship the deitys from my first visit to the temple, so after cooking for some time I was trained in deity worship and then happily engaged as Radha Golokananda,s pujari for several years. As far as I was concerned, sacred thread was the key to the pujari room. I never thought about the tread in terms of vanashram status or a preaching tool for ethnic hindus.
That having been said, what is the GV requirement for worshiping Radha Krsna in the temple? Diksa? Sacred thread? Please respond.
I follow the reasoning that we aren't preaching varnashram or specifically to ethnic hindus, and so the thread is symbolic and not essential to spiritual practice. If the thread is external than the only value it will have is the value we consciously give it. Here is my personal list of reasons to wear the thread:
-necessary or related to the worship of the deity (let's have input on this one)
-It is a reminder to myself that is must live with brahminical qualities such as peacefulness, self-control, austerity, purity, tolerance, honesty, knowledge, wisdom, and religiousness. BG 18.42 This is the instruction I got from Bir Krsna Maharaja many times.
-It is a reminder to others to hold me to the standard of BG 18.42.
-It has value because my guru gave it to me.
I gave up wearing the thread years ago after neglecting my sadana and no longer feeling qualified to worship the deity. If the thread was for deity worship then I was unqualified to worship or wear the thread. By GM's instructions and the sanga's association I have revived my sadana and my dreams of worshiping the deity. Thus these questions about the thread and diksa are going around in my head. Sorry if I've been long winded. This has been weighing on my conscience for many years.
Citta Hari Dasa - May 16, 2014 2:14 pm
If you have the diksa mantras then you can worship the Deity, thread or no thread. The thread is a nonessential that may or may not be part of receiving diksa; women receive no thread and yet are fully able to worship the arca-vigraha. In the time of Bhaktivinoda Thakura Gaudiyas would take off their threads upon receiving Vaisnava diksa in the acknowledgement that Vaisnavas are above brahmanas. Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakura gave his disciples the thread to show the smarta brahmana community that Vaisnavas are qualified to perform Vedic rituals. These days Guru Maharaja only requires the thread to be worn by the monks in consideration of the fact that in the West the thread has no spiritual or cultural significance and it could make it more difficult for those living in householder situations to appear normal. 