Tattva-viveka
Vaisnava Diksa (FB discussion and beyond)
Prema-bhakti - December 14, 2013 2:55 am
I really mostly dread participating on the FB threads when it is mainly debates between SP disciples because the tone can sometimes be off putting and also because I am not so practiced in debate or have the command of knowledge most of the other devotees have.
Recently, I did make a comment on the Female Diksa Guru thread in support of a comment Urmila dasi made. I did wind up in a short back and forth with a devotee named Gaura Kesava. I bring this up because I am not very clear on what transpired in terms of what his point is in regards to defining diksa, etc. I thought I was pretty clear on it but it seems I am missing something.
Recently, Ashrama Maharaja posted a quote on the same thread and I am not really sure how that relates to the topic either.
I would appreciate any clarification.
Swami B. A. Ashram - December 14, 2013 2:58 am
Here's the quotation Prema refers to, which I got from Urmila:
Rights for spiritual initiation, by Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati
"Without understanding the teachings of Śrīmad Bhāgavatam and the concept of bondage and liberation, many people are bereft of the opportunity of receiving spiritual initiation. No learned follower of sanātana-dharma can disagree with the principle that each male and female has the right to spiritual initiation. The spirit soul is not a male or a female of this material world. There are many social and worldly duties which display their prominence due to a lack of realization of one’s constitutional position. One is advised to surpass all those conceptions and proceed on the path of devotional service."
— From Patrāmṛta, Nectar from the Letters, translated by Bhumipati Dasa, 2012, published by Isvara Dasa, Touchstone Media, Kolkata. Thakura Prabhupada
Swami B. A. Ashram - December 14, 2013 2:59 am
I have suggested that this excerpt may raise the question of whether the principle Srila Sarasvati Thakura asserts may not work in the other direction as well.
Prema-bhakti - December 14, 2013 9:39 am
Thanks Maharaja, yes I see what you mean now.
Prema-bhakti - December 14, 2013 1:44 pm
I just read Gaura Kesava's reply to Guru Nistha. I am not going to re-post it here unless necessary but I would like someone to please comment on it here. As I was writing this, I just saw that Guru Maharaja did. Here is his reply. I have the Art of Sadhana which he refers to and I will try to find the quotes.
Pramode Puri Goswami has written in Art of Sadhana with references (don't have the book where) that mantras must be empowered by the guru to be effective. This indicates a degree of realization on the part of the guru is required. Arguably the kind ofspiritual standing described everywhere in sastra—samit pani strotriyam brahma nistham, etc.
However. Puri Goswami goes on to explain that all Krsna mantras, unlike others, are already alive and empowered and thus do not need such empowerment by the guru. This would indicate that they do not need to be heard from a self realized guru to be effective. Sri Jiva Goswami has also said that just as Krsna nama is not dependent upon diksa, similarly the Krsna mantra made primarily of Krsna nama is also independent to act as it sees fit. That said, it sees fit to reveal itself, like Krsna nama, through guru parampara, not otherwise. It must therefore be received from a guru, not just anyone, and arguably not just any Vaisnava.
So the question here, as I understand it and that has been discussed at some length already is (to put it differently), whether there is a difference between a Vaisnava and Vaisnava guru. Are all Vaisnavas gurus in the sense of being capable of giving diksa? Or do they require some qualification/realization that makes them Vaisnava gurus, as opposed to merely Vaisnavas? Do they become gurus by giving the mantra or do they become gurus by another standard and only then are they qualified to give the mantra?
What GKD seems to be saying is that one needs a very qualified guru to advance, but that diksa itself can be given by one not so advanced. Hence the emphasis on the siksa guru. Personally I prefer to put the two together—the advanced, qualified-by-realization guru and diksa. This makes it no only incumbent upon the prospective disciple to understand the qualifications of the guru (difficult for the novice) but also upon the initiated Vaisnavas themselves. In other words, such initiated Vaisnavas should help the novice and honestly say on the strength of their learning and realization that although someone may be inspired by them, they themselves are not qualified to give diksa, while pointing to someone who is.
Prema-bhakti - December 14, 2013 2:13 pm
I really wanted to post on FB that those who promote apasiddhantic ideas ( and well whose mission is an apasampradaya) are neither qualified to give any type of mantra what to speak of argue that someone who is female can not do the same but...I held my tongue and didn't feel like hearing the replies. 
But I do want to try and understand the points GM brings up here and which GK brought up.
When there are statements from HBV like, "The process by which divine knowledge (divya jnana) is given and sins are destroyed is called diksa by highly learned scholars who are expert in spiritual affairs." If I remember correctly, Sri Jiva also states like this maybe quoting this statement as support in Bhakti Sandarbha in regards to diksa and divya jnana. Are we to understand that these type of statements imply siksa that will be imparted by the guru in future or do they also imply some sacred transmission at the time of diksa initiation?
Prema-bhakti - December 14, 2013 2:47 pm
I am reading the section "The Guru and Initiation" in, The Art of Sadhana, I found this interesting.
After quoting the "srotriyam brahma-nistham" verse Srila Puri Maharaja writes, "The essential characteristic of the spiritual master , then, is that he possesses knowledge of the three categories: sambandha, abhideya, and prayojana. This is why the CC says, "One who knows the truth about Krishna is qualified to be guru. " (jei krsna-tattva-vetta sei guru haya).
In my estimation at least it is clear that the vaisnava guru is not an ordinary person and if one reads further the entire section supports this point supports this fact.
Maharaja quotes the bell metal into gold example from HBV and then explains that not just anyone is a qualified alchemist.
Dulal Chandra Dasa - December 14, 2013 3:04 pm
Dear Prema-bhakti,
Although I appreciate your apprehension and reluctance to engage in the more public dialogue conducted on the FaceBook group GVRA (Gaudiya Vaisnavism Real and Apparent), I would beg you kindly reconsider for the following reasons.
One of my main reasons for starting this group was to expose the greater western gaudiya community, especially those under various misconceptions perpetrated by ISKCON's leadership, to meaningful dialogue that would be truly beneficial to their spiritual development. These sincere devotees do not have access to such dialogue and are unfortunately discouraged from even seeking it by institutional mandate as evidenced by the below description of Siksa Outside ISKCON by Sivarama Swami;
"What is Srila Prabhupada’s understanding of Siksa for his followers? This paper offers the following answers:
1. The association of Vaisnavas, and the instructions they impart, Siksa, are the assured means of success for spiritual practitioners. This is the injunction of Sastra.
2. However, Srila Prabhupada observed that when his followers received instructions outside ISKCON, their devotional practices, for various reasons, became impaired.
3.Therefore, Srila Prabhupada directed his followers to take Siksa solely from ISKCON’s members."
such misrepresentations and misconceived dictates are unfortunate and demand our compassionate rectification.
Fortunately institutional mandate cannot stop the truly inquisitive students from visiting such forums as GVRA and reading the dialogue of the progressive and well informed sanga there.
Such cloistered students need exposure to offerings which hold true value such as yours. By reading such exchanges made by a sincere sadhaka outside ISKCON the benefits of receiving deep, profound, relevant and progressive siksa from a modern day saint and guru, in the true sense of the term, are highlighted.
Your dialogue is revenant and needs to be heard, it glorifies your guru in the best possible way and I cannot encourage it enough. So please, please keep posting.
As for our esteemed godbrother Gaura Keshava Prabhu, his contributions cannot be praised enough. I sit at his feet in awe and have learned much from him in conducting dignified and meaningful dialogue over the years. Unfortunately, such learning has ofttimes been accompanied by some personal pain due to his unique approach. But rest assured he is a true vaisnava who has your, and the entire vaisnava's community, best interest at heart.
But we do not agree with him on everything, and this is one of those instances. When, and it is infrequent, there is such disagreement regarding proper siddhantic understanding, know for certain that someone will have your back. In this instance Guru Maharaja personally came to the rescue. That considered, can you really feel any dread from your participation?
Prema-bhakti - December 14, 2013 3:06 pm
Here some quotes from, "The Art of Sadhana" I posted on FB thread.
I am looking at the section in The Art of Sadhana called, "The Guru and Initiation." There is a lot there supporting the qualification of a vaisnava guru and how it relates to the effectiveness of initiation. Srila Puri Maharaja quotes the verse about bell metal turning to gold from the HBV and explains that anybody can go around saying they are an alchemist, etc. He writes, "We may say the same of initiation: though the above verse indicates that through diksa an ordary person gains the qualities of a brahmana, when a so called guru makes a mere show of imitating without the appropriate knowledge or expertise, no good can be expected to come of it."
cont'd. "If one has not oneself come to possess the advanced spiritual understanding, that is if one has not yet come to possess the advanced spiritual understanding, that is, if one has not come to e a knower of Krsna as the supreme truth, (krsna-tattva-vetta) and he has not become free of sinful activity as a consequence of that knowledge, and still takes the responsibility of giving out initiation, then the result is the same as that of a blind person leading the other blind person into a ditch."
There is another section called "Initiation is the Transmission of Divine Knowledge". He again quotes HBV, "Divyam jnanam yato dadyat." and support that statement.
Dulal Chandra Dasa - December 14, 2013 3:12 pm
You go girl !
Oh my, is that not appropriate :Shame On You:
Oh well, kudos.
Prema-bhakti - December 14, 2013 3:15 pm
Dulal Prabhu,
Thank you for the support. But I am not just posturing here, I really don't have the breath of knowledge of these devotees and although I may feel sometimes I know the proper conclusions, I still remain unsure and therefore choose to either just read or bow out. Although, I am no wall flower, I do think it is an art and a good quality to know when one is over one's head or in some cases over the top...It really isn't my forte or nature to deal with all the back and forth. That said, I thank you and will speak when I feel I can. I tend to only read comments by those I know have a proper understanding anyway. I do not follow the latest ISKCON news or policies or read position papers or ISKCON propaganda publications. I'm glad some of us do for the purpose of helping others gain a proper understanding, but as for me I dont have a stomach for it or the qualification and it is always the SOS just a different day and even crazier than a decade ago mostly.
Prema-bhakti - December 14, 2013 3:20 pm
Guru Maharaja has everyone's back. 
And we know why, "strotriyam brahma-nistham.."
Prema-bhakti - December 14, 2013 3:45 pm
Im reposting my original q again because it kind of got lost.
But I do want to try and understand the points GM brings up here and which GK brought up.
When there are statements from HBV like, "The process by which divine knowledge (divya jnana) is given and sins are destroyed is called diksa by highly learned scholars who are expert in spiritual affairs." If I remember correctly, Sri Jiva also states like this maybe quoting this statement as support in Bhakti Sandarbha in regards to diksa and divya jnana. Are we to understand that these type of statements imply siksa that will be imparted by the guru in future and/or do they also imply some sacred transmission at the time of diksa initiation?
Prema-bhakti - December 14, 2013 4:29 pm
Another issue for me that arises in participating in such forums, is that I spent almost 20 years in ISKCON involved in management of outreach, etc.and was forced to see my teachers in a relative way. Fortunately, I knew better and so did some senior devotees I associated with but it cast a huge shadow of misconception far and wide. It was a nightmare and the walking on eggshells in fear of offending SP disciples was torturous. Every year after a Mayapur meeting there was some mandate to legislate and limit our perception of guru. I longed for a real relationship with my teachers based on siddhanta and genuine affection.
Sometimes these forums and the decorum displayed conjure up those same feelings and I don't have the stamina or desire to deal with it. I am SOOOOOOO TIRED of it!!!!!!
I have won the lottery here and I want to live in subjective reality so to speak. 
So I prefer the more private forums. Maybe it isn't the most magnanimous expression but if I live it perhaps my example more than my words which are very limited in potency and knowledge can help others move forward as well.
Sorry I'm done now. 
Prema-bhakti - December 14, 2013 6:43 pm
I found this quote from GM on the thread interesting and which raised some questions for me.
"No problem in this case for the progressive madhyama. A ruci-bhakta is a madhyama. Do you want to extend it lower to nistha? But I think what we have seen more readily is kanistha gurus and the many problems associated with that."
In my years in ISKCON, I feel I have associated with many sincere sadhakas who at some point seemed progressive in my limited
estimation. Progressively studying sastra, SP books and those of other acaryas, taking guidance from a siksa guru, interest in bhajan, spending time in the dhama nurturing their own practice. Many of these devotees were initiating gurus in ISKCON. In the very least, I would have considered these devotees good association and progressive sadhakas and many gave me very pertinent assistance in my spiritual journey.
As years have gone on, sadly I have noticed that many of these sadhakas have adopted behaviors and understandings that reflect a confused if not completely "off" understanding of basic Gaudiya tenets. What happened? I have concluded in many cases it is the result of compounded Vaisnava aparadha and/or
exposure to it that has caused a major tailspin. This to me doesn't negate the fact that they were progressive at some point in time or think this is a common scenario but more an exception which seems prevalent in ISKCON mostly. I am also not advocating that they were at the stage of ruci but many were progressive and not displaying what would obviously be deemed kanistha behavior.
In one sense, this progressive behavior should not have regressed but should have progressed thus no need for further consideration or analysis but it hasn't. Things have changed and relationships change and dynamics change which at least makes a strong argument for not legislating who is guru, etc., in my estimation.
Gopala Dasa - December 14, 2013 8:49 pm
In one sense, this progressive behavior should not have regressed but should have progressed thus no need for further consideration or analysis but it hasn't. Things have changed and relationships change and dynamics change which at least makes a strong argument for not legislating who is guru, etc., in my estimation.
What qualifies as progressive today may be regressive tomorrow. GM sometimes says something like, "Try to keep up with me." In Iskcon I certainly met devotees whom I considered to be progressive for a given period of time, or relative to other voices in the mission. I was very attracted to such devotees. Really without exception those devotees have been discouraged, typically to the point of exiting the group. That exit may be progressive in one sense, but the positive step of re-positioning oneself with respect to siksa is something else. There are throngs of such devotees out there, who are (usually) quietly disillusioned with Iskcon and/or their initiating gurus yet paralyzed, as if waiting for improbable rectification. I am thinking especially of the devotees who came around in the 1990's, now in their late 30's and 40's.
Prema-bhakti - December 14, 2013 9:05 pm
I agree with you totally Gopal.
What I was kind of getting at is that there is a point in some of these cases, it seems of no return. Not just paralysis or stgnation or even some kind of human weakness or sin of the flesh but when one goes from a basic proper conception of siddhanta to an all out fabricated idea. From guru tattva to rtvik conception. Of course as you say, when one lacks appropriate siksa or the ability/humility to re-position oneself or to appropriately conduct oneself in regards to a siksa guru that is another story, an often fatal one as we have experienced.
Gopala Dasa - December 14, 2013 9:18 pm
Here some quotes from, "The Art of Sadhana" I posted on FB thread.
I am looking at the section in The Art of Sadhana called, "The Guru and Initiation." There is a lot there supporting the qualification of a vaisnava guru and how it relates to the effectiveness of initiation. Srila Puri Maharaja quotes the verse about bell metal turning to gold from the HBV and explains that anybody can go around saying they are an alchemist, etc. He writes, "We may say the same of initiation: though the above verse indicates that through diksa an ordary person gains the qualities of a brahmana, when a so called guru makes a mere show of imitating without the appropriate knowledge or expertise, no good can be expected to come of it."
cont'd. "If one has not oneself come to possess the advanced spiritual understanding, that is if one has not yet come to possess the advanced spiritual understanding, that is, if one has not come to e a knower of Krsna as the supreme truth, (krsna-tattva-vetta) and he has not become free of sinful activity as a consequence of that knowledge, and still takes the responsibility of giving out initiation, then the result is the same as that of a blind person leading the other blind person into a ditch."
There is another section called "Initiation is the Transmission of Divine Knowledge". He again quotes HBV, "Divyam jnanam yato dadyat." and support that statement.
Great chapter. Sril Puri Maharaja writes, "One should not think of the mantra, the mantra-devata, and the guru as being distinct from each other." So yes, while harinama and krsna-mantra are independent, that independence is in one sense theoretical to the sadhaka, who is more interested in the mantra's "dependence" on sri guru. Overemphasis of independence might seem unbecoming to such a sadhaka. Puri Maharaja cites, "acaryam mam vijaniyan..." from SB.
Prema-bhakti - December 14, 2013 9:20 pm
Nice point Gopal. Thanks.
Madan Gopal Das - December 15, 2013 2:12 am
I just saw this thread after keeping up with the FB discussion. Thanks Prema for discussing the point here some as well as there. Thanks also to Gopa Kumara. Gaura Keshava is great in many ways, and yet super argumentative in other ways. On the issue of reinitiation we have had a consistent disagreement which I've tried with anecdotal evidence and several other means to nuance or try to have him take a softer stance and yet he consistently goes rigid and insists on sastric evidence. If I argue that there is none, just as there is none for institutionalized Vaisnavism or many of the modern facets of GV, and that philosophical consideration of time, place, circumstance is required, he just circles back to demanding sastra and misses the point. On re-initiation he seems to have difficulty philosophizing and instead gets fundamentalist, religious, non-"spiritual" in the sense of the "spirit" of the text. (Coincidentally, the spirit of the text is revealed to us by the guru.) Gaura-keshava is definitely not that way in all subjects, though his personality of vigorous debate is usually there.
Prema-bhakti - December 15, 2013 11:42 am
I notice that whenever the conversation veers to implicit faith in guru that is when he mostly gets demanding for sastra, etc., as if to undermine that faith. This speaks to my point of not having an interest in these forums. It is like a knee jerk reaction (an emotional response). His desire for Bhakta Joe seems to be the desire for himself.
Prema-bhakti - December 15, 2013 11:56 am
I also want to speak to the post here about Sivarama Swami and his position on siksa guru. Sivarama Swami has taken siksa outside of ISKCON. For all we know, he still does. That kind of hypocrisy has no place in Vaisnava circles what to speak of on a sastric committee. I do not read what he writes nor do I read his books on lila which are in the very least questionable and which clearly reflect outside siksa. I consider any connection with someone like that undesirable.
I will not pay any lip service of any kind to those "leaders", so I prefer to just stay away and that also means most of the time to stay away from ISKCON anything and everything because when you preach actual siddhanta (not sentiment or politics) most times it registers as an offence in the minds of those members.
I do agree with Gopal there is a large faction of devotees that I feel are most receptive, "There are throngs of such devotees out there, who are (usually) quietly disillusioned with Iskcon and/or their initiating gurus yet paralyzed, as if waiting for improbable rectification. I am thinking especially of the devotees who came around in the 1990's, now in their late 30's and 40's." I know quite a few. At one point in time, I was one of them.