Tattva-viveka
ajnata sukrti
Nava-yauvana Dasa - May 15, 2014 12:17 pm
Hari Haribol!
Of course, I understand that any kind of help in performing a sacrifire/oblation benefits all persons who help but when the cows are forced and the calves killed even - how can it benefit them at all? Is this possible to call it "ajnata-sukrti"?Gauravani Dasa - May 15, 2014 5:56 pm
Ramana-reti, these are good questions.
Personally, I find it difficult to justify the suffering of tortured dairy cows, even if their milk is offered to Krishna. I worry that the reasoning used to support this practice is the same reasoning that could be used to justify other types of suffering, even our own (in the form of tapa or phalgu vairagya), in the name of bhakti. Our ideal of bhakti involves service to Guru and Gauranga without interruption and with no ulterior motive. The condition in which tortured cows are milked cannot even be described as voluntary, much less devotional in nature. In Guru Maharaja's commentary to Gita 9.26, he describes how the ideal offering starts with plowing the ground, planting the seed, watering the plants, harvesting the fruit, picking the vegetables, cooking the ingredients, and finally the offering itself. Such absorption in the process of producing fruits and vegetables should also be applied to taking care of the cows whose milk is offered to Krishna.
Nava-yauvana Dasa - May 19, 2014 7:31 am
Dear Gauravani,
thank you for your answer - my way of thinking about this topic is quite the same: it`s difficult to justify the suffering of anybody just by "mercy of Krsna" or by benefit for this suffering person/creature.
And my question about ajnata sukriti still is the same: what is the definition of it? Where can I find it? Thank you for your quote from GM`s Bg 9.26 commentary but it seems to me that it speaks about the benefit for the devotee who is involve in devotional activities. Wat about the benefit for vegetables and other living entities? The devotees always tell that all souls benefits when they are involve (somehow or another) in the service of Krsna. I understand this point: even the demons who acted against Krsna benefits. But I have a doubt because they acting voluntary and intentionally. What if we involve others in "devotional service" by force or without letting them know what they are doing actually? Is this really ajnata sukriti?
Citta Hari Dasa - May 19, 2014 11:09 pm
Bhaktivinoda Thakura has stated that the two essential spiritual principles are to chant krsna-nama and to jiva-daya, to be merciful to jivas, which naturally would include cows. I think that since there is a choice to not use milk from himsa dairies we should exercise it and if we have no access to ahimsa milk then it's better avoided. Some may say that in Kali yuga all food is compromised in some way so it makes no difference. That may be true but to my way of thinking cows are particularly dear to Govinda and to even indirectly take part in their exploitation is not something that would be pleasing to him. As for the idea that veganism is atheistic, I find that hard to relate to.
Braja-sundari Dasi - May 20, 2014 12:35 pm
Bhaktivinoda Thakura has stated that the two essential spiritual principles are to chant krsna-nama and to jiva-daya, to be merciful to jivas, which naturally would include cows. I think that since there is a choice to not use milk from himsa dairies we should exercise it and if we have no access to ahimsa milk then it's better avoided. Some may say that in Kali yuga all food is compromised in some way so it makes no difference. That may be true but to my way of thinking cows are particularly dear to Govinda and to even indirectly take part in their exploitation is not something that would be pleasing to him. As for the idea that veganism is atheistic, I find that hard to relate to.
I think it is not so black and white... Most vegans use a lot of soy products which involves in many cases cuting down forests and harming (including killing) indigenous people. Agriculture is violent in itself.
US reality might be also different from reality of other countries. In US industrial milk production seems really demoniac. In countries like Costa Rica I suspect most cows from himsa farms live more happily then holy cows in India. Can we say that milk from Costa Rican cow is unofferable since cow is going to be slaughtered in a few years, although the cow is free to spend whole day in the pasture and spends fair amount of time with her calf? And consider milk from Indian cow oferable because she won`t be slaughtered although the cow is beaten up, put on very short rope and eats garbage? Who is to evaluate which suffering is worse?
Personally I would leave to Krishna the judgment which milk he wants to accept. Since he only accepts love I would think that from the hand of pure devotee he accepts anything and from very self motivated person he might not accept anything, reardless how pure the food is. We should act according to our conscience, not point our finger at others.
Braja-sundari Dasi - May 20, 2014 2:40 pm
I remember Guru Maharaj was discussing this thing with us in Madhuvan few years ago. He mentioned that for persons who have no access to ahimsa milk good thing would be to think what is the highest price they would be able to pay for such milk. and then such a devotee could buy regular milk but save the difference in price and then offer it for cow protection projects. This appeals to me more then just demanding people become vegan regardless of their situation. And it is also active approach. Being vegan is passive "I don`t involve in abusing animals". Paying for cow protection is active- helps in real life to save a cow, be it cow in Indian goshala or Western shelter for retired animals.
In Madhuvan we have no problem with accomodating vegan people and we do not challenge their choice. Why not trying it in other temples? People woudn`t have to "reject" prasadam
Nava-yauvana Dasa - May 21, 2014 7:09 pm
Dear Citta Hari,
thank you for your answer; I couldn`t expect other answer from a person who is gopala 
but my question which appeared in regard "vegan issue" wasn`t to drink or not to drink milk from industrial farming - for me the answer is quite simply and I shared your opinion;
what I find interesting in this topic is - what is ajnta sukriti and where in the scripture can I find the statements that others benefit when we involve them in some way to perform devotional service? even by force, with the violence or when they are unaware of it?
I can find many statements that we benefit - the person who is performing some limb of bhakti but can`t find any about others benefit
I have impression (but maybe I`m wrong) that it is a big misuderstanding amongs devotees in this regard;
for example:
- some devotees say that cows benefit when we offer their milk to Krsna, even if they suffer a lot to produce this milk and, only by offering it we give meaning to their miserable life; they call this action "ajnata- sukriti" and are sure that cows make a spiritual progres by it (then - they says - that vegans are actually atheists because they don`t want to involve others in devotional service)
but I wonder how a cow from industrial farming benefit? and which one? every cows?
- or the devotees used to offer to Krsna a field of corn/ wheat or whatever just to make the farmers work "ajnata sukriti" and in that way elevate them;
but I wonder what if the corn will be used to produce an alcohol or will be a food for the slaughtered animals? can we still call this ajnata-sukriti?
I`ve heard an opinion of a senior devotee from Vrndavan that the concept of anjata-sukriti is contrary to bhakti even, which I find very interesting but unfortunately I can`t ask this devotee personally;
Braja-sundari Dasi - May 22, 2014 1:57 am
:
- some devotees say that cows benefit when we offer their milk to Krsna, even if they suffer a lot to produce this milk and, only by offering it we give meaning to their miserable life; they call this action "ajnata- sukriti" and are sure that cows make a spiritual progres by it (then - they says - that vegans are actually atheists because they don`t want to involve others in devotional service)
but I wonder how a cow from industrial farming benefit? and which one? every cows?
- or the devotees used to offer to Krsna a field of corn/ wheat or whatever just to make the farmers work "ajnata sukriti" and in that way elevate them;
but I wonder what if the corn will be used to produce an alcohol
I`ve heard an opinion of a senior devotee from Vrndavan that the concept of anjata-sukriti is contrary to bhakti even, which I find very interesting but unfortunately I can`t ask this devotee personally;
My understanding of offering is that we offer our devotion through the medium of offered item. Whether or not Krishna accepts this offering and whether or not plants or cows get benefit from it is also up to Krishna. I believe that whatever advanced devotee offers has power to give ajnata sukriti for any cow, plant, herb that contributed to that offering. If he (like for instance, Srila Prabhupada) decides that the milk should be offered it is possible that each and every cow whose milk was offered gets some blessing. Krishna knows about every atom, no problem for him to trace different embodies souls. I don`t know if it happens automatically or rather when pure devotee has such intention in mind.
But "offering" of corn field for the benefit of farmer and corn is not offering- it is not meant for Krishna`s pleasure. It is misconception that we have power over Krishna Such a person in fact puts Krishna among devatas who are forced to offer a boon if someone performs proper ritual (although in this case even the ritual itself is doubtful ). Usually it is done by young, enthusiastic devotees who lack proper understanding. I used to "offer" strawberries that people carried in their baskets 
Unfortunately at the moment i cannot think of any sastric references connected to benefits for the plants being offered or cows who give the milk for the offering 
Braja-sundari Dasi - May 22, 2014 2:44 am
Not food related but this verse speaks of power of pure devotees:
Bhaktivedanta VedaBase: Narada Bhakti Sutra 69
tirthi-kurvanti tirthani su-karmi-kurvanti karmani sac-chastri-kurvanti sastrani
SYNONYMS
tirthi -- into holy places; kurvanti -- they make; tirthani -- the holy places; su-karmi -- into auspicious works; kurvanti -- they make; karmani -- works; sat -- pure; sastri -- into scriptures; kurvanti -- they make; sastrani -- the scriptures.
TRANSLATION
Their association makes holy places holy, works auspicious, and the scriptures authoritative.
Citta Hari Dasa - May 22, 2014 12:43 pm
One thing that comes to mind in this is that the devotee's realization must be taken into account. A bhava-bhakta may be able to offer milk from any cow and have Krsna accept it but I'm not so sure just anyone could do so.
How the concept of ajnata-sukrti could be contrary to bhakti I cannot even begin to fathom. Does this "senior" devotee know the philosophy at all?
Braja-sundari Dasi - May 22, 2014 5:24 pm
Yeah, who would deny ajnata sukriti? Was that devotee himself/herself saying it doesn`t exist or someone else was claiming it? People sometimes don`t understand someone`s statement properly and then repeat it incorrectly.
Someone has to be preaching like that because I`ve seen Satyanarayana Babaji being asked question about it. His reply though was more about distinguishing ajnata sukriti from someone engaging unknowgly in svarupa siddha bhakti. But I guess it is off topic, maybe we should have another thread about it
Bhrigu - June 1, 2014 2:18 pm
I looked up ajnata sukriti in the Gaudiya Vaishnava Abhidhana (Encyclopedia) but the word is not listed. "Sukritin" in the sense of "fortunate" is found in BG 7.16 (and CC 2.24.94). But I have not found an exposition of the idea of ajnata sukriti in the commentary of any acharya on this verse.
Braja-sundari Dasi - June 1, 2014 6:06 pm
So where is the term used for the first time?
Bhrigu - June 2, 2014 11:54 am
Shrila Prabhupada mentions the term in his commentary to SB 4.21.27, but I have not been able to find it in any standard Gaudiya Vaishnava texts. I will try to find out if is used in Gaudiya Math circles.
Braja-sundari Dasi - June 2, 2014 10:36 pm
It seems that it is also accepted by Sri Vaisnavas. At least those that made this website:
https://www.trsiyengar.com/id53.shtml
Bhakty-unmukhi-sukriti - is an auspicious activity that gradually awakens one's dormant devotion, bhakti to Lord Vishnu. When somebody unknowingly does something to a devotee of Lord Vishnu or just out of fun gives some kind of donation to a Vishnu or Krishna temple; without knowing the result of his deed that is called agyata-sukriti or unknown pious activity. This agyata sukriti is the first step in bhakty-unmukhi sukriti or spiritual pious activity that awakens Krishna-bhakti. As one becomes purified by agyata sukriti, at one point one becomes inquisitive about God, the spiritual activities and their results. In this way one comes to the higher level of pious activity from agyata to gyata sukriti namely when ones spiritual activities are carried out with knowledge. This is also mentioned by Krishna to Arjuna in the Bhagavad-Gita -'do your activities with full knowledge'. This gyata sukrity or bhakti unmukhi sukrity is the most important kind of sukriti, for it moves one to meet a pure, saintly devotee. By associating with a devotee of Lord Vishnu or Krishna, one gradually develops taste for bhakti, namely he dedicates more and more time for the service of the Supreme Lord Narayana through chanting the holy name, praying, doing puja etc. and thus one's faith becomes firm. Those who are firmly engaged in glorifying Krishna with determination become very dear to Krishna. This is explained by Sri Krishna in the Bhagavad-Gita 7.17:
tesham jnani nitya-yukta eka-bhaktir visishyate
priyo hi jnanino 'tyartham aham sa ca mama priyah
One who is in full knowledge and who is always engaged in pure devotional service is the best. For I am very dear to him, and he is dear to Me.
The first two types of pious activities the karmonmukhi and mokshonmukhi sukritis are not really beneficial because performing them one cannot attain the highest goal - love of Krishna or bhakti. Krishna in the Bhagavad-gita say bhaktiya mam abhijanaty: 'I can be understood and attained only by the performance of bhakti or devotion'. Thus, naturally we can conclude that the real beneficial activity is the bhakti unmukhi sukriti that we can also call Krishna-karma or activity performed for the pleasure of Krishna. This Krishna karma is easily and joyfully performed in the association of pure saintly devotees of Vishnu, Rama or Krishna.
Citta Hari Dasa - June 2, 2014 11:31 pm
Doesn't Bhaktivinoda Thakura use it in his writings? I'm thinking Jaiva-dharma at least.
Bhrigu - June 3, 2014 11:56 am
Bhaktivinoda does write in the JD of nitya-sukriti arising from chance events (p. 411 of NM's edition), but he does not seem to use the term ajnata sukriti anywhere in the JD. This is the exact statement: "However, if an innocent person performs any of these activities (one of the limbs of pure bhakti), either unknowingly or out of habit, without desiring sense gratification or impersonal liberation, these activities lead to the accumulation of bhakti-prada-sukriti (good deeds leading to bhakti)."
Whether or not a cow, a tiny fraction of whose milk is offered to a pure devotee, is counted as engaging in service of that devotee, is of course Nava-yauvana's original question and one that seems to be difficult to answer conclusively.
Nava-yauvana Dasa - June 4, 2014 5:21 pm
Bhrigu, thank you for your answer and research;
it seems that sometimes "obovious and well knows truths" are not so obovious, at least not in this case
it`s very interesting that nobody can`t find the origin of this term in śastra; nobody can`t figure out who use it as the first person...
in my humble opinion there is a lot of misunderstanding according to it, for example that ajnata sukriti leads directly to bhakti - which is not logic and contrary to our siddhanta (because bhakti is a gift and it has nothing to do with our karma - pious activities) or that we can benefit others (cows) by our own activities related to bhakti and so on
I asked this question on FB too and this is the answer from GM - first definition of this term and then an example of it:
"Ajnata sukrti refers to unknowingly coming in contact with svarupa siddha bhakti and benefiting from it in terms of developing a samskara for bhakti"
from that it is clear for me that even a word "ajnata" (unknowingly) in this term is questionable; it quite like oxymoron how can you don`t know when you performing some kind of activity? but of course I agree that somebody could not know a meaning of this particular activity
and moreover this example tells us that the man who gave a pujari the ashes benefits not a tree burned to ashes!
I agree with Bhrigu - it is difficult to say conclusively what it is ajnata sukriti, what is an origin of this term and who exactly benefit.
Bhrigu - June 4, 2014 5:41 pm
Yes, the benefit accrued to the person who gave the ashes (even though they were given in anger, offensively), not to the tree. Bhaktivinoda speaks of "a person" in the above quote. However, there are shastric examples of animals accidentally coming in contact with svarupa siddha bhakti and being benefitted. Jiva Goswami gives the example of a rat who offered arati by burning up on the altar. So it is not inconceivable that the cow giving the milk would benefit by giving her life for the service of devotees.
Nava-yauvana Dasa - June 4, 2014 6:24 pm
Yes, I know that example of rat.
In general I`m not against the concept of benefiting an animal or a plant.
However in quote given by you Bhaktivinoda speaks about one particular condition of this kind of activity: "without desiring sense gratification or impersonal liberation". It seems that only a pure devotee can do it. I mean - it`s hard to believe that all of us have this attitude and offer to Krsna for example milk only for His pleasure. We offer milk because WE like it!
Braja-sundari Dasi - June 4, 2014 10:34 pm
. We offer milk because WE like it!
In case of devotees living in the temple it might not necessary be so. I`ve seen many instances where milk was offered because of standard of Deity worship in that temple but then it was given to animals because devotees were, for instance observing fast from milk for Caturmasya.
Bhrigu - June 6, 2014 4:38 am
Another example could be the madhuparka offered during ordinary 16-upacara puja, which contains both milk, yoghurt and ghee. It is an integral part of puja. It can of course (as everything else) be substituted by flowers or water, but personally I like to offer it to the Lord, not because I particularly like it, but because He does.
When Bhaktivinoda writes "without desiring sense gratification or impersonal liberation" he means without a selfish motivation (but In this case, also without the intention to worship Krishna). Cows are sacred (in part) for precisely this reason: their unselfish nature.