Tattva-viveka
installed vs non-installed deities
Shyam Gopal Das - September 17, 2004 1:39 pm
I am wondering about the following, and hope anybody of you would want to answer this: Friends of mine have had their deities installed and others have not. What is the difference between installed and non-installed deities? and what is the difference between serving installed vs non-installed deities?
thanks in advance and in service,
Shyam Gopal das
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - September 18, 2004 5:58 am
All I can say is that installation ceremony invites the Lord to descend and accept residence within the home or temple as the arca-vigraha, or form of the Lord to be worshiped. It's a very elaborate ritual. Yantras require prana-pratishta to be performed as well. Needless to say it has to be done by qualified professionals 
Until prana-pratishta is performed, its just an object. Once purified and awakened it's sanctified and ready to accept service.
Shyam Gopal Das - September 18, 2004 6:26 pm
thank you for your answer, Prabhu! Still one question remains: what is the benefit of worshipping a form before prana-pratishta?
Citta Hari Dasa - September 19, 2004 11:53 pm
Until prana-pratishta is performed, its just an object.
Is it? Here's some food for thought:
Guru Maharaja has told the story that during his book distribution days in Iskcon he asked Srila Prabhupada for permission to have Deities since he was travelling alot and could not worship in the temples on a regular basis. Prabhupada gave his sanction and Guru Maharaja arranged for a Godbrother to bring a set of Gaura-Nitai Deities from India. When he received them Guru Maharaja put some clothes on them and chanted japa before them. And they (in his words) 'reciprocated with' him, despite the fact that no installation had been performed yet. He did have an installation ceremony performed soon afterward in accordance with accepted Deity standards, but the will of the Vaisnava (Prabhupada in this case) and Guru Maharaja's sincerity were clearly more important than the prana-pratistha ceremony. No doubt Prabhupada wanted the Deities to be installed and worshipped according to the rules, but the ceremony is really just the formalization of what already exists internally, in the same way the the initiation ceremony is the formalization of the relationship that already exists between guru and disciple.
Swami - September 20, 2004 2:20 am
Note: The essence of the prana prathishta is the sanction of the acarya. Without this the ritual is lifeless. Just as chanting the holy name without the belssing of the acarya will not give prema, similarly seva puja/acrana without his belssing will not bring prema. There are of course self manifest deities like Saligrama and Govardhana silas. Still to effectively worship them we should have the belssing of Vaisnava.
In my case, Srila Prabhupada personally blessed me to worship the Deity of Gaura Nityananda, and Pujyapada Sridhara Deva Goswami personally blessed me to worship Govardhana sila.
Margaret Dale - September 5, 2005 3:23 pm
What would be the best thing for someone to do? I am certainly not ready for the responsibility of installed deities, but find that offering puja can help focus me for chanting. I live far from any temples. Would it be better to not offer puja at all?
Syamasundara - September 5, 2005 10:16 pm
Well welcome Margaret!
I was so glad to see that you joined today and that you already have questions.
Worship of a murti can be made in the mind, too. However, that is very difficult. As our Guru Maharaja says, discuss it with a sadhu, or a person of consequence as he says, and whatever he or she says will be good for you.
Myself, I used to make offerings in front of a Back to Godhead cover, and I must say I also got some reciprocation; minor, but encouraging nevertheless.
I remember once making a deep-fried potato, cauliflower and curd sabji, I offered it and when I tasted it I started to cry. It was so otherwordly good and I was overwhelmed by the kindness of bhakti, how simple it is to be engaged and saved.
Later on I did have deities: Radha-Vrndavanacandra. They chose the name, I just picked it out of a bowl of deity names. I always tried to be as instrumental as possible, trying not to say things like "my deities." I didn't have the blessings of anybody though, but at the time and in the environment I began there wasn't much stress on that: people would just buy deities at the temple's gift shop out of inspiration as they wanted to replicate the temple atmosphere in their homes, which overall is a nice feeling.
At one point I even installed them with abhisekha, homemade outfit, food offering and arati... it took me three days during my Christmas vacations from school (I must havebeen 17 or 18), mostly because of my incompetence and lack of help. Three days in which I barely slept, I would just take a few hours of rest to be able to carry out my "service". At the end I realized that Krsna was laughing at me and my endeavors, and maybe chuckling like a father who looks at his son learning to walk. I realized i probably wasn't meant or expected to do all that, but those three days were really blissful. Eating, sleeping or anything else was fading and relativized: I just cared for Radha-Vrndavancandra, Jagannatha Baladeva and Subhadra, and Gaura Nitai.
By spring time I remember waking up early before school, taking a shower (much to my parents' joy as they slept on the other side of the wall), putting on dhoti and tilaka, chanting some rounds while my mother was preparing breakfast. I would find the plate out of my room on a piece of furniture, make the offering, go on the balcony to pick flowers for the arati (the air smells wonderful at 6am during Spring, even in a city like Milan), and after the food offering I would offer incense and flowers, and finally take breakfast and smear my mother's wrist with lotus or jasmin oil offered to the deities. It was one of the most blissful periods of my life, again, experiencing the perfection of bhakti; I was being engaged, my mother was being engaged, the flowers would be engaged and purified, and so too the neighbor who would hear the sound of my little conch shell......
Krsna is very kind, he just needs to see a little step of ours in his direction.
I'd say that if physical worship helps you in your bhajana there is no harm in focusing your effort on a form of the Lord, whether a cover of a magazine or anything else. We should always have Krsna on our minds anyway and any effort in that direction won't go lost.
You can see it as studying medicine without going to the university: the bad news is that nobody will ever trust you, but the good news is that as soon as you decide to go to school you will pass all the exams very easily!
Anyway as you've joined this forum I understand you are in very very good, caring and capable hands, so don't worry about a thing.
I actually just wanted to welcome you, really.
Babhru Das - September 6, 2005 1:28 am
Welcome, Margaret! You've raised a really interesting question. How about some simple puja to a picture of the Lord? You could put it in a nice frame and have a picture of Srila Prabhupada, and/or a picture of Swami or whomever inspires the most faith in you. Being from Hawaii, I always suggest a picture of Gaura-Nitai or Sri Panca Tattva. When my wife was a girl in Catholic school, she read an article by Srila Prabhupada in a Back to Godhead magazine in which he suggested placing a picture of Panca Tattva in a special place, offering one's food to the picture, and chanting the Mahamantra in front of it. She followed his advice, and before the end of her first semester of college she had enough faith to become a disciple. So you might put up a picture, make a couple of regular offerings each day, as well as a simple arati if you like, and chant japa and kirtan there each day.
Situations may be different for different devotees, as may be their own inclinations. As Swami wrote in a post earlier on this thread, the acharya's sanction is the essential principle. Since you have just visited Audarya and very likely have established a relationship with Swami, I would like to see his advice in this matter.
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - September 6, 2005 1:43 am
How about some simple puja to a picture of the Lord?
Margaret, I have a nice picture of Audarya’s altar, I can send it to you if you wish. And welcome to the Tattva-viveka!
Babhru Das - September 6, 2005 1:48 am
Bhrigu - September 6, 2005 6:40 am
Welcome Margaret!
Vrindaranya asked me to write a small booklet called "Arcana for beginners", which you might find of some use. It is meant for persons in our group that haven't yet received second initiation, and it contains instructions for how to offer bhoga, care for Tulasi, offer puja to a picture of the Lord (generally, Guru Maharaja doesn't recommend actual Sri-Murtis for uninitiated devotees) and similar things. Perhaps Gauravani or someone else at Audarya could upload the file here on Tattvaviveka (I don't think I know how)?
Gauravani Dasa - September 6, 2005 11:06 am
The Arcana manual has been posted on the following page along with some other downloads of interest:
I am in the process of making the Audarya Seva song book a little better so that will be updated soon.
Margaret Dale - September 7, 2005 4:36 am
Thank you all so much for your advice.
I already have an altar, with a picture of Prabhupada and BalaramKrishna, where I offer puja and food. I just got concerned that maybe I was making some offense!
I do have a question for the learned - what is the appropriate prayer to BalaramaKrishna when offering food?
I like the picture of Maharaja that's on Audarya's altar. Could I get a copy of that for my altar?
Madangopal - September 7, 2005 5:26 am
Bhrigu - September 7, 2005 9:45 am
what is the appropriate prayer to BalaramaKrishna when offering food?
You can use any verse glorifying them. Here is a nice one (Bhagavatam 10.38.32):
pradhaana-purushaav aadyau jagad-dhetuu jagat-patii
avatiirnau jagaty-arthe svaamshena bala-keshavau
"Balarama and Keshava are the primeval Lords, the twin causes and masters of the universe. For the welfare of the world, they have descended in their own form."
Any other nice Krishna-Balarama verses? Syamasundara?
Syamasundara - September 7, 2005 9:57 am
Wow I feel so flattered to be called for matters related to Krsna and Balarama; it feels a bit when people would ask me of all people where Citta Hari was (when we were more than 3 of course).
Well, I am very rusted as far slokas by heart.
Would it be cheating if I said:
vande sri krsna-caitanya nityanandau sahoditau
gaurodaye puspavantau citrau-sandau tamo-nudau?
Bhrigu - September 7, 2005 2:28 pm
Yes, that's cheating! 
Babhru Das - September 7, 2005 8:28 pm
Here's a nice one from Chapter 19 of the 10th canto:
gah sannivartya sayahne
saha-ramo janardanah
venum viranayan gostham
agad gopair abhistutah
It was now late in the afternoon, and Lord Krsna, accompanied by Balarama, turned the cows back toward home. Playing His flute in a special way, Krsna returned to the cowherd village in the company of His cowherd friends, who chanted His glories.
Babhru Das - September 7, 2005 8:59 pm
Or maybe this, from the Purva-tapani of Gopala-tapani Upanishad:
barhapidabhiramaya ramayakuntha-medhase
rama-manasa-hamsaya govindaya namo namah
I bow down repeatedly to Govinda, [who is also known as] Rama. He is adorned with a crown of peacock feathers; his intelligence is unrestricted. He is like a swan in the pool of the Goddess of Fortune's, Rama's, mind.
Swami explains that the "name Rama in this verse directly refers to Balarama, but it is also indirectly used as an epithet of Krishna. . . ."
Babhru Das - September 7, 2005 9:04 pm
Or perhaps this one, spoken by the gopis of Vrindavan, from the Venu-gita in the 10th canto:
aksanvatam phalam idam na param vidamah
sakhyah pasun anuvivesayator vayasyaih
vaktram vrajesa-sutayor anavenu-justam
yair va nipitam anurakta-kataksa-moksam
O friends, those eyes that see the beautiful faces of the sons of Maharaja Nanda are certainly fortunate. As these two sons enter the forest, surrounded by Their friends, driving the cows before Them, They hold Their flutes to Their mouths and glance lovingly upon the residents of Vrndavana. For those who have eyes, we think there is no greater object of vision.
Syamasundara - September 7, 2005 9:34 pm
I like this one, and who can disagree with the gopis.
Margaret Dale - September 8, 2005 4:14 am
I like this one too! Thanks for everyone's research and suggestions.
Does anyone have a good way to figure out the proper rhythm for pronouncing this?
Margaret Dale - September 8, 2005 5:22 am
I've got a silly question for you guys, since you've been so helpful.
What is the proper thing to do with prasadam in the form of flowers, leaves, etc, after having enjoyed it? I don't feel right about throwing it in the garbage because prasadam is non different from Krsna, but I also don't know what to do with the accumulation of dried flowers and leaves.
Thanks.
Syamasundara - September 8, 2005 6:11 am
First of all, Suta Goswami reassures us in the Bhagavatam that no question about the Absolute is silly, rather the key and the answer, the beginning of the end of our material predicament, or if you want, the beginning of our spiritual emancipation.
Second, you don't want to use "enjoy" around the devotees, unless you are speaking of Krsna, or unless you want to be lectured like this every time 
Prasadam is to be honored, because as you say it is non-different from Krsna. As such, it is always pure. What gets contaminated is your consciousness if you do something apparently contradictory as putting the most sacred object together with your garbage.
The remedy is a) some good basis of sambandha-jnana, or knowledge of what is what (keep asking questions!), and b ) try to have some other living being benefit from Krsna's mercy; you can make a small prasadam compost pile or just let any flower prasadam decomposes at the feet of some tree, that's how they eat after all.
To some small measure you can even dry flowers, put them in a book, make a composition and frame it... just ideas.
In general, if worse comes to worse, you can always "donate" the prasadam to some pure element, like fire, or water (a river) or earth (bury it).
When we moved out of Eugene we had a xillion devotional books in the bookroom: in bad state, doubles, we had sold all we could sell or give away, but in the end we had to make a pit and burn them.
Guru Maharaja came back from a car trip and he was in visible shock. Citta hari and I tried to explain it was our last resort, and he was smiling in disbelief and kept repeating "You're burning the books...?" A tough moment for the incarnation of book distribution.
So I guess the lesson is have good care of your books so you can always give them to someone, or go digital or something
Bhrigu - September 8, 2005 6:27 am
Contrary to the practice in ISKCON, Vaishnavas will generally not burn holy items but bury them or place them in a river. It's the same as with a pure devotee's physical body (sadhaka deha); since it has become spiritualised, it will not be burned but buried. As far as I know, the only exeption to this is the body of Tulasidevi, which may be burned in a sacred fire.
This is a good question and something that should have been included in the text! Any other omissions?
Krsangi Dasi - September 8, 2005 7:00 am
Thanks for posting the Arcana for Beginners file and all this additional information! Some questions came to my mind when I was reading it, so I'm hoping that Bhrigu (or someone else) can answer them here and/or make a version 2.0.
And I'm sorry if this sounds like nitpicking, but I want to make sure I've understood all this correctly. Those here who like the Moomin books know the Hemulen - that's me.
About cleanliness:
Upon waking up in the morning, cleanse yourself internally by chanting the Lord’s names or by offering him prayers.
How and where should this be done? Did I understand correctly that this should be done before the shower? Can we do this in front of the altar before showering, or do you mean that it's to be done in bed directly after waking up? Which names of the Lord or mantras can be used?
Bathe at least once daily, in the morning.
How would you define bathing? Do you have to take a shower, or can properly washing your hands and face be considered bathing if you're in a hurry or have very sensitive skin that gets irritated by daily showers? I've also heard about mantras that you can say instead of bathing, does someone know something about them?
Preferably, use washed and fresh Vaishnava clothing; if not, clean secular clothes.
Do you mean that also secular clothes should be washed after every use?
About Acamana:
Repeat the process two more times, then take the spoon inyour right hand and pour some water on the left hand as well.
Do you mean that the water's just poured on the left hand, or do you also take a sip from it?
Igor - September 8, 2005 8:53 am
Welcome Margaret!
And good question! Here we also have simple, simple altar –- beautiful picture of Audarya altar. That bring Audarya at my home ! My wife and myself are engaging in some small worshiping – my meditation is that whatever service is done – cooking for example is meant for Gurudeva and His beloved Deities in Audarya. We made real feast for them for Balarama’s birthday and Janmastami We brought nice serving plates for them and everyday offer them some nice preparations. And we practically see that there are changes in our life and some inner satisfaction is here, some seva is here. some connection. After all, they are most merciful and most auspicious Deities! Audarya Deities ki jay!
About offering - My meditation is similar. When I am offering preparations there is off course recitation of mantras, but inner I am always meditating that Krsna, Balarama and all friends are sitting on the field, resting and that I am offering some nice preparations to Gurudeva and by his mercy to them all.
One suggestion for download page- It will be nice to place picture of Audarya Deities on download page so that devotees all over the world could download it and made their home part of Audarya!
Sri Sri Guru Gauranga jayatah!
Bhrigu - September 8, 2005 9:21 am
No problem, Hemulen!
1. Immediately after waking, you can immediately say "Hare Krishna!" or some other Holy Names. Just use your favourite Names. Remember, there is no restriction re. time or place for when to chant the Lord's holy names. You know the verse, Krishangi! You can also chant verses describing the Lord(s), like the Krishna-Balarama verses quoted here earlier.
2. Generally, bathing would mean shower (unless you happen to have a pond in your backyard!). There can always be exceptions and alternative ways of doing things that can be figured out with Guru Maharaja.
The mantras for the "mantra-bath" are Vedic and should therefore not be used by non-second initiated or those who don't know how to pronounce them (I don't know those mantras myself).
3. Preferably, but how practical would that be? That's why it is probably easier to have separate Vaishnava clothes that you use when doing puja and such stuff. But better not to be too strict about such stuff at this point. By "clean secular clothes" I just meant that they aren't soiled, sweaty, etc.
4. No, you don't sip water from the left hand, you just pour a spoonful on it and then discard it.
Gauravani Dasa - September 8, 2005 10:33 am
I agree. There have also been some wonderful photos of Guru Maharaja taken during the Finvasion and the Ratha-yatra. It would be nice to start an online photo collection.
The web site will be redesigned some time in the future and these ideas will probably be incorporated into it.
In the meantime, I have a few pictures of Gaura-Nitai and I would like to see others. Could you email yours to me? gvanid@gmail.com
Nanda-tanuja Dasa - September 8, 2005 2:03 pm
I have a few pictures of Gaura-Nitai and I would like to see others. Could you email yours to me?
During last Govardhana puja I took a lot of good pictures and gave Vrindaranya several CDs with very high resolution TIF files. Please ask her. I cannot email them to you because each file is about 18 MB.
Bhrigu - September 8, 2005 6:24 pm
Nandatanuja asked me to record the mantras connected with Tulasi-devi, so here they are. I hope the attachment works.
Bhrigu - September 8, 2005 6:27 pm
And then the Krishna-Balarama mantra. Actually, Vrindaranya has asked me to compile some kind of Sanskrit pronounciation guide. I'll try to get around to doing that as soon as possible. I'll add some notes about metre as well.
Babhru Das - September 8, 2005 6:29 pm
Wonderful! All glories to the miracles of modern technology!
Could you do the same with the Venu-gita verse for Margaret?
Bhrigu - September 8, 2005 6:47 pm
Could you do the same with the Venu-gita verse for Margaret
I did already! 
Babhru Das - September 8, 2005 7:13 pm
Cool! You must have been uploading that as I typed my request. Thanks, Bhrigu!
Margaret Dale - September 8, 2005 8:22 pm
You guys are awesome. Here's a big hug for all my godbrothers and godsisters. OOOOOOO
Syamasundara - September 9, 2005 12:42 am
I am a merciless and natural faultfinder. I don't invent faults, but I am very good at finding them, so Guru Maharaja engages me in proof reading (despite my punctuation when I write here) and told me once to glorify the Vaisnavas as soon as I see an occasion.
I was afraid to listen to the audiofiles but I am pleased to have found a Westerner who can pronounce Sanskrit flawlessly and accurately. I was thrilled to hear the enunciation of the visarga and of "ai". I am sure you can even pronounce jña.
We'll have some nice talks next time we meet (I'll have you say "Prataparudra" ). I was hoping to make it to Finland for New Year's, but that is in the middle of the Christmas high season and I may not be able to afford the flight, especially since I just quit my job in Ireland and don't know how soon I'll find one in Madrid.
And since I've gone miscellaneous, I would like to express my gratitude for all the Tattva-vivekis. It really feels like entering a common secret room in some other dimension where we all meet, leave relativeness behind (time zone, continent, material predicament) and inspire one another to glorify the Absolute in so many ways. It's like a big gayatri! Being stranded on this grey island with no association made me appreciate the value of TV much more. I'll let you know what the sanga is like in Spain. Does anyone know "whose zone" that is? last I checked it was Giriraja maharaja's.