I'm starting a new discussion here, beginning where my wife and I are at in Gopala-tapani Upanisad. As someone said, "It does not matter at what point one enters the river, the point is to enter the river." Incidentally the previous verse and commentary brought up the Yamuna river.
Text 1.14, second paragraph of the commentary. Guru Maharaja writes:
"Rupa Goswami says further, anukulyena krishnanusilanam: “The primary symptom of pure devotion is the ongoing culture of Krishna consciousness (krishnanusilanam) that is exercised in a manner favorable (anukulyena) to him.” Brahma speaks of bhakti’s primary symptom when he says that it involves absorbing one’s mind in Krishna. Absorbing one’s mind in Krishna implies that one must identify with his will and act in accordance with it. Both action and emotion are involved. Sanskrit verbal roots imply both of these as well, and thus the word anusilanam indicates the culture of external practices (sadhana-bhakti) and the spiritual emotions they awaken (bhava-bhakti). Practice leads to spiritual emotion—the flowering stage of love—which in turn matures into the full fruit of love of God (prema-bhakti), the final stage of suddha-bhakti."
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The verse from Srila Rupa Goswami that Guru Maharaja is quoting from here is 1.1.11 of Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, a foundational verse for our sampradaya and the seed of the whole of that book (BRS):
anyabhilasita-sunyam jnana-karmadyanavrtam
anukulyena krsnanusilanam bhaktir-uttama
Translation by H.H. Bhanu Swami: "The highest bhakti is defined as continuous service or emotions directed towards Krsna, His expansion forms or others related to Him, with a pleasing attitude towards Krsna. It should be devoid of desires other than the desire to please the Lord, and unobstructed by impersonal jnana, the materialistic rituals of karma or other unfavorable acts."
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Srila Jiva Goswami very minutely explains the importance of each word in the verse and how they together make sure that pure bhakti is neither too strictly nor too loosely defined. Does everyone have the pdf of the commentary? Otherwise let me know.
Point for discussion (and you can suggest others as well): What place is there for emotions in sadhana-bhakti if sadhana-bhakti is about external practices and spiritual emotions belong to bhava-bhakti?
First thought that comes to mind is that when Guru Maharaja is typically asked about emotion or prayer within sadhana-bhakti, he makes the point that it is there and consists of developing a sense of surrender or saranagati. This is in contrast to bhava-bhakti where the emotion is steeped in longing. So while it differs, emotion is obviously present within both stages of bhakti.
I also distinctly remember Guru Maharaja discussing effort within raganuga-sadhana-bhakti and making the point that this effort--an effort to attract grace--needs to come from the heart [our chanting should be of that nature]. That obviously implies the presence of some emotive component, otherwise it could simply be an exercise of the mouth and mind. I have often wondered how to best develop that, though I have some ideas [proper sambandha should give rise to humility and surrender, with deeper emotions to naturally develop from there, both of which can be nurtured via sastra and relevant bhajans].
Eager to hear others thoughts on this.
As for BRS translation and commentary, I have a 107-page PDF of unknown origin and a PDF of Bon Maharaja's commentary. Would appreciate whatever you have if it's different from either of those.
1 hour ago, Shyamananda das said:I'm starting a new discussion here, beginning where my wife and I are at in Gopala-tapani Upanisad. As someone said, "It does not matter at what point one enters the river, the point is to enter the river." Incidentally the previous verse and commentary brought up the Yamuna river.
THANK YOU SHYAMANANDA for coming back and diving right in and pulling me into discussion!
I think I heard something from Guru Maharaja about emotions recently; maybe it was in an early lecture maybe, as I am listening to some of those.
Surely emotions have some place, as we cannot discount our psychological makeup, being creatures that happen to have a body and mind and all that goes along with that. However, there is the role of the spiritual preceptor(s) and sadhu sanga: with their aid we can test these emotions. They may be bonafide, or conversely they may be like the 'blue light' a devotee related to Srila Prabhupada; the reply, pithily so, was "chant Hare Krsna, and it will go away!"
Vamsidas, I think you're right to draw the distinction between the two. And I especially like your point about without the emotive content, it would just be a semblance of bhakti, an exercise. We have to take the wholesome approach: test our emotions, and where they are favourable to krsna-bhakti, harness them! Reminds me of Harinama-cintamani.
On 11/21/2018 at 11:55 AM, Vamsidas said:As for BRS translation and commentary, I have a 107-page PDF of unknown origin and a PDF of Bon Maharaja's commentary. Would appreciate whatever you have if it's different from either of those.
Here ya go bro!
15 hours ago, Madan Gopal das said:Here ya go bro!
Definitely don't have this copy already. Thanks!
On 11/21/2018 at 10:42 AM, Shyamananda das said:As someone said, "It does not matter at what point one enters the river, the point is to enter the river."
Point for discussion (and you can suggest others as well): What place is there for emotions in sadhana-bhakti if sadhana-bhakti is about external practices and spiritual emotions belong to bhava-bhakti?
I also like the Prabhupada saying about how you can open a book to any page. It's like a sweet ball, it's gonna be sweet wherever you bite it.
I am thinking in simple terms to start with in relation to emotions in sadhana-bhakti. We feel happy to see the devotees at the festival, we feel sad to leave the devotees, we are pleased to eat prasadam, we feel grateful for good association, we feel disappointed about our lack of interest, etc. In addition, we may long for comfort and fear discomfort. This may not be what you're talking about, but I think there is some value in getting in touch with how we feel and it can help us understand where we're at on the path.
As for spiritual emotions in sadhana-bhakti, I think a taste of spiritual emotion may start to happen at the stage of ruci. According to Jiva Goswami, external practices also include the mind in addition to the body and words. I guess we could look at the mind as being internal in a material sense, but external in a spiritual sense. GM's comments refer to "absorbing one's mind in Krishna." I think we could see nistha as a stage in which one's mind is pretty fixed on Krishna. GM also states, "Practice leads to spiritual emotion ...".
Before I get too off topic, I'd like to propose one possible way to look at emotion in sadhana-bhakti. There are several stages within sadhana-bhakti, so I think the manifestation of emotions will be different as things progress. At the stage of initial faith, one may have emotions of wonder, astonishment, gratitude, enthusiasm, and pride, among others. As one progresses to unsteady practice, I think you will see more ups and downs, happiness in devotional service, and disappointment as well. I think the material emotions will level out pretty well in nistha, with some equanimity and such, paving the way for a little tiny bit of spiritual emotion to poke through at ruci. After that, when a pretty clear idea of the siddhadeha comes into play at asakti, this longing that Vamsi was referring to probably starts to ramp up a bit until it shifts into bhava.
This is me just throwing some stuff out there. All in all, I think emotions are important at every part of the way. Initial enthusiasm has it's place, the ups and downs serve their function, and equanimity without ruci brings about a longing for taste. An unsteady bhakta longs to be steady, a steady bhakta longs for taste, and once there is a spiritual taste, the longing continues. Gauranga!
Siksastakam may also be a good reference for emotions in sadhana-bhakti. In verse one, Mahaprabhu expresses adbhuta (amazement and wonder) at the power of Krishna nama and in verse two Mahaprabhu expresses lamentation and humility (dainya) because he has no attraction for the name. I think I have heard Guru Maharaja state that we should cultivate humility in the face of the power of nama compared with our inability to take full advantage of it. And we should cry if we cannot even muster this humility. Understanding the significance and nama, of course, requires an understanding of the tattva from someone who has real spiritual emotions.
On 11/23/2018 at 6:37 PM, Vamsidas said:Definitely don't have this copy already. Thanks!
Looks the style of a Bhanu Maharaja translation?
Aropa-siddha bhakti involves offering good or bad karmic activities/emotions to Bhagavan with a desire to increase one’s bhakti. Disease caused by eating an excessive amount of ghee can be cured by eating ghee combined with other ingredients in the form of medicine. This is the idea. Here karma refers to all acts arising from one’s psycho-biological identity, not only scripturally prescribed action. Thus even bodily functions and acts of hygiene offered with a view to please Bhagavan constitute aropa siddha bhakti. Furthermore, even material desires/emotions and tendencies can be offered. For example in aropa siddha bhakti one prays. “Just as young boys are spontaneously attracted to young girls, may my mind be attracted to Krsna.” So all otherwise material karmic acts and emotion performed form and employed with the pleasure of Bhagavan in mind are considered aropa siddha bhakti. Aropa means to "assign."
Bhavabhasa is an example of spiritual emotions appearing within sadhana bhakti.
On 12/6/2018 at 11:56 AM, Swami said:Aropa-siddha bhakti involves offering good or bad karmic activities/emotions to Bhagavan with a desire to increase one’s bhakti. Disease caused by eating an excessive amount of ghee can be cured by eating ghee combined with other ingredients in the form of medicine. This is the idea. Here karma refers to all acts arising from one’s psycho-biological identity, not only scripturally prescribed action. Thus even bodily functions and acts of hygiene offered with a view to please Bhagavan constitute aropa siddha bhakti. Furthermore, even material desires/emotions and tendencies can be offered. For example in aropa siddha bhakti one prays. “Just as young boys are spontaneously attracted to young girls, may my mind be attracted to Krsna.” So all otherwise material karmic acts and emotion performed form and employed with the pleasure of Bhagavan in mind are considered aropa siddha bhakti. Aropa means to "assign."
Bhavabhasa is an example of spiritual emotions appearing within sadhana bhakti.
Is aropa-siddha bhakti similar to the attitude put forward in Bg. 9.27, "yat karosi yad asnasi ..."?
In what ways does bhavabhasa appear within sadhana bhakti?
Yes, Bg 9.27 speaks of aropa siddha bhakti.
Because of the slight attraction to Bhagavan, there will be slight symptoms at times similar to those of real rati. However, because of its nature as a mere shadow or real bhava, it is unsteady (cancala). It can sometimes appear even in ignorant people by performing combined actions dear to the Bhagavan, such as, observing the festivals, residing in the dhama, and associating with the devotees all at once. See Brs. 1.3.49-51.
23 hours ago, Swami said:See Brs. 1.3.49-51.
In Brs. 1.3.52-53, this is stated:
hari-priya-janasyaiva prasäda-bhara-läbhataù |
bhäväbhäso ’pi sahasä bhävatvam upagacchati ||52||
tasminn eväparädhena bhäväbhäso ’py anuttamaù |
krameëa kñayam äpnoti kha-sthaù pürëa-çaçé yathä ||53||
Translation: By the great mercy of a dear devotee of the Lord,
the semblance of bhäva suddenly becomes real bhäva. By offending
that devotee, even the best bhäväbhäsa gradually wanes
just as the full moon in the sky gradually wanes.
Is this referring to the chaya-raty-abhasa mentioned in verses 49-51 or something different?
Yes.