Tattva-viveka
Upadesamrta
Madan Gopal Das - November 21, 2018 5:30 pm
Along the lines of Shyamanada’s “just get in the river” - I’m going to throw you into my recent reading of Srila Sridhar Maharaj’s commentary on Upadesamrta. Speaking of rivers - any faults in the body of a devotee should be viewed like foam/mud in the Ganga; these things don’t contaminate the pure water flowing through. 😉
Shyamananda Das - November 21, 2018 5:46 pm
Got inspired to take a look at CC Antya 4...
CC Antya 4.195 — “Kṛṣṇa somehow or other manifested these itching sores on the body of Sanātana Gosvāmī and sent him here to test Me.
Krsangi Dasi - November 22, 2018 8:15 am
Thank you so much Madan Gopal for bringing Tattva-viveka back to life! I’m still on Facebook but have grown very tired of it and have been hoping there would be another way to stay in touch with devotees. You’ve made my wish come true and that makes me very happy! 😊
Ramakesava - November 22, 2018 6:02 pm
I have many books of Sridhara Maharaja in PDF format, but sadly not Upadesamrta. It is now very difficult to get these in print format.
Does anyone have Upadesamrta in PDF format?
Shyamananda Das - November 22, 2018 6:21 pm
Madan Gopal Das - November 22, 2018 7:47 pm
Okay - here we go!!
On 11/21/2018 at 12:46 PM, Shyamananda das said:Got inspired to take a look at CC Antya 4...
CC Antya 4.195 — “Kṛṣṇa somehow or other manifested these itching sores on the body of Sanātana Gosvāmī and sent him here to test Me.
Nice reference Shyamananda - one that SSM also makes in his commentary on this verse: (pardon the formatting errors)
“Whatever may be externally seen in the character of a Vaisnava is like the mud, bubbles and foam found in Ganges water. The purifying capacity of Ganges water is separate and cannot be disturbed by any foam or dirt mixed with it. The spiritual capacity does not depend in any way on the apparent material capacity.
Once Sanåtana Gosvåmî contracted sores all over his body due to drinking bad water in the jungle, when he was returning from V®ndåvana to Purî. Mahåprabhu used to welcome him by embracing him, but Sanåtana would try to withdraw. Sanåtana objected, “Don’t touch me! This is the body of a sinful man.” The sores were oozing and emitting a bad odor, but Mahåprabhu embraced him forcibly. Sanåtana had decided, “I shall either leave this place or I shall invite death by falling under the wheel of the cart of Lord Jagannåtha.” But as the Lord in the heart of all, Mahåprabhu knew Sanåtana’s mind. He chastised him and embraced him forcibly. All the sores disappeared, and Sanåtana’s body immediately became like gold.
Mahåprabhu said, “Sanåtana Gosvåmî is a devotee of a pure type. I see that there are some sores on his body oozing pus. I see that with My eyes. But due to My sastrika knowledge I will show no disgust. The body of a devotee is sac-cid-ånanda. If I think it is mundane, then this shall be offensive to K®ß√a.”
gh®√å kari åli∫gana nå karittåma yabe k®ß√a-†håñi aparådha da√∂a påitåma tabe
If I had been repulsed and refused to embrace Sanåtana, then I would have been punished for offending Çrî K®ß√a. (Cc. Antya. 4.196)
Madan Gopal Das - November 23, 2018 2:42 am
SSM brings a couple anecdotes from Gaudiya Matha that add some real sweetness to his comments on the verse:
“In the time of our Guru Mahåråja there was a system in our matha. Guru Mahåråja ordered one Vaisnava to please another Vaisnava, especially one that he does not like. That means he was forced to find the goodness in that devotee whom he didn’t like. He should try to find good things in him. Eliminating the bad things in his conception of that devotee, he will search for anything that is good there and thereby he will be benefited. No culture of any bad thing anywhere – especially with the devotees because Krsna has taken charge of those surrendered souls. What is good and bad is His responsibility. Those evil things in the devotee may disappear at any time, or Krsna will allow that to continue in order to serve some purpose. Such devotees are under Krsna’s direct charge. They are ananya-bhåk (fixed in devotion).”
SSM also expands the idea of not finding defect in the body of a pure devotee to include a general instruction to avoid fault finding in any vaisnava. He instructs that from his experience that he has seen that the fault we find in others tends to manifest in ourselves.
Gauravani Dasa - November 25, 2018 2:34 pm
Do these ideas only apply to Vaisnavas or do they apply at all to non-devotees as well?
Krsna Caitanya Das - November 25, 2018 2:37 pm
I like the way "ananya-bhak" rolls off the tongue. It feels good to say.
Bg 9.30 — "Even if one commits the most abominable action, if he is engaged in devotional service he is to be considered saintly because he is properly situated in his determination."
Madan Gopal Das - November 25, 2018 2:54 pm
I’m traveling right now so will get back to this tomorrow, but SSM relays a dream of BVT enlightening the deva’s about the correct understanding of Gita 9.30... really nice.
Krsna Caitanya Das - November 26, 2018 11:32 am
This part of the illumination of verse 6 stuck out to me:
" a Vaishnava may sometimes be
seen to be a little greedy, a little angry; or physically he may be
blind or deaf or lame – but the saintly character of the Vaishnava
is independent of his mental or physical characteristics. Such
qualities do not affect his status in the Vaishnava world. If we
attribute those faults to his inner self then we are the losers – we
commit offense."
Sometimes it may feel kind of easy to dismiss a devotee who is a little mean or appears to have some external character flaw. But we really don't know what's going on inside that person. They may be mean, but still have a good bit more love for Krishna than we do, even though we might seem nice. To disparaged that devotee would be a miscalculation in which we would end up the loser. Or we may just misinterpret their external behavior. Was is Citraketu who laughed at Lord Siva letting his wife sit on his lap while he was giving class to the sages? He didn't mean any disrespect. He knew there wasn't anything wrong going on. He just thought it was funny. He probably thought it was awesome. This is a good advertisement for giving someone the benefit of the doubt. If you don't know what their motivation is, you can assume the best one that comes to your mind.
Vamsidas - November 26, 2018 2:27 pm
23 hours ago, Gauravani dasa said:Do these ideas only apply to Vaisnavas or do they apply at all to non-devotees as well?
I assume that you're asking if this applies to Vaisnavas in relation to Vaisnavas and non-Vaisnavas alike? The answer clearly appears to be, "yes." Pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja makes the statement in his illumination on verse 6 just above the anecdote that Madan quoted:
"If you try to find fault with anyone, if you criticize for your personal interest, that fault will come to you – especially when that is in the devotee section."
That he has singled out "the devotee section" specifically for additional concern implies that care should be taken to avoid finding fault in all living entities.
Vamsidas - November 26, 2018 2:54 pm
2 hours ago, krsna caitanya das said:Sometimes it may feel kind of easy to dismiss a devotee who is a little mean or appears to have some external character flaw. But we really don't know what's going on inside that person. They may be mean, but still have a good bit more love for Krishna than we do, even though we might seem nice. To disparaged that devotee would be a miscalculation in which we would end up the loser. Or we may just misinterpret their external behavior. Was is Citraketu who laughed at Lord Siva letting his wife sit on his lap while he was giving class to the sages? He didn't mean any disrespect. He knew there wasn't anything wrong going on. He just thought it was funny. He probably thought it was awesome. This is a good advertisement for giving someone the benefit of the doubt. If you don't know what their motivation is, you can assume the best one that comes to your mind.
I brought this up when you and I were discussing some characteristics of nistha, as Visvanatha Chakravarti Thakura and Ananta das Panditji make the point at the end of the fourth shower in Madhurya kadambini that the presence of some character flaw shouldn't be taken to be disqualification of a devotee's advancement (at least to this stage), :
"...not desiring respect, respectfulness, friendliness, mercifulness, forgiveness, gratefulness, patience, and so on...these attributes are also seen in self-controlled devotees who are not yet stable in devotion...Again, even if nistha has already arisen, if the devotee is very arrogant these attributes are not found in him. Therefore it is not sure that auspicious qualities arise in all persons who develop nistha."
This point is being raised just to clarify that it's the steady fixation in bhakti that indicates nistha rather than simply the appearance of good qualities, but it's relevant to our current tangent as we'd be wise to avoid offending such a devotee thinking that they were somehow at a "lower" stage of development [not that that would be a wise decision either].
And yes, it is Citraketu that you're thinking of. Interestingly, earlier in his MK commentary Panditji makes the point that the incident you cited actually isn't to be considered aparadha b/c bhakti never left him.
Krsna Caitanya Das - November 26, 2018 5:17 pm
2 hours ago, Vamsidas said:And yes, it is Citraketu that you're thinking of. Interestingly, earlier in his MK commentary Panditji makes the point that the incident you cited actually isn't to be considered aparadha b/c bhakti never left him.
Yeah, in this altercation, Parvati thought Citraketu was offending her husband by laughing at him. She curses Citraketu and then he humbly accepts her curse. At this point, Parvati is the one who now realizes she may not have fully realized the true nature of Citraketu. Although I didn't mention her, I was thinking of Parvati as the one that jumped to a conclusion. It seems like at the end of of this event, Lord Siva, Parvati, the assembled sages, and Citraketu, all kind of marveled at what had just happened and took it as providence. No one hurled blame or maintained hard feelings. I think that's pretty cool.
Madan Gopal Das - November 27, 2018 1:27 am
^ great points, and thanks for following the points through different texts and bringing out more of the teaching... oh how I love the meandering thoughts of the devotees. so much nectar they find!
Madan Gopal Das - November 27, 2018 1:47 am
So... SSM relays a dream of BVT where he was “chanting in the sky” and came upon the deva’s at Yamaraj’s court discussing:
api cet suduråcåro bhajate måm ananya-bhåk sådhur eva sa mantavya ̇ samyag vyavasito hi sa ̇
Even if the most sinful person worships Me with one-pointed devotion, such a person should be considered to be saintly because his determination is perfect. (Gîtå 9.30)
The deva’s question - If a person is practicing ananya bhajana (undeviated/fixed/focused), which is above mere religiosity, why would Krsna say in the next verse that such a person will become dharmatma, “quickly become righteous” and “attain lasting peace” when religiousity/dharma is inferior to such ananya bhajana? Wouldn’t the devotee be falling down to a lower platform by becoming religious? 🙄 “Oh! There is Bhaktivinoda (chanting in the sky)! Surely he can tell us how to understand this.” 😀
Thakur Bhaktivinoda then enlightens the deva’s that 9.31 refers to the person who may be judging the devotee - THAT person will become religious/peaceful, by neglecting to critique the behavior of someone who is situated on the path of ananya bhajana.
Atmananda Dasa - November 27, 2018 8:14 pm
sarvadhamesv api mukti-datrtvam -
sarvacara-vivarjitah satha-dhiyo vratya jagad-vancaka dambhahankrti-pana-paisuna-parah papantyaja nisthurah ye canye dhana-dara-putra-niratah sarvadhamas te 'pi hi sri-govinda-padaravinda-sarana mukta bhavanti dvija
Nrsimha Purana
Even the lowest of men are liberated by surrender -
"O twice-born, persons who are devoid of all virtuous practices,
who are outcast, rogues, deceitful, audacious, egotistic, addicted to intoxicants, hotbeds of sin, malicious, cruel-natured, grossly infatuated with son, wife, wealth, etc. - even such extremely fallen persons are liberated by surrendering unto the lotus feet of Sri Govinda."
This verse is from Nrsimha Purana
Brahma Samhita Das - December 4, 2018 12:16 pm
wow! nectar!
thanks dear devotees for this nice discussion
some reflections:
we keep tolerating the ignorant misbehavior of children, inspired by the sweetness of their natural innocence.
yet since that innocence is based on our ignorance, it just appears to be a sweet reality, but is actually not, like a reflection in the mirror of our selfishness.
And so we let the kids play as much as possible, deriving inspiration for our sacrifice from that image of kids play, our own playful nature.
The human experience seem to be a lifelong trial and streangthening of that innocence, starting from being a innocent taker ( like an infant, whose only concern is personal wants, yet is considered sweet by everyone) towards the ideal of pure giving. To become an innocent giver ( a saint that see the sweetness within everyone.)
I remember the magic spell of my childhood where often broken by the reality world of "Grownups" talks of responsability and other boring stuff.
but more often we managed to brake the magic our selves, while clashing with each other who is going to be the hero.
even the "innocent" Conditioned souls are locked up in the reactions of their own crime of taking and their liberation comes with the realization of their non-criminal nature, seen in the light of wisdom.
in whose light we loose interest in our own vanity mirroríng, owing to the greater beauty of the complete picture and inspire our own small contribution.
leading up to un-conditional love, where there are no more conditionings...
And so for an utama bhakta, we hear, there is no matter...
unless we grow up in a devotional environment, nourished by the upadesha amrita ( nectarian instruction) of a true Sadhu, whose childlike innocence have attained immortality by drinking from that same nectar of wisdom.
I heard a talk of Gurumaharaj ( Srila Tripurari Maharaj) the other day when he said something like:
"We often think of the Guru as a serios authoritative figure, but he /she can be more like a child in the candy shop when reflecting on shastric revelation"
the following is Srila Vishwanath C T´s text measuring greatness of the scale of faultfinding.
seems like the only fault there is, is finding faults!
1) Mahat (“great person”) — A mahat has the ability to see some good in everyone. They also perceive faults in others, but they consider that those faults can be eventually transformed by certain methods into good qualities.Thus, if they feel that a person may be benefited by discussing that person’s faults, they may, under appropriate circumstances, speak harsh words. Neem juice tastes very bitter, but it can cure diseases when administered appropriately. It should be noted that a mahat will never reject or condemn a faulty person, but thinks only how that person may be benefited.
Shyamananda Das - December 4, 2018 8:59 pm
8 hours ago, Brahma Samhita das said:seems like the only fault there is, is finding faults!
Not in the example of the mahat!
Brahma Samhita Das - December 4, 2018 9:26 pm
of course!
thanks for pointing that fault out 
Shyamananda Das - December 4, 2018 10:08 pm
Also, from Thakura Bhaktivinoda's artikel Vaishnava Ninda:
Proper motive is of three types:
desiring the welfare of the person criticized,
desiring the welfare of the world
and desiring one’s own welfare
There are three types of proper motive:
(1) If the intention in analyzing someone’s sins is to ensure that he attains his ultimate welfare, then such reflection is auspicious.
(2) If the motive behind reflecting on someone’s sins is to benefit the whole world, then this is to be counted as an auspicious act.
(3) If such reflection is undertaken for one’s own spiritual welfare, then it too, is auspicious. There is no fault in such reflection.
When one reflects upon the historical accounts of personalities like Valmiki or Jagai and Madhai in light of one or more of these three virtuous motives, then such reflection is never the cause of incurring sin. When a disciple humbly asks his spiritual master to instruct him on how to identify a Vaisnava, the spiritual master, desiring the welfare of his disciple and of the whole world, explains that those who exhibit unholy behaviour are non-Vaisnavas. He thus points out how to identify true Vaisnavas through antithesis.
With the motive of encouraging one to accept the shelter of the lotus feet of a true Vaisnava by abandoning false, so-called preachers of religion, one neither risks committing blasphemy of saints (sadhu-ninda) nor vaisnava-aparadha (offence to Vaisnavas). In such cases, even criticism directed at a specific person is free from fault. These are all examples of criticizing with the proper motive.
Swami B.V. Padmanabha - December 4, 2018 10:55 pm
46 minutes ago, Shyamananda das said:
Also, from Thakura Bhaktivinoda's artikel Vaishnava Ninda:
Proper motive is of three types:
desiring the welfare of the person criticized,
desiring the welfare of the world
and desiring one’s own welfareThere are three types of proper motive:
(1) If the intention in analyzing someone’s sins is to ensure that he attains his ultimate welfare, then such reflection is auspicious.
(2) If the motive behind reflecting on someone’s sins is to benefit the whole world, then this is to be counted as an auspicious act.
(3) If such reflection is undertaken for one’s own spiritual welfare, then it too, is auspicious. There is no fault in such reflection.
When one reflects upon the historical accounts of personalities like Valmiki or Jagai and Madhai in light of one or more of these three virtuous motives, then such reflection is never the cause of incurring sin. When a disciple humbly asks his spiritual master to instruct him on how to identify a Vaisnava, the spiritual master, desiring the welfare of his disciple and of the whole world, explains that those who exhibit unholy behaviour are non-Vaisnavas. He thus points out how to identify true Vaisnavas through antithesis.
With the motive of encouraging one to accept the shelter of the lotus feet of a true Vaisnava by abandoning false, so-called preachers of religion, one neither risks committing blasphemy of saints (sadhu-ninda) nor vaisnava-aparadha (offence to Vaisnavas). In such cases, even criticism directed at a specific person is free from fault. These are all examples of criticizing with the proper motive.
Mmmm..."How to identify a Vaisnava", I think you remember that one as wel Syamanandaji... Maybe a new whole thread for such a colossal topic (and article!)?
Madan Gopal Das - December 5, 2018 2:41 pm
yes, we may be diverting topic, but I'm struck by the specificity of this line:
16 hours ago, Shyamananda das said:With the motive of encouraging one to accept the shelter of the lotus feet of a true Vaisnava by abandoning false, so-called preachers of religion, one neither risks committing blasphemy of saints (sadhu-ninda) nor vaisnava-aparadha (offence to Vaisnavas). In such cases, even criticism directed at a specific person is free from fault. These are all examples of criticizing with the proper motive.
It seems BVT is clearing a doubt that is pervasive in today's Gaudiya community - if one's intent is to direct a person to a "true Vaisnava", one does not commit vaisnava-aparadha even by directly criticizing another vaisnava. Wow, there is room for abuse of this instruction and I can think of plenty of examples, but this instruction offers relief of the neurotic tendency to avoid the difficult work of using valid discriminating spiritual intelligence (madhyama skills). Growth is hard.
Shyamananda Das - December 5, 2018 3:07 pm
Padmanabha Maharaja and Madan Gopal,
I don't think this is off topic, but if you think it's better to start a new thread we can do that.
Madan Gopal Das - December 5, 2018 3:10 pm
1 minute ago, Shyamananda das said:I don't think this is off topic, but if you think it's better to start a new thread we can do that.
Nah - carry on! ☺️
Swami B.V. Padmanabha - December 5, 2018 6:21 pm
3 hours ago, Madan Gopal das said:Nah - carry on! ☺️
The same from my side...
Atmananda Dasa - December 5, 2018 7:33 pm
In my experiences in a “caring profession” of nursing I have had the revelation that in human society, myself included, most people are obsessed with their needs for emotional fulfillment. For example they feel an intense need to be respected and validated. These needs get entangled in everything and everyone that they are attached to/ identified with. Often people don’t even really fully know the thing or person that they have attached themselves to. It is more like a reflection of their own emotional needs and desires that they are projecting into that thing/group/person. This presents the real challenge because most people are not truly interested in knowing the substance of the person/group they have attached themselves to. As long as their needs for respect and validation are being met then they can often remain oblivious to even very obvious and glaring hypocrisy and falsehood. When such things are pointed out people, more often than not, tend to dig in their heels and defend rather than be open to seeing a difficult reality.
Madan Gopal Das - December 16, 2018 3:37 pm
Text 7
syāt kṛṣṇa-nāma-caritādi-sitāpy avidyā-
pittopatapta-rasanasya na rocikā nu
kintv ādarād anudinaṁ khalu saiva juṣṭā
svādvī kramād bhavati tad-gada-mūla-hantrī
Even Krsna’s Name, form, qualities and pastimes, which are like sweet sugar candy, are distasteful to one whose tongue is afflicted by the jaundice of ignorance. However, when one constantly and faithfully chants the Holy Name of Krsna and becomes absorbed in His divine attributes then gradually they become sweet and one’s ignorance is destroyed at the root.
Madan Gopal Das - December 16, 2018 9:49 pm
I particularly like Srila Sridhar Maharaj comments on the progressive stages of bhakti. I’ve rearranged some sentences to help emphasize the point he’s making about nistha and real ruci:
“Nistha is the next stage – characterized by the continuous remembrance of Krsna consciousness. It is just as when oil is poured in one continual flow, not drop by drop but a continual flow.... Nistha means continued association with Krsna – twenty-four hours living in the relativity of Krsna consciousness... Sometimes we may find that we are in the midst of other aspirations; that is not ruci proper. If now and then some ruci appears within us, that is not real ruci. Proper ruci is to be traced after nistha. The advent of ruci is only possible after the continued connection of Krsna, not before that. After nistha, when ruci will come, that will be reliable. That is proper ruci. And there will always be humility up to the last point. One will always think that, “I have no ruci.” Because the finite is coming in connection with the infinite, we can never be satisfied thinking, “I have got something!”
Krsna Caitanya Das - December 17, 2018 4:27 pm
Verse 6 and what Madan just posted remind me of how Guru Maharaja has said that it would be good to see another devotee as situated at a higher position than what we might think they are and ourselves as situated at a lower position than what we might think we are.
Krsna Caitanya Das - December 17, 2018 4:32 pm
On 12/4/2018 at 5:55 PM, Swami B.V. Padmanabha said:On 12/5/2018 at 10:07 AM, Shyamananda das said:Padmanabha Maharaja and Madan Gopal,
I don't think this is off topic, but if you think it's better to start a new thread we can do that.Mmmm..."How to identify a Vaisnava", I think you remember that one as wel Syamanandaji...
Syamananda and Padmanabha Maharaja,
Would you be interested in sharing your knowledge of "How to identify a Vaisnava"? I am interested to hear from you about this topic.
Swami B.V. Padmanabha - December 18, 2018 7:46 pm
On 12/17/2018 at 1:32 PM, krsna caitanya das said:Syamananda and Padmanabha Maharaja,
Would you be interested in sharing your knowledge of "How to identify a Vaisnava"? I am interested to hear from you about this topic.
The idea came for such comments came originally from the following article:
Brahma Samhita Das - December 24, 2018 7:34 pm
SSM said that Krishna often turns around the mistakes of his sincere devotees into something good and useful...
What about the many fallen Gurus (not so sincere devotees) that SSM would so generously describe to be recipients of the acharyas greatfullness ( comparing them to the case of Jesus and Judas)
Aren´t they teaching the world what we should not do and thus indirectly serve (knowingly or most probably unknowingly) by contrasting the example of the pure ?
Since somehow they are connected with Mahaprabhus movement, are their stories a part of Maha Maya`s manuscript or arranged directly by Yoga Maya? or perhaps thats relative to the listener, (asura mohan)
or is it important at all to define that dividing line?
The Brajavasis where so innocent and devoid of faultfinding that Putana could reach all the way to breastfeed Krishna!
aho baki yam stana-kala-kutam
jighamsayapayayad apy asadhvi
lebhe gatim dhatry-ucitam tato ’nyam
kam va dayalum saranam vrajema SB 3.2.23
Alas, how shall I take shelter of one more merciful than He who granted the position of mother to a she-demon [Pūtanā] although she was unfaithful and she prepared deadly poison to be sucked from her breast?
This assault of truth, disguised as motherly affection, BVT have identified as the false Guru, whose disciples have entrusted to nurture their Krishna conception of Godhead...
In due course of time, Krishna as truth personified, reveal the true form of such envious false Guru´s by exposing their scandal and so, her/his identity and spiritual authority in the subjective faith world of his disciples (and godbrothers) are kind of slain.
But what about the Guru that deviate due to weakness of heart and not due to envy?
Their faults are more alike those of Indra, and not Putana, right?
after the storm of his uncontrolled senses, Indra remembers his identity as a devotee, he apologizes and Krishna forgives him. He is even concerned to come alone, not to let him suffer the shame of an audience,
and he is not removed from his position as a King of the Devatas!
Gopeshwara Mahadeva , the guardian of Vrajas forests have her third eye open so that the divine couple and all vrajavasis can be so blinded as they are in their love for eachother.
fault finding to protects the faultless and purify the faulty...
devotees too need to take up such service at times,
SSM was given the name Bhakti Rakshak, the Guardian of devotion, I wonder if that service of guarding our conclusive philosophy resembles the kind of service Jiva Goswami rendered to his Gurudevas (and our whole parampara) through educating us in the tattva in his sandarbas, the stage of Krishnas lila... And ofcourse continued by Gurumaharaj in contemporary times.
Sometimes vaishnava humility takes the shape as when Sri Rupa´s declined to challenges of philosophical debate and even signing papers accepting defeat, and at other times that same humility manifests in the form of Sri Jiva`s accepting the challenge on his Gurudevas behalf, soon comming out victorious.
apparent opposite natures, contrasting and complementing one another, simultaniously, in the synthesis of their love for eachother.
some questions and thoughts. please excuse my ignorance
aspiring to serve you all, and cows included
Madan Gopal Das - December 27, 2018 5:16 pm
On 12/24/2018 at 2:34 PM, Brahma Samhita das said:SSM said that Krishna often turns around the mistakes of his sincere devotees into something good and useful...
Guru Maharaj sometimes references the concept of shobana karma "beautiful karma" that is karma arranged by the Lord in the life of a devotee for a specific purpose; maybe for observers in the tradition to learn a valuable lesson, maybe for the devotee to learn a special lesson... Either way this is karma arranged by the Lord and as with regular karma of the jiva I would think it is even more difficult to trace out the intracacies and understand the source and purpose.
On 12/24/2018 at 2:34 PM, Brahma Samhita das said:Aren´t they teaching the world what we should not do and thus indirectly serve (knowingly or most probably unknowingly) by contrasting the example of the pure ?
Since somehow they are connected with Mahaprabhus movement, are their stories a part of Maha Maya`s manuscript or arranged directly by Yoga Maya? or perhaps thats relative to the listener, (asura mohan)
or is it important at all to define that dividing line?
I don't feel it is important or possible to define what the purpose is. We will undoubtedly make mistakes in short term and small concept thinking. In the cases of devotees who are faithful to such "sincere devotees" and whose faith may be disturbed by their mistakes, it is most important how we increase our faith in the teaching based on those mistakes, not to get too caught up in hypotheses about the purpose of the mistake.
On 12/24/2018 at 2:34 PM, Brahma Samhita das said:But what about the Guru that deviate due to weakness of heart and not due to envy?
Their faults are more alike those of Indra, and not Putana, right?
and he is not removed from his position as a King of the Devatas!
And yet Indra is a king, a position of politics and managerial influence in the universe, not a king of devotion, or an example we're particularly following as to how to relate to practicing devotees, what to speak of teachers/gurus. He maintains a position of management, that is not really of any consequence to practicing devotees as Sri Krsna points out in the Govardhana-lila. Who cares for the manager? 😄
On 12/24/2018 at 2:34 PM, Brahma Samhita das said:Gopeshwara Mahadeva , the guardian of Vrajas forests have her third eye open so that the divine couple and all vrajavasis can be so blinded as they are in their love for eachother.
fault finding to protects the faultless and purify the faulty...
I believe the answer to all of your thoughts/questions here is - "good guidance". Good guidance, which is natural in a position of faith will be able to resolve contradictions or at least offer some soothing understanding at which to look at some of the more troubling obstacles on the path of devotion.
Brahma Samhita Das - December 27, 2018 7:25 pm
Dear Madan Gopal Prabhu
very happy with your answers and I accept them all.
since my heart confirm your every word with, "yes! it must be so"
Who cares for the manager? LOL !
heartfelt thanks for taking the time
indeed good guidence
Madan Gopal Das - January 8, 2019 11:50 pm
Still text 7, some really interesting illuminations by the guardian of devotion - Srila Sridhar Maharaj ki jaya!
Brhad-bhagavatamrta is quoted, a beautiful verse glorifying the holy name "which causes the devotee to give up all religious duties, meditation and worship."
SSM describes duty as varnasrama-dharma and dhyana/meditation as an escape from the physical world and internal focus. These things are "paralyzed" when we serve the holy name. Of interest to me was how SSM discusses puja/worship: "That is covering the Ramanuja sampradaya. They are very fond of arcana. When one gets the grace of the Holy Name, he becomes indifferent to other service, even arcana. There is no necessity... Any work - even if it may be for Krsna - the Name can stop all this. You will not be able to give any attention to any other thing... Only when the Holy Name allows you to do other services, can you do that. The Holy Name has such a high degree of potency. It will stop all other branches of service and charm you."
Wow, there is so much in there. Jai Harinama prabhu! We aspire for such paralysis!
Especially this part about indifference to other service, even arcana, made me consider GM sometimes speaking about how the raga marga retires some aspects of bhakti. He will say how raga marga is nourished by three and a half anga's; hearing, chanting, remembering and some of deity worship. I can't remember now, but I think he speaks of the part of deity worship that extends into raga marga as the hearing and chanting of the names because there is so much invocation of nama in deity seva. Also, we know from Raga vartma candrika that certain aspects of deity worship are not favorable to raga - worship of the queens of dvaraka, mudras, etc.
Any comments?
Madan Gopal Das - January 25, 2019 1:32 am
Madan Gopal Das - January 25, 2019 1:38 pm
From the illumination
5 stages of the sadhaka:
1. Sravana-dasa - hearing stage
2. Varana-dasa - acceptance by guru and disciple
3. Sadhana-dasa - the attempt for realization (full of struggle, up to this stage life of sadhaka is "a little painful."
4. Apana-dasa - the stage of realization
5. Prapana-dasa - attainment, stage of full surrender and distribution to others.
Atmananda Dasa - January 25, 2019 4:57 pm
Thanks for sharing this Madan. I was considering how in VCT's analysis from Madhurya Kadambini bhajana Kriya and anartha nrvritti being two separately delineated stages maybe is difficult to understand because the application of the bhajana kriya seems to cause the anartha nrvritti. Simply stating that there is a stage called sadhana that is full of struggle and a little painful, like you're doing sadhana given by the guru and its tough because of all the anarthas getting purified seems to be a little more relatable.
If anyone can refine my understanding I welcome that.
Madan Gopal Das - January 25, 2019 6:52 pm
It appears this 5 stages idea SSM relates comes from Caitanya Siksamrta of BVT. I'm trying to find exactly where to see if there is some elaboration. BVT's writings are so interesting! He's so liberal in restating various ideas, expanding on concepts, modernizing, etc etc. A truly amazing preacher! I'll report back what I find...
Krsna Caitanya Das - February 20, 2019 11:34 am
On 12/16/2018 at 4:49 PM, madan gopal das said:Nistha is the next stage – characterized by the continuous remembrance of Krsna consciousness. It is just as when oil is poured in one continual flow, not drop by drop but a continual flow.... Nistha means continued association with Krsna – twenty-four hours living in the relativity of Krsna consciousness...
I ran into the following in the Bhajana Rahasya this morning:
Text 27 [chapter 2]
Do not endeavour to perform activities such as atoning for sins through
karma and jñāna. The Padma Purāṇa says:
harer apy aparādhān yaḥ
kuryād dvi-pada-pāṁśalaḥ
nāmāśrayaḥ kadācit syāt
taraty eva sa nāmataḥ
nāmno ’pi sarva-suhṛdo
hy aparādhāt pataty adhaḥ
nāmāparādha-yuktānāṁ
nāmāny eva haranty-agham
aviśrānta-prayuktāni
tāny evārtha-karāṇi ca
That wretched person who commits sevā-aparādha at the lotus
feet of Śrī Hari can become freed from his offence if he takes
shelter of the holy name. Every kind of aparādha is nullified by
service to the holy name. All perfection is attained by chanting the
holy name without anarthas, keeping in mind one’s relationship
with the Supreme Lord. Such chanting must be continuous and
uninterrupted, like an unbroken stream of oil.
Madan Gopal Das - February 20, 2019 1:08 pm
1 hour ago, krsna caitanya das said:Such chanting must be continuous and uninterrupted, like an unbroken stream of oil.
That's cool! What translation? Is BVT saying this like this or do you get the sense this simile comes direct from the translation? I really like the imagery of oil. Thickened consciousness, not "watered down" (oil and water don't mix), steady, flowing, consistent (thick consistency).
Thanks for the prompt to get back to posting here!
Krsna Caitanya Das - February 20, 2019 2:24 pm
1 hour ago, madan gopal das said:That's cool! What translation? Is BVT saying this like this or do you get the sense this simile comes direct from the translation?
It was from Srila Narayana Maharaja's translation. I am not sure if the oil reference is contained in the sanskrti or not because another translation of the Padma Purana verses does not mention oil:
"One should refrain from atonement in relation to karma and jnana. The Padma
Purana gives the following statement:
harer apy aparadhan yah kuryad dvi pada -pam s-alah
namasrayah kadacit syat taraty eva sa namatah
namno 'pi sarva suhrd-o hy aparadhat pataty adhah
namaparadha yuktan-am namany eva haranty aghamavisranta prayuktani tany evarthakarani ca (27)
The lowest of human beings who commit offenses at the lotus feet of Sri Hari will
certainly cross the material ocean if they somehow take shelter of the holy name.
However, those who commit offenses against the holy name, the well-wisher of all,
certainly fall down. They are freed from their offense only by continually chanting
the holy name. Indeed, one can attain all types of perfection by continuous
chanting."
Neither translation mentions what verse of the Padma Purana is being cited.
In Narayana Maharaja's version the following bengali lines come right after this verse with no English translation:
kṛṣṇera śrī-mūrti prati aparādha kari’
nāmāśraye sei aparādhe yaya tari’
nāma aparādha yata nāme haya kṣaya
aviśrānta nāma laile sarva-siddhi haya
Krsna Caitanya Das - February 20, 2019 2:46 pm
These verses also appear in Brs. 1.2.119-120:
|1.2.119-120||
"pädme ca—
sarväparädha-kåd api mucyate hari-saàçrayaù |
harer apy aparädhän yaù kuryäd dvipada-päàsavaù ||119||
nämäçrayaù kadäcit syät taraty eva sa nämataù |
nämno ’pi sarva-suhådo hy aparädhät pataty adhaù ||120||
Translation: This is also described in the Padma Puräëa:
A person who commits all offenses is freed from all
those offenses by taking complete shelter of Hari. But
the two-legged animal who commits offense against
Hari is freed from those offenses by taking shelter of
Hari’s name. However, though the name is the friend of
all, by committing an offense against the name, a person
falls to the lower regions. "
I'm not sure where the oil simile comes from, but I like it, too.
Krsna Caitanya Das - February 21, 2019 8:11 pm
On 1/25/2019 at 8:38 AM, madan gopal das said:5 stages of the sadhaka:
1. Sravana-dasa - hearing stage
2. Varana-dasa - acceptance by guru and disciple
3. Sadhana-dasa - the attempt for realization (full of struggle, up to this stage life of sadhaka is "a little painful."
4. Apana-dasa - the stage of realization
5. Prapana-dasa - attainment, stage of full surrender and distribution to others.
In The Nectar of Instruction, Srila Prabhupada quotes Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura as follows:
“In the neophyte stage one should always engage in hearing kṛṣṇa-kathā. This is called śravaṇa-daśā, the stage of hearing. By constantly hearing the transcendental holy name of Kṛṣṇa and hearing of His transcendental form, qualities and pastimes, one can attain to the stage of acceptance called varaṇa-daśā. When one attains this stage, he becomes attached to the hearing of kṛṣṇa-kathā. When one is able to chant in ecstasy, he attains the stage of smaraṇāvasthā, the stage of remembering. Recollection, absorption, meditation, constant remembrance and trance are the five items of progressive kṛṣṇa-smaraṇa. At first, remembrance of Kṛṣṇa may be interrupted at intervals, but later remembrance proceeds uninterrupted. When remembrance is uninterrupted, it becomes concentrated and is called meditation. When meditation expands and becomes constant, it is called anusmṛti. By uninterrupted and unceasing anusmṛti one enters the stage of samādhi, or spiritual trance. After smaraṇa-daśā or samādhi has fully developed, the soul comes to understand his original constitutional position. At that time he can perfectly and clearly understand his eternal relationship with Kṛṣṇa. That is called sampatti-daśā, the perfection of life."
SP says that this is from SBST''s commentary on Brs. 1.2.295:
sevā sādhaka-rūpeṇa
siddha-rūpeṇa cātra hi
tad-bhāva-lipsunā kāryā
vraja-lokānusārataḥ
“In the transcendental realm of Vraja [Vraja-dhāma] one should serve the Supreme Lord, Śrī Kṛṣṇa, with a feeling similar to that of His associates, and one should place himself under the direct guidance of a particular associate of Kṛṣṇa and should follow in his footsteps. This method is applicable both in the stage of sādhana [spiritual practices executed while in the stage of bondage] and in the stage of sādhya [God realization], when one is a siddha-puruṣa, or a spiritually perfect soul.”
Swami B.V. Padmanabha - February 22, 2019 1:23 pm
On 2/20/2019 at 11:24 AM, krsna caitanya das said:In Narayana Maharaja's version the following bengali lines come right after this verse with no English translation:
kṛṣṇera śrī-mūrti prati aparādha kari’
nāmāśraye sei aparādhe yaya tari’
nāma aparādha yata nāme haya kṣaya
aviśrānta nāma laile sarva-siddhi haya
It doesn´t seem to speak about oil in this Bengali line but anyway, the analogy persists perfectly, steadily and thickly... :)
Madan Gopal Das - February 22, 2019 2:47 pm
18 hours ago, krsna caitanya das said:In The Nectar of Instruction, Srila Prabhupada quotes Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura as follows:
“In the neophyte stage one should always engage in hearing kṛṣṇa-kathā. This is called śravaṇa-daśā, the stage of hearing. By constantly hearing the transcendental holy name of Kṛṣṇa and hearing of His transcendental form, qualities and pastimes, one can attain to the stage of acceptance called varaṇa-daśā. When one attains this stage, he becomes attached to the hearing of kṛṣṇa-kathā. When one is able to chant in ecstasy, he attains the stage of smaraṇāvasthā, the stage of remembering. Recollection, absorption, meditation, constant remembrance and trance are the five items of progressive kṛṣṇa-smaraṇa. At first, remembrance of Kṛṣṇa may be interrupted at intervals, but later remembrance proceeds uninterrupted. When remembrance is uninterrupted, it becomes concentrated and is called meditation. When meditation expands and becomes constant, it is called anusmṛti. By uninterrupted and unceasing anusmṛti one enters the stage of samādhi, or spiritual trance. After smaraṇa-daśā or samādhi has fully developed, the soul comes to understand his original constitutional position. At that time he can perfectly and clearly understand his eternal relationship with Kṛṣṇa. That is called sampatti-daśā, the perfection of life."
SP says that this is from SBST''s commentary on Brs. 1.2.295:
Awesome find! And I remember reading this now that you bring it up... I had a hard time finding the specific reference of these 5 stages from Caitanya Siksamrta so I'll see what I can find from commentaries on that important Brs verse.
Fun to get lost in scriptural tangents!
Madan Gopal Das - February 22, 2019 4:14 pm
Okay!
So BVT speaks of these 5 stages in the 15th chapter of his Harinama-cintamani. He is describing a developmental process of raganuga bhakti commonly known as "siddha pranali" and laying out "eleven transcendental sentiments (which) adorn the heart" which are in his description tied into development of a gopi deha. These are things like age, group, attire, place of residence, service, etc. He then describes the 5 stages sravana-dasa, varana-dasa, etc. as a developmental process the raganuga sadhaka goes through in relationship to cultivating a bhava-deha under the guidance of the guru. His description is very similar to what plays out in a more direct conversation in his Jaiva Dharma. The students show some interest in a particular rasa, the teacher gives some instruction, the student hears (sravana), accepts that mellow (varana), remembers the sentiments of the rasa (smarana) etc...
I can't find a commentary of BSST on seva sadhaka rupena, but that would be interesting to see how he references these 5 stages there. I don't want to get too distracted by this discussion and get off topic (though it is SO tempting), but just interesting to find where this reference coming from SSM in Upadesamrta originates. I haven't found any reference to these 5 stages prior to BVT.
Krsna Caitanya Das - February 22, 2019 5:12 pm
39 minutes ago, madan gopal das said:I can't find a commentary of BSST on seva sadhaka rupena, but that would be interesting to see how he references these 5 stages there. I don't want to get too distracted by this discussion and get off topic (though it is SO tempting), but just interesting to find where this reference coming from SSM in Upadesamrta originates. I haven't found any reference to these 5 stages prior to BVT.
If it is so tempting, maybe you should give in to this temptation😊. I am interested to see where it leads. I think we can always come back to our topic where we left it (if we even think that following this temptation is getting off topic [I'm not convinced that it is]).
The unknown nature of the oil simile makes me think of what you were reading at my house the other day in relation to who wrote Prema Vivarta. Was is BVT or Jagadanada Pandit? I am still interested to know where the oil idea comes from, either SSM's or SNM's use of it. At the same time, it seems like we all appreciate the analogy no matter where it comes from. It is revelation.
I would also be interested to know where the BSST commentary comes from. There is more of the quote found before and after the selection that I provided. I remember it really kind of turned my head around when I first ran into this extended BSST quote in the purport of Text 8 of The Nectar of Instruction.
Krsna Caitanya Das - February 27, 2019 5:25 pm
On 2/22/2019 at 11:14 AM, madan gopal das said:So BVT speaks of these 5 stages in the 15th chapter of his Harinama-cintamani.
Guru Maharaja talks about some of these stages in his 1/21/2019 class, "Friends Forever: Dharma or Death".
Madan Gopal Das - March 21, 2019 2:38 pm
That was a fun diversion and interesting to hear GM reference these stages as another way of speaking about stages of progress. Neat how GM also related them to the cowherds and their acceptance (varana) of their duties like there was nothing else to live for.
Madan Gopal Das - March 21, 2019 4:42 pm
...continuing upadesa-saram (essence of all advice), Srila Sridhar Maharaj speaks of 24 hour engagement from a lila perspective, making a case that madhurya rasa "is the total rasa, and the most intense of all rasas... 24 hours engagement is only possible in madhurya rasa" etc. I don't think we need to discuss this considering that we know from other points of view all rasa's are 24 hours, all are entirely "intense" and consume the totality of the asrayalambana devotee.
_____________________
SSM then discusses a spirit of caution towards more advanced topics of bhakti:
QuoteOne who desires real sincere improvement will not omit any steps. Sraddha, sadhu-sanga, bhajana-kriya, anartha-nivrtti, ruci, asakti then bhava. They must be true to their own self whether they have followed each of these steps. Raga-marga proper begins at bhava-bhakti. Up to the awakening of real bhava one must follow vaidhi-bhakti and anartha-nivrtti in order to be sure that attraction for any charm of this material world has gone altogether.
and...
pujala raga-patha gaurava-bhange
and...
kirtana-prabhave, smarana haibe
Madan Gopal Das - March 21, 2019 4:54 pm
SSM in discussing sahajiyas, taking Radha-Govinda lila cheaply, speaks in such a beautiful way:
QuoteThe mind is not sraddha for sraddha is connected with the soul and the mind is connected with matter. The mind is material. Therefore the mind cannot produce sraddha. Sraddha is an original, fundamental thing. When sraddha awakens, the mind vanishes.
I love that ^
Vamsidas - March 22, 2019 7:14 pm
Hopefully no one minds if I dip back a couple of pages? Promise that I'll work my up to more current posts in this thread!
On 12/16/2018 at 4:49 PM, madan gopal das said:I particularly like Srila Sridhar Maharaj comments on the progressive stages of bhakti. I’ve rearranged some sentences to help emphasize the point he’s making about nistha...
There's a line here that you struck that I thought perhaps gives some additional clarity--for me, at least--regarding nistha that I wanted to highlight:
"Nistha is the next stage – characterized by the continuous remembrance of Krsna consciousness. It is just as when oil is poured in one continual flow, not drop by drop but a continual flow. Similarly, Krsna consciousness will remain always in our mind in some form or other."
First, like the rest of you, I appreciated the feeling invoked by the use of oil in the analogy. It brings to mind not only a certain thickness in comparison to water, but also a certain...persistence in comparison to water. Perhaps that's not quite the right word, but I'm thinking of getting a drop of oil on a shirt versus just a drop of water. That water will just evaporate, but that oil spot likely isn't going anywhere, even after washing. So, "similarly, Krsna consciousness will remain always in our mind in some form or other."
Second, I seem to have some difficulty properly understanding this constancy of nistha, and perhaps incorrectly tend to think of it as constant outward engagement in very direct forms of bhakti. Maybe some conflation with asakti on my part. This line by Pujyapada Sridhara Maharaja suggests to me that this constant flow can be external or internal, i.e. outward engagement or just an internal undercurrent (like chanting/singing/remembering in the mind while doing something else unrelated). If I'm right, then this really clears up some of my fogginess related to nistha (which makes finding it on the map a bit easier). If I'm wrong, hopefully someone can correct me.
Madan Gopal Das - March 26, 2019 4:14 pm
A devotee in nistha is also persistent like oil and not "watered down", easily diverted, but rather sticky, absorbed, undeterred, consistent, stained... I love these adjectives when thinking about how consciousness is influenced by the Lord.
Yes, I think you are correct in regarding the constant "flow" to be one of Krsna consciousness, an absorption that is not characterized by either external or internal activities but rather by the fixed-ness, determination of the consciousness to be on Krsna. Another line I'm not sure if I quoted from SSM in that section:
QuoteNistha means continued association with Krsna - twenty-four hours living in the relativity of Krsna consciousness
Krsna Caitanya Das - March 27, 2019 3:27 pm
This part of SSM's quote stood out to me:
"Nistha is the next stage – characterized by the continuous remembrance of Krsna consciousness."
Bhakti Ballabh Tirtha Maharaj calls the 3rd Yama Sadhana of the Bhajana Rahasya this:
"Niṣṭhā-bhajana— Fixation of mind to the Object of worship (Śrī Kṛṣṇa)"
It seems to me that nistha involves an engagement of the mind that previous stages did not.
This part of the Madurya Kadambini from the 6th Chapter seems to describe a gradation of increasing spontaneous absorption of the mind in Krishna as well as an increasing ability to consciously control and observe the mind's activities:
"In previous stages, the devotee would pray, 'Alas! My mind is so afflicted by material desires; how can I fix it on the Lord?' With great determination, he would drag his mind from material matters and fix them on the Lord's form, qualities, and so on. With the appearance of asakti, however, the same mind turns spontaneously to the Lord without any such deliberate effort. Just as a devotee even at the nishtha stage is unable to detect how and when his mind slips away from chanting, hearing, and remembering the Lord to turn to other matters, similarly one who has not yet reached the asakti stage cannot really tell how and when his mind slips away from other matters to become absorbed in the Lord. The devotee who has reached asakti, however, is able to observe all this."
Krsna Caitanya Das - March 29, 2019 2:30 pm
Guru Maharaja has also said that the intellect is quite engaged at the stage of nishtha, the buddhi is immersed in sambandha jnana.
I have sometimes tried to look at the stages of bhakti in relation to the anta karana. The sadhaka perceives (citta), desires (manas), understands (buddhi), and has a certain identity (ahankara, sadhaka deha, siddha deha), according to their standing in bhakti.
Seen in this way, one could possibly say that in nishtha, one's understanding (buddhi) of bhakti is pretty well established. In ruci, there are hardly any material desires (manas) left except for the desire for devotional service, birth after birth. In asakti, one begins to get a glipse of one's spiritual identity (siddha deha). I suppose the gradation of the cleansing of the citta (perception) could explain not being able to perceive when the mind slips away from the Lord (nishtha) or slips away from material matters (ruci).I suppose the citta of one at asakti is cleansed to the point of being able to perceive all this.
I have found it to being quite engaging and enjoyable to consider the development of the nine stages of bhakti in relation to the antakarana. If that also sounds like fun to anyone, we could consider it in detail on another thread.
Gauravani Dasa - March 29, 2019 2:59 pm
KC, I have a similar understanding of nista as well: the intelligence (buddhi) is fortified with the scriptural knowledge that the self is eternal consciousness (i.e., antakarana) and that temporary material fruits and pursuits are full of suffering. Therefore, the intelligence of the bhakta in nista is fixed which leads them to a fixed engagement in sadhana.
Please correct me if I am wrong here, but ruci is the stage in which the sadhaka is attached to (i.e., tasting) sadhana, correct? And then the sadhaka does not develop an attachment to Krsna until asakti. If this is correct, then nista would be a stage where one is fixed in practice because one knows there is nothing else worth doing--a kind of negative impetus based on an antakarana of "I know I am not this or that"--which eventually turns into a positive impetus when one derives taste from sadhana in asakti.
Madan Gopal Das - March 29, 2019 3:24 pm
48 minutes ago, krsna caitanya das said:I have sometimes tried to look at the stages of bhakti in relation to the anta karana. The sadhaka perceives (citta), desires (manas), understands (buddhi), and has a certain identity (ahankara, sadhaka deha, siddha deha), according to their standing in bhakti.
very interesting... 
Madan Gopal Das - March 29, 2019 4:02 pm
55 minutes ago, Gauravani dasa said:nista would be a stage where one is fixed in practice because one knows there is nothing else worth doing--a kind of negative impetus based on an antakarana of "I know I am not this or that"--which eventually turns into a positive impetus when one derives taste from sadhana in asakti.
SSM does say in this section "After nistha, the negative side is eliminated."
Krsna Caitanya Das - March 29, 2019 4:09 pm
Below is Srila Jiva Goswami's commentary to Sri Rupa's "ādau śraddhā tataḥ sādhusaṅgo ..." verses from Brs. 1.4.15-16. I think the last few sentences are interesting in relation to our conversation, especially his mention of the intellect.
"Though there are many steps in the progression of bhakti, the most common sequence is stated in two verses. In the beginning (ādau), by hearing the scriptures in association with the devotees, one attains faith (śraddhā). Śraddhā means trust or confidence. Then, after faith appears, again association with devotees takes place (sadhu-saṅga), for learning how to practice bhakti. Niṣṭhā means continuous bhakti without confusion. Ruci means desire for the Lord, but with direction by the intellect. Āsakti means desire, which is natural or spontaneous (without intellectual direction)."
VCT also seems to mention the intellect in the 5th chapter of the Madurya Kadambini with the idea that increased understanding brings about increased taste for devotional activities:
"When the gold medallion of bhakti glows in the fire of devotional practices, its effulgence gives rise to ruchi in the heart of a devotee. Ruchi means a special taste for a particular devotional activity such as chanting or hearing, over others. In this stage, a sadhaka never feels the slightest fatigue even by repeated hearing and chanting, as may have happened even on the nishtha platform. Such taste quickly brings the devotee to the stage of attachment or asakti for chanting and hearing.
This happens in the same way that a young brahmin, who only after constant study of the scriptures starts to get an understanding of the meaning of the texts, which gives him an increased taste for studying. As a result of this taste, he does not feel any fatigue while studying and indeed takes pleasure in it."
Krsna Caitanya Das - March 29, 2019 4:55 pm
1 hour ago, Gauravani dasa said:And then the sadhaka does not develop an attachment to Krsna until asakti. If this is correct, then nista would be a stage where one is fixed in practice because one knows there is nothing else worth doing--a kind of negative impetus based on an antakarana of "I know I am not this or that"--which eventually turns into a positive impetus when one derives taste from sadhana in asakti.
20 minutes ago, madan gopal das said:SSM does say in this section "After nistha, the negative side is eliminated."
Maybe we have a positive and negative impetus all along and then "After nistha, the negative side is eliminated." This leaves only the positive, which is now much easier to focus on given that most anathas are gone and desires for other things are mostly gone as well. At nistha, our ajata-ruci raganuga bhakti can more easily turn into jata-ruci raganuga bhakti.
I say this because we are following raganuga bhakti. In vaidhi bhakti, the motivation is mainly to avoid suffering and do the angas because we should do them. "God is God and we are His servants." In raga bhakti, we have run into a sadhu or sadhus who have a certain love for Krishna that we want to follow. There are ajata-ruci-raganuga-bhaktas and jata-ruci-raganuga bhaktas, but both are raganuga bhaktas. That is why I am guessing that, although full attachment to Krishna does not appear until asakti, some sort of attachment to love of Krishna appeared whenever we were even slightly affected by hearing about the love that the inhabitants of Vraja have for Krishna. Following that raga and following the devotees who have that raga, or who are also following that raga, became our positive impetus, which remains after "the negative side is eliminated."
Or, maybe something like that. I find it interesting and enlivening that every time I dive into trying to understand the stages of bhakti, I come away feeling like I better understand them, but also have less understanding than I thought I did, simultaneously. Either way, I do know that by discussing these topics, understanding it or not, it allows us to be better situated for accepting the mercy.
Vamsidas - March 29, 2019 5:00 pm
40 minutes ago, krsna caitanya das said:VCT also seems to mention the intellect in the 5th chapter of the Madurya Kadambini with the idea that increased understanding brings about increased taste for devotional activities:
"Ruchi means a special taste for a particular devotional activity such as chanting or hearing, over others."
Out of curiosity, which translation is this from? In Ananta das Babaji Maharaja's translation, it's rendered as "ruci means a special taste in every devotional part such as chanting, hearing, and so on." He adds the following in his commentary on this verse:
"ruci is related to bhajana. A special taste in each devotional part such as hearing, chanting, and so on of the Lord’s name, form, and qualities is known as ruci. When ruci awakens one never gets even slightly tired of repeated hearing and chanting, like before."
(emphasis in both quotes is mine)
Krsna Caitanya Das - March 29, 2019 5:37 pm
24 minutes ago, Vamsidas said:Out of curiosity, which translation is this from?
This is interesting. It appears that we are quoting from two different English translations of Ananta das Babaji Maharaja's book. I was quoting from a hard copy which credits the translation to a "Joint effort of many individuals over time." It is edited by "Jagadananda Das". I found a pdf version of yours that says it is "Translated by Advaitadas".
Here is my version's version of the same part of the commentary: "Ruchi, taste or desire, is here directed toward bhajan. One of the characteristics of this stage is that one develops a special or stronger taste for one particular devotional activity, such as hearing or chanting of either the Lord's name, form or qualities. As in the nishtha stage, one is engaged continuously in devotional practices, but when ruchi awakens one never gets in the least weary of hearing and chanting."
Krsna Caitanya Das - March 29, 2019 5:49 pm
Check out this from the Brs.:
||1.2.264||
sā bhaktir eka-mukhyāṇgāśritānaikāṅgi kātha vā |
sva-vāsanānusāreṇa niṣṭhātaḥ siddhi-kṛd bhavet ||264||
Translation: Bhakti, taking shelter of one principal aṅga or
many aṅgas according to one’s desire, and practiced with
steadiness, brings about the desired result (bhāva and prema).
Viśvanātha Cakravartī Ṭhākura’s Commentary
That bhakti in which one aṅga is performed as the principal one
among hearing, chanting and other aṅgas, while other aṅgas become secondary, or that bhakti in which many aṅgas are performed, leads to perfection. The choice of one or many aṅgas is according to one’s preference (sva-vāsaṇusārena).
Perhaps Advaitadas Prabhu prefers to perform many angas and Jagadananda Prabhu (or a different individual who translated this part) prefers to perform one anga?
Krsna Caitanya Das - March 29, 2019 6:07 pm
I heard that Srila Narayana Maharaja has a version of Madhurya Kadabini. Does anyone have it? If so, I wonder what his translation says in Chapter 5.
Madan Gopal Das - March 29, 2019 6:41 pm
Not to sound too obvious, but yes, definitely jata-ruci after nistha because the sadhaka is in "ruci proper". As SSM says:
QuoteSometimes we may find that we are in the midst of other aspirations; that is not ruci proper. If now and then some ruci appears within us, that is not real ruci.
While researching related topics came across this helpful translations of key terms:
From Raga Vartma Candrika 2.7 (Ananta Das Babaji translation)
QuoteNow it will be described how the raganugiya bhakta gradually advances through the stages of anartha nivrtti (cessation of bad habits), nistha (fixation), ruci (taste), and asakti (attachment to the beloved deity) up to the stage of prema (love of god)...
Vamsidas - March 29, 2019 6:48 pm
2 hours ago, krsna caitanya das said:Maybe we have a positive and negative impetus all along and then "After nistha, the negative side is eliminated." This leaves only the positive, which is now much easier to focus on given that most anathas are gone and desires for other things are mostly gone as well. At nistha, our ajata-ruci raganuga bhakti can more easily turn into jata-ruci raganuga bhakti.
I say this because we are following raganuga bhakti. In vaidhi bhakti, the motivation is mainly to avoid suffering and do the angas because we should do them. "God is God and we are His servants." In raga bhakti, we have run into a sadhu or sadhus who have a certain love for Krishna that we want to follow. There are ajata-ruci-raganuga-bhaktas and jata-ruci-raganuga bhaktas, but both are raganuga bhaktas. That is why I am guessing that, although full attachment to Krishna does not appear until asakti, some sort of attachment to love of Krishna appeared whenever we were even slightly affected by hearing about the love that the inhabitants of Vraja have for Krishna. Following that raga and following the devotees who have that raga, or who are also following that raga, became our positive impetus, which remains after "the negative side is eliminated."
I agree with your reasoning here (for whatever that's worth). Even just the cessation of suffering that comes early in sadhana bhakti could be viewed as a positive.
I'll add, though, in relation to the motivation for raganuga bhakti specifically is cited as lobha--that lobha comes from either God or from a raganuga bhakta. [I'm paraphrasing portions of Raga Vartma Candrika 1.4 - 6]
Madan Gopal Das - March 29, 2019 7:00 pm
44 minutes ago, krsna caitanya das said:I heard that Srila Narayana Maharaja has a version of Madhurya Kadabini. Does anyone have it? If so, I wonder what his translation says in Chapter 5.
"At that time, the distinctive delight the sādhaka feels in performing one particular limb of bhakti over another is called ruci."
Vamsidas - March 29, 2019 8:20 pm
1 hour ago, krsna caitanya das said:This is interesting.
Isn't it? Seems likely that there was a misinterpretation in the original translation by Advaita das that was later corrected in the version you quoted.
2 hours ago, krsna caitanya das said:I heard that Srila Narayana Maharaja has a version of Madhurya Kadabini. Does anyone have it? If so, I wonder what his translation says in Chapter 5.
Vamsidas - March 29, 2019 10:54 pm
On 1/8/2019 at 6:50 PM, madan gopal das said:Still text 7, some really interesting illuminations by the guardian of devotion - Srila Sridhar Maharaj ki jaya!
Any comments?
You keep clipping all of my favorite lines from Maharaja's commentary on verse 7!
"When you finally come in contact with the sound aspect of the Absolute, then all other enthusiastic attempts in you will be paralyzed."
"Mahaprabhu is the pioneer of sankirtana, not of japa...The positive attainment is that we may lose ourselves in the ocean of inconceivable sweetness of the Holy Name. That is Mahaprabhu’s grace. Param vijayate sri krsna sankirtanam."
Ok, now I can move on to text 8 with the rest of you.
Vamsidas - March 30, 2019 4:28 pm
So this hooks well with my last post, as we go from Srila Sridhara Maharaja's closing comment in text 7, Param vijayate sri krsna sankirtanam, to (towards the end of text 8 ) his comments on the superiority of kīrtana over...well...everything, really. He quotes Srila Jiva Goswami, asserting that:
Quote"...all other forms of sadhana must be subservient to kīrtana. This is the preaching of Mahaprabhu, because in Kali-yuga, kīrtana has its own characteristic. If any ācārya has stressed smaraṇa anywhere then that only means that kīrtana is relative to the material environment and smaraṇa is independent of material consideration. With this consciousness they may have recommended that smaraṇa is highest. But this is not accepted in a general way."
*Note: I kind of went down a rabbit hole on this one, but if anyone else is interested, where SSM has quoted Jiva Goswami, the text should actually read ata eva yad anyāpi bhaktiḥ kalau kartavyā, tadā tat-saṁyogenaivety uktam. (Bhakti Sandarbha, 273)
[edited to add: the verse as cited in SSM's Upadesamrta is technically correct per an old edition of source text for Bhakti Sandarbha, but a revised and authoritative edition has it rendered as I've listed it here.]
He really takes the sahajiya sector to task after that. Imitation of a good thing is a good thing, but here we find the limitations of that statement (though the argument can be made that the problem is that it is not imitation in full).
As he closes out his comments on this text, he makes a bold statement:
QuoteAll types of sādhana demands that the mind should be destroyed – mano-nigraha-lakṣanāntāḥ. There may be different forms and types of sādhana, but they all agree on this point – the mind must be finished.
This brings to mind - 😬 - a discussion I started on TVFB a while back about the existence of a spiritual(ized) mind in the siddha-deha, which we concluded must be present. Maharaja's comments here must thus pertain to the material mind.
Vamsidas - March 30, 2019 4:37 pm
On 1/25/2019 at 8:38 AM, madan gopal das said:From the illumination
5 stages of the sadhaka:
1. Sravana-dasa - hearing stage
2. Varana-dasa - acceptance by guru and disciple
3. Sadhana-dasa - the attempt for realization (full of struggle, up to this stage life of sadhaka is "a little painful."
4. Apana-dasa - the stage of realization
5. Prapana-dasa - attainment, stage of full surrender and distribution to others.
So how are these five stages connected to or overlapping the nine stages of bhakti? Reading through them in that list, they seem to cover all nine, particularly as SSM seems to tie apana-dasa to bhava. At the end of that paragraph though, he refers to them as the five stages of sadhana-bhakti, which as we know stops at asakti.
Vamsidas - March 30, 2019 4:45 pm
On 1/25/2019 at 11:57 AM, Atmananda dasa said:Thanks for sharing this Madan. I was considering how in VCT's analysis from Madhurya Kadambini bhajana Kriya and anartha nrvritti being two separately delineated stages maybe is difficult to understand because the application of the bhajana kriya seems to cause the anartha nrvritti. Simply stating that there is a stage called sadhana that is full of struggle and a little painful, like you're doing sadhana given by the guru and its tough because of all the anarthas getting purified seems to be a little more relatable.
If anyone can refine my understanding I welcome that.
Though I question my ability to refine anyone's understanding of spiritual matters, I'll mention that it may be helpful to think of anartha-nivritti less of a stage or event between two others and more of a process that happens throughout the various other phases/stages--from bhajana-kriya through to even bhava. In some ways that may be much like how you appreciated just thinking of a stage of sadhana above, so maybe you'll find that equally relatable.
Krsna Caitanya Das - March 30, 2019 7:41 pm
On 3/29/2019 at 2:48 PM, Vamsidas said:I'll add, though, in relation to the motivation for raganuga bhakti specifically is cited as lobha--that lobha comes from either God or from a raganuga bhakta. [I'm paraphrasing portions of Raga Vartma Candrika 1.4 - 6]
Brs.(1.2.292) also mentions that lobha could come from the scriptures:
"The appearance of that greed is indicated when the
intelligence does not depend on rules of scripture and logic,
after realizing to some degree the sweetness of their (inhabitants of Vraja) love through the process of hearing from the
scriptures."
VCT also mentions in his commentary to Brs. 1.2.293:
"However, wherever that greed has appeared, it is understood that the person must have
studied the scriptures in order to attain that greed. It is also necessary to study the scriptures in order to understand the proper
sādhana for rāgānuga-bhakti."
I think it is interesting that, both in Brs. and Raga Vartma Candrika, there is a disregard for scriptural rules, regulations, injunctions, etc. while, at the same time, it is mentioned that one needs to hear from the scriptures to attain lobha and also go forward properly in raga bhakti (guru, sadhu, sastra)
Vamsidas - March 31, 2019 12:53 pm
4 hours ago, krsna caitanya das said:Brs.(1.2.292) also mentions that lobha could come from the scriptures...
Wouldn't you just consider the scriptures to be a subset of Bhagavan or the raganuga bhakta? VCT cites Brs 1.2.292 in that section of Raga Vartma Candrika that I mentioned and he's being pretty clear there that's it comes from just those two sources. I'd expect him to include sastra there if it was a separate category. That's my impression, at least.
Krsna Caitanya Das - March 31, 2019 3:11 pm
1 hour ago, Vamsidas said:Wouldn't you just consider the scriptures to be a subset of Bhagavan or the raganuga bhakta?
I guess they could be considered a subset. I wasn't really trying to add a third item to the two put forward by VCT in Raga Vartma Candrika. I was just struck by the emphasis that Rupa Goswami, Jiva Goswami, and VCT all put on the scripture's role in awakening taste for and development of raga bhakti in verses 1.2.292 and 293 of Brs. and their comments on those verses.
On further contemplation, I do think that the sastra deserves some special mention as a vessel of the mercy of Bhagavan or devotee. In the version of Raga Vartma Chandrika I looked at, VCT mentioned that sastra meant SB and also books, such as, Brs. I know this is all obvious, but I still like to say it out loud (type it in a forum). Rupa Goswami's and VCT's glorification of and explanations of raga bhakti through their books are quite infectious. The SB and CC are also awesome vessels of the Lord's and the devotees' mercy. And we also have our GM's books and many, many other books available as well. All glories to these wonderful sastras! All glories to the mercy of Bhagavan and the raganuga bhaktas!
Madan Gopal Das - April 2, 2019 3:04 pm
On 3/29/2019 at 1:37 PM, krsna caitanya das said:"Ruchi, taste or desire, is here directed toward bhajan. One of the characteristics of this stage is that one develops a special or stronger taste for one particular devotional activity, such as hearing or chanting of either the Lord's name, form or qualities.
On 3/29/2019 at 1:00 PM, Vamsidas said:In Ananta das Babaji Maharaja's translation, it's rendered as "ruci means a special taste in every devotional part such as chanting, hearing, and so on." He adds the following in his commentary on this verse:
"ruci is related to bhajana. A special taste in each devotional part such as hearing, chanting, and so on of the Lord’s name, form, and qualities is known as ruci. When ruci awakens one never gets even slightly tired of repeated hearing and chanting, like before."
On 3/29/2019 at 3:00 PM, madan gopal das said:"At that time, the distinctive delight the sādhaka feels in performing one particular limb of bhakti over another is called ruci." - NM's Madhurya Kadambini
I was talking with Krsna Caitanya last night about this question from the references above whether the proper understanding of ruci is a taste for one or a more general taste for every devotional activity. My impression from reading these references was that when referring to one devotional activity, what is really meant is that the devotee in ruci moves away from the constant flow engagement (nistha) in bhakti angas in general to a focused taste (ruci) for the "one" practice named as three 😏 of hearing/chanting/remembering. This one practice is really just a focusing in like the top of a whirlpool of bhakti angas, and as one develops ruci the devotee focuses that practice to hearing/chanting/remembering in a more specific way, the whirlpool is closing in, circling faster and closer to being swept away.
Saying the above, I don't think that a devotee in ruci would necessarily ONLY do hearing/chanting/remembering and avoid other angas of bhakti, but in this sense hearing/chanting/remembering are the one universal anga of bhakti that pervades any and all devotional activities.
I think what set off our discussion of this one vs. every idea was mainly the first reference above where it is said "one develops a special or stronger taste for one particular devotional activity, such as hearing or chanting of either the Lord's name, form or qualities." But, I'm thinking that maybe the emphasis on the "one" is misplaced and we should be seeing the emphasis on the "stronger" or "special", which would imply that other devotional activities are going on, but with a more focused/taste induced attraction to hearing/chanting/remembering in a particular way that is fueling the devotee.
That is all my best guess at understanding this idea. Here are some supportive statements from ADB's Madhurya Kadambini:
QuoteAs in the nishtha stage, one is engaged continuously in devotional practices, but when ruchi awakens one never gets in the least weary of hearing and chanting. This ruchi creates a strong attachment to hearing and chanting within the devotee...
... At this stage, one never feels bored during chanting and hearing Hari katha.
Krsna Caitanya Das - April 11, 2019 4:02 pm
While reading NM's Bhajana Rahasya, Ch. 5, Text 5 [SB 7.5. 23-24 (śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ, etc.)], I came across the following in the commentary:
"According to Śrīla Sanātana Gosvāmī, the word puṁsā here indicates the māyā-baddha-jīva, conditioned living entity, who is attached to sense enjoyment. The words bhagavaty addhā refer to the instruction to perform service to the Supreme Lord that is stimulated by devotion that flows like a continuous stream of oil."
I'm still curious to find the origin of the stream of oil. Does anyone who has Sanatana Goswami's SB commentary feel like looking up his comments on 7.5.23-24? I don't have it, or I would have looked it up.
Madan Gopal Das - April 11, 2019 4:27 pm
17 minutes ago, krsna caitanya das said:I'm still curious to find the origin of the stream of oil. Does anyone who has Sanatana Goswami's SB commentary feel like looking up his comments on 7.5.23-24? I don't have it, or I would have looked it up.
I thought I had it, but when looking it up all I'm finding is VCT's commentary which Prabhupada mirrors in commenting on bhagavaty-addha to mean "directly" and playing that out to mean that pumsa (meaning man/woman/anyone/any jiva) should offer bhakti directly, without any consideration of karma/jnana:
VCT "Bhakti should be performed directly (addha), not with any prerequisite jnana or karma."
The origins of oil remain mysterious...
Madan Gopal Das - April 16, 2019 2:06 pm
Text 9
Madan Gopal Das - April 16, 2019 3:38 pm
Srila Sridhar Maharaj’s illumination here is a Brhad-bhagavatamrta-esque explanation of gradations of devotion:
QuoteBhuloka is where we are – the world of our experience, the world of our sense perception.
Bhuvah is the mental sphere. This physical sphere is only an outcome of that mental sphere. The present world of experience is the product of our previous mental impulses.
Svah means the plane of decision-making.
Bhu, Bhuvah, Svah, Mahar, Jana, Tapa and Satyaloka. The negative side includes these seven planes of life from Bhuloka up to Satyaloka where the creator, Lord Brahma, lives.
Then begins Viraja, the verge of the equilibrium of the negative side – the last limit of material consciousness and the highest position aspired for by the Buddhists. And the verge of equilibrium of the positive side is Brahmaloka, the beginning of the ‘Land of Service’ – the equipoised verge of the positive world aspired for by the Sankarites.
Then next is Sivaloka. On that side Sada-Siva is a devotee, and on this side there is Rudra.
After Sivaloka we find Vaikuntha...
Then there is Ayodhya with Ramacandra. Ayodhya is better than Vaikuntha. Why? In Ayodhya there is the first introduction of vatsalya-rasa. The variegated nature of ananda is not to be found in Vaikuntha. In Vaikuntha there is no father or mother of either Narayana or Laksmi-devi. But vatsalya-rasa, sakhya-rasa and madhurya-rasa in the real sense may not be found there in Ayodhya.
Dvaraka is between Ayodhya and Mathura. Madhurya-rasa is also there in Dvaraka, but it is not fully represented. From Dvaraka we come to Mathura-mandala. There we find Krsna to be more comprehensive, more free, an autocrat, and free from the contamination of grandeur and politics.
By the measurement of rasa, Mathura holds a superior position because the rasa is more variegated there.
Vrndavana is above Dvaraka and Mathura. In Dvaraka and Mathura Krsna is a political man. The Krsna of Mathura is different to the Krsna of Vrndavana. We must always remember this. In Vrndavana there is free love, free faith.
There are some beautiful quotes throughout this illumination that very clearly explain the feeling of these places and the most confidential and devotionally complete status of Radha-kunda.
Madan Gopal Das - April 17, 2019 1:31 pm
QuoteKrsna in Vrndavana differs from Krsna in Govardhana. In Vrndavana there is free mixing by Krsna without any hesitation in connection with other camps of the Gopis. That is a general rasa-lila. At Govardhana there are only selected groups – both the camp of Radharani and Candravali are to be found there. But our need is the exclusive group – the group of Radharani.
Radha-kunda is only for the selected group of Radharani, not for any other. The highest conception of Krsna is at Radha-kunda.
Madan Gopal Das - April 18, 2019 12:53 pm
QuoteThe land of dedication begins from Vaikuntha and ends in Vrndavana. Vaikuntha is calculative and Vrndavana is spontaneous and irresistible. Raghunatha dasa Goswami says that if we have too much attraction for the laws of vaidhi-bhakti and sastrika rules, we will be thrown down into the paravyoma, to Vaikuntha. Then we won’t be able to keep up our position in Vrndavana where everything is spontaneous. We won’t be allowed to take our position in the land of freedom, where spontaneous love is the queen and is regulating the whole thing. She will throw us down to Vaikuntha – “Go there! Do your duty according to scripture, according to calculation created by grandeur, awe and reverence. Go there! Only the simple, plain, spontaneous, hearty service of the Lord reigns here in Vrndavana and we are in the midst of that thing. We do not care for any other thing, only for the object of our love. That is our guide, that is our sastra, that is everything. We do not know anything more and we do not want to know anything more.”
No necessity of any scriptural direction is found in Vrndavana. My direction is Krsna – what law will come in between? A law will say, “Oh, you only did this much, so don’t go this way.”Therefore Vaikuntha is to be eliminated, and even Ayodhya and Dvaraka. Elimination of the highest is going on cautiously and with reverence. “What can I do? My fate is connected in Vrndavana. My inner hankering is for that type of service – forgive me.”
In our position we must try to give some respect – pujala raga-patha gaurava-bhange. We should always keep that on our heads. We shall roam about in the sastrika area; but our gurus, our superiors, our aspiration, should always be kept on our heads.
🙂