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Additional Implications regarding Fallvada

Swami B.V. Padmanabha - December 9, 2018 3:18 pm

Pranama unto all.

During this very first visit to Saragrahi (and due to some new recent threads and expositions here and there), Guru Maharaja and other senior Vaisnavas have been quite engaged in going around the topic of falling from Vaikuntha, presenting newer and newer perspectives and implications coming from it. So here I´m sharing one little first part from one summary of those topics that Dulal Candra prabhu shared with some of us, so whoever may like to contribute may continue expanding of how these type of apasiddhantas may eventually lead to more delicate stances regarding the development of our bhakti:

"It is as much or more about where the sadhaka is going as it is where the baddha jiva came from. If in Goloka one is subject to the possibility of repeated birth and death, then Goloka is not categorically different from any material planet. And if this were true, what impetus then does one have to go there as opposed to anywhere else? Furthermore, if Krsna's devotees in Goloka can loose interest in him or become opposed to him, how is he the supreme enjoyer? His enjoyment is entirely in relation to his devotees. He does not enjoy or taste rasa alone. So if one of the elements of his enjoyment leaves the party, his enjoyment is adversely affected and he would not be "all attractive" or should not go by the name "Krsna." So this idea that prema bhaktas can of lose interest in him is offensive to him. And if one thinks that any aspect of Krsna's dhama is subject to temporality, one commits dhama aparadha and thus impedes one's ability to go there. Similarly, if one think Krsna's eternal associates are subject to offending and rejecting him, one also commits dhama aparadha by way of criticizing its residents. The whole idea is about a philosophically wrong-headed as one could get."

🙏

Gauravani Dasa - December 9, 2018 5:12 pm

Dandavats, Maharaja.

Thank you for bringing up this topic and sharing Dulal's thoughts. I agree and find it baffling how anyone could support the idea that a siddha could fall. From the perspective of tattva, a fall requires avidya, which is simply not possible in the lila. Why try to go there if you might still be subject to aviyda and samsara? I like what Dulal brought out here in terms of the bhava side of the argument: Krishna could not tolerate one of his prema bhaktas falling, and further, he cannot even tolerate the idea that they could.

Another point that fall-vadis bring up is related to something that Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura mentions: "the tathastha region." I am not completely familiar with what Bhaktivinoda says in this regard, but some argue that there is a region where the jiva can decide between the spiritual and material worlds. I find this idea hard to support because if it is a true choice, the jiva must be well-informed about the choice. If the jiva is well-aware of the lila, just like the argument above, why the heck would the jiva choose the material world? In fact, it seems better to assume that anytime a jiva chooses the material world, avidya is involved are therefore it is not a fully-informed choice. That would seem to apply in a theoretical "tathastha region" and in the daily life of an anistha-bhakta whose sambandha jnana is ongoing but not yet complete.

Atmananda Dasa - December 9, 2018 5:14 pm

Proposal: fallvada = Māyāvāda 

In the Māyāvāda it is said that the Atma is in a “fallen” type of condition. Like a reflection of the infinite in a finite container, subject to the illusion of being finite. The fault in this conception is in part that the supreme Brahman is portrayed as being subject to illusion, i.e. not supreme. The fallvada appears to offer a similar faulty conception in proposing that the svarupa shakti under which the nityasiddha jiva has shelter somehow becomes overwhelmed by the maya shakti and the nityasiddha jiva falls into illusion. If this were true then the maya shakti would be all powerful and supreme, and the svarupa shakti would not have the ability to grant mukti. 

One might then argue that it is not that the maya shakti is overwhelming the svarupa shakti but it is the minute independence of the nityasiddha jiva that is selecting to leave the shelter of the svarupa shakti and come under the influence of the maya shakti. 

While it is not denied that the jiva has free will, that free will is limited. We would need to consider that in the case of the nityasiddha jiva the svarupa shakti is keeping the jiva in connection with the supreme all attractive. If the nityasiddha jiva were to then choose come under the influence of the maya shakti, effectively overcoming the all attractive supreme person and svarupa shakti then either the free will of the jiva would have to be supremely powerful or the maya shakti would have to be a more powerfully attractive force than both Krishna and his svarupa shakti. If the free will of the jiva had such power then the jiva could necessarily achieve mukti by the force of its free will alone independent of the svarupa shakti. 

Swami B.V. Padmanabha - December 9, 2018 5:55 pm

41 minutes ago, Gauravani dasa said:

Dandavats, Maharaja.

Thank you for bringing up this topic and sharing Dulal's thoughts. I agree and find it baffling how anyone could support the idea that a siddha could fall. From the perspective of tattva, a fall requires avidya, which is simply not possible in the lila. Why try to go there if you might still be subject to aviyda and samsara? I like what Dulal brought out here in terms of the bhava side of the argument: Krishna could not tolerate one of his prema bhaktas falling, and further, he cannot even tolerate the idea that they could.

Another point that fall-vadis bring up is related to something that Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura mentions: "the tathastha region." I am not completely familiar with what Bhaktivinoda says in this regard, but some argue that there is a region where the jiva can decide between the spiritual and material worlds. I find this idea hard to support because if it is a true choice, the jiva must be well-informed about the choice. If the jiva is well-aware of the lila, just like the argument above, why the heck would the jiva choose the material world? In fact, it seems better to assume that anytime a jiva chooses the material world, avidya is involved are therefore it is not a fully-informed choice. That would seem to apply in a theoretical "tathastha region" and in the daily life of an anistha-bhakta whose sambandha jnana is ongoing but not yet complete.

Actually these words have been compiled by Dulal Candra prabhu from a FB thread on fallvada, but the author of them is Guru Maharaja. 

Swami B.V. Padmanabha - December 10, 2018 12:15 am

Atmananda Dasa - December 10, 2018 1:41 am

10 hours ago, Swami B.V. Padmanabha said:

Pranama unto all.

During this very first visit to Saragrahi (and due to some new recent threads and expositions here and there), Guru Maharaja and other senior Vaisnavas have been quite engaged in going around the topic of falling from Vaikuntha, presenting newer and newer perspectives and implications coming from it. So here I´m sharing one little first part from one summary of those topics that Dulal Candra prabhu shared with some of us, so whoever may like to contribute may continue expanding of how these type of apasiddhantas may eventually lead to more delicate stances regarding the development of our bhakti:

"It is as much or more about where the sadhaka is going as it is where the baddha jiva came from. If in Goloka one is subject to the possibility of repeated birth and death, then Goloka is not categorically different from any material planet. And if this were true, what impetus then does one have to go there as opposed to anywhere else? Furthermore, if Krsna's devotees in Goloka can loose interest in him or become opposed to him, how is he the supreme enjoyer? His enjoyment is entirely in relation to his devotees. He does not enjoy or taste rasa alone. So if one of the elements of his enjoyment leaves the party, his enjoyment is adversely affected and he would not be "all attractive" or should not go by the name "Krsna." So this idea that prema bhaktas can of lose interest in him is offensive to him. And if one thinks that any aspect of Krsna's dhama is subject to temporality, one commits dhama aparadha and thus impedes one's ability to go there. Similarly, if one think Krsna's eternal associates are subject to offending and rejecting him, one also commits dhama aparadha by way of criticizing its residents. The whole idea is about a philosophically wrong-headed as one could get."

🙏

I happen to be reading VCT's SB commentary tonight and came across the wonderful passage that adds support to Dulal Chandra's words above:

SB 10.14.32

aho bhāgyam aho bhāgyaṁ
 nanda-gopa-vrajaukasām
yan-mitraṁ paramānandaṁ
 pūrṇaṁ brahma sanātanam

Synonyms: 

aho — what great; bhāgyam — fortune; aho — what great; bhāgyam — fortune; nanda — of Mahārāja Nanda; gopa— of the other cowherd men; vraja-okasām — of the inhabitants of Vrajabhūmi; yat — of whom; mitram — the friend; parama-ānandam — the supreme bliss; pūrṇam — complete; brahma — the Absolute Truth; sanātanam — eternal.

Translation: 

How greatly fortunate are Nanda Mahārāja, the cowherd men and all the other inhabitants of Vrajabhūmi! There is no limit to their good fortune, because the Absolute Truth, the source of transcendental bliss, the eternal Supreme Brahman, has become their friend.

Visvanatha Chakravarti Thakura: [...] Krishna is the friend (Mitra), but not a temporary friend. Krishna is the eternal friend (sanataria) of Sridama and others (yat). From this eternal friendship [... Friends Forever!!! ... (this is my addition here)] it is also understood that Sridama and others are also eternal. If I make a statement "He is an excellent brahmana because his brahminical qualities are excellent," that person's excellence is also understood. Similarly in speaking of the eternality of Krishna's friendship, the friends are also understood to be eternal. This must be explained since the word Mitra connotes simply an ordinary friend. 

All the inhabitants of Vrindavana ruled by Nanda Maharaja (nanda gopa vrajaukasam) down to the birds and beasts were fortunate. What then to speak of Nanda himself and his cowherd men? Who can describe the forture of those who became the friend of paramanandam brahma sanatanam? It is indescribable.

The gopas themselves say, "O Nanda! Everyone in Vraja has uncontrollable attraction to your son, and He has natural affection for us. What is the cause?" (SB 10.26.13) The cause is that Krishna is purnam brahma, the complete absolute truth. Therefore, the inhabitants of Vraja give the topmost bliss to Krishna, and receive the topmost bliss in return. Witnessing this exchange of love, Lord Brahma repeats the phrase Aho bhagyam twice to indicate His extreme bliss and astonishment.

Atmananda Dasa - December 10, 2018 1:59 am

Here is the verse quoted above in the VCT's commentary as well as a portion of his commentary on that verse:

SB 10.26.13

dustyajaś cānurāgo ’smin
 sarveṣāṁ no vrajaukasām
nanda te tanaye ’smāsu
 tasyāpy autpattikaḥ katham

Synonyms: 

dustyajaḥ — impossible to give up; ca — and; anurāgaḥ — loving affection; asmin — for Him; sarveṣām — on the part of all; naḥ — us; vraja-okasām — the residents of Vraja; nanda — dear Nanda Mahārāja; te — your; tanaye — for the son; asmāsu — toward us; tasya — on His part; api — also; autpattikaḥ — natural; katham — how.

Translation: 

Dear Nanda, how is it that we and all the other residents of Vraja cannot give up our constant affection for your son? And how is it that He is so spontaneously attracted to us?

The wonderful activities of the child were given as evidence to prove that Krishna is God. In this verse the cowherd men speak to show how they are all united in their devotional feelings towards Krishna.

They said, "Though Krishna is your child not ours, our loving affection (anuragah) toward Him is very strong. We have parental affection for Him, the boys have brotherly love for Him, and all the male and female birds and forest animals have strong affection for Krishna too. In all cases that affection is increasing in newer ways at every moment. Our attraction is natural and we cannot give it up, even though we now see that Krishna has the qualities of God. [...]

Dulal Chandra Dasa - December 11, 2018 7:29 am

This quote is from a post Guru Maharaja made, not something I wrote.

Swami B.V. Padmanabha - December 11, 2018 3:20 pm

Here I share another two of Guru Maharaja´s quotes on the topic:

"To get there (Vaikuntha) in the first place one has to exercise one'e will by so desiring at the exclusion of all other desires. Once one has done that and resides completely under the influence of Krsna's internal energy that functions only for his pleasure, the will of the jiva also functions only in relation to the environment afforded by that internal energy. The will of the liberated devotees is termed satya sankalpa in sastra (Vs 4.4.9). This means that because the liberated devotee's will only functions for the pleasure of Krsna, it is always fulfilled, just as Krsna's will is always fulfilled by his svarupa sakti. Muktas can exercise will only in relation to serving Bhagavan, and that is a status they have strived to achieve over lifetimes of sadhana. They have chosen to love him exclusively and his internal sakti has granted them the fulfillment of their one-pointed desire. 

Furthermore, will does not function in a vacuum. It requires an environment in which to make choices. In Brahman there are no choices. In the material world there are and also in the spiritual world. The choices are provided by the maya and svarupa saktis respectfully. However, there is a difference. Bhakti also functions within the maya sakti without being under her influence. Thus in the material world we can come in touch with her and choose exclusive devotion. But in the spiritual world maya sakti, as you have noted, is not present. Thus the only choice one has therein is to serve Krsna in an unlimited variety of ways. Indeed, the very faculty of one's material memory—citta—has been overwritten by impressions of bhakti rasa. Thank God!"

&

"Again, this statement—"We were put into the dream state in Mahavisnu after we chose to forget our service to Krishna"— is so bizarre, what to speak of making it in the context of chastising ME for "mental speculation" because I did not know it!! But the clear implication of it is that the infinite number of jivas in susupti that populate the multiverse ALL fell first from Vaikuntha! All souls in the material world, of which there is an infinite number, fell from Goloka or Vaikuntha. Once more, every baddha jiva in existence fell from the spiritual world and then was placed into susupti before entering material existence. ! WOW! Apparently its not a rare event in the spiritual world. So much for Krsna being all attractive."

🙏

Gauravani Dasa - December 13, 2018 10:48 am

I was recently reading in Sri Sri Preyo-Bhakti Rasarnava about how the gopas panic when Krishna disappears for a brief moment. It is the same for the gopis. If we assume for a moment that a jiva's mind could wander to contemplate life without Krishna, the jiva could do so when Krishna steps away for a moment. But that is not what happens in the lila. Separation makes their heart grow fonder! There is simply no example of a fall in the lila, other than Jaya and Vijaya, which is technically not really a fall in terms of their desire to be separate from or stop serving Krishna/Narayana. Perhaps another opportunity to fall would be when Krishna leaves Vraja. But, again, there is no example of that happening and, again, it is quite the opposite of a fall.

Swami B.V. Padmanabha - December 13, 2018 2:45 pm

In this regard, here´s a very interesting Bhagavata verse where we can find a clear statement about the superiority of svarupa-saktyananda over Krishna´s own svarupananda:

|| 9.4.64 ||
naham atmanam asase mad-bhaktaih sadhubhir vina 

sriyam catyantikim brahman yesam gatir aham para

"O brahmana! Without the devotees, who take shelter of only me, I do not desire to enjoy my own bliss and my six great qualities."

/ Sri Visvanatha Cakravarti´s tika:

“How much are the devotees your object of affection?” Listen. I am called atmarama because I enjoy. But I do not desire that enjoyment (atmanam) without the devotees. More than my own bliss from my svarupa, I desire the bliss of the svarupa of my devotees. Though both of us have spiritual forms, but the mature forms of the spiritual function called mercy exists in the bhakti within the devotee, since it is the essence of the cit-sakti, it gives bliss even to my svarupa, and attracts my svarupa. I eternally possess my six great qualities but, without the devotees, I consider these to be barren. I am the one object (gatir) of those devotees." 

Atmananda Dasa - December 13, 2018 2:47 pm

Quote

Perhaps another opportunity to fall would be when Krishna leaves Vraja. But, again, there is no example of that happening and, again, it is quite the opposite of a fall.

Quote

 

SB 10.14.37

prapañcaṁ niṣprapañco ’pi
 viḍambayasi bhū-tale
prapanna-janatānanda-
 sandohaṁ prathituṁ prabho

Synonyms: 

prapañcam — that which is material; niṣprapañcaḥ — completely transcendental to material existence; api — although; viḍambayasi — You imitate; bhū-tale — on the surface of the earth; prapanna — who are surrendered; janatā — of people; ānanda-sandoham — the great variety of different kinds of ecstasies; prathitum — in order to spread; prabho — O master.

Translation: 

My dear master, although You have nothing to do with material existence, You come to this earth and imitate material life just to expand the varieties of ecstatic enjoyment for Your surrendered devotees.

Commentary of of Visvanatha Cakravartī Trhakura:

Some think that the purna-brahma becoming the son of Nanda Maharaja in Vraja cannot be real or absolute, and that the devotees who accept this are in illusion. In reply to this Brahma recites this verse: "Though You are always beyond the influence of material nature, You are ever situated within the material world. You assume forms and relationships similar to those found in the material world, but Your relationships are not false and temporary like those of material fathers and sons. Your forms and relationships are completely transcendental and eternally existing. Though Your pastimes are eternal and transcendental, they appear similar to material activities. Why do You need to imitate material activities? You appear in the material would to further increase the bliss that Your devotees taste from relishing Your pastimes."

Just as a lamp does not shine as brightly in sunlight as it does in the shade, or as a diamond does not look as brilliant on a silver platter as it does on a plate of blue glass, Govinda's pastimes do not appear as astonishing in Vaikuntha as they do in the material world. 

 

This is just to further support your point above Gauravani. "It is quite the opposite of a fall."

When planed next to the Maya shakti Krishna's pastimes actually become even more attractive! 

Kishore Krishna Das - December 13, 2018 2:58 pm

I was speaking with Vrindaranya recently about the quote of Jiva or Sanatana Goswami, that the sadhana siddhas are more glorious because their faith is tested (not sure where quote is from).  But this statement is nice evidence that those in Krishna Lila are never tested by Maya.

edit: the commentary is by Sanatana Goswami (Brhad Bhagavatamrita v1, ch 3, verse 84): "His eternal associates are ever established in unswerving devotion, they underwent no tribulations to gain it, whereas his "new" devotees in the material world have sacrificed all comforts and security to gain pure devotional service.  For the trouble such devotees have taken, Lord Krishna is especially grateful."

Swami B.V. Padmanabha - December 13, 2018 3:36 pm

48 minutes ago, Atmananda dasa said:

This is just to further support your point above Gauravani. "It is quite the opposite of a fall."

When planed next to the Maya shakti Krishna's pastimes actually become even more attractive! 

CC Madhya 21.101

Atmananda Dasa - December 13, 2018 5:07 pm

On 12/11/2018 at 10:20 AM, Swami B.V. Padmanabha said:

Here I share another two of Guru Maharaja´s quotes on the topic:

"To get there (Vaikuntha) in the first place one has to exercise one'e will by so desiring at the exclusion of all other desires. Once one has done that and resides completely under the influence of Krsna's internal energy that functions only for his pleasure, the will of the jiva also functions only in relation to the environment afforded by that internal energy. The will of the liberated devotees is termed satya sankalpa in sastra (Vs 4.4.9). This means that because the liberated devotee's will only functions for the pleasure of Krsna, it is always fulfilled, just as Krsna's will is always fulfilled by his svarupa sakti. Muktas can exercise will only in relation to serving Bhagavan, and that is a status they have strived to achieve over lifetimes of sadhana. They have chosen to love him exclusively and his internal sakti has granted them the fulfillment of their one-pointed desire. 

Furthermore, will does not function in a vacuum. It requires an environment in which to make choices. In Brahman there are no choices. In the material world there are and also in the spiritual world. The choices are provided by the maya and svarupa saktis respectfully. However, there is a difference. Bhakti also functions within the maya sakti without being under her influence. Thus in the material world we can come in touch with her and choose exclusive devotion. But in the spiritual world maya sakti, as you have noted, is not present. Thus the only choice one has therein is to serve Krsna in an unlimited variety of ways. Indeed, the very faculty of one's material memory—citta—has been overwritten by impressions of bhakti rasa. Thank God!"

&

"Again, this statement—"We were put into the dream state in Mahavisnu after we chose to forget our service to Krishna"— is so bizarre, what to speak of making it in the context of chastising ME for "mental speculation" because I did not know it!! But the clear implication of it is that the infinite number of jivas in susupti that populate the multiverse ALL fell first from Vaikuntha! All souls in the material world, of which there is an infinite number, fell from Goloka or Vaikuntha. Once more, every baddha jiva in existence fell from the spiritual world and then was placed into susupti before entering material existence. ! WOW! Apparently its not a rare event in the spiritual world. So much for Krsna being all attractive."

🙏

Quoted above is Vs 4.4.9 Here is the text of this verse along with the commentary of Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana

Adhikarana 6
The Supreme Lord is the Master of the Liberated Souls

Introduction by Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana

Now the author the sutras will show that the liberated soul, whose every desire is fulfilled, takes shelter of the Supreme Personality of Godhead alone.

Samsaya (doubt): Is the liberated soul subject to the orders of anyone other than the Supreme Personality of Godhead, or is the soul not subject to the orders of anyone other than the Supreme Personality of Godhead>

Purvapaksa (the opponent speaks): As a person who enters a king's palace must obey the orders of many people there, so the liberated soul who has entered the palace of the Supreme Personality of Godhead must also obey the orders of many others.

Siddhanta (conclusion): In the following words the author of the sutras gives His conclusion.

Sutra 9

ata eva cananyadhipatih
atah eva therefore; ca also; ananya

Therefore there is no other master.

Purport by Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana

without another; adhipatih master.

Because (atah), by the grace of the Supreme Personality of Godhead all the liberated soul s desires are at once fulfilled, the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the liberated soul's only master (ananyadhipatih). There is no other master for him. Taking shelter of the Supreme Lord, the liberated soul shines with great splendor. If this were not so then there would be no difference between the liberated soul and the soul trapped in the world of repeated birth and death.

By worshiping the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the liberated soul attains the condition where his every desire is at once fulfilled. Feeling merciful to him, the Supreme Lord gives limitless transcendental bliss to the soul who thus takes shelter of Him. In this way the Lord becomes very pleased. That the Lord thus fills the liberated soul with bliss will be explained in sutra 4.4.20. It has already been demonstrated that the individual spirit soul is part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and the Supreme Lord is the supreme controller and enjoyer.

Because the liberated soul is in a position where his every desire is at once fulfilled, his only master is the Supreme Lord. He has no other master. For this reason ordinary prescribed duties and prohibitions no longer apply to him. If they did apply to him he would no longer be in a position where his every desire is at once fulfilled. This view is held by some philosophers.

Atmananda Dasa - December 13, 2018 5:46 pm

Below is a portion of the vedanta sutra in which the liberated soul's relationship with the material world is discussed. It is lengthy but still valuable and directly addresses the issue. It comes as part of a discussion about wether or not the liberated soul, being satya sankalpa also has the ability to create a material universe. (As far as I have understood)

Quote

 

Here someone may object: In Taittiriya Upanisad 1.5.3) it is said:

sarve 'smai deva balim avahanti

"All the demigods bring offerings to him."

Also, in Chandogya Upanisad (7.25.2) it is said:

sa svarad bhavati tasya sarvesu lokesu kama-caro bhavati

"He is independent. He can go to any world."

In this way it is seen that because he is worshiped by all the demigods, and because he has all extraordinary powers, the liberated soul can certainly create material universes.

If this is said, then the author of the sutras gives the following reply.

Sutra 18

pratyaksopadesan neti cen nadhikarika-mandalasyokteh

pratyaksa direct; upadesat because of the teaching; na not; iti thus; cet
if; na not; adhikarika of great leaders; mandalasya of the circle; ukteh from the statement.

Someone may say: "No. It is not so. Because there is a direct teaching," If this is said, I reply: "No. What you say is not true. Because those texts describe great leaders."

Purport by Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana

Here someone may say, "It is not correct to say that the liberated souls have no power to create material universes, for many passages of the Sruti-sastra directly describe that power." If this is said, then the author of the sutra replies, "No. It is not so." Why not> The sutra explains, "adhikarika-mandalasyokteh" (Because those texts describe great leaders). These texts explain how, by the mercy of the Supreme Lord, the liberated soul can travel to the planets of the great demigods, such as that of the four-faced Brahma, and enjoy many pleasures there. In this way it is said that the great liberated souls, such as 1rada Muni and the four Kumaras can travel to the planets of the demigods, and when the do the demigods there honor them with great respect.

These passages of the Upanisad mean in truth that by the Supreme Lord's mercy the liberated souls can travel to many different worlds and feel pleasure by seeing the Lord's glories and opulences there. These passages should not be wrongly interpreted to mean that the individual spirit soul has the power to create material universes.

Here someone may object: If the liberated soul is thus an enjoyer of various material pleasures, then he is not different from a conditioned soul, for all material pleasures must come to an end.

If this is said, then the author of the sutras gives the following reply.

Sutra 19

vikaravarti ca tatha hi sthitim aha

vikara the changes ofmaterial existence; a not; varti existing; ca and; tatha so; hi because; sthitim situation; aha says.

Furthermore it is changeless, for it describes that condition.

Purport by Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana

The word "vikara" here refers to the six kinds of transformation, beginning with birth, that are present in the material world. These transformations do not effect the liberated soul. Neither do these transformations affect the supremely pure Personality of Godhead, his transcendental abode, or anything else that has transcendental qualities like those of the Supreme Lord. Aware of what is the truth about all these worlds, the liberated soul may observe them but he does not really reside in them. The word "hi" in this sutra means, "because". The true nature ofthe liberated soul is described (sthitim aha) in the following words of KathaUpanisad (2.2.1):

puram ekadasa-dvaram ajasyavakra-cetasah

anusthaya na socati vimuktas ca vimucyate

"Although he resides in the city of eleven gates, the city of the unborn and pure-hearted Supreme, he does not lament. He is free. He is liberated."

Although his spiritual form seems to be covered, the soul enlightened with transcendental knowledge is liberated in truth. Although he seems to reside in the world of the three modes, he is liberated. That is the meaning of this verse. In these two ways he is liberated. He has directly attained the goal of life. The covering of material life is like a garland of clouds. It covers the eyes of the conditioned souls, but it does not cover the Supreme Personality of Godhead. In Sruti-sastra it is said:

vilajjamanaya yasyasthatum iksa-pathe 'muya

vimohita vikantthante mamaham iti durdhiyah

"The illusory energy of the Lord cannot take precedence, being ashamed of her position. But those who are bewildered by her always talk nonsense, being absorbed in thoughts of It is I' and It is mine'."*

Therefore the clouds (of material illusion) can never really cover the sun (of the Supreme Personality of Godhead).

 

Atmananda Dasa - December 13, 2018 6:28 pm

I know this is really lengthy but it is the statement of Vedanta Sutra that deals directly with the subject and the reasoning and quotations presented here by Baladeva Vidyabhusana are dealing directly with the discussion. 

Quote

 

Adhikarana 11
The Liberated Soul Never Returns

Introduction by Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana

Now will be explained the truth that the liberated soul has the association of the Supreme Personality of Godhead eternally

Visaya (the subject to be discussed): All scriptural statements describing the soul's entrance into the spiritual realm of the Supreme Lord are here the subject of

discussson.

Samsaya (doubt): Does the liberated soul stay in the spiritual world eternally, or does he not stay there eternally?

Purvapaksa (the opponent speaks): The spiritual world is a place like Svargaloka or any other place. As one may fall down from Svargaloka, so one may also fall down from the spiritual world. Therefore the liberated soul does not necessarily stay in the spiritual world eternally.

Siddhanta (conclusion): In the following words the author of the sutras gives His conclusion.

Sutra 22

anavrttih sabdad anavrttih sabdat

an without; avrttih return; sabdat because of bthe scriptures.

No return, because of the scriptures. No return, because of the scriptures.

Purport by Srila Baladeva Vidyabhusana

A devotee who faithfully worships and serves the Supreme Lord and then goes to the Lord's spiritual world, never returns. How is that known> The sutra
explains, "sabdat" (because of the scriptures). In the Chandogya Upanisad (4.15.6)it is said:

etena pratipadyamana imam manavam avartam navartante

"They who enter the spiritual world never return to the world of men."

In the Chandogya Upanisad (4.15.1) it is said:

sa khalv eva vartayan yavad ayusam brahmalokam abhisampadyate. na ca punar avartate.

"Leaving this life, he enters the spiritual world. He never returns." In the Bhagavad-gita (8.15 and 16) Lord Krsna declares:

mam upetya punar janma duhkhalayam asasvatam

napnuvanti mahatmanah samsiddhim paramam gatah

"After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogis in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection.*

a-brahma-bhuvanal lokah punar avartino 'rjuna

mam upetya tu kaunteya punar janma na vidyate

"From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are

places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains My abode, 0 son of Kunti, never takes birth again."*

In the Bhagavad-gita (8.15 and 16) Lord Krsna also declares:

Here someone may express the following fear: Lord Hari is all-powerful, the master of all, perhaps at some point in time He may throw the liberated soul out of the spiritual world. Or perhaps the liberated soul may at some time voluntarily leave the spiritual world.

There is no need to fear in this way, for Lord Krsna has explained in Bhagavad-gita (7.17):

priyo hi jnanino tv artham aham sa ca mama priyah

"of these, the wise one who is in full knowledge in union with Me through

devotional service is the best. For I am very dear to him, and he is very dear toMe."*

Lord Krsna also declares in Srima-Bhagavatam (9.4.68):

sadhavo hrdayam mahyam sadhunam hrdayam tv aham

"The pure devotee is always in the core of My heart, and I am always in the

heart of the pure devotee. My devotees do not know anything else but Me, and I do not know anyone else but them."*

In these words the mutual love of the Lord and His devotee is described.

In Srimad-Bhagavatam (9.4.65) Lord Krsna declares:

ye daragara-putraptan
pranan vittam imam param

hitva mam saranam yatah katham tams tyaktum utsahe

"Since pure devotees give up their homes, wives, children, relatives, riches, and even their lives simply to serve Me, without any material improvement in this life or in the next, how can I give up such devotees at any time>"*

In Srimad-Bhagavatam (2.8.6) it is also said:

dhautatma purusah krsna- pada-mulam na muncati

mukta-sarva-pariklesah panthah sva-saranam yatha

"A pure devotee of the Lord whose heart has once been cleansed by the process of devotional service never relinquishes the lotus feet of Lord Krsna, for they fully satisfy him, as a traveler is satisfied at home after a troubled journey."*

In this way the scriptures explain that the Supreme Personality of Godhead will never abandon His devotee and the devotee will always ardently love the Supreme Personality of Godhead. The Supreme Personality of Godhead is always truthful and His desires are always at once fulfilled. He is an ocean of love for they who take shelter of Him. He washes away the ignorance that made His devotees turn from Him. Once He brings back to Himself His dear devotees, who are His parts and parcels, the Supreme Personality of Godhead will not again let them go.

In the same way the individual soul, who had been searching for happiness and who finally has turned from the pathetic, wretched, pale reflection of happiness he had for many births sought in the material world in many ways, and who now, by the mercy of the bona-fide spiritual master has understood the truth of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, of whom he is a part and parcel, who now has no desire apart from the Supreme Lord, who is now purely engaged in devotional service to the Supreme Lord, and who has now attained the Supreme Lord, whose spiritual form is filled with limitless bliss, and who is the merciful friend and master, will never desire to leave such a Lord. In this way the truth is understood from the scriptures. This truth is understood only by taking shelter of the scriptures. The words of the sutra are repeated to indicate the conclusion of thebook.

Epilogue

samuddhrtya yo duhkha-pankat sva-bhaktan nayaty acyutas cit-sukhe dhamni nitye

priyan gadha-ragat tilardham vimoktum na svecchaty asav eva su-jnair nisevyah

Let the wise worship and serve Lord Govinda, the infallible Supreme
Personality of Godhead, who lifts his devotees from the mud of material sufferings, takes them to His eternal and blissful spiritual abode, and out of deep love for
them will not leave them for even half a moment.

 

Atmananda Dasa - December 13, 2018 7:01 pm

The above are translations of Vedanta Sutra by Kusha Krata. I think it is worth noting that there are other translations and after examining the translation by Banu Swami of the above final adhikarana this difference really stood out to me: "Once He brings back to Himself His dear devotees, who are His parts and parcels, the Supreme Personality of Godhead will not again let them go." comes out like this in Banu Swami's translation: "...destroying avidya, the cause of turning away from him, in his devotees who have given up everything for him, brings these devotees, his most dear amsas, close to him and never gives them up."

Shyamananda Das - December 13, 2018 9:44 pm

Guru Maharaja has pointed out before that Kusakrata Prabhu's translations are not reliable when it comes to philosophy.

Atmananda Dasa - December 14, 2018 6:23 pm

20 hours ago, Shyamananda das said:

Guru Maharaja has pointed out before that Kusakrata Prabhu's translations are not reliable when it comes to philosophy.

Thanks. This is important to know. 

Swami B.V. Padmanabha - December 17, 2018 12:42 pm

Swami B.V. Padmanabha - December 17, 2018 12:48 pm

And another clear reference from Bhagavata in this regard (with Visvanatha´s comment):

Krsna Caitanya Das - December 18, 2018 7:13 pm

In honor of Gita Jayanti, I thought I might throw out some Bhagavad Gita verses that support the idea of not falling from the spiritual world:

Bg 4.9 — One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna.

Bg 8.15 — After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogīs in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection.

Bg 8.16 — From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again.

Bg 15.6 — That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world. 

Would all of these be considered good evidence?

Are there other Bhagavad-gita verses that could be used as support?

Krsna Caitanya Das - December 18, 2018 7:25 pm

On another note, I have noticed that the belief in fallvada can lead to a devotee not having very much interest in developing sambanda-jnana. They think that their relationship with Krishna is something that existed before and will be uncovered through chanting alone. Some are concerned that if they learn too much, they might imagine the wrong relationship with Krishna. It can actually lead devotees to be against learning the philosophy. I have seen this kind of mood sometimes. 

Dulal Chandra Dasa - December 18, 2018 7:36 pm

This verse and commentary from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam by Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura speaks to the significance of sambanda-jnana.

Swami B.V. Padmanabha - December 18, 2018 7:55 pm

15 minutes ago, Dulal Chandra dasa said:

This verse and commentary from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam by Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura speaks to the significance of sambanda-jnana.

In another part of his Sarartha Darsini, Visvanatha even mentioned that hearing lilas of the Lord connected to his maya-sakti (purusavataras, etc.) being a baddha-jiva is as good as hearing rasa-lila in the liberated stage. I cannot give the exact reference now (I´m in the airport about to fly) but I think he´s trying to make the same point Dulal Candra prabhu mentioned above: if you want to derive full benefit from pastimes such as rasa-lila, first you need to learn how to fully extract the different implied meanings present in saktis such as material energy, and the lilas (exchanges) connected to it.

Dulal Chandra Dasa - December 18, 2018 8:38 pm

Swami Padmanabha, if you can find or know which canto. That would be a great quote to locate.

Your servant,
Dulal Chandra dasa
 

Swami B.V. Padmanabha - December 18, 2018 8:47 pm

6 minutes ago, Dulal Chandra dasa said:

Swami Padmanabha, if you can find or know which canto. That would be a great quote to locate.

Your servant,
Dulal Chandra dasa
 

Sorry, I made a mistake. It was Srila Prabhupada who mentioned this (and not Visvanatha), interestingly in his purport to the very same verse Dulal Candra prabhu quoted above (Bhagavata 2.7.53):

"The science of learning a subject matter seriously is different from the sentiments of fanatics. Fanatics or fools may consider the Lord’s activities in relation with the external energy to be useless for them, and they may falsely claim to be higher participants in the internal energy of the Lord, but factually the Lord’s activities in relation with the external energy and the internal energy are equally good. On the other hand, those who are not completely free from the clutches of the Lord’s external energy should devoutly hear regularly about the activities of the Lord in relation with the external energy. They should not foolishly jump up to the activities of the Lord’s internal energy, falsely attracted by such activities as His rāsa-līlā. The cheap reciters of the Bhāgavatam are very much enthusiastic about the activities of the Lord’s internal potency, and the pseudodevotees, absorbed in material sense enjoyment, falsely jump to the stage of liberated souls and thus fall down deeply into the clutches of external energy.

Some of them think that to hear about the pastimes of the Lord means to hear about His activities with the gopīs or about His pastimes like lifting the Govardhana Hill, and they have nothing to do with the Lord’s plenary expansions as the puruṣāvatāras and Their pastimes of the creation, maintenance or annihilation of the material worlds. But a pure devotee knows that there is no difference between the pastimes of the Lord, either in rāsa-līlā or in creation, maintenance or destruction of the material world. Rather, the descriptions of such activities of the Lord as the puruṣāvatāras are specifically meant for persons who are in the clutches of the external energy. Topics like the rāsa-līlā are meant for the liberated souls and not for the conditioned souls. The conditioned souls, therefore, must hear with appreciation and devotion the Lord’s pastimes in relationship with the external energy, and such acts are as good as the hearing of rāsa-līlā in the liberated stage. A conditioned soul should not imitate the activities of liberated souls. Lord Śrī Caitanya never indulged in hearing the rāsa-līlā with ordinary men.

In the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam, the science of God, the first nine cantos prepare the ground for hearing the Tenth Canto. This will be further explained in the last chapter of this canto. In the Third Canto it will be more explicit. A pure devotee of the Lord, therefore, must begin reading or hearing Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam from the very beginning, and not from the Tenth Canto. We have several times been requested by some so-called devotees to take up the Tenth Canto immediately, but we have refrained from such an action because we wish to present Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam as the science of Godhead and not as a sensuous understanding for the conditioned souls. This is forbidden by such authorities as Śrī Brahmājī. By reading and hearing Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam as a scientific presentation, the conditioned souls will gradually be promoted to the higher status of transcendental knowledge after being freed from the illusory energy based on sense enjoyment."

Atmananda Dasa - December 19, 2018 5:03 pm

21 hours ago, krsna caitanya das said:

In honor of Gita Jayanti, I thought I might throw out some Bhagavad Gita verses that support the idea of not falling from the spiritual world:

Bg 4.9 — One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna.

Bg 8.15 — After attaining Me, the great souls, who are yogīs in devotion, never return to this temporary world, which is full of miseries, because they have attained the highest perfection.

Bg 8.16 — From the highest planet in the material world down to the lowest, all are places of misery wherein repeated birth and death take place. But one who attains to My abode, O son of Kuntī, never takes birth again.

Bg 15.6 — That supreme abode of Mine is not illumined by the sun or moon, nor by fire or electricity. Those who reach it never return to this material world. 

Would all of these be considered good evidence?

Are there other Bhagavad-gita verses that could be used as support?

In addition to all the Gita verses you have offered Baladeva Vidyabhusana offers this verse from Gita as well in his Govinda Bhasya, quoted above in this thread. So I would guess the verses you have offered are all good evidence, given Baladeva Vidyabhusana has also cited them in this regard.

Bg 7.17

teṣāṁ jñānī nitya-yukta
eka-bhaktir viśiṣyate
priyo hi jñānino ’tyartham
ahaṁ sa ca mama priyaḥ

Synonyms: 

teṣām — out of them; jñānī — one in full knowledge; nitya-yuktaḥ — always engaged; eka — only; bhaktiḥ — in devotional service; viśiṣyate — is special; priyaḥ — very dear; hi — certainly; jñāninaḥ— to the person in knowledge; atyartham — highly; aham — I am; saḥ — he; ca — also; mama — to Me; priyaḥ — dear.

Translation: 

Of these, the one who is in full knowledge and who is always engaged in pure devotional service is the best. For I am very dear to him, and he is dear to Me.

Here is a statement from the purport of AC Bhaktivedanta Prabhupada:

He who is situated in pure knowledge of the transcendence of the Supreme Personality of God is so protected in devotional service that material contamination cannot touch him.

Atmananda Dasa - December 19, 2018 6:21 pm

22 hours ago, Dulal Chandra dasa said:

This verse and commentary from Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam by Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura speaks to the significance of sambanda-jnana.

Dulal Chandra Prabhu where do you get a good translation of VCT’s Srimad Bhagavatam commentary? I would also like to read this. 

Here is another possible implication of the fallvada:

There is an issue with trying to study the sambhanda jnana given in the Srimad Bhagavatam that is available in English (The BBT version) When I read the commentary of Srila Prabhupada it is difficult for me to get a clear understanding either because of how Srila Prabhupada has written or how the purports and translations were rendered by the editors. (Or both) Also there is my own my own misconceptions that I bring as a reader. I find myself doubting the authenticity of the text.

Maybe it is better to just not read the BBT Srimad Bhagavatam. Because as long it is accepted as an authoritative text then this misunderstanding will continue to trouble the reader and will have to be sorted out. Maybe it’s too much to ask of neophyte bhaktas to have to go back to the source texts and try to figure out what Srila Prabhupada is trying to say, when he is using a preaching strategy or what was maybe an editing choice that makes the text inaccurate.

Maybe another implication of the fallvada would be that a new Srimad Bhagavatam translation and commentary is needed. And if so who is going to produce it? I really personally feel the need for such a text. 

Below are some examples from a section of the Srimad Bhagavatam where the  sambbanda jnana is instructed.  

 From the purports SB 3.26.23-24 and 3.26.26

”In the beginning, from clear consciousness, or the pure state of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, the first contamination sprang up. This is called false ego, or identification of the body as self. The living entity exists in the natural state of Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but he has marginal independence, and this allows him to forget Kṛṣṇa. Originally, pure Kṛṣṇa consciousness exists, but because of misuse of marginal independence there is a chance of forgetting Kṛṣṇa. This is exhibited in actual life; there are many instances in which someone acting in Kṛṣṇa consciousness suddenly changes. In the Upaniṣads it is therefore stated that the path of spiritual realization is just like the sharp edge of a razor. The example is very appropriate. One shaves his cheeks with a sharp razor very nicely, but as soon as his attention is diverted from the activity, he immediately cuts his cheek because he mishandles the razor.

Not only must one come to the stage of pure Kṛṣṇa consciousness, but one must also be very careful. Any inattentiveness or carelessness may cause falldown. This falldown is due to false ego. From the status of pure consciousness, the false ego is born because of misuse of independence. We cannot argue about why false ego arises from pure consciousness. Factually, there is always the chance that this will happen, and therefore one has to be very careful. False ego is the basic principle for all material activities, which are executed in the modes of material nature. As soon as one deviates from pure Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he increases his entanglement in material reaction. The entanglement of materialism is the material mind, and from this material mind, the senses and material organs become manifest.”

”One great ācārya, Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura, has lamented that when one deviates from pure consciousness of Vāsudeva, or Kṛṣṇa consciousness, he becomes entangled in material activities. The exact words he uses are, sat-saṅga chāḍi’ kainu asate vilāsa, te-kāraṇe lāgila ye karma-bandha-phāṅsa: “I have given up the pure status of consciousness because I wanted to enjoy in the temporary, material manifestation; therefore I have been entangled in the network of actions and reactions.”

Dulal Chandra Dasa - December 20, 2018 8:44 pm

"where do you get a good translation of VCT’s Srimad Bhagavatam commentary"

Ras Bihari Lal and Sons should have the complete set. 

Haridasa - January 9, 2019 12:17 pm

"Similarly, if one think Krsna's eternal associates are subject to offending and rejecting him, one also commits dhama aparadha by way of criticizing its residents."

Would this also be considered Vaisnava aparadha?

Swami B.V. Padmanabha - January 9, 2019 2:54 pm

2 hours ago, haridasa said:

"Similarly, if one think Krsna's eternal associates are subject to offending and rejecting him, one also commits dhama aparadha by way of criticizing its residents."

Would this also be considered Vaisnava aparadha?

Indeed a very powerful one.

Krsna Caitanya Das - March 12, 2019 4:05 pm

I was reading about prema the other day and it seems that according to Brs. that a main characteristic of prema is that it will not decrease. This may be obvious, but I had not thought of it like this before. I guess at the stage of bhava one could possibly fall down, but not prema. Neither the worst nor the best circumstances could distract one's prema for the Lord. Here is a section of Brs. that supports this idea:

|3.2.81||
atha premā –
hrāsa-śaṅkā-cyutā baddha-mūlā premeyam ucyate |
asyānubhāvāḥ kathitās tatra vyasanitādayaḥ ||81||

Translation: When sambhrama-prīti becomes firmly fixed, with
no doubt that it will decrease, it is called prema. The anubhāvas
are such things as complete attachment to the Lord.

Jīva Gosvāmī’s Commentary
When this sambhrama-prīti becomes very fixed (baddha-mūlā)
and one is convinced that it can never decrease, it is called prema.

||3.2.82||
yathā – 

aṇimādi-saukhya-vīcīm avīci-duḥkha-pravāhaṁ vā |
naya māṁ vikṛtir na hi me tvat-padakamalāvalambasya ||82||

Translation: Since I have taken shelter of Your lotus feet, You
may throw me into the waves of suffering in the hell called
Avīci, or throw me in the waves of happiness by bestowing siddhis like aṇima, but I will not change my prema for You.

Jīva Gosvāmī’s Commentary
These are the words of Bali after being punished and receiving
the mercy of the Lord. Avīci is one type of hell.

||3.2.83||
yathā vā –
ruṣājvalita-buddhinā bhṛgu-sutena śapto ’py alaṁ
mayā hṛta-jagat-trayo ’py atanukaitavaṁ tanvatā |
vinindya kṛta-bandhano ’py uraga-rāja-pāśair balād
arajyata sa mayy aho dviguṇam eva vairocaniḥ ||83||

Translation: Another example:
Though Bali was severely cursed by Śukrācarya, who was flaming with anger, and though I stole from Bali the three worlds
while playing a trick on him as Vāmanāvatāra, and though I
then criticized him for not being able to fulfill his promise, and
finally bound him up with ropes made of snakes, his attachment to me increased two-fold.

Jīva Gosvāmī’s Commentary 

These are the words of Kṛṣṇa to Uddhava after returning from the
abode of Bali. 

Dulal Chandra Dasa - March 12, 2019 5:10 pm

Krishna Caitanya Prabhu,

When copying and posting from references in Balarāma Font, you can easily reformat to unicode here;

https://www.vedabase.com/tools/balarama-to-utf8.html

Simply copy into the window the text and click on convert, then highlight text, copy and paste.

In service, 
Dulal Chandra dasa

Atmananda Dasa - June 12, 2019 2:27 pm

In this podcast academics and a bishop discuss how the ideas of original sin and the need for redemption appear in secular society. I found it interesting to hear how deeply rooted these ideas are in the western mind. 

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/in-our-time-religion/id463701224?i=1000097068487