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Tattva-viveka

The falling in love of the infallible Lord

Brahma Samhita Das - December 25, 2018 2:20 pm

In the infinite abode far above the heavens, 
the Lord of lords in his four armed form preside,
where the great devotees with four arms reside.

There, neither the Lord, nor the zillions attending his will as their command,
is in need of a helping hand.

Swami - December 25, 2018 2:27 pm

"When God falls in love." A very curious topic. 

Brahma Samhita Das - December 25, 2018 5:55 pm

Yes Gurumaharaj, it is your topic!. Here just reflecting some thoughts that come while listening to your divine talks. 

 I heard the other day you said with so much feeling, (paraphrasing) "there is so much talking about the pain devotees experience in the separation from Krishna, but what about Krishnas feelings of separation for his devotees!?"

hearing this , the famous proverb "a friend in need is a friend indeed" came to my mind but with an alternative meaning.

Its general meaning being "the friend that help you when you need is a friend indeed" But in the context of this topic from the angle of Sakhya , it can also be a description of Sri Krishnas friendliness: "That friend with needs is a friend indeed"  Krishnas needs being an invitation to serve him in friendship. 

That friend with needs is a friend indeed!, and all those that can see those needs in the light of their love for him and is their to answer to them is his friends, indeed!

considering that Sri Krishnas desires are infinite and so is Sri Radha`s capacity to satisfy them, the needs that arise in their love, must also be infinite.

Swami - December 25, 2018 5:59 pm

gadhopakari smrti dah priyanam

Brahma Samhita Das - December 25, 2018 6:12 pm

wow what a verse!

Jaya Gurumaharaj!

Brihad Bhagavatamrta
Part 1 Chapter 7 Text 128

TRANSLATION
One may want to feel that separation again, and may indeed feel distressed if one cannot. Thus a person who can remind one of a beloved not present is considered the most sincere and helpful friend.

Swami - December 25, 2018 6:26 pm

It is notable that while the Goswami granthas were very influential in focusing the sampradaya on madhurya-rati, the first of their works, Sanatana Goswami’s Brihat-bhagavatamrita, does so through two separate puranic-like narratives in which sakhya-rati plays a significant role.In the first narrative sage Narada, who is situated in sakhya rasa mixed with dasya rasa, interviews various paradigmatic figures representing a gradation of spiritual ideals culminating in gopi-bhava. In the final chapter we find Narada in Dvaraka, where he inadvertently reminds Krsna of his Vraja-lila and this in turn creates what appears to be an emotional disturbance for Krsna, plunging him into the low tide of an ocean of love in separation for his Vraja-lila milk maidens. Taking note of Narada’s remorse, Krsna informs him that in fact he who reminds him of the gopis’ love for him is his best friend—gadhopakari smrti dah priyanam—for their ideal of devotion is supreme. In response Narada invokes names of Krsna such as Gopa-gopijana-priya in the ecstasy of sankirtana.  

Note also that Narada is a partial manifestation of Krsna’s brahmin friend Madhumangala, a priyanarma sakha mindful of Krsna’s love for Radha. Thus in Krsna’s assurance to Narada at the apex of this concluding section of the Brihad-bhagavatamrta’s first canto he subtly pays respect to the supporting role of sakhya-rati influenced by madhurya-rati—priyanarma sakhya-rati—in pointing to the zenith of spiritual intimacy realized in madhurya-rati. In other words, it is Narada, a partial manifestation of the priyanarma sakhya Madhuamangala, who reminds Krsna of the measure of the Vraja gopi’s love for him—as do and more typically so the priyanarma sakhas in Vraja–resulting in Krsna’s testimony as to madhurya-rati’s place on the ladder of intimacy in bhakti rasa. 

Brahma Samhita Das - December 26, 2018 2:47 pm

A Priyanarma sakha´s ideal of devotion is supreme because of it ´s self-forgetful nature?

This is all very intriguing!

Concerned with Krishnas urgent need for Madhurya rasa, the culmination of a Priyanarma Sakhas friendship union seems to be that of separation in union, since they assist Krishnas union in separation with the Gopis, which results in Krishna being carried away in thoughts of them.

and vice versa, during the night they experience union in separation, since they are so identifyed with Krsnas longing for the night.

is it so?

Swami - December 26, 2018 2:58 pm

It is the most intimate form of friendship because, among other aspects of friendship, it includes the capacity to empathize with and in this sense assist in the parakiya romance of Radha and Krsna.

Brahma Samhita Das - December 26, 2018 5:33 pm

Jaya Gurumaharaj, wonderful clarification.

I´ve have heard that in Gaura lila, all rasas confluence in the dasya rasa service to Mahaprabhu.

Playing the role of a brahmin, his external behaviour is maryada.

To establish the yuga dharma he soon take sannyas too teach the world with his Acharya lila, walking his own talk.

yad yad acarati sresthas
tat tad evetaro janah
sa yat pramanam kurute
lokas tad anuvartate

As Ramachandra perfected the role of a King, Mahaprabhu perfected the role of a Brahmin Sannyasi. That ofcourse excludes to serve him in Madhurya rasa.

But what about Sakhya rasa? That would not interfere with his Acharya lila in any way!

 Svarupa Damodar and Raya Ramananda are identified as Lalita and Vishaka Sakhis. Do they serve Mahaprabhu in dasya aswell ? 

Mahaprabhus internal life is focused on tasting Madhuriya rasa, and so his distribution is also focused in the same way.

but what about the priyanarma Sakhas? how do their service take form in Gaura lila? Are they all in Nitais camp?

Swami - December 26, 2018 5:46 pm

Service to Gaurasundar is in a type of friendly or intimate dasya rasa and will have a corresponding rasa in Krsna lila of sakhya or madhurya. We do not play herding cows with Gaura Kishore. We worship Krsna with him in kirtana etc. 

Brahma Samhita Das - December 26, 2018 9:35 pm

ok friendly dasya, ofcourse. as is the ideal connection with the Acharya

ok Gurumaharaj, no play herding cows with Gaurakisore!

, but Nitai and his crews nagar sankirtan sure resemble the Gopas moods in play herding! (without the cows ofcourse )

and Prabhupada`s "external" form of preaching Gaura vani do hint of his internal life, right?

and so do your divine grace`s

please correct me if I am wrong
 

Swami - December 26, 2018 9:50 pm

Gaura is guru. Regardless of our relationship with Krsna, we are servants of our guru in our sadhaka deha. Gaura lila is one in which siddhas play the role of sadhakas. 

Descriptions of the Nityananda-rama’s intimate associates in both Caitanya Bhagavata and the early 17^th century Sri Caitanya Caritamrta are colorful. Unlike the Vrndavana Goswamis, who exhibited a standard of dress and decorum in their perfected sadhaka-dehas of Gaura-lila that was clearly distinct from that of their meditative manjari siddha dehas of Krsna-lila, the dvadasa gopalas of Gaura-lila, much like Nityananda himself, wore their sakhya-rati on their sadhaka dehas in some measure. Krsnadasa Kaviraja describes them as bearing buffalo horns, herding sticks, adorned in cowherd dress and crowned with the plumes of peacocks. Similarly Vrndavana dasa describes them as decorated with bangles, ankle-bells, and garlands of gunja beads, bearing sticks, flutes, horns, and ropes in their hands. However, it appears from artistic depictions of their time that such dress was only occasional. The worshipful painting of parama parama-patita-pavana Uddharana Datta that adorns his altar in Saptagama, West Bengal depicts him in a more traditional sadhaka deha, head shaved, adorned with urdhva pundra tilak, kanti mala necklace, his limbs, torso and forehead marked with impressions of Krsna’s name and lotus feet, and dressed in white cloth with tulasi japa mala in hand. Furthermore, despite descriptions of the gopalas’ eccentric dress and decorum, Vrndavana das also makes clear their accompanying saintliness. “They had no engagement other than nama-sankirtana. . . Symptoms of Krishna-prema—tears, trembling, and horripilation—were constantly visible on their bodies.” Typically the sattvika-bhavas of tears and horripilation can be observed from time to time in the sadhaka-dehas of intermediate and superlative bhaktas, whereas other sattvika bhavas more typically manifest in their internal, meditative siddha-dehas. Indeed, all of Sri Rupa’s examples of the manifestation of sattvika-bhavas in his Bhaktrasamrta-sindhu involve siddha-dehas in Krsna lila. This of course makes the multiple and intensified ecstatic transformations of Sri Caitanya—Krsna in sadhaka-deha—all the more rare and extraordinary, as it does to a lesser extent the ecstasy of the dvadasa gopalas—simultaneous trembling, weeping, horripilation, immobilization, and so on. Furthermore, much of their unconventional behavior was not possible for ordinary persons or developing sadhakas—chasing and riding on the backs of Bengal tigers, playing with cobras, remaining submerged in water for more than twenty-four hours, and so on. 

Swami - December 26, 2018 10:40 pm

Uddharana Datta was initiated by Nityananda Prabhu, who gave him that name. Previously he was named Dvikara. But Uddharana did not wrestle with Nitai. Sometimes his sakhya rati for Krsna Balarama would peek out into his sadhaka deha here and there, but his relationship with Balarama in the form of Nityananda Rama was one of guru disciple. One must serve Bhagavan in consideration of the role or mood he is in. In Gaura lila, Gaura and Nitai are the samasti gurus of a lila in which siddhas play the role of sadhakas. Sadhana siddha bhumi, that is Nadiya.

Brahma Samhita Das - December 27, 2018 9:51 pm

jay Gurumaharaj... how amazing

is it this painting of parama parama-patita-pavana Uddharana Datta you mentioned?

The Vrindavan Goswamis sadhaka dehas attentive perfection of practice and decorum where  a reflection of their Siddha dehas Parakiya Bhava, attending to the external dharma of a renunciant to perfection as if their husband, so he (dharma) dont suspect their internal paramour lover. 

SSM have mentioned something like that.

While the Sakha siddhas play of Sadhaka roles sometimes are forgetful of their role as such and gets carried away in their Bhava that need no hiding.

alowing us to have darshan of their colorful Avadhuta pastimes.

is it so?

Swami - December 27, 2018 10:12 pm

Generally one's bhava is concealed. So the "parakiya" of the sadhaka is his or her faithfulness to dharma or one could say "vaidhi bhakti," thus concealing his or her inner prema dharma or raga. Still, in some circumstances tat inner life may show itself to those who know what to look for. And in special cases, such as in the lives of Gaura's parsadas,  it may shine forth in plain sight from time to time. Hence we know who they are in Krsna lila. 

Brahma Samhita Das - December 28, 2018 4:44 pm

Long ago I heard from you a class where you compared the spirit of challenge we can see in Prabhupadas preaching with a cowherds sub-rasa of a chivalry, which made very much sense to me. It is indeed fascinating that the sakhya undercurrent of our gaudiya tradition made "Hare Krishna" a household word. While Mahaprabhu and the Goswamis where preaching to the elite of society, Nityananda-Rama and Haridas Thakur went to all the fallen souls. In more recent times Srila BH Bon Maharaj, a Manjari in his Siddha form, to went to the elite of society while Srila Prabhupada went to the fallen souls of the big apple and lived with them and loved them until they became devotees. 

and how important your service is Gurumaharaj, because without it one can miss-understand the broad nature of Srila Prabhupadas preaching in many ways!